Latest / Trapped Souls Podcast / The Scream of the Haunted House w/ Maxim Furek & Kristen Amanda(part one)

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The Scream of the Haunted House w/ Maxim Furek & Kristen Amanda(part one) · Trapped Souls Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, welcome to Traps Holes Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I am privileged to have Maxim Furick and Kristen Amanda on the show tonight.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as you saw, Maxim wrote the book that we were just talking about, and we're gonna continue talking about.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had the privilege to have Maxim on a while ago.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: This year.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Which which book was that?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_04: It was the I think it was the sh the Schmirl Hauntings.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: I would not read it.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: And Kristen, first time meeting her.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming on the show.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much for having us, and it's very nice to meet you.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, very nice to meet you too.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so we're gonna get right into this.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the first question is I'm gonna just throw some of these out there, you guys an answer.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I read the book, a little bit terrible at remembering stuff.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you guys will jog my memory with the book.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was a lot of information in that book, it was so detailed, so many names, like Maxims, all of his books have so many references.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's unbelievable.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone of you guys can answer this?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the first chapter in your book is all right, Mr.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: DeMille.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm ready for my close-up.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why did you begin your book in such an abstract, seriously manner?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: Kristen, what do you think?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: You have the uh background to answer this one.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was an actor for close to 25 years.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I get I get you know, living through the the eyes and the mind of other characters.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: But as a paranormalist, uh skeptical believer, uh the way what really struck me about that intro to the whole book, that that surrealist abstract way of doing it through the eyes of this actress, it made me think of um ghosts themselves, ghosts and the state of being a ghost and how that may affect you, how that may make you think, how are you perceiving the world?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because the actual actress that that chapter centers around, um, I as I recall, she it's Sunset Boulevard, it's a famous scene.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: She's walking down the steps uh to to like give give uh this interview, and she's like, hey, uh Mr.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: DeVille, I'm I'm ready for my close-up.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she's not really like, she's kind of not, she's not with it, she's not lucid, she's not understanding the actual reality.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so it made me think about it through the eyes of, well, what is it like for them over there?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that that just sent me down a whole rabbit hole thinking about that, you know, pondering the possibilities.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: And and what I try to do is this I mean, what's it like to be a ghost?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: Let's, and that was the starting point.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: And you look at this entities that was at one time human and had human characteristics and emotions and feelings and everything, and now they're they're in another state.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_04: And the question would be, how much of that uh humanness do they retain?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, can and again, then the the greater question is, you know, I mean, uh, with the afterlife, uh, you know, many of us, many religions, I think all religions and all mythologies believe in an afterlife, but uh, you know, so and which is is can we communicate with ghosts and spirits, poltergeist and demons, and they with us.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: So can we do that?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and that's the the question.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: I believe that all religions do that, although not all religions will admit to that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of religions will admit that they're spirits, but it's looked down upon to communicate with the spirits.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them, yeah.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the but it's interesting that that the this core idea for so many is that whether or not they look down upon them, they have something.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: They they have some kind of this concept of a ghost, of a spirit, of demonic things.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's interesting that it it's shared across the spectrum, I think.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a lot of commonality with uh the way we view these ghosts and spirits.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: And uh there's uh almost like a universal thing.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when I uh did my research, uh so many of the folks, I mean, uh the majority of the people talked about the concept of respect and that was imperative to go and respect the spirits and the location and all those.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: So that's just one thing.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_04: But there were a lot of interesting things that you know that came to the to the fore when I was doing my research.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, I uh really enjoyed this.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you so much for you know saying that it was well researched because I think you need to do that, you need to take a look at uh some of those researchers that agree with you and those that disagree with you, and just go with that, you know.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_04: And and uh, you know, uh, you know, you need that that psychic breath, you know, you need that uh that other information.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so so uh in that respect, I was pleased with the book.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: I think the book's my best one uh because it had flow, because it had Kristen's foreword and you know, blurb that it was a uh the the ghost hunter's Bible, but just it really came together, I thought, in a nice way.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I'm so pleased with this.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed it because you brought a lot of different aspects into what investigators believe.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like parental investigators believe there's spirits, ghost.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: They don't they shouldn't be investigating, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: But the question is, what are they?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Where are we talking them from?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you put all that in the book and you put different perspectives in the book, is which I liked.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: It just wasn't one person's perspective of what spirits are.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: You were doing a vast of what people thought and you interviewed a lot of people for too, and get their perspective, and that's what I liked about it.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you so much, I that it's you know, it's it's just so important for us authors to get well, as you podcasters, so imperative to get feedback to let us know where we stand because uh, I mean, I I know a lot of times I live in a vacuum, it's like the twilight zone.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: Nobody's talking, nobody's saying, hey, you know, I read your book and I like this or I dislike that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: So a lot of times we don't get that feedback, but we do on these podcasts, you know.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: So people will go and you know, ask questions and uh and I have to say this.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I really want to want to thank you, Ryan, and and you fellow podcasters, because this is something that we really need as a you know, as an author uh who doesn't have an agent or a manager or any of that, you know, you know, these podcasts really help me to get my name out there and to talk about my research.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: So uh let's hope that the podcast world continues, you know, with free speech and uh and all that.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: And hopefully we could go and continue to do these and talk about the things that we talk about.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: So and police ourselves, you know.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we're doing good so far.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: So we don't need any uh governmental intervention or interference, you know, about this.