Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 39: Let's Talk... And Probably Offend Someone

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Ep. 39: Let's Talk... And Probably Offend Someone · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the We Are More podcast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: We're 2 sisters passionate about
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Hello.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Hello. I'm ill this time. Hooray. It's not me. So if I sound a bit more like Brian than Brianna, that's why.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Bree has been, on her deathbed for at least 3 days now.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I have been on my bed, and I have felt like death. I feel like that's
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is like this for you guys, but after the holidays because our whole family's together, and much as I love them, there are 20 great grandchildren. Yeah. Now not all of them are always there, but just think of the amount of germs.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. With all those little petri dishes running around, snot flying.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I say this with love because my son has had snot flying for at least a week and a half, But there's just no way there's no way you're not getting sick after that.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: No. I thought it was in the clear. No. But I was wrong.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Conveniently, you got it just as work started back up. I know. Wonderful.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: The best time, really. The best time. I love that for me.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: We are headed back into, like, real life now, I feel like. Boo. Yeah. Brie had to work one day last week.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: One
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: day. I had to work
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: a couple days last week, but my daughter goes back to school this coming week.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: And it just dance starts up again and, you know, just all the extra little stuff that goes on hold for, like, a week and a half, 2 weeks.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: And you forget that it exists. You do. Like, I'm genuinely afraid that I forgot how to do my job. Every time I come back after vacation, I'm like, what's my job?
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: What do I do?
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Who am I? Where are we?
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not looking forward to just the busyness of real life again.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. I'm tired, a little bit annoyed. I'm just like, You know? Just that whole feeling just like, I'm hot and I'm cold, and I'm aggravated and I'm hungry, but I'm full. The Christmas season.
• 2:38
  Yes. I just feel like, you know, that little that medicine commercial? What is it called? Mucinex? Yeah.
• 2:47
  With the little mucus man? Yeah. I feel like the mucus man.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: That is honestly, half the time, I have to turn that commercial off. It's so gross. Yeah.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, I
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: just am a little ball of phlegm. I'm so sorry to all of you
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: out there that now are picturing this in your head.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: We could name this podcast, I'm the mucus man Oh, good. Or I'm just a little ball of phlegm. Have you ever felt like a ball of phlegm?
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Sorry, Katy Perry. I really changed the meaning of your song there.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, the actual words are, have you ever felt like a plastic bag? So Yeah. I don't know how to justify that one.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I remember hearing that the first time because that came out a long time ago. Mhmm. I remember hearing that the first time and just being like, is she okay?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: What do you mean to ever feel like a plastic bag?
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I have all the time.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: She's really just hit the nail on the head there.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: So, anyway
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: sorry, Katy Perry. Sorry, Katy Perry. You deserved that, though.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Did she, though? Did she? So today, we are gonna be talking about a book that Bree has been reading. Bree has been working through I we have been trying to figure out where it came from.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm pretty sure that I picked this book up at, like, the library book sale, because I thought, oh, this would make an interesting podcast. And it's called, let's talk, good stuff for girlfriends. Good stuff for girlfriends? Yep.
• 4:23
  About God, guys, and growing up by Danae Dobson.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: And if that didn't make you puke, here we go. This came out, what did we
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: say, like, 20, 21 years ago?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Right around 20 years ago.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So this would have been a book that was geared towards you and I. Yeah. Because it's geared towards, like, tweens, teens.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If you're not familiar with the Dobson family, they are very prominent in, like, the super ultra conservative Christian world.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: And I had heard the name, but I don't really know much about them.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So this woman who wrote the book, her dad I'm not I think he's the head of Focus on the Family, which is, again, a very conservative, very problematic Christian organization.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: She says that he wrote the book Daring to Discipline. That's about spanking your kids. We will get to that one.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Very it's a it's just very problematic. They have come out with a lot of things recently, actually, Focus on the Family has Mhmm. About abusive marriages and staying in abusive marriages because god will heal them and all will be well, and then you'll have this great story to tell the world and whatever. And just I have a lot of issues with them. Mhmm.
• 5:44
  But they are it's a big name in the Christian world, for sure. So coming from her back in the early 2000, this would have definitely been something that probably would've I don't know if this exact book was on our shelves, but I'm sure something like this would've been on our shelves at home.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like a devotional. Mhmm. So there you know, everything is split up into, like, a couple of pages, and there's some, like, main chunks. There's 6 sections.
• 6:14
  So the first section is, let's talk about God, baby. Wow. The next one is, let's talk about family. Let's talk about friends. Let's talk about guys.
