Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / The J.Lo-Brett Goldstein Situation, the Dark Romance Conundrum with Nisha Sharma, and Our Thoughts on Off Campus

Transcript

The J.Lo-Brett Goldstein Situation, the Dark Romance Conundrum with Nisha Sharma, and Our Thoughts on Off Campus · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

0:04
Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio eight three one podcast,
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Speaker 1: brought to you by the romance publisher eight three one Stories.
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Speaker 1: We're your hosts, Sinjon Obasker and Tyler McCall, and we're
0:14
Speaker 1: so excited to talk everything romance, from the novels and
0:18
Speaker 1: the tropes, to the book to screen adaptations, and of
0:21
Speaker 1: course the drama of it all. You know, unpacking what
0:24
Speaker 1: the genre says about who we are and how we love.
0:28
Speaker 2: So soanj My favorite thing in the world happened this week,
0:30
Speaker 2: which is rumors of co star relationships started bubbling up
0:35
Speaker 2: in this world.
0:37
Speaker 1: Are we talking about Brett Goldstein and Jlo?
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Speaker 2: We are We're talking about Breg Goldstein and Jlo In
0:42
Speaker 2: the long time honored tradition of romance co stars having
0:47
Speaker 2: rumored or real relationships offscreen. This one is bubbling up,
0:51
Speaker 2: and I'm wondering how we feel about it. First of all,
0:53
Speaker 2: my understanding is that Brett Goldstein wrote this movie with
0:56
Speaker 2: Jlo in mind, having had like a lifelong crush on Jlo. Yes,
1:00
Speaker 2: to which I say, Manifestation King like, yeah, that works.
1:05
Speaker 2: I would love to write a rom com for me
1:08
Speaker 2: and Adam Driver.
1:09
Speaker 1: Would you like, yeah, did you see those passages from
1:13
Speaker 1: Lena Dunham's memoir Girl. I read the whole thing and
1:16
Speaker 1: I still would. So that's between me and my therapist. Hey,
1:20
Speaker 1: that's commitment, and I love that for you.
1:22
Speaker 2: But I love that for him, and I would love
1:24
Speaker 2: it even more if it resulted.
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Speaker 1: In a real romance, you know, Okay, I controversially think
1:29
Speaker 1: that like Jlo and Ben Affleck are going to be
1:30
Speaker 1: stuck in this like twisted little no of course, you
1:35
Speaker 1: know how like everyone is always joking about how Jacob
1:37
Speaker 1: Loordi is always going to go back to Olivia Jade
1:38
Speaker 1: no matter who else. Yes, he states, I feel sort
1:41
Speaker 1: of like that with Jlo and Ben Affleck, where I'm like,
1:43
Speaker 1: you will always be at each other's orbits in a
1:45
Speaker 1: way that is like unavoidable. But I love the chemistry
1:49
Speaker 1: that they've been having, like Jlo and Brett Goldstein, because
1:53
Speaker 1: so many people have been like this is a quintessential
1:55
Speaker 1: Leo relationship, Like this is what a Leo needs. A
1:58
Speaker 1: man who is so devoted that he has seen her
2:01
Speaker 1: entire filmography and can quote it from memory and answer
2:04
Speaker 1: questions about it, like her expression of surprise when he
2:07
Speaker 1: started answering really detailed questions about every rom com she'd
2:11
Speaker 1: ever made. Yeah, and his like, yeah, I am a
2:14
Speaker 1: scholar and this actually was so satisfying. It was so good.
2:19
Speaker 1: As a LEO, I will tell you that would work
2:21
Speaker 1: for me.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, real, real, Like I immediately would be like, uh, yeah,
2:26
Speaker 2: let's go home.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah exactly, And I hope they did, and I
2:30
Speaker 1: hope they did.
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Speaker 2: Ben and Jennifer are the Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton
2:36
Speaker 2: of our time for sure, for sure. Like I think
2:41
Speaker 2: that they're doing it kind of on purpose that way,
2:43
Speaker 2: like that's fine, But I love this as a side.
2:46
Speaker 1: Quest for her. Yeah, me too. And I think that
2:48
Speaker 1: Brett Goldstein's devotion is sincere.
2:50
Speaker 2: Here's the question that comes up a lot like shades
2:53
Speaker 2: of Clenn Powell and Sidney Sweeney promoting anyone but you,
2:57
Speaker 2: which like I got into that, like they had really
3:00
Speaker 2: good chemistry.
3:01
Speaker 1: I am like curious about if you found that chemistry
3:05
Speaker 1: to be staged or not. And I'm asking this because
3:07
Speaker 1: we had the recent incident of people being like super
3:10
Speaker 1: excited about Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson and that was
3:12
Speaker 1: like quite obviously a fake relationship, and then they came
3:14
Speaker 1: out later and we're like, oh, yeah, we absolutely did
3:16
Speaker 1: that for movie promotion. I'm pretty sure there was like
3:18
Speaker 1: a public statement where they were like there was, which
3:21
Speaker 1: is devastating because I was like, oh.
3:23
Speaker 2: I love this for them. You want those two people
3:25
Speaker 2: to find love and like the idea of like Liam
3:27
Speaker 2: Neeson and Pamela Anderson. It was just really I did
3:29
Speaker 2: feel bamboozled by that. Yeah, and I think they were
3:32
Speaker 2: banking on that.
