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Beek on being and TRAUMA · Beek on being

• 0:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: Hi, I hope you are well. This podcast is a place for people to share personal and professional perspectives, talk openly and ask questions. From serious to silly to sublime, it's all about communication and connection. Always coming from a place of kindness and curiosity, we talk about shared humanity, discuss ideas, and highlight people creating a better world. We've got to keep learning, keep growing, keep being.
• 0:27
  I'm Melissa Beek, and this is Beek on being. Today's episode is Beek on being and trauma. Life is challenging from relationships to work to world events. We may use coping mechanisms that don't really help us to live our best lives. Whether you experience a traumatic event or push it off as just something that happened, if you don't address it, that experience can diminish the quality of your life and relationships and affect your ability to cope.
• 0:54
  Licensed clinical psychologist Doctor. Andrea Loeb and Doctor. Summer Sullivan practices practice owners of South Miami Psychology Group are here to discuss it all. So welcome. I'm so excited to have you here.
• 1:07
  Will you, introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about Sure. Okay.
• 1:12
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I am doctor Andrea Loeb. I am the proud co owner of South Miami Psychology Group with Summer. Yay. We've been in practice over sixteen years, but we've been together longer than that, running our business, which we'll talk about a little later. I grew up in Miami.
• 1:28
  I went to Nova Southeastern University for grad school. I have a PsyD, which is a doctor of psychology, for those of you who don't know. And I split my time professionally with a couple things. Mainly, running South Miami Psychology Group, which we're super proud of. I'm also on the board of Christie House, which is a children's advocacy center for used to be just sexual abuse, but now it's all child trauma.
• 1:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: K.
• 1:55
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And I started the therapy program there in 1999.
• 1:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Amazing.
• 2:00
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And now I'm on the board, so I make more like programmatic decisions. But it's been a really amazing experience. And then I'm also adjunct faculty at Nova Southeastern University, where I help train trauma psychologists in doing trauma therapy with children and adolescents, which is really more of a passion project Mhmm. Because there are not a lot of people who like to work in the area specifically of child trauma, but even more of kind of fine tuned of child sexual abuse. Yeah.
• 2:33
  A lot of people like stay away from that. Sure. And so it's it's incredible to be able to do that. But the work in general, no matter which, you know, area I'm working in is such a special profession. And it's it's an honor to sit across from people usually in their moments that are their most vulnerable and talking about their hardest things and to be able to sit with them.
• 2:57
  So Wow. Thanks for having me.
• 2:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Amazing. I'm so happy you're here. Yes. I don't know when you sleep with all of that, but okay.
• 3:03
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Not sure either.
• 3:05
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And I'm her better half. I'm just kidding.
• 3:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: I love that.
• 3:09
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: My name is Doctor. Summer Sullivan. I am also a Miami native, which I think something important to mention because I'm very proud of that. I received a master's in marriage and family therapy, and then my doctorate in counseling psychology from the University of Miami. So go Canes.
• 3:29
  I have always been passionate, I would say about psychology. I knew from when I was a freshman in high school, which I feel really fortunate to say that I knew what I wanted from day one. But it really came from feeling like a lost teenager. Mhmm. Like a ball of emotions and wanting to really understand why do I feel so emotional all the time.
• 3:50
  Now, I understand I was a highly sensitive child, and I just felt emotions really deeply, and there was nothing necessarily wrong with me. But I started to dive in and started reading books on psychology in high school. And I just fell in love, and I knew this is exactly what I wanted to do.
• 4:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: You found your passion. So
• 4:07
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: when I went to college, I studied psychology, got a undergraduate degree in psychology, and then came right back to University of Miami to do my graduate studies. Fortunately, when I was looking for my postdoc, which is the training that you do once you graduate from the doctoral program, I found a placement in a residential treatment facility for foster children that had been experiencing sexual abuse and trafficking. And it was not something that I had ever known that I was gonna go into. It just happened to be like, that's where I got my placement. And I fell in love with that work.
• 4:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Wow.
• 4:45
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And then I wanted to do more of it. So someone, fortunately, introduced me to Andrea, and asked actually called Andrea, one of the psychologist I knew, asked Andrea, hey, are you interested in taking on a post doc? And she's like, okay, never thought about it. Right.
• 5:03
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I wasn't sure.
• 5:03
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah. Sounds fun. Yep. And it was a perfect placement for me because I was already really falling in love with trauma and Right. Helping support teens with sexual assault.
• 5:13
  And Andrea was already an expert in that area. So it was a perfect match in
• 5:17
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: the beginning. It was.
• 5:18
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And then I'm gonna let her I'm gonna throw it back to her so she can tell the rest of our origin story. I love it. Love it. I love it.
• 5:26
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But yes. Yes. So this this colleague of ours, our mutual colleague, just kind of put us together. And I was like, I don't even know what that would entail, but I'll try it. We started working together.
• 5:37
  Summer got her license. And we looked at each other and we were like, wait a second. Like, it can't end here. We really love working together. And so we kind of say, and that's where we fell in love.
• 5:48
  Melissa Shere Beek: I love it.
• 5:48
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And and that's the funny part of the story. But it it turned into so it was just the two of us for a while. And started off as, you know, I was her supervisor. She was my postdoc. And then we were colleagues.
• 6:00
  And it's really grown into us being best friends.
• 6:02
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I love
• 6:03
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And so we got something out of it that neither of us ever had any idea. You know, Summer was kinda checking a box. And it's been beautiful.
• 6:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: It's amazing. Does the person who introduced you know what they started?
• 6:14
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Absolutely. Oh, okay. And we still talk to her.
• 6:17
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And she's
• 6:17
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: a she's a fellow practice owner too. Okay.
• 6:19
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Good. Good.
• 6:20
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Good. And it's just been amazing. And so it started off just the two of us.
• 6:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 6:25
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And then gradually, because we both grew up here, people who maybe became psychologists or mental health counselors or clinical social workers who maybe took some time off to raise children
• 6:37
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 6:38
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Were like, oh, would you guys consider taking me on part time or me on full time? It was never our intention to have this big of a practice. And it just kind of grew. And we started to fine tune what we were looking for
• 6:52
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 6:53
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: For South Miami Psychology Group. Right. Kind of what was gonna make it a big thriving practice. Right. And so, like we said, it it started off just the two of us.
• 7:05
  We were Andrea Loeb, PsyDPA, and Associates basically. And then we were like, wait, we need a different name.
• 7:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: We need a heading.
• 7:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: We need a heading. So in 2010, we became South Miami Psychology Group. 17 clinicians later.
• 7:19
  Melissa Shere Beek: Amazing. We are. That's so fabulous. Yeah. You should be so proud.
• 7:24
  That's so incredible.
• 7:25
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: We
• 7:25
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: are. Even And though seventeen sounds like a lot, it really is a family. It feels really intimate. When I hear that number, I'm like, wow, that sounds like so many. But we really have an intimate boutique feel to our practice.
• 7:36
  Melissa Shere Beek: I love that.
• 7:37
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And we know all of our clinicians very intimately. We consult with them all the time, collaborate on cases.
• 7:42
  Melissa Shere Beek: So That's so cool. It's And been they have each other. I I can't it's spectacular. So tell me a little bit about, like, what population that you all see in the practice and what modalities you use.
• 7:54
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yes. So what's really cool about our practice is our vision about the practice was that right now, people, especially because of the Internet and AI, people are really knowledgeable about what they need. And so people actually call asking for specialists in specific areas, specialists in certain modalities. So we call the practice SMPG for short. At SMPG, we really make a Summer and I make a concerted effort to make sure we have specialists in most areas.
• 8:27
  Because we would never want someone to finally get the courage to call. Then for us to say, sorry, we have someone who can kinda do that. So we've assembled Yeah. Purposefully Yeah. People.
• 8:39
  So you both heard you heard that both of us have passion with trauma Right. Child sexual abuse, things like that. I also, about five to ten years ago, started becoming really interested in OCD. Mhmm. And actually, those two things, trauma and OCD tend to co occur.
• 8:58
  Melissa Shere Beek: So they're Interesting.
• 9:00
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: My ideal people that I tend to see are people who have both
• 9:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: Got it.
• 9:07
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Across the lifespan.
• 9:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: I didn't know there was a connection with them. There is. That's cool.
• 9:11
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: There is oftentimes. And and it's neat because sometimes if you just treat one of them, the other one will remit.
• 9:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure.
• 9:19
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Or you can treat both of them alongside each So it's it's really
• 9:22
  Melissa Shere Beek: That's fabulous.
• 9:22
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Interesting. So those are my two kind of passions.
• 9:25
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 9:25
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Certainly, working in a private practice in a community, I see all kinds of things. But in terms of things I'm a specialist in, those are the two. Right. Okay.
• 9:36
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yep. And I also specialize in trauma, like we mentioned before. I also love working with grief. And we can talk a little bit later if you want about traumatic grief. Yes.
• 9:47
  Alright. That's fine. The intersection between trauma and grief. It's something I find very passionate about. Even just talking about it right now, I felt myself getting emotional.
• 9:56
  Yeah. Because it's it is a really hard thing to sit in a room with somebody who has experienced traumatic grief. Yeah. And it's also like a big honor to be in the and helping somebody through that journey. But I can feel it in my body so clearly.
• 10:08
  Yeah. It is it's been a really meaningful subsection of a population that I've really gravitated towards lately. And something I really love to do, I work with all ages. So I work with you all ages, I would say, from five up. Wow.
• 10:23
  Okay.
• 10:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: Even in pediatric. Okay.