• 6:26
  Let's talk about you, and then let's talk about eternity. I just thought, just, like, right off the bat, the first thing that stood out to me, and maybe it's just because my eyes are trained to do that now, but I was like, why is let's talk about guys and family and friends above you? I feel like, let's talk about you.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: The impression that I always had from church, and I know that this was said directly in church, was joy equals Jesus, others, and then you. So you are the last person on your own priority list. That was taught to me at church. So while, yes, that's horrifying, it makes total sense within this context because you're supposed to think about Jesus first and then everyone else on the face of the earth. And then if you have any time left over, then I guess you could ponder your own own existence.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: But I also think it's interesting that this is geared towards young girls, and they're like, clearly, put a boy above yourself. I mean Yeah. All at all costs, sacrifice yourself for a boy.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And you're not even talking about, necessarily, the man you're going to marry someday, which you still shouldn't be sacrificing yourself for. But you're not even talking about that. You're talking about, like, high school crushes. Mhmm. And heaven knows, high school boys are a disaster.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: My gosh. They don't even know how to properly shower.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I know. Do you ever, like, think back on your time in high school and you're you're like, how did I have a crush on any of these boys?
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: I know. I know. They were the key.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Ugh. Like, I'm sorry, boys, but some someone needs to teach you at that age to shower and brush your dang teeth.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: What's going on?
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I think we've been doing kind of, like, a deep dive lately into our younger selves. Yeah. What we were like in high school and even younger than that. And, my gosh, do I have some regrets. I'm like, I wore that, I said that, I did what?
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh my gosh. The deeper you dig into the person that you were, it gets a little frightening, especially when you've done a lot of growth.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even reading this book, I was like, okay, this definitely would have been a book that would have been handed to me Oh, for sure. Back in the day. I maybe would have read a few pages. Like, I was not a reader, But, clearly, I am now because I'm halfway through the book.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: So I think what we're gonna do is we'll do a a little series on this one and do a section or 2 per episode and kinda talk through it. And then what we'd really like to do is a devotional geared towards young boys from the same era. Mhmm.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: So if
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: you have any suggestions, definitely let us know. Yeah. Because I'm not I mean, we were not given those devotionals as children, so I'm not super familiar with any.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe some chicken soup for the soul. Chicken soup. I never read them. I don't even know what they were about, but I know that they were iconic.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: They were short stories. They were, like, short inspirational stories. So it'd be like, if you told a story of how they weren't all Christian either. They were all just totally different. But it would be like, oh, I was having a really rough health scare, and then my friend came and made me chicken soup, and then I was all well again.
• 9:44
  Like, that's the concept of it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: It was not a it was not can't you picture that in your mind, though? Like, a chicken soup for the soul book, maybe an our daily bread. Oh, man. Oh. And some some bad low rise jeans.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: Because we
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: were wearing leggings back then.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: We were not. I'm
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: very sure about
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: it. Anyways, walk us
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: through this book. I'm gonna walk you through how I walked through the book, which was reading the dedication first. And in the dedication, the first thing that's mentioned is Titus 2:4 through 5. So she mentions that in this verse, it says that the older women should teach the younger women, and that's really all she says about it. But if you actually get into your Bible and read it, the verse is, these older women must train the younger women to love their husbands and their children, to live wisely and be pure, to work in their homes to do good and to be submissive to their husbands, then they will not bring shame to the word of God.
• 10:49
  That is the first thing that she wants
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: to
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: open up to these young girls who are planning on reading this book is, you're less. Right. And we've talked about
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: the submission verses in previous Mhmm. Episodes, so we won't necessarily go into that and why it doesn't mean what's on the surface. Right. But you're right. Like, the first thing you're gonna tell girls, make sure you submit to your husbands.
• 11:13
  And Right.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: This isn't even you're not talking to married women.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: No. You're talking to teenage girls.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Right. Exactly. And saying that this is your ideal. Right. Your ideal your highest calling, again, is to be a wife and mother, and that's all you will ever be.
• 11:29
  Mhmm. And here's how to get there.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I did notice, this is a little aside too, but when I was going over a couple things, I noticed that she does not quote the verses. No. She throws a lot of references in there, and Brie, as she was reading, would, like, write some of the verses on the side. But the author never does. She just kinda throws references out there to kinda make it look more biblical that she's these things that she's pulling out of her butt.
• 11:52
  But then you look up those verses, and they really don't don't make sense in context, don't function properly for what she's trying
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to say. I also found that so each section, each little chapter, or each devotional, however you wanna say it, will start with, like, a verse, and then it kinda goes into a little story or something. Yeah. The verse doesn't always really apply to what the little blurb is.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: But it's a really stupid blurb. I'm sorry. But here's, like, here's a verse, and here's a story about my friend Brian that sounds fake. And it I'm sure it is. Like, there's no not a lot of detail.
• 12:32
  It's just like, he was mad at his mom one day, and then he said, I'll forgive her. The end. Great story, great story. And that's why we should forget.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And then I found $5.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Anyways, moving along through this book. We're gonna get into the introduction. I'm not gonna read it, obviously, but one of the things I highlighted from the introduction was this quote. It says, I always wanted a friend or big sister who could clue me in on all the important things, including the best ways to get guys' attention. Mhmm.