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Speaker 1: But I think the thing is that increasingly it feels
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Speaker 1: like it is a press strategy to be like, We're
3:38
Speaker 1: going to sell on screen chemistry by showing you off
3:40
Speaker 1: screen chemistry. The reality is that those two things are
3:43
Speaker 1: not necessarily the same. I actually think that, for example,
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Speaker 1: Emily Bater and Tom Blyth had better chemistry offscreen than
3:48
Speaker 1: they did on screen. I mean, I think Emily Batter
3:51
Speaker 1: has chemistry with the Wall, yeah totally. But I think
3:56
Speaker 1: I saw like mutualistic chemistry more in some of their
3:58
Speaker 1: press tour than they did on screen. And I think
4:01
Speaker 1: there have been other instances of that where like off
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Speaker 1: screen chemistry and on screen chemistry do not match up.
4:07
Speaker 2: It's interesting I was talking with a friend of mine
4:09
Speaker 2: from acting class about chemistry because it is this thing
4:13
Speaker 2: that you can't really control or account for, like real
4:17
Speaker 2: chemistry between two people. You can find two very attractive
4:19
Speaker 2: people who like each other very much and they don't
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Speaker 2: have chemistry and it doesn't spark on screen, and it's like,
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Speaker 2: what is that element?
4:26
Speaker 3: Right?
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Speaker 2: So, to a certain extent, when people are faking it
4:30
Speaker 2: off screen, I do feel like you can tell because
4:33
Speaker 2: it has an element that's like it doesn't feel real,
4:36
Speaker 2: which is like the Glen and Sydney of it all right,
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Speaker 2: Like I didn't think that that was a real relationship,
4:41
Speaker 2: but I enjoyed seeing them play around with it versus
4:44
Speaker 2: like sometimes you see two people interact with each other
4:47
Speaker 2: who were co stars in real life, and you're like,
4:49
Speaker 2: I hope you fucked.
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Speaker 1: I really hope you fucked. It's none of my business.
4:54
Speaker 1: I don't ship real people. I practice ethics in real people.
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Speaker 1: It's just very responsible, you tyler.
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Speaker 2: But like, for example, have I ever stopped thinking about
5:04
Speaker 2: Oscar Isaac and Jessica Chestain on the Venice red carpet
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Speaker 2: with him like kissing her arm.
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Speaker 1: No, I've never stopped thinking about it, or her follow
5:11
Speaker 1: up interviews where she was like, I actually cannot be
5:14
Speaker 1: around Oscar for a while because that was such an
5:16
Speaker 1: intense experience for me. Yeah, I love him dearly and
5:19
Speaker 1: he's my friend, but like I cannot be around him
5:22
Speaker 1: right now. And I was like, yeah, totally platonic coworker
5:25
Speaker 1: thing to say. Yeah, and I believe it.
5:27
Speaker 2: Have you seen scenes from a marriage by the way,
5:29
Speaker 2: because it's not a rom com?
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Speaker 1: No, Okay, I watch it. It's a lot.
5:32
Speaker 2: I hope you like seeing your parents get divorced for
5:35
Speaker 2: five hours straight, because that's what it is, you know
5:37
Speaker 2: what I mean. But there are a couple sex scenes
5:40
Speaker 2: in that that I literally I also if I had
5:42
Speaker 2: filmed that with someone couldn't be around them for a.
5:44
Speaker 1: While, I'd be like, actually, we need to take a break. Yeah,
5:48
Speaker 1: I'd be like, this friendship has taken a strange turn.
5:50
Speaker 1: He like licks it. I can't talk about it. I can't.
5:53
Speaker 1: I'm like, I actually think I've seen that gift on Tumblr.
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Speaker 2: Oh I'm sure it did, absolutely use on Tumblr. Yeah, okay,
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Speaker 2: it wit triple platinum on Tumbler for sure. Like they're
6:03
Speaker 2: not even naked, and it's like the hottest thing you've
6:05
Speaker 2: ever seen.
6:05
Speaker 1: Oh anyway, I mean, of course, because that's like Oscar
6:07
Speaker 1: Isaac is like clinically incapable of not doing that for
6:10
Speaker 1: whatever I am. It's just it's also incredibly talented. But
6:14
Speaker 1: this actually speaking of couples who I'm like, oh, something
6:17
Speaker 1: definitely happened. I think about Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson
6:20
Speaker 1: during the height of their rom com Press tour. I
6:24
Speaker 1: want to read something from their press store because I
6:26
Speaker 1: think it's, Oh my god, it's diabolical. Basically, Kate, I
6:30
Speaker 1: don't even know what the context.
6:31
Speaker 3: Of this is.
6:32
Speaker 1: This is just learning around the ether for ages. Kate says,
6:36
Speaker 1: I seen you brush your teeth in the morning. I
6:38
Speaker 1: know what your body odor smells like. I can smell
6:40
Speaker 1: you from five blocks away. I know all your different
6:42
Speaker 1: style kisses, and I know all your different style of
6:44
Speaker 1: the hugs. If I were walking down a street and
6:47
Speaker 1: some guy came up and slapped my ass, if it
6:49
Speaker 1: were you, I would know it was you.