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think we're doing fine.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I mean, every podcast I've been on, I think it's been except for one, has been uh pretty honorable.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um oh no, you'll have to tell me about that after the show, Max.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Was it me?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Was it me?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't want to talk about it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um I could probably guess it.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to um so Kristen, like paranormal ghosts.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you think they are?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you think where they are?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy, boy, I that's that's a a multifaceted question in ways you cannot imagine, Ryan.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I did spend a whole year on ghosts.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: That was one of my core subjects.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I started the season out believing in them, just not understanding why or why I thought the way that I did about them.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is this intelligent?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: What is this residual energy you speak of?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: What is a poltergeist?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, it's weird.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it is.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a demon?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have all these questions, like, you know, stirring around my head.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So finally got to just sit down and look at it just at the nuts and bolts level clearly.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I still don't have a clean answer to give you right now as to what is a ghost, like like what makes up a ghost.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we theorize it's it's made of certain kinds of energy, and those certain kinds of energy they can be uh captured and documented by various tools of the trade.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is residual?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we theorize that it's a replay of a very emotional or traumatic event from the past, and it's captured in certain materials and now it just replays.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a holographic, spooky movie that we can see, you know, every now and then.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: But what is a ghost?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it has to go back to what I originally thought it was, which is still theory.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people are gonna argue it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's the visage of it's the spirit of a person who was once alive.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's it.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I do believe that.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know that Maxim, he's more skeptical than I am and more academic than I am.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I lead with my heart, baby.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and I I don't just tie that into things that I have learned, uh, things that I have read.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I tie in my own experiences, which I I have had certain experiences that makes me fond of that theory.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me believe it even more.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Cause, like, well, I mean, I think that's what happened.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what it was.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do think I talked to my my passed on brother-in-law.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that's what happened.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it gives me comfort to think that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we recently uh sold our home in northeastern Pennsylvania and we lived there for 36 years.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: There was a woman named Nancy who allegedly died in the bedroom.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, many times uh, you know, my wife would stay up until say 11 o'clock watching TV or whatever, but I would go to bed earlier and I would feel her presence.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: I would feel her getting into bed, I would feel the covers and everything, and I would look and nobody's there.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: But this happened frequently, it happened to not only me, but also to my wife.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it was Nancy letting us know that she was there, nothing frightening, just maybe sending a message.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, and that was the only thing in bed.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: I can't remember of anything else that happened, but when we left, when we sold the house in September and left, I thanked Nancy for allowing us to stay in her house, you know, told her that we respected her.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then I told her as we were leaving that I didn't want her to follow us, I wanted to just stay there.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: So that was, I think I said that respectfully.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, and uh again, this was based on uh interviewing so many other ghost hunters and what they do as they leave.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I just thought that this might be a good, respectful way to go and at least set the parameters and tell Nancy what I was feeling.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I bel I believe in that.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I believe there was something there, something tangible.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, and again, I have no doubt that it was this entity, this person that was known as Nancy.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, that's my story.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, I'm a skeptic, but I mean, I lived through that, you know, I experienced it.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, um, you know, maybe once or twice feeling something that feels like a touch, you know, once or twice is a coincidence, but when it's three or four, five, six, ten, twelve, twenty-four times, you know, come on, you know, there's something to it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So and then yeah, sometimes it takes for certain people these undeniable personal experiences.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some of my favorite stories, is the skeptic who's like, Yeah, that's that's hogwash, but there was this one time.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I love those stories so much.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_04: And one thing about the paranormal is like it's it's so difficult, if not impossible, to define.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: We're always trying to define it, to put terms on it, putting it into certain categories and genres and all that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: But there's the possibility that we may never get to the truth.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: We never never get to the bottom.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: It may be unknowable, as Lovecraft said.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a lot of good theories bouncing around about that.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: So we get as close to it as we can, but um, you know, we'll see.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it may be based on different laws and you know, uh, you know, and physics and uh, you know, all that things that we don't really understand or know at this point, but uh but there's plenty of people doing what we do, you know, looking for these ghosts and trying to understand this and uh, you know, and making a business out of it with dark tourism.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: So there's just a whole lot of facets there, and you know, it's just I think it's just such an exciting topic.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, and everybody, everybody has stories, and you know with me, when people come up to me, they'll say, they'll tell me, they won't ask me about my my wisdom and knowledge, they don't want that, but they'll tell me about their experiences, typically, typically it's about the orbs and it's about dead people that they talk to, and that's usually their family members.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: So that's what I hear.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_04: Kristen, do you get any of that?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you get the a gosh, yes, all all all the time, absolutely?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it just it it's weird because at one point I I would have had a lot more doubt about the stories that people would have told me back in the day, but because of now my own personal experiences, it it took those undeniable experiences of my own, and it took hearing these stories over and over and over again from people over the past six years to be like, I yeah, I I have no doubt that you you you experienced something.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's amazing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, I'm a lot more open to that now.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Same with Sasquatch.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: And by the way, with Sasquatch, Ryan, there's been a whole lot of sightings in Ohio.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: What's up with that?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_04: There's weird.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: What is going on out there?