• 13:05
  Maybe she's just like, well, obviously, these girls just wanna talk about boys all the time because that's the only thing that's filling these girls' heads.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: And that's how I'm gonna get their attention. Right. But maybe we should think something else. Maybe we should, you know, give them a little bit more.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I think and we've talked about this before about how kids and teenagers, they will be the people that you expect them to be, kind of. You know? So and I'm not not extremely so, but we've said this with young guys. If you expect that they're going to be controlling and be assertive and whatever. Like, you put all of these expectations on them, they're going to live up to it.
• 13:51
  Mhmm. And I think girls of this era were expected to be constantly boy crazy.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: I I know that that was the expectation of us.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Be boy crazy, but watch what you wear, watch what you say.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Be pure.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: You can't be alone with a boy. You can't do anything that a boy would think about. You can't think those same thoughts, but you have to be boy crazy.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And I think that's not as I think back on my own childhood and every every person is different, so this is not applicable to everyone. Mhmm. But my whole life was not wrapped up in boys.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I I was just gonna say that, because when we were younger, we had this tradition that we would, in our grandparents' basement, on, like, the support beams, there was this little hidden compartment, which was really weird.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Up by the ceiling.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Up by the ceiling, you could pull apart this piece of wood, and it was just like a little hidden thing. Mhmm. And for some reason, we would all hide notes of, like, who our crushes were. Yep. We would fold them up, and we would hide them in this little hidden compartment.
• 14:53
  And I always felt so much pressure, because I was like, oh, but I don't like a boy right now. Which one? So I would feel this pressure to pick a boy, any boy,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: and put it in the
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: secret compartment, which I think that's probably true of a lot of girls. You're told, like, you have to be boy crazy, otherwise you're not feminine enough. Right. You're not womanly enough. Right.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Well, and we started so young. I mean, my daughter is is very young, and people ask her all the time, do you have a crush on any boys? Do you have a crush on any boys? And it's almost that becomes an expectation of you, like you said, that you're going to have a crush on somebody. The answer has to be yes.
• 15:35
  Yeah. If it's no, you're either lying or you're weird. Right? Mhmm. And I wish we were asking girls other things.
• 15:45
  Not even just, like, oh, what do you wanna be when you grow up? But
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: what interesting things have you been doing lately? What
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: are your hobbies? Mhmm. What are you learning about? What do you love to learn about?
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: You know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: things like that. Things that we do ask boys. Yeah. How often are you asking young, elementary aged boys, do you have a crush on any girls? Like, that's not really something that you're asking.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And you would I don't think you would see a book like this for young boys talking about their future wives.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: It definitely wouldn't have, like, the first verse be like, submit to each other.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: No. We forget that verse
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: exists. That one's not in it's not in the KJV. Melissa and I have decided that instead of because we say conservative Christians a lot. That's a mouthful.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: It is a mouthful.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: We're just gonna call them KJVs. And if that doesn't make sense to you I'm sorry. If it doesn't make sense
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: to you, there is a sect of conservative Christians, like, a small group of them that believe that the King James version of the Bible, which was commissioned by King James back in, I don't know, long time ago England, a long time ago, is the only version of the Bible that you should read, that it is the only version that, like, God himself ordained or whatever. I don't know. It's very strange.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a lot of these and thou's and ye's. Well, because it's old,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: and it was also written with a political motive behind it.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: And it's not a version that I prefer. It's actually not a version that's necessarily based on the best sources either. So, yeah, so that's why. And we think that's insane. So
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: So we're just gonna call conservative Christians KJBs. That's very KJB of you. Anyways, as we move through this book, the first section that she has is called WWJD. Oh, don't worry. I just love that.
• 17:50
  If you don't know what that means, it's an acronym for What Would Jesus Do. Mhmm.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: And if you never saw it as a child, it was on every bracelet. Like, I it was on car stickers. I saw all this one. W w j d.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Yes. You would always have to have it on a fun little, like, rope tied bracelet. And as a side note okay. So side note again. We're getting way off track, but this is important information.