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Speaker 3: What?
6:52
Speaker 1: And then and then Matthew McConaughey says, well, you know what,
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Speaker 1: if I were blindfolded and told to walk over and
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Speaker 1: slap ten asses, I would know which one was yours.
7:01
Speaker 1: What I have to I have to this is I
7:05
Speaker 1: have to go.
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Speaker 2: I don't even blush, and I'm blushing like I can't buy. Yes,
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Speaker 2: I have heard less romantic like marital vows. That's crazy.
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Speaker 1: Yes, that's it's just so intense where like I mean,
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Speaker 1: I think both in the case of the Oscar Isaac
7:21
Speaker 1: situation and in the Jessica Chastein situation, they're people who
7:24
Speaker 1: are communicating that they have this intense depth of intimacy.
7:28
Speaker 1: I think it blurs the lines between performance and authenticity
7:31
Speaker 1: and like what becomes real by re enacting things with
7:34
Speaker 1: one another over and over and over, which like does
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Speaker 1: actually happen As we know in the really iconic case
7:40
Speaker 1: of Ryan Gosling and Eva Mendez, was it Eva or
7:43
Speaker 1: Ryan who like looked at the other person and was like,
7:45
Speaker 1: we're play acting at being a family in place between
7:48
Speaker 1: the pines? And I realized all of a sudden, I
7:50
Speaker 1: only ever wanted to do this with her or him. Yeah,
7:53
Speaker 1: I guess I'm really curious to see if the on
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Speaker 1: screen chemistry that we've perceived between j Lo and Britt
7:59
Speaker 1: Goldstein and in the lead up to their movie office
8:02
Speaker 1: romance actually ends up translating into on screen chemistry that
8:07
Speaker 1: pays off. I guess we will have to see. The
8:09
Speaker 1: movie came out on June fifth. Obviously, Tyler and I
8:13
Speaker 1: will be tuned in, will be watching, and will be
8:15
Speaker 1: recording back with our thoughts when we have them. But
8:19
Speaker 1: up next we're gonna putot into a little bit more
8:21
Speaker 1: of a scholarly look at dark romance and reproductive coercion, which,
8:27
Speaker 1: for those who are not totally in the no, dark
8:29
Speaker 1: romance is a subgenre of romance that is kind of
8:32
Speaker 1: ambiguously defined but refers to stuff that is a little
8:36
Speaker 1: bit intense in terms of its ability to play with
8:41
Speaker 1: themes of consent and power and intimacy. So you'll see
8:46
Speaker 1: kidnappings and abductions, you'll see mafia men, you will see
8:50
Speaker 1: stalking romances. This is the stuff that plays with the
8:54
Speaker 1: more intense themes that romance tends to have. It's a
8:58
Speaker 1: lot of the times contemporary romance, but like an offshoot,
9:01
Speaker 1: and it's more predominantly available in indie publishing context, though
9:05
Speaker 1: increasingly dark romance is starting to be published in mainstream
9:10
Speaker 1: publishing houses. I'm thinking about like Lights Out by Nevessa
9:14
Speaker 1: Allen or Brynn Weaver's work might be good examples for
9:17
Speaker 1: people who are like just getting into that space. I
9:20
Speaker 1: recently read ali Oleander's books and they're not quite dark,
9:24
Speaker 1: but they are in this space of playing with more
9:27
Speaker 1: intense themes of sexuality, power, and consent. And we are
9:31
Speaker 1: so so excited to have Nisha Sharma on to talk
9:33
Speaker 1: about this with us. She is sort of the perfect
9:36
Speaker 1: person to talk about this with, not just because she
9:39
Speaker 1: is getting a PhD in English and social justice, but
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Speaker 1: because she wrote about this very recently on her substack,
9:44
Speaker 1: which you can read. Nisha. Hi, We're so excited to
9:57
Speaker 1: have you.
9:58
Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here.
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Speaker 1: How are I'm good.
10:01
Speaker 4: I just want to take credit for the fact that
10:04
Speaker 4: both of you guys met each other in person at
10:06
Speaker 4: my book dinner.
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Speaker 1: That is true true. Oh my gosh, you're like our matchmaker. Wow.
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Speaker 4: I needed to go on the record and say that.
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Speaker 1: What a start.
10:17
Speaker 2: But I want to dive in and ask you about
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Speaker 2: your graduate paper because it is sort of the impetus
10:25
Speaker 2: for the substack that you wrote that sort of summarizes
10:27
Speaker 2: your work for us who are not in graduate programs.
10:31
Speaker 2: But I wanted to ask kind of what inspired that
10:34
Speaker 2: as a topic and why you wanted to dive into that,
10:38
Speaker 2: and if you could explain it a little bit in
10:40
Speaker 2: Layman's terms.
10:41
Speaker 4: To give a little bit of background. I have a
10:44
Speaker 4: law degree, and I also have an MFA and creative writing,
10:48
Speaker 4: and I spent probably a decade of my life working
10:51
Speaker 4: in diversity equity inclusion services in corporate So I decided
10:56
Speaker 4: to go back to school to get a degree that
10:59
Speaker 4: ties it all together. So I am currently studying race
11:02
Speaker 4: and culture studies, and my focus sits at this intersection
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Speaker 4: of law, politics, and culture, specifically in romance novels. So
11:13
Speaker 4: back in nineteen eighty one, there was an author, her
11:16
Speaker 4: name is Elda Minger, and she wrote this harlequin contemporary
11:19
Speaker 4: book called Untamed Hearts. The Faded Mates podcast did a
11:24
Speaker 4: trailblazer episode with her where you kind of like really
11:28
Speaker 4: dive into her story and how she was the first
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Speaker 4: one to write about contraception on the page in romance.
