Latest / Hart & Hustle Podcast / Why Most People Misunderstand Their Calling in Life
Transcript
- Efrain: Welcome back to another episode here on the Heart and Huzzle Podcast. We have Miss Deborah in the building. How are you doing today, ma'am? Deborah Tepley: Doing well a frame. Yeah. Efrain: Are you excited? we have a an another conversation and and I always love these conversations because it really gets to give a different perspective from a different leader that is doing passion and purpose work, as I say. Are you excited for combo? Deborah Tepley: Yes, I am really excited for this call. I feel very passionate about the work I do. I feel very called to it and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to share with you and your listeners today. Efrain: Let people know what is the organization that you're representing today. Deborah Tepley: Yeah, so I work for the Anglican Church in North America. I am the executive director and it is a essentially a church den we call it a province, but it's a church denomination that has around a thousand churches in the US, Canada, and Mexico. Efrain: Love it. And what is your you said actually, executive director. And how long have you been with them? Deborah Tepley: Yeah, I've been in this role for two years. And prior to this, I was working at a church. So for about eight years, I worked at an Anglican church in Washington, DC. And while I was working for that church, I was very involved in our diocese, in the province. I was on the executive committee, which is essentially the board of directors for the denomination, and then transitioned into this role two years ago. Efrain: And you said it's a calling. When did you realize that this was your calling? Deborah Tepley: Yeah, so I was raised in a very Christian religious household and I felt a sense of calling to the ministry when I was a child. I, you know, at that point I really thought that meant being a pastor or doing some kind of hands-on ministry. I had this vision of myself dying in a hut in Africa, which you know, impressed part of my household. I Efrain: What does it Deborah Tepley: feel like that was kind of part of the the culture was that, you know, ministry is the highest calling. And so I was very affirmed by the pastors and leaders in my church. I was always very involved in my church growing up. And so I when I graduated from college, I went overseas. I joined the Peace Corps, and it was sort of my way of saying, okay, I'm gonna test the waters, I'm gonna go overseas. I spent two years in Russia, and then another spent an additional year with a mission organization in Ukraine, and then transitioned from that into seminary. I went to Fuller Theological Seminary. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Efrain: heard the Peace Corp kinda often when you're usually in this space people t say that they've joined that. If for those listeners that may not have no idea what the Peace Corp is, if you can kinda get some explanation behind it. Deborah Tepley: Yeah, so it's an organization that's funded by the United States government that is sent to do essentially service overseas. And so, you know, you can there it do service in a variety of ways in a variety of countries, whether that's through, you know, they healthcare workers or engineers or different you know, different types of those kinds of expertise. I was an English teacher, so I taught English in a Russian public school for two years. And it's a way to, I think to I think for Americans both to serve and give, and and and then also a a way to kind of experience the world. So you're sort of experiencing the world as an American and bringing that back when you come back to your to to the US. Efrain: I would say that my life when I went and got to see a different country, I came back thinking everyone should have that experience. What Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: was your experience going into a different country? What did you bring back? Deborah Tepley: Yeah. So I did I had the opportunity to do a couple of missions trips when I was in high school and college to Mexico and Guatemala, and then of course traveled to Russia and Ukraine in kind of my early twenties through the Peace Corps and through a missions organization. And yeah, I think it really just broadens your perspective, your heart for the world. I think it helped me understand, you know, how American I was. So it actually kind Efrain: huh. Deborah Tepley: of helped to reinforce, like, I d I actually am, you know. an American and the kind of what that means in terms of both the pros and cons of of that as a as my part of my identity and my heritage. but yeah, I think that really I I I think it just sort of broadens your perspective and helps you to I think we as you come back to the US, it makes you a more well rounded citizen. Efrain: Yeah, no for sure. I came back and I almost felt that, wait a minute, we as Americans may be a little entitled at times. Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: you know, when you get to see how other people live and even through those living conditions, just the happiness that they also have and the the way they care and the way that they unite. I thought that was something very special. and and hopes that we as Americans can always do that 'cause a lot of times there's this division that doesn't really need to be, you know. We're all God's Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: kids, I would say. So it's like, why are Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: we fighting one another? so that's kind of, you know, I'm excited. I I hope that so many people could join organizations like that. So really have that experience. But I kind of want to go back to that English teacher. So you were an English Deborah Tepley: Yeah. Efrain: teacher, still doing purpose work. I say teachers are underrated and underpaid. how did you get becoming an English teacher? How did that happen? Deborah Tepley: I think I had been an English and history double major in college, and so it just seems like I think the best fit for me given my education at that time. Yeah. Efrain: Yeah. Do you did you always know you wanted to be an English teacher or was just something that just kind of happened? Deborah Tepley: No, yeah, that just kind of happened. And of course I'm not an English teacher anymore. So that was not like a long term trajectory for me, but it was a great experience at that point, a great way to serve. So Efrain: And and then when you think about the educational system, what what what was the I guess what did you learn from that? I always feel like every chapter in our Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: lives there's something to learn from. What did you take away from that chapter in your life? Deborah Tepley: Yeah, I mean I think you know, as you described, you know, when you go overseas, it really does you know, have such an impact on you. So I think for me learning, I got to learn a completely different educational system. I've course got to help students learn English, which was, you know, its own kind of privilege. but yeah, I think for the most part it was just I mean, I I d I did not take that as a career path. So I, you know, I felt like that was kind of a limited window in my life where I taught English, but It was a great experience, a great way to serve, a great way to to experience another country and another culture and and learn a lot and really feel like I got to be inside of a Russian public school system for two years and made a lot of friends with teachers and students and so it was a great way to develop relationships and just learn more about the world. So Efrain: Love it. And then today you're serving still, you're serving in a different way. let us know. What does that look like Deborah Tepley: Yeah. Efrain: day to day for you being an executive director for the church that you serve? Deborah Tepley: Yeah. yeah. Well, I mean, first I would say there was a pretty big inflection point in my life kind of post seminary. While I was in seminary, I worked at a missions organizations in the headquarters. And again, I had this vision, you know, I thought I'm called to the ministry, I'm going to either be a pastor or somehow, you know, go overseas and serve as a missionary, and provide sort of hands-on care in some way, shape, or form. That was sort of the ideal kind of vision that I had for my life. And then while I was working for this missions organization, I just realized, I actually am more well suited to administrative and organizational leadership. So in that role, I was recruiting volunteer teachers, training them, kind of administering programs in the former Soviet Union. And so for me, that was a really big inflection point in terms of kind of understanding myself, understanding my gifts, understanding kind of how I ticked and how I fit into kind of the ministry setting. And so that sort of really changed the my trajectory. I ended up moving to Pennsylvania. I worked at a college called Messiah College, which had a program that integrated engineering service, international service into the curriculum. So I was able to manage essentially a kind of a nonprofit on a campus and work with students, sending them overseas to do service work as part of their engineering degree, other other degrees as well, but but primarily engineering. I got to spend a summer in Burkina Faso with some students. they were building tricycles for persons with disabilities. And but I think again, there was sort of this kind of movement in my life of, I I am called to the ministry, but it's a kind of a a different kind of role than I had originally envisioned. later moved into kind of just straight up international development. I did USAID consulting in DC for a number of years. and at a certain point, Ephraim felt like I I felt like I had this feeling I'm climbing this ladder. I think I'm doing it successfully. It's a really good and important work. But I just had this sense of like, I don't know if this is the ladder that I want to be climbing. Or I kind of just felt like I needed to take a, take some time and kind of regroup and re really reevaluate my sense of calling. And so it was at that point that I went back to school. I did an MBA at Georgetown University in DC. And while