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The 5 o' Clock Shadow with Schalk Louw · Strictly Business

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You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams.
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JSC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the 5 o'clock shadow.
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And as always on a Wednesday, I speak to Skullclo, Portfolio Manager at PSG Wealth
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Old Oak in Cape Town.
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Skullclo, if I had said to you about three, four years ago, I said, look,
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I'm not doing anything in the market at the moment because I'm waiting for the
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results from NVIDIA.
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You'd probably say, what are you talking about?
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What's NVIDIA, first of all?
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And secondly, why are the results so important?
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You may have been away for quite a while.
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Let me put it like that.
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And you came back and I said that to you after three years of being away.
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Isn't it funny how things change so quickly these days?
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It is unbelievable.
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No, it is crazy to look at these, let's call it semiconductor,
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AR-related stocks.
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It's just...
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what they've done, how they've pretty much disrupt the world.
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I mean, are you playing around with AI yet, Lindsay?
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I fiddled a little bit and then I get discouraged because I'm not doing it
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properly.
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I mean, I'll go to one of them, chat GPT or Grok or Claude or there's another one
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called something.
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I don't know.
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I've got a whole load of them and I say, can you do this?
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And then they say, no, I'm sorry.
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Sorry, that's a public figure.
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You can't be.
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We don't do that to public figures.
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So I think, oh, blast.
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That was not so typically you.
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Then I try and do something else.
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And I find it really, really useful.
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I mean, I look for things that just pop into my head and I write down the most
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obscure
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nonsense and it rationalises it and it comes up with all the answers that I was
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looking for.
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Yes, I think it's absolutely brilliant.
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I'm, I'm...
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I'm scraping the surface with what I do.
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You probably do about three,
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four times the more sophisticated activities with AI than I do.
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And even you are nowhere near what the potential is.
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Yeah, I'm not even scratching the surface yet.
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So it is mind-boggling, mind-boggling to see what this does.
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And.
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Scary to a certain extent as well, because it's, you know, where are we going?
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It's just, I want to encourage you while I'm talking,
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I want to encourage you to go and listen to a or watch a YouTube clip.
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Yeah.
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By a gentleman.
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He actually, we were privileged to have him at our annual PSG conference.
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He came and gave a...
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a full presentation there.
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It's a gentleman called Mo, I'm going to really stuff up his surname.
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It's G-A-W-D-A-T, Gowdat.
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Yes.
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Mo Gowdat.
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Where's he from?
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And he, I think he's from Egypt, if I'm not mistaken, but he was a, he's an
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ex-Google exec.
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So he's high up in companies like Google and he's very much in the
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forefront of uh, well, where AI is going, what is it doing.
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And, I mean, just go and Google it.
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I mean, go to YouTube.
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There's a few very, very nice presentations.
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And I'm going to say again, it's Mo, M-O, and then G-A-W-D-O.
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I'll have a look.
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And you say, it's ex-Google.
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Is the YouTube clip that you refer to the presentation he gave at your conference,
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or is it something different?
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Very similar.
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Very similar.
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And it was about a it's got a 45-minute presentation and some of these clips are
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also that.
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But I mean, in essence, he said people tend to think that...
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We tend to say, Lindsay, you know what?
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In five to ten years' time, this is going to be a total disruptor.
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I mean, we're not going to do things in five to ten years' time, which we've been
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doing and how we've been doing it for many,
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many years.
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He's saying, that's nonsense.
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We're talking about six to 12 months.
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We're not talking about five to 10 years.
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That's gone.
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That's gone.
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The way the AI is now progressing, and at the speed it is progressing,
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it is frightening.
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And yes, it's going to disrupt.
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Actually, at one stage, quite controversially, this one lady asked him,
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well,
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she's got two kids in school now, what should I tell them?
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to sort of focus on one day when they want to go to university.
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Good question.
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Yes.
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And he laughed and he says, they're going to waste their time.
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There's no future.
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Things like university is not going to exist.
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It's useless.
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It's like doing all these mathematical sums and those kind of things in
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school.
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And today we pick up not even in a calculator anymore.
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We pick up our phones and we just solve these mathematical problems.
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It is crazy.
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I mean, then there was another clip that I saw of the past week.
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Anthropics CEO, they're asking, well, what?
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What is he coding lately?
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What type of things is he coding?
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And he laughs and he says, you know what?
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I haven't written a single code in the past six months.
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My clout, that basically do the coding for me.
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And that's the harsh reality.
