Latest / Send & Grow by SparkLoop / Coaching Session: Tips from a Newsletter Pro — with Josh Spector of For The Interested
Transcript
- EP 47 - Josh Spector === Josh Spector: [00:00:00] Here's what most people do that I think is wrong. Most people create ads that look like ads. They have big boxes. They have a big logo of some random company. They put them at the top of the newsletter because they think that's the most prominent when they're really just training readers to skip over them and scroll down and nobody looks at them. They're not reading that big block of copy that you have because no one needs A paragraph of whatever they feel promotional, they feel like they're being sold to all of those things are decreasing the number of people that are going to actually click through the ad. Dylan Redekop: Welcome to episode 47 of the Send & Grow podcast. My name is Dylan. What exciting element of my job at spark loop is sitting down with fascinating guests. In the newsletter space and finding out how they're growing and monetizing their newsletters. So you can learn from their journeys. And today's episode with Josh Spector is a little bit different, but in a really good way. This conversation isn't so much about Josh's successful newsletter, [00:01:00] his growth strategy or his newsletters revenue streams. Are you still going to learn a lot? Absolutely. Get out your notes app. You see, Josh has been doing this newsletter thing for nearly 8 years and has learned a lot about what to do and what not to do with all facets of operating a successful newsletter. So in today's interview, I'm treating Josh more like a newsletter coach than a newsletter publisher. And he really delivers. Listen in to learn about common misconceptions about newsletters, from growth hacks to ad placements, what key metrics you should be watching to truly understand your audience engagement. And how to simplify newsletter ads so you can increase conversions. Josh, it's so great to have you here. It's really been a long time coming. Um, I want to dive into this newsletter coaching session, but before we do that, I want you to give us a taste of your background and experience for those who don't know you. Josh Spector: Sure. Uh, hi, first of all, thanks for having me. So I am a marketing strategist, basically, who helps [00:02:00] experts grow their business. I do that in a few different ways. Uh, one is my newsletter is called for the interested. People can check it out for the interested. com slash subscribe. I have been running it. It's crazy now. For about eight years, um, which is wild. I publish a weekly Sunday edition. And for the past few years, I've also published a daily weekday edition, which is literally like about a paragraph. And I'm sure we'll, we'll get into that at some point. I also do consulting coaching and do. I have a membership called skill sessions. If people can check out at josh Spector. com slash sessions for me, again, all, everything that I do is designed to help what I call experts. So it's basically creators, people that have, they're trying to monetize their expertise in some way. So it could be coaches. It could be consultants. It could be, they write a newsletter and they sell advertising in it, but they have something that they teach people or help people do. And I help them attract those people and [00:03:00] ultimately convert them into customers or clients. Dylan Redekop: Awesome. Great summary. Eight years writing a newsletter is impressive for most people who can't get through eight months or eight weeks of writing a newsletter. So you've obviously had tons of experience doing this. So, you know, we could start at any place and with what you've done, just from what I've seen, you know, you've grown further interested to 40, 000 subscribers and that Probably includes a lot of people you've weaned off your list as well, cold subscribers and stuff. So it's probably, probably a lot more than that. You've changed your sending cadence. Like you mentioned, you went from sort of an optional daily newsletter to now you kind of basically opted everybody into a regular daily sending cadence. You've merged newsletters, you've gone from no ads to, you know, making thousands of dollars per year with ads and, you know, experimented with different revenue streams as well. Like you mentioned, you've introduced skill sessions and you do some consulting. So there's tons of places we could start. But since you've got such this, uh, vast experience in helping creators running a newsletter and that sort of thing, I thought it'd be fun to do something a little bit different [00:04:00] than what we typically do on our standard podcast interviews. I want to kind of hit you with some, not rapid fire, because I don't want you to answer these in just like one sentence, but kind of some sort of unformatted questions. Cool. So Questions that I don't typically ask a lot of newsletter operators, but that I thought with your insight, you would be able to give us some really interesting answers. Josh Spector: Those are my favorite kind of questions. So yeah, I love, I love the unexpected and I love different formats. So I'm game. Let's do it. Dylan Redekop: Okay. So, uh, just to go on the Josh Spector vein of, I want to know Josh, if you had just 10 minutes per day to increase your newsletters subscriber count, what would you do? It's a good Josh Spector: question. So I think The first thing I would do is the, the tempting answer is to say, here's the one thing I would do with those 10 minutes. But I think my actual answer is I would do two or three different things with three, you know, three, two to three minutes each. So I would squeeze a few different things in there. So the first thing I would do [00:05:00] is assuming I had some social. Accounts. I would do one post. So I would probably take two. Let's say I'll take two minutes of that 10 minutes to post something teasing what's going to be in my newsletter, uh, either the following day or the following week. Okay. Right. One of the big mistakes that I see people make is they promote their newsletter after the fact they don't promote it in advance. And And so actually you're going to get more subscribers by promoting it in advance because you've given people a reason to sign up because they don't want to miss that thing. So that's a very simple thing. Again, could take two minutes or less to do that. So that's one thing I would do. The second thing I would do is I would, and maybe I would mix this up. So some days I would do one, some days I would do the other, but I'm going to pretend that I'm going to do all of these every day because they're all pretty short. The next thing I would do is I would probably take another two minutes. To email someone that has some audience that aligns with who I want to reach and either see if they want to [00:06:00] do some kind of simple cross promotion, send them something maybe that I publish that's relevant to their audience, maybe offer to just say, Hey, you know, if you'd love me, like you've got anything that would be relevant to my audience, I'll feature in mine, start some kind of relationship or look for some sort of cross promotion. And when I say anyone that has An audience that aligns with mine, I mean anyone. So whether it doesn't just have to be a newsletter, right? Maybe they have a Twitter following. Maybe they have an Instagram following. Maybe they have a podcast. Maybe they have a blog, whatever it is. Anyone that is in some way reaching people who would be interested in, you know, My potentially be interested in my newsletter. The other thing is I would not put the caveat on it that they have to have as big an audience as I do. Right. Their audience might be very small. Like, so I, you know, I have about 40, 000 people who read my stuff. I might come across someone that has 400 Twitter followers. But if they, if they're 400 Twitter followers are experts looking to grow their business, I'm [00:07:00] happy to do a cross promotion with them because I'm still reaching 400 people that I otherwise would not have reached. Just, I think sometimes people get hung up on this idea that like, well, okay, my audience might be bigger than yours, but so what it's still 400 people. Like it doesn't cost me anything to say, Hey, go check out this, assuming their content or whatever they