I was doing that degree, I really had this deep internal sense of I really want to go back to the faith-based world. And I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what that would look like. I just knew that something was kind of, I just felt this kind of call that call or pull back to faith-based work. Well, after I finished my degree, I had been attending this Anglican church in DC. It was essentially a church plant. And my rector sat down with me and said, Well, you know, kind of in in simplifying the language, but you know, would you consider joining my team and being my number two or a church plant I want to professionalize? I wanna like there's so many dreams I have for a congregation in the city, doing ministry in the city, buying a building. and so he said, Would you come join the team and kind of help me take our church to the next kind of stage in the life of our organization? And that was something that I felt like I had sort of developed, inadvertently developed a skill in kind of professionalizing organizations or kind of helping departments or organizations move into the next phase of their organizational development. And so I ended up serving in that role for eight years. And it was just such a joy working with him, working for the church. again, kind of professionalizing systems, processes, communications. I helped to create the infrastructure for two capital campaigns for our church. We did end up buying a building in downtown Washington, DC. It's actually the longest, oldest standing church in DC that we were able to kind of it was in a dilapidated state. We were able to buy it and kind of re Efrain: No. Deborah Tepley: you know, renovate it. And so that was post my time. I was sort of like my closing gift was sort of the working with the rector to purchase the property. And then I ended up transitioning to this role. but I think, yeah, just this sense of I mean, I just feel really grateful that I was able to see and understand this marriage of these two callings. And when I stepped into that role at Church of the Advent in DC, I did it was like this kind of light bulb went off for me of I did hear a sense like God called me to ministry as a child. And I just didn't understand what that meant. And suddenly it felt like I was kind of I don't know, like giving birth to something Efrain: Yeah. Deborah Tepley: in a way that I had not expected, kind of stepping into this role, not ordained, not a pastor, but really working alongside a pastor to help to support our pastor and to provide the kinds of things that a church, a church really needs. it might not, you know, a lot of churches don't understand that they need these kinds of giftings of administration or organization, but but pastors really need someone to work alongside them to to support them in this way. Efrain: So really the the role of life in itself led you to be here today. Take all the the knowledge and the tools and the resources Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: that you gather to say, okay, now it's time for me to kind of step into something bigger than me. Cause a lot of the times I Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: would say that we have an expectation of what our life may look like, but God always has his bigger plan. And I was just even talking to a friend before I got on with you today, and she was kind of bummed out that she lost a client. you know, because that client says, I just felt like you weren't your mind wasn't where it needed to be. And I had to kind of s let her know if someone doesn't see you for who you are and the passion and purpose, that person's not for you. And I can imagine that you've probably experienced that where you felt maybe heartbroken because there was something that you really wanted to do, but you realize, wait, I didn't I didn't need to panic. I needed to pivot. Where in your life did you find those pivotal moments? Cause I believe so many times we get lost in trying to chase our dreams, but things happen for reasons, right? Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: God is really funny in the way that He does things. Do you recall those times where you could have panicked but pivot and and you've seen the other side? Deborah Tepley: Yeah, I mean, I think that like I mean, these kind of two major inflection points looking back, I can see this when I worked for this mission's organization when I was in seminary and sort of this light you know, I'm in seminary, I'm training to be like kind of pastor missionary, and this kind of light bulb moment of I actually am really much better suited to this kind of an organizational leadership or administrative role. And those obviously they're not mutually exclusive, right? They are related. But it is a slightly different kind of role than being a pastor or being a missionary, I think. So that was one really significant inflection point for me that I think really turned my life in a different direction than I had anticipated it would go. and then I think it was working at international development and that feeling of just like, I really this work is so rich and so good, and the people I work