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The harsh reality is for people like me, not people like you at the moment anyway,
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but for people like me,
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I remember seeing a program.
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that was filmed about a year ago but aired about three months ago.
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And it was about this, it was about AI and the way it's disrupting and the way it
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might disrupt in the future.
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And this woman went to see this chap in the United States of America whose mother
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had died.
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And he had recordings of her voice.
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And he just, I don't know,
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AI recreated her so he could still talk to her after her death.
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So he gets huge comfort from phoning up his mother through AI and saying, Hi, how
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are you doing?
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And she'll say something like, I'm fine.
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Isn't it a lovely day?
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I see where you are.
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It's a bit windy.
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It's four degrees in the middle of winter and everything.
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But goodness me, you look happy, son.
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And all that sort of thing with her voice.
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And I think to myself, okay, Skalk and I speak every Wednesday evening.
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They could take every single website that you look at and that I look at,
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looking at the live prices and the company results that we give, et cetera, plug them
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all in.
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Whatever they do, they've got our voices from just even just one chat, even just 10
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minutes of you and I talking.
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They can recreate the lilting, the lilting little conversational niceties that we
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have.
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You do this sometimes.
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I do that sometimes.
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We don't have to be there.
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They'll plug it in and they will have the five o'clock shadow on a Wednesday without
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us even being there.
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And I know it because it can happen because I asked someone very similar to
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the person you've described if that was the case.
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And he just went, of course it is.
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That's nothing.
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It is.
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It is.
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But I still think, and the scary part, and a lot of people listen to this as well.
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I'm done.
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I'm going to switch off now because this is scaring me.
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I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight.
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It is true.
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It is.
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It is.
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But I can recall it was the 80s.
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I can still remember my dad came into the house and he brought this big box, massive
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box.
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unboxed it and here is a thing called a PC and he said son you need to learn this
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this is
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this is gonna be your new inverted toy
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I was excited you know and I said dad so what what what game is loaded on this he
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said well a very
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nice game it's a game called
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Lotus 1 2 3 now now now people listening to that podcast will suddenly
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grab their phone and try you know google a thing called lotus one two three but i'm
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gonna save you the the
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the trouble um lotus one two three is a very similar product to to what excel is
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today it's a
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sheets and um we didn't have things like excel back in
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80s and and people said you know this lotus it's going to totally kill the
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auditing
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industry accountants are not going to exist anymore
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Because this Lotus is going to totally take over the jobs and you're not going to
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need a
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accountant anymore because Lotus 1-2-3 will be doing it.
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Well, we know the end result was, yes, that the physical bootkeeping was made
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easier, it was made quicker.
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And ultimately, auditors now got different jobs.
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They look at structures, they look at tax structuring, they look at different.
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So different tasks were generated.
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through a thing like Lotus, making things quicker and faster.
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So I've got no doubt that things will.
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It's like you mentioned, you try and find something and where five years ago,
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not even five years ago, two years ago, you would have jumped on your phone and
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you would have Googled it or searched it
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on some search engine.
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Today, you climb onto some AI model, ChatGPT, Claw,
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Gemini, Grok.
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And you surf it there.
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If we turn back the clock 30 years ago, you would have needed to have gone to a
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library.
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Exactly.
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I was going to say it started with libraries, then it went to search engines,
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now it's chatbots.
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And I don't know where it will go next,
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but I do know what's going to happen is that eventually you'll be doing your work
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on Harmony and
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Goldfields and Pan-African Resources and DRD Gold and everything.
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And it'll take you a couple of days to do all that and you'll put it into your model
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and it'll spew out buy or sell.
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given the criteria that you fed it.
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But eventually you'll just go to AI and say, what about Harmony?
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And it'll come out with everything that you've spent 48 hours doing in 10 seconds.
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If it knows you, if it knows the way that you, which it will, it'll mimic your
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intelligence, I think.
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It'll mimic your investing style.
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And that scares me.
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And that should scare you as well.
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I mean, you'll be dead by then.
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You'll have made your money and you'll be looking back and thinking.
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Wait, wait, wait.
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All these people that are mating.
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Yeah, people won't have children anymore, Scalp.
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But we've got kids.
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Yeah, I know, we have.
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But in the future, people will not have children.
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They'll say, why am I bringing this thing into the world?
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What can it do?
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What's it going to do with its life?
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And that ends our discussion for today because we've just gone dark.
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No, but I'm serious.
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There will be demographic consequences to AI.
