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Bill's Story · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [rock music] Welcome back. Yes. After four weeks, we've entered the first chapter.
• 0:09
  Uh, good to be here, but also pre-warning, there is a long chunk of Bill's story that is just literally his story. So we're gonna read it, and John, I think you feel the same way. Yeah.
• 0:23
  Uh, for the sake of the commitment of deep diving in the book, we're gonna go through the whole thing. Yep.
• 0:28
  But it's gonna be more reading and less commentary for the first portion of this, and I'll have timestamps that I'll add after the fact.
• 0:36
  I think it is important, now that I'm reflecting on it, I do think it's important that we read Bill's story, because all of us have a story. Mm-hmm.
• 0:43
  And our stories matter, and our des- and our stories, like, they do deserve to be heard. And it's not in a narcissistic way, but it is just, like, this communal sharing of, like, burden
• 0:56
  with our brothers and sisters that are in the program, you know? So in that way, I think, like, maybe it is, now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it is appropriate to honor Bill, to honor his story. Mm-hmm. And, um,
• 1:08
  you know, it, it-- and look, like, y- you know, as we read through this, there's gonna be things that are relatable to your experience, to my experience, to people out there, to y'all's experience.
• 1:18
  Some of it's gonna feel dated and kinda like, "What is he even talking about?" Um, but I do, I think in the grand scheme of things, like, it's his story, and just like
• 1:29
  you guys out there who are listening, like, y'all's story is important, and y'all's story deserves to be heard too.
• 1:34
  So yeah, I think now that we're kinda talking about it, I do think it's relevant to, to allow Bill to tell his story. Yeah. That's, that's a good point.
• 1:45
  I mean, even as we're in meetings and stuff and sharing with each other, the habit of telling our personal stories, like, it never gets old. Mm-hmm.
• 1:55
  It's, it can always be helpful, and I can always latch onto pieces, if not the whole- That's right... of others. That's right. Yeah, so maybe, maybe what we do is, like, I don't know, maybe you read a page- Yeah...
• 2:08
  I'll read a page- Yeah... kinda thing. Yeah, that's, that's what I think. Uh, and I think, like, honestly, for the sake of story, if I'm, if I'm thinking about it like speaker night, [laughs]
• 2:17
  you know, those are the coolest things- Yeah... because you get to hear people's story, but also their stories are uninterrupted. Mm-hmm.
• 2:23
  So my instinct was like, well, maybe there's a place to, for some commentary on, on parts of this. I think maybe the better thing to do is just to allow him to tell it, uh, uninterrupted. Yep.
• 2:34
  You know, and like you said, sure, maybe we s- timestamp to where we get to the end, or maybe we just read his story today and, and maybe have some reflections on it at the end.
• 2:43
  Um, but yeah, maybe we treat it as a speaker meeting. You know, maybe we just sit back and hear Bill tell his story. I'm game for that, all the way, the, the whole chapter then. Yeah. Yeah. Let, let's do it. Yeah.
• 2:57
  Let's see what happens. Yeah. Page at a time. Yeah. All right, Bill's story, chapter one.
• 3:02
  "War fever ran high in the New England town to which we new young officers from Plattsburgh were assigned, and we were flattered when the first citizens took us to their homes, making us feel heroic.
• 3:16
  Here was love, applause, war, moments sublime with intervals hilarious. I was part of life at last, and in the midst of the excitement, I discovered liquor.
• 3:28
  I forgot the strong warnings and the prejudices of my people concerning drink. In time, we sailed for over there. I was very lonely and again turned to alcohol. We landed in England. I visited Winchester Cathedral.
• 3:43
  Much moved, I wandered outside. My attention was caught by a dogger- doggerel on an old tombstone. 'Here lies a Hampshire grenadier who caught his death drinking cold small beer.
• 3:58
  A good soldier is ne'er forgot, whether he died by musket or by pot.' Ominous warning which I failed to heed. Twenty-two and a veteran of foreign wars, I went home at last.
• 4:11
  I fancied myself a leader, for had not the men of my battery given me a special token of appreciation?
• 4:19
  My talent for leadership, I imagined, would place me at the head of vast enterprises which I would manage with the utmost assurance."
• 4:27
  "I took a night law course and obtained employment as investigator for a surety company. The drive for success was on. I'd proved to the world that I was important.
• 4:38
  My work took me about Wall Street, and little by little I became interested in the market. Many people lost money, but some became very rich. Why not I? I studied economics and business as well as law.
• 4:49
  Potential alcoholic that I was, I nearly failed my law course. At one of the finals, I was too drunk to think or write. Though my drinking was not yet continuous, it disturbed my wife.
• 5:01
  We had long talks when I would still, when I would still her forebodings by telling her that men of genius conceived their best projects when drunk, that the most majestic constructions of philosophic thought were so derived.
• 5:14
  By the time I had completed the course, I knew the law, that law was not for me. The inviting maelstrom of Wall Street had me in its grip. Business and financial leaders were my heroes.
• 5:24
  Out of this alloy of drink and speculation, I commenced to forge the weapon that one day would turn it, turn in its flight like a boomerang and all but cut me to ribbons. Living modestly, my wife and I saved $1,000.
• 5:38
  It went into certain securities, then cheap and rather unpopular. I rightly imagined that they would someday have a great rise.
• 5:45
  I failed to persuade my broker friends to send me out looking over factories and managements, but my wife and I decided to go anyway.
• 5:52
  I had developed a theory that most people lost money in stocks through ignorance of markets. I discovered many more reasons later on."
• 6:00
  We gave up our positions and off we roared on a motorcycle, the sidecar stuffed with tent, blankets, a change of clothes, and three huge volumes of a financial reverend service.