with are so brilliant, and I'm sort of I'm being, I'm successful, you know, I'm successfully climbing. I just remember that feeling of like I'm climbing this ladder and I'm doing it. But I don't actually feel like what's at the top of this ladder is for me. You know, I feel like it's there's something else for me that God is calling me to. And so that kind of going back to school, doing the MBA retooling was another opportunity for me to sort of kind of transition. And then that that that that kind of transition back to the faith-based space. You know, I remember thinking, because you know, there were times when I was working in international development where I thought, like, why did I go to seminary? It was hard to even make sense of that decision or that You know, people would ask like, are you a pastor? Do you want to be a pastor? And I would No, I don't, you I don't feel called to be a pastor. but I think coming out of my MBA and going back into the faith-based world and realizing kind of that convergence of the MBA and seminary into this role. and and then honestly, Fran, I have just felt so affirmed in this role. I do feel like I am kind of unique in that I'm not, you know, I'm in a leadership role, but I'm not ordained, I'm not clergy. I'm in a female and often very dominant male spaces, and but I've I've really just felt respected, affirmed, esteemed. I think that in and increasingly in my context, and this may be different in other church contexts, but I am seeing kind of church leaders say, We need more people like you. We need lay Efrain: Mm-hmm. Deborah Tepley: leaders who have administrative gifts, organizational gifts who can serve the church, and like pastors need that. You know, pastors. When they get into ministry, they feel called to ministry. You know, th and there are some pastors who are very administratively gifted. Many of them are, you know, they're they're really they wanna serve people, they wanna preach, they wanna teach, they Efrain: Yeah. Deborah Tepley: wanna, you know, minister to their community, they wanna preach the gospel. And so they really often need someone to come alongside them to provide that kind of like we call it like a tr the there's a book called The Trellis and the Vine. You know, there's the vine growth, but then you need the trellis to support the growth of the vine. And that's those are kind of like those systems of or the organization help to support. The ministry and you need those to kind of grow in tandem with each other. Efrain: Yeah, because their strength is the word, right? Their strength is that. Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: And sometimes their weakness may be that background admin work. And I think for a lot of leaders, whether it's in the faith base or even just in the corporate or nonprofit world, you see that often is that they're really good at what they do. A lot of the times they still need that support in the background to make it all happen. And it looks like you're Deborah Tepley: Yeah. Efrain: definitely that person. But I do want to ask, because you mentioned like being in school and kind of not really knowing the direction. That becomes noise. You're asking yourself, what am I Deborah Tepley: Mm. Efrain: doing? What where should I be going? How are you blocking out the noise during those times? Because I can imagine it got really loud. Deborah Tepley: that is such a great question. And you know, an ongoing question, I think, in our lives of all those, all that noise of like, am I where I'm supposed to be? I think that's like a continual discipline. Efrain: Yeah, yeah. Deborah Tepley: there's a great book on discernment. It's by Steve Macchia. I forget the name, it's I think it's the discernment's in the title, and it came out a few years ago. And basically, kind of his thesis is that most decisions in life. When it is the time to make them, they are generally clear. That it's sort of like we get kind of hung up on we're trying to make decisions before we need to. The timing is not right. So he talks about kind of being a boat on the water, and it's like if there's no wind, just like just you gotta wait, you know? Like you can sort Efrain: No. Deborah Tepley: of struggle and you know, you gotta kinda put a lot of effort into it, or you can just wait for the wind of the spirit. And so I think about that a lot in my life in general, the just this sense of like, am I if I'm feeling angst about kind of my life or direction or decisions. Is it like premature, you know? Is it, is this the time? And then oftentimes I think when it comes time to make a decision, it's really clear. An example would be when I was coming to the end of my time at Advent, I did feel for probably that year in advance, I did feel like, okay, I feel like I've sort of maximized my potential here. I feel like I'm kind of ready for what's next. and did feel some angst around that. And then when the you know when the opera, you know, Of was looking at different opportunities, feeling a little stressed, stressed out about that. And then when this opportunity came up to work for the province, it was just so clear and the timing was right. And it there