do is relevant to my, to my audience as well. Right. Yeah. So those are two things that, uh, that I would definitely do, right? Some sort of outreach, relationship building, cross promotion, some sort of teasing my newsletter. And I'm going to sneak a third one in here. Uh, the third one would be Assuming that I share links of some sort in my newsletter, either to my content or other people's content, I would look at whatever got the most traction in my most recent newsletter and also archival newsletters, right? Stuff that my audience clicked a lot of, because I know that my audience, quote unquote, my type [00:08:00] of people, Are we're interested in that thing? I would create social posts based on those most clicked links. And I wouldn't just, I would actually turn it into native social posts, not just share a link to, oh, here's a video. You know, let's say it was a video, right? Let's say I shared a video. About how to convert blog post readers into clients, right? And I saw a lot of people click that. I would not create a social post that was just, Hey, here's a video about whatever. Here's the YouTube link and no one's going to see it. Right? I would pull what are the two to three biggest lessons of that. Create a native. Tweet or social posts with that knowing that that's probably going to resonate and quote unquote be a hit because it's already tested at least the interest level, right? I know lots of people were interested in that, in that topic. And then at the bottom of that native social post, I would probably have a line saying like, this was originally featured in my newsletter. If you like this kind of stuff, check it out here. Now, if I do all three of those things every day, it's probably going to take a little more than 10 minutes. The post, writing the post might take a little [00:09:00] longer, so maybe I'm cheating a bit. Sure. But again, you can mix it up. But I think those would be the three things that if I only had 10 minutes a day, I would, I, that's where I would spend it. Dylan Redekop: Yeah. So, I think the, uh, forcing function here is that, you know, you had 10 minutes, what would be the three most impactful things you could do? And, and so that's, that's kind of the point. So, that's, uh, that's Really interesting. I thought you'd probably go, I could pick out one or two of those if I was to guess, but, uh, all three of those I wouldn't have thought of. So that's, that's great. And kind of along the point of you just mentioning kind of about a metric checking click rates, that leads into the next question. So let's say you're operating your newsletter 99 percent blind. You can only see one metric to gauge success. What metric do you check or what metric do you look at? Josh Spector: So, I'll give you an answer, but first I'm going to give you a sort of non answer answer. Okay. So, the real answer is it completely depends on what my goals are. Right? So, a newsletter ultimately is a tool you use to accomplish a goal. It's not really a goal in and of itself. So, for example, [00:10:00] if my goal is I want clients. The one key metric is, am I getting more clients? Yeah. Right? If my goal is I want more revenue, and let's say I'm, you know, let's say the newsletter is the product, right? And I want more revenue and it's an ad model or whatever. Then the one key metric is actually revenue. Because the truth is, it doesn't matter if I have a hundred subscribers or a million subscribers if the revenue isn't Going up, right? If the revenue isn't what I, if I have a hundred subscriber newsletter and I'm making a million dollars a year, that's a success. If I have a million subscribers and I'm making a hundred dollars a year, that's not a success if my goal is revenue. Right. So that's the sort of the true answer is you really need to understand what is the newsletter designed to help you accomplish. Right? And if it maybe it's not revenue at all, right? Maybe that maybe my newsletter is about promoting some sort of cause, right? Getting a message out there, right? In which case, that metric might be how many subscribers [00:11:00] I have, or how many opens or how many readers, right? What I would pick a metric that would align with the goal, right? If I'm trying to get reach and see how many people can hear my message. Then I'm going to pick that kind of message, right? If it's revenue, I'm going to pick a revenue thing, et cetera. So setting a goal aside in terms of, you know, what metrics matter. One that I think is a good sort of overall gauge of anything is how many, how many people are actually replying to the newsletter and that number is always going to be. Tiny compared to the amount of your audience, but how many people are replying and what are they saying? So like I'm sending daily emails basically, and I can tell there are some days, you know, I'm not getting tons of replies or anything like that, right? But there are some days when I get two replies and there are some days when I get 10 replies. That's telling me something about the content, right? Especially sometimes [00:12:00] those replies are just like, Oh my God, this was amazing. They don't even have to be like extensive replies, but the fact that someone felt it was so good or so valuable to them that they replied is a really strong signal, especially when you consider that the vast majority of people are never going to reply no matter what. Right. So if I get 10 replies, again, also what's valuable is the comparison, right? This issue gets two, this issue gets 10. The number doesn't matter, but the comparison is telling me this issue either resonated with a lot more people or more likely resonated in a much deeper way. deeper, more powerful way that 10 people felt like they had to reply to it, even just to say, thank you, or this is amazing. So I think that, that metric, you know, you can track opens and you can track clicks and you can track all that kind of stuff. But the heaviest lift is actually for somebody to reply. And if you're getting, I have no doubt that the one that's getting 10 replies compared to the one that's getting two probably has [00:13:00] higher open rate, probably has a higher click rate, probably has a higher resonance. And even if it doesn't, it means at least the people that it resonated with, it resonated in a deeper way, which is more powerful. So I think that would be now, again, it also depends a little bit. There is a qualitative. Measure here. So it depends a little bit what those replies are. So, you know, I could go out and post something inflammatory and get a million replies from people who are pissed off. That doesn't mean that it was good again, unless that's my intent, which is a whole other, which is a whole other thing, right? It's, you know, replies in context of what are they saying? And also in context of who are the people that are replying. So for example, my target audience for my business is experts who want to grow their business. So if I post something and all the people that are replying are, let's say, not there's anything wrong with being an employee, but let's say like they don't have an expertise based [00:14:00] business, right? They're a waiter. You know, and they're like, Oh, this was really interesting. I never thought about that before. That's not as valuable as the person who's a coach or a consultant or, you know, an author or whatever. Right. So, you know, there's some qualitative pieces within this. It's not just the, the pure reply number, but sort of looking at those replies with that context, I think is, is the thing that I would use to sort of assess. Is this working? But again, that's all assuming that I didn't. The main thing I would measure would be depending on my goal. Yeah. Right. Because that's, that's, that's ultimately what's going to be the most important metric. Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I agree. So you're the master, in my opinion, you're one of the best at least as far as it comes with newsletter ads and click throughs on newsletter ads. I think you and I've had some conversations about just how your ads get more clicks than a lot of people's. entire newsletters get clicks. So I think you probably agree that most newsletters are doing ads wrong. So what's the smallest, [00:15:00] what's the smallest change that they can make that could have the biggest impact on their newsletter ads? Josh Spector: So I'll talk about how you want me to talk about how I do mine first. Yeah. Let's give some context. Okay. So I'll give some context. So my ads are very different than what most people do and think of as traditional ads. So for starters, In most cases, I don't mention the name of the brand or whatever the ad is, which seems insane. Like people be like, what do you mean you're running an ad? And you don't mention it. But for me, that's so a couple of things. So number one, when people run ads in my newsletter, they provide, they get when you buy an ad and you can see all this at fortheinterested. com slash ads for 350, you basically get ads in two issues. So one runs in a Sunday issue where they're You're one of several sponsors in a sponsor section, and one runs in a weekday issue where you're the sole sponsor, and I write the copy for the weekday one. The brand supplies, or the advertiser supplies the copy for the Sunday one. The weekday one gets the [00:16:00] vast majority of the clicks for a variety of reasons. It's a shorter newsletter. It's only, they're the only sponsor. I write the copy. I think there's a bunch of things that help do that. Um, the Sunday ones get clicks too, but the, the weekday one probably gets. Five to 10 times more clicks than the Sunday one. Okay. So when they write the copy, they can do whatever they want, right? So a lot of those will have the brand name and they typically will, because that's what people think of doing with an ad. When I write the copy, the brand name is pretty much never in there. They're one line ads. And what they're focused on is the result, the value that. My audience is going to get from it. So for example, they're designed to drive clicks in traffic because I think the best way for you to convince and sell people is going to be on your site, not in a little blurb on my newsletter. So if you're someone who's just looking for awareness, I want people to know my brand name. the best fit for you. But I think that sort of general awareness is kind of overrated [00:17:00] in the context of newsletter ads. Like they can get awareness by clicking the ad and going to your website and then that's the best way to actually present your brand, your product, your whatever, not in a little blurb in my newsletter. So what I'm trying to do with the ads is I'm trying to generate Curiosity by playing up the result that someone's going to get from whatever is being advertised. So for example, let's say that, let's say someone is promoting a course about gardening. Well, that's a bad example because my audience is experts. So let's say somebody is promoting a course about copywriting. Okay. Okay. And it's called the, I know there is a course called the copywriting course. It's not that, but I just, for general sake, I'll say it's like called the copywriting course. Right. Yeah. So if the ad said, you know, check out the copywriting course to learn how to be a better copywriter, the name doesn't matter. Right. So what I would do instead is I would say today's email is brought to you by. A course that will show you how to write sales pages that [00:18:00] double your sales. Dylan Redekop: Yeah. If Josh Spector: that's one of the things that it whatever, right? What's the value? What's the end result that those people want? Including the name of the course doesn't, okay, it adds a little awareness, but it doesn't actually help Drive any clicks, right? What drives the click is, oh, I want to learn how to write sales pages that double my sales, right? Oh, okay. I'll do that. So a lot of times, let's say it's someone who's promoting an app. I may not even say app, right? I might say today's email is brought to you by a tool that will help you do X. Yeah. Oh, what's that tool? So it's curiosity, but it's really curiosity driven by, End result. The other thing is for the advertiser, for the sponsor, what they want ultimately, obviously, is sales and whatever. But the best way for them to sell is to get people within their environment. So when I run an ad that says something like, Oh, a tool, you know, a tool that's going to help you do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The only people clicking that are the people that want that result. So not only am [00:19:00] I driving clicks their way, but I'm driving people who want the result that their product offers, which ultimately helps them convert. Now, if you compare that to the way a lot of people tip. So, so here's, okay. So that's what my ads look like. There's no images. There's no, none of that stuff, right? It looks like the copy. It looks like just some, you know, it's labeled as sponsored, right? Today's email is brought to you by blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's within the context. Here's what most people do that I think is wrong. Most people create ads that look like ads. They have big boxes. They have a big logo of some random company. They put them at the top of the newsletter because they think that's the most prominent when they're really just training readers to skip over them and scroll down and nobody looks at them. They're not reading that big block of copy that you have because no one needs a paragraph of whatever. They feel promotional. They feel like they're being sold to. All of those things are decreasing the number of people that are going to [00:20:00] actually click through. The ad, because it's the same way on social media or anything like, you know, we, or especially websites, websites is ridiculous with banner ads and all that stuff. Like we have trained ourselves to tune out anything that looks like an ad. So whereas the newsletter person and for that matter, even the brand that's buying it. Thinks they're getting more. Oh, I get to be in the top spot and I get my logo and I get the, this and the, that and the whatever. And they think that's more valuable. Every one of those things is decreasing the number of people that are going to actually consume it and click it. Because what we see as readers is we go add, just scroll down. Like big ad at the top of the newsletter is actually like probably the absolute worst place to put the ad. You want it to feel and look like content, right? Now, the other caveat with this is another reason my ads work well is because I'm taking advertisers and sponsors who align with and fit into the ad. My audience [00:21:00] now, I'm not turning, you know, maybe once or twice, I've turned stuff away. Like I'm not doing crypto, you know, whatever, but like for the most part, that's what I'm attracting. And a lot of my advertisers are readers of my newsletter. So they sort of get the thing. That's another important piece of this, because if you're promoting something that's completely irrelevant, probably not going to do well, no matter how well the ad is written and whatever, but also, especially because my ads are focused on the results. So if someone's promoting a result that my readers don't want. It's not going to do that well. Um, so my advice for people, even if you're not going to use sort of my format is at a minimum, how do you make it not look like an ad? How do you make it speak to, you know, the ad actually should be about the reader, not about the brand. And this is a mistake you see all the time with copyright, where they're like, you know, brought to you by such and such, such and such as a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we do this and we have a What's the result that someone's going to, do you want, I mean, [00:22:00] literally every ad could be, do you want this outcome? Go here. Dylan Redekop: Simple as that. Josh Spector: Yeah. Then when they go there, they can learn all about on your website or wherever you're sending them all the stuff about how great your company is and how you help them get the outcome and whatever. Right. Yeah. You know, it should all be about sort of that. And that's basically how I approach it. Dylan Redekop: I have a question down here later on in the interview about your spikiest point of view for newsletter operators, but I think you may have just shared it. Okay. Maybe we'll see. We'll see. Uh, not having a basically a banner ad or a, you know, a logo as the, as you call it, ad at the top, which is considered prime real estate. I think just because that's where everybody's