Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Genre Spotlight - Rhythm Tap

Transcript

Genre Spotlight - Rhythm Tap · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance, from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Today's genre spotlight episode features a style that's near and dear to many dancers' hearts.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Tap dance.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Tap dance may seem to come in many forms, from the classic tap of movie musicals to the percussive and grounded styles we see in other arenas.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: But when we get right down to it, we're all just trying to express ourselves through rhythm.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Join us today as we get serious about discussing tap dan.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: We are back again, Courtney.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: We are, we're back, and we have a genre spotlight episode.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, our second one ever.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Quickly becoming some of my favorite episodes so far this season.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like when we do that little recap at the end of the year, these are gonna come up because I really like getting very nitty-gritty about a genre and talking to pretty much experts in the field of those genres.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just really value the education that we're getting and that hopefully our audiences are getting as well.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we have some really great people today.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we do.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we always bring a lot of education over here on making the impact, but I think, like you said, we're really diving deeper into with the spotlights, diving deeper into specific genres of dance.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: And our very first one was all about Fossi.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're talking about tap.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically, the label of rhythm tap in the tap dance world, which we're gonna dive into very shortly, but before we do, let's hear from our sponsors.
• 2:00
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• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: If your dancer has a love for ballet and classical training and is interested in a distinctive seven-day summer intensive, then join us at Francisco Gala Danceworks Ballet Plus Intensive, scheduled for June 8th through the 14th, 2025, in sunny Miami, Florida.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Ballet Plus is a comprehensive program designed to help students establish a strong technical foundation in ballet, modern, and jazz.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: And if you attend the Ballet Plus Intensive this summer, then you'll have a chance to dance with me.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to return for my third year teaching jazz and musical theater at this incredible event, and we'll be thrilled to see you there.
• 3:27
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• 3:32
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• 3:37
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• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hope to see you in Miami this summer at Ballet Plus.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, Dance World, we're jumping into our very next genre spotlight episode.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed our very first one that launched a few weeks back, and that one was all about Fosse.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa, it was such a good one with some legends from the Fosse world that told us all about and shared all of their knowledge on that and working with Bob himself.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're switching gears and tackling a different genre of dance, and today we are covering tap dance.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And in the world of rhythm tap dance, we have two fantastic tap dancers and dance educators who are joining us here today on Making the Impact, and I cannot wait to learn more from them.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: The very first guest that I'm so thrilled to welcome, they are a brand new guest to our podcast, and they are a very old friend of mine.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: We go way, way, way back to the international tour of West Side Story.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And speaking of that, and we were youngins, y'all, like youngins, babies, on this tour where we traveled all across Europe performing original Jerome Robbins choreography.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: But you're probably thinking, wait, how is this person a tap dancer?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: West Side Story is a jazz and a ballet show.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they do it all, y'all, and they are doing so many great things for our tap dance world and swing and lindy hop community.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: They just do it all.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can't, I'm so thrilled that they're finally here on my podcast with me.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to welcome my dear friend Caleb Tyshu to the podcast.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Caleb.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Courtney.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Shall I say things about myself?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're about to learn all about you.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if you could share with the world more about you, where you grew up, your early dance training, any career credits that you'd like to share, and what you're currently working on, which I know you're doing a lot of things.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, hi, I'm Caleb.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Putnam County, New York.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a wonderful uh local dance studio called the Pulse Performing Arts Studio in Bedford Hills.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Jennifer Dell was my first teacher.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then I ended up being mentored for a number of years by a tap teacher named David Ryder, who actually was an amazing educator and taught a lot of people of kind of my generation how to tap dance.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then he became a Catholic priest, which was a real pivot.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: When David decided to become a priest, I know, real plot twist.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's a priest on Staten Island now.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of looking to figure out how to make dance part of my life.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I graduated high school as a junior.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: I moved to New York to take a gap year, and then I never got off that gap year.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am on gap year number 14 or something like that.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: But my first year in New York, Michelle Dorrence was forming her tap dance company, Dorence Dance, and I was one of the founding members.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I also danced for Dormesha Sombri Edwards, also known as Dormesha that year.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I danced for Cartier Williams that year.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I suddenly found myself very entrenched in the in the New York tap dance scene because I was young, I was cheap, and uh I was just kind of available all the time.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And like just to clarify, you were how old at this time?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was 17.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: You were 17 dancing with legends.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, get out of here, Caleb.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was just I was so excited to learn where I grew up, you know, I could take tap class maybe twice a week at most, but I could wake up and tap dance every single day in New York.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was also waking up taking ballet, Horton, contemporary.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was just kind of sponging it all in.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: The year after that, when I was 18, was the year that you and I toured Europe with West Side Story.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think people should hire 18-year-olds.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna throw it out there.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think we were all too young to be working on that tour, but whatever.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was a little older than you, but you were definitely the youngest one out there.