Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Carving Tradition: The McNair Family at DUX 2025! (Ep. 707)

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Carving Tradition: The McNair Family at DUX 2025! (Ep. 707) · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• 0:00
  VO: Can we do a mic check, please? Everybody, welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, doctor Mike Brazier. I'm your host, Katie Burke. I'm your host, doctor Jared Hemphith.
• 0:08
  And I'm your host, Matt Harrison.
• 0:18
  Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, the only podcast about all things waterfowl. From hunting insights to science based discussions about ducks, geese, and issues affecting waterfowl and wetlands conservation in North America. The DU podcast, sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Also proudly sponsored by Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails.
• 0:44
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• 1:06
  Katie Burke: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, Katie Burke, and we are live from the DU Expo, at the Duck Den. And I have the McNair family with me, Colin, Ian, and Mark. Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:20
  Colin McNair: Thank you, Katie. Thanks, Katie.
• 1:21
  Katie Burke: Welcome to DUX.
• 1:22
  Colin McNair: This is very exciting to be here
• 1:24
  Mark McNair: Oh, yeah.
• 1:24
  Colin McNair: In the duck den.
• 1:26
  Katie Burke: I would say this is my first live one, but I actually have done one live one. But this is a much, much bigger deal than the last one I did. So When
• 1:33
  Colin McNair: I think back to during COVID when I think I was I was in my house and we were doing this over the phone, and we've done it in the studio now and here in the the pop up studio at DUX, we're moving in the right direction.
• 1:45
  Katie Burke: That first one, yeah. I think that was, like, my fifth podcast ever. It's really early days, so yeah, we've definitely upgraded, and this is kinda fun. You know, I think back to the expo, y'all wouldn't know this, but when I was a kid, we used to have this expo at the Agri Center across town. It was all outdoors, and my dad would we'd arrive, and he would just, like, let us loose, and, like, we'd be gone all day, and we'd just run around the expo.
• 2:09
  And and since then, we had at the Texas Motor Speedway, but now we're here, and this is definitely an upgrade. There's air conditioning. It is like everything's pretty close by, it's been a good crowd today. I'm excited for the for the expo. What do you do?
• 2:25
  So you do a million of these like shows.
• 2:28
  Ian McNair: I I wouldn't get not necessarily
• 2:30
  Katie Burke: a
• 2:31
  Ian McNair: million,
• 2:31
  Katie Burke: But but you do lots of shows.
• 2:33
  Ian McNair: We we we get around a decent amount, and, yeah, this this is a really great venue for a Friday. We were kinda remarketing that it's already quite busy Yeah. You know, compared to some other shows, so I think Saturday, tomorrow it's gonna be Yeah. Should be pretty well pretty well attended.
• 2:48
  Katie Burke: Yeah. It's exciting for especially for a first year of coming out on this, so it's pretty fun. So let me introduce you exactly because I didn't I just skipped right in. So Colin has been on the show, I don't know, six times is this your fifth or you gotta be my, like, most attended guest. So Colin is a decoy specialist decoy specialist with Copley Art Auctions.
• 3:09
  Ian is a co owner of High and Dry, and then Mark here is our resident master carver, decoy carver. Welcome. I'm excited to have you here.
• 3:19
  Mark McNair: Thank you. Thank you very much, Katie. Katie, it takes
• 3:21
  Colin McNair: a pretty special event to get all three of us in the same place where we get to do Yeah. Waterfowl from pretty much every angle. So I've gotta tip my hat to d u for putting on an event like this that we can all justify being Thank
• 3:34
  Katie Burke: you all for being here.
• 3:35
  Colin McNair: Also, to to talk about why we are here, a big part of the reason that we are all here is because Katie Burke, curator over at the Bass Pro Pyramid
• 3:46
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 3:47
  Colin McNair: I was gonna
• 3:48
  Katie Burke: say Waterfowling Heritage Center.
• 3:49
  Colin McNair: Waterfowling Heritage Center has just opened up a major Canada de Goose exhibition.
• 3:55
  Katie Burke: Yeah. We and we will talk about I wanna I have specific questions for Mark about that too. But yeah. So it is open. It opened today.
• 4:03
  I actually had to open it thirty minutes early. I had people waiting to get in, which is really exciting for us, and we are honored to have Tim's collection. Tim Peterson is the his collection is there, and it takes up the entire museum. It's the first time in ten years that we have completely changed out the museum, so it's been a it's completely revamped for this collection. So it's really exciting, and it's it's really an honor to be a part of it.
• 4:28
  Colin McNair: It is amazing. It's an absolute must see exhibition. It's Candid Goose Etched in Time Carved in Wood Correct. And is a blockbuster in the world of decoys, and anybody that likes waterfowls gotta come to Memphis to check it out. So congratulations Katie Bird.
• 4:44
  Katie Burke: Thank you.
• 4:45
  Colin McNair: It's an absolute masterwork.
• 4:47
  Katie Burke: Thank you. And I don't know if they said this on here before today earlier today, but there are shuttles that are taking people to the Pyramids, so you can actually just get on the shuttle and head over, and they'll bring you right back. So easy to get to. Alright. So I have so y'all grew up on the Virginia Eastern Shore, which is one question I had for you, Mark, is why did you when you let's talk about you went to Carverville.
• 5:12
  Why did you decide to you and Martha decide to settle on the Virginia on the Eastern Shore in Virginia? Like, what was the motivation to go there for y'all?
• 5:19
  Mark McNair: Well, it seemed like a very natural move for us. It reminded it reminded me, and I think Martha as well, very much of where we grew up in New England and visited Cape Cod and Long Island, the East End Of Long Island. Agricultural, very rural, unspoiled. Yeah. And it just seemed very inviting, and it seemed like a path of last least resistance.
• 5:46
  Yeah. We just sort of just sort of opened itself up.
• 5:49
  Katie Burke: So how long had you been carving before you moved over?
• 5:53
  Mark McNair: See, I have to think about it for a second. I guess it was about about ten, eleven years
• 5:57
  Katie Burke: Okay.