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Speaker 4: The reference is so beautifully done. It's I cannot protect you,
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Speaker 4: is what the hero says. He's the one who takes
11:41
Speaker 4: control over the situation, and it's not solely reliant on
11:47
Speaker 4: the female main character in the story to be responsible
11:50
Speaker 4: for reproductive rights and access in control. And so in
11:55
Speaker 4: that scene, Minger used the term protection, and it was
12:01
Speaker 4: so subtle, but it gave permission for a lot of
12:05
Speaker 4: other authors to be like, wait a minute, this makes
12:08
Speaker 4: so much sense. Finally, it became an expectation within romance
12:13
Speaker 4: that contraception was a requirement. I can tell you this
12:17
Speaker 4: from experience because my first adult romance novel, The Takeover Effect,
12:23
Speaker 4: I didn't include the conversation about contraception until like a
12:28
Speaker 4: subtle comment like after they had sex that oh, they
12:32
Speaker 4: had discussed to this, and I got dinged so badly
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Speaker 4: by readers, like, no, you have to have the consent
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Speaker 4: regarding contraception in the beginning. You cannot have it after
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Speaker 4: the sex already occurs in the moment, like in my head,
12:48
Speaker 4: like I knew that they already had it, but like
12:50
Speaker 4: I didn't make it on the page. As a writer,
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Speaker 4: it didn't translate, but it reinforced this understanding that readers
12:57
Speaker 4: were very aware, very aware that this is requirement.
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Speaker 1: Tyler and I have been talking a lot about the
13:03
Speaker 1: obligation of romance to present some sort of biological reality
13:06
Speaker 1: or like representational reality of real sex intimacy. But why
13:12
Speaker 1: do you think that editors and people who are buying
13:15
Speaker 1: stories became so interested in this as like an explicit
13:22
Speaker 1: on page cataloged conversation that was happening.
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Speaker 4: I believe romance is such a wonderful example of a
13:29
Speaker 4: cultural artifact because it has direct communication with our socio
13:34
Speaker 4: political climate, because it's so current, it's so immediate, it
13:38
Speaker 4: engages right away, almost as if there was a responsibility
13:42
Speaker 4: to readers in a lot of ways. Now, why there's
13:45
Speaker 4: such a need for this explicit reference to contraception, I
13:49
Speaker 4: think is in part because romance is not like primarily
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Speaker 4: about like love and like the tropes and like sex.
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Speaker 4: I think it's primarily about consent. With dark Romance, It's
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Speaker 4: consent may not exist on the page itself because there
14:04
Speaker 4: is like a lot of non con or a like
14:08
Speaker 4: dub con, but it's consent with the reader, and so
14:12
Speaker 4: the reader is like themselves like engaging within this narrative.
14:18
Speaker 4: And I think in politics in general was shifting away
14:22
Speaker 4: from this equal equity culture of inclusion and moving towards
14:28
Speaker 4: controlling conservative, traditional gender roles again. And when we started
14:33
Speaker 4: to see that shift, we started to see the control
14:37
Speaker 4: the consent being pulled away in Romance as well.
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Speaker 1: The thing that is so interesting about all of this
14:43
Speaker 1: is that like, you and I both read dark romance
14:46
Speaker 1: and love dark romance novels, and none of us would
14:50
Speaker 1: qualify ourselves as conservatives or people who like aren't deeply
14:54
Speaker 1: invested in reproductive justice. Right, So, like, how do we
14:57
Speaker 1: reconcile our readerly appetites or writerly appetite since you've written
15:01
Speaker 1: dark romance as well, with like like a real trend
15:04
Speaker 1: that we see culturally.
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Speaker 4: I think this is a broader question that like doesn't
15:09
Speaker 4: just apply to like readers who are reading dark romance. Critically,
15:12
Speaker 4: why do we like books that are objectively bad? Why
15:17
Speaker 4: do we like books that are objectively like not in
15:22
Speaker 4: quotes like morally good for us? Right, Like I don't
15:25
Speaker 4: believe that books have a moral prescription, but like, these
15:29
Speaker 4: are questions that people have asked, like, why do we
15:31
Speaker 4: like dark romance when dark romance has like this very
15:36
Speaker 4: specific role that has been created for people who identify
15:40
Speaker 4: as women where they're subjugated in a lot of ways. However,
15:46
Speaker 4: what I can say is that we as authors from
15:50
Speaker 4: like an author perspective, need to further examine our role
15:55
Speaker 4: and our responsibility in a time of socio political crisis,
16:02
Speaker 4: and how are we even if we are engaging in
16:05
Speaker 4: these narratives, How are we informing our readers that, like, listen,
16:11
Speaker 4: although we have this basic understanding of consent, and although
16:16
Speaker 4: that consent is not explicitly put into the page on
16:21
Speaker 4: the page, you also have to understand the broader context
16:24
Speaker 4: of the narrative that which I'm writing. I do wonder, like,
16:28
Speaker 4: what is our responsibility?