been doing it and everyone's been trained to believe that that's where it should be. Josh Spector: Yeah. And, and look again, a lot of this is also about the brands and the buyers. They think it's good for them. They're wrong, right? So like, I understand in part, newsletters are offering that because that's what people want to buy. But that's, that's wrong. And I would, I would encourage people, [00:23:00] both newsletter creators and people that are buying ads and all of that. If you're going to buy that, Banner ad spot or whatever, you know, if you're whatever type of ad you're going to buy, ask yourself, when was the last time you clicked one of those? Yeah. You know, I used to work in the entertainment industry and I would talk, talk with agencies and see people all the time that are, you know, creating TV commercials and spending all this money on TV commercials and all this kind of stuff. And I would sit in a room sometimes and I would ask them, when was the last time you watched a TV commercial? When was the last time that you didn't, you know, number one, you're probably watching streaming and not seeing commercials anyway. Number two, if you do see the commercials and have the ability to skip it, when was the last time you didn't skip it? Why are you putting all your money into stuff that you don't consume and you don't click from a marketing standpoint? I'm not saying there's no value there. Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Josh Spector: Right. I'm just saying, My guess is most people that are reading and selling those ad spots are not clicking those types of ads and probably not even reading them in most other [00:24:00] newsletters. Yep. Not always, but most. Dylan Redekop: And even if it might be the right solution that that person is looking for. Yeah. We've trained, like you said, we've trained ourselves. Yeah. Josh Spector: Yeah, Dylan Redekop: I resonate highly with that answer because I, I'm one of those people who thinks, you know, that's where the money is for the banner ad spot. But yet I just ignore them pretty much every time. By the way, and, Josh Spector: and again, I, I don't know if I should say this or not, I guess you can check and choose to leave it in or, or not, but sure. I use ConvertKit and I occasionally use the ConvertKit, I forget what they call it, sponsor program or sponsor network. And, and so, you know, they'll bring some advertisers to me. I don't run. The typical ads that they run, we run them in my format. Right. And every advertiser that isn't cool with that, then they don't, we don't run it in my newsletter. And my commerce, initially, I did try some with their format. They didn't perform nearly as well. And I said, you know, look, especially for my audience. And again, My newsletter is very short. My audience has a certain set of expectations. You know, it's different for everybody. Right. [00:25:00] But I was like, for me, look, these are going to work much better. Let me write the, let me write the one sentence format. You guys can approve it, whatever. And that's the ads that I get from them and deal with their sponsors. That was what they do. And they perform very well. And that's why people come back. So I'm not just. Making this up and guessing like, I, I believe it's a more, and again, if you want to wear general awareness, that's maybe a different conversation, but if you want end result, you want sales, you want traffic, you want whatever. Yeah. Uh, this is a stronger approach. Dylan Redekop: I fully agree. Uh, okay. Let's move on to, uh, revenue. So. You're tasked with doubling a newsletter's revenue in three months, but you can only pull one lever. Which lever would you pull? We'll be right back to this conversation after a quick word from our sponsor. At Sparkloop, newsletter operators are always asking us for recommendations with questions like, who creates the best content on building a newsletter? Which social ads agency should I work with [00:26:00] to grow my newsletter? Who can help me figure out how to sell more newsletter ads? So, we created the ultimate resource for newsletter operators, our Certified Experts Directory. We found the best, most trusted media and service providers in the newsletter space, and we put them all in one directory for you. Take your newsletter to the next level with our free certified experts directory. Check it out at the link in the show notes. Now back to the episode. Which lever would you pull or lever? Which lever or lever would you pull? For example, like increase ad slots, um, create a new digital product, sell a service. What would you look at doing? First of all, I'm in the lever camp. I'm Josh Spector: lever, not lever. Okay. Okay. So a couple of things here. So the, the first thing is I would look to what was working. Okay. Assuming that obviously I already have some revenue, something. So I would look to like, where is that coming from? And what is the easy, you know, is there a lever related to that, that I can pull? Oh, this is, this was not my intention, but it's something that I [00:27:00] actually am just about to do and is a good example. So I am going to do, I hate the word cohort, but I guess it's a core cohort. Uh, I'm going to do a five week, what I'm calling social content spread. Okay. And the idea was each week I'm going to come up with sort of five social post template framework things. I'm going to have 10 people in the cohort. I'm going to show them, basically teach them the framework, whatever for these five posts, they're going to write them. And then I'm going to help them edit them and improve them. So it's a combination of like, here are frameworks. And also I help you sort of actually write them. We're going to do that essentially for four weeks. They're going to come out of it at the end with 20 posts. That have been written based on frameworks I've suggested and that have been edited and polished by me. Okay. Right. So I came up with that idea for a concept and what I did is I haven't actually announced it. My main audience has no idea it exists. I. Send it to my skill session members and said, Hey, I'm thinking of doing this. I'm only going to have 10 [00:28:00] spots. You get first dibs if you want it. And it's sold out among them this time around for them. I'm charging 300. So it's pretty reasonable and their membership, depending, you know, depending when they joined my skill session members, they're already paying a couple hundred, you know, somewhere between 200 to 350 a year, whatever. This was not my intention, but it fits good into your question, right? So one thing to do would be, well, who's already paying me for something and is there an additional product? So those 10 people just went from paying me, let's say a couple hundred dollars a year to paying me 500 some dollars a year. So that's one thing to do, right? You could go to advertisers. Let's say if your money's already coming from advertisers and go, is there something else I could offer them that would turn the thing around? They're giving me into 2, Dylan Redekop: 000. Josh Spector: So build on sort of existing customers that potentially might be the lever, depending on, depending on what it is separate from that, I think I would [00:29:00] try to create some sort of simple product, right? Of course, a video doesn't have to be elaborate, right? You know, my skill sessions are 45 minute presentations, right? So I would, I could go to my audience and say, Hey, here's three ideas that I have. To do a sort of one hour class on whatever one of these three topics. What do you want and see, see which they want and see if I can get in the by that. Those are easy sort of quick levers that you can kind of turn on and, and make money. The other way to do it would be, you know, if you do consulting or something like that, you could. Depending on what you do and how much it costs and all that, you know, you might only need one client, right? You might need one client to whatever. So you go, okay, I have a newsletter, let's say that has 2000 subscribers. Is there, what can I do to get one more client out of there? Could I offer a discount? Do I reach out to people that have clicks? You know, let's say that the consulting I do is to, let's say, [00:30:00] help people grow their newsletters. Well, I might put something in my newsletter that's a link