• 5:58
  Mark McNair: At that point. I was really just getting established. I felt like I was I was on kind of solid ground that I would actually be able to make a living. I remember when we we bought the the farm where we live now. The I drove down there with the with the banker, and he was a really regular guy.
• 6:15
  He's in flannels. He's got, you know, boots on, and he he looked at me and he goes he asked me, he says, give it to me straight. He said, you know, what do you make a year? I'm a decoy carver. And I told him and he goes, no kidding.
• 6:26
  And I went, it wasn't very much, but it was it it was enough. He was very pleased to hear that.
• 6:32
  Katie Burke: He Oh, yeah.
• 6:33
  Mark McNair: He became a good friend. So Well,
• 6:35
  Katie Burke: I think we're all pretty pleased that they y'all there are decoy carvers that are successful enough to keep doing it full time and to keep that tradition going, which is so important. But okay. At that point when you moved, have y'all had kids yet or did you have kids when you moved to Martha? Do you know? And do you have kids?
• 6:52
  Mark McNair: When we moved to the Eastern Shore, no. No. No. No. We've been married we've been I had to no.
• 6:58
  Had to think about it because we we bought a house. We bought an old farmhouse in a in a soybean field, and we did not have any children. We did shortly after that. Okay. That's when we
• 7:09
  Katie Burke: And the
• 7:09
  Mark McNair: y'all a house and
• 7:10
  Katie Burke: started a family. Youngest? Yeah. So your and the sister's the oldest.
• 7:14
  Colin McNair: Correct.
• 7:15
  Katie Burke: Okay. Yep. So with that, like, going to the Eastern Shore, like, did you have any plan did you have any idea of what it'd be like to raise kids in that environment? Was that something you were hoping to do?
• 7:29
  Mark McNair: I think it just kind of I think it just kind of arrived. Yeah. Why I sort of paused about how long I'd been carving because we did live in this other house for a few years, but when we moved to the farm where we live now, Ian was about?
• 7:43
  Ian McNair: Year and a half. Year and a half.
• 7:45
  Mark McNair: And Delana, his older sister was about three, and they got out of the car, and we walked over toward the water, and it was a little bit of a hill. And the two of them kind of ran, rumbled, tumbled, rolled down the hill, and they just looked so happy. And I went, wow. What a what a great place to live, and what a great first reaction from them. Yeah.
• 8:08
  And so it just unfolded, and I said, I just hope this was meant to be. Yeah. And and it was.
• 8:13
  Katie Burke: It was. Yeah. Yeah. And you've been there for how long now?
• 8:16
  Mark McNair: Luther in '83.
• 8:18
  Ian McNair: So
• 8:18
  Katie Burke: A long time.
• 8:19
  Mark McNair: It has been. I would say forty
• 8:21
  Katie Burke: Forty years. Fifty years. Yeah. Yeah. That's a long time.
• 8:25
  So I wanna know that because obviously as a carver and living there has influenced your sons and stuff in their career as with high and dry and Copley and decoys. So I just was wondering, like, as kids growing up there, what was that like for y'all? How did that how did that impact you being where you were?
• 8:44
  Ian McNair: It was totally normal. Yeah. I mean, you don't think about anything else.
• 8:48
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Were so when did the outdoor I mean, do you immediately start, like, being in the outdoors and everything as a kid? Like, you're just drawn Some to
• 8:57
  Ian McNair: of my first memories were just going down to the dock and spending the entire day crabbing on the dock. Papa will attest to that. It was just think I would just go down Yeah. On my crab lines and my little nets, and I mean it was either there crawling around on the Papa's workbench. Yeah.
• 9:13
  It was just again seemed totally natural at the time.
• 9:16
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Same?
• 9:17
  Colin McNair: Yeah it was an old waterfront farm, we had a ton of coastline, really dynamic environment, not a lot of neighbors, and so the absolute wonderland to grow up with as a kid, you know, the nature of it is it's normal, and I go back there now and and you pinch yourself. But, yeah, it was really great place to grow up, and thank you for giving us that that introduction.
• 9:40
  Katie Burke: Oh, okay. So what you just mentioned a minute ago, Ian, but what was your first, like, memories of your dad in your like, in your dad's job?
• 9:48
  Ian McNair: There's there's really are some of my first memories was I just remember going out there and just sitting on his workbench and just kind of crawling around up there and there's you go to in the shop, there's shelves and little cubbies and screws and nails and eyeballs and fishing lures and shotgun shells and just all this paraphernalia that goes along with it. And, you know, what's this, papa? What's this?
• 10:12
  Mark McNair: I don't That's
• 10:13
  Ian McNair: and I don't know. I think I was like five, you know, found a bass fishing lure. What's this? I was like it's fishing lure, tell me more.
• 10:23
  Colin McNair: Yeah, Ian and I now have young daughters of our own and so for me, I know you're experiencing the same thing, seeing our kids grow up and experience our workshops really brings a lot of that back. Yeah. And just, you know, the little things of watching a three year old learn how to use a real tool and taking it step by step, it's a it's a fun process to be a part of.
• 10:47
  Katie Burke: Is that nerve racking? I mean, was that nerve racking for you to, like, watch them use tools? You're not you weren't yeah. No. I mean, I don't think I would be my husband would freak out.
• 10:56
  Like, I don't know if he could handle
• 10:57
  Mark McNair: Well the tools. Of using common sense, you
• 11:00
  Colin McNair: know, let them Mostly went pretty well. Yeah.
• 11:03
  Mark McNair: You get them beyond themselves. You know, we didn't start with hatchets. There was a there's a tool called a spokeshave, and it's pretty safe because you have both hands wrapped around the tool Yeah. And you're actually cutting wood with it, and you get the sound of the wood being cut and, you know, the the the wood the curl of the wood coming off, and it's really very satisfying. And again, both hands are busy Yeah.
• 11:24
  So you're not gonna cut your finger.
• 11:26
  Katie Burke: Right.
• 11:26
  Mark McNair: And develop a nice feel for it, and that was kind of how they started.
• 11:33
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That's funny because yeah, like not so not typical of most kids
• 11:37
  Mark McNair: growing Really?
