Latest / Return to Love / Dr. Deb and Earl "The Pearl" Thompson on Masculinity

Transcript

Dr. Deb and Earl "The Pearl" Thompson on Masculinity · Return to Love

• Lisa Mauriello: Today we're gonna unpack the topic of can we go from toxic masculinity to healthy, mature, authentic masculinity and is it possible to rewrite the playbook? Welcome back to the Return to Love podcast. I am Dr. Deb Castaldo, your host, and I am here because I've spent over 35 years hearing all about the complaints about men and women in couples therapy because that's my day job. So I've heard every imaginable story you can think of. And on top of that, I've lived over six decades and I've probably made all the mistakes myself that you have made. I married too early. I went through a midlife divorce. Since divorce, I dated up and down the food chain and I'm probably still making mistakes and also working through childhood trauma that has impacted the way I love and who I'm attracted to. We talked about that in the last podcast. So, do you think that we can begin to rewrite the playbook on male behaviors and masculinity? Well, I have. Perfect guest with me today because I think he knows the heart of the matter when it comes to masculinity You might know him from the Bravo show love hotel Where he became a standout star and I think he was noted for his ability to resolve conflict to be rational to be a very good listener and a lot of qualities that I think we would consider authentic masculinity. He's got a lot of pearls of wisdom to share with us today. So please welcome Earl the Pearl Clomson. Hi, Earl. Hello, Deb. How are you? I'm great. Thank you so much for joining me today on this topic. You know Earl, I met you when we both did a TV show here in New York living abundantly with Sarah B. And I was lucky enough to get to interview you. And I know Sarah and I immediately remarked, gee, this guy is really listening. And he leaned in and he's making eye contact. And isn't that really refreshing? And I remember how impressive that was that day. And you and I have had some conversations since then. So if we jump right into this topic, first I want to say today is not about shaming either men or women. ⁓ I think we have to think about things are not going so well. We are failing miserably at love. The divorce rate is still over 50 or 60 percent. ⁓ Second and third marriages fare much worse. And we pretty much are failing. You know, people are not happy in relationships. So in the work I do, I think a lot about how can we in these individual couple sessions make a difference and help to reteach people the skills that we don't have. Most of us don't come into adult relationships with much skill. We usually have the childhood skills which don't work out very well. So Earl, I want to ask you, as you know, our culture is steeped in patriarchy for thousands and thousands of years. And the problem with that is that all of the messages that little boys get and men get about being strong, being stoic, ⁓ don't cry, ⁓ suck it up and be everything to your partner and your family. have to be a leader and a protector and a provider and have this strong thing and we don't want you to be wishy-washy or if you're too emotional is that too wimpy? And my teacher Terry Reel says that model of intimacy from patriarchy guarantees that men will be lousy husbands, fathers, and friends. I could see that. Yeah. So I want to ask you Earl, you do have some skills, I think that represent authenticity and how did you learn them and what was it like for you growing up as a boy? Yeah, you know, I agree with what you're saying there. I think it's generational. You keep getting it passed forward and ⁓ but it not everyone grows up that way. You know, some kids have very nurturing fathers, you know, and but like a lot of guys my age and I'm 61. mean, my dad had it horrible with his dad. OK, and he did the best he could, but he he was not a great father by any means. And I kind of picked up some of his traits and was carrying them forward until about the age of 22. And then I had an epiphany. Because I had a pretty rough childhood with both my mother and father Like my brother left when he was 17 I left when I was 17 my sister left when she was 16 we were trying to get out of that it was very toxic and But at 22 I realized that I had to stop blaming them for every mistake I was currently making Okay, I literally had no idea how to treat a woman. I was I looked at them as just kind of people coming in and out of my life, not that they had emotions and feelings, because that's what I saw, you know, for my dad, very stoic, worked on the docks in Chicago, never saw him cry or break down. ⁓ You know, we didn't talk about much about except sports once in a while, you know. Not how was your day, son? You ⁓ so you grew up not getting that attention, not. You know, knowing how to talk effectively with people, you know, especially adults, and then my mom also had issues. So how do you talk to a woman with respect? You know, we would just shut down. We're quiet. So you're bringing all these things from your childhood forward and there's so much variability. So when you were talking about the patriarchy and being that person that kept their emotions and feelings hid and they showed their love by giving you a paycheck every week and going to work and making sure the oil changes