Latest / Stuff You Should Know / SYSK Selects: Is Stockholm Syndrome real?

Transcript

SYSK Selects: Is Stockholm Syndrome real? · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me Josh and this Saturday for s
0:04
Speaker 1: Y s K selects. I chose is Stockholm Syndrome. Real
0:09
Speaker 1: originally ran in November of two thousand and twelve, and
0:12
Speaker 1: it's got it all, mostly kidnapping, but it's some other
0:15
Speaker 1: stuff as well. It's just one of my all time
0:18
Speaker 1: favorite episodes. So check it out. Hope you enjoy it.
0:25
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works
0:28
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
0:38
Speaker 1: with me as always Charles W Chuck Bryant, and I'm
0:42
Speaker 1: still sick. I'm sorry about that. Like this is this
0:45
Speaker 1: is actually me with my nose blowed. I think at
0:48
Speaker 1: this point we could recommend to listeners who typically listen
0:52
Speaker 1: with earbuds or headphones, maybe get this woner, try just
0:56
Speaker 1: in your car speakers. That's probably a good idea. Yeah,
1:00
Speaker 1: Jerry was like, dude, have you heard this you headphones?
1:03
Speaker 1: Did you listen to it? No? Not yet, But we
1:06
Speaker 1: don't wear headphones here, which is odd for audio recording. Yeah,
1:11
Speaker 1: a lot of people like hearing headphones right in there here.
1:13
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't either. We're told we're
1:16
Speaker 1: the only ones here, who don't do that? Hey, we're tazed.
1:19
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a secret. Yeah, um, chuckers, Yes, have you
1:25
Speaker 1: ever been kidnapped? Uh? Not in a in the strictest
1:30
Speaker 1: of senses. I have been kidnapped in the fun church
1:33
Speaker 1: youth group. Way, oh for like diabetes or something like
1:37
Speaker 1: when someone comes back and kidnaps you for a cause,
1:40
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, which is an odd thing to do.
1:42
Speaker 1: I always felt kind of left out because no one
1:44
Speaker 1: ever kidnapped me for any cause. Oh yeah, yeah, Well
1:48
Speaker 1: maybe I'll do that one day, just get the crap
1:51
Speaker 1: out of you. Break in your house with ski mask
1:54
Speaker 1: on duct tape. Um, I probably recognize you by your clothes.
1:58
Speaker 1: You can wear a ski mask and be like, what
2:00
Speaker 1: do I know that kidnapper? I know that beef stew smell. Anyway, Um,
2:08
Speaker 1: it's a good thing that you were kidnapped just for
2:10
Speaker 1: a cause, because there's a very low likelihood that you
2:13
Speaker 1: would have suffered from what's known as Stockholm syndrome from
2:16
Speaker 1: being held uh basically ransom until you raised X number
2:20
Speaker 1: of dollars for Juvenile Diabetes Foundation. Um. There are a
2:26
Speaker 1: lot of cases, a surprising amount of cases, even in
2:29
Speaker 1: the statistics that are used to poo poo the concept
2:33
Speaker 1: of Stockholm syndrome or its prevalence. It's still a surprising
2:37
Speaker 1: amount of cases of people who are abducted. Um, people
2:41
Speaker 1: who are held in like slave as slaves or hostages. Yeah,
2:45
Speaker 1: it's not like a ransom deal. It's just I'm gonna
2:48
Speaker 1: take you now and put you in my seller for
2:49
Speaker 1: fifteen years. That's that. Depending it depends on how you
2:53
Speaker 1: look at it. But yeah, and it depends on the
2:55
Speaker 1: factors involved. But there there is a weird phenomenon that
3:00
Speaker 1: we do not yet have fully pinned down yet. Even
3:03
Speaker 1: that toy dinosaur can tell you what it is. And
3:06
Speaker 1: it's called Stockholm syndrome. That's right. Uh, And it's got
3:09
Speaker 1: a pretty it's it's it's a crazy thing because it's
3:13
Speaker 1: a psychological disorder that almost no one ever will endure. Um,
3:19
Speaker 1: the press loves it, so they talk about it all
3:21
Speaker 1: the time, and it has an awesome backstory, so basically
3:24
Speaker 1: has everything there for everyone to just overestimate the prevalence
3:29
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I think the press loves it because
3:32
Speaker 1: it's a has the like the name, and like you said,
3:35
Speaker 1: the cool backstory. But I don't agree. But to the press,
3:40
Speaker 1: I think they think it's just like, how can anyone
3:42
Speaker 1: ever feel for their captor? It's so remarkable that this happens.
3:46
Speaker 1: But when I read this article, I'm kind of like
3:48
Speaker 1: I get it a little bit in some cases, and
3:50
Speaker 1: and like, especially in this day and age, after so
3:53
Speaker 1: many incidents of it being reported and covered in like
3:56
Speaker 1: US and people and time and whatever, um, it's it
4:01
Speaker 1: almost comes off as disingenuous. Where the press is the
4:03
Speaker 1: tabloid press particular, is like, how could how could this person? Yeah,
4:07
Speaker 1: you know, identificitely sensational and not like empathetic, it seems like.