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have a theory.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know if you want to hear it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I do.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: One was marijuana legalized in Ohio.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: Oh in 2025.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: This year, or I mean in 2026.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's when the saw the sighting started happening.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Just saying.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's the only theory I have to do.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's Reefer Madness.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it's Reefer Madness in Ohio.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: Reefer Madness.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, okay.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Great musical.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love Reefer Madness.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you guys made two very strong points, each of you.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first, Kristen, what our ghost.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: If that's not enough for people to listen to or watch your podcast, I don't know what is.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because you said the famous, the words I love the most, I don't know.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: That is the best words I can hear from a paranormal investigator.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then the second best word, Maxim said, respect.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll keep my stuff.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll go to a second question here.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you messaged him mentioned him a little earlier, Lovecraft.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you've always celebrated HP Lovecraft as the greatest horror writer of all time.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: What is your connection?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: What does his connection to the haunted house mean?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: Well, when I was writing uh paranormal apocalypse, I used his quote, uh, and he said something like this that uh fear is the most uh powerful human emotion, but uh but fear of the unknown uh is the most powerful.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: So uh he talked about that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't think any theologian or scientist has been able to go and frame that as well as he did.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: So that was pretty much the concept of paranormal apocalypse, you know, using fear uh guiding, or not guiding, but just you know, uh uh you know, sort of shoving us into certain directions and everything.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: So I think a lot of people are, you know, are uh in fear, uh based in fear uh because of uh organized religion, because of politics, because of uh just society, a lot of things.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um with uh Scream of the Haunted House.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't fear, but it was uh a trio of things.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think the majority of the uh ghost hunters that I talked to talked about respect, intention, and patience.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: And you need all three when you go and uh go to these haunted locations, and certainly you know, you need to respect the location and any entities that are there, and your intention better be right.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: And with patience, you just wait for things to present themselves.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you can't make it happen, you know, you can't conjure.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's another topic.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you can, but you you you you have to wait for something to go and show up, and a lot of times it doesn't, and a lot of times ghost hunting is a bit boring, and a lot of times going out there looking for Sasquatch is the same thing, that you come back empty-handed.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: But what you do come home with, you have this camaraderie, you know, if you go with a group.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: So you have this uh, you know, this group think, you have this group, this bonding experience.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's probably the one of the uh most important things about ghost hunting and looking for Bigfoot, that you know, that you bond together with a group.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: And uh so I think that that's an important thing.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, respect, intention, and patience are the uh, you know, the three uh variables I came up with that I think you know pretty much taught uh you know identify uh the Scream of the Haunted House.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I I I don't have anything to say about HP Lovecraft at all.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know him as as well as Maxim, but I know it was a favorite of his, but I I I can add to what Maxim was saying there because it's one of my favorite chapters that he's edging into, chapter five, and it's the rules of ghost hunting.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where those, you know, those like top three like shining emotional psychological things shine in this book.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: The respect, the patience, the intention, ghost investigator after ghost investigator is is usually going to say one of one of these three things, if not all.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I feel like you know, Maxim includes a lot of rules, like I think it's a set of 10 rules that he's heard from numerous investigators.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: He he he interviewed like over well over a hundred of them for this book, and they all had different things to say, you know, like respect the history, be sure to get permission, beware of strangers while you're out on location.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like as someone, I per I personally am not a paranormal investigator, that's not how I classify myself, but I do go paranormal investigating.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I've learned some tricks of the trade as well.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like if you are an investigator, even if you do nothing else, if you can get respect correct, if you can get just that one, I think everything else will fall into place for you.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: Good point.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, the the criticism of uh some of these naive or I don't know, just naive ghost hunters is that they're looking for the drama, they're looking to get the attention, they're looking to get on a program, you know, after experience or something.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: So a lot of it is about chasing that, chasing the fame rather than the experience.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I think most of the people are looking for that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it must be, and again, I haven't, you know, I don't think I've ever experienced that, but just to be able to make contact, I mean, what that feels like, I mean, that gotta be one of the most awesome things.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: It goes beyond our six senses, it's something else, you know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's communicating with an entity uh on the other side, an entity that we don't quite understand, you know.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, again, that's powerful stuff.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_04: And and we have believed in the spirit world, you know, since day one.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's you know, with variation.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, very big during the Civil War, you know, but and in the 20s and 30s, and it's and it's come back.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: And we need this.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: I think with the chaos and turmoil in the world, with all the uncertainty, you could go to one place.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: You you could go to a podcast that talks about common themes and it's a family and it's shared values, and it's a it's a good thing.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's a good thing.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's our it's our community.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I think we need to respect that and uh do everything we we can to keep it above board and keep it as close to the scientific as we can.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that's I think ultimately where we're gonna get our get the ultimate respect, you know, from the scientific community.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: So uh I'm big on that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, I I but again, I think the paranormal community has been doing a great job, and you know, you know, you don't hear a whole lot of um you know things that that are upsetting.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: So well, you're not really into the paranormal community then.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I wasn't gonna say anything.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's pretty bad right now.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, if you're talking if you're talking about um social media, maybe yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: I know with the Patterson Gimblem film that's blowing up.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: We're getting a lot of a lot of stuff like that.