16:30
Speaker 1: I guess the thing I'm so interested in with this
16:33
Speaker 1: is the thing? Is not the thing. Yes, we have
16:35
Speaker 1: a real world reproductive politic that is fraud, messy, incomplete,
16:40
Speaker 1: actively being litigated. Reproductive politics within the context of story, however,
16:46
Speaker 1: is like fulfilling some other Dare I say like Freudian
16:50
Speaker 1: thing of like satisfying envy, satisfying ego or like incomplete
16:56
Speaker 1: ego where control and subjugation is the like narrative shorthand
17:02
Speaker 1: for completeness, wholeness, fulfillment, salvation of some kind, And I
17:08
Speaker 1: mean obviously that has all kinds of political implications, but
17:11
Speaker 1: also on some like primal human level. Is it so
17:16
Speaker 1: hard to understand? Wow, Like this person wants me so
17:19
Speaker 1: badly that they are willing to tie themselves to me
17:23
Speaker 1: forever and ever and ever with one of the most
17:26
Speaker 1: enormous things two people can do together. They are so committed,
17:31
Speaker 1: so driven that they like transcend all of the cultural
17:35
Speaker 1: taboos and legal interventions that would suggest that like these
17:39
Speaker 1: two people must be different and apart by virtue of
17:43
Speaker 1: their autonomy to make choices about their bodies and instead
17:47
Speaker 1: are melded into one unit by the like sheer degree
17:52
Speaker 1: and depth of like obsession that exists between them.
17:55
Speaker 4: This is a key of romance. To be wanted and
17:58
Speaker 4: needed and to be loved, and to want someone and
18:01
Speaker 4: need someone and to be loved to the point where
18:03
Speaker 4: you are willing to break laws and boundaries and do
18:06
Speaker 4: these enormous things right Like that is a part of
18:10
Speaker 4: romance storytelling that's super powerful. What does that mean that
18:15
Speaker 4: we have to take away a woman's right to choose
18:19
Speaker 4: to do things to her own body based on what
18:22
Speaker 4: she wants.
18:23
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm inclined to say definitely, not like I
18:25
Speaker 1: want someone who runs a red light for me. I
18:27
Speaker 1: don't want someone who's yanking my iud out.
18:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, that's what's interesting because to me, as a
18:33
Speaker 2: reader who exists in the context of all that came before,
18:37
Speaker 2: an appeal of dark romance is that it follows everything
18:41
Speaker 2: to its logical terminal conclusion, right, like the most obsessed
18:45
Speaker 2: you can be with somebody, if you're that in love
18:47
Speaker 2: with somebody, this is the end result, right, which obviously
18:50
Speaker 2: in a way that I would not want reflected in
18:51
Speaker 2: my reality. The amount of times that I've read a
18:53
Speaker 2: dark romance have been like, if somebody did that to
18:55
Speaker 2: me in real life, I'd call the cops.
18:56
Speaker 4: That's absolutely like the normal expectation that like, yeah, like
19:00
Speaker 4: please don't come break into my house with a mask, please,
19:03
Speaker 4: for the love of God.
19:04
Speaker 2: But something that I had not considered is to your point,
19:07
Speaker 2: I go to a big box retailer now, and those
19:09
Speaker 2: are the books that are on shelves. If you're reading
19:12
Speaker 2: that not in the context of everything that you've just discussed,
19:17
Speaker 2: then yeah, it does feel more like, oh, this is
19:19
Speaker 2: like romanticized.
19:20
Speaker 1: Which is bonkers. And I think it's also like tonally
19:23
Speaker 1: like dark romance. I'm thinking about like Nobody's Baby But
19:27
Speaker 1: Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips. Everyone says they hate Secret
19:31
Speaker 1: Baby until they read Nobody's Baby But Mine. Like Secret
19:34
Speaker 1: Baby is a bonker's trope until it's in Susan Lis
19:37
Speaker 1: with Philip's hand, but like there's that thing of even
19:39
Speaker 1: that is tonally different. It's earned, like she it's earned,
19:44
Speaker 1: and the infringements on autonomy see actual consequences of any
19:50
Speaker 1: kind narratively like it's it's messy, it's subversive, and it's
19:55
Speaker 1: also like deserved, like they're like narratively in world even
20:00
Speaker 1: outside of like a broader reproductive politic, that's more complicated.
20:05
Speaker 4: What I think we need to also keep in mind
20:06
Speaker 4: is that like we are normalizing a lot of this
20:11
Speaker 4: by positioning it as a form of kink. This is
20:14
Speaker 4: a form of like of access to like a type
20:18
Speaker 4: of like sexual relationship that is okay, and we are
20:23
Speaker 4: calling it breeding kink, then we have a bigger conversation
20:28
Speaker 4: that we really need to like start to evaluate. Like
20:30
Speaker 4: in actuality, breeding kink is about enthusiastic consent from both parties.
20:34
Speaker 4: It does not have real world consequences. It is a
20:37
Speaker 4: fantastical relationship between two people who are like talking about
20:41
Speaker 4: or discussing in the context of like their sexual engagement,
20:45
Speaker 4: having a baby, wanting a baby. It doesn't require like
20:50
Speaker 4: restricting birth control and switching it out for sugar pills.
