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15: Seeking After God · Finding God at Work

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  (Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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  This is Finding God at Work.
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  Our current series is Gentle Witnesses, sharing the
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  good news at work in a way that
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  actually makes sense.
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  I want to talk about house hunting, house
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  shopping.
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  My mom is one of those people who
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  is just kind of perpetually interested in houses.
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  She might have an afternoon where she's running
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  some errands, you know, maybe on the way
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  to get something from Target or pick up
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  some groceries.
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  And she's just like, oh, look, a for
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  sale sign.
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  Let's go look at it.
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  And it's like, she has no need for
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  a new home.
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  She and my dad are not like real
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  estate investors.
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  They're, they're content in their current environments.
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  But she's just, she just wants to know
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  like, oh, that's what it's going for.
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  Look what neighborhood it's in.
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  And, and wouldn't it be nice to think
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  about possibilities here?
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  And it's just part of her imaginative approach
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  to American suburbia is houses are there to
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  be looked at.
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  And, and when my wife Katie and I
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  were renting, we sometimes did similar things.
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  For us, it was more aspirational.
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  It was like, oh, wouldn't it be nice
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  to, to live in a house like that?
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  Or could we afford to live in a
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  house like that?
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  Or what would it be like to have
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  that kind of backyard?
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  Or what do we think about this kind
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  of neighborhood?
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  This all still remained pretty abstract.
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  It was, it was academic.
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  It was imaginative.
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  It wasn't really about how we were living
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  our lives in the moment.
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  And the year was 2021.
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  And we kind of had this plan that
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  we would maybe start hunting for a house
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  in 2023.
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  So still, you know, nothing urgent.
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  We were going to church in a city
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  called Aurora in Illinois.
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  That's still where we live and do ministry
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  and other things.
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  And so I occasionally after church before driving
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  home, I would be like, well, let me
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  just drive through the east side of Aurora
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  and see, oh, that's an interesting house.
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  I wonder how much that is, you know,
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  pop on Zillow, take a look.
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  But, but still, it was just, it was
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  just a bit in our toes in the
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  water.
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  Okay, then in the fall of 2021, I
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  took another look at our budget and I
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  was like, we don't have to wait till
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  2023.
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  Like we do this now, like we could,
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  we could just save up for a few
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  more months and we have a down payment
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  like we should, we should do this, we
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  should go.
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  And suddenly, I went from this like meandering
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  sort of interest in houses to like actively
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  seeking houses.
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  I was on Zillow.
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  I was setting up notifications of different search
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  parameters.
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  I was driving through neighborhoods in Aurora all
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  the time.
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  I was calling my buddy who was a
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  real estate agent.
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  I was, it changed.
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  I was on a mission.
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  I was seeking.
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  I was going to, I was going to
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  find that house.
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  Not no matter what it costs, because we
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  definitely had a budget limit, but like, I
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  was going to make it happen.
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  We were going to find an answer.
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  We were going to find a point of
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  resolution and we did and we bought our
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  home on Cinco de Mayo 2022 before interest
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  rates continued to skyrocket even higher.
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  So I'm glad, glad we did when we
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  did.
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  And we found, we found that home on
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  the east side of Aurora, much closer to
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  our church.
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  It's been a great place for us to
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  live.
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  I'm in that house as I record this
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  episode in my little office.
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  And it's, it's amazing.
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  I'm so glad for God's provision in our
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  lives.
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  What's the point of this illustration?
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  There's a difference between having a kind of
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  meandering interest in something and actively seeking it.
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  Because when you're actively seeking it, you rearrange
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  your life to make the pursuit possible.
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  You are trying to get to an answer.
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  And that is the next threshold of our
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  five thresholds we've been looking at.
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  So we've already seen how for many people
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  who come to faith in Christ that go
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  through these five stages or five thresholds, starts
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  with trusting a Christian friend, then becoming curious,
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  which may be intellectual, then becoming open, open
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  to personal change, which we just talked about
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  in our past couple episodes.