• 18:16
  This Christmas, I gave all of my girl cousins and aunts and whoever I felt needed it a bracelet that I handcrafted that says WWBS. What would Brianna say? I thought that was totally normal and fine.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I have mine on right now.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: So if you want 1, message us, and I'll send one to you. So So the first section is WWJD, what would Jesus do? And I just find it interesting because as she moves through the section, she quotes well, she she says Philippians 2 1 through 5. Essentially, it talks about, like, Jesus being compassionate, loving, working together. That's what you should be.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: But when she moves through this section, I don't feel lovingness from her. You know? And that's kind of the theme through the whole book is not a lot of love, a lot of judgment Mhmm. Which I just think is odd.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the stereotype of Christianity is that we do everything we do to either convert you or to judge you for your lack of Christianity. Mhmm.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: I think in this section, she goes on to talk about a friend that she had that was invited to a Korn concert. Oh, the horror. Korn with a k.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever heard any music from Korn, to be honest with you.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I just know them from the episode of Monk. Gilmore Girls.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: They talk about them on Gilmore Girls also.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: There you go. So she goes on to talk about how, like, would Jesus be there? Is that somewhere Jesus would be surrounded by unbelievers? Yes. I'm gonna say it one more time.
• 19:57
  Yes. Jesus would absolutely be there.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: You have to so willfully misunderstand the Bible. Like, to the point I question whether you've cracked it open. Mhmm. Now I'm not saying that you should put yourself in harmful situations, that if you don't feel comfortable somewhere, that you should go there, But to say Jesus wouldn't be in a space with sinners, that Jesus wouldn't be in a space with people that didn't believe in him, that's exactly where Jesus hung out.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And she justifies this by saying first Thessalonians 5 22, and she uses the KJV. And the KJV says, abstain from all appearance of evil. Mhmm. The NLT says, stay away from every kind of evil. Mhmm.
• 20:44
  So her justification is that any appearance of evil, which is a lot of, like we've talked about this before in podcasts, don't get close to a sin. Mhmm. Not that going to the Korn concert is a sin, but you don't want it to appear that you're surrounding yourself with, you know, all this bad language and these bad people.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Well, it's like when our mom was younger, they didn't go Christians, in theory, didn't go to movies at the movie theater. Mhmm. Not because they didn't watch any movies at all, but because other people wouldn't know if they were going to watch the appropriate movie or the inappropriate movie, and so the appearance could be that they were doing something wrong, so they just didn't go to any
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: of them.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: So throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And And she just goes on to kinda talk about, like, you shouldn't surround yourself with unbelievers, which I find so absolutely crazy. Because how do you think those people are gonna find Jesus?
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: You're they're supposed to be able to see Jesus through you, and if at every turn you're saying, you're not worthy to be around me. Right. Why are why would they want to follow Jesus when they think that Jesus is, 1, a hypocrite, and 2, very isolating?
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of that holier than thou attitude. And I don't necessarily think the Baptist believe in predestination.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not exactly
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: sure, actually. But it's kind of this concept of, like, Jesus chose my family, or god chose my family to be Christians, and therefore, my Christian family can only associate with other Christian families.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: And I've seen too many Christians insulate themselves.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I only hang out with the people I go to church with. I only do social events at my church. I only speak to these people. I only you know, whatever. Like, you only live in this tiny, tiny little bubble.
• 22:48
  And then the moment that they do say they do venture out and try to talk to an unbeliever Mhmm.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: They don't know how. Right. Because they can't relate
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Right. At
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: all. The only thing that gets said is, like, you want you wanna come
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: to church with me? Mhmm.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: You know? And my gosh, that's not how to do it.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: And we've talked about before, like, before you actually witness to someone, there are steps that you should take.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: And one of them is getting into the world, getting to know them on a personal level, letting them know that you care about them as a human being, share a meal with them, and then maybe after all of that, maybe then you can start talking about Jesus and inviting them to church and witnessing because you've shown that you care about them beyond just like, oh, this is my job. I don't want you to go to hell, I guess. Mhmm.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I actually did some research on a church recently for work, and one of the things one of the criticisms in, like, their Google reviews, they called them an MLM. Because, essentially, you go to this church, and this was a big, well known megachurch. You go to this church, and all of a sudden, your whole job as someone who goes to this church is to find more people to go to this church Mhmm.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So that they
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: can give more money to the church. And then those people have to find more people to come to the church. It's just butts in seats. It's not we care about you. As people, we wanna know that you're you're growing, that you're okay, that you don't, like, do you need anything?
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And people outside of, I would say, Christianity see that hypocrisy from us. Being labeled as, like, a Christian person
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: They see mega church pastors going in jets. Mhmm. Or living in different states than their church and flying back and forth. Right. Or, you know, these big things that you think, okay, they're saying that I have to tithe.
• 24:42
  Mhmm.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: If you
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: don't know what tithing is, it's giving 10% of your income back to the church, and there's some verses about it in the Bible saying you, like, trust God with your money. But it's frustrating when you think that's a stretch for some people to trust God with their money, 10% of their income, that's a lot, and to see it going towards a plane ride back and forth or a fancy hotel room or a magazine subscription for the pastor or whatever it is. It's really frustrating.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. I mean, I've worked I've said this before, but I've worked at a church in the past, and I was privy to a lot of that information. And to watch how the money got spent was so disheartening.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: And to think someone's entire year worth of what they're giving to the church just got spent on the nicer like, the upgrade of the hotel room because
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: we can't just stay in a
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: normal hotel room. Don't be silly. Or a fancy coach for the pastor, you know, things like that. And it it does. It hurts a little bit.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: It feels yucky.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so the people outside that are looking at that, that are seeing that
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't want anything to do that either.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying as a person you don't want nice things. But if you're taking people's tithing money
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: To do these things, would Jesus do that?