• 10:25
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yes. Definitely. Mhmm. We work with a lot of, I think, children with grief as well and and trauma. And that's something we're very proud of.
• 10:34
  I also like to do really looking at a mind body approach. So really setting energy psychology and somatic experiencing understanding how the emotions exist inside our body. And so not just looking at our mind and our thoughts and our cognitions, are just as important as
• 10:50
  Melissa Shere Beek: our The own manifestations
• 10:52
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: as well. So when somebody's looking for that kind of approach where they said, I've tried this, but this didn't work. Can you do something different with me? I sometimes get excited at that opportunity to kind of go into the body first.
• 11:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, that's And trust
• 11:07
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: how the trauma lives inside the body.
• 11:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: So we keep saying trauma. Can you guys define what trauma is and isn't?
• 11:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Absolutely. So there's all different definitions.
• 11:17
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 11:17
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And really, I mean, we could have
• 11:19
  Melissa Shere Beek: the
• 11:19
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: the clinical definition. But it's not so much the thing that happens to you. Right? Mhmm. That would be like a traumatic experience.
• 11:27
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 11:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right? Whether it's a big trauma, like things we think about, like a car accident or Mhmm. Things like that. And then there and those tend to be big t traumas
• 11:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 11:39
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Rape, things like that
• 11:40
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 11:40
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Tend to be one time events or, you know, very few events. Whereas little t traumas are things like bullying and chronic stress response to life situations, you know, like divorce and things like that. But when we think of trauma, there's really a difference between person a who went through a car accident and had no symptoms. And person b who they would define their car accident as a trauma because of how it felt and what types of behavioral manifestations
• 12:13
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 12:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: You had afterwards. So it's really I'm always very careful in a session. If someone is using the word my trauma or I had a trauma, I'm not gonna nitpick at all and validate them. So trauma is really
• 12:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: Personal experience.
• 12:31
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Personal experience. And it's usually defined the kind of technical term is something outside of the realm of what we would expect.
• 12:38
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 12:39
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: That has a long lasting impact. Right. We're really looking at something, right, that has It continues. Printed on your nervous system, on your ability to feel safe in this world, on their ability to cope with life.
• 12:49
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 12:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So that's when we know that there actually, a trauma has occurred if there's that long lasting impact. Okay. Versus like an adverse event.
• 12:58
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 12:58
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Which can also be in the moment very shocking and disorganizing, but maybe it doesn't carry the same imprint on your belief systems.
• 13:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: Long term. Yeah.
• 13:06
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Long term.
• 13:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: Is there a misconception with trauma?
• 13:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I mean, I don't know. How would you answer
• 13:16
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: that? I mean, nowadays, right, the word is being thrown around So a lot I think it's it's we have to be careful not to identify too much with, oh, I have all these traumas, I've been traumatized. Right. Because you're also giving your power away to an event or another person. So I do think in that way, know, you it's important sometimes that we clarify with a client or individual what is a trauma, what's not a trauma.
• 13:41
  The same like Andrew was saying, it's really about how that experience imprinted on their emotions. Right. And so if they identify as a trauma, you know, we're probably going to dig a little deeper and see if there are any secondary gains there. Are they benefiting from saying I have this trauma? Or is there truly this long lasting impact and this person really needs the healing that we can provide through therapy?
• 14:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: So you said about throwing words around. So there's another word that's being thrown around all the time, intergenerational trauma. Can you tell us what inter generational trauma is? Can we sort of because everybody just sort of like uses it loosely. Sure.
• 14:20
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Absolutely. And they imagine we all have some.
• 14:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, I'm sure.
• 14:23
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I'm sure.
• 14:23
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Exactly. Absolutely.
• 14:25
  Melissa Shere Beek: None of us have escaped that.
• 14:26
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: No. Definitely not. So it's it's a really interesting field. And I think something that more recently has gotten attention. And that's probably why you're hearing it as But a there's a bunch of different things related to intergenerational trauma.
• 14:43
  And it's it's really what it says, which is you can have a life that you're not identifying as having trauma in it. But your relatives, both your relatives that are genetic relatives and just relatives that maybe you live
• 14:58
  Melissa Shere Beek: Proximity, yeah.
• 14:59
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: In proximity, their traumas, especially if they're not processed, can be filtered down to
• 15:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: you. Right.
• 15:05
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And they can be filtered down to you in a number of ways. And there's kind of more emerging research that's really cool and exciting Uh-huh. About it as well. But it can be passed down through genetics.
• 15:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: Mhmm. Really from genetics? From just like continued microaggressions or like No. Dumping. But from genetics
• 15:24
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: as well.
• 15:25
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So through genetics and then behavior, whether that's being exposed to hearing about your parents' trauma or your grandparents' trauma. Sure. Or having your parents' or grandparents' trauma impact how they parent you.
• 15:40
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right? A 100%.
• 15:42
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So like a mother who was traumatized, let's say, a victim of sexual assault or sexual abuse might be very protective of their daughters. Mhmm. Because they don't want that same experience to befall them. But actually, there is a a whole new field emerging where they are even talking about the genetic material passed down from a great grandmother cellular to level. Wow.
• 16:09
  Because when a female child is born Uh-huh. They are born with all of the eggs Mhmm. That they will have in their lifetime. So you imagine if that child with their eggs has a trauma, those eggs are gonna become potentially other children. Right.
• 16:28
  And so even the transmission of that genetic material, there's a lot of research from the Holocaust
• 16:35
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure.
• 16:35
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Specifically.
• 16:36
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure.
• 16:37
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So it's a really emerging and interesting field. But both the genetic and the behavioral Yeah. Components.
• 16:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure. Oh, wow. That's fascinating. Okay. So how does that different from other traumatic events?
• 16:52
  Because you talked about there's different sorts of traumas. There's the big t's and the little t's. So we talked about intergenerational. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the other traumas?
• 17:01
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I think we can differentiate between what we call like a simple trauma, which is a one time event.
• 17:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: So an acute situation kind of thing.
• 17:08
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So like a car accident, for example, is one that most people can relate And then there's complex trauma. So complex trauma often occurs in the context of a relationship. But it's more of the ongoing trauma, and it could look like neglect. It could look like poverty. It could look like abuse, mistreatment, ongoing sexual assault.
• 17:31
  So it's something that is ongoing.
• 17:33
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 17:34
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And like I said, it doesn't have to exist within a relationship, but oftentimes it does. And what we find is that when it does exist within a relationship, those are the ones that have the most profound, long lasting impact on the individual. Yeah. Because relationships are meant to keep us safe.
• 17:50
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 17:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And differentiation with something that's just bad that happens to you and something that's traumatic is that it disrupts your sense of safety in this world.
• 17:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Sure.
• 18:00
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Mhmm. And so that's something we see a lot, especially when people are not being able as adults to be in a healthy relationship as well. So
• 18:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: So you really have a spectrum of levels as far as intensities and stuff like that?
• 18:13
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yes.
• 18:13
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 18:14
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Well, I think something that's really important to think about is, and Andrea mentioned it before, is that whether it's a big T or a little t really depends on the person's risk factors when the trauma occurred. And when we talk about risk factors, we're talking about their nervous system regulation, their support system
• 18:35
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 18:35
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Their internal and external resources.
• 18:38
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 18:38
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: The the environment they grew up in, the culture that they grew up in. All of that really Sure. Determines
• 18:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Impacts. Yeah.
• 18:44
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And impacts if somebody's trauma is going to be a big t or a little t. So we like to look at the risk factors as a way to also help prepare and prevent people who might go through a trauma in the future saying, okay, these are the risk factors. So then what are the protective factors? Right. And really diving deep and saying, okay, so trauma's likely to happen to all of us.
• 19:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure.
• 19:06
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So if we know that there are these risk factors that make you more susceptible to a long lasting impact for trauma, how can we up kids, especially their protective factors? How can we help them have stronger belief systems that they can handle hard things? Can they have better coping skills? Making sure that they know how to ask for help, confidence, feeling strong, having more support, and those kind of things.
• 19:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And just building resilience. Yeah. Sure. One of the things that is a huge protective factor. So we know as much as we would like to bubble wrap our kids and keep them safe and make sure, you know, nothing in this big bad world happens to them.
• 19:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure.
• 19:41
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Things are gonna happen. Yeah. Right? And so teaching them, we always say, wouldn't it be nice if, like, in preschool before life gets to
• 19:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 19:51
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Them that we could kind of teach everyone a package of coping skills? Because hard things are gonna happen. Right? But there are also things that while we can't prevent things from happening, specifically in the area of sexual abuse, one of the number one predictive factors of whether a child is going to be okay, and I wanna kind of put an exclamation mark on this. Okay.
• 20:15
  If you if your listeners hear nothing today.
• 20:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. Other than this is the main takeaway.
• 20:20
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: This is the this is one of the main takeaways is that the first person they tell, if they believe them, that prognostically sets them up for success. That's right. Versus the contrary, if they are not believed, they can, of course, be successful. We have great interventions.
• 20:42
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 20:42
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But you're really setting your child up for success if you believe them.
• 20:46
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 20:47
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I have had cases where sexual abuse was minor. And what I mean by that is there's a full range just like everything else.
• 20:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 20:55
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But something that was non contact, maybe they had to watch something or see something they weren't their brains weren't ready to see. So it there was not what we consider extreme sexual abuse. But they told someone and they didn't they brushed it off and didn't believe it. And then I've had someone who has had what we would consider extreme sexual abuse, which for trigger warning purposes, won't get into. Yeah.
• 21:21
  But they were believed by the first person who they were told.
• 21:23
  Melissa Shere Beek: Which makes a huge difference.