4:12
Speaker 1: But that's the point though. I mean, I guess we
4:14
Speaker 1: should probably define what Stockholm syndrome is for that one
4:17
Speaker 1: person who doesn't know. Yeah, it's well, when you're held
4:21
Speaker 1: captive for some period of time and you end up um,
4:24
Speaker 1: and it's actually not always being held captive because they
4:27
Speaker 1: said in battered spouse cases or slave master relationship, um,
4:32
Speaker 1: you end up feeling empathy and identifying somewhat with your captor. Yeah,
4:36
Speaker 1: it's destructive culture. Another one. Uh, And I would advise
4:40
Speaker 1: everybody to go listen to the Brainwashing episode and if
4:42
Speaker 1: you've already heard it a lot of this stuff is
4:44
Speaker 1: gonna sound kind of familiar because the two share a
4:46
Speaker 1: lot of common traits. UM, there are some some specific
4:53
Speaker 1: traits to Stockholm syndrome, some factors that that psychology generally
4:57
Speaker 1: agrees have to be present for somebody to develop Stockholm syndrome. UM.
5:03
Speaker 1: But let's talk about where this came from. You wanted
5:06
Speaker 1: to sure the first the seventy three. I wonder what
5:08
Speaker 1: they called it before this. UM. I saw two other
5:11
Speaker 1: names for it, but I don't know if they predated
5:13
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome. Terror bonding and trauma bonding. Terror binding tuating
5:22
Speaker 1: new kind of phrase. It seems like a traumatic bonding
5:25
Speaker 1: was the other one. That's the no frills, like, we're
5:27
Speaker 1: not sensationalizing here. This is the real deal. Well, it
5:32
Speaker 1: came from a bank robbery in nineteen seventy three in Stockholm, Sweden.
5:38
Speaker 1: And this article actually has it wrong. It's his two
5:41
Speaker 1: men entered the bank. There's actually just one dude, Wilson
5:44
Speaker 1: entered the bank. Uh, cops showed up for this bank robbery.
5:48
Speaker 1: Shootout happens in there, some cops. He takes some hostages,
5:52
Speaker 1: and then he demands that his buddy Olafson, who I
5:56
Speaker 1: think just got out of jail. No, he was in jail.
5:58
Speaker 1: I thought he was in jail, and they freed him
6:00
Speaker 1: and sent him to this bank, and I guess was like,
6:04
Speaker 1: thanks buddy, here's a gun. Yeah, a hostage standoff. And
6:10
Speaker 1: he was kind of a career criminal, so I doubt
6:12
Speaker 1: if he was like, well, great, now I'm out of
6:13
Speaker 1: I was two months from being let out. Right now
6:16
Speaker 1: here I am holding people hostage. Um, he sort of
6:20
Speaker 1: looked the second guy I thought looked a little bit
6:22
Speaker 1: like koresh Oh really yeah, a little bit, which one
6:25
Speaker 1: Olsen or ericson because okay, oh yeah yeah Olsen, Yeah,
6:31
Speaker 1: Olsen looks kind of like Charlie Manson a little bit.
6:36
Speaker 1: Then again nineteen seventy three, everybody looked like Charlie. So
6:40
Speaker 1: what happens in this case is, um, it's a it's
6:43
Speaker 1: a standoff. There's a hostage situation. And reportedly the hostages
6:49
Speaker 1: ended up showing uh love for the captors and we're
6:53
Speaker 1: sort of against the cops. And one reason I saw
6:56
Speaker 1: a side it was because they felt like the cops
6:58
Speaker 1: were put them in more dranger like with their violent
7:02
Speaker 1: tactics that they thought were coming down upon them. Yeah,
7:05
Speaker 1: so that's what happened. They said, Stockholm syndrome. I wrode
7:08
Speaker 1: this rite up by the guy. Um, a psychologist named
7:11
Speaker 1: Nils Bergerat. He was actually the one of the hostage negotiators,
7:17
Speaker 1: the a liaison for the police to these hostage takers.
7:20
Speaker 1: That credit Bonkin. Is that how you say it? But
7:24
Speaker 1: the bank? Yeah, credit Bonkin? Yeah. Um, So he was
7:28
Speaker 1: there and they actually he's usually credited with coining the
7:31
Speaker 1: term Stockholm syndrome. Um. But he was saying, like, after
7:34
Speaker 1: talking with these guys that they weren't insane, they weren't
7:37
Speaker 1: on drugs. They were like, like you said, career criminals,
7:40
Speaker 1: and every move they made was to like benefit themselves
7:43
Speaker 1: or their situation. It was beneath them to hurt these people,
7:46
Speaker 1: to hurt their hostages. But they loved shooting at cops
7:50
Speaker 1: because they hated cops, and they were not above threatening
7:54
Speaker 1: these hostages lives to the point where the hostages were
7:57
Speaker 1: taking it seriously. But yes, um, it seemed like the
8:00
Speaker 1: police were putting them in danger with these raids. Yeah.