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: No. He would give everything back.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: And that's what frustrates me about this first section, this very first devotional, is saying, like, this is the first one. This is the most important thing.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: The one that most people
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: are gonna actually read. Yeah.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: And she says, don't surround yourself with unbelievers. Mhmm. And that is not what Jesus would do. No. It's really frustrating.
• 26:20
  Anyways, she goes on to talk about you shouldn't watch movies, essentially. Not all movies, but she went and saw a movie with some of her friends, and it had some bad language in it. And when they got there, they turned around, and there were some boys behind them that they knew from school. And they were football players, no less. Oh, so cool.
• 26:42
  And when they turned around halfway through the movie, those boys were gone because they thought that movie was just too bad for them to see. And she's like, we should have been like that.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: I think when it comes to that kind of stuff, I'm not it's it's a really hard line because I think, as a person, like, you you know your boundaries. Right? Like, if you're praying through things, you should know where your boundaries lie. However, when you say something like, well, the it had a couple of bad words in it and whatever. And in that, I don't think she's just talking to teenagers.
• 27:21
  I think she's talking to adults. She like, excuse me. If you're sitting through this movie, I'm judging you.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: And clearly, she's she's judging herself and her friends in this scenario.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Are you really that delicate?
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Right. Like, maybe that sounds bad.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't wanna say that, like, oh, you should surround yourself with all of the bad things in the world or whatever. But as Christians, like, look at the Bible. Look at what the apostles, what the people of God went through. Mhmm. Do we really think that they would've gasped and clutched their pearls when they heard a cuss word?
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Especially because our words are not the same as bible time words. Right. Right. They're just crap that we made up.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Whole different context. I mean, for goodness sakes, JL is over there stabbing tent stakes through people's heads.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think she would have been that offended No. As people are cussing in front of her.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: But also, I think a big theme these next couple of devotionals, she talks about, like, using bad language and seeing movies or listening to music that is what she feels is inappropriate, and you should protect But who are you to judge someone else on what they feel is appropriate for themselves? If you have a hard time watching those movies that you feel are maybe too violent or swear too much and it hurts you, fine. Don't watch them.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: But don't sit there and constantly judge. That's the lord's job Mhmm.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Not yours.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Well, it's like you
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: said, like putting a bubble around sin, and I'm gonna take my bubble that I've put around things to keep myself safe on you and on everyone that I've ever met. And if you don't conform to the bubble that I've created for myself, then clearly, you're sinning. Clearly, you're in the wrong. Mhmm. I don't know.
• 29:11
  I think we're just looking for excuses, and and this is broader society too. This isn't just Christianity, but I'm specifically talking about Christianity. We love to judge.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, baby, do we love to judge. We love to gossip, and we love to judge.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: And when we take things like this, this chapter, and we say, don't listen to bad music. Don't listen to this. Don't look at this. Don't do this. Don't associate with people who do any of these things.
• 29:40
  It gives us a really great excuse to take the Bible and say the Bible is telling me to judge. Yeah. And it's not Like, I am sorry. Jesus never said, hey. Here I am.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Here I am. Wow. I'm dead.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Here I am to make everybody feel bad about themselves.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I had another song queued up for you.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Would you like to sing it?
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Did I cut you off? Here I am to worship.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, man. That's a throwback.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: And none of those words say judge, do they? Yeah. They don't.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: So the second section, I believe, is let's talk about God and family. Mhmm. This section made me wildly uncomfortable. Just wildly uncomfortable. It's called daddy's girl.
• 30:36
  I hate that.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I think that's such a bizarre I don't I don't know if it was co opted by, like, the fact that daddy is now kind of, like, inappropriate. Yeah. But ew. I don't
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: like it. I don't like it either. I don't like it. Right off the bat, I noticed that there's not a mommy's girl section. It's only daddy's girl section.
• 31:03
  And she talks about Deuteronomy 516, which says, honor your father and mother as the Lord God has commanded you. Then you will live a long and full life in the land the Lord your God is giving you. And that's the NLT, sis.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Also, I think it's interesting because this verse gets quoted a lot, and this is kind of a side note, but that it's in the Old Testament. And so much of the Old Testament, we're like, well, we don't need to we don't need to worry about that because it's the old covenant, and then Jesus came back and now
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: That's why we can eat bacon Right. And cut our hair.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And and have tattoos. But then Jesus came and things changed, but this one, we hold on to.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Honor your mother, mother, at all costs. Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: respect your parents if they are respectable people.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: But man, do we hold on to that one when we throw out so much else.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Which is what she goes on to say. Okay. She goes on to say oh, this is the part where she talks about spanking. She said, of course not all my childhood memories are pleasant. There were conflicts and spankings.