• 11:39
  Katie Burke: Hate to tell you, that isn't normal. And I didn't have a normal childhood either, but that's also not normal. So yeah. That's really interesting. So at what point did you because you as a carver are not necessarily a carver, as a hunting carver, you were more an aesthetic artistic carver would you say?
• 12:00
  Mark McNair: I had never gone hunting in my life
• 12:02
  Katie Burke: Yeah.
• 12:02
  Mark McNair: When I carved my first decoy, and carved quite a few decoys for several years before I went hunting. And I met this really interesting guy, and he asked me where I hunted, and I well, I didn't, and he was kind of surprised. Yeah. So he took me hunting, and I found it was you know, this is just such if you're gonna it was just another part of it, and I'm really glad I experienced it because it was absolutely wonderful to watch the this is I don't know. Magic isn't quite the right word for it, but to put decoys out in a place in Long Island Sound in January and have birds coming coming right to the spot where you set it all up for me.
• 12:44
  Katie Burke: Were they your decoys we need today?
• 12:46
  Mark McNair: No. They were? They were actually silhouettes. Okay. And I'm thinking, how are these things gonna attract anything because they're made out of plywood about this thing.
• 12:54
  Yeah. You And put them out on the water, and then once they went into action and stuff, they looked just like the real ducks. It was great.
• 13:01
  Katie Burke: So how far into because this is surprising because if people look at your decoys, it's surprising that you didn't hunt, some of them. Like, especially like this, like, little blue winged tail, it it looks like you would have hunted more, like that you had you looked at that to hunt with as a working decoy.
• 13:18
  Mark McNair: Well, I do now. Yeah. And I make things, you know, I make things to hunt with, but I had to teach myself to do it, but also why am I doing it? And I think the attraction to me with decoys was they looked had had this very universal appeal to them that and I'm not the first person to express this, but you could take there's a decoy over in the goose exhibit if anybody wants to go see it, and you really should, and it's by mister Stafford, Charles Stafford? Mhmm.
• 13:47
  Colin McNair: Yeah. Charles Stafford.
• 13:48
  Katie Burke: Stafford.
• 13:49
  Mark McNair: This looks like it could have been carved out of stone in China six thousand years ago. It has that same sort of powerful appeal that he made it to to lure
• 14:00
  Katie Burke: Oh, yeah.
• 14:01
  Mark McNair: Canada geese, And that type of thing attracted me to decoys. It wasn't like, oh, I wanna make a bird and go hunting. I I loved the idea that people had taken something that was gonna be utilitarian, and I hadn't thought all this through yet.
• 14:14
  Katie Burke: Right. Yeah.
• 14:15
  Mark McNair: But the design that they didn't paint all the feathers. They painted feather groups, and it became like a very like a graphic design, like a mask Good afternoon. Fabric design, that type of And I just found it fascinating, and then I wanted to pick it up and pursue it.
• 14:29
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That's really interesting. So and like with that, like your dad's doing this more artistically, but did y'all start out carving in that mode or did you start like wanting it to hunt?
• 14:38
  Colin McNair: We we grew up in a different era of understanding of decoys and so to to back up to when he started interacting with decoys, it's nothing like what we thought of today. Yeah. At the time it was the early nineteen seventies, there was a book on decoys that came out in the nineteen thirties, There were two more books that came out in the sixties, and there wasn't this big community of collectors. There was not sort of an industry built around it, and so it was what I call the age of innocence. It was before the William j Mackie sales went off and Birds had sold for over $10,000.
• 15:14
  Because we can everybody can look at a decoy now and say, oh, yeah. You know, they've sold for over a million dollars. But back then, to be into decoys, it had you had to have a pure passion for it because there wasn't any money involved. Right. And so we grew up in a different context where the money was involved in the decoys from the very beginning because it's where all of our money came from.
• 15:33
  Right, yeah. Was Papa selling decoys, and legend has it I was six when I carved and sold my first carving and Ian you would have been about the same age I guess. It was definitely a different context that we started with and we had a big kind of boost into what we now think of as sort of the modern decoy collecting scene.
• 15:55
  Katie Burke: So what was like driving y'all at that young age? Like what were you just wanting to do it because your dad was doing it? Like why were you wanting to make them? I mean a lot of times kids wanna do things just because their parents are doing that can be the answer, but
• 16:07
  Ian McNair: Yeah. I think a little of both. Was, you know, I just liked hanging out in the shop. Was just a fun place to be and stuff to check out, and, you know, once I got a little bit older and I could use more than just a spokeshave, I wanted to make fish cause I was just really into fishing, and Papa made some fish decoys, and I was like, yeah, like that attracted attracted to me. About, I think I was like 14 and I was like, you know we'd been dove hunting, but I hadn't been duck hunting, and I was like, I'm ready to go duck hunting.
• 16:34
  And I don't think the thought ever crossed my mind to like buy plastic decoys.
• 16:38
  Katie Burke: Well, you hadn't grown up around them, so why would it? Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:41
  Mark McNair: I don't know.
• 16:41
  Ian McNair: That's uncommon. We'll make them.
• 16:43
  Mark McNair: You can make your own. Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:44
  Ian McNair: We just
• 16:45
  Colin McNair: didn't have any money to buy plastic Not that we would have considered it.
• 16:49
  Katie Burke: Well, I mean, it's not like you didn't have someone, like, right next to you, like, well, you could just make them. Like, you had definitely the end the person to support that. Like, if I said I wanted to make my decoys when I was 14, my dad would be like, why? You could just go get some. Like, wouldn't have that would have not that would have been like the much more complicated answer.
• 17:07
  Ian McNair: Oh, it's definitely more probably cheaper and easier to buy plastic ones, but, we had the a a way to do it, and none of that's just kinda how we did things
• 17:14
  Katie Burke: in It our
• 17:15
  Ian McNair: was like pretty, I don't know, if something broke, we we tried to fix it, pop up, you know, they bought an old farmhouse that had been abandoned for fifteen years, and they fully restored it with my dad and some of his friends, and it was kind of they took them took them quite a while, but it was that was that was kind of part of the whole Yeah. Life process in the McNair family was kind of do do it by yourself and be creative about it. So again, like you said, it it felt totally natural just to make a rig of birds.