was no kind of no stress or drama around that decision ultimately. Efrain: Yeah. Deborah Tepley: That's not to say obviously we need to go through processes of, you know, we have to do our homework, we have to, I'm not saying you don't, you know, sort of do do the work, but I do think that sometimes in my life I recognize, I'm feeling very anxious about this and like that is not how God speaks to us through anxiety or fear. And am I actually just kind of trying to make a decision like in and it's premature? And when the time is right, Efrain: Yeah. Deborah Tepley: like God will God will show me what to do. Efrain: Sometime we just gotta be patient. Just you Deborah Tepley: Uh-huh. Efrain: know. And as you mentioned, not patient in the sense of just sitting there twiddling your thumbs, but patient in the sense of do not make the jump if it's not for you at that moment. 'Cause a lot of the times we want I I like I think we're in a bad space when we have like an Amazon that gets us things the next day or everything is curated for us, we have this expectation that it's just going to happen. And it's it's not that. I mean, Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: people forty, fifty years old finally find that purpose, find their calling. Everybody's timeline is different. And I think comparison is also horrible. people start to compare themselves a l you know, around, well, this person is doing this and I can do it better. Did do you ever find, you know, people in those spaces? And what do you tell those people that are trying to compare themselves to everybody around them? Deborah Tepley: Yeah, I think I mean that happens in church circles all the time, right? It's so easy as a pastor I mean, especially for pastors, right, to compare yourself to other other pastors, other churches, other ministries. yeah, I think there is a certain amount of really I think you know you we really do need to find our identity in Christ. You know, at the end of the day, you know, and I I think a lot about I try to do I just came back from a silent retreat a couple of of weeks ago, just these times away where you can sort of I guess get away what you were referring to the noise, kind of get away from the noise, get time in solitude, turn off all your devices, right? Just sort of turn it off. And just r kind of be reminded of like, who am I? you know, and I am a I am a child of God. And how do I and like that is my primary identity. All these other things are important. You know, our calling is important. It's not a it's kind of how God made us. It's how we t God made us to tick, right? But I think it is important to just really be grounded spiritually, grounded in your faith, grounded in Christ. I think that is such an important part that I think, you know, that never goes away. that kind of need for, I mean, we see that in scripture with Jesus withdrawing to pray. I just think we need those rhythms of Rest, renewal, refreshment, solitude to remind us and kind of center us of and help us to remember who we are. Efrain: Wanna kinda pivot you just because you're on that side of like admin and the background work, Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: what does technology play a role like, especially with something of AI today? Is that something that you know I've I've always intrigued. Do you guys use AI? I I and I only say this because I had a conversation with my wife. She she had mentioned what would God want in a man. And, you know, me and being who I am, I said, What does God want in a man? So I went to one of my best friends, you know, Claude, Chat GPT, whatever. Deborah Tepley: Ha ha. Efrain: 'Cause it knew a little bit about me and I asked a question. And when I come back and told my wife about it, she's looking at me, don't you ever do that, right? Like, if you have a question, you go to the Bible, you ask God. And I'm like, Well, is AI being used in this space? You know, cause it's like almost every industry is seeing it. What do you say, kind of being in the space? Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. that is a great question. That is a loaded question too, Ephraim. I think that obviously there are a wide variety of opinions, so I don't I will not in any way say that I suggest that I'm speaking for the whole ACNA, because I'm sure there will be lots of people with lots of opinions that I don't, you know, that are not mine or that are, you know, different from mine. Efrain: Yeah, yeah. Deborah Tepley: I think that in terms of our office, we do use AI and you know, I mean, I think we're probably using it like many folks are doing in terms of just kind of administrative assistant tasks, you know, editing support, you know, helping with po you know, developing policies, developing procedures, helping to polish, you know, things. So I mean, I've I use it, I think like many people, I use it every day. I I try to use it ethically, I try to use it responsibly, essentially as like an almost like an executive assistant, I would say, or like a research assistant. in terms of pastors, I do think that there's tremendous benefit for those who feel open to using AI. And I know that not all