20:54
Speaker 4: And then consent happens in the moment it's happening, but
20:58
Speaker 4: in a lot of these books, it's delayed consent, which
21:01
Speaker 4: is excusing a lot of the behavior that's occurring.
21:05
Speaker 1: Truly, Fellas, is it breeding kink to deny someone reproductive autonomy?
21:11
Speaker 4: And I love dark romance. I want to end on that,
21:13
Speaker 4: like I love dark romance, but I think it can
21:15
Speaker 4: do better.
21:16
Speaker 1: That's a fair place to land. Well, thank you so
21:18
Speaker 1: much for coming on. It was so lovely to hear
21:20
Speaker 1: about your research. We so appreciate your expertise and your time. Welcome.
21:36
Speaker 1: It was so lovely to talk to nishe about dark
21:39
Speaker 1: romance and reproductive coercion. And I think I'm just really
21:42
Speaker 1: excited by the possibility of having academic and scholarly perspectives
21:46
Speaker 1: on the show of all kinds, and especially from people
21:49
Speaker 1: who like really love the romance genre and like come
21:54
Speaker 1: to it as readers as well as scholars, because I
21:56
Speaker 1: think that's a lot of what my positionality is too. Actually,
22:00
Speaker 1: speaking of having like a diversity of perspectives on the show,
22:03
Speaker 1: we have our very first listener voicemail, which I was
22:06
Speaker 1: so excited for. This first voicemail is from a listener
22:11
Speaker 1: named Lacey.
22:13
Speaker 3: Hi Sindana and Tyler. This is Lacey. So first I
22:16
Speaker 3: just want to say that I really like what you
22:18
Speaker 3: guys said about an adaptation needs to take romance seriously.
22:22
Speaker 3: The way he did rib where we did that was
22:23
Speaker 3: so incredible and that brings me my question, which is
22:27
Speaker 3: I think that off Campus did this really well. I
22:29
Speaker 3: did read the first book. I'm reading the other books now,
22:32
Speaker 3: and I think there was just a lot of care
22:33
Speaker 3: put into it. Definitely a lot of changes from the
22:35
Speaker 3: book though, which I actually really appreciated. I thought that
22:39
Speaker 3: they were actually good changes. Have you guys seen off
22:41
Speaker 3: campus or will you see off campus? And if so,
22:45
Speaker 3: you have seen it? Who is your favorite off campus
22:48
Speaker 3: hockey player?
22:48
Speaker 1: Guy?
22:49
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for your wonderful podcast. I
22:51
Speaker 3: love listening to it. I love all your wonderful, very nuanced,
22:54
Speaker 3: eloquent takes on romance, and thank you so much.
22:57
Speaker 1: Bye, Lacey. What had a fun voicemail? What a delightful question.
23:02
Speaker 2: I literally just finished Off Campus last night, so I'm
23:06
Speaker 2: prepared for this question.
23:08
Speaker 1: I mean, is Dean Delarentis Yeah, that's the correct answer. Yeah,
23:13
Speaker 1: it's Dean Delarentus. That's the correct answer.
23:15
Speaker 2: No disrespect to the other hockey boys, but like I
23:18
Speaker 2: have to say that, I was like dubious on Dean
23:20
Speaker 2: at first. I was like, I don't know about this.
23:22
Speaker 2: His hair is gnarly, shades of like early aughts happened. Yes,
23:27
Speaker 2: Like as the show went on, especially once the alley
23:29
Speaker 2: things started happening, I was like texting you, I was like,
23:31
Speaker 2: I am locked in so fast. I've never locked into
23:35
Speaker 2: something so fast before in my life.
23:37
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole show is really solid, Like I
23:39
Speaker 1: think it's a really solid watch. But episode six is
23:42
Speaker 1: when I was like, we've got something really great on
23:44
Speaker 1: our hands, Like, yeah, something truly compelling. And I think
23:47
Speaker 1: it's because it's Ali and Deane's episode.
23:49
Speaker 2: I texted a friend and I was like, do you
23:51
Speaker 2: ever watch something with chemistry so good it makes you
23:53
Speaker 2: want to run through a wall, Because like that's how
23:56
Speaker 2: I felt watching that episode. Like that casting director locked
23:59
Speaker 2: in on those chemistry reads like they were the nuclear codes,
24:02
Speaker 2: Like they take that shit so seriously. Oh, I respect that,
24:07
Speaker 2: Like shout out to the casting director. I would trust
24:09
Speaker 2: you with my life.
24:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:10
Speaker 2: So I will admit that I have not read the books.
24:12
Speaker 2: Have you read the books? I read at least the
24:15
Speaker 2: first four or five like very early days. I don't
24:18
Speaker 2: even think I was online at that point in any
24:20
Speaker 2: sort of public way.