8:04
Speaker 1: What surprised me was how quickly like the only reason
8:07
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome makes sense to me is that when it
8:10
Speaker 1: takes place over like years, Like this was a little
8:12
Speaker 1: weird to me. Okay, here's the thing. There's a great
8:15
Speaker 1: debate over whether and by great debate, the people disagree
8:20
Speaker 1: over whether Stockholm syndrome develops over a short intense period
8:26
Speaker 1: or a long protracted period. So like in the case
8:29
Speaker 1: of say Um Natasha Kemp, push, yeah, let's tell her story.
8:35
Speaker 1: I guess real quick. Okay. She was an Austrian girl
8:38
Speaker 1: who disappeared in the way to school and she was
8:42
Speaker 1: kept in a fifty four square foot seller with sound
8:45
Speaker 1: proof with no windows by Wolfgang uh prick Lapel and
8:52
Speaker 1: told her the doors and windows were booby trapped. You
8:54
Speaker 1: can't escape, um, and they like, how many years was this?
9:00
Speaker 1: She was held for for eight years? Eight years? Sorry,
9:03
Speaker 1: and they were you know, they ended up. You know,
9:06
Speaker 1: she went on a ski vacation with them. Um. Eventually
9:11
Speaker 1: was like let out of the basement during the day,
9:13
Speaker 1: had to go back at night always, and like would
9:15
Speaker 1: go to restaurants occasionally. Uh. And she eventually escaped when
9:20
Speaker 1: um she was vacuum ng and uh he took a
9:24
Speaker 1: phone call when in the other room and she left
9:27
Speaker 1: the vacuum running and bolted, which was pretty smart. And
9:31
Speaker 1: when he found out. She eventually made it to a
9:33
Speaker 1: neighbor's house and I went inside, and this old lady
9:36
Speaker 1: called the cops and she's like, I'm this girl that's
9:39
Speaker 1: been missing all these years. And eventually, Um, he jumped
9:44
Speaker 1: in front of a train when he found out she
9:46
Speaker 1: got out, killed himself. And apparently she cried and like
9:50
Speaker 1: lit candles at the morgue where he was kept, and
9:55
Speaker 1: also denied that she suffered from Stockholm syndrome. Okay, so
9:58
Speaker 1: I can't give you another one. J. C. Lee Duggard.
10:02
Speaker 1: Um remember that much more recent, much more familiar, I'm
10:05
Speaker 1: sure to those of us in the US, especially those
10:07
Speaker 1: of us who pay attention to us weekly. Um. But
10:12
Speaker 1: she was held for eighteen years. She her captor, She
10:17
Speaker 1: assisted her captor with his home business. Captors captors um
10:22
Speaker 1: with their home business, emailed customers, took phone calls from customers,
10:27
Speaker 1: greeted customers at the door by herself. Um. Basically it
10:31
Speaker 1: was a lot like Natasha's story, where like she was
10:34
Speaker 1: like living out in plain sight with these people and
10:38
Speaker 1: like had all these opportunities to like make a make
10:40
Speaker 1: a run for it, and like never did. Um. And
10:43
Speaker 1: he was a kidnapper. He was already serve time for kidnapping. Yeah,
10:47
Speaker 1: I believe so. Um when she was finally freed, she
10:52
Speaker 1: um her I guess her stepfather was explaining it to
10:56
Speaker 1: the press that she really had strong feelings for this guy,
10:59
Speaker 1: and like she thought of this as like a marriage basically,
11:03
Speaker 1: I mean, she was held captive for eighteen years, right.
11:06
Speaker 1: So on the one side, those are two really good
11:10
Speaker 1: examples of Stockholm syndrome to like coming to see your
11:14
Speaker 1: captor as your husband, or to cry and like, you know,
11:18
Speaker 1: light candles at morgue for your captor after he kills himself.
11:22
Speaker 1: But then on the other side, there's like the remember
11:25
Speaker 1: the t w A hijackers. Um, somebody who was freed
11:30
Speaker 1: after that relatively short stand off um said that these were, um,
11:37
Speaker 1: they weren't bad people. Quote, the terrorists weren't bad people.
11:41
Speaker 1: They let me eat, they let me sleep, they gave
11:43
Speaker 1: me my life. And that was a really short, brief,
11:47
Speaker 1: intense encounter. And those are like kind of the different
11:51
Speaker 1: sides of the whole thing. So like, which one if
11:54
Speaker 1: you become a member of your captor's family, is that
11:57
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome or is a slightly differ for netable, if
12:00
Speaker 1: you come to see your captors your savior simply because
12:04
Speaker 1: they're letting you live over like the course of like
12:07
Speaker 1: twenty four hours while they're holding you. Or is that
12:10
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome? Which ones which because we have slightly different
12:14
Speaker 1: things going on and they're both really abnormal psychologically speaking. Agreed,
12:21
Speaker 1: and I think it was the girl in Austria said that, like,
12:25
Speaker 1: on the plus side, I didn't drink or do drugs
12:28
Speaker 1: or smoke, and I didn't hang out with like bad kids.