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, the most of the the uh negativity I see comes from Bigfoot hunters that are just pointing fingers at each other.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know what where that's coming from, but just it's you know, it's that's not respectful.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I do see that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, I just try not to talk about and promote it because it's you know, I mean, you find that with everything.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: Even even okay, even with me as a single individual, as a uh uh paranormal author and researcher, I get beat up because I I'm not boots on the ground, because I don't go looking for That's like a check mark against me because I don't go ghost hunting.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: There's another one.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm at I'm an academic.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: There's number three.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I think, I think some people, you know, some people are just very critical.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there was one um, this was in Western Pennsylvania, and somebody put on the internet, they talked about people getting invited to to conferences, and I get invited to a lot, but people get invited to conferences only because they're good at public speaking and they could put a couple of sentences together.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: So that was a negative.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: They were using that as a negative.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm thinking, come on, you know, I mean, talk about the dumping down of America, you know.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_04: Shouldn't we articulate?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_04: Shouldn't we pronounce our syllables distinctly?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, don't want, don't we want to use the king's uh English?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, doesn't that make the paranormal community better when we do that?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: When we, you know, raise our best voice, our most proper voice.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I mean, the hits keep on coming.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, they're they're they're out there.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_04: And but I think that the more you climb, the more you accomplish, the more your name is getting out there, the more you're you got a target on your back.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, that's fine.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's fine.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_04: I think we can handle that, but um, you know, but but but I yeah, I do get get my criticism as well.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a weird that hierarchy that and it does contribute to the infighting.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: It can it can be.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people, especially in Bigfoot, uh I've seen it quite quite uh a bit in Bigfoot, you know.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not like, okay, are you woo or are you physical, like that dividing line between the two?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've experienced Bigfoot.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you just write about it.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, okay.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's just like this weird like one-up ism that that can occur uh very easily.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have seen that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: Although a lot of those boots on the ground Bigfoot folks are starting to believe in the interdimensional theory because they're coming up with shorthanded, so they're thinking, wait, this may be something else.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_04: So I think they're coming around, you know.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_04: So they're just interesting, as woo as I am.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I think Kristen probably could attest to this being a podcaster herself, is I mean, you've done investigations.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you learn more?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Talking to people or investigating?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh I'm probably not gonna give you the answer that that you want because I feel like it's two different classrooms.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's certain levels of of the knowledge that you're gonna learn better if you are being boots on the ground, hands-on, which is awesome.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you're only gonna learn certain things when you're hands on.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the bulk of what I have learned has probably been through talking to people who are smarter than I am, who have done the thing that I haven't done, who have seen the UFO.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's where the bulk of my knowledge base comes from.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I would have never ex I never expect that when I start my podcast, but I've learned.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not just talking about, yeah, we can go out, learn equipment, maybe get that voice, you know, on your EVP, but theories of what ghosts are.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm like, I think you're gonna get a lot more theories and questions.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're never gonna get, I mean, we get some answers, but it's always questions on talking to people.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: That that's one of my most exciting like conversation.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I love just talking theory, you know.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even need the answers, I don't need you to tell me.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: I know, yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, theory you can do anything, you can go into it's everything, yeah.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know some people that have all the answers if you want them.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can study your study of contacts.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: They tell me all the time, they know the answer.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: I but I think Kristen hit it on the head.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: I think the uh most important thing for all of us to do is just to listen.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, Stephen Covey talked about the seven most seven secrets of the most successful people.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: And listening was the first one, you know.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: Seek to understand before being understood.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: And what that means is just shut up and listen to the other person.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: You don't need to hear my story, you know.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, I want to know yours.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: If I want to learn and grow, I need to stop talking and just listen to the other person.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: That's how we learn.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: And again, talk about theories.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, everything we know, we can just go and make it a little bit more, you know, just give it more nuance, uh, more parameters, all that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_04: And that's by talking to other people and you know, and listening to, I mean, genuinely listening to what they have to say.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, we have a lot of good people in our in our field, you know, a lot of knowledgeable people.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that goes with the best game too.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you need to shut up and listen.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Some people will just not learn that that lesson.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Shut up.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: But no, that's where you know, like some of those those rules will come in too, you know.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, your intention and having patience.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like fishing for eight hours sometimes.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you gotta just be quiet and listen.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's fishing, not catching, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so your books always associate the paranormal with psychological.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: In your previous book, Paranormal Apocalypse, you cite fear.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: We already talked about fear, and I want to get Kristen's input on this as our greatest motivator, the scream of the haunted house.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Are you focusing on another emotion during that?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that that would be like like the penultimate emotion that it is about is that respect.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I mean, I feel very passionately about that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of the reason like I love that particular chapter where it kind of breaks it all down, but respect rises to the top there.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: That if there's anything somebody can carry away from this psychologically, emotionally speaking, it's that respect.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it took me a while to just learn that on a personal level, being a young podcaster, getting into the paranormal and like, okay, well, what sells?