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when I came back to New York, I just did that sort of omnivorous work for anyone, do anything kind of work, but tap dance has always been my kind of cornerstone.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'll fast forward a decade.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I I had a dance company with my name on it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've been presented at all the fancy name brands, arts places like the Kennedy Center and Lincoln Center and Jacob's Pillow and the Joyce and Irasa City Center works in process at the Guggenheim.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: We've toured nationally, we've toured internationally.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up working with a lot of high, high-class musical artist types.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I choreographed Regina Specter's Broadway residency, and I tap danced on her latest album, and I've tap danced on a track for Ben Folds, and I danced with a National Symphony Orchestra.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And last year I was the first, as far as I know, only tap dancer to ever do a tiny desk concert for NPR.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I've so I've been running around, and these days my life is still as a tap dancer, but I'm also kind of working as a director, choreographer at large.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: The two things I did most recently, one was a big swing dance show, Lindy Hop show called Swing Out, which has played three seasons at the Joyce in New York and is toured, I think, 18 cities.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big show.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's 22 people on stage.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then last year I also made a full-length version of a piece called Bzzz BZZZ, which uh features six tap dancers and two world champion beatboxers, and that will be coming back to New York next year.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that is kind of my life.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I still teach a little bit, not as much as I used to, but that that I think is the succinct life story I can provide.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good one.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you've done so much, and I've just had such a blast watching where your career has continued to take you and uh you being at the forefront of so many uh parts of our industry.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just been such I'm just so proud of you.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's from where we started to where we are now, like where we started from citadines to grindines or whatever Charles used to say on tour.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we but you were always you were always such a good dancer, and you've just kept up the quality of your dancing like forever, and it just keeps getting back to keep watching your videos online.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we can f we can fangirl about each other later.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Caleb is so sweet.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm so glad that you're here.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being on the pod.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, of course.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: All right, our next special guest who's joining us has been here before.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm thrilled to welcome them back to the podcast.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: They are a fantastic top dance educator, and they are also on faculty with Tremaine Dance Convention this season.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: You may remember them from season three, episode 69, Dance in College: The Pros and Cons.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to welcome Angela Carter to the podcast.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Angela.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's so awesome to be back.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I should go into a little bit about myself, I guess.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I grew up in Ohio, and as literally as soon as I graduated from college, I moved to Los Angeles, you know, in pursuit of the dream.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I started out performing television and film.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: There's a Disney movie, you know, all different kinds of stuff.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: But I really found my passion in teaching in choreography.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: Greg Russell was one of my mentors in Los Angeles.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so I ended up joining his company.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then we actually became really good friends and built Tap Into the Network.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: And Tap Into the Network is a is a in-studio intensive.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we kind of create these expansive training and performance events for students across the country.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: And we're headed into our 18th year, which is great.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's insane.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Every time I say it, I'm like, what?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's been fun to just kind of develop that idea and build it into what it is today.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: We started an apprentice program.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a pre-professional container where students can kind of, you know, develop and grow and get ready for the real world, as as you both are are familiar with.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then we produce a huge show for them at the end of our season.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's called Tonality, and it's a high-energy stage show.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: We put a lot of focus into you know, production and the experience and all of that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: So that's been a fun journey.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: As you stated, I wrote the genius guide to college dance programs.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm actually in the editing process for the next version.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just, yeah, we're we're in a in a fun place.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, of course, the tremane opportunity has been so fun.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: The faculty and the students are incredible.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm really having a great time.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: So if anyone out there in podcast land is attending a tremane event this season, be on the lookout for Angela.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: You might get to tap dance with her there.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: So excited to have you back on the pod.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, thank you so much for having me.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: I love being here.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you again, uh, both of you for joining us today.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all are the perfect guests for this podcast.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have been really excited to continue to cover tap in different ways throughout the seasons.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we really wanted to hone in on rhythm tap specifically, but you know, rhythm tap lives in the broader world of tap.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm sure there's conversations to be had about whether that's even a thing, whether we even want to call it, you know, rhythm tap as opposed to anything else.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure we'll jump into it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I think let's start at the very beginning.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to hear from both of you sort of just like your overall thoughts about tap in general and why it is so hard to label tap in certain ways.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's history to that.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious, just kind of general thoughts wherever you want to start, whoever wants to start.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll kick it off and say I always kind of giggle at the at the label rhythm tap because it implies that there's non-rhythm tap.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: The the not rhythmic tap dancing.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: No rhythms.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand, I think what people mean, it seems like there's this too broad category thing where people say there's rhythm tap and then there's theater tap.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But theater tap involves rhythm.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are very there are very few people working in tap shoes who are not interested in rhythm or percussion.