12:31
Speaker 1: Sounds a seller, so I mean, obviously we're not laughing
12:35
Speaker 1: at her, but it was definitely a unique take on
12:38
Speaker 1: being held captive. And one of the things too, like, uh,
12:44
Speaker 1: I guess we'll eventually get to um Patty Hirst. But
12:48
Speaker 1: in the case of these girls, they were like, you know,
12:51
Speaker 1: the one was ten years old when she was originally kidnapped,
12:55
Speaker 1: So I mean, when you're ten, I think you would
12:59
Speaker 1: be much more acceptible to something like this over the
13:02
Speaker 1: course of like your entire adolescence growing up, is your
13:05
Speaker 1: teenage years like this your you know, it makes sense
13:08
Speaker 1: to me a little bit that you accept it and
13:10
Speaker 1: see these people as your protectors anyway, But that's the
13:14
Speaker 1: common thread. Whether it's a short, brief, intense period or
13:18
Speaker 1: eighteen years of captivity, the common thread is that Stockholm
13:22
Speaker 1: syndrome developing. It is seen as a survival strategy. So
14:01
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about the factors involved. Shall we we
14:03
Speaker 1: shall what traits must be? The three traits are a
14:08
Speaker 1: severely uneven power relationship, which makes sense. The captor is
14:13
Speaker 1: completely in charge of every facet of your life. When
14:16
Speaker 1: you eat, when you sleep, how you sleep, where you sleep,
14:19
Speaker 1: what you eat, what you drink, if you can shower
14:22
Speaker 1: or not, like everything, if you can talk, what whether
14:26
Speaker 1: or not you're like chained to a bed um threat
14:30
Speaker 1: or threat of death or physical injury um, and a
14:34
Speaker 1: lot of times that includes like you know, rape and
14:37
Speaker 1: assault and severe beatings. There's another one like I'll talk
14:41
Speaker 1: about that in the second, but there's there's a disagreement
14:43
Speaker 1: about whether that's can be president or not really. And
14:47
Speaker 1: then finally, self preservation instinct, which is what we were
14:51
Speaker 1: talking about. They believe, like the only way my butts
14:54
Speaker 1: gonna get out of here is if I obey, Yeah, obey,
14:58
Speaker 1: And it's called a healthy ego as this is a
15:01
Speaker 1: self preservation instinct. Like your ego starts to take over
15:05
Speaker 1: and says, okay, um, we need to figure out how
15:07
Speaker 1: to stay alive here. Its solution on the skin right exactly?
15:11
Speaker 1: Or else what? Or else it's the hose again. Uh.
15:16
Speaker 1: And so that ego takes over because all other normal
15:21
Speaker 1: tactics available to any free human being to stay alive,
15:24
Speaker 1: grabbing a gun, calling the police, shouting, um, whatever are
15:31
Speaker 1: stripped from that person. Well. Sure, And in the case
15:34
Speaker 1: of the Austrian girl, she was told things were booby trapped,
15:37
Speaker 1: like windows and doors, and that he said he had
15:39
Speaker 1: a gun on him at all times. And when your
15:41
Speaker 1: tin and you grow up like this, like how are
15:44
Speaker 1: you going to figure this out? You know you're not
15:46
Speaker 1: watching TV, you're obviously not on the internet, Like for
15:49
Speaker 1: all she knew things were booby trapped and she's trying
15:52
Speaker 1: to live. Um. There's two other factors that usually have
15:56
Speaker 1: to be present too, is the prisoner has to believe
16:00
Speaker 1: that escape is impossible, like you were saying booby traps
16:04
Speaker 1: or whatever, um that there there's just no escape, there's
16:07
Speaker 1: no there's no um other thing to focus the mind on,
16:12
Speaker 1: like how how can I dig my way out of here?
16:14
Speaker 1: It's totally focused on the captor being the means of
16:19
Speaker 1: escape or survival um. And then the the prisoner also
16:23
Speaker 1: has to be isolated. So this one kind of like
16:26
Speaker 1: undermines the idea of somebody who's held captive in plain
16:29
Speaker 1: sight for eighteen years developing classic Stockholm syndrome because if
16:35
Speaker 1: you if you were totally isolated from the outside world,
16:40
Speaker 1: other opinions of the captor are sequestered from you. Yeah,
16:46
Speaker 1: so that Lieutenant Denzel Washington out there an inside man,
16:50
Speaker 1: and what he thinks of Clive Owens is not coming through.
16:54
Speaker 1: All you have is your your increasingly deranged mind um
16:59
Speaker 1: to tell you what you think about Clive Owens. You know.
17:04
Speaker 1: I'm gonna add my own here too. I think that
17:06
Speaker 1: part of it has to do with just humans desire
17:10
Speaker 1: to connect with another human. And if all you've got
17:14
Speaker 1: is this one person and it's over the course of
17:16
Speaker 1: eight to eighteen years, that's gonna take over at some
17:20
Speaker 1: point and you're gonna want to connect with this person,
17:22
Speaker 1: you know. I think you may have just hit upon
17:25
Speaker 1: the distinction between the two, the short intense period and
17:30
Speaker 1: the long duration. Yeah, because think about it like you do.