• 17:42
  Katie Burke: Well, was thinking about this when you were saying this too, like, just with my kids and then, like, I coach kids and stuff, running and stuff, and were you just kind of good at? Because I noticed that with kids, like, they don't wanna do anything sometimes unless they are naturally good at something, and when they're not, when someone tells them they're, oh, you're kinda good at that, it then like inspires them to keep go, like they really wanna keep going and I'm guessing since you started so young, y'all were pretty good to start. I mean like, were they? Were they pretty good to
• 18:09
  Mark McNair: They're very good.
• 18:10
  Katie Burke: Yes. Both of them. I would assume so and that inspires confidence and keeps them going.
• 18:16
  Mark McNair: Yeah. And I would I didn't say that just to make them feel good. Yeah. No. They were they were really good.
• 18:20
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Because like that, I just even with my I just noticed that with my kids, like, they're the things that they are Yeah. They they are better at naturally, they lean that way, like, just because it's they get more feedback about it and, yeah, they get more attention from it, so they continue to do that. So I'm sure y'all you had to be.
• 18:37
  Ian McNair: We had
• 18:37
  Colin McNair: a good teacher. Yeah.
• 18:39
  Katie Burke: Who was I
• 18:40
  Mark McNair: think you guys were kind.
• 18:41
  Katie Burke: Who was easier to teach?
• 18:43
  Mark McNair: Never really thought about it. I think they both I tried not to turn them into a copy of me Yeah. Something, but, you know, let them express themselves, but help them when you know, when you're when you're creating something Mhmm. I wanna make a decoy. Yes.
• 18:58
  You wanna make a decoy. Okay. What do I do first? Get going, and then you get to don't know what to do next. Yeah.
• 19:05
  So if you take you're teaching somebody, show them what to do next, and then let them do what feels natural to them. You know, maybe give them a little pushing, a little guidance. Yeah. But but but guidance, but keep them going. So when you get stuck, this is what you do next.
• 19:18
  You won't go through the process and teach them how to and they were very good about oh, they just had a natural flare for I think they love the outdoors. Yeah. They love ducks and fish and things like that, and we're able to express themselves. Yeah. I was happy to help them.
• 19:30
  Colin McNair: The the whole environment too is pretty conducive to learning how to carve and then being encouraged to carve more and then participate in the marketplace because my mom who's sitting just off camera here, she homeschooled us for years and my dad's workshop was a one minute walk from the house. Yeah. So we had this perpetual access to and it was always an open workshop for us. So we had perpetual access plus we were around all the time and we're in a rural place so there's not
• 19:58
  Katie Burke: Not a lot going on.
• 19:59
  Colin McNair: Yeah. You're not going down the street to see people because there isn't a street. Yeah. And so we had that and then on top of it, I mean from the earliest stage we had people wanted to buy our carvings and so you had this really positive reinforcement and it was really, know other than your allowance, it was your only income stream and as a young kid that was a really very powerful draw and you know the marketplace is what's allowed us all to do what we do and so it was very natural fit that we kind of were in the stream and it just kind of kept pulling us along.
• 20:37
  Katie Burke: What was the first thing he carved?
• 20:39
  Colin McNair: The first duck was a miniature ruddy duck that I sold to my handwriting teacher Ernie Smith. Ian, how about you?
• 20:48
  Katie Burke: That's very specific.
• 20:50
  Ian McNair: It's a big deal. And he got $25 for it, which was a fortune.
• 20:54
  Colin McNair: Is a lot 100 of dollars. I
• 20:58
  Katie Burke: mean, my kids think a dollar is a fortune, and they get disappointed when it doesn't buy anything. So I get it. The
• 21:05
  Ian McNair: first thing I made when I was 10 was a perch, a fish, a birch decoy, and then the first duck I made, Papa and I kind of made them together, made a rig of black ducks, cork black ducks.
• 21:16
  Katie Burke: Okay. Did you hunt with them?
• 21:17
  Colin McNair: Oh, yeah.
• 21:18
  Ian McNair: Hell yeah. Yeah. That was I took some of Papa's kind of cast off heads and they had some cork kicking around and No. Kinda passed them together and took them out on on the bay.
• 21:27
  Katie Burke: So what was it like killing ducks over your decoys for the first time?
• 21:31
  Ian McNair: Well, the first time the ducks came into my decoys, I missed.
• 21:36
  Katie Burke: They came They
• 21:37
  Colin McNair: came in
• 21:38
  Katie Burke: Yeah. And
• 21:39
  Ian McNair: Yeah. No. That's and that was, you know, I think I don't know if everybody has the same experience, but that first time when you see, like, ducks actually come into your decoys, it's a pretty special moment. And the fact that we actually made those decoys and put them out there and they actually worked, that satisfaction that, I don't know, something that you made with your own hands actually fooled, you know, a duck that migrated down from somewhere in Canada. It's pretty pretty special.
• 22:02
  Katie Burke: I can imagine it's kinda like, well, the first time you call in a duck for the first time, Yeah. But like you know, threefold. Like, it's a little bit bigger than that. You actually made the decoys too, but, yeah, the first time you actually called a duck in, I I bet it's similar.
• 22:14
  Ian McNair: I I think it's a similar experience,
• 22:16
  Katie Burke: Much more a little more
• 22:18
  Colin McNair: Katie, it might feel like the first time you publish a major book and put it out there and get rave reviews.
• 22:25
  Katie Burke: I don't know if it's that.
• 22:26
  Mark McNair: I don't know. That that feeling that you're familiar with right now.
• 22:30
  Katie Burke: Thank you, Colin. It's yeah. It's crazy to think about.
• 22:34
  Colin McNair: It's a very very complete feeling.
• 22:36
  Mark McNair: Yeah. So
• 22:36
  Katie Burke: you really got me flustered, and now I don't remember where I was going. Perfect.
• 22:49
  VO: Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan and Bird Dog Whiskey. After these messages.