• 6:11
  Our friends thought a lunacy commission should be appointed. Perhaps they were right.
• 6:16
  I had had some success at speculation, so we had a little money, but we once worked on a farm for a month to avoid drawing on our small capital. That was the last honest manual labor on my part for many a day.
• 6:30
  We covered the whole eastern United States in a year. At the end of it, my reports to Wall Street procured me a position there and the use of a large expense account.
• 6:41
  The exercise of an option brought in more money, leaving us with a profit of several thousand dollars for that year. For the next few years, fortune threw money and applause my way. I had arrived.
• 6:54
  My judgment and ideas were followed by many to the tune of paper millions. The great boom of the late 20s was seething and swelling. Drink was taking an important and exhilarating part in my life.
• 7:08
  There was loud talk in the jazz places uptown. Everyone spent in thousands and chattered in millions. Scoffers could scoff and be damned. I made a host of fair-weather friends.
• 7:21
  My drinking assumed more serious proportions, continuing all day and almost every night. The remonstrations of my friends terminated in a row and I became a lone wolf.
• 7:33
  There were many unhappy scenes in our sumptuous apartment. There had been no real infidelity, for loyalty to my wife, helped at times by extreme drunkenness, kept me out of those scrapes.
• 7:45
  In 1929, I contracted golf fever. We went at once to the country, my wife to applaud while I started out to overtake Walter Hagen. Liquor caught up with me much faster than I came up behind Walter.
• 7:59
  I began to be jittery in the morning. Golf permitted drinking every day and every night. It was fun to carom around the exclusive course which had inspired such awe in me as a lad.
• 8:12
  I acquired the impeccable coat of tan one sees upon the well-to-do. The local banker watched me whirl fat checks in and out of his till with amused skepticism.
• 8:23
  Abruptly in October 1929, hell broke loose on the New York Stock Exchange. After one of those days of inferno, I wobbled from a hotel bar to a brokerage office. It was eight o'clock, five hours after the market closed.
• 8:36
  The ticker still clattered. I was staring at an inch of the tape which bore the inscription XYZ-32. It had been 52 that morning. I was finished and so were my many friends.
• 8:50
  The papers reported men jumping to death from the towers of high finance. That disgusted me. I would not jump. I went back to the bar. My friends had dropped several million since ten o'clock. So what?
• 9:01
  Tomorrow was another day. As I drank, the old fierce determination to win came back. Next morning I telephoned a friend in Montreal. He had plenty of money left and thought I had better go to Canada.
• 9:14
  By the following spring we were living in our accustomed style. I felt like Napoleon returning to Elba. No St. Helena for me. But drinking caught up with me again and my generous friend had to let me go.
• 9:26
  This time we stayed broke. We went to live with my wife's parents. I found a job and then lost it as a result of a brawl with a taxi driver.
• 9:35
  Mercifully no one could guess that I was to have no real employment for five years or hardly draw a sober breath. My wife began to work in a department store coming home exhausted to find me drunk.
• 9:47
  I became an unwelcome hanger-on at brokerage places. Liquor ceased to be a luxury. It became a necessity. Bathtub gin, two bottles a day and often three, got to be routine.
• 10:01
  Sometimes a small deal would net a few hundred dollars and I would pay my bills at the bars and delicatessens. This went on endlessly and I began to waken very early in the morning, shaking violently.
• 10:14
  A tumbler full of gin followed by half a dozen bottles of beer would be required if I were to eat any breakfast.
• 10:21
  Nevertheless I still thought I could control the situation and there were periods of sobriety which renewed my wife's hope. Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the mortgage holder.
• 10:35
  My mother-in-law died. My wife and father-in-law became ill. Then I got a promising business opportunity. Stocks were at the low point of 1932 and I had somehow formed a group to buy.
• 10:50
  I was to share generously in the profits. Then I went on a prodigious bender and the chance vanished. I woke up. This had to be stopped. I saw I could not take so much as one drink. I was through forever.
• 11:07
  Before then I had written lots of sweet promises but my wife happily observed that this time I meant business. And so I did. Shortly afterwards I came home drunk. There had been no fight. Where had been my high resolve?
• 11:22
  I simply didn't know. It hadn't even come to mind. Someone had pushed a drink my way and I had taken it. Was I crazy? I began to wonder for such an appalling lack of perspective seemed near being just that.
• 11:37
  Renewing my resolve I tried again. Some time passed and confidence began to be replaced by cocksureness. I could laugh at the gin mills. Now I had what it takes. One day I walked into a cafe to telephone.
• 11:53
  In no time I was beating on the bar asking myself how it happened. As the whiskey rose to my head I told myself I would manage better next time but I might as well get a good drunk.
• 12:03
  But I might as well get good and drunk then and I did. The remorse, horror, and hopelessness of the next morning are unforgettable. The courage to do battle was not there.
• 12:13
  My brain raced uncontrollably, and there was a terrible sense of impending calamity. I hardly dared cross the street lest I collapse and be run down by an early morning truck, for it was scarcely daylight.
• 12:26
  An all-night place supplied me with a dozen glasses of ale. My writhing nerves were stilled at last. The morning paper told me the market had gone to hell again. Well, so had I. The market would recover, but I wouldn't.
• 12:39
  That was a hard thought. Should I kill myself? No, not now. Then a mental fog settled down. Gin would fix that, so two bottles and oblivion.
• 12:51
  The mind and body are marvelous mechanisms, for mine endured this agony two more years. Sometimes I stole from my wife's slender purse when the morning, when the morning terror and madness were on me.