• 21:24
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: That person, even though they didn't have as severe of abuse content, will do better and has done better. I've seen it time and time again.
• 21:33
  Melissa Shere Beek: Amazing.
• 21:34
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So the good news is even though we can't prevent always, of
• 21:38
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: course,
• 21:38
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: we do a lot. There's a lot of prevention work Right. About safety and body safety and things like that. But if we can't prevent it, we can intervene immediately. Uh-huh.
• 21:50
  And prognostically, it changes things.
• 21:52
  Melissa Shere Beek: So when you talk about sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt But I was you were saying that we we talk about prevention. Do you go out to schools? Is it just with your patients? Or how are you getting out there to teach people better coping schools and prevention skills?
• 22:06
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So I we don't do it personally. Christy House does have
• 22:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 22:11
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: A lot of their grants. And there are children's advocacy center. There are children's advocacy centers all over the country. And one of their missions, of course, is to help with children who have already experienced trauma. Right.
• 22:24
  But there's a big prevention piece also that they do
• 22:26
  Melissa Shere Beek: in I wanna know from prevention. Okay.
• 22:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Absolutely. And then in sessions, for people who have been victims, we do some of that future prevention. But it's very strategic and tricky because in that therapeutic intervention, we wanna make sure the the thinking isn't well, if you did this, that wouldn't have happened to you.
• 22:49
  Melissa Shere Beek: Because then it's
• 22:50
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So so it's tricky. Right. But we are careful. We do all kinds of like, I guess, creative things. Like, bring
• 22:56
  Melissa Shere Beek: up hula hoops modalities do you use? You said hula hoops like Yes.
• 23:02
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yes. So we do we like do hula hoops and balloons. Really fun, child friendly things to explain personal space. And then you have to ask someone if
• 23:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: they can come
• 23:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: into their your personal space. So Well, that's It's not all, like, serious, you know Right.
• 23:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: It's play Right.
• 23:19
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: With little ones.
• 23:20
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah. So I wanted to jump on oh, just hit the microphone. One more thing, because I love that you gave a takeaway for whoever's listening about making sure that a child or an adult is believed when they come forth and finally get the courage talk about the trauma. But there's something that's really cool that's also important to talk about, which is memory consolidation. So every time you tell a memory
• 23:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh. Right.
• 23:45
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: You open up the window Mhmm. To the memory occurred. So memories are not fixed.
• 23:50
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 23:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: They are adaptive. They are meant to be adaptive. They are malleable. So every time I recall something and share with somebody a memory, a window opens. So if a child comes and tells a parent or finally gets the courage to say, this thing happened to me, that memory of the difficult thing that happened to them is open.
• 24:09
  And it's open for about six hours.
• 24:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, really? So
• 24:12
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: this is an important thing, whether it's somebody recalling a memory or something for parents and and caregivers to know. If there isn't a trauma, you have six hours after the trauma, that that meant that the cement is still wet. So yes, this bad thing happened, but can I show up with a lot of compassion? Can I show up and help the child or the person feel so resilient? Can I empower them to know that even though this difficult thing happened Yeah?
• 24:41
  They are going to be able to get through it provide them those resources and give them that support. So that when that memory does harden, and it doesn't harden permanently, but it does harden in after those six hours, that trauma is with now this lens of even though this hard thing happened, I am believed, I'm validated. I'm seen. Supportive. I'm I'm loved.
• 25:02
  I am strong.
• 25:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: I will be okay.
• 25:04
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So that's really important. But what's normally happens after a trauma is everyone is in panic. Everyone is in crisis. Whoever experienced the trauma a lot of times has a lot of fear, shame, vulnerability, powerlessness. And that's what gets cemented and kind of Right.
• 25:20
  Filed away with that trauma.
• 25:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 25:22
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So as important it is to believe somebody when they come, it's also like thinking about, okay, not to invalidate them, obviously. Right. And not to be like, don't worry, you're gonna be okay. Right. You're strong.
• 25:33
  You can handle this. But really making sure though that they Have the they tools. Have the tools, and they feel empowered, and they feel like they have the support. Because that is really what in the future, we need to be turning off the alarm bells that the trauma has occurred inside our brain. And our alarm bells often don't get turned off if we believe that we're not safe and we're not gonna be safe again in the future.
• 25:55
  So really using that time. And so as a segue into what type of therapies we do
• 26:01
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 26:02
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Andrea and I do a lot of similar therapy and therapeutic interventions. And then we have areas that we differ just because of our passions. Right? We're in a really amazing time right now. There's so many new trauma interventions coming out.
• 26:15
  So many empirically supported interventions that really help. There's thing there's therapies called top down approaches and bottom up approaches. And we do that a little bit. Tell us
• 26:26
  Melissa Shere Beek: more about that.
• 26:26
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So I do a bottom up approach mainly, and she does a top approach. Mainly, they're both important. They're both needed. They integrate beautifully with one another. And it really goes to a lot of times the client, what the client's needs are.
• 26:39
  But so I was talking a lot about memory because my favorite trauma treatment really works on the reconsolidation of a memory associated with a trauma. Okay. And it's called accelerated resolution therapy
• 26:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 26:52
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Or ART. Okay. And it comes from EMDR, which is a very popular trauma treatment that's been around for a while. And ART is a newer version of EMDR. And we're really looking at that traumatic memories hold the emotional charge.
• 27:08
  It's almost like that trauma is frozen in time inside your body, inside your amygdala, inside your mind. And through these treatments where we utilize moving your eyes from side to side, which is called bilateral simulation. And it helps open up the memory. Mhmm. And then once the memory is open, we can release the emotional charge that's stuck there.
• 27:31
  And then you get to go back and using your secure self now and rewrite the story. Because a lot of times, trauma writes the story. Right? Something bad happens to us and it writes the story, it definitely imprints on our belief system. Right.
• 27:43
  How we see the world, how we see ourselves, how safe we feel. And now with the windows open, and you're recalling this memory and you're exposing yourself to something really scary, but you get to take control over it. Right. You get to take power over it and say, how do I wanna refile this in my mind?
• 27:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 27:59
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So that's the type of therapy that I do, which kind of goes through the body first. It's quieting the emotional charge. Right? Helping that nervous system regulate and finally feel safe. What we know is our brain is wired for safety.
• 28:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Mhmm.
• 28:14
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And it's also wired for healing, which is why what we do is so powerful because people really can heal. Yeah. But we have to feel safe first. So once our body feels safe, then you can go into the cognitions and the thoughts and the belief systems, and you get to take ownership of your story, which Andrew's gonna tell a little bit about what she So that bottoms. That's bottom up.
• 28:32
  It's kinda going
• 28:33
  Melissa Shere Beek: through
• 28:33
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: the The brain. Body And then rewriting your story, taking control of the narrative is what Andrea does more of.
• 28:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 28:39
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Which is why it's so beautiful. Because then it becomes this empowering experience.
• 28:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Also pieces that fit together.
• 28:44
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah. Do wanna talk a little bit about that? Yeah.
• 28:46
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Sure. So what I do is something called TFCBT, which is trauma focused CBT.
• 28:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 28:52
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And so
• 28:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: And for our listeners, CBT is cognitive behavioral Cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah. Just wanted to just find that context.
• 28:58
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Exactly. CBT is really the most evidence based treatment in mental health interventions right now. There's certainly a ton of different interventions, but really the idea because I wanna give a little education of that first. Yeah. The idea behind CBT is there's something called the CBT triangle.
• 29:20
  And the idea is that your thoughts and the way you're talking to yourself, thinking about and talking to yourself about anything impacts how you feel and how you behave. And so if we can tweak and change, not invalidate, but tweak the way we're thinking and talking to ourselves about something, it can impact how we feel and how we act.
• 29:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: A 100%.
• 29:42
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So then where trauma focused CBT comes in is there's a whole bunch of steps, including learning how to regulate mood and affect and how to
• 29:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: cope Mhmm.
• 29:55
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Emotional coping. And then there's cognitive coping, which is the CBT part of it. Working with your thoughts and challenging dysfunctional or or thoughts that are not serving And then there's the trauma narrative portion. The trauma narrative, much like art, is reconsolidating or restoring in a different way the way the trauma occurred. And so when you are in active trauma, you are in survival mode, you are in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, and they keep adding more.
• 30:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Right. As we come
• 30:30
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: become more knowledgeable Right. About all the processes. So the way it gets encoded is kind of fear based and survival based. Yeah. But when you're in therapy, especially after you've done relationship building, learned to cope, learned to think about things differently, and you're safe in an office with someone you care about.
• 30:53
  Right. When you open up that trauma
• 30:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 30:58
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: It can get stored differently. And we actually as we store it, we separate the emotion and the physiological reaction from the actual story
• 31:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 31:09
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And the narrative. And so I've kind of come up with I don't even know if I've shared this with you. With my students, I do kind of an interesting thing with the trauma narrative. So a traditional trauma narrative that you can do with children, that you do with adults, is you have them write their story of the actual trauma with details, with sensory information, what the room looked like, what clothes you were wearing or not wearing, what the temperature felt like, really getting into the details.
• 31:40
  Melissa Shere Beek: All the senses of everything.
• 31:41
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: All of the senses, what you were thinking, what you were feeling. And you write it out, usually like a sentence at a time. And we do really protective things during that. So we take ratings of something called a SUDS, which is a subjective unit of distress.
• 31:56
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 31:56
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And it's usually some people do one to a 100. Some people do one to 10. But either way, the child, let's say, would say a sentence. I'd be writing down exactly what they say.
• 32:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 32:08
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And I'd say on scale one to 10, how are you feeling?