17:34
Speaker 1: If you are just kept apart from everybody else, you
17:37
Speaker 1: do still have that need to connect with pure That's brilliant, Chuck,
17:41
Speaker 1: that may be the most brilliant thing you said yet
17:44
Speaker 1: my dinosaurs clapping. Yeah, it's better than the caveman Milton
17:49
Speaker 1: in Neanderthals a good theory. Um, okay, so we we
17:54
Speaker 1: know all of this stuff that has to be present. Right. Basically,
17:58
Speaker 1: you're a hostage that is totally subject to the whims
18:02
Speaker 1: of your captor. You think you're going to die, Um,
18:06
Speaker 1: you don't think there's any escape. You're sequestered away from
18:09
Speaker 1: other people. Um, and your captor likes to remind you
18:12
Speaker 1: that he or she is in charge. Yes, okay, let's
18:16
Speaker 1: talk about the stages. Well, that is the first stage
18:19
Speaker 1: and I just went over it. Um. Also threatening the family,
18:23
Speaker 1: like hey, you love your little brother and your mom
18:25
Speaker 1: and your dad, while I can kill them very easily,
18:28
Speaker 1: like if you try to escape, and if you're talking
18:29
Speaker 1: to a little ten year old girl, that's gonna you know,
18:32
Speaker 1: do some serious damage. It has more effect than saying
18:35
Speaker 1: like a forty year old single guy, yeah I think so, yeah,
18:40
Speaker 1: or a married guy well no, I don't know. You
18:42
Speaker 1: can still threaten a married guy's family, a family man's family.
18:45
Speaker 1: It's just yeah. But I think they would react like,
18:48
Speaker 1: you know, like Harrison Fordwood on Air Force One. Yeah,
18:51
Speaker 1: not cowering. They would be like, oh, yeah, what was
18:53
Speaker 1: the famous line you shouldn't test me? You know, was
18:57
Speaker 1: get off my plane. Yeah, that's what it was, you
19:00
Speaker 1: shouldn't test me. That's pretty good though. I think that
19:02
Speaker 1: was in the initial script. Um. Well, of course my
19:07
Speaker 1: line got revised. Very funny. Um. So time goes on
19:13
Speaker 1: U and then what happens is the captor gets stressed
19:16
Speaker 1: out because I'm sure it's pretty stressful to keep someone
19:19
Speaker 1: captive like that. So the captive, the kidnapp e, sees
19:24
Speaker 1: these wild mood swings maybe and maybe feels threatened by this,
19:29
Speaker 1: and in order to survive again, they feel like they
19:32
Speaker 1: have to learn the emotional patterns of this person. And
19:36
Speaker 1: so what happens is they end up connecting and by
19:39
Speaker 1: learning about this person, by studying their behavior, they get
19:41
Speaker 1: to know him and like that sits right, yeah, And
19:44
Speaker 1: that's like when they figure out that just obeying everything
19:47
Speaker 1: the person says is not enough, because the fuzz outside
19:51
Speaker 1: shooting tear gas into the bank vault is really starting
19:54
Speaker 1: to take the hostage, take her off, and you can
19:57
Speaker 1: obey all day long, but the police are screwing. Thing
20:00
Speaker 1: is up. And I'll bet that's also about the time
20:02
Speaker 1: when that um, that third step where you come to
20:06
Speaker 1: see um the outside world, the people who are trying
20:10
Speaker 1: to rescue you as harmful as a threat. Yeah. Um,
20:15
Speaker 1: So you get to know your captor you're obeying um.
20:19
Speaker 1: And then it comes this part where if you listen
20:21
Speaker 1: to the Brainwash episode, this will make a lot of sense.