• 32:05
  Note, my dad was not one to spare the rod. Sounds great. In fact, he wrote the best selling book, Dare to Discipline. Yuck. We could have a whole conversation about that.
• 32:15
  I could have a whole conversation
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: about that. I have questions. We were sitting, talking about this with my mom earlier. Utterly bizarre that Christianity is the place where we're holding on to spanking our children. I just the studies don't support it.
• 32:36
  Science is saying, let's try something else. But Christianity, for some reason now there is there I I think it's a verse that says, spare the rod, spoil a child. So it's Proverbs 13/24. And in the NLT, it says, those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children. Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.
• 32:56
  That's the NLT. K?
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Now we're gonna look at
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: the KJV because oh, baby. Have we said oh, baby several times? I think we are.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, baby. Baby. Oh, baby. Baby. Oh, baby, baby.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: So then, the KJV says, he that spareth his rod hateth his son, but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. What?
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Let's look up the E as we
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: that was a wild ride.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I hope you all enjoyed that. That's what confuses me about the KJVers. Do you not want to understand the bible?
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: I love when people say eth.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Discipline eth. Discipline eth. Thyeth. Children eth. Hussar.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: So, anyway, the ESV says, whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't discipline our children. I think kids need boundaries. They're it's very clear, based on many a scientific study, that children need boundaries. But why is it that we take things literally only when they're convenient for us?
• 34:06
  Mhmm. Why did we take the rod? And instead of making it time out or I will take away one of your toys or for heaven's sake, you can't visit that friend today. Mhmm. Why did we suddenly say, no spanking.
• 34:23
  That's what we're going for. And I just find it so strange, so, so counterintuitive that Christianity is the last holdout. Maybe it's not the last holdout, but it seems like one of the few holdouts
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: For spanking. And the fact that she talks about that, and she's like, yeah. I was I was disciplined, and it was great. But, also, I'm clearly real messed up. Yeah.
• 34:46
  Like, I just don't know that I'm buying it.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: I think you should people out there, you should watch that what was the Duggar documentary? Shiny Happy People. Shiny Happy People. Shiny Happy People. Go ahead and watch that documentary if you're confused why we're thinking this is like a Christian holdout.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: It is. Those KJVers.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: That one, they're even a little bit beyond
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: That's next level. They start their kids out, like, as a newborn. They lay them out on a blanket, and anytime they try to stray from the blanket, their parents will, like, hit them
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Because they want them to stay in that blanket and obey them. Yeah. And they started so young.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I think I think she said it was, like, 18 months or so, maybe even younger that she was doing it with her daughter.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: And they try to even coax the kids. Like, they'll put a toy off the blanket. Like, go
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: get it. I dare you.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Smack. Yeah. I oh.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I have many thoughts on that.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: We could do a whole episode of it. We really could. But what I don't like about this daddy's girl section Stop. Is she goes on to say, essentially, honor your father and mother at all costs, and then she's like, and I know some of you out there are being like, but my father is abusive. He's an alcoholic.
• 36:00
  He's never even said he loves me. And she goes on to say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he has abused you, if he's not a Christian. None of it matters because the Bible said respect and honor your father and mother, so you do that. Which I feel like is so misguided, especially telling these young girls, it doesn't matter if he's a Christian or not.
• 36:25
  He's a man and you follow him.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if he's abused you or not. You follow him, and it just creates this cycle of abuse forever for these girls. Something really good that I think has come out of today's culture, pop culture, is setting boundaries. Yeah. For yourself.
• 36:46
  If they are not healthy for you and your life or good for you. I don't know how else to say that. It's okay to set a boundary and say, you don't get to see me. You don't get to talk to me. You don't get to call me because it's not healthy for me anymore.
• 37:03
  And just because they're your parents doesn't mean that you owe them anything else. No. You didn't ask to be born. Gosh dang it.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: I just that concept that as women and I again, I don't think you'd see this, and we'll have to kinda compare and contrast.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: Mhmm. But I
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: don't think you'd see these same words in a devotional to boys. If your mom is abusive to you Mhmm. Just take it and also still honor her. I don't think you'd see that because boys in this culture are being raised to be assertive, to be aggressive, to be the leader. And so they don't they shouldn't have to take the abuse.
• 37:45
  Right? Mhmm. But girls are being conditioned.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Well, the like, all of these chapters are like, forgive, be a peacemaker, don't use bad language, gutter language, always respect, respect others.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: And there's no reason to tell young teen girls, submit. Submit. Submit. Submit. Submit.