• 32:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 32:12
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So not rating the narrative, but rating the feeling.
• 32:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. The emotion.
• 32:15
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And so We do there's with every story. Right? There's a before, a during, and an after. Sure. So we will do the before.
• 32:22
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 32:23
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And then we'll read it a bunch of times. And we'll read it walking around the room. We'll read it sitting back to back. We'll read it in a singing voice until that suds level for the before Right. Goes down to something manageable.
• 32:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 32:38
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And while we're doing this, the child or the adult is starting to regulate and get used to what the process is.
• 32:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Got it.
• 32:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Then I do something mixed up. And in my in my trauma training group, we actually use an Alice in Wonderland analogy. So we call this Mad Hatter style.
• 32:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 32:57
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So we do the before.
• 32:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 32:59
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: We leave the actual trauma to the side. Okay. And then we do the story or the narrative of the after. And we read it and we take suds ratings the same way. And then we put it together.
• 33:13
  So it's the before and
• 33:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: the after
• 33:15
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: or the after and the before Mad Hatter style.
• 33:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Right.
• 33:18
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 33:18
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So it's all mixed up. But it's getting reconsolidated into the brain as this is a silly thing. Right. Had kids do karaoke version.
• 33:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: Then then
• 33:29
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: we add the during. Now by then, they've already done all of these wacky mixed up Mad Hatter things. They know that I'm never gonna let their suds get so high that they're so dysregulated and distressed.
• 33:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 33:43
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So then we do the actual trauma, but it doesn't even seem as like As dramatic. Yeah. Here we go. Mhmm. Because they know the process.
• 33:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 33:52
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And then we keep mixing it up Mad Hatter style
• 33:54
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Brilliant.
• 33:55
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Until the suds is lower. And then we do white rabbit style, which is in the correct order.
• 34:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 34:01
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So by now, at this point, they're like, I am so sick of saying I'm saying these words.
• 34:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: You've said these I'm done. Sentenced
• 34:09
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: 200 times. Yeah. But guess what? The emotion is detached from it.
• 34:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 34:14
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And it's just a narrative that who had control over it, they did.
• 34:18
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 34:19
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Versus when they were victimized, someone else had control.
• 34:23
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 34:24
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And I think why something that's so beautiful about that is that when we have a trauma, and we can talk about PTSD, which is the disorder of when a trauma your threshold for handling that trauma has become so significant that you're not able to function, that our go to strategy to protect ourselves is avoidance.
• 34:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 34:44
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And then your strategy, you're not letting them avoid it Right. At all. Right? So then after a while, it's that exposure to maybe I don't have to live in fear of this Right. Or maybe I don't have to have this thing have so much power over me.
• 34:57
  I can change my relationship with the trauma. And I think as long as you're avoiding talking about the trauma or and that's why therapy is so important. Or, you know, reliving or thinking about the trauma, you're sending a message to your brain that this thing is so scary, and I'm so terrified about this. And it was so bad that I could never think about it again. I can't talk about it.
• 35:16
  I can't share it with anyone.
• 35:17
  Melissa Shere Beek: But then it's all you can think But
• 35:19
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: right. So because the brain wants us to heal.
• 35:22
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 35:23
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right? So why does the brain bring us those distressing images? Why does the brain create those nightmares at night? The brain is saying, hey
• 35:29
  Melissa Shere Beek: We gotta deal with this.
• 35:30
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: We gotta deal with this. We gotta process this. There is strength. And I think it's like recognizing that we are built to adapt. We are adaptable.
• 35:37
  And in order to adapt, we need to go through the difficult situations.
• 35:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: I think more people need to know that and understand that. Because I don't think people realize what you just said. That we are adaptable. Mhmm. And we have power to adapt.
• 35:50
  Yes. Because a lot of people are functioning in in just that moment and and dealing with the now and not thinking about, oh, I have the ability to help myself.
• 35:59
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I think an interesting thing that we see a lot, and we talk about it a lot with adults, is a lot of times adults will come to us and they'll say, I had this trauma when I was a child, but I thought I was over it. I never think about it anymore. It's not really bothering me. And now I'm happy and in a healthy relationship. I have a good job.
• 36:17
  Everything's great. And now all of a sudden, I'm having flashbacks, and nightmares are keeping me up all day. And why is this coming back now?
• 36:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 36:25
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And it's like, oh, it's coming back now. One, because your body's finally feels safe
• 36:29
  Melissa Shere Beek: To deal with it.
• 36:29
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: To address it. But the brain is, like we said, so adaptable. When you're in survival mode, your brain does protect you from Right. Dealing with more of these challenging triggering situations because it's trying to just help you survive. Once you're out of survival mode, your brain's like, wait, hold on.
• 36:44
  We're here to evolve. Yeah. So we need to go back and find the lesson in that trauma. Where is the strength? Where is that, like, missing piece of these resources that we can really Right.
• 36:56
  Access and integrate from a trauma that will help you be a better version of yourself. But it's always, I think, very alarming to people that are saying, why now? Like, you
• 37:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: know Yeah. Why why is this coming back? I wanna go back to what you said about like that that six hour window. Mhmm. So how does a loved one, especially if you're dealing with a pediatric person who's had trauma, how does a loved one identify, oh, wait, this child has this opportunity right now that they they can help themselves by them taking them to a therapist and dealing with the trauma that they've been exposed to or experienced.
• 37:27
  So how does a loved one identify? Because a lot of children don't always come home and say, Oh, this is what happened to me. Sometimes they're just trying to process it themselves. So how can a parent make that assessment and say, oh, I think something's happened?
• 37:42
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Like what are the symptoms that a child may be exhibiting that something is wrong?
• 37:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yeah. So we really look to behavior change or personality change. So
• 37:51
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: if your
• 37:52
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: child let's say in the case of bullying Mhmm. For example. If your child usually gets in the car and is talking about their day and has a certain, you know, what are we having for a snack or where are we going or can we set up a play date? And they get in the car and they just put their head down.
• 38:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, their affect's completely different.
• 38:07
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Their affect's completely different. That doesn't mean they were traumatized, but
• 38:11
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: it Something's happening.
• 38:12
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Something's happening that's worthy of asking. And I don't want the message to be that parents only have a six hour window. And if you miss
• 38:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: it No.
• 38:21
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But your child is destined for for some problem.
• 38:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: No. But there has to be some way they can identify some of the symptoms. Exactly.
• 38:28
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Exactly. Every time we talk about a memory, the six hour so there's so many opportunities.
• 38:32
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 38:32
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: It's like as many as you want.
• 38:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Because we're constantly thinking.
• 38:36
  Right. Each new time is an opportunity to address it.
• 38:39
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And, yes, we're talking about a lot of traumas. But because we specialize in, you know, at in child sexual abuse and things like that, a lot of those types of traumas also inherent have secrecy. Mhmm. And some And have shame. Shame.
• 38:56
  There's threats of, you know, don't tell anybody or this will So more likely than not, it takes a while.
• 39:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 39:04
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Even if the if it's not chronic and it only happens once, it takes a while. You have to have a lot of courage. Sure. And so it's okay. And it is not a parental failure No.
• 39:16
  Or a systemic failure if if you don't see the signs. Because some kids don't show any signs. Right. Some adults don't show any signs. Right.
• 39:24
  And what that means is the resilience is really kicking in. Right. And they're really showing up like they did before.
• 39:31
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 39:33
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Something I wanna make sure that we have time that when Summer and I were talking about coming on this podcast that was really important to us is trauma is so heavy. And it seems like, oh my goodness. Like, what if we can't prevent things from happening to us or the people we love? Not only are we resilient, not only are there fantastic and more and more everyday interventions that are working and evidence based and research, But there's actually a really cool concept called post traumatic growth.
• 40:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. Tell me.
• 40:06
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: That is a concept where it is not the doomsday. If something bad happens to you, you are doomed to a life of therapy or
• 40:15
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: a
• 40:15
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: life of challenges. Having things happen to you that are adverse events can actually build a really strong character. Right. We talk about this all the time.
• 40:26
  Melissa Shere Beek: Make you more resilient.
• 40:27
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And make you more resilient. So it's not like, yay, let's run out and have some traumas. No. But I think it's such a positive way to look at the lens of there's a lot we can't control in this world, especially with media and politics and everything the way it is now. Rather than try and insulate ourselves, can we get excited about, yes, we can prevent.
• 40:51
  Yes, we can intervene. But also Coping. We are incredible humans. Our brains are beautiful. There's so much wonderful within us and between us Yeah.
• 41:01
  That works so well that we don't
• 41:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: think the between us is missing a lot lately.
• 41:05
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: That's Exactly. Exactly. And we had thrown around the term protective factors. One of the things that separates people who have had an adverse event but become traumatized or diagnosable with PTSD and someone who's okay is really protective factors. Things like safety, security, but mostly social and family support.
• 41:34
  Yeah. Are human beings for a reason. Right? And so having people around us and having a social support system that maybe it's not who you think it is. Maybe it's not your mom or your sister, but maybe it's the lady down the street or
• 41:49
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: a teacher.
• 41:50
  Melissa Shere Beek: Or a best
• 41:50
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: friend. And so another thing that we can do to bolster people's protective factors in case they have an event Mhmm. Is to build up their social support network.
• 42:01
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. So I was gonna ask you a little bit about, like, if someone's suffered a traumatic event, how did they begin to heal? So having that support system Mhmm. And be coming to you, Is there a difference between when you work on healing with someone, is there a difference between like a mental trauma and a physical trauma? Because you talked about like car accidents or
• 42:23
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: you talked
• 42:23
  Melissa Shere Beek: about sexual abuse or like
• 42:25
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I mean, I think that there's no way to separate them. Right? Right. A physical trauma is going to include some emotional And a lot of times, we think of depression, for example, or extreme angst almost as a pain. Right?