• 23:05
  Katie Burke: With that, all that background of, like, carving your decoys and growing up on the Virginia Shore with your dad and all that, at what point and I and then I don't know if I even have answered this for myself, but at what point did you realize that you would go into a career that, like, was heavy with that? I mean, I I know, like, know it's gone. You went to art school and stuff. Like, I don't know if you thought you were gonna go into decoys when you went to school. But at some point, what point did it draw you back to kind of that original upbringing and being back in like in the world that you kinda started off in?
• 23:37
  Ian McNair: I guess there's a probably a long answer at least for me because Yeah. I I always knew that I would carve decoys or do something with my hands like I did growing up just because it was something I really enjoyed. Yeah. And so, you know, through college, after college, I continued to carve, but it was kind of sporadic, know, in between, you know, summer vacation or I ended up traveling for most of my twenties and lived all over the world, but I'd usually like take a little tool kit with me, some hand tools and something just to work on just because again I enjoyed it. About the time I turned 30, my wife was like, she said, we're done traveling and I'm gonna become a school teacher, and it was us also kind of got to the point where I was like working on something sporadically you don't really get better, or you do get better, you fall off, and so you know, it was like if I'm gonna do this, I really need to focus on it.
• 24:24
  And so about 30 decided to kind of make the transition to becoming a full time decoy carver. The story's a little bit longer than that now because I've transitioned into into high end drive more, but I guess that
• 24:36
  Katie Burke: So, well, when did that transition happen? So you were decoy carver, so then when did the transition from high end or how'd that go? Like, tell us about that transition.
• 24:44
  Ian McNair: So we'd moved back to Virginia to be kinda closer to home, and my buddy Brian, who I grew up duck hunting and fishing with, graduated high school with him, he had gone off and done his own thing and moved back to go work in his family business growing clams and oysters on the Eastern Shore Of Virginia, back to his roots as well, and essentially they're in the water three sixty five, well fifty two weeks a year. Yeah. And they're in waders every single day and they couldn't find a pair of waiters that would hold up. And so Brian's like, if my guys are wet, they're not going to be happy and I can't find a waiter that will keep my guys dry at a reasonable price. Yeah.
• 25:19
  So he's like, look I got a problem, can you help me solve it? You know, it'll be a little side hustle, we'll outfit my guys, we'll have some duck hunting waiters, we'll make a little cash, and so that was like a decade ago. Yeah. And so high and dry obviously has grown considerably since then, we both kind of transitioned into, you know, Brian's quit his job with his family business and focusing completely on high and dry.
• 25:41
  Katie Burke: Decoy carbon, yeah, it kind of tends to do it at the same time.
• 25:44
  Ian McNair: Yeah, you know, I make time to do it, you know, and you know, in the summertime we're a little bit slower so I can get out of my workshop a little bit so I can kind of bounce back and forth,
• 25:53
  Katie Burke: so. So what do you think how do you think like your decoy carving and growing up there helped you into going into high and dry?
• 26:01
  Ian McNair: Oh, I guess it was critical. Again, it all seems kind of natural because it was just kind of like this is what I do, this is what I know, this is where I grew up, so it's all been a pretty natural flow. It hasn't been like oh I need to pivot into something and go back to school and learn a new skill. You know, obviously I've learned a lot along the way, but I guess coming from where I did and how I did it all Yeah. Again it all seemed pretty natural and pretty normal.
• 26:27
  Katie Burke: Yeah, no I feel that.
• 26:28
  Colin McNair: Yeah, aren't you? Yeah, so what I was saying before about what's special about this event is it brings, you know, him here as a waiter company, I get to come here with Copley Fine Art Auctions, my dad gets to be here because you know, he's got decoys over in the museum. Yep. And so I think you know, for Mian's standpoint being able to being able to make that switch was pretty natural and you know, we do that at the Southeastern Wildlife Expo, we do it at the Waterfowl Festival. We all get to come together throughout the year for these great crossover events and yeah, for for me I was, you know, when I was home in the summer I'd work on a charter boat during college in the beginning of the summer and then I'd have a bunch of cash in my pocket and I'd carve for the rest of the summer and then sell all that stuff before I went to school.
• 27:13
  And so it was very clearly, decoys were, have always been a great way for me to not have to have a job. And then coming out of college, you know, I was studying biology and I thought I was gonna go down the oyster reef restoration path on the Chesapeake Bay, and then Steve O'Brien offered me a job with Gopley Fine Art Auctions which had just started. Steve had just back in 2006 and this was 02/2008. You were young. I was.
• 27:42
  Katie Burke: You were very young, we're the same age so I don't know how old you were.
• 27:45
  Colin McNair: Yeah, was 21 years old coming out of college and I thought well, you know, I
• 27:51
  Katie Burke: Lucky you.
• 27:54
  Colin McNair: Well the market hadn't absolutely fallen to pieces at the time you offered me the job. Yeah. It was about a month after I took my desk on Newbury Street in Boston that the market fell apart and our whole generation had a trial by fire.
• 28:07
  Katie Burke: I was I was trying to become a museum employee. I remember it well. So
• 28:13
  Colin McNair: So, yeah, 02/2008, yes, Steve had just sold a couple of decoys for over a million dollars each, and I was I was excited to get in there and be a part of the action and then it was tougher than it looked like from the outside. I had no idea what goes into being an auctioneer. Mhmm. And, yeah, that was going on twenty years ago now and I've been able to carve on the side a little bit in kind of fits and starts. I got, you know, right now the contemporary market is hitting all time highs.
• 28:46
  Yeah. The Mark McNair record has fallen three times in our last three auctions, and we're seeing that for contemporary makers across the country. And so that's been really encouraging, and that's helped me focus on getting back in the workshop.
• 29:02
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Need younger carvers for sure.
• 29:04
  Colin McNair: Absolutely. No, it's
• 29:06
  Katie Burke: And been they're not getting yeah, they tend to be keep getting older but not any younger, so Yeah.
• 29:12
  Colin McNair: So the yeah, the market again, it gets back to the point, the market has been really encouraging, I think that, again, it's a really natural, everything is just kind of fit together normally. I get to see my family around the country throughout the year. Yeah. And yeah.