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People will not want to have children.
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I know that my children.
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I'm going to, I'm discouraging, really discouraging them to have grandchildren
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for them.
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That's for different reasons.
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I'm knocking on my door at the weekend and say, look after this for two days.
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I wouldn't know what to do with it.
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I've forgotten.
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But you know what I mean?
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You're going to be, you're going to be that grumpy, grumpy old grandpa, Oh gosh,
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yeah.
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You should have never been here.
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No, I think where I want to get you, I mean, I think,
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and what Lindsay and myself sort of reminisce is, I have a.
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for the past five to six minutes.
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Twelve.
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Yes, it's a total, yeah, okay.
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It's a total disruptor.
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But that we see in the process.
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I mean, you're talking about NVIDIA.
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We know what NVIDIA has done over the past.
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I mean, I'm going to ask you, Intel, do you want to take a wild, wild guess?
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Now, Intel, we know is also in chess, but we struggled because it was sort of in the
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shadows of...
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the likes of the NVIDIAs, the AMDs, the ASMLs, you know, those companies.
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It struggled.
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And yes, it had the change of God.
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And you want to take a guess, year to date, since the 1st of January up to now,
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what did Intel do?
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I know exactly what it did when Donald Trump was having intimate discussions with
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the CEO and was
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given insider information on what Intel was up to and what it might do.
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So Trump and his administration, mainly Trump.
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It'll all go to the Trump family.
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That's another story invested in Intel when it was around
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$19, $20 per share.
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I saw it the other day at $60, and I don't know where it is now, Skunk.
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I think I saw it at $60.
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I see your $60, and I'll raise it by another $60 because it's trading now at
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$170.
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No, Don't say that.
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It's gone up six times since Trump bought it.
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Yeah.
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So this year alone.
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It's up now 220%.
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So this is just this year alone, because what you're referring to was a sort of
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mid-latter part,
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and it had a run already in the latter part of 2025.
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This year alone, 220%, 200% of that price.
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That share price was distressed and a massive, massive amount of pressure.
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And yeah, there we go.
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$117 per share.
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And that...
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Ladies and gentlemen, is our intro to why...
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All I asked was about NVIDIA, and now we're talking about demographics, not
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having children,
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me locking the door and moving country so I don't have to look after my
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grandchildren should they come,
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which I'm trying to discourage them not to because of everything we've spoken about.
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And it just goes on and on, and that's the thing.
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I can't grasp it, Skunk.
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My tiny mind cannot grasp it because in every aspect of life I can see some
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impact.
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And then I have to say, I'm sorry,
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I'm just going to watch a football match or something or watch some soap opera just
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to clear my mind
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of the potential chaos that is going to ensue.
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And it will be chaos.
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It'll be bedlam.
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We're humans.
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We don't understand how to deal with it, I don't think.
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No, it's going to be a disruptor.
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And I mean, to what extent?
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I don't know.
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I can't tell you where this will end.
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I would definitely encourage you to go and listen to Mo's interview because he
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mentioned it's going to be a
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very, very...
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dark period.
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In human history.
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Maybe the future humans will learn how to work with it and embrace it.
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That's the thing.
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He called it utopia after that.
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He called it utopia after that.
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Because, funny enough, and maybe this is where I disagree, but he said, you know,
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us humans,
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it was never built to work.
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You know, we were supposed to lay on the tree every day and if we get hungry, we,
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okay.
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Once a week, we get up and go and hunt for some huge buck or something like that, put
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it back to the camp,
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eat, and for the next five days lay under the tree again.
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We were never built to work this hard.
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And AI is just going to help us go back to that space where we don't work as hard as
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we do.
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Well, I don't know about that, but I'll tell you one thing, another thing
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completely the antithesis of AI,
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and that is Warren Buffett.
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Now, I just read something on LinkedIn, and I don't know if someone's made this
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up,
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but he apparently gave a speech which was rather disturbing about what he's seeing
16:08
with Trump
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and the complete destruction of democracy in the United States of America and
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authoritarianism and all that sort of thing.
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But he put it in a nice way, and I don't know if you can confirm that.
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I don't know if you're a buffeter, but if you are...
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then you might have seen the speech at his recent AGM of Bolkjah.
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I don't know.
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I just read this thing and I thought, that doesn't sound like him.
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It sounds as though someone's made that up via AI.
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But we've got another thing to worry about,
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and that is Trump taking away the right to vote and completely hijacking the
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midterms.