• 42:40
  It's a painful emotion. The word trauma, you know, it's a Greek word that means wound.
• 42:46
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 42:46
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right? So whether it's an emotional wound or a physical wound, it's a long lasting impact of that wound
• 42:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 42:54
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: On a person's or third Trauma.
• 42:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Yeah. No. When you talk about it, you know, some people are like
• 43:01
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So I think it's like whether it's a physical or an emotional trauma Mhmm. Therapy, rehabilitation Right. Having social support. You know, I think a physical wound also impacts the nervous system and our ability to feel safe. And so there's gonna be a focus on healing the nervous system, whether it's physical or emotional.
• 43:21
  And one of the beautiful things, if you're looking at how do I regulate my nervous system, right? It's a it's a buzzword right now or buzzwords. Yeah. Everyone's talking about it, which is really awesome. Mhmm.
• 43:31
  But the quickest and easiest way to regulate your nervous system is through social engagement. It's through social support. So going back to how important a hug. Right?
• 43:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, yeah.
• 43:41
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Eye contact, a glance, somebody just touching you, holding you, holding space Immediately, for it sends a signal to your nervous system that you are safe.
• 43:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Yep.
• 43:51
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And so for those people who maybe do not have social support and are gonna go through maybe healing Uh-huh. Or wanna start doing the work, maybe joining us a support group. Right? And you can go online and find lots of now with virtual support groups, a lot of free support groups. And I think that's probably an important component.
• 44:13
  Because I do think it's kinda hard
• 44:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: I think nowadays everybody's isolated. I think that's a huge component. But what happens when you're working with a patient and they're doing very well, but they have a moment of panic or anxiety or maybe a little bit of a relapse? You talk about our brains. They're brilliant.
• 44:31
  They want us to heal and adaptability. So how do you help a client get over that sort of hump or relapse, let's say?
• 44:40
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: You're talking about like in the moment they have like a rise of physiological symptoms. Maybe rapid heart rate, things like that.
• 44:47
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Mhmm.
• 44:47
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: That's when the bottom up approach really works. Okay. Breathing, yoga, body work.
• 44:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. So more of a physical
• 44:58
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Andrea and I both in our sessions almost are accounting for. That there's a window of tolerance.
• 45:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 45:04
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right? That we, for the most part, are trying to keep our client when they're processing these we we don't want them to be retraumatized Right. When they're talking about it. Now Sure. If they do start experiencing these intense emotions and this reactivation, we have strategies that we both use.
• 45:20
  For example, we both use hot stones. We love hot stones.
• 45:23
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, I like that right now.
• 45:24
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And so we have those And hot stones when you're holding them. Right? The warmth is really nurturing. It's very grounding.
• 45:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 45:31
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: We have weighted blankets that our clients are using. So we're making sure that while they're talking about this really activating event, that their body is in a state of calm.
• 45:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. So these are great. Because I was thinking, like, what happens when it becomes too overwhelming? I like the hot stones and the blankets.
• 45:47
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: We also have container exercises, which is a beautiful So no matter who comes through our door, if they're gonna be talking about trauma, we're gonna teach them some sort of container exercise. And depending on the therapist, that might look different. And that could be, okay, we're gonna talk about this really difficult thing. When we're done, until next week, we're gonna put this trauma until it's fully processed you can really come into a container. Brilliant.
• 46:11
  And that could be like imagining in your head, a mason jar
• 46:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 46:15
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Or a box. Or some people will imagine a box in the bookshelf. Right. Or say,
• 46:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: filing cabinet.
• 46:19
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yes. Mhmm. A drawer. Right. Right.
• 46:22
  And so sometimes trauma therapy is just about opening up the drawer and looking and saying, okay, my trauma's in that drawer. And at some point, I could be talking to Andrea about it. But for now, I'm gonna keep it in And my that's an exposure. Right? Yeah.
• 46:36
  And that just helps the nerves prepare the nervous system to say, okay, we're gonna be doing this and it's safe. Right. And if it gets too much, I put it back in the drawer. Right.
• 46:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: I'll deal with Right. It
• 46:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right. And I think Summer said something earlier that I think needs more emphasis, which is our natural response to something scary or traumatic happening is to push it down.
• 47:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure.
• 47:00
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right? That's and we've all and you talk about generational transmission of things. Probably our grandmothers and our mothers, when something bad happened, if they didn't know how to deal with it, they'd say just forget about it. Or Right. You know, but as we know,
• 47:15
  Melissa Shere Beek: are Or they dumped our their traumas on us.
• 47:17
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Exactly. Then there's that.
• 47:18
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Either way.
• 47:19
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Then there's that. And I think, like Summer had said, sometimes, usually when we're safe and things are going well and it's really confusing, all of a sudden symptoms will pop up. Yeah. I think we really, as trauma therapists, have so much faith in what we do and the interventions and the softness with which we approach it that it doesn't have to be scary. Right.
• 47:45
  And it can be something that can feel really empowering to finally just let see the light of day. I love that. And one of the ways that one of my favorite ways that you reminded me with the, like, opening it up, peeking in, and being like, no, not yet. And now that's an exposure. I will oftentimes have the person sitting across from me, whether it's a child or whoever it is, write in really light pencil.
• 48:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: Mhmm.
• 48:11
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: The name or the title of the person who did the thing to them. And then we just let it we talk about what they're doing this weekend, what their favorite toy to play with is. But that name, very faintly, is always kind of present
• 48:25
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 48:25
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: There. And sometimes based on what we know about the trauma response, we won't even put like the primary name. We'll put like the kid that lives in the yellow house Right. Or whatever it is. But that so we don't engage in avoidance.
• 48:40
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 48:41
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: There's always a part of the trauma
• 48:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: That's present.
• 48:44
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: That's present.
• 48:45
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 48:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So for example But lightly present. But lightly present. So what same thing with grief work. Mhmm. You know?
• 48:54
  Even if you're not ready to process the grief, maybe having the name of the person Yeah. Who passed away just somewhere or mentioning at least once. So it's that that exposure, but it's so gentle and subtle that you almost can't
• 49:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: Not re traumatize.
• 49:08
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right. Exactly.
• 49:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: So you talk about grief and things like that. And I always think about grief comes in waves. You're never really you just sort of accept a new normal. But what do you do with a patient who has that sort of PTSD situation? So
• 49:26
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I love that you said the grief comes in waves. Because I think that's another sign of how adaptable we really are as humans. So grief is the one emotion that you cannot escape.
• 49:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 49:37
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Every other emotion, we really could, you know, displace it to somebody else, push it down, you know. No. Pretend like it doesn't exist. No. Your body and your heart is gonna say, no, no, no.
• 49:49
  Yeah. We have this. And it and it's a beautiful thing. Right? And it's so I mean, so difficult to go through.
• 49:54
  But the fact that your body has this natural way of healing.
• 49:57
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Mhmm.
• 49:58
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So when we take that grief, but then we put a trauma on top of the grief. When that loss occurred
• 50:04
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Mhmm.
• 50:04
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: In a traumatic, shocking, horrific, unexpected way, a lot of times the trauma prevents the person from being able to go through those natural stages of grief. And we know that grief never goes away, and you're processing it forever. But it changes. Right? And it can be, I guess, less damaging at times when you kinda make peace with it.
• 50:26
  But we really need to work on that trauma because the trauma is making you relive.
• 50:31
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Mhmm.
• 50:32
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: That thing that you're trying to make peace with
• 50:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 50:35
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Over and over again through a lens of this wasn't safe. This shouldn't have happened. Right? It really blocks you. Right?
• 50:40
  So much of grief healing is an acceptance piece. Right. And it's really hard when there's a trauma involved to accept that something happened in the way it happened and you weren't expecting it or it shouldn't have happened in that way. So And
• 50:52
  Melissa Shere Beek: I think what both of you said going through it. Because working through it and that instead of avoiding it. Because when we talk about grief coming in waves and things like that, there's little moments and big moments. So it can be like holidays, like big times when you get together and you're missing someone, or it can be just a song that you hear. But if you're in the moment, I think the further away you get from that loss and this is my experience further away you get from that loss, you can kind of say, Okay.
• 51:25
  I've had that moment. I've recognized it. I accept the loss. I'm going to move forward with this knowledge. Maybe it was a visit, maybe it was whatever you want to describe it, but that you can process it and still move forward and just have that balance when it's big or little.
• 51:41
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah. Learning to surf it. Yeah. Right? Surf that's
• 51:44
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: great. That's exactly Learning
• 51:46
  Melissa Shere Beek: to surfing.
• 51:47
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: But when there's a trauma, you're not surfing. You're drowning.
• 51:49
  Melissa Shere Beek: No.
• 51:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah. So You're
• 51:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: struggling to get up above the ward of water. Excuse me.
• 51:54
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So I think that's a tricky thing. One of the things with the type of therapy that I enjoy doing art therapy is that there is a built in mechanism when you're moving your eyes from side to side, these bilateral movements with your eyes, it's integrating the right and left hemisphere of your brain that helps you process the memories and release the emotional charge, but it also really helps heal your nervous system. So I and I'm sure Andrea's had the same experience. A lot of times people do not come to talk to us about trauma because they are so scared
• 52:25
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right.
• 52:25
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: That it is going to be so upsetting when they finally go in and we let them know we're gonna be you're gonna be telling the details of the trauma. And and so, like, wanting everyone to know that no matter what type of trauma therapy is out there, there are safeguards.