20:25
Speaker 1: Um your captor displays some minor bit of kindness towards you. Yeah,
20:31
Speaker 1: this is the key, I think, and this is why
20:33
Speaker 1: they think possibly abuse can't be present. Oh yeah, yeah,
20:37
Speaker 1: because because it breaks down this very essential ingredient of kindness,
20:42
Speaker 1: or it can't well or if the abuse stops, they said,
20:45
Speaker 1: sometimes just the lack of violence from a certain point
20:47
Speaker 1: the scene, as like, will you do me a kindness? Okay,
20:50
Speaker 1: quit beating and raping me. So I would I would
20:52
Speaker 1: agree with you on that one. But for the most part, say,
20:55
Speaker 1: it could be offering food. It could be something as
20:57
Speaker 1: simple as stopping abusing some buddy, or just saying I'm
21:02
Speaker 1: not going to kill you yet, or I'm not just
21:05
Speaker 1: not killing the person yet, and the the captor, Um, no,
21:09
Speaker 1: the hostage comes to see the captor as some sort
21:13
Speaker 1: of savior because the captor not only can kill you
21:17
Speaker 1: because he's got your life in his hands, he's not
21:20
Speaker 1: killing you, which means he's protecting you. And now your
21:24
Speaker 1: brain just broke a little bit. Well. And and if
21:27
Speaker 1: they're the one bringing you your food and water and
21:30
Speaker 1: books and magazines, like, they're essentially the one caring for
21:33
Speaker 1: you because they're keeping you alive. And in the case
21:36
Speaker 1: of J. C. Lee Duggard, um, I think like on
21:40
Speaker 1: the very first day after she was like handcuffed and raped,
21:44
Speaker 1: the guy was started to tell her like amusing stories
21:46
Speaker 1: and things. I mean, this dude was seriously twisted, but um,
21:51
Speaker 1: and like would get her fast food and things like that,
21:53
Speaker 1: so like kind of right out of the gate, he
21:56
Speaker 1: would like do these little random acts of kindness, which
22:00
Speaker 1: I'm sure just confused the hell Ouever, Oh yeah, bet,
22:02
Speaker 1: because she was pretty young when she was I think
22:05
Speaker 1: she was ten. There's nothing can you imagine you could
22:09
Speaker 1: do to these people that would be as bad as
22:12
Speaker 1: what they did to those No, you know it's absolutely true. Um,
22:16
Speaker 1: there's another woman whose name I don't recall, who was
22:20
Speaker 1: kept in a box under a bed Helena. No, No,
22:25
Speaker 1: it was like for real for years, Like she wasn't
22:29
Speaker 1: like allowed out or anything like that, Like she was
22:31
Speaker 1: kept in a box. Yeah. And it's like, you raise
22:35
Speaker 1: a pretty good point. What what can you possibly do
22:38
Speaker 1: to somebody who did that to someone else? I mean that,
22:41
Speaker 1: do you think just desserts like eye for an eye? Yeah,
22:44
Speaker 1: while you put him in prison and they eventually get
22:46
Speaker 1: out or down't. I guess that's similar. But the prison
22:49
Speaker 1: is although it has some of those hallmarks because the
22:52
Speaker 1: guards are in charge and can beat you up, and
22:53
Speaker 1: there a lot of stuff. You're still connected in some
22:56
Speaker 1: ways to the outside world, and there's still a lot
22:59
Speaker 1: of dependence that the prisoner would have that somebody like
23:03
Speaker 1: being held hostage like this stuff like it would probably
23:06
Speaker 1: be solitary confinement for the duration. Yeah, uh, the old
23:11
Speaker 1: Quaker sentence, right. Remember they're the ones who came up
23:15
Speaker 1: with solitary so you could think about what you did. So, um,
23:39
Speaker 1: the captain now has emerged as your savior and as
23:44
Speaker 1: a friend kind of. And I think it's in the
23:47
Speaker 1: sense of, you know, when you go through something like
23:49
Speaker 1: really hardcore and intense and threatening with somebody, but it's
23:53
Speaker 1: not because of them. Like you can feel either tight
23:57
Speaker 1: with that person or you can feel like Homer and
23:59
Speaker 1: Mr Burr is getting trapped in that house during the avalanche.
24:02
Speaker 1: I never want to talk about it again. Yeah, you
24:04
Speaker 1: never want to see that weirdo again, right, um, But
24:08
Speaker 1: this would be type A. But the it's you're identifying
24:12
Speaker 1: with your captor, Like you guys are going through this crazy,
24:14
Speaker 1: intense thing together, and you're throwing out the window the
24:17
Speaker 1: fact that the captor has started all this and has
24:21
Speaker 1: dragged you into it, put your life in jeopardy, and
24:23
Speaker 1: now you're friends with this person, and you think that
24:27
Speaker 1: if you guys work together, you can get out of
24:29
Speaker 1: this mess and maybe like go, you know, live in
24:32
Speaker 1: Jamaica and hang out well. And I'm sure that the
24:37
Speaker 1: captors at some point over the course of these years
24:39
Speaker 1: say things to reinforce that, like you know, what are
24:41
Speaker 1: we doing here? Like what's going on? I've kept you
24:44
Speaker 1: in this thing, and how look at this mess we
24:46
Speaker 1: are in You think, oh, that's I'm just surmising, but yeah,
24:52
Speaker 1: I think, but I think, well, like saying a bank
24:54
Speaker 1: robbery or something. It's like you're you if you have
24:58
Speaker 1: classic Stockholm syndrome. You're saying, you know, let me talk
25:02
Speaker 1: to the cops. I'll get us out of here, Like
25:04
Speaker 1: I'll tell them that like they got it all wrong
25:07
Speaker 1: or something like that. That that level of identifying with
25:11
Speaker 1: your captors. Now you're just raised yourself to the same
25:14
Speaker 1: level as the bank robber as well, which I guess
25:17
Speaker 1: probably gives you a little bit of humanity. So the
25:21
Speaker 1: prevalence of this stuff is definitely debatable. Um, there's an
25:26
Speaker 1: actual database, Chuck called the um Hostage Barricade Database System,
25:34
Speaker 1: and it's an FBI database, and it's cases of people
25:38
Speaker 1: basically taking hostages and surveying this they found about hostages
25:44
Speaker 1: showed no signs whatsoever Stockholm syndro. These kidnappings or hostages
25:48
Speaker 1: are both. I would say hostage taking, I believe. UM,
25:53
Speaker 1: so that means people do show some affinity, you would
25:58
Speaker 1: think so. But at the same time you can us
26:00
Speaker 1: to say, well, like it's some high percentage of hostage
26:03
Speaker 1: taking their domestic disputes, where like you know the person,
26:06
Speaker 1: so they already have an affinity for them. If they
26:09
Speaker 1: shoot themselves, then you immediately feel bad for that person too,
26:14
Speaker 1: So we almost need a set of data just about
26:16
Speaker 1: like strangers taking strangers hostage exactly. That would give us
26:21
Speaker 1: a probably a better view of Stockholm syndrome. That's um
26:26
Speaker 1: And I think I had a larger point, but I
26:28
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was. Oh, I've got it, you're ready.