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: What do people want to hear?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's about the fear.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I started, you know, just like Maxim's last book.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: That was about fear, fear of fear of the unknown.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very strong, palpable emotion.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I started.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And just through experience and listening and learning and just getting better at my craft, respect uh takes the place of that.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it does, it steps right in.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's what I want people to take away from this.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's where we need to be.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, again, we just need to step up and be more professional and be more ethical.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: And just do, I mean, I think everything should always be predicated on what's the best thing, what's the gold rule, what's the best thing for the good of the order?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: What can we do?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: Or how do my actions and behaviors and words contribute to or impact upon the paranormal community?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: That's what it is.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: And again, uh I'll say this as a writer.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I pride myself in being a uh a good writer only because you know I have proofreaders and I do my research and all that.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it's my contribution.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've read books that aren't so good that have a lot of typos and errors and just aren't well written.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, what does that do for the community?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, the best we can, I mean, we do the best and we offer the best, some of us, but not all of us.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, that's one thing I'm concerned with.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_04: But um, you know, I think we should be able to go and differentiate between contributions to the paranormal world that are, you know, exceptional, and then those that are maybe not so exceptional, maybe are uh second rate and haven't aren't that well done and need to be, and need to be.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, I could give you a million examples, but I don't want to come across as some disgruntled author taking pod shots at other people.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just saying the reality is that there's some of the books that are out there that simply are not that good.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_04: And they could be better, you know, if they were proof-read, if they were there were fewer type real typos, you know, if um uh they were just more, just better read, better written than research.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: That's all.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's all I'm saying.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: How does that sound?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: Does that sound like condescending, like God, like idiot?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_04: Come on.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was just listening to understand, not to not to be understood.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Forget it.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's do it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, it it sounds like you're just saying take pride in your work.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think yeah, exactly.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and and I do, and uh, you know, so anyway, hopefully other people do it too as well.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: So you know that's it.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, uh criticism doesn't sell well, you know.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you really can't go and uh you know get get away with it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_04: So here's an example, so okay.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in paranormal field, it's huge right now.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people criticize everybody, everybody's bashing everybody.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh I'm trying to get it better.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's my goal.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let people get along.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like well, my last podcast was stop focusing on the two percent negative, focus on a 90% positive.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's my message to everybody right now, and that's what I'm going with.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll see if it sticks or not.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: I have to explain this a little bit.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: An interesting chapter in your book describes dark tourism and lottery chasers.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: And what way does that fit in your concept of the haunted house?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so what are lottery chasers?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: You want to define that for me?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for sure.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, the dark tart tourism is what is that billion-dollar industry where people would much rather go to a place like Lizzie Borden's house or uh Amityville, you know, places where there was bloodletting or there's like some trauma.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_04: And they would rather go there and visit that than say the Liberty Bell or something that's more mainstream and conservative.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: So that's dark tourism.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: And it's really big with say Generation Z and Millennials.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they they're they're doing this, I mean, like in in big order.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: So there's you know, a lot of uh numbers with that demographic.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um lottery chasers are this.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: There are, and I know uh I have a friend, Shadow Steele, he's in the book, but him and his wife, uh, they have the wherewithal to do this, they have the resources to travel and do this.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_04: But he went to Esther Spark, Colorado, where Stephen King wrote The Shining, you know, the um uh Stanley Hotel, and they spent thousands of dollars just to stay in the room where Stephen King, you know, where the uh the one incident happened.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I forget how much he spent per night.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_04: They he had to spend, he had to pay for, I think it was five nights when he was only saying staying three.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: So he spent, I don't know if it was 10,000 or 20,000 there, and they did the same thing at the Lizzie Borden house.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_04: But again, that's lottery chasers.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: If you have the money you put in the lottery thing, if they pull your number, you could go to this event that will be you'll have other paranormal groups with you.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, it'll be uh well attended and uh uh you know, and it'll be memorable, and and that's what it is.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: But it's it's money, you know, you're paying money for this experience, it's getting a vicarious thrill, but it's paying for that thing, and it's another another means of um another uh slice of dark tourism, which is is huge, it's big.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when I just take a look at all these paranormal conferences popping up all over the place.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, my God, I mean, at some point this thing, this thing levels off, and then you know, I mean, right now we're still we're still reaching critical mass, but they're just popping up all over the place.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, there's a need for this.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_04: People love these things, both Bigfoot and Paranormal.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when it levels off, there will be something else in its place.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm certain of it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and why is that?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: Why would there be something else?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because it's it's an innate, I don't know, intuitive thing.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: We have to have that thrill, we gotta see I don't know, the dark stuff.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's it's a morbid curiosity in folks, and we're just so curious.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_04: And Jung talked about that, and even back when uh who was it?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um Ian Stevenson.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: No, he wrote no uh God coming on blocking.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_04: He wrote uh Dr.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: Jekyll and Mr.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: Hyde Stevenson.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_04: We know his name.