• 13:02
  Again, I swayed dizzily before an open window or the medicine cabinet where there was poison, cursing myself for a weak link.
• 13:11
  There were f- there were flights from city to country and back as my wife and I sought to escape.
• 13:16
  Then came the night when the physical and mental torture was so hellish I feared I would burst through my window, sash and all. Somehow I managed to drag my ma- my mattress to a lower floor lest I suddenly leap.
• 13:29
  A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks. People feared for my sanity. So did I.
• 13:43
  I could eat little or nothing when drinking, and I was forty pounds underweight.
• 13:47
  My brother-in-law is a physician, and through his kindness and that of my mother, I was placed in a nationally known hospital for the mental and physical rehabilitation of alcoholics.
• 13:59
  Under the so-called belladonna treatment, my brain cleared. Hydrotherapy and mild exercise helped much.
• 14:06
  Best of all, I met a kind doctor who explained that though certainly selfish and foolish, I had been seriously ill, bodily and mentally.
• 14:16
  It relieved me somewhat to learn that in alcoholics, the willpower is amazingly weakened when it comes to combating liquor, though it often remains strong in other respects.
• 14:28
  My incredible behavior in the face of a desperate desire to stop was explained. Understanding myself now, I fared forth in high hope. For three or four months, the goose hung l- hung high.
• 14:41
  I went to town regularly and even made a little money. Surely this was the answer: self-knowledge. But it was not, for the frightful day came when I drank once more.
• 14:54
  The curve of my declining moral and bodily health fell off like a ski jump. After a time, I returned to the hospital. This was the finish, the curtain, it seemed to me.
• 15:08
  My weary and despairing wife was informed that it would all end with heart failure during delirium tremens, or I would develop a wet brain, perhaps within a year.
• 15:19
  She would soon have to give me over to the undertaker or the asylum. They did not need to tell me. I knew and almost welcomed the idea. It was a devastating blow to my pride.
• 15:33
  I, who had thought so well of myself and my abilities, of my capacity to surmount obstacles, was cornered at last. Now I was to plunge into the dark, joining that endless procession of sots who had gone on before.
• 15:46
  I thought of my poor wife. There had been much happiness after all. What would I not give to make amends? But that was over now. No words can tell of the loneliness and despair I found in that bitter morass of self-pity.
• 16:00
  Quicksand stretched a- stretched around me in all directions. I had met my match. I had been overwhelmed. Alcohol was my master. Trembling, I stepped from the hospital a broken man. Fear sobered me for a bit.
• 16:13
  Then came the insidious insanity of that first drink, and on Armistice Day nineteen thirty-four, I was off again.
• 16:21
  Everyone became resigned to the certainty that I would have to be shut up somewhere or would stumble along to a miserable end. How dark it is before the dawn. In reality, that was the beginning of my last debauch.
• 16:34
  I was soon to be catapulted into what I like to call the fourth dimension of existence. I was to know happiness, peace, and usefulness in a way of life that is incredibly more wonderful as time passes.
• 16:48
  Near the end of that bleak November, I sat drinking in my kitchen. With a certain satisfaction, I reflected that there was enough gin concealed about the house to carry me through that night and the next day.
• 16:59
  My wife was at work. I wondered whether I dared hide a full bottle of gin near the head of our bed. I would need it before daylight. My musing was interrupted by the telephone.
• 17:10
  The cheery voice of an old school friend asked if he might come over. He was sober. It was years since I could remember his coming to New York in that condition. I was amazed.
• 17:23
  Rumor had it that he had been committed for alcoholic insanity. I wondered how he had escaped. Of course, he would have dinner, and then I could drink openly with him.
• 17:34
  Unmindful of his welfare, I thought only of recapturing the spirit of other days. There was that time we had charted an airplane to complete a jag. His coming was an oasis in this dreary desert of futility.
• 17:49
  The very thing, an oasis. Drinkers are like that. The door opened, and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something about his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened?
• 18:05
  I pushed drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what had got into the fella. He wasn't himself. Come, what's all this about? I queried. He looked straight at me.
• 18:20
  Simply but smilingly, he said, I've got religion. I was aghast. So that was it. Last summer an alcoholic crackpot, now I suspected a little cracked about religion. He had that starry-eyed look.
• 18:36
  Yes, the old boy was on fire all right. But bless his heart, let him rant. Besides, my gin would last longer than his preaching. But he did no ranting.
• 18:48
  In a matter-of-fact way, he told how two men had appeared in court, persuading the judge to suspend his commitment. They told of a simple religious idea and a practical program of action.
• 19:01
  That was two months ago, and the result was self-evident. It worked. He'd come to pass his experience along to me if I cared to have it. I was shocked but interested. Certainly I was interested.
• 19:14
  I had to be, for I was hopeless. He talked for hours. Childhood memories rose before me. I could almost hear the sound of the preacher's voice as I sat on still Sundays, way over there on the hillside.
• 19:27
  There was that proffered temperance. Pledge I never signed. My grandfather's good-natured contempt of some church folk and their doings.
• 19:37
  His insistence that the spheres really had their music, but his denial of the preacher's right to tell him how he must listen. His fearlessness as he spoke of these things just before he died. These
• 19:51
  recollections welled up from the past. They made me swallow hard. That wartime day in old Winchester Cathedral came back again. I had always believed in a power greater than myself. I had often pondered these things.
• 20:06
  I was not an atheist. Few people really are, for that means blind faith in the strange proposition that this universe originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes nowhere.
• 20:17
  My intellectual heroes, the chemists, the astronomers, even the evolutionists suggested vast laws and forces at work. Despite contrary indications, I had little doubt that a mighty purpose and rhythm underlay all.