pastors feel feel that way. Some have ethical concerns about it. but I do think there are tools for Bible study, for sermon writing. And I'm not talking about writing your sermon for you, but sort of being, I think the thing that you're just talk that you're talking about, like kind of being a conversation partner. It's like, well, I wanna write this sermon about this topic. What are the strongest arguments against what I'm saying? Or, you know, what are the best are there scripture referen references that I'm missing? so and I think that my sense is that there are kind of theological tools that are being developed specifically for pastors that are very AI driven and yeah, hopefully those help us to make better use of our time and help us to be better at the things that we but at the jobs that Efrain: Yeah. Deborah Tepley: we do, you know. Efrain: I I think you may have helped some people, you know, steer one way for sure, because I think Deborah Tepley: Yeah. Efrain: it is it is definitely a tool that it's not going away. I think there's a lot of fear around it for the right reasons, right? Like what does that look like for us? Is it being used correctly? And I love that you says, hey, we're using it and we're making sure that there's guardrails around how we Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Efrain: use it, through the organization as a whole. But it was always intriguing. Like, is that something? You know, I got shunned here by my wife and my neighbor. They looked at me like I did the worst thing ever. And I'm like, guys, I was just curious. I went to Clyde and asked a question. you know, so it's it's just cool that you kind of tapped into that. Outside of all this, you just talked about sometimes the retreat. How do you what is the things that you do outside of work, outside to just kind of relax your mind, to find sometimes peace, you know, people who say gardening, people who say nature. What is that thing that you do? Deborah Tepley: Yeah, great question. I like many people in this kind of a position, I do work a lot and you know, it requires a lot of evenings, weekends, et cetera. but that being said, I actually do try to take a Sabbath every week. It's typically for me, it's actually Saturday. that's a day when I feel like Friday I can kind of like close up Friday night and then Saturday is my day where I try to send more center time with God. So doing more extended Bible study, I try to get outside in nature. maybe go to the by the I'm in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina to try to get to the beach. try to spend time with my my husband. so yeah, I I do I think the Sabbath rhythm for me, I I feel like I'm very high capacity. Like I feel like I can work a lot of hours and I don't get burned out easily. But if I don't take the I need one day off a week to just turn it off and kind of remember, yeah, be be be a non worker bee, you know, not be productive, Efrain: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Deborah Tepley: kind of do do other other life things. really you know, physical activities and things like that. So I think that's the main thing for me is just getting if I can get that one day a week, I feel like then I can kind of reset and start again. Efrain: What do you think your biggest accomplishment to date is that you're most proud of? Deborah Tepley: wow. I don't think you prepared me for this question. I know. Efrain: I know, put you on the hot seat here. Put you on the hot seat. Deborah Tepley: You know, I mean, I think in this job, so we didn't talk a l a lot about that job that but I was able to I had the privilege of stepping into this role and restructuring the team. And so got to kind of totally re envision, you know, went through a phase of really discerning what is the role of the denominational office, like what is our lane, Efrain: Yeah. Deborah Tepley: what are we here for? And then I got to create with our executive committee, our board of directors, a new org chart, you know, sort of like, okay, this is sort of what I think would best support the the the the purpose of the provincial office and was able to hire a team and I feel very proud of that team. I feel like I prayed that God would send me the best people and I feel like he really did. He gave sent me people who are so talented at what they do in communications and finance and safeguarding and operations. I feel like God just sent me church planting, people who are so gifted and so skilled who are way smarter than I am. make me and the Archbishop look very good. so I I I feel that is the thing that I am most proud of. I cannot really take credit for it, but I I think just that that they this team is serving the province and is doing that joyfully and they all feel their own sense of calling to these roles. I think each person that we've hired, we've really tried to set discern do you feel called to this role? That it's not just a job, it is a calling in in the same way that pastoral ministry is a calling and each person has a firm Efrain: Love that. And while you're pouring into others, you talk about this team. A lot of times we're pouring, pouring, pouring, and then our