26:34
Speaker 1: So despite the the a lot of law enforcement people
26:38
Speaker 1: poo pooing the idea of Stockholm syndrome or it's prevalence,
26:42
Speaker 1: they do think that there's something to it, and they
26:45
Speaker 1: actually hostage negotiators encourage the formation of Stockholm syndrome because
26:50
Speaker 1: it keeps the guys alive. Yes, because when you hit
26:54
Speaker 1: a certain point where you've got a classical Stockholm syndrome
26:58
Speaker 1: case going on, but with the hostages identifying with their
27:02
Speaker 1: captor as a friend, they may turn on the police
27:06
Speaker 1: and it may make prosecution even down the road harder
27:08
Speaker 1: because the people may refuse to testify. But in the
27:12
Speaker 1: short term it can help keep the hostages alive because
27:16
Speaker 1: the captor in turn will start to see the hostages
27:19
Speaker 1: as human beings, because these are people who are coming
27:22
Speaker 1: at them like friends. So what's going on and like,
27:24
Speaker 1: what's your first name? And your kids and now the
27:27
Speaker 1: idea of executing these people is much more removed. Interesting.
27:33
Speaker 1: So yeah, hostage neghostiators will try to like get the
27:36
Speaker 1: whole Stockholm thing going. So now this can live in
27:38
Speaker 1: a suite with brainwashing, cults, hostage negotiation and that's probably it, right, amazing.
27:47
Speaker 1: It is now a four podcast suite. It is where
27:49
Speaker 1: it was previously three. It is. But we're not done yet, No,
27:53
Speaker 1: we're not. So I guess we should wrap up with
27:55
Speaker 1: Patty Hurst, very famous case of Stockholm syndrome, granddaughter of
28:01
Speaker 1: William Randolph. First the newspaper Magnet, was famously kidnapped by
28:05
Speaker 1: the Symbionese Liberation Army in the seventies, and uh was
28:12
Speaker 1: reportedly abused and and brainwashed to a certain degree and
28:16
Speaker 1: ended up sort of joining them in a famous robbery. Yeah,
28:20
Speaker 1: she was. She turned into a bank robber, like with
28:23
Speaker 1: the bray and the machine gun and the whole deal.
28:25
Speaker 1: Everyone's seen the photo. But then after she was freed,
28:29
Speaker 1: she publicly came out against the Symbianese Liberation Army um
28:35
Speaker 1: and opposed it, which is unusual for somebody with Stockholm syndrome. Yeah,
28:40
Speaker 1: and a lot of people thought maybe she was faking it.
28:42
Speaker 1: Maybe she was making it up, but I think the
28:43
Speaker 1: consensus now is that she was. Um, it was just
28:47
Speaker 1: a survival tactic. Yeah, But for I remember many years though,
28:50
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid hearing about this, like, oh,
28:53
Speaker 1: some people thought she'd like you said she was. Now
28:56
Speaker 1: she's tricking all us. She really did get into it,
28:58
Speaker 1: and she's trying to save her bay can. Because look
29:01
Speaker 1: at that photo with the machine gun beret. It's pretty
29:03
Speaker 1: convincing but definitely interesting. And then it's a Warhol, isn't it.
29:08
Speaker 1: Didn't he paint that? Really? I think? So he painted
29:11
Speaker 1: up that photo and then he went on to uh
29:14
Speaker 1: or she went on to starring John Waters movies. Oddly enough,
29:19
Speaker 1: have you seen the thing on the video of vaner
29:22
Speaker 1: Herzog like figuring out that John Waters is gay? No,
29:27
Speaker 1: it's pretty great. Really, he's talking to people and you know,
29:30
Speaker 1: the accent is just what makes it so priceless about
29:32
Speaker 1: how you know people are just people to me, I
29:35
Speaker 1: don't even think about gayle straight to something and he's
29:38
Speaker 1: like I was. I've known John Waters for like twenty something.