• 20:31
  How could there be so much of a precise and immutable law and no intelligence? I simply had to believe in a spirit of the universe, but who knew neither time nor limitation. But that was as far as I had gone.
• 20:46
  With ministers and the world's religions, I parted right there. When we talked of a God personal to me who was love, superhuman strength and direction, I became irritated and my mind snapped shut against such a theory.
• 21:01
  To Christ I conceded the certainty of a great man, not too closely followed by those who claimed him. His moral teaching most excellent. For myself I had adopted those parts which seemed convenient and not too difficult.
• 21:15
  The rest I discarded. The wars which had been fought, the burnings and chickenery that religious dispute had facilitated made me sick. I honestly doubted whether, on balance, the religions of mankind had done any good.
• 21:32
  Judging from what I had seen in Europe and since, the power of God in human affairs was negligible. The brotherhood of man a grim jest. If there was a devil, he seemed the boss universal and he certainly had me.
• 21:47
  But my friend sat before me and he made the point-blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself. His human will had failed. Doctors had pronounced him incurable.
• 22:01
  Society was about to lock him up. Like myself, he had admitted complete defeat.
• 22:07
  Then he had in effect been raised from the dead, suddenly taken from the scrap heap to a level of life better than the best he had ever known. Had this power originated in him? Obviously it had not.
• 22:21
  There had been no more power in him than there was in me at that moment, and this was none at all. That floored me. It began to look as though religious people were right after all.
• 22:33
  Here was something at work in a human heart which had done the impossible. My ideas about miracles were drastically revised right then. Never mind the musty past. Here sat a miracle directly across the kitchen table.
• 22:47
  He shouted great tidings. I saw that my friend was much more than inwardly reorganized. He was on a different footing. His roots grasped a new soil.
• 23:00
  Despite the living example of my friend, there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy.
• 23:09
  When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me, this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea.
• 23:17
  I could go for such conceptions as creative intelligence, universal mind, or spirit of nature, but I resisted the thought of a czar of the heavens, however loving his sway might be.
• 23:28
  I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, why don't you choose your own conception of God? That statement hit me hard.
• 23:41
  It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a power greater than myself.
• 23:55
  Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness, I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would.
• 24:11
  Thus I was convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view.
• 24:25
  The real significance of my experience in the cathedral burst upon me. For a brief moment I had needed and wanted God. There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me, and He came.
• 24:37
  But soon the sense of His presence had been blotted out by worldly clamors, mostly those within myself. And so it had been ever since. How blind I had been! At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time.
• 24:53
  Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens. There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction.
• 25:10
  I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing, that without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my newfound friend take them away, root and branch.
• 25:24
  I have not had a drink since. My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment.
• 25:37
  I expressed my entire willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong. Never was I to be critical of them. I was to right all such matters to the utmost of my ability.
• 25:49
  I was to test my thinking by the new God-consciousness within. Common sense would thus become uncommon sense.
• 25:58
  I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me. Never was I to pray for myself, except as my requests bore on my usefulness to others.
• 26:13
  Then only might I expect to receive. But that would be in great measure.
• 26:19
  My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new relationship with my Creator, that I would have the elements of a way of living which answered all my problems.
• 26:30
  Belief in the power of God, plus enough willingness, honesty, and humility to establish and maintain the new order of things, were the essential requirements. Simple, but not easy. A price had to be paid.
• 26:45
  It meant destruction of self-centeredness. I must turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all.
• 26:53
  These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I fully accepted them the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never known.
• 27:05
  There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up as though the great clean wind of a mountaintop blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound.
• 27:19
  For a moment I was alarmed and called my friend the doctor to ask if I were still sane. He listened in wonder as I talked.
• 27:26
  Finally he shook his head saying, Something has happened to you I don't understand, but you had better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way you were. The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences.
• 27:39
  He knows that they are real. While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have what I had been given so freely to me.
• 27:52
  Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others. My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs.
• 28:02
  Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic.
• 28:13
  For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice to others he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead.
• 28:23
  If he did not work he would surely drink again and if he drank he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that.
• 28:34
  My wife and I abandoned ourselves with enthusiasm to the idea of helping other alcoholics to a solution of their problems.
• 28:42
  It was fortunate for my old business associates remained skeptical for a year and a half during which I found little work. I was not too well at the time and was plagued by waves of self-pity and resentment.
• 28:56
  This sometimes nearly drove me back to drink but I soon found that when all measures failed work with another alcoholic would save the day. Many times I have gone to my old hospital in despair.
• 29:09
  On talking to a man there I would be amazingly lifted up and set on my feet. It is a design for living that works in rough going.
• 29:19
  We commenced to make many fast friends and a fellowship has grown up among us of which it is a wonderful thing to feel a part. The joy of living we really have even under pressure and difficulty.
• 29:33
  I have seen hundreds of families set their feet in the path that really goes somewhere. I have seen the most impossible domestic situations righted, feuds and bitterness of all sorts wiped out.
• 29:47
  I have seen men come out of asylums and resume a vital place in the lives of their families and communities. Business and professional men have regained their standing.
• 29:58
  There is scarcely any form of trouble and misery which has not been overcome among us. In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our families.
• 30:11
  We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from fifty to two hundred persons we are growing in numbers and power.
• 30:24
  An alcoholic in his cups is an unlovely creature. Our struggles with them are variously strenuous, comic, and tragic. One poor chap committed suicide in my home. He could not, or would not, see our way of life.
• 30:38
  There is, however, a vast amount of fun about it all. I suppose some would be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity, but just underneath there is deadly earnestness.