• 38:09
  Do nothing but submit. You're gonna have to obey your husband someday. Submit. Submit. Submit.
• 38:13
  There's no reason to do that to girls who are nowhere near marriage unless you're indoctrinating them. Yep. Unless you're giving them no other option because they don't need that information today. Right? They're not getting married anytime soon.
• 38:31
  You're not really preparing them for anything. So why tell them, accept that you need them in this culture, in this context, to never question that.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: To not even get it in their heads for a minute that they're more than this, that they deserve better than abuse, that their fathers shouldn't be able to treat them however they feel like just because they're men.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: And if you can beat a girl down, if you can beat anyone down from the moment that they
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: pop out of the womb Mhmm.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: You're more likely to get someone who's compliant to that.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Right. They're never gonna assume that they are more.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Right. And I see deserve more. I see this book as this just horrifying ball of indoctrination. And we're not
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: well, guys, we're not we're not even halfway through. So no. The next chapter I wanna talk about is it's called 70 times 7, and she's talking about Matthew 1822 where it says, no. Not 7 times, Jesus replied, but 70 times 7. And that's about forgiveness.
• 39:39
  Forgiveness. Oh, forgiveness. And this is where she goes on to talk about her best friend, Brian. Not me. But her best friend, Brian, maybe he's not her best friend.
• 39:50
  I assume this is a whole lie of a story.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I But yeah.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Had had parents who got separated when he was a teenager. The mom was cheating on the dad and left them, and the mom was kind of neglectful when she said, like, oh, I'll come pick you and your brother up. But this time, she would forget to come pick him up. And Brian forgave his mother. Brian forgave his mother for all that she did growing up when he was older and how important that was for him and his, like, his soul was that forgiveness, not necessarily for her, but for him.
• 40:27
  And then she goes on to talk about, what's that story in the Bible where it was a parable, I think, and there was a master and he had 2 people and the one person owed him, like, a certain amount of money. Yeah. And the master was like, oh, I forgive you because you asked. Mhmm. But then that same guy went and turned around and tried to demand some money from another person.
• 40:49
  He didn't forgive the other guy his debts, even though he was forgiven. Anyways, she goes on to say, out of nowhere, might I add, some of you have been severely wounded in your lifetime. Maybe you have been physically abused or even raped. In some cases, it happened at the hands of a family member whom you trusted. The pain is great, and you don't think you'll ever be able to heal.
• 41:15
  And you certainly can't forgive him for what he has done. But then she goes on to say, my advice, release it. Let it go. Give your burden to God, and let let it set you free from the bondage of a bitter heart. I like the pastor's description.
• 41:33
  He suggests that he put his offenders in Jesus jail and let him deal with it.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Just like Elsa. Just let it go. Let it go. Why would you need why would you need counseling?
• 41:44
  Why would you need anything? Just you're fine.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Just
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Jesus jail it.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I just hate that, out of nowhere Mhmm. And it's almost an expectation in this conservative Christian world that girls are going to get abused. And rather than report it or say it's wrong, just forgive. Mhmm. It's gonna happen, but just forgive.
• 42:11
  Put them in Jesus jail
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: And then you'll be set free. And I hate that because we have seen so many women who did grow up in the conservative Christian world, and that did happen to them. Mhmm. Why? Because we're not telling the boys, don't do it.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Mhmm. It's so frustrating.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Not even just telling them, but having any sort of consequences when it does happen. Exactly. And and what it should say is if this has happened to you, report it to the authorities. Mhmm. Report it, not just, and I wanna point out because this happens a lot too.
• 42:47
  In churches, it's like, report it to the church authorities and let the church authorities deal with it. No. Call the police. Yep. Report it to the police.
• 42:55
  And then afterwards, if this person is someone in your church, also tell your church. Right. Because they shouldn't be allowed within 50 feet. Mhmm. But it doesn't say that.
• 43:07
  It doesn't say go to the authorities. It doesn't say seek help. It doesn't say, my gosh, are you okay?
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: It says, let
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: it go.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Yep. And then she quotes doctor Archibald Hart, who I don't know who that is. But she's like, what is forgiveness? Well, doctor Archibald Hart says, forgiveness is giving up on my right to hurt you for hurting me. Okay.
• 43:33
  Think about that for a while. That's very confusing.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, when you are hurt, oftentimes, yes, you wanna hurt the person back. But it depends on what you define as hurt. Mhmm. Because if your definition of hurt is attack that person okay. Yeah.