29:41
Speaker 1: He is and I love him. And I said to
29:42
Speaker 1: my wife recently, I said, I think he might be gay,
29:47
Speaker 1: and everyone in the room just cracks up. And he
29:50
Speaker 1: was just illustrating a point like I just don't even
29:52
Speaker 1: see people like that. Never donned on me that John
29:54
Speaker 1: Waters was gay. It's pretty funny, all right, That's all
29:58
Speaker 1: I got. That's good. If you all learn more about
30:06
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome. You can type that word into or those
30:10
Speaker 1: two words into the search bar at how stiff works
30:12
Speaker 1: dot com able to bring up this point article. And
30:15
Speaker 1: I said search bar, So that means it's time for melicitor. Male, Josh,
30:22
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this. I'm a musketeer. Did you read
30:26
Speaker 1: this one? No? I missed that. If there's a good one, Uh,
30:30
Speaker 1: this guy, all right, I'll just read it. Um, Lauren McNett,
30:33
Speaker 1: my father and I are abbot outdoorsman and carry a
30:36
Speaker 1: flintlock muzzleloader whenever we can cool. We're also configured, Uh,
30:41
Speaker 1: we've configured our flintlocks to be twenty gage shotdowns as well.
30:45
Speaker 1: We would be so nervous pulling the trigger. They know
30:49
Speaker 1: what we're they're doing, though. Um, we got through the
30:51
Speaker 1: same process as the minute man. We load the powder charge,
30:53
Speaker 1: load the patch load, the ball charge, the pan cock,
30:57
Speaker 1: the hammer got to charge the paint and pull the
30:59
Speaker 1: ceterric and finally pull the main trigger, at which point
31:03
Speaker 1: the flint and the hammer strikes the frisen, showering the pan.
31:06
Speaker 1: Was sparks that ignites the black powder in the pan,
31:09
Speaker 1: which is adjacent to the touch hole. This guy's just
31:12
Speaker 1: show it all. That in turn ignites the powder charge,
31:15
Speaker 1: sending the one and eighty grain lead ball out of
31:18
Speaker 1: the barrel at about eighteen hundred fifty ft per second,
31:22
Speaker 1: which is faster than the speed of sound. Uh. There
31:25
Speaker 1: is a difference in that true muskets do not have
31:27
Speaker 1: rifled barrels where ours do because it increases accuracy. We've
31:32
Speaker 1: been hunting for many years and we aren't anywhere near
31:34
Speaker 1: the speed of the minute men, which was three shots
31:37
Speaker 1: per minute. Um. We also don't have targets that fire back, obviously,
31:42
Speaker 1: but they hunt like bits. They hunt deer, turkey, bear
31:46
Speaker 1: and ducks with flintlocks, and it's really challenging and it
31:49
Speaker 1: takes careful consideration, special tools and lots and lots of patients.
31:54
Speaker 1: One yard shots are possible, but we generally try to
31:57
Speaker 1: get within forty yards with the rifles. In twenty arts
32:00
Speaker 1: with the shotguns, and he said, can confirm the inclement
32:03
Speaker 1: weather does take a toll on the ability to fire,
32:05
Speaker 1: even on human days. It can dampen the powder so
32:08
Speaker 1: where it will not ignite. And then he just goes
32:11
Speaker 1: on to point out that they are uh responsible hunters.
32:15
Speaker 1: They typically only get one shot, so they do their
32:18
Speaker 1: best to ensure that it is the swiftest, cleanest harvest possible,
32:22
Speaker 1: and then they process the animals themselves and waste as
32:26
Speaker 1: little as possible as a way of honoring an animal
32:28
Speaker 1: and being respectful of natures. So that's Lauren McNett, ps
32:33
Speaker 1: keep powder dry. Un let's have t shirts and say
32:37
Speaker 1: that thanks lord. Yeah, pretty cool. That is pretty cool. Um,
32:40
Speaker 1: we did it for the killing animals part, but I
32:42
Speaker 1: get I get it, your hunter. But we did a
32:45
Speaker 1: remember the is knife hunting the Fairest Way to hunt? Episode?
32:49
Speaker 1: Oh man, that's an old one, it is, but it
32:50
Speaker 1: was a good one. Remember we ended up like talking
32:53
Speaker 1: about how if a boar comes at you and you
32:55
Speaker 1: have a knife and that's it, you're on pretty much
32:57
Speaker 1: equal footing. Yeah that's pretty fair. But then or the
33:00
Speaker 1: end we started to go off on internet hunting or that. Yeah,
33:03
Speaker 1: that was a great episode. Dig that up Everybody's knife
33:06
Speaker 1: hunting the fairest way to hunt. That's the only article
33:08
Speaker 1: I ever refused to write was the Internet Hunting. Yeah.
33:12
Speaker 1: I was a signed that. I was like, I'm not
33:13
Speaker 1: gonna write about this. Yeah, good for you. And it
33:15
Speaker 1: went away because of that. It did like the next
33:18
Speaker 1: day Internet Hunting. Yeah no, um no, but it has
33:22
Speaker 1: gone away about that time. They chuck that contributed to
33:25
Speaker 1: its device. Um let's see. If you wanted to tell
33:28
Speaker 1: us about something, it can be anything, anything at all. Oh,
33:33
Speaker 1: if you've ever had Stockholm SI, how about that? Yeah,
33:36
Speaker 1: then I would you feel very bad for you. But
33:38
Speaker 1: I would like to hear story for sure. For more
33:46
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, is it how
33:48
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com