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  And then the fourth threshold is seeking, seeking
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  after God, when the pursuit becomes urgent, when
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  it becomes clear.
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  So this again is from the book I
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  once was lost by Don Evertson, Doug Shoup,
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  a seeker on a quest.
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  Those who have recently traveled the path to
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  faith tell us that after trusting a Christian,
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  becoming curious about Jesus, and finally being open
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  to change in their life, they still weren't
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  necessarily wanting to come to conclusions.
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  For each of them, there was another shift,
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  a fourth threshold to come.
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  They needed to lean into the journey they
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  were on and decide to purposefully seek final
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  answers, a resolution, they needed to become seekers.
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  Having a friend become a seeker is a
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  delightful part of the journey to faith in
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  Jesus.
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  It is fun and dynamic.
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  We may not notice a big change in
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  their behavior when they switch from just being
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  open to change to actually being a seeker.
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  But to them, the internal shift is rather
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  dramatic.
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  Their choice to become a seeker is when
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  the penny drops.
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  I have some questions that I need answers
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  to.
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  I need to make a decision about Jesus.
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  True seekers are on a quest.
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  They want to connect dots and come to
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  conclusions.
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  Their questions aren't dodging techniques or casual inquiries.
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  They are genuinely looking for some concrete answers.
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  Okay, I have been, by God's grace, at
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  this moment with some different friends.
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  And it is so exciting.
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  It is so exciting when somebody is actually
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  like, I got to figure out what's going
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  on with Jesus.
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  I need to move just from this place
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  of sort of meandering openness to spiritual things
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  to a resolution.
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  Am I going to follow Jesus or not?
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  Do you?
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  So of course this is incredibly exciting because
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  of the urgency.
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  And the urgency is actually supported by the
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  research.
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  The research that InterVarsity and others did in
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  kind of finding and naming these five thresholds
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  shows that people tend to stay in it
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  for only about three months.
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  Now, why is that?
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  Well, because it's extremely uncomfortable.
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  Just like we talked about how people may
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  be hesitant to be open, because it involves
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  kind of re-evaluating your very self, your
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  need for change, the idea that Jesus could
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  have an influence on your life, seeking is
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  even more dramatic.
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  Because now it's like, okay, I'm not just
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  open to the idea of change.
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  If the if the change is real, like
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  I'm probably going to go for it.
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  It's that movement forward to a crisis.
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  And that requires rearranging your entire life.
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  If the good news is true, if Jesus
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  actually is who he said he is, you
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  have to rearrange all of your life priorities
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  forever.
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  So of course, it's a pretty radical undertaking
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  to honestly and thoroughly seek Jesus in that
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  way.
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  And people can't stay there forever.
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  The cognitive dissonance of weighing two different ways
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  of living life is too powerful for people
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  to remain on the fence when they have
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  that sense of urgency.
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  They have to get to a point of
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  clarity.
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  And that sense of weighing the cost of
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  considering what would it do to me and
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  do to my life if I actually embraced
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  this way.
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  That's exactly the stakes that Jesus sets when
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  he talks about what it means to follow
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  him.
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  So this comes from Luke chapter 14, starting
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  in verse 25.
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  Large crowds were traveling with Jesus and turning
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  to them.
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  He said, if anyone comes to me and
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  does not hate father and mother, wife and
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  children, brothers and sisters, yes, even their own
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  life, such a person cannot be my disciple.
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  And whoever does not carry their cross and
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  follow me cannot be my disciple.
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  Suppose one of you wants to build a
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  tower.
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  Won't you first sit down and estimate the
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  cost to see if you have enough money
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  to complete it?
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  For if you lay the foundation and are
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  not able to finish it, everyone who sees
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  it will ridicule you, saying this person began
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  to build and wasn't able to finish.
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  Or suppose a king is about to go
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  to war against another king.