24:21
Speaker 1: What a beautiful way to live. Yeah, once upon a time,
24:24
Speaker 1: I blew through them in like less than a week,
24:26
Speaker 1: Like they go down easy. I would say, I'm not
24:28
Speaker 1: going to say that they're like my favorite by any
24:31
Speaker 1: short of the imagination, but I think that they serve
24:33
Speaker 1: a purpose. And like for me, the feeling was that
24:37
Speaker 1: if I was like sixteen or seventeen, and I had
24:40
Speaker 1: like my fantasy imagination of what college is like, I
24:43
Speaker 1: might see these books and be like, oh, this is
24:45
Speaker 1: the dream sequence of a high schooler's idea of what
24:48
Speaker 1: college could be totally, And so from that perspective, I
24:52
Speaker 1: think it's really satisfying. Like one of the descriptions I
24:55
Speaker 1: kept giving of the show is like high school musical
24:57
Speaker 1: with sex scenes. Uh huh, where which it does? He's accurate, weirdly, Yeah,
25:02
Speaker 1: because especially we're literally leading up to a spring musical
25:05
Speaker 1: or showcase or whatever. It's it's like beat for meat
25:08
Speaker 1: in some ways. How does this show diverge from the books?
25:12
Speaker 1: Do you remember enough? I don't remember individual plot beats enough.
25:15
Speaker 1: People have talked a lot about how in the book,
25:17
Speaker 1: there's a hands off rule, and in the show that's
25:21
Speaker 1: kind of cut for like feminism reasons. I'm not really
25:23
Speaker 1: sure that was necessary, but like it was altered. But
25:26
Speaker 1: by and large, I didn't come out of the show
25:29
Speaker 1: being like, wow, that was conspicuously missing. They made more
25:33
Speaker 1: additions and alterations to the tone and dialogue than they
25:37
Speaker 1: did to like actual events of the plot.
25:40
Speaker 2: I would say I was really impressed by how the
25:44
Speaker 2: show handled touchy sensitive issues Like, Yeah, the whole sexual
25:48
Speaker 2: assault plot line I thought was really well handled. Not
25:51
Speaker 2: that I'm like shocked, but not every show handles that
25:55
Speaker 2: stuff really well.
25:56
Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to handle.
25:57
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, his storyline with his dad like really intense.
26:01
Speaker 2: I thought that was really intense, but really well handled.
26:04
Speaker 2: Like just very impressive stuff. I thought, again, like, I'm
26:08
Speaker 2: so impressed with the casting. I think this is another
26:11
Speaker 2: UH win for us advocating for unknowns. Yes, first of all,
26:16
Speaker 2: why are all of them so musically talented? Because one
26:18
Speaker 2: of them was in the Jagged Little Pill Broadway show,
26:21
Speaker 2: which I didn't realize until TikTok told me last night.
26:23
Speaker 1: He's Rene raps x Stop. Yes, the ex that she
26:27
Speaker 1: cheated on Stop did not know that all those interviews
26:30
Speaker 1: she gave where she was like, I dated a man,
26:32
Speaker 1: he was a bum.
26:33
Speaker 2: It's John Logan, stunned, astonished, crazy gossip. I loved getting
26:37
Speaker 2: that gossip in real time. So I also was bracing
26:40
Speaker 2: myself for the Pop showcase because I think one of
26:43
Speaker 2: the trickiest things to do for television is songwriting, like
26:49
Speaker 2: original songwriting. And I was so scared and actually that
26:52
Speaker 2: song kind of slaid and I was like, who wrote this?
26:56
Speaker 1: She wrote it? Oh? Really? Can we also have a
26:59
Speaker 1: moment to discuss the lingerie on the show? Oh my god,
27:01
Speaker 1: insanely good. I struggle with the fact that she was
27:04
Speaker 1: like seventeen when the casting was announced in eighteen dround
27:07
Speaker 1: of filming, and like he Belmont Camellie, who plays Garrett Graham,
27:13
Speaker 1: is like twenty eight, twenty nine, He's gonna be mid
27:16
Speaker 1: thirties by the time this show is over. Yeah, And
27:20
Speaker 1: I think it's totally appropriate to have a show like
27:22
Speaker 1: this be aged up. In terms of casting. I think
27:24
Speaker 1: most of the cast members are twenty twenty six onwards.
27:27
Speaker 1: But I do think that you can tell that their
27:30
Speaker 1: intimacy scenes are shot differently out of concern and consideration
27:34
Speaker 1: for that, which I think was an interesting choice. Like,
27:37
Speaker 1: there's a really iconic mutual masturbation scene I got in
27:40
Speaker 1: a book, and in the show, we.
27:43
Speaker 2: Gotta put mutual masturbation and more. By the way, that's
27:45
Speaker 2: a side note for another day.
27:46
Speaker 1: Put a pin in that. Yeah, put a pin in that.
27:49
Speaker 1: Like very important to me. I think we need way
27:51
Speaker 1: more of that. It's shot so strangely in the show. Yeah,
27:56
Speaker 1: it's so strange. I literally couldn't stop thinking about it.
27:59
Speaker 1: I was like, this is like if an alien heard
28:02
Speaker 1: what masturbation was and was like, let me reenact this
28:05
Speaker 1: for a camera. I don't know. It was just like bizarre.
28:07
Speaker 1: It was so odd, and I think it is actually
28:09
Speaker 1: a really pivotal scene. I hear you.
28:12
Speaker 2: I was kind of nervous about watching it because I'm
28:14
Speaker 2: at a point where like my tolerance for.
28:17
Speaker 1: Like college age stories is much lower.
