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STSE #68: Gentle "Parenting" Only for Gentle Dogs? · Sometimes There's Side Eye

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Welcome to Sometimes Their Side Eye, a podcast about two friends
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having real and unfiltered conversations about dogs and
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people. Listen as we talk about our
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lives with dogs, training, behavior, share some laughs and
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a whole lot of banter. I'm Heather.
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And I'm Christy. Hey, everyone, Christy and I
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just wanted to say thank you so much because we hit 4000
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downloads last week. That feels like, I know it feels
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unbelievable, but we just wanted to thank everyone for continuing
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to listen to U.S. drone on about docs.
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please share us with them. And thanks again for listening.
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What are we talking about this week, Christy?
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We're talking about gentle parenting and is gentle
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parenting for gentle dogs or gentle children, but we're
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talking about dogs because we don't know.
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We don't. Know we know nothing about
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children. Don't make me do.
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It no. I don't feel like I know much
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about gentle dog rearing, shall we say.
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Except you really do. Do I?
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You do because often your approach is, oh, I wouldn't have
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been so harsh, or I would have probably done that a little
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gentler, or I would have used maybe more incentive for that
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dog rather than force. Well, and I feel like every
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single time that we talk about anything, we're like, oh, it
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depends. But I do think it depends.
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I mean, I think that gentle dog rearing, I don't know.
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We're just going to say gentle parenting.
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I feel like gentle parenting is not hasn't been appropriate for
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all of my dogs. But then, then I just want to
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back myself up and be like, Christy, can you define what
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gentle dog rearing actually means?
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Not really. She's like.
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No. This was my idea and I don't
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know but I do think it's more positive positive based rather
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than and leaning. Towards force free, OK.
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So I do think about with that Lucy was a tough dog.
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She was not a gentle dog and I did not employ gentle parenting
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methods with her. I don't think I had those tools
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in my toolbox at the time. Either so.
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So I do think back on would things have been different if I
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had the same tools that I have today when I got hurt then?
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Oh, I think about that all the time.
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It's a dangerous, dangerous game to play.
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And not in a guilty way, just like I wonder.
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I wonder how I would have handled that or what would I do
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today if I had that situation. I don't know.
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I would like to think that she wouldn't have been on a prong
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caller, but honestly, she was so strong and and that prong caller
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was the way we could go on 13 mile runs together and not me,
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not get, you know, go head over heels as she like pulled off to
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another dog or decided she didn't want to do this anymore
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her own way, you know, But I have a lot more tools now that
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would also contribute to a better all around approach.
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To help her. Yeah.
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And I think that when you have more tools than your foundation
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from the start is different. How you build that relationship
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is different. I often, I mean, by far my
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hardest dog in my adulthood has been Link, my first dog, how
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special and Rottweiler and a very large dog.
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He was well over 100 and I think he was 113 at his prime.
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So I think about him and while we did use a prong for a short
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bit, I actually went to a gentle leader with him, which I mean,
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it was just what worked. And I think back and I'm like, I
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don't, I don't know that I would have changed anything that I did
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with him when it comes to the, the level of like my corrections
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and my, and my positive reinforcement and that kind of
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stuff. I just feel like I would have
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had smarter, like smarter things to try different things to try
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more if so than like, oh, I was gentle or I wasn't gentle.
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Does that make sense? It does, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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You would have tried different things.
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I also think for me, one of the things I think about is I would
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often yell at Lucy because I, I say Lucy was like my drunk
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Italian dog. If she was a human being, she
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would be like a little Italian woman screaming at people who
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had had a little bit too much wine.
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That's who she was. And when I think back, that's
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how I interacted with her as well.
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Like, like where we would kind of go back and forth, like, hey,
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knock it off, stop yelling at the the neighbors out the
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window. You know you.
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Met each other's energy. Yes, yeah.
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And when I got Julius, he was incredibly sensitive.
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And I couldn't do that anymore because it it just destroyed him
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because he assumed every time I yelled at her, he was being
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yelled at, that it was his fault that I was raising my voice.
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And that made me think a little bit because I had to change my
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methods. Yeah.
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So that he could also thrive. And so it forced me into a
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gentler pattern. Interesting.