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  Won't you first sit down and consider whether
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  he is able with 10,000 men to
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  oppose one coming against him with 20,000?
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  If he is not able, he will send
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  a delegation while the other is still a
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  long way off and will ask for terms
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  of peace.
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  In the same way, those of you who
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  do not give up everything you have cannot
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  be my disciples.
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  Okay, this is one of those classic, like
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  tough sayings of Jesus passages.
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  He talks about hating your family members.
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  Like, what's that about?
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  But what he's saying is nothing can be
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  hidden from the influence of Jesus once you
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  become his disciple.
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  It's not like you can follow Jesus in
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  90% of your life and then keep
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  your spouse or your significant other or your
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  kids in that 10% and say like,
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  but Jesus doesn't get to touch that.
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  That's just for me.
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  It's total surrender.
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  It's saying, I'm taking up my cross, an
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  instrument of torture and death, just like Jesus
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  did.
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  I'm committing to him completely.
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  Okay, so Jesus says, if that's what it
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  takes, you should weigh whether you can do
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  that.
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  You should weigh whether you're really willing to
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  surrender.
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  If you don't have enough money to build
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  the tower, then you shouldn't try to build
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  it.
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  If you don't have enough soldiers to fight
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  the battle, you shouldn't try to fight it.
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  If you're not willing to surrender your whole
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  life to Jesus, you can't be his disciple.
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  This is one of Jesus's most black and
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  white teachings.
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  He's very extreme.
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  He's using kind of hyperbolic rhetoric to help
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  us grapple with what it means to really
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  enter into a way of life where he
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  changes who we are from the inside out.
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  And so that means that somebody who's in
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  the seeking stage should be weighing these things.
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  We don't want somebody to rush into something
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  without understanding what it means to step into
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  the kingdom of God as a follower of
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  Jesus.
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  So what can we do to help?
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  What can we do to help given that
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  the stakes are so high, that the timeline
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  is so finite, that the urgency is so
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  great, and that it's so exciting too.
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  Two things I would suggest.
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  We can include people, and we can help
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  people clarify their quest.
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  So what do I mean by including people?
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  Well, if you're like me, you have friends
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  who you don't necessarily invite to church because
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  you're like, I don't feel like church is
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  what they need right now.
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  Like they're a few steps away from like
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  what my church does on a Sunday morning
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  worship service being like beneficial for them.
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  Maybe someday they'll be at a point where
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  that would be beneficial for them.
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  But that's not where they're at today, right?
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  When somebody's at the seeking stage, start including
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  them in the things you didn't think they
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  were ready for before.
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  So like if you go to a Bible
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  study, even if it's not an evangelistic Bible
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  study, even if it's not designed for outsiders
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  or seekers, invite them to come along with
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  you when they're at this stage.
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  If you have a prayer time, right, invite
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  them to participate in your prayer time, right?
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  They might be curious like, what does prayer
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  look like for you?
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  If you're going on a prayer retreat, invite
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  them to come on the prayer retreat, even
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  though they're not a Christian yet.
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  Get them inside of community and as much
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  as you can, get them inside of the
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  four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
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  This period of time is the most fruitful
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  time for somebody to read the pages of
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  the Gospels, to hear Jesus's own words and
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  teachings and his own voice, to see his
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  miracles and his works in his own story,
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  and to begin to welcome him as the
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  living, breathing, resurrected, real Messiah that he is.
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  When they get their mind into Scripture and
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  begin dealing with Jesus there, they can begin
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  to deal with Jesus in real life and
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  begin to hear that call, follow me coming
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  from him in the present to them.
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  Okay, so include, including people by reading the
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  Bible with them, by including them in Christian
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  community, by praying with them, by showing them
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  how your Christian life looks, those aspects that
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  you might not do out in front with
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  certain friends, start to do out in front
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  with friends who are in the seeking stage.
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  The second thing you can do is help
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  them clarify their quest.