• 52:38
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. You have a safe space for them.
• 52:40
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: For sure. And we know, like Andrew said, there's a softness to it. Right. We're protecting them. We're utilizing these other interventions to make sure that they're not re traumatizing themselves and feeling the emotions.
• 52:52
  But the emotions are trapped. They're frozen inside our body, and all feelings wanna be felt. They all wanna be released.
• 52:58
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 52:59
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So having this opportunity to finally feel your feelings and release them and move forward and move through it, like you said Right. Right. I think it's the goal. But that can be really scary, but I want people to know, as scary as it is, we do our best to make it not so scary.
• 53:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yeah. The other thing about trauma therapy is I don't want the impression to be that if you go if you have a trauma, it's impacting your life. You're fighting against yourself because you don't really wanna talk about it. And you're like, I'm gonna find myself a trauma therapist. That you are gonna walk in from the waiting room.
• 53:28
  And from the minute the session starts until it ends, you're talking about trauma. Absolutely not.
• 53:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 53:35
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: It kinda looks like, and I'm big with analogies, as an Oreo cookie.
• 53:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: Mhmm.
• 53:39
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So the first chocolate wafer is the kind of walking in. How was your week? Mhmm. Exchanging pleasantries, Talking about things that went on.
• 53:47
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. The small talk.
• 53:48
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: The small talk. Right? And then the second wafer is kind of the wrapping up. What's going on next week? What are you doing when you leave here?
• 53:57
  What do you you know, do you have any dinner plans? All of that kind of stuff. The middle, which is the the
• 54:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: The good mushy part.
• 54:04
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Good mushy part sometimes is a thin Yeah. Stuffed Oreo and sometimes a double Sorry. Stuffed
• 54:10
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right? I like cookies.
• 54:11
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right? And so we all love a cookie analogy. Right? And so really the beginning of trauma therapy Right. Or if there's any activating things going on that are unrelated to the trauma, but like, you're just not in the mood to do a deep dive into your trauma.
• 54:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. And who
• 54:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: would who would be signing up for that
• 54:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 54:31
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Is a very thin part of the filling of the Oreo.
• 54:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: Got
• 54:34
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: it. And so it's all a very fluid Mhmm. Control thing. And I will have people come in because that's the language I use. And they'll be like, there's no filling today.
• 54:43
  We're just doing wafers. And I'm like, okay. Cool. Yeah. But I don't let them do that that long because then that's avoidance.
• 54:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 54:50
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And so there's a balance. But I think
• 54:53
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: a lot
• 54:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: of think you need to know your clients and know what they need and understand them. You two are exceptional.
• 54:58
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So
• 54:58
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Between and within sessions.
• 54:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Sure.
• 55:01
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So So
• 55:02
  Melissa Shere Beek: how do you make sure well, first of all, I'm so impressed that we've got these many modalities and so much more information and so much more science based stuff because you said art therapy, which is what I used to do with children thirty plus some odd years ago, I'm thinking, My God, we never had the kind of resources and information and things that you're doing. What you're doing is spectacular. It's amazing. It makes me want to get back into it. But how do we make sure that these traumas don't define them?
• 55:31
  Are these modalities that just happen in there? Are they building the tools to take it with them forward?
• 55:38
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So it's definitely a skill building, tool building type of therapy. We spend an inordinate amount of time on coping skills.
• 55:46
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 55:47
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And the good news is it's really going back to giving power to the client. And so really saying
• 55:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: Not the event.
• 55:56
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: You don't need to this is something that happened to you. This is not you. Got it. You are not a someone who is a traumatized individual. You are someone who has experienced trauma.
• 56:09
  Right. And has had symptoms. Right. And you know how to treat them.
• 56:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. You're not walking around with a message board that says, I am this. Exactly not.
• 56:18
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And how would you like to file it away Yeah. Now? Right? Yes. So really being conscious.
• 56:23
  How do I wanna feel about it? And how do I want this trauma to shape me or not to shape me going forward? There's an intervention in accelerated resolution therapy, and it's called the New Perspective Store. And you take your client to the New Perspective Store. And and you really help them now take ownership of that story.
• 56:43
  And it's really empowering in saying, what is the perspective now I wanna take? Right. You know, when I look back at this thing that happened to me. And so I think for sure, anyone who's doing trauma therapy, they would probably say that there's a big part of empower empowerment. Like, want our clients to leave empowered.
• 56:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 57:00
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And if that's how they leave the session, we did our job. Right.
• 57:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: Is it critical for loved ones to know what what's critical for loved ones to know in order to be supportive and helping? Because they see you x amount of times a week or however often they go, but they're going home. So how can loved ones assist?
• 57:18
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So the biggest thing I say to loved ones is open the door. Mhmm. They may not walk through it. Let them know if they wanna talk about what happened in session, if they wanna, you know, if they wanna share what happened in their session, if they wanna share insights, that that is that they have agency
• 57:36
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 57:36
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Over that. And so to really just make statements, especially early on, like, I'm so proud of you Right. That you're engaging in this therapy. It is yours. Right.
• 57:47
  I certainly am here if you wanna talk to me about it.
• 57:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 57:50
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But also, I respect if you don't.
• 57:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Got it.
• 57:53
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: One of the not required, but one of the components of trauma focused CBT, which is really special and challenging, is once the child has that trauma narrative written, we like to, with the child's permission, share it with the parent.
• 58:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Got it.
• 58:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And the way we do it is we share it with the parent without the child there first. Because we wanna have the parent
• 58:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: make sure the parents emotions physical reaction don't traumatize the And child
• 58:24
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: we we wanna give that parent the
• 58:27
  Melissa Shere Beek: Time to process.
• 58:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: To process it however it's gonna naturally come out. And then to talk about how how they would like to show up for their child and what they need from the therapist to help them show up like that. Sometimes we have them hold things. Sometimes we have them sit on their hands. Sometimes whatever it is.
• 58:49
  And then we will have the child if they wanna do it like that. Remember, everything is up to the
• 58:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: child. Yeah.
• 58:55
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Or the adult because we do this with adults too. Share it with the parent. A lot of times and that's why I said it's not a required component. A lot of times, it's too hard.
• 59:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 59:07
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But at some point, because the trauma narrative will be theirs, they can leave with it. They can share it when they're older.
• 59:13
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 59:14
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But a lot of times, we do something called a gestalt exercise, which you probably remember
• 59:19
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah.
• 59:19
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yeah. Where we will have them tell it to a teddy bear or tell it to an empty chair or something like that. So they still get the benefit of sharing it. It takes away some of the shame.
• 59:29
  Melissa Shere Beek: Expressing it.
• 59:29
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But they don't have to worry. There's a lot of really sweet kids who are so protective over their parent that they don't wanna engage in that. And that's okay too. But to answer your question, it's really just continuing to let the traumatized person have agency and have power. So if Follow they their wanna lead share
• 59:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: and be a listener.
• 59:51
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Follow their lead and be a listener. Yeah. And then seek their own therapy if if the child or, you know, person is sharing too much and it's becoming traumatic to hear it.
• 1:00:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:00:03
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Figuring out ways to not shut it down, but also take care of themselves.
• 1:00:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Right. Okay. So we live in really uncertain times. And we're inundated daily Mhmm.
• 1:00:16
  With so many traumatic events, so many aggressive images from the news, from games, from movies, social media. Are we becoming desensitized to all of this because we're so exposed?
• 1:00:32
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I would say we're not becoming desensitized to it, but that we are becoming overloaded by it.
• 1:00:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: No. A 100% with that.
• 1:00:40
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah. And then when we are overloaded, we tend to dissociate. Right? Which is the body's natural way of saying this is too much. Right.
• 1:00:49
  I'm going to just shut down.
• 1:00:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right? So it looks a little bit like desensitization, but I think it's
• 1:00:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: more More avoidance?
• 1:00:56
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Or what? Or dissociation? Yeah. Which is the body's natural way of protecting you. Yeah.
• 1:01:02
  Which is also not healthy. Right. Right? We can still be traumatized if we're in a dissociated state of state. Right.
• 1:01:09
  So yes, I think probably some people might be desensitized to it. But I think we dig down a little deeper. We're profoundly vulnerable as human beings. Yeah. I think it would be really hard to be really desensitized to something.
• 1:01:24
  Think it's more Right. Overloaded. You shut down. You dissociate. You maybe create a belief system that I'm not gonna let anything bother me.
• 1:01:32
  I'm not gonna let anything Right. You know, I don't care about anything. But really, they do.
• 1:01:36
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And I and I think, again, I keep throwing around the word word agency.
• 1:01:40
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Mhmm.
• 1:01:41
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But I think we really do have agency as humans. And certainly, what I always recommend to to my clients, whether they are trauma clients or just regular clients Right. Trying to get through life. Right. Right?
• 1:01:55
  Is take your own emotional pulse. So before you turn on the news Right. Check-in with yourself and be like
• 1:02:02
  Melissa Shere Beek: Don't when you're a
• 1:02:02
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: mind at this moment. Right. Right. So I always give kinda like this thing. So if you are if your nervous system is kind of activated and you're here
• 1:02:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Don't put it on the TV.
• 1:02:13
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And and here means panic, anxiety, depression. Don't go turn something on. Or if you feel like, oh, wow. I'm about to be in a room with people who don't share my political beliefs or whatever it is. But you have to go.
• 1:02:29
  Right. Do something
• 1:02:31
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:02:31
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: To calm your nervous system. So you bring it down a bit. Right. So even if you get activated, you're still not hitting
• 1:02:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: You're not this at that peak.
• 1:02:38
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Threshold.