• 30:48
  Faith has to work 24 hours a day in and through us or we perish. Most of us feel we need to look no further for Utopia. We have, we have it with us right here and now.
• 31:00
  Each day my friend's simple talk in our kitchen multiplies itself in a widening circle of peace on Earth and goodwill to men. Thanks for sharing, Bill. Thanks for sharing, Bill.
• 31:12
  [clapping] What are your thoughts about Bill's story? Well, first of all, I am glad we read it in its entirety. Mm. 'Cause it sits with me different than my previous reflection on it usually- Mm-hmm... does.
• 31:29
  I'll, I'll pick out one piece
• 31:31
  that, that maybe we can talk about for just a second, and that's when Ebby visited him for the first time, and he had that first encounter with this old school friend who by Bill's own admission, you know, he's drinking in front of him, offering him booze.
• 31:49
  The guy's a couple months sober, and Bill's just kind of curious- Mm-hmm... because here I am trying to chase old times. Mm-hmm. And I really identified with that- Mm-hmm... idea- Mm-hmm...
• 32:01
  as my drinking progressed of- Mm... really wanting to chase old times. Yeah. And, and I can be guilty of that in sobriety too. Not of chasing old drunken times, but just that- Mm-hmm...
• 32:14
  the nostalgia of times past, whatever the case may be. Mm-hmm. Um, living in a, trying to live in an unreality. Right.
• 32:24
  And, uh, and the, the piece I wanted to ask you about, uh, and, and I'll share just, uh, briefly for myself, was the first time that you found yourself talking and actually relating to another alcoholic. Mm-hmm.
• 32:40
  'Cause for me, and, you know, it may not have been the same for you, but, but it was kind of a pivotal moment for me. Mm. It was before I sobered up. Mm.
• 32:49
  You know, it was, it was pre, uh, pre-Cornerstone, so way before I went down to Mississippi, uh, but my parents had hooked me up with one of the guys, one of the counselors at Cornerstone. Mm.
• 33:03
  Uh, this old guy named Gardner, and he's, he's since passed away. You know, an old-timer, sober himself decades I think. Um, but I remember sitting in his office.
• 33:14
  I, I think I remember the initial meeting where, you know, I wasn't admitted yet, but it was like a conversation with another alcoholic. I mean, I didn't know what I was walking into. Yeah.
• 33:24
  But there were the beginnings of even before I had anything close to a willingness to, to do any of this, there were the beginnings of a camaraderie- Mm... that I, I later found was unique because we shared,
• 33:41
  uh, in, in that instance no recovery experience, but the common malady- Mm... of alcoholism. Mm-hmm. And he, I don't even remember what the dude said. Yeah.
• 33:51
  Um, but just shared some of his story and, and I found myself, uh, strangely drawn to- Mm... to that camaraderie. Mm. And ended up going to treatment there for, you know, short term- Mm-hmm...
• 34:05
  a little while later and [smacks lips] had, had s- somewhat of a, uh, dialogue with him thereafter for a bit. What is it that he had that you wanted?
• 34:15
  I remember a piece about him, and it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, un-genuine. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 34:21
  There was a, a, a raw, a raw piece to him where I knew he wasn't just full of shit, and he had lived, and he had gone through some stuff, and here I was just a, a dumb kid, and I felt like a dumb kid.
• 34:36
  [laughs] Not like he was demeaning me in any way, but- Sure. Sure... but I felt as though I was in the presence of, yeah, this guy is a man and- Right. Right... uh, and, and, and there's something- Mm...
• 34:50
  he's turned a corner that maybe I should turn- Mm... or think about turning- Mm... at some point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's cool. Um,
• 34:59
  just the, you know, your first thought there, just, like, chasing the nostalgia. Mm. Um, I mean, part of that's like the, the sinisterness of the addiction, I think, um, just highlighting the good times
• 35:15
  over the bad times, uh, you know, such that we remember those good times. But I also think, like,
• 35:22
  I can remember this point being made to me a long, long time early in my sober experience, but that, like, the good times were... There were good times, and there were fun times. And, and to pretend like they weren't
• 35:38
  almost does your story a disservice. Um, and I think, like, there is something alluring to the positive experiences that we had stoned or drunk or whatever, man. 'Cause, like, I can remember having fun. Oh, yeah.
• 35:58
  You know, only this far into sobriety do I remember how terrible it was also. But especially early in the experience, it's like, yeah, dude, I can remember that. You know, and then that idea of him like,
• 36:12
  "Let's, we're gonna relive the glory days. Bet. It's on. He's coming over. It's gonna be fun, you know? It's gonna be, like, we're, you know?" [laughs] Uh, and he's met with this, uh, this...
• 36:22
  I like how you described it, just this, like, peace. You know, it's not, it's not pretentious, it's not disingenuine. It's not even, [lips smack] uh, it's not even manipulative.
• 36:36
  You know, it's not even like this guy's, like, on this mission and it's like- Yeah, yeah... he's got a track to read, and like, "We're gonna convert you."
• 36:44
  You know, it's more just like, "Nah, bro, let me tell you my story." You know, which is, uh, I think another reason it's, that's cool that we read this. Um, but you know, I'm, I don't know that I ever,
• 36:59
  I don't know that I ever had that type of intervention- Mm-hmm... or that type of, of meeting or, uh, with anybody. Like, I'm racking my brain and I don't think I, I, I had anything remotely close to that. Yeah, really.
• 37:16
  Um, yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to even remember that. Like I, mm-mm. Nobody in my sphere was associated with anybody that was, like, sober.
• 37:31
  I never put myself in situations to encounter people that were sober. My poor parents, I mean, they were just overwhelmed. They didn't, you know, they didn't know what to do. Yeah.