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Everybody So when I was like, I kept thinking like, Nope, there
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like she doesn't really respond to the kindness or the the
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gentler methods, the hey, please don't do that.
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We're like most of the time I can actually do that with
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Jackson too. Like, hey, please don't do that
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instead of like, don't do that, You know, like that would
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destroy him. Him also, he's very sensitive.
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But when I came to a point where I I was forced into it, I did
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make it work. Yeah.
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I did have to figure out a way to be gentler with her where my
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points still got across and and a lot of times that meant
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setting up more barriers so that she couldn't do the things that
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annoyed me. Also more more rewards when she
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wasn't doing the things that. Yeah, yeah.
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And then we could start that communication a little at a
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lower level. Paying more attention to the
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yeses instead of the noes. Yeah.
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OK, so I'm like sitting here thinking to myself, I don't, oh,
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this is going to sound bad, but I don't like to.
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I like when I have a dog that I feel like it can't break.
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We've talked about that. Before.
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And I like that because you have more options on the scale of
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starting at a zero and going to a 10.
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But you're not going to break the dog.
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And I'm not talking about abusive or anything like that.
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Just like if you yell at the dog, they're not going to wilt
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and just think the worst thing, the sky is falling.
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But having said that, I also am aware when there is a dog that
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can't handle it because that is Tater in our house now.
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Tater, you can't you. I would feel bad to, to like,
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raise my voice to, you know, 'cause the little guy he has,
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he's. Very sensitive.
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He has a little noise to scare these and like, I don't want to
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do that to him, you know, like I, I would rather just offer him
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a cookie and he's like, I'll do anything you ask.
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Right. Whereas Thiago, he's like, I'll
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just do it, you know what I mean?
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He's like, I'll just do it. And I don't feel, I don't feel
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like that is because our relationships are different.
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I just feel like I, I treat them differently and maybe that's
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something for me to think about. I don't know.
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But they're just like. I don't think yes, you adjust,
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but so I was thinking is that fair?
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Is it fair to come in hot? Because I know I can when it's a
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good I think to learn method is is going to get the job done?
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I think, I don't know that I come in hot immediately, but I
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am more willing to go from not to hot at a faster rate, you
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know what I mean? So I'm more willing to like
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maybe whisper at tater and ask him something and, and he'll get
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like 5 whispers before I'm like dude really?
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And Thiago will like whisper maybe once or twice and then I'm
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like dude really? You know what I mean?
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It isn't nothing is physical, it's all verbal, you know?
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But I, as I'm sitting here and we're talking it out, I'm kind
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of like, wow, I feel like a Dick, but.
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It's not really. Also doesn't need typically
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Thiago isn't going to need 5 whispers, he's going to need
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one. Correct, right.
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It it and you know, as we're, as I'm saying that too, I think
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like the whole gentle parenting thing, it's like has more to do
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with the humane hierarchy and like starting with the least
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amount. Yes.
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The least amount that you can get away with for said dog in
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front of you. You know what I mean?
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And like not going from zero to 60.
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I don't feel like I start at 60 ever.
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I feel like I'm just I just go faster to that point depending
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on the dog. Yeah.
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That sounds like a whole bunch of bullshit.
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Well, and I was thinking, what I find is that as I watch more
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people train, as I'm in different arenas of, of training
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now, I see such a variety of where people come in at where
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their frustration tips. People too.
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Yeah, and what I see is rough handling or loud handling,
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either one. Yeah, handsy, rough, manhandling
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dogs, those types of things. Or yelling, screaming, those
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types of things. Typically, I don't see that
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translating into training. What I see is a meltdown on the
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human end in frustration and then for whatever reason,
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whether it's embarrassment or just physical pain and they
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can't do the kindness anymore or whatever the reason is, it's a
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meltdown on that side of the leash that transfers over to the
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recipient who is the dog. And I don't see a lot of times a
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lot of benefits from that, although sometimes I see the dog
12:03
wilt back and say, OK, I, I will follow instructions because this
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is no no longer fun and I'm a little scared of what's coming
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next. But I don't really see a ton of
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benefits in that. I'm telling you, I yelled at
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Lucy. I didn't see a lot of benefits
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from it, but it was always at a place where I felt like I had no
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other options. So I just exploded at her And
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then we came back and like, OK, how do I train this now?