cup goes empty. Who's pouring into you? Who are those mentors? Who are those people that you can kind of go to when that cup feels a little empty? Deborah Tepley: Yeah. I mean I've got lots of them. People from my past. So I have a great prayer partner that I met at Messiah College that I still she's a p a pastor and a therapist who I pray with every Thursday morning. We we could talk on the phone and pray. We've been doing that for probably, I don't know, fifteen years now. I have a number of pastors and bishops who I can call on when I'm when I need help, whether I need a pick me up, you know, I need advice, I need support. So I mean, yeah, I feel very privileged. I have a lot of a lot of clergy friends that I can call on who who love me, who are there for me, who are good listening ears. Efrain: And when someone is I will kind of go back to when you just said you had kind of this calling at a young age and you were just going through life. If someone is at that place in their life right now where they're asking themselves, What should I be doing? And should I be going to simmer in your school? Should I be working at a church? What is my direction? What do you tell that person? It still feels a little kind of lost. Deborah Tepley: Yeah, I think that I mean there is this sense of in my tradition, there are different like pathways. So in my tradition, ordination is a very specific kind of calling to ordained ministry. So people who are in administrative roles, not to say they can't be ordained, they can be, but many of them are not ordained. so we don't sort of like push people to ordination or to be to be a reverend. so I think first the first question is like, is your calling to be Like a deacon or a priest. That's its own kind of specific special pathway. Efrain: Mm-hmm. Deborah Tepley: I think if someone is called to serve the church, then I think that can happen, obviously, if you're volunteering at a church, but if they're called, if they feel called to work at a church, I think that I mean, I think theological training is very helpful. I think that that helps you to relate well to clergy and to understand their role. And so you don't necessarily need to get an MDiv, but I do think that some kind of theological or seminary or you know, that there's lots of ways to get theological training. So I would definitely encourage that. And then I think Yeah, I just I mean, I I think I would just like there to be more visibility into these roles in the church of management, of communications, of administration, that the church does need those roles and we need people who feel a sense of calling to work with pastors to help support the life of the church. And so yeah, I just think, you know, obviously having a college degree is great. but I think that yeah, just working with your pastor, with your bishop, you know, find finding ways to get involved. There's lots of ways you volunteer volunteer to church and play administrative roles to even get a sense for like, is this what I would want to do? and churches often have a lot of flexibility. They offer they can offer part-time roles or you know, there's there's churches often have more flexibility than other organizations, but I think just really praying, discerning, working with your pastors to discern that call and then trying to get your feet wet as much as you can is really would be is is a is a great way to sort of test it out. Efrain: Yeah, no, that's good knowledge for someone that may have never stepped foot in a church but wants to be a part of it. You've just kind of give us a whole bunch of details on what someone Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Efrain: how can someone plug in because maybe they're doing something like this in the corporate world and they're not being fulfilled. Maybe they could take that talent into a different world that really fills their cup per se. So we appreciate the conversation. Deborah Tepley: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Efrain: Where can people find more information on the church and all the information that you kind of provided today around it? Deborah Tepley: Yes. We have a website. It's called Anglicanchurch.net. So the Anglican Church in North America. So you can find more information there. And if you're looking for me, I'm on LinkedIn. So Deborah Tupley at LinkedIn. so that's those are probably the two best ways to get involved with to kind of find more information about the ACNA, but then and then to connect with me personally. Efrain: Are you guys on social as well? Deborah Tepley: Yes, on social as well. Yes. Efrain: Love it, love it. Well, we thank you for s so much for the insight. because I think some people do not know what goes on in the background. They just go to a church, see a pastor, and see all these moving pieces. But it truly takes a village to put this together. There's a lot of background work and you just kind of give us an insight of what that looks like. Continue doing the amazing work and continue to chase that call in. Deborah, it has been a pleasure. My name is Ephraim. Deborah Tepley: Thank you. Efrain: Well, guys, we'll catch you on the next one. Later.