are done, that may not be the person's love language that you're with. And so you're not connecting. And I think love languages are so important. ⁓ And it's okay to I learned early on to listen to my feelings and Be able to talk about things So I I don't know where it came from because it didn't come from my dad But when people would start to talk to me, I would listen and so I had that gift already ⁓ But I couldn't share what was in my heart and what I was feeling that came a little later where It was almost scary to do that, but then once I started to, I realized it wasn't so bad. And I think if more men could connect to what they're truly feeling, not be pressured to say it in the moment, because that's never healthy for a guy, because he's like, I can't think, you ⁓ You give them that space to really consider it and then come back to you. Don't expect the answer right now because they may not do it, but eventually they might get better at it. Well, we know that pausing is a very good skill. That's been in the psychology recently about the 90 second pause. And if we think of things through, you know, the outcome can be different. Yeah, I think a lot of that problem, too, is we talked on the last podcast is about, you know, when you have childhood trauma and children only have impulsive reactions as when they're children. They can't say to their parent, please don't talk to me like that, or I don't think you're listening to me. So most adults in loving relationships go to those automatic childhood impulsive responses. They don't thinking they're so triggered. This is mostly what I see in therapy is men defensive and women too. We're gonna. have some podcasts about women thrills too. So we're not blaming one part. We have to take into context the whole relationship. But I see men jump so quickly into defense and attacking. And that's what they did when they were little. Either they clamped up and went silent, ⁓ or they held it in and then went explosive and had tantrums. Yeah, I think in a Any type of setting where the dirty laundry is being aired. That's embarrassment, you know, so when a guy reacts like it's almost like a quick volcano reaction, right? It just explodes. It's. The fear that he's going to be seen different than other people and these human and that they have problems just like everyone else, but he'd rather keep it behind the walls, you know, and. I've seen that a lot where guys, they are explosive. it's the number one thing is usually embarrassment because you just heard some of our dirty laundry and they don't recognize that everyone has that. It's okay, talk about it. ⁓ That's only way you can solve it. yeah. I have a friend that went through a lot this past year. a lot of losses. And I remember in the course of communicating, I thought maybe there was some not doing so well emotionally there. And the statement was, I look fine, fine, you know, and I see no much in therapy where the guy will say, no, I'm fine. ⁓ There's nothing wrong. have nothing to say, or I have some that just completely wall off and shut down. and say, I usually like to get people to give each other what they call gifts in therapy in terms of if they've asked for something to be listened to or to be more of a partner or whatever it is. And sometimes I'll have, you know, I want people to give each other to each other. And I'll often have a guy say, no, just like I know, it's like the world drops down. And then the woman starts to cry and there's the huge disconnect. I think a lot of it is based in shame. You're talking about, I don't think we all did shame. What was word you used? Embarrassment. Embarrassment. if you cry or if you get emotionally warm or soft, that's embarrassing. Then you might be called a wimp or wishy washy. Yeah. You know, so this goes so deep, Earl. And it's a complicated subject. It really is. Yeah. But I think what it means is that then neither the man or the woman are fully present in their relationship because they're not being their authentic self. They're acting out these roles that are socially constructed, that have been around thousands and thousands of years. I looked at how far back patriarchy goes and it's like 300,000 years. Yeah, reasons for it. I read a good quote by Carol Gilligan, a great psychologist who said, patriarchy was based is based on the threat of male violence. And the promise that women will keep the secret silent. And that that's so much we're in the The roots of that, we still have the remnants of it, even though I think we've made a lot of progress. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. What do you see in your work in terms of communication and how men handle what they're going through when you work with them? Well, you know, I I see such a variety of things. They're already checked out nine times out of 10, they're not coming back. Okay, so if you can get to the root cause with a guy honestly, why is it that you're checking out and it's something that can't be corrected? Like, I don't find my wife attractive anymore. She cheated on me and I've never been able to forgive her. I tried, but I just can't and then I put her down all the time for it. ⁓ There's many different reasons why a guy checks out, but I think 90 % of the time once they check out, it's kind like a woman. Once she's done, she's done. You had a lot of opportunities in the pre-done