• 29:29
  Katie Burke: That's always, that is, that's, and I have that now and, yeah, I get to haunt with my family now and back when I was in Philadelphia, that didn't happen so much. So, that's that's nice. But alright. Well, you've you've got to a point and I kinda wanna at this point, it'd be nice to transition over to kind of the process. Let's kinda go in and show people like what involved in making a deep way.
• 29:49
  Can you can you kinda help us with that, Mark? Do you need me to hold the mic for you or can you do both? If
• 29:55
  Mark McNair: I'll pass you the mic when the time comes. Okay.
• 29:57
  Katie Burke: Let's do that.
• 29:58
  Mark McNair: So this is what this is what the boys saw when they were younger
• 30:02
  Katie Burke: Okay.
• 30:02
  Mark McNair: And what I had to teach myself, and I didn't do it in a vacuum. I knew people that worked wood, and I asked questions of people. And so just start off with a white cedar, and I brought a chunk of it right here, and I'm not gonna chop anything out because I'll leave that for another time. But this is a piece of white cedar. This is that I brought with me that's it's a nice straight grain.
• 30:29
  It's a beautiful wood. Smells great. These are for making boats, it also makes wonderful decoys. So you start with a piece like this, and you take a band well, actually, I was gonna say, take a band saw and you cut it out, but the first thing you really need is a an idea. So you start with an idea so you know what you're drawing.
• 30:47
  So you draw on a piece of wood a pattern, and you take a band saw and you cut out a block like this. So you have a profile from the top, profile from the side. So you have length, heights, and width, which is three dimensions, but that's not enough to express something that's moving. So we want a fourth dimension. We want an a lovely endless line.
• 31:10
  And to create that, you take that block and hold this for me.
• 31:15
  Katie Burke: Thank you.
• 31:16
  Mark McNair: Nope. This way.
• 31:16
  Katie Burke: Nope. Here. That block
• 31:20
  Mark McNair: take and you take a hatchet like this and it's really sharp and you use it to Switch. Chop away the things that don't look like the duck. And then when you remove most of that wood, take a spokeshave, and this is what the boys used when they were younger, and you make what they used to call curlies. And their little girls do this, and they do it really well.
• 31:47
  Katie Burke: Oh, really? Oh, god.
• 31:48
  Mark McNair: It's so much fun to watch them.
• 31:50
  Colin McNair: Oh, all of Not there yet.
• 31:51
  Katie Burke: Not there Well,
• 31:54
  Mark McNair: we've we've done little demonstrations at like DU events and things like that, and his little girls get up there with a bespoke shaveners, and they always have a crowd, and people are look at this. That's just it's so much fun. It's full of joy. So you you give it a nice shape. This needs a little bit more finishing work, but you work on this until it's attractive.
• 32:15
  Yep. And then you cut it in half and you hollow it like this. So and I use it hold on one second. It's a gouge like this, and I got and to scoop the inside of it out so it's nice and smooth and nicely balanced. And I found that if you do a nice job hollowing it, you tend to do a nicer job finishing it.
• 32:35
  Just it's a mental thing.
• 32:37
  Katie Burke: Okay. Now
• 32:38
  Mark McNair: from there Hold on. Like, grab this. With the head, we take a rough head like that. You chop it with a hatchet, and then use a knife to do some finish work. And then you put all of this together, and you hopefully have a nice little blue winged teal.
• 32:52
  And then you take the pencil, and you delineate what are the feather groups, but you turn them into something that's a nice graphic design, and you have this that lovely crescent moon on the face. I just happen to like blue wing teal, which is why I brought this one. And then when you take this, you finish, you have it's painted, and we're not gonna do that here either, but it's just part of the the alchemy. And you have a finished bird. So you take a starts with a log and end up with a bird like this, and it's basically, what you have is a little boat.
• 33:27
  And I think if you toss this in the water, it'll self write. And I think it's a sweet little bird. And as you could see, I didn't paint all the feathers, but I indicated them using a a design Yeah.
• 33:41
  Colin McNair: A pattern.
• 33:41
  Mark McNair: That's that's it in a nutshell.
• 33:43
  Katie Burke: Yeah. No. I get it. I
• 33:45
  Mark McNair: see it. Take it.
• 33:46
  Katie Burke: I feel like I'm louder all of a sudden. Okay. Can you talk to us about the paint a little bit and your process of that? Like, so you do wet, you do wet on wet, I'm guessing.
• 33:53
  Mark McNair: Oh, everything's.
• 33:54
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Everything's wet. How long would it take you to paint this decoy?
• 33:58
  Mark McNair: According to my watch, it's it's timeless. I don't pay any attention to time. Yeah. What I do know is that the more you paint, the more efficient you become. Right.
• 34:11
  And it's just and I really don't watch the clock. A lot of times you just have to stop and let things rest. Right. You have to let something dry because it's a process. And you asked about wet on wet.
• 34:21
  You know, some of that is wet on wet, some of that is dry brushed. There's a lot of transparencies there. Mhmm. So you're looking at it, you're like, oh, looking at the paint. You go, no, I'm actually looking at the color of the wood.
• 34:32
  And it's built up through well, if you think about this, like the, you know, paint is can be opaque and it can be transparent. And because I want a lot of wood to show, because wood is just as it's it's luscious Yeah. And got a nice glow to it. So I paint it so that that glow of the wood will be coming through the finish. So you could use varnishes and oils to apply color, but so it's still transparent.
• 35:04
  And I like old finishes. I grew up in a very old town where there were like lots and lots of homes that were two and three hundred years old. And so floors were worn and the banisters were worn and I like the glow of wooden. I like the glow of and that's one the things that attracts me about decoys. So I paint them that way.
• 35:25
  Katie Burke: Yeah. They have
• 35:25
  Mark McNair: a You paint
• 35:25
  Katie Burke: them like a painting. Definitely have a warmth.
• 35:28
  Mark McNair: Thanks. Yeah. If I was gonna paint that on a on a canvas, I would paint it like that. Okay. So I would paint it to look like that.
• 35:34
  If it was a bowl of apples, I would paint it to look like that. So this Yeah. Is my vision for like, this is my my little dream blue winged teal.