• 37:41
  Like, I think in their cohort, I was kind of the first outlier- Mm-hmm... kid who, like, had this problem, and so I don't even think they knew where to turn or, or what to do.
• 37:54
  You know, I mean, I guess if there was somebody that was sober, it was my therapist at the time, but, like, I didn't view that as, like, sobriety. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? [laughs] That was therapy.
• 38:05
  Right, that was therapy. In its own sphere. Totally. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, man, I don't know. I think I missed, I missed that. I didn't have that opportunity to confront,
• 38:16
  uh, and experience that sort of incongruency and- Mm-hmm... and like you were saying, like, I'm sitting with, like, a man, and I feel like such a boy. Yeah. I just surrounded myself with boys. Mm-hmm. [laughs] You know?
• 38:30
  Uh, we didn't have any men in our lives. Yeah. We were just... Yeah, I was surrounded by boys. What about when you sobered up? [lips smack] Well, I mean, it was at COPAC.
• 38:44
  What were the first relationships, like, healthy ones like, or were, or were there any? Uh, healthy is debatable. [laughs] Right? I mean, we're all just- Yeah, right. But, but no, like, that's...
• 38:56
  Like, I definitely experienced that camaraderie. Mm-hmm. And the common fruit was, um, drugs and alcohol. Mm-hmm.
• 39:09
  You know, that's what elicited the camaraderie, and, and, and it was this cool experience that, um, it transcended socioeconomic status. It, it transcended color. It transcended dialect.
• 39:25
  It transcended intelligence, and it was like, "Nah, dude, we're all, we all got this problem." Mm-hmm. You know? And, and we all... Well, I shouldn't say all. Most of us were there to get better.
• 39:43
  You know, the outliers were the ones that were there to not get better- Right... and it was easy to identify them, and I knew I didn't want, I didn't want what they had. Yeah. I didn't know what I wanted, you know? Yeah.
• 39:56
  But I knew that, like, that's not what I'm here for. Like, I'm here to get better. Yeah. And so I surrounded myself with people who had that same desire. Like, we're here to get better.
• 40:08
  We don't know how this is gonna happen, but we're here to get better. Mm-hmm. You know? And then I guess, like, you have the on-site, uh, AA meetings, and that was my introduction to AA. Yeah. You know?
• 40:21
  But I think once I got passes to get out, uh, and go to in-person AA meetings and be able to leave treatment, maybe that's where I first encountered, um, men. Yeah. You know?
• 40:36
  And, and men in the sense that, like, these guys were here to lead me and to help me, uh, and, and to mentor me, um, towards that, that peace that they had. Mm. Um,
• 40:52
  yeah, so, so I think that's how I, I, how I encountered it. It wasn't, it wasn't ever, it wasn't ever during my addiction. There was, there was no pre-game. No. Yeah.
• 41:03
  And it was very, very on the cusp of my first venture. And of course, I had a first venture here into treatment and got my exposure, what that was July-ish before I went to Mississippi in November-ish.
• 41:17
  So I had a few months- Mm-hmm... of, like, exposure to some solutions and some positive stuff that I didn't really, you know, didn't take- Mm-hmm... for very long, uh, before getting shipped off. Mm-hmm. Uh- Mm-hmm...
• 41:33
  what do you think about, and this'll, this'll harken back to some comments you've made- Mm... just about the expediency of the step work. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause I, I love that, again, just the emphasis here.
• 41:49
  You know, they, they basically sit down and get it done. Yep. It's like, let's- Yep... let's go. [laughs] Yep. Yep. Uh, back to the how quick do you wanna get better situation, a- and I- Right. Right...
• 41:59
  as you, I think you were reading that part of it- Mm-hmm... in the reading today, and I was like, man, we're really just- Mm... kinda wusses today. Mm-hmm. And m- my, speaking for myself as well, like,
• 42:14
  it, we, we got the solution. Right. Just go after it. Stop putting stuff, stop putting off 'em in. Stop putting off, you know, the first runs through this, but- Right...
• 42:23
  but then for myself, like, stop sitting on the solution just in everyday living. Mm-hmm. Uh, k- kind of a gut check for me- Mm-hmm... uh, reading through that piece of it. Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:33
  It's like, okay, kitchen table, step work. Right. All of it. Right. Not, not like-... third step or- Right, right... fifth s-, you know, it's like- Right... just get 'er done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:44
  I mean, there's definitely, um, whatever, y'all out there, take it as you want. There's definitely, like, this coddling, I think, that can be,
• 42:55
  uh, prevalent in the recovery community these days of like, "Well, we're gonna do step one, and we're gonna- Mm... no, we're not gonna rush through it.
• 43:03
  We gotta really, you know, we gotta sit on it, step one, for a while." You know? And then it, like, a lot of times the sponsor's in this position to judge whether or not the person is done with their step. Yeah.
• 43:16
  Whether it's one, two, three, four. "Well, I don't think you've quite got step three yet, so let's go back to st- " You know? Like, come on, man, that's not what you encounter in Bill's story. Mm. Now, yes,
• 43:28
  Bill was in a very desperate spot, for sure, and I think that's evident just by the continual just pattern of relapse and the, the DTs that he was in.
• 43:38
  And so, yeah, I think desperate people are willing to be like, "Yeah, I'm here to do whatever." Um,
• 43:44
  but, uh, but I also think there is a lot of value of being able to really get through these steps and get to what I think is what he focuses on there for a little bit towards the end, the real solution. Mm.