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And the scary thing is what the rest of the world does if he does it.
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Do they cut off America? Do they dump bonds even more?
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My personal view is that people are dumping bonds not just because of
17:02
inflation,
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but because of the United States and the administration that is in charge.
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And they're just saying, I don't want anything to do with this country, so I can
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get out and go elsewhere and buy European bonds, whatever,
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Australian, New Zealand, Canada, but not the United States.
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There's something more going on with the US bond market than just oil and
17:22
inflation, Skunk.
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Yeah, I mean, there's so many things that you just mentioned.
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I think first point, yes, I mean,
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this is absolute dumping of bonds.
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So that's a definite, definite worry.
17:44
I mean, but Kevin Walsh or Mr.
17:51
The new Fed chair.
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Yeah.
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Did you know, just by the way, did you know his, what do you call it,
18:00
his grandmother-in-law
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is the lord of?
18:13
Oh, really?
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The billionaires that recently died?
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Yes.
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His wife is still.
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I mean, he's married.
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I don't know what's it, but they said they mislawed him.
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So that's why he's looking as young as he does.
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Because I looked at him when I look at Kevin. Now, just interesting factoids.
18:32
When he was appointed as a Fed governor, that was 2006.
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He was the youngest ever Fed governor.
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He was 36 at that stage.
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Youngest Fed governor of all time.
18:45
So just interesting factoids.
18:48
But when I saw him the first time a few months ago, I looked at this gentleman and
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I went like, no.
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This guy's young.
18:58
And then I went to Google.
19:00
Are you trying to get to the point that he's slapping Estee Lauder on his face
19:04
every day?
19:06
Oh, yes.
19:08
I mean, you're not going to have a...
19:10
A grandmother-in-law of Estee Lauder, I think his wife goes to him every day.
19:11
Maybe he's just eating healthily.
19:13
Maybe he's eating a lot of fruit and vegetables every day, and he's got one of
19:16
those
19:17
Korean guasha pieces of jade,
19:21
and he sculpts his face every day with tea tree oil or whatever it is.
19:27
Rose hip oil, I think, is the best one to do.
19:29
Maybe he's doing that sculpt.
19:30
Maybe it's not Estee Lauder.
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Maybe he's got good genes.
19:33
Nothing aids you as quickly as stress.
19:36
Now, when you start a job and you're a big, big, big boss, I mean,
19:41
when we talk about the boss's boss, say, well, you know what?
19:45
If you don't do what I say, I'm not just going to fire you.
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I'm going to sue you.
19:53
This is actually what Trump said two or three weeks ago.
19:56
He said, And they actually asked, a CNN interviewer, they asked him, well,
20:03
we're sitting in an uncomfortable scenario with inflation, et cetera, et cetera.
20:11
We don't think that Kevin will be able to cut rates.
20:16
And he literally turned around and said, well, if Kevin Walsh don't cut rates, I
20:21
will sue him.
20:21
And I know he had a sort of a grin on his face.
20:23
And it was most probably, but yeah, that's.
20:27
In sort of one sentence, summed up why I feel, in my opinion,
20:33
why we see the pressure on the U.S.
20:35
bonds.
20:36
Because you're sitting with a governor that needs to protect
20:44
these assets.
20:46
They need to protect it.
20:47
And they do that by making sure that inflation don't become a problem.
20:53
If you're going to be in a scenario, which we are.
20:56
I mean, the war is not over yet.
20:59
I mean, every day, and make no mistake, Trump now looks at this and says,
21:05
we need this war now to be over.
21:07
I mean, this is now getting really late in the day.
21:12
November feels like forever, but it's not forever anymore.
21:15
It's around the corner.
21:16
And if we're going to go into the midterms, yes, you're right.
21:20
They might have ways and means to not wreck.
21:26
the voters, but sort of just get a better playing field.
21:31
He's not a popular president anymore.
21:34
Not at all.
21:35
No, and he doesn't want to be a popular president.
21:37
He's already said that.
21:38
He said quite clearly he doesn't care about the finances of the people that
21:43
voted for him.
21:45
He said that as he was getting onto Marine One or wherever he was going.
21:48
Incidentally, he's golfed 111 times in his second term.
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out of just, I think, 408 days in power.
21:57
So 20% of the time that he has been in power for the second time, he's been
22:03
golfing.
22:05
Yeah, that's crazy.
22:06
I saw that.
22:07
Again, thanks for introducing me to Jimmy Kimmel.