• 35:43
  Katie Burke: Yeah. I like him.
• 35:44
  Mark McNair: Thanks. He's cute. Well, good.
• 35:46
  Katie Burke: Well, that's I mean, I wasn't surprised that I liked him, but
• 35:49
  Mark McNair: Well, you're you know what? These things, you're holding it too, which is something that I think is I like. Yeah. But, you know, you don't wanna, oh, I don't wanna touch that because I might, you know, damage
• 35:59
  Katie Burke: Okay. That's interesting to put because you don't necessarily do I mean, your decoys aren't necessarily made for hunting rigs. You they're used, like like, in people's homes. So but you still really want them to be handled and
• 36:13
  Mark McNair: If they don't float properly
• 36:15
  Katie Burke: not really a decoy.
• 36:16
  Mark McNair: They're not really a decoy. You know, if it's not nailed together properly. I use all the what I said before about hollowing it nicely. That's really important. Yeah.
• 36:24
  If you do that, if you stay with that I remember somebody told me once before about hollowing. I said, no. Don't bother you made me out of two pieces. Right? The body.
• 36:31
  Ian McNair: And they said,
• 36:32
  Mark McNair: I don't bother hollowing because nobody's gonna know the difference. And I went, I don't think that's the way I want to approach it. Yeah. I'll know the difference.
• 36:39
  Katie Burke: You'll know the difference.
• 36:40
  Mark McNair: I'll know the difference. So and I I've I think it was Donald O'Brien said this about a decoy. If it doesn't float properly, it's not really a decoy. So are my birds gonna end up on a mantle? Yeah.
• 36:54
  I know that. But but you could you can still take them and go hunting.
• 36:58
  Colin McNair: A matter of fact, last time the three of us all hunted together last season.
• 37:02
  Katie Burke: Oh, yeah.
• 37:03
  Colin McNair: We we were at a very nice hunting lodge which had a very nice decoy collection and we got the keys to the decoy cases. Oh, yeah. And we jailbroke about $10,000 worth of decoys, got some lines on them, and we had a fantastic mallard shoot. Oh, nice. So How
• 37:21
  Katie Burke: did they feel about those decoys going, honey?
• 37:23
  Ian McNair: It was perfect. It was it was the owner's it was the owner's Oh,
• 37:26
  Katie Burke: good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you really kinda have to have their permission.
• 37:30
  Ian McNair: No. He had a big smile on his face when we pulled him out the night before. I think it made him as happy as it made me to see him come out of there.
• 37:38
  Katie Burke: Good hunt too, yeah?
• 37:40
  Colin McNair: Great hunt. Great to go. It was a quality hunt. No. So there definitely is that you have to respect the value of them.
• 37:49
  You can't just hunt over any birds you want all the time, but, yeah, keeping it honest and getting them out in the field is definitely
• 37:56
  Katie Burke: I mean, that's what they're made for.
• 37:58
  Colin McNair: Always been part of how we've made things, and you know, one thing that's been really fun to see is how decoys have continued to evolve, and so outside of the world of duck decoys now, you have, actually Don O'Brien was part of the Puffin Project where they started using puffin for conservation work, and now decoys are used for conservation efforts around the world especially with seabird species. And we got connected with a gentleman Matt Eberhard who's a world class nature filmmaker and he's using a rig of my dad's golden plover to decoy in, golden plover, to help tell a story with a very conservation minded, entirely conservation minded goal. And so he's taking golden plover decoys out into the plains of Kansas and filming with them, and it works. It works. Can watch the birds come right in on the vast plains.
• 38:47
  Pretty fabulous. And so yeah, decoys outside of waterfowling have taken on a new life and a new utility which has been great.
• 38:55
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That's awesome. Alright. So before like we have to wrap up, I have a question or I'll mention the book again. So I have Colin mentioned the exhibit.
• 39:03
  We have the book that goes with this exhibit and really with the same name that was written by Mark Petrie from Ducks Unlimited. Alright. So in this book, we have one of your decoys.
• 39:15
  Mark McNair: I was
• 39:17
  Katie Burke: Let me find it.
• 39:18
  Colin McNair: I think try the title page.
• 39:19
  Katie Burke: Well, is on the title page, but I want the whole image. Okay. So I'm being particular about which image I want. So give me a second. I know what it is.
• 39:29
  I helped put this book together, so I'm very aware of
• 39:31
  Colin McNair: where
• 39:31
  Katie Burke: it I've seen it a few
• 39:35
  Mark McNair: I'm just
• 39:35
  Colin McNair: really those of you at home, Katie is flipping through a book that represents or is built around a collection of decoys that is an unprecedented group of Canada geese.
• 39:46
  Katie Burke: Alright. This one, this Canada goose. I think if Colin is correct on the date, he said it was 1983, so pre year pre year existence, Colin.
• 39:55
  Colin McNair: Just go with the papa.
• 39:57
  Mark McNair: That sounds about right.
• 39:58
  Katie Burke: That sounds about Sounds about right? Okay. Good idea. The key
• 40:00
  Mark McNair: he can
• 40:01
  Katie Burke: keep his title as decoy specialist. So do you remember making this decoy?
• 40:06
  Mark McNair: Yes. I do.
• 40:07
  Katie Burke: Can you tell us a story about this decoy? Well You need this book? Here, take the book.
• 40:13
  Mark McNair: No. You hold on to the book. I I think I'm good. I I really like Canada geese. Yeah.
• 40:20
  I don't make all I'll make them for a while and then segue into something else. And I I'm not exactly sure what stimulated probably the wood. Wood often has the piece of wood, you know, would trigger something. Because I'm always thinking about birds all the time. But, you know, I'm gonna guess the the Canada geese were migrating, they were starting to show we were hearing them and so forth.
• 40:46
  We go outside to look at them and so and I had some logs, and I've had other friends tell me the same thing. You go out to to make something, and you just go, that log right there looks like a Canada goose. And the next that's what you start off making even if you had another do you know what I mean?
• 41:05
  Katie Burke: Yeah. No.