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: He was from uh Scotland, and he wrote this about the mayor, this guy that he was a mayor by day and a burglar by night.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: So uh uh Robert Lewis Stevenson, thank you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Robert Lewis Stevenson wrote about that, and we started to look at this about the dark side.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: You know, do we have a dark side?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_04: We started to talk about this, but this was all Freudian stuff.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: This was all taking a look at the human being and look at at uh you know what we were capable of.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I think Robert Lewis Stevenson's uh Dr.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: Jekyll and Mr.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_04: Hyde was one of the uh initial uh events that had us focus on that topic, which is you know just very alluring and fascinating.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we can't get enough about it with all the uh the villains out there.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when you read the James Patterson books, James Patterson's books, the villains are the ones that are the that we read about because they're the most interesting and we love them and hate them, you know, and they have there's a reason why they're so angry and why they're doing all the bloodletting.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, so the you know, and and then this has even evolved further.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we don't just talk about the bad guy, but we talk about the hero that is you know part good and part bad.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: He's uh like the anti-hero.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, he there's a lot of baggage in his in his is in his back in his background.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, we talk about that too, but that's um perhaps another uh for another podcast.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: But um, yeah, but uh you know, good and evil, uh you know, they're you know uh something that we're all fascinated with.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I think dark tourism takes us there, you know.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: Let's uh let's just take a look at that vicariously.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: We could experience the same thing, but only you know, in in a in a safe location, you know.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: So then we get to go home and be our normal selves again.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean dark tourism and lottery lottery chasers.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's a story to be told.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the main purpose.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like I stayed at the Stanley Hotel for three nights.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I want the Waverly Hills, what other big ones?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: OSR, not a fan.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but I mean, Trans Allegheny, Unhurst.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do those places really interest me?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Not really.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: But you do it to say you did it, and that's where they're that's why people are doing these places.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Lizzie Borden, famous place, haunted place, dark place.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: People always ask, have you done Lizzie Borden?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's no why not?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Does not interest me.
• 37:09
  unknown: Okay.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: Will I one day just to say I did it?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Probably.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, as an investigator, it's like you have to do those places people know about.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I think that's where the dark tourism lawyer chasers come into effect.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: They're not doing it though, they're doing it to get the experience, but they're doing it to say they did it also.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think it it ties in uh somewhat to dark tourism, just an underlying thing in what you're saying to do it so you can tell the story.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's what separates dark tourism from the things that people might have done once upon a time, you know, go go to an art museum, soak in history somewhere, you know, go see the Liberty Bell.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could go climb Mount Everest for the story, but you know, choosing to choosing to go on a ghostly place and and do that instead.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a better story.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know what, but people do something, do something.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, you know, uh find your passion and and and enjoy that passion and do what brings you passion.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, I just think there's a lot of you know people that are bored and miserable because they're not really, I don't know, not really enjoying life.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm just just chasing.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: And for your listeners, I mean, you know, just go and you know, follow your dreams and and all that, do what makes you happy.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there's there's a lot of joy in being a human being, there's a lot of joy with human connection, and uh, you know, for the folks out there that may be lonely tonight or you know, whatever, I mean, just you know, there's uh people you can reach out to and talk to.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that that we all should.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think we need people in our lives, and that's what just makes our lives so much richer.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: And again, you know, uh having those people in our lives and listening to what they have to say.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: So it's as as elemental as that, but it's as precious as that.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_04: And not it not everybody can do that, you know, people that are just based in, and maybe it's a ghost, I don't know, but a person who's just has a whole lot of a lack of self-esteem and self-worth, you know, may not be able to make that human connection because they don't feel that they're worthy of it.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, they can't look another person in the eye and feel, you know, on equal setting, on equal grounds.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I think there's a lot of that.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_04: And again, I bring some of this with my background of psychology because I mean it's an it's important to take a look at that.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, I mean at least you know, for people like me.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, you're right.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Do something.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I do podcasts, I go out on investigations, and it's a nice break from reality.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um gives me a break from my you know, 40, 60 hour a week job I do.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Get away and just not think about life.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: I guess think about past life after.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's what I do.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_04: I just I just started to get back into reading.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'm reading a murder mystery, but that's one of my great joys.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, just to go and get locked in there and actually get interested in this and fall and follow it from the beginning to end, to read that and to have all those visuals, you know, that doesn't come from Hollywood or Madison Avenue, they come from yourself.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_04: You make those visuals, and that's just the best part about reading.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I also got back into reading.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing paracons.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I every paracon I go to, I buy books, they're just interesting books.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_04: They're just and you're supporting the paranormal community, right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_04: And supporting authors, and it and it's good at this time because a lot of people don't read, right?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people don't read, and that's sad.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_04: That is very sad.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, just like kids, I don't think the kids are doing the curse of writing anymore, right?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's correct.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, they're not they're not really teaching that anymore.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I learned something fascinating about reading.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to derail us too much, but I think you guys will enjoy it as well.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know that not everyone watches that internal movie in their head as they're reading?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: They they just take the information from the words, they don't see images in their heads.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't I didn't know that.