22:14
Did you see last night's show?
22:16
Did you see it this morning?
22:17
It was extraordinary, wasn't it?
22:20
He's actually got it.
22:21
Again, another YouTube clip which the listeners should go and follow.
22:26
But what Lindsay is referring, he's actually now got a poll.
22:30
And it's literally, it must be the, and remember, he actually showed it last night
22:37
where he said, well,
22:39
he had this thing about Obama. Where he said, this is happening.
22:45
And what is Obama doing?
22:46
He's on the golf course.
22:49
That was a.
22:50
back when he was president.
22:52
And literally 21% of every day,
22:57
all the days that he's been president, 21% of those...
23:00
He's been golfing.
23:01
He's been on a golf course.
23:02
Yeah, he's been golfing.
23:03
I want to have that job.
23:04
Shall we talk about the markets?
23:06
We've talked about golf and Estee Lauder and Warren Buffett and his views on what's
23:12
going to happen,
23:12
the destruction of America as the world's leading democracy, all that sort of thing.
23:16
But what we haven't spoken about is the market.
23:18
I looked at the Stock Exchange News Service.
23:20
Wasn't really much that intrigued me today.
23:23
Did you find anything?
23:24
Have you found anything since we last spoke?
23:27
Yeah, let's just have a quick rundown.
23:29
I think news today was the inflation numbers that came out at 4%.
23:35
Let me just tell you what that was.
23:37
In April, the year-on-year CPI inflation in South Africa, consumer price inflation,
23:44
rose to 4%, up from 3.1%
23:46
in March.
23:48
The core inflation...
23:50
went from 3.2% in March to 3.6%.
23:52
And it's almost now cast in stone.
23:54
It's written in the stars that there will be a 25 basis point increase in South
23:58
African interest rates.
24:00
What a turnaround in a four-month period.
24:00
It was going to be cut, Now it's going to be rise, rise, hike, hike, possibly.
24:06
The market is saying possibly 100 basis points this year.
24:10
What do you think, Skulk?
24:11
That's, you know, if you've got...
24:15
the Reserve Bank governor that said, well, we're going to aim to keep inflation at
24:21
3%.
24:21
That's hard and fast.
24:23
It was always bans.
24:25
Today, it's a fixed 3%.
24:28
And you're on your inflation come out at 4%.
24:31
I'm sorry, but I don't need to agree with it.
24:35
But that's what the Reserve Bank will be doing.
24:39
So yes, that'll happen.
24:40
The problem is when you look at this 4%,
24:43
when you look at this four percent um and you've got one portion of of that let's
24:50
call it
24:50
inflation basket that that increases by 5.5 percent month on month not we're not
24:57
talking about 5.5 percent year on year, we're talking about 5.5%
25:03
month on month, namely transport.
25:07
If transport increases 5.5%, I'm so sorry,
25:10
there's just no way we're going to be able to contain inflation at that 3% levels.
25:15
And we just mentioned, the war is not done yet.
25:19
Iran is sitting and they know
25:24
Trump wants this war to be done now.
25:27
And they...
25:29
They're clearly not in too much of a rush to get any, let's call it,
25:36
deal done, et cetera, et cetera.
25:38
So I think the listeners out there, yes,
25:41
I agree with Lindsay and I agree with currently a lot of the economists are
25:47
saying we will most probably on the 28th
25:49
of May not see any reaction yet.
25:53
Okay.
25:54
We'll see.
25:56
I know a lot of people that are saying exactly the opposite.
25:59
But the South African bond yield will come to you in a moment.
26:05
Let me give you a couple of numbers, by the way.
26:08
I'm going to start with commodities today because they are very interesting indeed.
26:12
Because just in the last half hour since we've been speaking, Skull, the oil price
26:19
has really started to tumble quite significantly.
26:21
Brent crude oil was $11.50 yesterday.
26:22
It's now $106.44.
26:25
And on the day, it's down 4.3%, we'll call it.
26:29
West Texas crude is below 100, $99.62, which is down
26:34
4.4%. The gold price has rallied from being on the, you know,
26:40
it got to our target scale, 44.50, and it's now 45.30, which is up around about a
26:47
percent.
26:47
The copper price doing well, up 1.75% to $6.27 and a half per pound.
26:54
What else am I looking at here?
26:57
The S&P 500 futures.
26:59
Nice.
26:59
74.41 for the June futures.
27:03
Up just under 1%.
27:05
The US 10-year bond yield.