• 41:06
  Mark McNair: There's a lot of spontaneity to it. And I think that's a that's a true story, but I don't remember all the particulars. But obviously, I wanted to make a Canada Goose at at that point, and I think I made several
• 41:18
  Katie Burke: Okay.
• 41:18
  Mark McNair: That were like that. And I because looking at the paint, I'd gone through a process of of figuring out they're very complex. You know, you seem to know they're black and they're
• 41:30
  Katie Burke: Yeah. Everybody thinks they're just black and brown.
• 41:32
  Mark McNair: Brown and everything. And they get up to okay. How am I gonna solve this question of doing the feathers, representing the feathers in a pen? Under so it looks like I understand what I'm doing. I was into it at the time, so that
• 41:45
  Colin McNair: You gotta put the mic closer about that. Oh, I'll put the mic closer.
• 41:48
  Katie Burke: There you
• 41:49
  Mark McNair: you go. No. No. That's my recollections of it. Yeah.
• 41:53
  Katie Burke: You know who said that when I went to I did I went to Pete Peterson's Uh-huh. To Pete Town, USA.
• 42:00
  Mark McNair: Pete Town.
• 42:01
  Katie Burke: And he he was I couldn't get him to tell me his process at all, and then finally he just goes, you know, you just sit down, you got a block of wood, and that block of wood just just know what it's gonna be. I that was his that was his big explanation for me. And I was like, well, that was that worked out. He's like, yeah, you just know what it's gonna be.
• 42:21
  Mark McNair: There's a lot of truth to that. Yeah.
• 42:24
  Katie Burke: Yeah. That was the simplest answer I've ever heard.
• 42:28
  Ian McNair: Pete has a good way of simplifying things. Yeah.
• 42:30
  Katie Burke: He's a blank and
• 42:31
  Ian McNair: precise statement.
• 42:33
  Katie Burke: I think it took us forty five minutes to get to that, like, five word statement. Well that says, yeah, that I love that bird. It's actually also just to if people know, it made the title page
• 42:45
  Mark McNair: I was so honored to see that because
• 42:48
  Katie Burke: It made the title page of the book.
• 42:50
  Mark McNair: You got some of the the not some of, the the yes. Some of them. The majority of the really great Canada geese are in this in this exhibit, in this collection. I mean, there's that one, and there's that one, and there's
• 43:06
  Katie Burke: that one, and there's
• 43:07
  Ian McNair: that one.
• 43:07
  Katie Burke: It just keeps going.
• 43:08
  Mark McNair: And it's like, you know, those they're really it was stunning to see it last night, and we're gonna go back and look at it.
• 43:15
  Katie Burke: Oh, good. You need to you need to go without all the people and take time. Yeah. The people are great. It's wonderful.
• 43:22
  Yes. But you gotta you gotta, like, go and see it. Like, I I was telling lots of DU people because they had been there and they're like, oh, we were talking so much. We didn't get to see it and and you haven't even been there yet. But it I was like, yeah, you gotta go.
• 43:35
  It's so because it's a lot. It's a lot. Right. It's overwhelming. Yeah.
• 43:38
  And so you need the time to sit to it. So before we go, I just wanna, like, kinda talk about a little bit before you go, like, what y'all have planned this weekend with Copley and High and Dry, and kinda y'all give us all your your show rundown.
• 43:53
  Ian McNair: At High and Dry, we're set up in Booth 801, and we've got our High and Dry trailer here. I got my business partner partner, Brian, and our Owen that works for us. We brought one of every size of all the different waiters that we make. So you can come here, you can get outfitted, you can try stuff on, make sure it fits. We've also got apparel, we got hats, we got other stuff, so feel free to come by and check out the booth.
• 44:17
  We'll be here be here all weekend. Alright.
• 44:19
  Katie Burke: You, Collin.
• 44:20
  Colin McNair: Alright. I'm in Booth 841.
• 44:23
  Katie Burke: Yeah. You should've looked at that before.
• 44:24
  Colin McNair: Yeah. 841 with Copley Fine Art Auctions. Yeah. We brought a few birds for people to look at so they can see what a real wooden decoy looks like. We just had an auction a couple weeks ago, so we were doing some deliveries here in town.
• 44:38
  We're doing appraisals for people that have photos or wanna bring their birds in. And, really just having a great time with the DU family. Anything old wooden decoy related or sporting art related, we're the the resource here for you. Yeah. And, yeah, also I can't wait to get back over to big part of my agenda is going back to the goose exhibit and spending more time, so it really And is
• 45:04
  Katie Burke: then how how long are you all gonna be
• 45:05
  Mark McNair: here, Mark? All weekend.
• 45:06
  Katie Burke: Okay. So if you see Mark walking around, you have to like stop. You have to stop. They have to stop you and get you to tell some stories about some decoys because it's it's worth it is definitely worth the visit with you to kinda get to see you. Okay?
• 45:20
  Mark McNair: Very much for making all of this happen. Yeah. That's really why we came Yeah. To see see you, see what you've done, the book, to see the exhibit, and so Martha and I drove out.
• 45:30
  Katie Burke: Y'all drove? We did.
• 45:32
  Mark McNair: Impressive. Well, it's it's nice to go see America.
• 45:36
  Katie Burke: Yeah. It is. I agree.
• 45:37
  Mark McNair: All my fellow Americans live. Well
• 45:39
  Katie Burke: yeah. No. Well, thank you for making the drive.
• 45:42
  Mark McNair: Our pleasure.
• 45:43
  Katie Burke: Alright. Well, thank you, Colin, for being on the show.
• 45:45
  Mark McNair: And we get to see the boys.
• 45:46
  Katie Burke: Oh, yeah. That too. So well, thanks for being on here for the I don't know. Let's make it half a dozen, I guess, next time. Keep keep them rolling.
• 45:54
  Yeah. And, Ian, thanks for coming on.
• 45:56
  Ian McNair: Thank you, Katie.
• 45:56
  Katie Burke: And thank you, Mark.
• 45:57
  Mark McNair: Thank you very much, Katie.
• 45:58
  Katie Burke: Alright. Thanks everybody for joining the Ducks Unlimited podcast.
• 46:04
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• 46:26
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