• 1:02:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:02:39
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: But really, I think there are things we can do to take care of ourselves. Don't go on social media. Don't engage with people who maybe you know
• 1:02:49
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:02:50
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: What their narrative is and it's not aligned with your value system for the moment.
• 1:02:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: Know yourself.
• 1:02:55
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And know yourself and where you're at and what shoes you're standing in for that moment that day. And Yeah. Just take care of yourself.
• 1:03:02
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. I
• 1:03:03
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And I think there's a lot of discernment that goes through that, and especially as when we're in the helping profession, whether you're first line responders or
• 1:03:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. So that was my next question.
• 1:03:14
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So I mean, right. There's something called vicarious trauma. Okay. So that's what I wanna know. I I was thinking like, am I desensitized from hearing so many difficult stories?
• 1:03:25
  Right. And I don't know that I am desensitized from hearing these stories. But one thing that I do and I recommend that anyone do is is this discernment of really recognizing and letting my nervous system know that is not mine. So if I'm watching the news or watching a traumatic I documentary
• 1:03:40
  Melissa Shere Beek: don't have to care
• 1:03:41
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: about that is not mine. And when I let my nervous system know that, I can almost feel like, oh, okay. Hold on. Same thing with our clients. Lot of times, we hear some very traumatic, upsetting events happening to people that are very, very vulnerable.
• 1:03:56
  Right. And we have to let our brain know, even though I'm feeling this emotion right now, it's
• 1:03:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: not Right. Right.
• 1:04:01
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And and that is difficult to do. But I Right. Even like doing a little check-in. Like, I heard this doctor speak once, and he said that every time before he walks into the the patient's room, he touches the door and says, whatever's in here is not mine. And then when he leaves, he touches the door again and says, I'm leaving whatever I just experienced And in he's just letting his nervous system know
• 1:04:23
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:04:23
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: We're not taking this home with us.
• 1:04:25
  Melissa Shere Beek: I used to have a professor who say, gunny sack it.
• 1:04:27
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Mhmm.
• 1:04:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: Like, you know, just drop it off Oh. Mhmm. In a backpack and leave it. And that's and you could pick it up when you go into the book. That's the same thing.
• 1:04:34
  I love that. Yeah. Just touching the door. It's sort of like a physical
• 1:04:37
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 1:04:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: Mental.
• 1:04:38
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And I think the thing that I do, because again, we hear a lot of things and we are it is an honor and
• 1:04:45
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: a
• 1:04:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: privilege to sit in the room and and to hear those things, is to remind myself and it's it's what helps me is while I couldn't prevent this from happening because this is how they're showing up, I feel really good and really confident in the role I get to play Right. In
• 1:05:02
  Melissa Shere Beek: Helping them. This. Right.
• 1:05:03
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And so that and I would say first responders, if we think of traditional, you know, firefighters and
• 1:05:08
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right.
• 1:05:09
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: People like that, medical professed professionals, same thing. Whatever their skill set is that they have refined and they are so good at
• 1:05:17
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:05:18
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Is what moves the needle into whatever type of healing, emotional, physical. Okay. And that's what we lean into.
• 1:05:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: So that's what's gonna be one of my next questions when we have health care professionals or first responders. That's sort of like a secondary traumatic experience. So how do we help them cope with that?
• 1:05:36
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: There are
• 1:05:36
  Melissa Shere Beek: many Even though it's not theirs, they're actually in the thick of it during a traumatic event. So they're still having some experience even though it might be secondhand.
• 1:05:44
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Right. There are many trauma institutes nowadays and research that's really focusing on how do we create trauma informed systems Mhmm. For our health care workers Right. For police officers, for the jails
• 1:05:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: Fire department.
• 1:05:58
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Teachers. And how do we provide them with this knowledge that we're talking about today and the coping skills ahead of time?
• 1:06:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:06:05
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And then as well as how do we help them have first aid? So there's emotional first aid. Right? We obviously have physical first aid.
• 1:06:10
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:06:11
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And everyone who's trained in that area knows. But do they know emotional first aid? Right. And that could mean having that discernment of saying, you know, that's not mine. Focusing more on not feeling helpless and saying how I'm helping them.
• 1:06:23
  Right. But also deep diaphragmatic breathing. That they're really making sure their nervous system is regulated even though Right. They're in this scary situation. I do something called tapping, which Sure.
• 1:06:36
  Is you tap on different acupressure points on your body, and you're really sending a message to your amygdala that you are safe. Right. And so, we teach first responders all the time how to do tapping. How do they quickly go to the bathroom in situations where they really feel the adrenaline flowing through their body, their heart rate is accelerating, and they need to quickly tell the amygdala to shut off. Right.
• 1:06:57
  You know, how can they do that? And I think these trauma informed systems that they are really focusing more on and making sure that there is more sensitivity for our healthcare workers, etcetera, that they're teaching them more and more of those skills.
• 1:07:10
  Melissa Shere Beek: Good.
• 1:07:11
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So they're going in there already feeling more resilient and stronger to be able to handle Right. All of the trauma that they're faced with.
• 1:07:16
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: It also goes back to social support, you know. Right. The firefighters That's sort
• 1:07:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: of family in and of itself.
• 1:07:22
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Firefighters and their family are South Miami Psychology Group are family. I'm even thinking, I don't know who's a Grey's Anatomy fan still. Yeah. But in the beginning, when Meredith and Christina were doing all these things and then Yes. They would dance it Yeah.
• 1:07:35
  You know? And so
• 1:07:36
  Melissa Shere Beek: That's what we do here.
• 1:07:36
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Kind having having your support system with a group of people who do what you do and know what you know. Right. And that's one of the added blessings that we have in our practice, which is after you have a really hard session, just looking around the corner to see who's outside of session Right. That you can pull in and not give, of course, anything confidential or But identifying just be like, I just had a really heavy session. Can I can you just sit with me?
• 1:08:04
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah.
• 1:08:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: I was gonna ask you how you cope. But before we get to ask you how you cope, why is it important to deal with trauma?
• 1:08:12
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I think many of the reasons we just said that Right. It's not going to go away. Right. And whatever our natural instinct is push it away Mhmm. It is gonna come up and likely in ways and at times that are not convenient.
• 1:08:27
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. And so Unexpected.
• 1:08:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: What what a better way than to have control and say this is the time. Right. And I could feel safe doing it so that I can actually put it in a box, put a nice bow on it, put it up in my closet, and take it down when I want to. Right. Not when it just decides to explode.
• 1:08:46
  Right.
• 1:08:47
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I think going back to the definition of trauma is something that has a long lasting impact on your nervous system and your experience of safety in this world. If you are chronically in survival mode because that trauma is still a live wire within you, even if you're not thinking about it all the time. Right. You know, it's interesting they say the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that really protects us in difficult situations, but it's in charge of the fight or flight response. It doesn't have a timestamp.
• 1:09:14
  Right. So it doesn't really know that this thing that happened to you back then isn't still happening to Right. So really making sure that we're processing it. But if we're in survival mode all the time, what we know is then you're gonna start to most likely develop some physical issues. Sure.
• 1:09:30
  Because the body cannot handle Right. Being in survival mode. And the other thing that we know is if you're in survival mode all the time, because part of your alarm bells are constantly going, you're hyper vigilant, scared that something bad's gonna happen to you again, that it pulls the blood flow and the energy from your prefrontal cortex, which is your thinking brain.
• 1:09:48
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:09:48
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So then you're gonna just not be able to think clearly. You're gonna have poor decision making possibly, poor impulse control, poor planning. And after time so even though you might be okay with the thing that happened too, if we really look deeper, you are gonna see that there's gonna be changes in the brain Right. Where you're not able to really function to your highest potential.
• 1:10:08
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right.
• 1:10:08
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And that your body might start to shut down in other ways because your body is constantly in this state of fight or flight.
• 1:10:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:10:15
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So even if you've made peace with it, you always wanna look and see, okay, but let me really look at it holistically, and let me check. Yes. How am I doing with my mind? How's my thinking? How's my focus?
• 1:10:25
  How's my learning? How's my last physical checkup? How's my blood work doing? Yeah. Sure.
• 1:10:30
  Then we can kinda say, okay, maybe you're good.
• 1:10:32
  Melissa Shere Beek: Maybe you're okay. Yeah. But Okay. Got it. Do you guys ever get overwhelmed by the work?
• 1:10:36
  I know you said you look around the corner and check-in with each other, but do you ever get overwhelmed with the work that
• 1:10:41
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: you do? Absolutely. Yeah. Because we're human.
• 1:10:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:10:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And and again, what are our protective factors? Making sure that that they're online.
• 1:10:52
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:10:54
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Having a bestie, ie,
• 1:10:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: who knows I was just what gonna say. Mean, that's a built
• 1:10:57
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: in right there. Who knows what you're going through. But absolutely, and and really checking in and saying, am I okay? Am I showing up enough for my clients? And if not, really taking time to make sure that that we can regulate ourselves as
• 1:11:15
  Melissa Shere Beek: well. We process.
• 1:11:15
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And practice what we preach. Right?
• 1:11:17
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Sure.
• 1:11:18
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: So all the coping skills we are sharing and teaching.
• 1:11:22
  Melissa Shere Beek: You do so. Like that.
• 1:11:24
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And that makes us more human. And we can say, you know what? I don't love this one, but I like this one. I'm curious to hear which one you like better.
• 1:11:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: Is there something is there something that you do to help you handle the stress of your profession? Like you said, like on Grey's Dance It Out. But is there like something that you guys like go to? Like?
• 1:11:38
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: We love to go to the gym together.
• 1:11:40
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Okay. Good.