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  So this language again comes from inner varsity,
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  just like somebody, you know, maybe in that
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  meandering stage that they haven't started creating their
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  search parameters on Zillow yet, so to speak,
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  you can help them clarify their quest by
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  helping them focus on Jesus.
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  Right.
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  So again, obviously that happens naturally as you're
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  including them.
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  But you can also ask them specific questions
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  about Jesus.
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  So as as they're kind of in this
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  more active stage of figuring out what they
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  believe, you can ask them things like, well,
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  what do you think about Jesus?
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  Or who who do you think Jesus is?
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  Really?
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  One of the confusing points here is that
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  people may think that you have to have
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  all the right theological answers to every intellectual
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  question somebody might have.
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  This is a fruitful time for intellectual questions.
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  But I would say that we have to
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  approach this both in terms of the heart
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  and the mind together.
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  So somebody may have intellectual questions like mind
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  questions like how could a good God send
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  people to hell or how can Jesus be
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  the only way?
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  Aren't other religions valid or aren't there so
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  many contradictions in the Bible?
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  How can the Bible be the word of
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  God?
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  These things that we think of as kind
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  of like nuanced, difficult, challenging intellectual queries.
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  But even in those queries, the heart is
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  also asking a question.
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  And the fundamental question that the heart is
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  asking is, is Jesus trustworthy?
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  Can I trust Jesus?
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  Can I trust that he's real?
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  Can I trust that he is who he
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  said he was?
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  Can I trust him with my life?
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  That's a heart question.
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  And so that heart question can come through
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  in those intellectual questions.
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  So we can honor those intellectual questions by
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  trying to help somebody investigate those questions, whether
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  it's reading a book together or listening to
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  a podcast that addresses some of those questions,
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  reading the Bible together and seeing what does
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  the Bible itself say about some of those
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  questions, etc.
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  So we're honoring the mind, but we're aiming
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  for the heart.
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  And so you got to listen not just
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  for the question they're asking, but maybe for
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  the question behind the question, that what kind
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  of view of God do they have?
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  So they might ask how could God send
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  people to hell?
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  Well, that's a legitimate question in and of
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  itself.
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  That's like an intellectual question, doctrine of judgment,
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  doctrine of God's wrath, etc.
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  Lots of resources out there to help people
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  understand that.
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  But the question behind the question is, is
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  God good?
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  Can I trust that God is actually just
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  and right and fair and understanding in the
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  way that he interacts with everybody, not just
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  with a select few.
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  And of course, for those of us who
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  follow Jesus, that may be a question we've
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  personally asked in our own lives as well.
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  So that's a helpful thing to do as
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  well, that as you're helping people explore answers
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  to intellectual questions, you don't have to be
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  this flawless expert that has never had a
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  doubt in your life.
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  Being honest about the doubts that you've struggled
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  with is actually really helpful.
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  Just like in the openness stage, you're being
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  open, you're being vulnerable as appropriate.
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  In the seeking stage, you can explain, well,
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  what is it for you that clinched the
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  deal, even though you still have questions?
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  And that could be like your own narrative.
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  If you came to faith as an adult,
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  where like you had an intellectual questions and
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  then you came to faith anyways, or even
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  if you've had faith your whole life, no
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  doubt, there are questions that have come up
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  for you, but something has kept you as
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  a disciple of Jesus.
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  Well, what is that?
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  And so you can say like, yeah, you
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  know, it's hard for me to wrap my
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  mind around the idea of hell, but I
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  really believe that God is good.
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  And I see that goodness in the death
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  and resurrection of Jesus.
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  And I experience that goodness in my life.
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  And so I, I trust that he will
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  make a just decision about every human being,
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  even if some of that's beyond my understanding,
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  right?
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  Like that, that doesn't require, uh, you know,
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  a PhD in apologetics or theology or philosophy
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  or biblical studies, uh, in order to, to
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  share at the heart level, what you've experienced
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  and why you still believe it makes sense
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  to be a disciple of Jesus.