department, but once she says done, she's done, okay? And I think guys are like that too to a certain extent. ⁓ I think there's a lot of things that could be the cause of that like a lot of destructive arguing where things are said and you create a sore that you keep picking at and it never heals and Then resentment forms and so when I'm talking to my friends or someone come to me for ⁓ some solid advice I let them talk and then As they're saying stuff to me, I can see what's behind it, you know, and I can see, OK, this was falling apart a long time ago and you've been clinging to it or he's been clinging to it or you both have for the children, you're both miserable over that. know, sometimes taking a break gives clarity. Yeah. Whether you're coming back or not together. But a lot of guys go into counseling as a last resort to save the marriage. Let's go to counseling, you know, ⁓ because they really got caught doing something horrible and they don't want to lose half their stuff in a divorce. And there's many reasons or the kids or they really feel horrible, which they should feel horrible. And they want to try therapy. But then they get into therapy and they realize that that's a lot of hard work. That's not going to change overnight. You're not going to give them a list of things that will completely change the person the next day, right? So you got to set, think, set realistic goals if you're if you ever has a chance. OK. And so when I'm talking with them, I'm like, all right, do you want this? That's the number one question. Do you want to be in a relationship with her or him? And can you forgive? past transgressions to move forward, or are you always gonna keep bringing it up and setting yourself backwards again? And you'd be surprised what they say, you know? I mean, that's getting really to the heart of the matter. Do you wanna be in it? Do you wanna make it work? And can you do a clean slate? That clean slate is the one I think most people have a hard time with. there's no triggers. They can't help having a trigger, right? So that might pop up and if they're honest with themselves, say, I'll do the best I can and this is how I'll manage those triggers. Okay, I can manage them, but they are gonna still come up and then the husband understands that and he's gonna manage that situation a different way too and then you have a game plan. But. I think there's so many things to pull back the onion on here. First of all, for most men get dragged into kind of therapy that I do couples therapy. It's almost always the woman that calls. So a lot of them are very reluctant and then I'm in charge in the room. And so that doesn't go over well. And sometimes I have to deal with. ⁓ A man will start to intimidate their wife in the room and start to be verbally abusive and also think they're going to turn that on me and I don't allow that in my sessions and that can be a really hard moment where I say This is not allowed and you need to take a break. You need to step outside You're welcome back if you manage yourself, but right You know, ⁓ some guys will run out and slam doors and I never see them again, if you thank God. ⁓ But I have had, when you describe what you did just now, I would say that's the leverage for working with men is do you want this? And then if they say, yes, I'll do anything. I want my family. I want my marriage. Then that's your leverage to say, If you do, think it's in your best interest not to do such and such, not to intimidate, not to shut down, ⁓ not to go on the attack. But then it takes, as you said Earl, some learning of real new skills. Right. But most of us don't have them from childhood. And I just have so many stories even from the last week of ⁓ I overheard a conversation in the coffee shop. think it was a first date and the guy was really proudly saying that he cooked for himself from the age of five. He was left alone until then at age six he was sent to boarding school and then stayed in boarding school many, many years. And when he did come home, if he was punished for something, it was beaten out of him. which we hear so often, and he was expected to stay in his room for an hour doing nothing. And if his father caught him doing something in his room in that time, hours were added on. So it was devastating to just overhear, you know, and I've heard so many experiences of that, of boys, men who come into therapy and then they're telling me as a boy, they were. Had things beaten out of them and they were told not to cry and they were told not to be a wimp by speaking up and just all of those things that we know. Isn't going to help them succeed in adult loving relationships. ⁓ You said you had an epiphany. Was it around the time you were 20? Yeah, I was walking down an alley in going to my house over one of the breaks in college and. It just hit me that I was blaming all my bad decisions on my parents. And I went, okay. And I was in a fraternity, I was pretty promiscuous. ⁓ I was looking at women more as objects than as people. And I, in that moment, decided to become celibate. And ⁓ for two years, which by the way is an aphrodisiac if you tell a woman your cell phone, which I learned it's like challenge accepted, you know, at least of interest. Yeah, challenge accepted. So ⁓ but yeah, that's when things started really changing for me. ⁓ I. I always was able to listen