28:20
Speaker 2: Because I'm I'm an old lady. From like episode one
28:25
Speaker 2: minute ten, I was like giggling and kicking my feet
28:28
Speaker 2: and I.
28:28
Speaker 1: Was so sold this.
28:30
Speaker 2: This is Before I say this, I have to say
28:32
Speaker 2: that if you know me, this is the highest compliment
28:35
Speaker 2: I can bestow on a piece of media.
28:38
Speaker 1: Shades of gossip Girl for me, Wow, okay, yeah that
28:42
Speaker 1: is high breathes were huge, huge for me.
28:45
Speaker 2: Huge, Like obviously not like exactly the same, but like, yeah,
28:48
Speaker 2: there were moments where I was like, I'm getting like
28:51
Speaker 2: the arcs that I need from this, like shades of
28:55
Speaker 2: Chuck and Blair, like shades of Like it's not exactly
28:58
Speaker 2: the same, but like it's delivering on a teen drama
29:02
Speaker 2: level that I was just like, I want to I
29:03
Speaker 2: want to.
29:03
Speaker 1: Eat this up.
29:05
Speaker 2: Should we discuss because this has been an internet discussion
29:08
Speaker 2: and my husband made a joke about it and I
29:10
Speaker 2: was like, I actually genuinely can't talk about this, and
29:12
Speaker 2: even a joking way, because the internet discussion about this
29:14
Speaker 2: is making me so crazy, the heated rivalry of it all.
29:18
Speaker 1: I just don't even think they're comparable works. Is that crazy?
29:21
Speaker 2: Like I don't think they're comparable works at all. I
29:23
Speaker 2: think it's like totally different things. But it's the type
29:25
Speaker 2: of thing where obviously heated rivalry was this huge phenomenon,
29:28
Speaker 2: just like excellent timing for Off Campus that he rivalry
29:32
Speaker 2: blew up, But like, you can't make a TV show
29:35
Speaker 2: in five months, Like I don't know if people think
29:37
Speaker 2: that you can put a TV show together in five months,
29:39
Speaker 2: but like the chit chat seems to be like, oh, well,
29:42
Speaker 2: we're just making heated rivalry but straight, which doesn't.
29:45
Speaker 1: That that is like such a fundamental misunderstanding of how
29:48
Speaker 1: queerness is that like you think that you can just
29:51
Speaker 1: make a straightified version. It is aggressively heterosexual. Off campus
29:54
Speaker 1: is aggressively heterosexual. There's one non binary character. And you
29:57
Speaker 1: know how like for a long time when people pitch startups,
29:59
Speaker 1: they were like this is uber for dogs, or like
30:01
Speaker 1: uber this is Chipotle but pasta. Yeah, yeah, where people
30:05
Speaker 1: were doing that all the time. I do, unfortunately, think
30:07
Speaker 1: that a lot of romance media is doing a thing
30:09
Speaker 1: right now where they're rivalry but totally totally this is
30:13
Speaker 1: heated rivalry but for straight people is a that's crazy.
30:17
Speaker 1: That's an outrageous thing to me, And like during Pride month,
30:20
Speaker 1: like I just think that's so nuts. But I just
30:23
Speaker 1: don't even think that's a viable comp to me.
30:25
Speaker 2: It's one of the things that like it feels like
30:27
Speaker 2: heated rivalry fans are like taking off campus personally in
30:30
Speaker 2: a way that I'm like, it's just it's two different
30:33
Speaker 2: pieces of media that just like happened to go and
30:36
Speaker 2: production at the same around the same time.
30:39
Speaker 3: Yeah.
30:39
Speaker 2: The thing that I think it does have in common
30:41
Speaker 2: with heated rivalry is I do think it's a very
30:42
Speaker 2: successful romance adaptation.
30:44
Speaker 1: I think once again, it took the romance.
30:46
Speaker 2: Aspect very seriously, like the romance is the driving story.
30:50
Speaker 1: Will Hollywood take note? Will Hollywood take notes? Lacy?
30:57
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for voicemail. It's sparked off one
31:00
Speaker 2: hello conversation about off campus. I'm sure we will be
31:02
Speaker 2: talking much more about off campus in upcoming episodes.
31:06
Speaker 1: Clearly we have a lot to say.
31:08
Speaker 2: We are always happy to know what you guys want
31:10
Speaker 2: to hear about, what you want us to yap about.
31:13
Speaker 1: Suggestions are always welcome. Always that is today's show. Thank
31:17
Speaker 1: you so much the show.
31:19
Speaker 2: Call us and leave us a voicemail with your thoughts
31:21
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32:00
Speaker 2: The Radio eight three one podcast is a production of
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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts, hosted by Sonjanabascar and Tyler McCall. The show
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Speaker 2: was produced by Liz Smith and for iHeart. Our supervising
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Speaker 2: producer is Emily Meronoff special thanks to the whole iHeart
32:15
Speaker 2: team and especially Ali Perry and Alison Kanter Graver. Our
32:19
Speaker 2: executive producers are Claire Maser and Erica Cerulo. Our music
32:23
Speaker 2: is Domino by James Ryan Carr and Love Is What
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Speaker 2: You Do by Alibi.
32:27
Speaker 1: We'll be sharing love here again next week