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Yeah, 'cause. Yelling is not training.
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No, it's not. Frustration is like the number
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one thing for me, that of where it comes from and I, I don't
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know, I feel like my expectations for Tater are so
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much less than Tiago and Trin for sure.
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Just, I mean don't like jump in and shake your head yes before I
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even finish the sentence or anything.
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No. What on earth do you mean?
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But I I some may say that comes from Tater being adopted and
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Tiago and Tren being purchased. And I would say that that comes
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second. But what comes first is that
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Tiago and Tren are my dogs and Tater is not.
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So like, it's not about where I got them, it's about that I
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wanted them so that I could do XYZ.
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And Tater's ability to do XYZ was a surprise.
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A beautiful surprise, but a surprise.
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So like, it's more about not where they came from, but why I
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attained them. Does that make sense?
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It does. So then I put more pressure.
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Yeah, that. Makes me feel some type of way.
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Maybe sit with that. I also think about every single
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Foster and owned dog that I've ever had I have taught to sit
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out the door before we go out for a walk.
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Oh, interesting. And that's just like a non
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negotiable in my house. Like everyone has to sit and
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then they have to make eye contact with me and I have to
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give the OK before they go out the door.
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OK. And what's?
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Interesting is I've never approached that with
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frustration, even with even Jenny did it.
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The little black devil, she knew the rules and it was just AI
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mean. Lucy hated training new dogs on
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it because she was like, but I'm doing it like just let me go and
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and it's just such a matter of fact way to train it that I just
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bring them to the door. I say sit as soon as I start to
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open the door and their butt comes up.
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I close the door and then everybody goes back to a sit and
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I and we work on it until every single day they just sit and
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wait for me. And there's not a lot of treats
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involved in that one because the the driving force is to get to
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go for a walk. I've never had a foster dog or
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own dog that doesn't love going for walks.
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So that's kind of the driving force behind it.
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And so I just use that as their motivation.
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But I thought, man, if I could do that with my non negotiable
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and do it void of frustration or void of really any feelings at
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all one way or the other. It was just this is what we have
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to do. Like I have to put on my shoes
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before I go out for this walk. Like we have to sit at the door.
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It's I don't feel any sort of way about putting my shoes on to
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go for a walk. It's just part of the routine.
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And I thought, oh, if I could approach more training that way,
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I would probably be a lot kinder in training.
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Oh, this is just a thing that we have to do.
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It's a part of what we do. Yeah, and I'm not saying it
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works for everything, but I think it works for more than we
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think it will. Do you approach it that way?
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Like what is your driving force for teaching that?
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One thing because Lucy was a Door Dasher when I got her and
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then many many many of my fosters come in to me because
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they were found on the street. So likely they got out a door
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and their owners never came to to find them.
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Jenny was a door dasher. She made me run down the street
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probably like 5 times. My dad had to drive down the
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road and cut her off in his truck one time.
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She was. Black devil forever, right?
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Like it's true to her nature. Most of them were darters or
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dashers. And so then it just becomes
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like, OK, nobody gets to go out the door without permission.
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So do you think you're because it's a safety thing, that's why
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you're just like, this is the way it is and you don't, you're
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just like, this is a requirement because it's safety.
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Yes, but also, you know what, there's also a level of avoiding
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frustration because I also don't like to get my arm yanked off as
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everybody runs out the door together.
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And so if you have two dogs, especially at a time or three or
17:26
four, whoever you're walking, having all of them just run out
17:31
the door like Mad Men and you're just like yanking behind trying
17:35
to shut the door at the same time, Then it it automatically
17:39
almost goes to a frustration level for me.
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Like, everybody calm down. I gotta get the door shut.
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Like, and I don't want to start my walk that way.
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Like the walks are supposed to be fun and relaxing for me and
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the dogs. Yeah.
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So it's kind of a, a way to set us up for success as well.
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OK. So basically gentle parenting,
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gentle dogs. Do you think everyone who has
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kids that is a gentle parent is a gentle person with their dog?