to people and. be a caring person, but my immaturity caused me to make some poor decisions. And I always blamed it on my family. And once I made that decision not to blame it on my parents anymore and to stop looking at women as objects, ⁓ it changed my life. you know, not everyone gets that epiphany. Not everyone is self-reflective. I had that gift too. I could always figure out what I was feeling. Sometimes it took me longer than others, but usually pretty quickly compared to everyone else. And a lot of guys just don't have that gift. They sit there going, I'm mad and I think I know what it is, but I'm not really sure. And sometimes it's what they're thinking it is causing the anger isn't even what that's all about. You know, like you said it could be something with shame You know where I'm angry with what she said. Is that what you're really angry at? No, I'm I'm angry that you know it now That's where the anger is coming from. Right? Yeah the shame the story that's made up is That men don't have those type of feelings and that we are inherently different we're from different planets Mars and Venus and We're inborn with this and nothing could be further from the truth. I think we're all born being loving, curious beings as babies and then what happens to us after we get out into this world and all these huge messages are surrounding us about little boys and little girls and. I've seen situations in my therapy sessions where I'll have a family there and ⁓ if they have two children, are a boy and a girl where a boy will start shoving his sister around and grabbing the toys from her and parents will be just sitting there as if nothing's going on. Now, if a little girl does something, there's a whole different reaction, a whole different message. But this message and ⁓ Also, another thing that I run into a lot, wanted to get your take on this because it's really my story as well, is men who are physically present in their relationships, in their loving partnerships, their family situations, their selves as a father, a husband, a friend, may be physically consistently present and emotionally not present at all. And this was my story with my father. physically present, worked very hard. ⁓ Just, you know, the basics of every day, going to work, coming home and nothing emotional towards me as a little girl. So that's what I grew up with. So guess what keeps showing up for me that I have to watch out for? That's my trigger. Emotionally unavailable man who can't connect, who can't be emotional. who isn't affectionate. I remember times where it was so hard for my father to hug me certain days, you know, when I was graduating from Columbia with a master's degree. He didn't know what to do with himself. He didn't know what to say. There's so much of this, Earl. Do you have experience with that, with the, you know, guys feeling like, I'm physically present and I'm doing all those things. I'm the provider, the predictor of this and that. What more do you want from me? Yeah. You know, I think they they learned a long time ago not to open their mouth. Right. And so, you know, they worked really hard. They're smart people. They wanted a family. They have a family. They don't know how to interact with kids because of the way their parents were. OK. And so they just kind of. Instead of making a mistake, they don't even try. Okay? And they're missing out on so much. You know? And I wish I could just take them to the side and say, early on, it's gonna be scary. This is what's going to occur. You're gonna feel like you'll never have the right words. When you're trying to show affection, it's gonna feel awkward. You gotta keep doing it, okay? Both of you need that, okay? Not only your child, but you need it too. Okay, and changed the story. And I wish I could reach out and grab them in that moment, but by the time you get them, they've had years of being silent. Yes, and rewarded for it too. Right. Yeah. Less arguments. Right. Keeping your job. Right. The what I'm now calling, I'm about to roll out a new keynote speech. that's going to talk about relational ROI, return on investment, subtitle, the heart of the matter in AI, in the age of AI. So, know, helping men to understand there is a relational ROI of learning skills and being willing to let this other part of you out that we know has just been suppressed since you were born. And that gets me to probably the most important question of our time together, Earl. I wanted to ask you about the idea of how can we rewrite the playbook on masculinity? And I've got a couple of ideas for us, but I wanted to hear what you think. We are making changes, but still not enough. I think. an obligation and an opportunity to do what we can do. Yeah, I think some men aren't going to change. OK, it's just it's never going to happen. ⁓ You've heard so many times, probably in your counseling sessions, she doesn't accept me for who I am. Right. Well, the truth of the matter is she accepts you for who you are. She'd like you to make an effort to change certain things so you have a better connection. Right? But they're like, you know, don't try to change me. Well, all right, you're gonna be alone for a long time and you're gonna be feeding pudding and jello to yourself, to yourself in a nursing home without having a partner, right? And so I had this come up probably about three months ago with