• 1:11:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: That's great.
• 1:11:42
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yes. We go to the gym and we love coffee and matcha and
• 1:11:45
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, these are all great.
• 1:11:46
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: All kinds of, like we'll text each other and be like, I kinda need a treat. Do you need
• 1:11:50
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: a treat?
• 1:11:51
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, yeah. We'll have cookies after.
• 1:11:53
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yes. Perfect.
• 1:11:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. So what's the most important takeaway?
• 1:12:00
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I would say that there are some really amazing things that you can do to help yourself if you have had some adverse events. Right. And help the people in your lives, and that it doesn't have to be scary. And that you deserve to kind of let it see the light of day and not push it down because you're worth it.
• 1:12:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. Live a full life.
• 1:12:23
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Mhmm.
• 1:12:23
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And remember that we are wired for healing.
• 1:12:25
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:12:26
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: So we are all capable. We see it time and time again, really witnessing the human spirit and how resilient and strong we really are.
• 1:12:35
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:12:35
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And kind of knowing that ahead of time. Right? And then we're talking about, like, creating trauma resilient children by making sure that children believe in themselves and have the But strength and have their coping also, like, even as a parent, knowing that my child's gonna go through difficult things, But they can also handle it. And there's therapies out there. There's support groups that Oh, we yeah.
• 1:12:56
  Can put
• 1:12:56
  Melissa Shere Beek: together together. That's community.
• 1:12:59
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And what Andrea talked about before, I think would be also a beautiful thing to end on, which is that post traumatic growth. Yeah. That a lot of times, we really do not know how strong and capable and amazing our human spirit is
• 1:13:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:13:12
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Until we have been challenged. Yeah.
• 1:13:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: That's true. I think that's true. Post traumatic growth. Yep. Yes.
• 1:13:18
  Oh my gosh. Thank you guys so much. This was so informative, so educational, so amazing. I I love all these new modalities. I've learned so much.
• 1:13:28
  I mean, I'm just I'm so happy you're out there.
• 1:13:30
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yes.
• 1:13:31
  Melissa Shere Beek: You're amazing women and doctors. I'm just yeah. Thank you for having
• 1:13:35
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Thank you for having us.
• 1:13:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: So before we end, I do a little thing. I hope you're game for it called Quickie Questions.
• 1:13:42
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Okay.
• 1:13:42
  Melissa Shere Beek: You ready?
• 1:13:43
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yeah. Okay. Do
• 1:13:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: you have a favorite book?
• 1:13:48
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Oh, my goodness. There's so many books I love. Let me think.
• 1:13:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: Maybe even a genre.
• 1:13:54
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I mean, this is a favorite book I just read was The Correspondent. Oh, I'm gonna start that. Okay.
• 1:14:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: It's on my to my to be read.
• 1:14:02
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Oh, my gosh. And then Remarkably Bright Creatures.
• 1:14:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: I love that.
• 1:14:08
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: It's like beyond.
• 1:14:10
  Melissa Shere Beek: I love it. But did you listen to it on Audible or did you read it?
• 1:14:14
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I don't remember because I so the correspondent, I listened to. Uh-huh. Because you have to
• 1:14:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: listen Remarkably to Bright
• 1:14:21
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Creatures, I wanna say I wanna say I read it.
• 1:14:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. Because I listened to it with Mark Urie Okay. From Ugly Betty and also in Shrinking.
• 1:14:29
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yes.
• 1:14:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: And just the way that he spoke as the octopus. I mean, it was it was a I was taking long trips, so that's why I did it in an Audubon. I thought it was brilliant because the way he delivered it. So okay. Sorry.
• 1:14:43
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I I'm excited about that book. I love that book so good.
• 1:14:47
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: You know, I don't really listen to fiction or read fiction. I love memoirs. But I couldn't even tell you right now.
• 1:14:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: Which one?
• 1:14:55
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Which one?
• 1:14:56
  Melissa Shere Beek: You'll think about it On the Car Ride Home.
• 1:14:57
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Definitely I mean, probably just already since January, I've probably listened to five memoirs because I love them so much. Yeah.
• 1:15:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: I love that.
• 1:15:04
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: If you
• 1:15:05
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: have any recommendations, I'm always looking
• 1:15:06
  Melissa Shere Beek: I for will a new give you a bunch after. Okay. But they're oldies, but they're good.
• 1:15:10
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah.
• 1:15:10
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. Good. Alright. What did you learn or wait. What did I say?
• 1:15:16
  I can't even read my writing. Wait. I need my glasses on this one. Okay. What did you learn or experience that changed the way you see the world?
• 1:15:28
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Today. Today. Today?
• 1:15:30
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Or any I
• 1:15:33
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: think having children.
• 1:15:34
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh,
• 1:15:35
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: that'll change. And having teenagers.
• 1:15:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, yeah.
• 1:15:37
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: And I thought they had changed the way I see the world. But now having two teenagers Yeah. Now
• 1:15:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: That'll definitely change.
• 1:15:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: What am I gonna say? I'm ripping off yours.
• 1:15:49
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. I
• 1:15:49
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: think just just having children and having been in this field before Yeah. I had children and as a child psychologist and thinking I knew all of these parenting things to do and all these things to do in And then being like, how do they not come with manuals?
• 1:16:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: This is
• 1:16:07
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: so complicated. And And it changes constantly. And
• 1:16:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: You have to be on your toes. Totally. Yeah. So yep. That's so funny.
• 1:16:16
  Okay. Because you're besties
• 1:16:18
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Mhmm.
• 1:16:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: What quality do you look for in a friend?
• 1:16:24
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Someone I can rely on. Mhmm. Someone who, when I'm not feeling my best, can take over for me.
• 1:16:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:16:36
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Someone who's willing to drop everything if there's something big going on, either positive or heartbreaking.
• 1:16:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 1:16:45
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: And just someone who knows you. Yeah. We, over the years, because we have a friendship and a partnership, we literally finish each other's sentences. And it's funny. We'll be interviewing someone, and we don't even have to check-in with each other Right.
• 1:17:02
  Before we recognize whether we're going forward to the next step or not. Know the dialogue between each We know the body language. We know all of that stuff. So just someone who knows you and you can be yourself with and not have to Right. Put on the Be authentic.
• 1:17:16
  Any mask.
• 1:17:17
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I think what's really helpful as we're aging and our mind is not as sharp as it used to be. We kinda share our brains.
• 1:17:24
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right. That's okay.
• 1:17:25
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: That's good. Because when I can't think of something or, you know, I forgot something
• 1:17:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: You have a backup brain.
• 1:17:29
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Right. I'll be like, wait, did we do this yet?
• 1:17:32
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I also think having a best friend who's nonjudgmental Yeah. I would say is probably the number one thing. I mean, I think everyone looks for that in life. Yeah. And there's something so freeing about that.
• 1:17:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sure. Someone who accepts you as you are. Yeah. You're authentic you can be your authentic self with. Yeah.
• 1:17:47
  I think that's beautiful. Okay. Last question. Last time you laughed.
• 1:17:53
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I mean, we just laughed a lot.
• 1:17:54
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: No. No. No. I'm We just laughed a lot today. Yes.
• 1:17:56
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, I meant like like belly laugh. Like I mean, yeah, you were laughing today, but anything that stuck out like
• 1:18:02
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: belly laugh. I don't know.
• 1:18:05
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: I'm thinking about if my husband's listening, he would want me to say, last time he told a really funny joke because he thinks he's a comedian. But he's not. Yeah.
• 1:18:16
  Melissa Shere Beek: Sorry, husband.
• 1:18:17
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: I would actually say nobody makes me laugh more than my father-in-law. Oh. I don't know. I can't even think of a particular instance. Yeah.
• 1:18:24
  But I will literally because I you know, we have a serious job.
• 1:18:28
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Yeah.
• 1:18:28
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: We do. We Summer and I are literally twenty four seven SMPG. Like, when we people are like, tell us about your kids. We're like, we have all we have five kids between us.
• 1:18:39
  Dr. Summer Sullivan: Love
• 1:18:39
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: it. But SMPG is our baby. Right. It's always a baby.
• 1:18:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah.
• 1:18:44
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: We're always working on it. So I'm pretty serious. I see my my in laws every Thursday night. And my father-in-law, like, makes me laugh to the point of tears.
• 1:18:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, I love that. I don't even
• 1:18:54
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: know what it is. Yeah. That's And he'll just look at me. He'll be like, I love making you laugh. And I'm like, no one can make me laugh like you are.
• 1:19:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: What a wonderful
• 1:19:01
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: release though. It is. That's amazing. But I can't even tell you what the topic was. It's just ridiculous stuff.
• 1:19:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: That's a good one. One. That's a great one. Well, thank you. Yes.
• 1:19:11
  Thank you again.
• 1:19:12
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: This was fabulous. Yes.
• 1:19:13
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. We're gonna give book recs and cookies afterwards.
• 1:19:15
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: Sounds good.
• 1:19:16
  Melissa Shere Beek: To our listeners, thank you so much. So grateful you're here. Keep listening. Keep learning. Keep laughing.
• 1:19:22
  Keep up with Beek on being. Follow Beek on being on Instagram for the latest to share thoughts, ideas, suggestions, or nominated guest, DM us. Listen to Beek on being wherever you get your podcasts. All episodes are automatically transcribed. A big shout out and a huge thank you to Steven Chen at penthouse studios.
• 1:19:39
  Woo hoo. Beek on being was recorded at penthouse studios and is a proud member of the penthouse podcast network. We good? Thank you, guys. This was amazing.
• 1:19:53
  Dr. Andrea Loeb: That was fun.