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I wonder. I wonder, like I wonder if
18:11
people see it differently. I'm going to say yes because I
18:16
think so much, as we said, so much of the losing our mind
18:20
comes from a place of frustration.
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And the average person isn't a dark trainer, so they probably
18:28
don't. They don't have the tools in the
18:29
toolbox. They don't have the ability to,
18:32
like, teach something six different ways until it clicks.
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Yeah, I mean. That would be interesting to to
18:38
find out because I do also think some people are probably have
18:42
the tools to do gentle parenting with children and maybe not with
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dogs. Yeah, because they don't have
18:49
those tools in the toolbox or vice versa.
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Like, I get dogs, kids are tough.
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I'm sitting here thinking about a particular friend and client
18:58
of mine who I would consider a gentle parent.
19:01
And I worked with them so much on particular skills, one of
19:07
which was don't run out the front door and being able to
19:10
walk their dog on a leash. And when I taught them ways to
19:16
accomplish those tasks with positive reinforcement, there
19:20
was a lot of, oh, that makes sense.
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Oh, that makes sense. You know, so I think, I think
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it's probably just like an expertise thing of they don't
19:31
know how. And I will say, I think some
19:34
things that could probably help everyday people is just getting
19:38
better with timing. Like if you're watching yourself
19:40
train, videotape it. You know, if you're training
19:43
with your dog, videotape it so you can see your timing and
19:46
where it's off or, or those types of things.
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Also more meaningful rewards, either the appropriate award for
19:54
the dog. So I know with Lucy, I wish I
19:58
would have known that. I could up the reward or or
20:02
scale back the reward meaning of the meaningfulness of that
20:07
reward and do something as low value as.
20:10
For kibble, they're dog food. Yep.
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Yeah. And so, and I didn't do that.
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I just had whatever treats I got at the store and that's what she
20:20
worked for every day. And and when we first started,
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it was so frustrating getting bit again and again because she
20:28
was way too anxious over these treats from the store and she
20:33
just would lose her mind. And then she would throw every
20:36
trick at me and I would get frustrated or she just get my
20:40
whole hand when she was trying to get the treat.
20:42
That's all very frustrating. So knowing that you can level up
20:46
or level down your treats. Or just toss the treat on the
20:49
ground. Yeah, that too.
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Yeah, there's all sorts of options.
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Yeah. Also, thinking from a standpoint
20:57
of the things that you just said, like recording yourself,
20:59
getting better at timing, understanding, you know,
21:02
reinforcement strategies. If you get really good at those
21:08
things for the particular things that you want to teach, then
21:13
your training sessions will take less time because the dog will
21:18
make the connection that much faster and you will be able to
21:23
spend less time doing these tasks that you want to
21:28
accomplish with your dog. So definitely not myself, but
21:32
there are people out there who are excellent dog trainers and
21:36
they're training a particular task 5 minutes a day, you know,
21:39
because they're so good and so accurate with what they're doing
21:43
that the communication to the dog is crystal clear.
21:47
And they're like, oh, OK, got it, that's exactly what you
21:50
want, got it. And as that history goes on, the
21:54
learning history for the dog is, oh, exactly what they're asking
21:58
for is exactly what I'm going to give.
22:00
And they learn how to communicate with you even
22:03
better. And it just makes all of the
22:05
training sessions that much easier and that much shorter.
22:08
Yeah, definitely. And if you're listening to this
22:12
thinking, well, I'm not really training something specific, you
22:15
know, those types of thing. I'm just maybe frustrated with
22:18
my dog because they get crazy at night or they get zoomies or
22:21
they're inappropriate or whatever.
22:23
Another way to to kind of gentle parent that dog is to make sure
22:30
that they're getting the right enrichment along the way.
22:33
So is that that they need daily walks or is it that they just
22:38
need to sniff in your backyard with certain things hidden or
22:42
dig spots within your yard? So figuring out what enrichment
22:47
really works for your dog and maybe being on a rotation of
22:51
enrichment, maybe they get to dig on Mondays and then they get
22:55
to sniff on Tuesdays and they get walks on Wednesdays and and
22:59
so on. But tearing things up on
23:01
Thursdays? Like shredded Thursdays?
23:04
Yeah, I would say employ your kids if you have kids.