a friend of mine and I said, You gotta make some changes here. Yeah, you've had some really great people come into your life and you just don't want them to change you. Well, you're gonna be alone or you're gonna be with someone that's destructive and you're gonna both put up with each other because you're getting older and it's not gonna be much fun, you know? Yeah, and you know the expectations of loving partnerships and marriage has changed so much. ⁓ You know, it's estimated that over 50 % of women in, I think, four years will be single, unmarried, without children. And it's growing. ⁓ I've seen, I mean, my age, there's a lot of women who are in their 50s that didn't have children. And I didn't want children. And that unpacked that one, OK? There may be a lot of stuff there, right? I actually did. That was my doctor's dissertation. ⁓ wow. Okay. About women divorced at midlife without children. And one the things we looked at was ⁓ their desire for children, but that's a whole other show. I know. Unpack that one. Yeah. But, you know, and I usually use leverage and I asked them the question you asked, do you want this relationship? On a scale of 1 to 10, how important is it to you to keep it? If they say yes, 10, then I know I have some leverage because I'll tell them just like you said, they'll be alone in the nursing home being fed jello. I say, you know, if you don't want to grow and change in a marriage, might as well be living alone in a single room or a cave. You don't have to compromise, you don't have to grow, but that's not truly living. And I also have a lot of people say, no, I don't want to change anything about myself. He or she is trying to change my personality. And I'll say, it's not about changing your personality or who you are, it's helping you to learn the skills that will help you to have a fulfilling, happy relationship, one that lasts forever. I ideas about how we can rewrite the movie book and I thought I'd pass them by you. First of all, I think we do have to start rewriting the stories of, you know, these old scripts of men have to be all of these things and they can't be emotional and warm and they can't cry because then they come up as too feminine. ⁓ And they need to be protective and they need to earn enough money and they need to do this and that and women are supposed to do a set of qualities themselves. think we can start reading these stories to why is not okay to first of all, we'll be human, all have feelings and whatever those feelings are, why are we labeling them? them masculine and feminine. Why is it okay for both sexes or all sexes to feel everything as humans and to not get categorized or stereotyped? So I think, you know, I also thought of the song by U2, One, which talks about, I actually have the lyrics here. ⁓ It talks about we are not the same, but we are one. and love is one. So it's a little bit mixed, like we don't have to actually be the same. We can be different, but we're all human. And I love that message because I thought it was a good basis for us to start thinking about how we can do this differently, changing the stories and then ⁓ normalizing the full range of feelings and wants and wishes and desires for both men and women. You know, and a man wants to be more emotional. And, you know, now men, we've made some changes where men are taking care of the babies and cooking and enjoy that. I know many couples where the guy is doing those things and they absolutely love it and the woman is doing other things. And if a woman wants to be independent or strong, some kind of leadership in a career. Why can that not be OK? And yeah, I think I think it's all OK. I think there's guys who are quiet based on their childhood or whatever that they're never going to change. So if you you have a marriage or a relationship where early on that was a good fit for each other, but then as you start changing and getting older and your your wants and needs are a little different. If you're expecting your husband who's never been that type of person to now open up about feelings and stuff, the odds are pretty high that's not going to work out very well for you. OK, so at some point you got to accept the fact that you kind of grown apart and your wants are different now than they were back then. It doesn't mean anyone's wrong. It means you both want different things in that moment. There's a chance it could change, you know, if. if both people want to put in the hard work. But there is that segment of guys that will not change. And if the woman wants him to change and open up about his feelings, there's a good chance that'll never happen with that group of men. And there's nothing wrong with that. They're just not living a fulfilled life, in my opinion. OK, I'm going to challenge you a little bit on it. I think men can learn how to do it. They get the skills are teachable. I agree. It still goes back to the unconscious, you know, messages that are in there. ⁓ I can't talk like that. What they don't realize is that has been pounded into them since they were a baby. You know, ⁓ they're too shy or they're whatever. But it is very teachable. ⁓ I agree. I do. We get down to the nitty gritty of how to say what you want. How to say what you feel. We help them identify what they feel out of a core of five feelings. And then we also help them to say what they want the other