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't realize you could actually do that.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh apaphania, I think it's called.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Where yeah, and whenever you think, you know, you don't you just don't see visuals in your head.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's just your thoughts.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's just how you think.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's a different way to think.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_04: There's a term called anadonia.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Anidonia.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Anodonia, okay, yeah.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it is?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it was.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was like, you get you get no thrill from anything.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe I'm confusing the terms.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Carry on, guys.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna look it up.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_04: Anadonia, I think, is when you don't get uh a thrill from anything, you're just like flatlined, you know, you don't have any joy or anything.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_04: The other thing though, not being able to conjure up uh visuals as you're reading, that's interesting.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_04: And uh uh boy, I don't know, I don't know if that's a that would be terrible.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_04: I is that a form of autism?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not from what I understand because it it's so widespread.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's more widespread than you would think.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I you should do this, try this just with a couple of friends over the next week.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Just ask them like, hey, when you read a book or or you're you're thinking of like if I'm telling you a story, do you see uh like an internal movie or do you hear your own thoughts in your head?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Some people don't hear their own voice in their head, which is really interesting.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Apaphenia is the human tendency to perceive.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's not it.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have to get you the term.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'm really I'm really curious.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm gonna get it for you because it's such an interesting concept.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I have no idea people could actually do that.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, how could you not?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't think the brain works that way.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: I live for reading because I I really enjoy those movies in my head, you know?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, don't stop.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so they're just reading the words and not I guess reading the words, but not hearing the story, I'm guessing.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right, or just not able to see it or to to not hear your own voice in your head, like you know, I do that sometimes when I read too, or just thinking to myself, like this is yeah, and this is uh Ryan, this is the time of the program where I do my survey and hang on one second.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_04: So, Ryan, you read uh the Scream of the Haunted House, right?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: And did you contribute a review to Amazon?
• 43:31
  unknown: Yes.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, that's good.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, okay, Kristen.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: The Scream of the Haunted House.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: I sure did.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, and did you uh offer a review on Amazon?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's in the works.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's in the works.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta get my people to talk to your people.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get it over there.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone listening who's watching now and will watch on the replay, uh please, that's you know, Maxim, uh he he deserves the review.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: For this one, especially, but like it's great to do that for authors, and nobody ever thinks if you enjoy the book, get give it a review, it helps out so much more than you think.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and even with the podcast, too.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, like the podcast, I mean, it does something for the algorithm, you know, it shows people that there's interest there that people are reading and they're connecting.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_04: So we need that.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I mean, again, you know, like I was bashing some of these authors for not being real good.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_04: There's other books that I see that have thousands of reviews.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: And man, I mean, it it takes so much just to get 10, 20, 50.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just wondering how these people are able to get thousands of reviews.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's some there's some books that are classic that are good that deserve that, but um, I don't know.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't know what that magical thing is that you can do to get those, you know, uh get the review the reviews on Amazon.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_04: So, but it's important.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_04: And for all the listeners out there, if you purchase any of my books or if you purchase any books from paranormal folks, you know, be sure to do a uh review on Amazon.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's very important to us.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's sort of like our holy grail, you know, just like it just means so much.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, even if it's a couple of words.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're not even halfway through these questions here.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um you pick your favorites.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk to about the MFL horror fascinated.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Why is it why did that fascinate us so much?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I know it fascinates Maxim W.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: Furick, I'll tell you that.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: So um it's sort of it's a uh a story in several acts.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the one was uh 23-year-old uh Ronnie DeFayo, he was a rich kid.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_04: You know, his parents were very wealthy.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_04: They lived in Amdeville, Long Island, and the kid walked around with thousands of dollars in his pocket, new cars, lots of girlfriends, uh did heroin and methamphetamine, and then he was prescribed thorazine.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, he had some issues, but he killed his family, killed his two parents, his two sisters, and his two brothers.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: And we can't let that go because that's like a modern day version of Cain and Abel.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's just a horrible, horrible thing that we still look at that.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was a, you know, it looked like it was a good family.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but anyway, but but Butch went crazy.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_04: He claimed that he was uh possessed by a demon, and that's why he did it.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_04: So they had a court trial, and they knew that if they they didn't prove him uh guilty, you know, I mean, this would this would have been an interesting case uh for somebody getting away for demonic possession, but they claimed that he was, they were able to prove that he was a personality disorder, he needed immediate gratification, and he had no remorse or compassion for his fellow man.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_04: So that was the first act.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: So the house is vacant vacated, and then George and Kathy Lutz came around.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_04: They paid$80,000 for it.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: This is like a mansion,$80,000 was a lot of money.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, God, it's a lot of money today.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_04: But they uh it was a real bargain.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: But George and Kathy only stayed there for 28 days, driven out by demonic infestation.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_04: The the knocks, the rattles, the uh lower temperatures in certain rooms, the little girl talking to the talking, I think it was the talking pig.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: The flies at the thing, you know, house flies, just all kinds of things.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, just you know, your tip, it's kind of sort of like your typical haunted house thing, but they claimed that they were driven out after 28 days.