23:08
Hey, on Sundays we make frozen Kongs for Fluffy.
23:12
And you, you know, you and your kids get in there, they get
23:15
their hands dirty, they get to play, they get to make different
23:18
mixes for the dog diet pending. And they get to, you know, do
23:22
something that's kind of messy and kind of fun and they're
23:25
helping the dog. And then put them in the
23:27
freezer. Or in the morning, you free feed
23:31
out in the yard because you have one dog, not 3.
23:33
And you toss the kibble out in the yard.
23:36
Well, now you have your, your kid do it.
23:38
You know, there's a lot of like ways to kind of get creative and
23:43
employ your kids in that whole mix too, if you have both things
23:46
going on. Yeah, yeah.
23:49
So just making sure your dog actually has the enrichment that
23:52
they need. A lot of times that's going to
23:54
bring down the temperature of everyone in the house, so you're
23:57
not as frustrated because the dog is not being a crazy, crazy
24:01
dog. Well, and the the last thing
24:04
that I want is for someone who is already at their threshold,
24:11
human threshold, to then feel like they have all this
24:17
pressure. Well, and now I have to figure
24:19
out like what to do with my dog and blah, blah.
24:22
You know, I don't want that for anybody.
24:24
I want people to feel like, you know what, I got this under
24:27
control. I got a plan.
24:28
I know what I'm doing and throw some things together and you
24:33
just move on with your life because living with a dog should
24:36
be something that is joyous majority of the time and not a
24:43
thing that you have to do. You know they should add to your
24:46
life and you should add to theirs.
24:49
Yeah, absolutely. So I was thinking about too,
24:53
with gentle parenting, that there are wild animals that
24:58
learn from humans, humans who are not trainers, humans who are
25:05
not doing everything correctly, and animals that are not
25:09
necessarily gentle or tame or anything.
25:13
I was thinking about the deer in Asia, the wild deer in Asia who
25:18
bow at the temple because as people saw the deer bow, they
25:22
were like, oh, that's look, they're bowing.
25:25
Well, they were really shaking their head, you know, down, but
25:28
oh, they're bowing. And so then those deer got more
25:31
treats. And so guess what?
25:34
All the deer learn to do it. It's like the evolution of
25:37
things. Yeah, and I'm thinking, man, if
25:42
we could inadvertently teach wild animals to do that without
25:47
using force or being ugly about it, yeah, then what could we do
25:55
with an animal that trusts us, that loves us?
25:58
It kind of makes me think of how we were talking about in the
26:01
last episode, like how I was saying how I passively trained
26:03
things. Yeah, like, I passively train
26:06
things just going about my life. You know, my dogs learn things
26:11
because they trust me. And we have a relationship.
26:15
Every single time that I was teaching Trin the word office, I
26:19
wasn't treating her. I was literally just like
26:22
office. Like this is where we go.
26:24
You know. And I I mean, honestly, I don't
26:27
even know if I ever gave her any actual food reinforcement when
26:32
it came to learning that cue. So there's there's value in
26:37
keeping the frustration low by figuring out ways to do things
26:42
that are just sort of part of your day and not an added thing
26:45
that you feel like you have to do because life is heavy and
26:49
there's a lot of things. And so if there's ways that you
26:52
can just kind of like passively teach things to, I think that
26:56
there's a lot of value in that as well.
26:59
Yeah. So I would say to wrap it up,
27:03
gentle parenting is definitely easier with gentle dogs, but I
27:09
think it has a place with every dog.
27:12
Oh, that's a little mic drop right there.
27:18
Boom. It is true.
27:21
It is true. And I would say don't beat
27:23
yourself up if you do kind of get frustrated or whatever, just
27:28
take a breath, start again. There's no, we all lose our our
27:33
heads sometimes and and yell. But if we can just remember to
27:39
try to start from that place of being gentle and being kind and
27:44
being clear, then I think it's a lot easier for everybody.
27:49
Absolutely. If you've enjoyed this episode,
27:53
subscribe, rate and share us wherever you get your podcast.
27:57
Also come on over to Instagram and engage with us at Sometimes
28:01
Their Side Eye. Thanks for listening everybody.
28:04
Talk to you next time. Bye bye.