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  Now, if, if your friend has a super
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  intellectual bent and you don't find a Christian
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  friend who has a super intellectual bet and
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  let the, you know, let the nerds talk
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  to each other.
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  Um, and that can be really fruitful.
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  If you are a nerd like me and
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  you, you have lots of ideas about relevant
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  answers to all these questions, this is the
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  time, this is the time to actually talk
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  through those things with all of the intellectual
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  rigor, um, that you have, again, always doing
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  it gently, always pacing it to the curiosity
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  and openness that person demonstrates.
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  But if they're seeking, they're not looking for
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  you to beat around the bush.
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  They need answers.
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  Okay.
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  So clarify the quest.
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  We want to honor the mind, but aim
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  for the heart, help people answer their questions.
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  And also part of clarifying the quest is
• 16:31
  helping them count the cost, helping them understand
• 16:34
  what they're signing up for.
• 16:36
  If they say yes to Jesus.
• 16:38
  So if there's any aspect of Christian life
• 16:40
  that like maybe hasn't come up in conversation
• 16:42
  yet and that's kind of controversial now is
• 16:45
  also the time to get really honest about
• 16:47
  that.
• 16:47
  So we might think about like Jesus's teachings
• 16:49
  about money, where it's like, yeah, when, when
• 16:52
  you commit to following Jesus, you commit to
• 16:54
  radical generosity and dependence on God totally countercultural.
• 16:57
  Jesus's teachings on sexuality.
• 16:59
  Oh yeah.
• 17:00
  When you commit to follow Jesus, you are
• 17:01
  surrendering your whole being, including your sexuality to
• 17:04
  him and his teachings, which means you say
• 17:06
  no to every sexual relationship that doesn't align
• 17:08
  with, with God's purpose for human sexuality.
• 17:11
  Uh, Jesus's teachings about power and servanthood.
• 17:13
  So, you know, you want to, um, make
• 17:16
  it clear that obeying Jesus is part of
• 17:19
  the package, right?
• 17:21
  That, that when you become a disciple, you're
• 17:23
  learning a new way of life that's going
• 17:24
  to touch on everything in your life.
• 17:26
  And so if there's any of those like
• 17:28
  key questions, right, about money, about sexuality, about
• 17:31
  power that you haven't touched on yet in
• 17:34
  your friendship, now is a good time to,
• 17:35
  to bring those up, right?
• 17:36
  To give them reasons not to follow Jesus,
• 17:39
  so to speak, so that if, and when
• 17:41
  they're ready to take that step of committing
• 17:42
  to following Jesus, it's genuine.
• 17:45
  They have counted the cost.
• 17:47
  They're ready to say yes.
• 17:51
  Lord Jesus, we want to keep seeking after
• 17:53
  you.
• 17:54
  Um, we know even though we've found you,
• 17:57
  that we've put our faith in you, that
• 17:58
  we're following you.
• 17:59
  We also want you to keep finding us.
• 18:01
  We want to keep seeking you more and
• 18:02
  more help us to do that.
• 18:04
  As we invite others to seek you, as
• 18:06
  we help them clarify their quest for you.
• 18:10
  Do your work in us as we do
• 18:11
  our work with you.
• 18:18
  Thanks for listening.
• 18:19
  Finding God at work is a production of
• 18:21
  Mission Central, a ministry based in Aurora, Illinois,
• 18:24
  dedicated to forming Christians for mission and everyday
• 18:26
  life.
• 18:27
  You can subscribe to the podcast wherever you
• 18:29
  listen to this episode to get 10 minutes
• 18:31
  of teaching on faith and work every Tuesday
• 18:33
  and Thursday.
• 18:34
  To get resources to go deeper with each
• 18:36
  podcast series, read our blog and get info
• 18:39
  about upcoming courses on faith in the workplace,
• 18:41
  go to our website, mission central.church.