• 44:00
  And that's carrying the message forward and giving it to others. Like, bro, we know that in our experience, that's what helps. Yeah. All the other stuff is preparation for that, for sure. But like, man, why do we delay
• 44:15
  the addict's ability to go give his, uh, his story to other people? Like, "You're not ready to tell your story. You're not qualified." You know, like, what? I don't know. I don't know.
• 44:27
  And I get it, there are certain situations that require that. For sure. You know, but I've, I've always been a fan of, like, we're getting through this, and we're gonna get through it, like, this weekend.
• 44:38
  [laughs] You know? Like, block your schedule, do whatever you need to do. [sneezes] You know, you pay now or you pay later, so let's get moving. Well, I mean, I, I remember my sponsor doing that same thing with me.
• 44:50
  You know, I was sitting on a four-step for, like, not even long in today's standards, like a week or so. Mm. And he's like, "Dude, next weekend- Mm-hmm...
• 45:00
  you're com- or, like, this weekend in however many days, you're coming to my house on Saturday morning." Yeah. "So whatever it takes, get it done- Mm-hmm... before Saturday morning." Right. Um, and- Right... and I did.
• 45:10
  And you know, the, the surprising, or maybe not anymore, but the thing is, once I sat down to do it, like, it's... It doesn't take years. No. It doesn't take days. Right.
• 45:25
  I mean, it could, could take a few days, depending on how quickly you can write stuff down. Mm-hmm. It's not rocket science, man. No. And furthermore, it doesn't have to be perfect anyway. Nope.
• 45:35
  We just gotta go after it. Right. Right, right. Yeah. It's, um, this isn't an original thought, but, like, um,
• 45:48
  I won't name him, but, like, there's a prominent psychologist out there who is big into, like, mythological and narrative structure and just, like, how these narratives seem to exist throughout, like, all stories, but, like, even our own stories.
• 46:03
  And it just reminds me of the tyranny, uh, like the tyrant is alcohol, you know, and you escape the tyrant.
• 46:09
  You escape the unruly tyrant to emerge into the chaos, the chaos of the, of the desert, the wandering in the desert. Mm.
• 46:17
  Um, you know, if you think Pharaoh and the Israelites, you know, they escaped the tyranny of Pharaoh only to find themselves wandering in sort of, like, f- you know, just, ooh, out in the, out in the desert. Um,
• 46:31
  and I think, like, that's what can happen to a lot of us in early recovery without the Ten Commandments, so to speak, without the guide rails, um, a- and without the 12 steps. Mm-hmm. You know?
• 46:44
  And I think, like, it again speaks to, I think, the necessity of getting people through the steps and working them through the steps and exposing them to the steps
• 46:53
  pretty quickly and pretty early on so that they don't experience all of the chaos and the danger and the fears that are out there in the desert, like, as they wander around. Um,
• 47:06
  and, and yeah, just like, you know, the Israelites, they're... Suddenly they're invited into this promised land, you know, and the promised land is, like, to me, like, what occurs in meetings.
• 47:19
  Like, you're welcomed into the promised land. Mm. You know, yeah, here's the guide rails. Here's the tenets. You don't just get to come in and just wreak havoc.
• 47:29
  Uh, but no, you get to come into the promised land, and you get to experience this gift of sobriety that's not just for a select few but that is, like, meant for all. You gotta, you gotta have the commandments.
• 47:41
  You gotta obey the commandments to the best of your ability. You gotta work the steps to the best of your ability. But once you're here, brother, you're here. Mm. You know?
• 47:50
  And yeah, we slip, and we fall, and we have to go back, and we have to make more amends, and we... Some days are better than others, but, like, you're here. Yeah. You know? I don't know. One more piece here
• 48:07
  on page 12. Mm-hmm. Uh, "It was only a matter of being willing to believe- Mm-hmm... in a power greater than myself. Nothing more was required for me to make my beginning." Um, and I,
• 48:24
  you know, shock or no surprise, like, the God issue is, is a hangup for so many people that walk in the doors. And yet, case in point, the very founder of this whole book and program and whatnot had the same issues. Mm.
• 48:40
  And was like, "You know, Christ, he's a great Was a great leader. You know, everybody that tried to follow him, you know, has pretty much been a wash ever since. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 48:49
  You know, net, the net good it's done, debatable. It's true. Negligible, like you said. True. Um, and it's, it's just, it's... I've seen it time and again, the truth in the sentence I just read, though. Mm-hmm.
• 49:06
  Like, you don't even have to believe- Mm... to start doing the practical work.
• 49:12
  Um, but the flip side of that, and the part that, uh, fellow Christians, uh, ha- take issue with AA about, is the openness of not having to believe. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and I would, I would counter that with,
• 49:28
  well, all we're talking about is a beginning. Mm-hmm. And my interest in AA as a, as a man of faith and as someone who's come back to a faith I grew up with,
• 49:40
  my interest in AA is much more emphasized on this dude not killing himself- Mm... drinking- Right... in the beginning- Right... and sobering up so that God- Mm...
• 49:54
  not me, not you, but God can come in and do a work if He's going to. Right. So that, so that he can put himself in a position of willingness to believe in something even if he doesn't. Right. Um. Right.
• 50:07
  And, and I just, I always like, I always like those parts of it. Mm-hmm. And, and I understand, like, the, the on guard of Christians, you know, taking offense to that, honestly. Sure. Sure.
• 50:20
  Um, but, but in, in recent years especially, I've grown just much more firm- Mm... in my stance on that. Mm. It's like, you know what? I, I don't have, I don't do anything to sober somebody else up. That's all- Right.
• 50:35
  If I believe that that's all God- Right... and Him working and Him drawing my heart to Him, then that's the case for you and for anybody else out there. Yeah. And, and let's save their ass first- Mm. Mm...