to a piece of content about how to grow your newsletter. I'd look at who clicked that and go, that's okay. That's my leads. Uh, 50 people click that. I'm going to go reach out to those 50 people and see if I can convert one of them into a consulting client. Interesting. So using, you know, there's, I think that's also a big, like untapped resources that people don't understand that you can use your newsletter and the content you share when you make it links to surface leads. It's a way for people to raise their hand. Yeah. Right. So if you want people to pay you to improve their sales page. Share a link to a piece of content. You don't even have to create it. It could be some other piece of content that someone else created and go, Hey, check out this video about how to improve your sales page. Every single person that clicks that is at least thinking they want to learn how to improve their sales page. They literally have gone, Hey, I'm a potential buyer over here. Yeah. They Dylan Redekop: at least have some interest in it. Yeah. Josh Spector: Right. So then you can go to them one on one if you want, or send a, you know, follow up email, whatever. [00:31:00] But like, you can go to them one on one and you don't even have to reference that, you know, that you could just be like, Hey, you know, don't know if you're interested, even though, you know, they're interested, but don't know if you're interested, but I'm, you know, putting together a thing to help people improve their sales pages. Would you, you know, would you, whatever. And you know, you're talking to people that it's relevant to, you don't need to hit your whole list because the people that didn't click the free link About how to improve their sales page, probably don't care about how to improve their sales page. Yeah. And I'm going to give one other, one other sort of, I know I haven't exactly answered your question. I feel like I've answered it with like, here's a bunch of different things, but I really do think it's dependent. Yeah, Dylan Redekop: it is. Josh Spector: But I'll give you one more because I just read this and it was mind blowing. The simplest way to increase your revenues, to increase the prices of whatever it is you're currently selling or people are buying. And you don't have to increase the price as much to have an impact. I'm currently reading a book called Double Your Price, The Strategy and Tactics of Smart Pricing. By a guy named David Falsani. I'm [00:32:00] maybe 50 pages into it. It's pretty good. It's a little technical, whatever, but it's good. One of the stories he shared in there is he talks about how everyone at every level, and a lot of it's about bigger companies, but, but it's at all levels, right? Everybody misunderstands pricing. Everybody does pricing wrong. Everybody prices too low. There's all sorts of stuff, right? But he gives this example of there was a big, like travel company in the UK. They had a horrible year. They lost 163 million and went out of business. But he said, one of the problems that companies have is they, they don't understand pricing and they're not paying attention to it. He said, had that company just raised their prices by 1. 7%, they would have broke even for the year that the difference between them losing 160 million and going out of business. And then having a breakeven year was a 1. 7 percent price increase that they didn't do. And then he referenced another company that was in a similar situation and all they would have had to do was raise their prices by [00:33:00] 0. 8%. So these are big companies, but I think the premise is the same, right? If you want to. You know, grow what you're doing. There's chances are there's a lot of prices that you could raise even by very small amounts. They could have a serious impact in your business and a positive impact without a negative, you know, like, you know, if you raised your price by 2%. I don't think you're not going to lose any customers. Yeah. And yeah, you're not going to get rich overnight. It's not going to grow you by 10%, but it's going to grow you by 2%, you know, with basically no risk. So I think that's another really easy lever, depending what your business is, is a price increase of some sort on your existing customers. And depending what it is, even if you lose some, even if you do a bigger price increase, right? Let's say you're an advertising business and, or let's say you have clients on retainer. And let's say you, I'm not going to do the math here, but let's say you have, you know, five or 10 clients and you go, you know what, I'm raising everybody by Dylan Redekop: 10%. Josh Spector: Are they really going to leave? [00:34:00] Probably not. How many are going to leave? Right. You know, how, how many are going to leave and are enough going to leave that it's, that it's going to be net negative, or is it still going to be in that positive? Like, so again, if you're in that mindset of like, okay, how do I, how do I boost this? And the other thing I would say, you know, I've done this, the biggest spike I ever get in my ad sales is when I raise the prices of the ads because that moment before you actually do the increase. So if I go like, okay, my ads are 350 and it's going to go to 400. Buy now, this is the last chance you can get it for 350. I have a flood of buyers. Right. I did that with my skill sessions recently. And you know, my membership grew by 25 percent in a week before the price increase. Yeah. So that's another move that you can do is you can say, look, I'm going to announce that I'm raising the price of this thing. And suddenly everybody's going to buy. And that'll get you your, your increase quickly. Dylan Redekop: I think it's, uh, referred to almost as, um, I think maybe Caitlin Borgoyne has seen her talk about this, like the opposite sale or the anti sale almost. It's like, instead [00:35:00] of our prices going down for a period of time, the price is going up and there's a short period of time where it's going to stay what it is now. So basically get it while you can. Yep. Okay. Here's a quick question. I'm curious your take on it as it's kind of a popular topic in our space. Are we in a newsletter bubble? Josh Spector: No. A hundred thousand million percent no. Here's the thing. There is always room for. A quality newsletter that provides specific value to a specific audience. There's no such thing as a bubble. There's no such thing as too much. Now, if you are not a high quality newsletter that provides specific value to a specific audience, I would argue you're always in a bubble because it's ultimately never going to work. And so here's the thing that people miss also is people, you don't need subscribers. You need readers. And in order to have readers, You don't just need someone to give you your email, their email address. You need to basically be [00:36:00] one of their favorite newsletters. I subscribe to a million newsletters. I'm sure you do as well. But the truth is there's probably not more than a handful. That you really read every issue or almost every issue. The rest, sometimes you open them, sometimes you don't. You skim them, you whatever. Which is okay. There's still some value there. But I, what I think people don't understand is they think they need to create something good enough or compelling enough to get someone to subscribe. That's actually the easy part. You need to create something good enough, specific enough, valuable enough that you're going to be one of someone's favorite newsletters. And if you do that, there is no such thing as a bubble. The bubble talk is, I actually think there's people that think this is easier than it is. And because of that, because they think I just have to figure out how to get subscribers. When you realize, and I think that, by the way, I think there's lots of people running newsletters [00:37:00] that are maybe sort of successful or on their way. They think they're on their way to something, right? They're getting subscribers, they're using, you know, all the various newsletter recommendation tools. They're running ads, they're doing whatever. They're like, look at how this thing is growing. Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Josh Spector: But at the end of the day. If you're not creating something that is, again, good enough, valuable enough, specific enough to someone that it's going to be one of their three, four or five favorite must read newsletters, that's a bubble that's going to burst. You know, because ultimately you're going to fade away. Those people are going to unsubscribe or they're just going to not open or they're, you know, they're gonna, whatever, you're going to not be able to drive clicks. I drive way more clicks to advertisers in my newsletter than newsletters that are way bigger than mine, right? That engagement, you know, I have people, I have a lot of subscribers, but there's a lot of people that have a lot more than me. Sure. Yeah. My subscribers are opening, they're engaged. I may, you know, there's a lot of [00:38:00] people, again, I have no way of knowing this, but this is my own assumption. Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I have like 40, 000 subscribers, I am sure that there's newsletters out there that have 75, 000 subscribers. But I have more readers who say I'm one of their favorite newsletters than they do. Now, it doesn't mean they can't have a business. It doesn't mean they're going to fail. It doesn't mean that like I'm going to rule the world or whatever. But I do think there's a big difference between getting someone to subscribe and becoming someone's, you know, one of their favorite newsletters. And, and so I think that. If you can do that, I don't think there's ever a bubble. If you can't do that, then you're ultimately in trouble. And yeah, that bubble will burst because ultimately you're going to have a bunch of people who aren't reading it. Dylan Redekop: I don't think you can ever go wrong with kind of an ultimate goal of your content is to be You know, somebody's favorite favorite newsletter open. I want to ask [00:39:00] you because you've started a podcast now since one of your, I guess, somewhat recent ventures into content creation, but a year and a half ago, or actually coming up on two years. So is this statement true or false? Most newsletters would benefit by publishing a podcast. Josh Spector: I'm going to say false. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to say false. It's interesting because the way you phrase that, so I'm still going to say false. So would they benefit? Maybe, probably if you were to say most newsletters should start a podcast, I would absolutely say false, right? I don't think you should. Would they benefit from it? It probably wouldn't hurt, but I'm, I'm still, I'm still going to say false because the truth is. A podcast is a, is a whole other thing. I don't think in most cases a podcast is really going to grow your newsletter. I think the reason to start a podcast actually depends on, again, I view both of them as tools to accomplish other goals. So for me, A podcast made sense because [00:40:00] ultimately what I am selling either through consulting, either through my skill sessions, what I'm selling is my expertise and my ability to help people. It's the same reason why my podcast is mostly people asking me questions, not me interviewing other people. It's a showcase for my expertise because ultimately I want people to buy my expertise. So having a show, which is. What a lot of people do. And, and for experts, I think this is a mistake having, you know, if you're ultimately selling your expertise, having a show where you're just interviewing other people is just showcasing their, it's fine. And you can attract an audience, but it's not, it's not actually leading people to hire you by your, your thing. Right. So again, there's, there's an alignment question there. So for me and for experts, if you're going to do a podcast in that way, I think it, you know, It makes sense, but it's not actually my podcast isn't actually about my newsletter. It's just a separate tool that [00:41:00] allows me to showcase my expertise in a different way than my newsletter does, right? You can read my newsletter and you can read blog posts and social posts and whatever, and you can go, Oh, that's, that's pretty interesting. And he seems to know what he's talking about and whatever. But if you see me on a podcast, my podcast is actually just recording me consulting with people. So it really is showing you exactly what that product is, right? So for me, that's why, that's why the podcast makes sense. I'll give you an example. If my newsletter was just advertiser driven, my whole business was based on ads in my newsletter, and it wasn't based on selling my expertise, I don't think I would do a podcast because it doesn't having a podcast isn't going to help me sell newsletter ads, right? And if anything, the podcast would be a version of the newsletter, right? It would be another way to sort of do, do that. But so [00:42:00] that's not what I'm doing. So I think a podcast makes a lot of sense if it aligns with sort of what you're doing, but I don't view it as a sort of newsletter driver. Now, I don't know if you're going to ask this next or not, but the opposite. I do think every podcast should have a newsletter. The newsletter is my biggest driver of traffic and downloads to the podcast and views of the YouTube stuff. It's an incredible delivery mechanism. Look, I think everyone should have a newsletter, but I absolutely think if you have a podcast, you should have a newsletter. Yeah. But I don't think if you have a newsletter, you need that podcast. Dylan Redekop: You are the second guest we've had on in not consecutive weeks, but pretty close together who's had, who shared a Kind of the exact same, same vantage point on podcasts and newsletters. The other guest was Jeremy Enns, who you, I'm sure you know. Josh Spector: I love him. I love his podcast. Love his stuff. Yeah, Dylan Redekop: Jeremy's great and really insightful when it comes to this sort of thing as well. Cause he both does podcasting and writes a newsletter and he said the same thing. He's like, no, not every newsletter needs to publish a podcast. You know, some would benefit from it for sure. [00:43:00] But yes, every podcast should. 100 percent have a newsletter. Yeah. Just because it's kind of like the low hanging fruit. At the very least, you're sharing with your audience when you've released a new podcast. Discovery with podcasts is so hard. You may as well let people know when, when your new episodes are coming out and share as much as you can. So, all right, I was going to ask you another question about metrics, but I think you did a really good job answering, you know, that 99 percent blind, what metrics should you follow? So I'm going to avoid that one for now, but here's a question for you. Okay. What matters more than newsletter content and is there or is there anything Josh Spector: in context of what for a newsletter success or what do you mean by what matters more Dylan Redekop: so some people might say growth is the ultimate people should be focused on growth above of all things other people might be like, uh, I guess that what I'm trying to get at is all else equal. What matters more than content or does anything matter more than the actual content of the newsletter? Josh Spector: Yeah. I mean, Dylan Redekop: like Josh Spector: the, Dylan Redekop: the Josh Spector: way Dylan Redekop: you Josh Spector: promote it, I think, I mean, all these things [00:44:00] overlap, but, but I would say that. The value proposition of the newsletter, the premise, because ultimately your content should come out of that. So to me, if you're not clear and don't have a compelling value proposition, and I always talk about it in terms of like specific value to a specific audience, right? And in most cases, a transformation that you are helping them make right there at point a, they want to get to point B, your newsletter helps them do that. If you don't have that clear, your content comes out of that. Your content exists to help accomplish that goal to help with that transformation. So it's almost like they're related, but it's almost like that's a layer above the content. So for example. My newsletter exists to help experts grow their business. There's a million other great, cool pieces of content that I could create and share and find and whatever that don't align with [00:45:00] that. And if one week I'm creating great content about how experts can grow their business. And the next week I'm creating or sharing amazing content about something totally different, The content's