• 43:51
  Probably don't do that. But if your definition of hurt is calling the authorities, having proper legal action taken, you have a right to that.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I feel like that is such a missed opportunity in this devotional, is to talk about right at the beginning, hey, let's respect ourselves.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Because that's what Jesus would do. He would respect everybody and you should respect yourself. You shouldn't expect abuse from people that you love or that are in your church. Mhmm. And here's how to do it.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: That to me reads like like she has likely been abused in that way.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: And this is how she dealt with it. Now I I can't say that, but that to me, it sounds like someone perpetuating hurt on other people.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And it's such a throwaway, like, out of nowhere. Hey. By the way, maybe you've been assaulted.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: And it specific it explicitly says that. Yeah. You're not we're not even trying to pretend that we're just talking about, like, well, you got spankings as a child. Mhmm. You know?
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: And this is, again, geared towards, like, younger girls. Right. So I imagine that some moms got some questions Mhmm.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: While they were reading this.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Well, you hear about
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: it. And you may not hear about the most extreme cases constantly, but my gosh. Again, working in the background of a church Mhmm. Inappropriate words, inappropriate touching, inappropriate pinning you into a room
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Happened constantly. It was happening all the time. It was happening everywhere, and it didn't matter who you said it to. And that's why I really wanna land on this point of don't just go to your church. Mhmm.
• 45:40
  Because way too often, unfortunately, because this this book, this type of culture is still so prevalent in so many church spaces, too often, they're going to cover up. Yeah.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Because they don't wanna hurt his future.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: They don't want the scandal. Mhmm. They don't want this to wind up in the news. And, yeah, they'll tell you as the woman or young girl, well, you don't want to hurt his faith. Right?
• 46:12
  If you if you go to the police with this, then he may never come back to god, and that's on you. Or his marriage may fall apart. Mhmm. And that's on you. I have fallen victim to those claims myself.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: And that is not how it should be.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Because women are always less. Yeah. Constantly. Yep. Because your worth and value is not even close to a man's, any man.
• 46:44
  Mhmm. Even if he's abusive, even if he's sinful and doing terrible things, it doesn't matter.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Because you're less than him.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Well, no one asks the question, when this man is abusive again, because heaven knows it's never just one woman. Right?
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: When he's abusive again, is that hurting her faith? Is she gonna leave the church?
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Is she gonna walk away from god and never turn back?
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: No one's asking that question.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Why so many women are leaving the church now. It's it so often feels like an unsafe space,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: and I can say that having been in many
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: church space.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: It feels like you're on the defensive from the moment you walk in the door. And I I hope that that's not true for all of you. I hope that you guys have found a space where you do feel safe, but I would guess that many of you feel like we do.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: Mhmm.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: That you are always having to protect yourself, to watch out for any man that may walk around the corner, for heaven's sake.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: For a camera in your church bathroom. Right. Perhaps. Right.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: And I just books like this, they just perpetuate it. And I know this is an older book, but I would guess
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: that this is not out of circulation in those spaces.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: No. Another one I would really like to go through, and it might be a while before we do, but if you guys are interested in this, let us know, Is the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye? We haven't really talked about purity culture a ton.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to talk about that.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We will definitely get into that a little bit in this book, I think, and definitely in that book and some subsequent episodes. A great resource for some of that information is Sheila Rae Gregoire, who is on Facebook. You can find her. I think she's on Instagram.
• 48:40
  I'm not sure if she's on TikTok, but she's a great resource for talking about how damaging purity culture has been.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: Mhmm. But
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: I think between purity culture and then excusing all of the abuse that women go through in the church, man, we're set up for failure. Yep. I can't blame women for leaving the church.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: No. Well, that's the end of section 2. I'm excited to continue reading it. I haven't read through mom, but everybody's wearing it. Or perhaps intolerance.
• 49:17
  Intolerance. Wow.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: She's all that. Can we just can we circle back to the fact that a whole chapter is titled intolerance? I just I'm Alarm. Yeah. I think we're gonna PJ party parameters.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: Wow. I'm
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: so excited. Oh, guys, I'm so excited to continue reading this. We'll talk about the next couple sections in the next episode. Yeah. Are you as excited?
• 49:48
  I'll post a picture of this on our Instagram so you guys can all follow along. Maybe post
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: a picture of it with one of those big
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: exes over at my fingertips. Don't be denied. Our recommended book list. Oh, that's fun. We could have a not recommended book list.
• 50:07
  A burn these books list? Yeah. Very
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: 451. Alright. So we will get into that next week. And, yeah, if you guys have any suggestions on devotionals or, like, Christian informative. I don't really know what genre I would call this, but this type of book but for, young guys, we would really appreciate any suggestions on that.
• 50:31
  You can contact on us on our social medias. We are on TikTok and Instagram, and I'm really failing hard at Facebook. But if you want us on Facebook, let
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: me know that too. Alright. Well, we would talk
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: to you guys next week.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Sorry that I'm ill.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: It just sounded like you said sorry that I'm mill.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: My name is Millard. Sorry that I'm Millard. Goodbye. Okay. Goodbye.
• 50:56
  I love you. Bye.