partner to do the same and then both learn how to give to each other rather than we call it from my teacher, Terry Real, the wise, mature adult as to the reactive immature. And I don't mean that as an insult. adaptive child who didn't have these skills who was told go in your room and shut up and if you cry you're going to get more hours in your room or I'll beat it out of you. They have that or they'll have they learn to be intimidating and shut down by intimidation. I just saw it in my office this week where a couple that has made a lot of progress with me with the guy opening up and she expressing herself more firmly and clearly They went back into their old pattern of she expressed an upset and a wish and I asked him to listen and validate. He wasn't happy about that. And when I asked him to give something, he just flat out said no. And we couldn't get through it at the end of the session, but I said we're going to have to talk about this. What brought that wall up? where your wife is sitting here crying and if you have a problem with how she's delivering the message, and we gotta talk about that too. As I said in the beginning, it's an interaction, a cycle, but we start with the guy has got the most power in the relationship and ⁓ that's where we begin to break down these destructive cycles. I agree with you. It's certainly teachable, but guys, And most guys inevitably default to what they know. Okay? It's like a default. You push them so far, they shut down and say, nope, I'm done. Okay? ⁓ I'm sorry, I don't want this anymore. I don't want to talk about my feelings. Now, they're not going to have fulfilling lives. But what they'll do is they'll, in that relationship, look for something where someone's not going to have those expectations. Maybe their new partner won't require as much out of them than... their prior partner, and that's gonna make him feel comfortable. Then maybe he can open up a little more. But if you have someone that really needs you to change quickly, they're gonna default to, thank you, it's not in my wheelhouse. And I hate to say it, there's a group of guys who will never change, okay? Could they all change? Yes. Will they change? No. It's the guy who really loves his wife, they are so... Broken that they can't figure a path back to each other But they're both invested in it and it's not like there's so much trauma in the relationship If they're just they pulled apart and they're trying to pull it back together again because they really do love each other They just don't have the answers or the tools that's I think we're counseling is so powerful Like you teaching them that you have two eager students now one eager student and one not listening. Well, yeah, and even that, you know, we believe in couples therapy that a relationship can change even if one is only doing the change that can teach them to teach their partner what they want and how they communicate. So it's a process, but it's something I'm really committed to that it is actually one of my themes is it is so easy to love. It's a lot easier than what most people are already doing with the defending and the attacking and the fighting and the silent treatment and not talking for weeks and months and you know, when you're breaking down these stories that you're underneath, it's a lot easier than most people would think. Yeah. Well, we have to just about end up now. I just want to end with my take on this, which is I think the benefits of learning how to do this are so incredible. What I'm calling now the relational ROI. I thought you guys could relate to the return on investment lingo. Better physical health, better mental health, more fulfillment, better work life, better sex life, and most of all, the one that Most important is the legacy that you leave for your children and the future generations When you can break these cycles that are led and ⁓ Oppressed by patriarchy when you can break those and develop these more fulfilling relationships The children are the ones that are going to benefit from it. ⁓ Everyone their friends their family everyone around them. Absolutely so Earl, I want to thank you so much for being with me today. I think we learned so much from your perspective on it as a guy. knew you would have pearls of wisdom for us. So tell us, where can people find you? So they can find me, EarlThePearl35 on Instagram. Facebook is Earl Thompson, I believe. Tic Tacs, Earl The Pearl 35, and I think YouTube's now that too. And you know, that return on investment, I think that is genius, okay? And I think we're, I'd love to have our next conversation, return on investment when dating. Sounds good. Yeah. Sounds good, we're gonna have to revisit this. Yes, yes. Relational ROI is trademarked by the way. Is it alright? get dating ROI too. well we got a couple of trademarks between us then alright, but we gotta get to these important issues and I thank you so much for your input as a man. I knew ⁓ that you would have a perspective that would help everybody that's listening so. You can reach me at thedoctordeb.com. I'm all over social media and I'm so pleased that the first podcast we are now up to 2,000 visitors use. So with this one, Earl, I hope we'll double that. And remember that each day is a precious gift and so is love. So remember to make each day a whole season of love. Until we see you again, take good care.