great. The newsletter's not going to work. Dylan Redekop: Right. Josh Spector: Because it's not aligned to that premise. If the premise, if the transformation that I'm helping people make isn't one that, that an audience wants, if it isn't sort of specifically aligned or desirable, then also the great content's not going to matter and the newsletter isn't going to work. So I think sort of premise and value proposition is probably the most important thing and certainly more important to content because I don't, I don't think great content that doesn't align to a strong value proposition will not be successful. Dylan Redekop: Agreed. Couple last questions and then, uh, I think we can, we can wrap her up. But, um, let's still ask that, that question that I alluded to earlier. Give me your hottest take or spikiest point of view, if you will, for [00:46:00] newsletter operators. Josh Spector: This won't sound spiky, but then when I actually get into it, I think it is spiky because there's a very, I'm essentially saying almost everybody's doing it wrong. I think most newsletters are way overwritten, way overwritten. I have, I think I had posted it on Twitter. I might've even turned it into a blog post on my website at some point where I talked about like 10 ways to trim the fat in your newsletter. I remember that one. Yep. And. It's stuff that I see people doing all the time. And I think there's a lot of fluff in the average newsletter. And there's a lot of things that people do because I think they think it's the standard. And they just like with ads, right? They think this is the standard way to do ads. And I think it's a mistake. So I'll give a sort of a few of those things. So number one, I feel like almost every newsletter, if you do a word count when you're done writing it, and then you force yourself to delete, 10 to 15 percent of the words or more, it will be stronger. No matter how concise you think you are, I guarantee there's stuff in there that can be taken [00:47:00] out. The second thing is, I think most newsletter intros are horrible. This thing that people do where they're like, Hey, today we're going to talk about A, B and C. Well, you could just start talking about A, B and C. Right. I understand the intent of it if I want to let people know you're trying to make it easier for readers, but people skim anyway, right? So if your, if your newsletter is designed and organized in a way that people can skim and see the headlines, you don't need two paragraphs saying, I'm going to talk to you about this. Okay. Now let's talk to you about this. Right. It's not adding any value. The other mistake I see with intros is people will just have these sort of long winded intros that are not about the thing that they're not about what the value of the newsletter is, right? So the newsletter is about, again, I'll just use mine as an example, how to help experts grow their business. My intro should not be my kids and I went to the park this week. And we saw an amazing thing and this was so cool. And then I came back and then I finally sat down to write the newsletter. Personal stories are fine [00:48:00] if they align to the topic, right? So I can tell a story about taking my daughter to the park. If I connect it to a lesson for experts who want to grow their business or you have a personal newsletter, that's fine. You're writing a personal newsletter. You're not writing, you know, that intro should always be tied to if you're going to do an intro, you know, keep it quick, but also it should be tied to whatever the value proposition is of the newsletter. Another thing I think is, you know, when people are doing curated newsletters, summaries, tend to be longer than they need to be, even mine. So I share, uh, in my Sunday newsletter, I share usually like five links to five different articles and stuff that I've curated. What I used to do years ago was I would have the headline, I'd have a quote excerpt from whatever I was linking to, and then I'd probably have a three to four sentence paragraph summarizing what it is. What I do now is I have a headline and I have one sentence [00:49:00] and then I go on to the next one. And what I realized over time is that the entire point of this is to just tell people this is what it is and this is what you're going to get out of it. I don't need a quote excerpt. I don't need a summary. I can just condense everything. If they don't care about the headline and the one line thing that's basically like, here's what you're going to get, here's why it's valuable, then they certainly aren't going to care about the quote and the summary and the whatever. If they care enough about that, they're going to click it and they're going to go read it. Right. The, the, the goal, you know, the purpose of my newsletter and a curated newsletter is just that, right? Tease it and let them go. Yeah. Unless you're doing something else where your goal is to not have them read it and you're trying to provide the content in there, but that's a whole, that's a whole separate thing, right? Most curated newsletters and You're just sort of, it's a tip sheet basically, right? So I think there's, I think there's all these ways in which people are over writing their newsletters, [00:50:00] emojis, 8 million emo, not everything needs an emoji, like every line is a different emoji and all the, all this sort of stuff. And, you know, and I think a lot of newsletters are over designed. I just think there's, there's a lot of stuff. A lot of them are. And again, a lot of this I've learned, I've been guilt, you know, just like I used to write longer summaries. I used to include 10 things in my newsletter. Right. It was too long. It wasn't unnecessary. It wasn't like, they were all good and it sort of killed me to do it. But I remember talking to readers and people be like, Oh, it's like overwhelming. Like I see, I see some news, there's some newsletters that I, that I think provide really good stuff. But they provide so much of it that I find myself not opening them as much as the ones that are shorter. Right? Because I know if I open it, yeah, it's going to be good, but I don't have time to go through all of that stuff now. Right? Yeah. And so I think condensing it and even by the way, condensing it into. Multiple issues. So like, if you're going to curate 10 [00:51:00] things a week, let's say you would be better off sending two, five link issues a week than one 10 link issue. And I look taken to an extreme. That's how I wound up with a daily newsletter that has. You know, one pair, you know, one sentence in an ad, basically, and people loved it. You know, I started as an experiment and people are like, Oh my God, this is, you know, this is great. And they open it every time and they love it because they know opening that email for me on a Tuesday. Is a 10 second time commitment. Absolutely. And if they like the thing, they'll look at it and, you know, and that's it. And it's such a different, it's such a different mindset than what a lot of people do, which is again, coming from a good place, right? I think I should add this, that a lot of what these, what people are doing, the mistakes that I see in these things being sort of bloated and overwritten. They're trying to provide as much value as possible. They're doing those intros saying, here's what I'm going to talk about because they're trying [00:52:00] to help people and go like, Oh, this will help you. You know, like their intentions are good, right? They're sharing 10 things instead of five, because look how much value you're getting in this Dylan Redekop: thing. Josh Spector: But what they don't realize is there's this fine line between, you know, the most valuable thing for people is their time. You know, one of the, it's funny, we talked about metrics before, but. It's not necessarily measurable, but the metric that I really optimize everything for is what I call value per minute. How much value can I give you in the least possible amount of time? That's what I'm optimizing for. And when I look at my newsletter through that lens, I realize a one sentence summary is better than a one paragraph summary. Because that one paragraph is adding time without adding a significant amount of value. So that's how, that's how I think about it. Dylan Redekop: I think that was the mic drop right there. The value per