27:07
It's still pretty stalky.
27:08
It's 4.59%.
27:10
But that is 8 basis points down for the yield.
27:15
So it was around.
27:16
It got close to 4.70 yesterday.
27:19
What else am I looking at?
27:20
South African 10-year bond yield.
27:22
8.715%.
27:24
It has fallen by 21.5 basis points.
27:27
The day's range, 8.715, which is where it's closed.
27:32
On the low of the day yield-wise, the high today, after the figure came out, 8.93%.
27:37
So people are saying, so what?
27:39
It was already baked into the market.
27:42
And what else can I give you?
27:44
I can give you Bitcoin if you're interested because it is
27:47
77,538 up 1.4%.
27:52
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Skulk, you brought it up, not me.
28:17
This must be my favorite part of today's podcast, by the way.
28:21
We're not being frivolous.
28:23
It was a good point.
28:24
Now, tell us about the market.
28:25
Was there any stock or in the last few days,
28:27
any stock that has really stood out because of bad results or good results?
28:34
Let's look at a few things that came out today.
28:37
I think that's Bytes Technologies, that they came out with a result,
28:43
basically a year-end result.
28:46
It didn't look too bad.
28:47
I mean, for the listeners, I don't know what bots do.
28:49
I mean, they're pretty much a reseller of anything
28:53
Microsoft. So if you want to install some server and you need Microsoft products,
28:59
Microsoft 365,
29:01
they're pretty much the company to help you and the security tools with them.
29:03
But they had a horrible first half of the year where their profit margins actually,
29:10
or profits, actually decreased.
29:12
But it did seem like they turned around in the second half of the year and things
29:17
look a little bit better.
29:19
I'm looking at the graph now and I can see there's been an uptick or a little bit of
29:24
recovery on a company that's been fairly
29:26
distressed.
29:28
Then I think the other one was also a smallish company.
29:30
It's Boland Properties.
29:32
We saw today that they, it was by a consortium, Bitco,
29:39
made an offer.
29:41
to basically buy the remaining tradable shares,
29:45
which will eventually accumulate to account to about, let's call it 33.6% of
29:51
the company,
29:53
at 4.35.
29:54
Now, why that's important, this is about a, let's call it a 25% premium.
30:01
to what the share price was trading.
30:02
That's not bad.
30:04
Yes.
30:05
If you look at it, 180-day VWAP, it's about 41% premium.
30:10
I'm going to stop you there because it's a bit obscure because I'm a Luddite.
30:15
My laptop, I haven't plugged in, so it's about to run out.
30:17
So I'm going to give you $1 at $16.44.
30:20
I've given you the commodities.
30:22
Give me the indices, please, Skunk.
30:25
Let's go.
30:26
So the JSE today, it closed today at, oh, there goes my.
30:30
My laptop.
30:32
Exactly.
30:34
I'll give you some ups and downs on the individual share price action.
30:40
Harmony, top of the board at five and three quarters.
30:43
Data take up nearly 4%.
30:44
Anglo Gold up three and a third.
30:45
Goldfields up two and two thirds.
30:47
Grin drawed up 2.3.
30:48
On the downside, Bytes down 3.6.
30:50
The aforementioned Alphamind down 2.8.
30:53
We Buy Cars after yesterday's results and really good performance, giving back 2.8%
30:58
today.
31:00
And, yeah, that's about it.
31:02
Actually, scale indices, if you would.
31:04
Yeah, so what we have is that we have the JSE Allshare close to that,
31:07
114,634 points.
31:11
That was up 0.86%.
31:14
Resources definitely had a wonderful day.
31:18
They ended the day at 2.2% in the green.
31:23
And then we had industrials.
31:26
That was up.
31:27
Oh, that was down.
31:28
Down 47 basis points.
31:29
financials were up uh one and a quarter of a percent so in general quite a good day
31:36
very good
31:38
something about raul castro just uh crash crashed across my screen let me give it to
31:43
you now there's some royalties
31:45
because this is also important he's bored with iran so he's gonna do
31:47
something with um with cuba uh former cuban president raul castro is indicted in
31:54
u.s as Trump pushes for regime change in Cuba.
31:58
that's the next thing that we won't be worried about in the future because the
32:02
markets will shrug it off.
32:04
Skulk, thank you very much for your time.
32:04
Skulk Lowe is a portfolio manager at PSG Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town.
32:09
And that was the five o'clock shadow.
32:10
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32:17
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32:19
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