• 50:47
  so that they have a chance- Right... uh, down the road. Right. Right. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. Um, just being willing to believe in something. Like, let's get their foot in the door. Mm.
• 51:06
  You know what I mean? Like, we shouldn't have this, this, uh, standard that feels exclusionary to people. Like, it should be very, very inclusive. The entry point should be so inclusive that anyone can do it.
• 51:20
  Now, obviously anyone cannot do it because there is this willingness piece that has to be engaged- Yeah... first. Like, I have to be willing to believe. Yeah. Uh, and like you said, once the foot gets in the door,
• 51:33
  okay, now, yeah, our prayers as believers is that the Lord will do the work. The Lord will do the work now. Now, here's where I do have a rub, though, all right? Here's where I do have a rub. Let's go.
• 51:49
  Step two and three I think do require you to believe in something. Mm. And I think that's crucial
• 51:57
  because it, it changes from a willingness to a belief, and not just a belief, and a belief in something that will get you sober. Mm. Right?
• 52:08
  So if step two is came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Right? That's step two. Yep. Um, so there's the formulative piece, right?
• 52:20
  The first is this admittance of powerlessness that should also accompany a certain willingness to get them in the door.
• 52:27
  Um, the second piece is beginning to conceptualize what is this thing that I am willing to believe in? Well, the third piece is surrender to that conceptualization. Mm-hmm. Okay?
• 52:41
  And it's not just, like, surrender a little bit. I'm surrendering my will and my life, as the step says, over to the care of God- Yeah... with the caveat, as we understand Him.
• 52:56
  I don't, that doesn't even bother me because I, at that point, this person is turning their in- their will and their life over to the care of the conceptualization that they came to in step two. Mm. I'm sorry,
• 53:12
  but I don't think that works if my God as I understand Him is a tree. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry. What about a redwood? It doesn't work.
• 53:26
  [laughs] Because I'm going to surrender my will and my life over to the care of the freaking tree? Nah. That doesn't make sense, okay?
• 53:38
  So the idea that like, oh, well, your higher power can be a lamp, it can be a doorknob. No, it can't. Yeah. Unless you are just engaging in just an absolute expedition into tomfoolery- Yeah...
• 53:54
  that's not gonna work because you c- you, you're gonna turn your will and your life over to the doorknob? I don't know how that works, okay? So then there's even the argument of, like, this collective thing, right?
• 54:06
  This, this tap into this collective- Right... the Jungian collective unconscious, the group. Gr- group of drunks. Right, the group. G.O.D. The group is going to be my higher power. Okay. So
• 54:20
  I come back to it, though, but you're going to turn your will, you're going to give your will and your life to the group,
• 54:30
  to a bunch of people that are fallible and who have, if we're honest, no idea what's happening- Mm... and no idea what's going on. Again, it makes no sense at all.
• 54:41
  Like, I'm gonna surrender my will over to this, to this guy. I love him, love him. He's in, he's in my AA group and I love the guy, but he's full of snakes just like all of us are, just like I am.
• 54:52
  Just like everybody else is. But I'm gonna turn my will over to Him. That doesn't sound like a good idea. That doesn't sound like a good... So all that to say, like, yes, the willingness gets your foot in the door. Yeah.
• 55:05
  But I think in order to truly receive the gift that Bill is describing in this story, and the transformation that he is describing in this story, it has to be God, capital G God. Hmm.
• 55:23
  It has to be. Now, yes, this is a discussion for another day. I can't wait. Because lots... Well, lots of people have been burned by God. Yeah. And I understand that. For sure.
• 55:34
  And, and to take that step, uh, requires for them, like suspending their reality- Right... and their experience of who God has been to them. Yeah. But I think that's the crucial piece. That is who God has been to them.
• 55:49
  It is not who God can be to them today, and it's not who God can be to them in the future. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And that's where I think the story piece comes in, and the working with a sponsor comes in.
• 56:02
  Working with, like, a guy like yourself, working with a guy like me, who can give them a picture of God that is redemptive, and that is curative, and that is restorative, uh, and that can [laughs]
• 56:16
  and is faithful to remove their sins from them as far as the east is from the west, and remember them no more. That's the promise of God.
• 56:25
  And that's the promise that I think is most effective to this book, and to our experience as alcoholics and, and drug addicts, is step four- Hmm... and step five, this confession.
• 56:39
  And it's not just confession to the fucking doorknob- Hmm... or to the tree.
• 56:43
  It's to God Almighty, who promises, like, as we are faithful to confess to Him and to our sins, He is faithful to remove them as far as the east is from the west and remember them no more. That's what restores.
• 56:55
  I'm sorry, I don't think that confession to the doorknob is gonna get you there.
• 57:01
  Well, and, and none of this works, even back to Ebby and Bill's experience, none of it works without that common bond of the passing it on, God working through those that have gone before us.
• 57:13
  And Ebby even mentioned it there about the dudes, whoever those jokers were, that came to him in the hospital. Right. Shared these practical steps- Right... this spiritual program of action. It's like, oh, well, okay.
• 57:25
  Mm-hmm. And sure enough- Mm-hmm... you know, found, reestablished that relationship with, with his God. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Awesome. Hmm. Can't wait. Next week we dive into there is a solution. Yeah, we're talking.
• 57:38
  So, so this just primed us up. We got the whole, the whole swath with Bill's story of- Yeah... of all the steps. Now we're primed up to get into the, the nitty-gritty. Yeah. Step two. Yeah. Out of the gate. Yeah.
• 57:49
  Let's go. [laughs] Let's go. Catch you next time. All right. Always a pleasure. Likewise. [upbeat music]