minute. That was good. I have one last question I want to ask you, and then I want you to share where people can find you. But if you were to start your newsletter journey all over again, you've been doing it for eight years now. With everything you've learned, you've shared a lot of, a lot of great nuggets here [00:53:00] with us. But if you were to start all over again, what's the first thing you would do? I would try to get Josh Spector: as clear As I could on the result that readers are going to get from reading this newsletter. What's the, what's the outcome they want? How's this newsletter going to help them accomplish that? Now, I will say that as I found for myself, that will evolve and get narrower and more specific over time. Whatever you're going to have at the start probably isn't going to be as narrow and as dialed in as it will ultimately become. So I wouldn't sort of get paralyzed by that, but that's what I would try to do. So for example, when I first started my newsletter eight years ago, the description, the tagline, whatever was, I think it was like, learn how to become better at your work, art, and life. That's like everything. That's very broad, right? That's very like self improvement. So, and it reflected that, right? I would share something about like how to get a better night's [00:54:00] sleep. And then I share something about, you know, how to use Twitter. And then I, you know, it was much broader that eventually narrowed down to helping creators grow their audience in business. Okay. So the sleep stuff. went away. It got more narrow. It was a more clear result that I then realized, well, it's not really just creators. It's actually creators that are building businesses around their stuff. So it became help creative entrepreneurs grow their audience and business getting a little narrower. And then within the past year or so, I went from creative entrepreneurs to experts because I realized that. It's actually people that are, you know, the people that I really most want to help and focused on are people that are monetizing their expertise and that kind of stuff. Right. So again, that's an eight year transition continuing to get narrower and narrower and narrower and more specific. I also don't really, I now really say it's helping experts grow their business. I don't say grow their audience in business. Because now in my mind, [00:55:00] I have realized I don't want people that just want a bigger following. Yeah. That audience, growing your audience is a tool that helps you grow your business. I want the people that want to grow their business and that the audience is a piece of that, right? So narrower and narrower and narrower, and that will happen with whatever your niche is, right? Whatever you start at is probably going to be a little broader than ultimately where you wind, wind up at. Yeah. But I would try as much as possible. To like, if I were to start a newsletter now, I think my initial crack at it would be way more specific than what my initial crack at this one was because now I look at that and go, Oh, that was way, that wasn't specific enough. Also, by the way, a lot more competition now, which is another reason why you need to be more specific. If you're going to differentiate yourself, you know, eight years ago, there was not nearly as many newsletters. Now, if I were to start a newsletter, About how to get better at your work, art, and life. It's like, yeah, you and 8 million other newsletters. Yeah, exactly. So now I think that's even more important [00:56:00] than it was then. Dylan Redekop: And, um, That's where I'd start. I think there's people who, who hear that and think, well, that may be such a niche audience and I'll grow so slowly, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the point is that it's not the size of the audience. It's the specific avatar or person that you, you want to help and that you want to impact. Yeah. And Josh Spector: it, and it, and it ties to. You know, it ties to again, newsletter as a tool. What's your ultimate goal? You know, I'm amazed at people who are like, how do I get to 10, 000 subscribers? And I'm like, well, what's your goal? They're like, Oh, I want more clients. How many clients can you work with? 10. Why do you need 10, 000 subscribers? You need 10 clients. Yeah. Like, right. Like, I think that's another big thing is like understanding newsletter in context of what your actual goal is, changes your perspective on. On all of that, and I think that's really important to know, too. Dylan Redekop: Awesome, Josh. Well, thanks for all the time, all the info you shared. Uh, it's been really insightful. I've followed you for a long time, and I learned a bunch just from this chat with you, so I appreciate it. I want you to, uh, give us an opportunity to [00:57:00] share, um, where people can find you online and about a membership that you're, a promo that you're running. Josh Spector: Yes. So first of all, anyone that's been listening this far to the end, I, I've got a reward for you. Uh, I appreciate, appreciate your time and interest. So I mentioned it before my skill sessions membership, which you can check out at josh spector. com slash sessions. The membership includes a bunch of sort of one hour sessions where I teach you how to do specific things. A lot of them will help you grow and monetize your newsletter. So, for example, one is called the newsletter booster, which teaches you how to grow your newsletter in 5 minutes a day based on things that I have done. Another is called the newsletter social playbook, which shows you how to use social media to grow your newsletter and vice versa, how to use your newsletter to grow your social media. Again, all of this is based on the tactics that I have actually used. There's other sessions that, for example, the niche definer, which helps you a bunch of exercises to help you clarify [00:58:00] your niche. The client generator teaches you how to get clients. So all that kind of stuff, especially if you're an expert who wants to grow your business, it's amazing. In addition to that, as a member, we do monthly jam session calls, which are open Q and a's. So essentially you can ask whatever you want and get my help with your specific. Project. So it's like mini consulting. You get all of that for 350 a year. Speaking of pricing, I should charge more. That's a whole separate thing. But on top of that, uh, here's my special offer for you. So if you join again, go to joshspector. com slash sessions to join, then just shoot me an email. Josh at joshspector. com. Tell me you did so, and tell me you heard about it. From Dylan on the show, and I will send you a hundred dollar Amazon gift card. So basically you're getting the equivalent of a hundred dollars back. Happy to answer any questions anyone has about any of it or anything I've said on this show. Again, can email me josh at josh specter. com. Get my [00:59:00] newsletter for free at for the interested dot com slash subscribe. And that's probably enough of my rambling. Dylan Redekop: Amazing. That's good rambling. I appreciate it. Thank you, Josh. Um, uh, hop on that offer, folks, and follow Josh where you can. He he drops. Tons of dare I say truth bombs, knowledge bombs, uh, every week on the timeline. So, uh, follow Josh and, um, yeah, we look forward to following you Josh and perhaps having you back again in the near future. So thanks for doing this Josh and take care. Cool. Josh Spector: Yeah. Thank you so much. And I mentioned, I know, but to you before I, I love the show. I'm a fan. I listened to the Jeremy Enns episode recently. It's it's good stuff. So I appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. Dylan Redekop: Have a good one. Cool. Thanks for listening to this episode of the send and grow podcast. If you like what you heard, here are three quick ways that you can show your support. Number one, leave us a five star rating and review in the podcast app of your choice. Number two, email or DM me with some feedback with your questions or with [01:00:00] suggestions for future episodes. And finally, number three, share your favorite quote from the episode on social media and tag both me and our guest. All of the links for that are available in the show notes. And whatever option you choose, I am really grateful for your support. Thanks and see you next week.