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: So, so that was the second act.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_04: The third act was Jay Anston's publicist, and and he was the guy who wrote the Amityville Horror.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_04: But his publicist claimed that he could make money by writing a book about this.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: So, what they did was they gave a tape recorder to George and Kathy, they they gave him 48 hours of tape-recorded recollections of this haunted house, the 28 days.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_04: So Jay Anston was able to go and transcribe that and write the Amityville horror, which was huge, uh, you know, uh with the book selling so many copies, I mean, you know, millions of copies, and then the the motion pictures.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_04: But that was uh this the second part.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_04: So the book came out and had all this notoriety with other books and other motion pictures, which showed just how this had really tapped into the zeitgeist of the you know the the uh the public site uh psyche.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: And then the third act, I think, that happened when Jay Anston's lawyer claimed that he conjured up the Amityville horror uh over a couple of bottles of wine.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: And he claimed that you know they got drunk and they wrote this up, and this is you know, this is uh the final word, this is how it came to be.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: I don't believe that.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_04: I just think that anybody could write a book about Amityville and it's gonna be it's gonna make money.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's a cottage industry.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: There's a lot of interest in this for whatever reason.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it just taps into our dark side.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's really what it is.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_04: And when you talk about a family that's slaughtered, you know, like patricide, matricide, familieside, I mean, words that we don't even know.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_04: So Amityville has it all.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_04: Uh George Lutz turned to Catholicism.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_04: He became a Catholic.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: He claimed that the thing was real from the until the very end.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what it was.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_04: So at the end, though, it's just it's interesting how so many people that are tortured and tormented also have to go and deal with the public saying that it was a con, it was a hoax.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it happened with it happened with Amityville, it happened with the Schmirl haunting, it happened with the the uh you know the the Wells House.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you you know, all these places, you know, seem to uh you know have their critics.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_04: Certainly with the Schmirl haunting, the public's biggest complaint, I guess, was that the Schmirls did this to make money, and that's why they went through all this.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, who would do that?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_04: What father would expose his family to such you know horrors and you know, all that stuff, you know.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_04: I don't believe that at all.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: I believe that there's you know truth to this, but you know, with the public, they get critical, it's like mob action, it's like a mob mentality, and they pile on and it be it's it's groupthink, it's people thinking along the same lines.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: It was you know, saying that, for example, the the uh schmirl haunting was was a hoax, it never really happened.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: And if enough people talk about that and say that, that becomes the reality.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll tell you what, being from northeastern Pennsylvania and collecting, doing a file, every article I could get about the the schmirl haunting, there was not one single article that was pro that was positive.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I mean, in my collection.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_04: Every and there were three newspapers in the Woksbara area.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: We had three newspapers that were watching this.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_04: They did not support this, they just ripped the the schmirls apart, and uh that was that was unfair.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll get into the warrants because you've got to talk to them.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's a big thing right now.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's coming out, say they're hoaxes, it's proved that they were fake.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I get to meet a lot of people through these paracons that knew the warrants, they say totally opposite, like you.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say they're fake because I don't know.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, from everybody I talked to that actually knew them, they're not.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, well, that's that's been my experience as well.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's so much, you know, hate or BS people calling BS on the Warrens, and they're saying that from afar.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: But every single person I have ever spoken to who knew them, these guys were the real deal.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they all say.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they were nice people, you know.
• 51:52
  unknown: You know, yeah.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: But but um, but the criticisms would include that they were making money and they were making good money, they were making like five thousand dollars per appearance at these college campuses, and they made like maybe was it 700, maybe a thousand, close to a thousand.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_04: So they were making money.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_04: They were the pioneers and ambassadors, they were there at the beginning, and because they were making money, because they were successful, because they were high profile, because they used Christianity and Catholicism and all that, those were the weapons that people used to attack them, that claiming that the Warrens were using Christianity as a shield, as using Christianity as their means to make money.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_04: So there were just so many aspects of this, but a lot of you know, a lot of people don't like them.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I think a uh a lot of people don't like them, you know.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, but I think when when we have this conversation about somebody, I think that I think one of us needs to step forward and and protect them and defend them, defend their honor.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what I have been doing because I I like them, they were my friends.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_04: I stayed in touch with them, you know, until they died.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, that's uh people are speaking up, but no one's listening.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's the issue.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a jealousy thing, personally.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I think so.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think so too.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, well, you know, Ryan, when you were talking about, you know, you go to all these haunted places, you know, just for your you know, your checklist or whatever to tell people that you know it reminded me of these people that go camping, you know, the people with the RVs that have all the little things at the states on the thing.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's like the same kind of concept, you know.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, you know, that's kind of kind of cool.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I got to meet uh Father Bob Um who worked with the Warrens, he'll be on the show later this month.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_04: Father Bob's gonna be on your program?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct, yeah.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, yeah.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'll tell you this when I was at uh the Gettysburg uh orphanage to see Annabelle and uh Dan Rivera, Father Bob was supposed to be there, he was supposed to be there too, and he wasn't.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I believe he was in South America, that's what they told me.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: So that's correct?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, well, he was he there to see Chris McMackna.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why he was there, but yeah, I mean I know he was supposed to be at the orphanage, yeah, and he wasn't.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: I know he was out of the country at that time.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know he had to go somewhere, so yeah, okay, yeah.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, called somewhere else, but yeah, great guy.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: I talked to him a few times.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's gonna be on the show.