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean someone's doing some avant-garde stuff out there, doing something very experimental, arrhythmic, but I'm pretty sure all people who are wearing most people who are wearing tap shoes are interested in attaching their sounds to beats and making nice composition and nice music.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it also implies then that rhythm tap can't be theatrical.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about, of course, the way that uh musical theater or theater or Broadway has changed over the years.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about the people who have choreographed tap dance on Broadway in the last five years.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking of Michelle Dorrance doing Flying Over Sunset, I'm thinking of Ayodelli Cassell doing the tap choreography for Funny Girl, thinking of DeWitt Fleming Jr.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: doing the recent choreography for Wonderful World Broadway.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: These are all people who would not uh self-identify, I imagine, as theater tap choreographers or theater tap dancers, and yet here's their work now being presented at the pinnacle of theater quote on Broadway.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what is what does that do to our to our silly little label, like, well, this is rhythm tap and this is theater tap, if rhythm tap is in a theater.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's also like so much historical precedent.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I'm talking about like what happened in the last five years, but you know, I think we think of Gregory Hines in the or let's say Savion Clover, let's say Sammy Davis Jr.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: in the in the broader uh uh genre of rhythm tap.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: But Gregory Hines, Savion Glover, Sammy Davis Jr., all these people were on Broadway.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: All these people were theater performers.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I usually just kind of chuckle and like uh unfortunately I'm like a little dismissive of that term.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, yeah, whatever.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I understand that there are some differences between what the the styles of these dances.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying one has style and one doesn't.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying one has rhythm and one doesn't, but I definitely understand that there are these these uh these pretend verticals that we've created, and mostly labels are just like a quick way of getting to the idea of something, you know.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh like me saying, Oh, I'm vegetarian, but like I eat fish sometimes, you know?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there are sometimes we just use short-term uh labels to kind of get at things quicker.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's such a brilliant uh analogy.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think because we have so many dance studios listening, it's it's kind of like jazz, you know, like jazz has you got street jazz, you got jazz funk, you got, you know, musical theater jazz, you have all these different kinds of styles within the genre.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same here.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think tap is in such an expansive place and really always has been.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I think uh I think it's just one big, huge uh pot of brilliance, to be honest.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: I I think you you can kind of think about, you know, musically, musically for me is kind of where the the styles kind of define themselves.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I I I think it's just all one big happy thing for me.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you referenced some of the Broadway shows, especially recent ones, because I think that when people think of like theatrical Broadway tap dance, it's immediately 42nd Street.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is like what they're talking about.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And there's so much other and I mean I guess going there, like what is what style of tap would you label 42nd Street?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a style?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think there's tap dance often exists.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I know we're supposed to talk about rhythm tap, but excuse my my my my sidebar into theater.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to go as the conversation takes you, so please do.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Here it's gonna take me.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Tap dance in musicals is almost exclusively done in a period setting, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like there, there it's it's less often that a musical set in the present day or in the future or even in the recent past will include tap dance.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if you do a musical that's set in the early 1900s, the first half of the 1900s, there's bound to be a tap dance components, right?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because we associate 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s, even into the 60s popular music with some presence of tap dance.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that happens is that tap dance will be used in a theater show just as like the idea of oh, there's a tap dance number.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking of the SpongeBob musical or something rotten, or the shows where it's or Aladdin, where they have the 15-minute friend like me sequence, and they say, Well, now of course there's gonna be tap dance, but it's actually not necessarily about tap dancing, it's about it's about tap dance being in a musical because that's what you expect of musicals.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Musicals do this thing where they're very like self-referential, and so I think when musicals like to be self-referential, they say, Well, here comes the tap dancing and the kick line and the quick costume change, and it's just part of like the sh the the shtick or like the or the razzle dazzle.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like just part of the the gag.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I'm not uh nostalgic for earlier days of anything really, but I do sometimes think like there were times where like tap dancing has been historically front and center in theater, but there were also times where it wasn't front and center in theater, and I think similar things are happening now.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: There are times where tap dance is being sort of referred to in like a in a not my personal favorite way, and then there are times where like when Jared Grimes was in after midnight, they just let him go out and take a five minute solo every night, and it was kind of stunning.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that was tap dance for tap dance's sake.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't advance narrative, it didn't, it didn't set us in a period, there was no there was no theater magic, it was just like look at this person who's really, really good at tap dancing.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: If your dancer is looking for a unique seven-day summer intensive that focuses on ballet, modern, and jazz, then consider joining us at Francisco Gala Danceworks Ballet Plus Intensive.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Set to take place from June 8th through the 14th, 2025, in Miami, Florida.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Ballet Plus transcends the typical summer intensive experience.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Tailored to accelerate the development of youth and collegiate dancers, their curriculum prepares them for a successful summer, whether they're attending an intensive, competing nationally, or redefining their skills at home in anticipation of college programs or professional alter ships.
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• 20:05
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• 20:32
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• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that is more of what we see broadly across the competition stage.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'd like to hear a little bit more about your thoughts about that and like I guess how how we can as educators, because both of you are educators, allow both of those kinds of tap dancing to be as important as each other.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think in some places it's very important that tap feels like it's in the theater and it's in the musical and it f forwards the narrative and things like that.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then maybe sometimes the groups don't understand each other.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if we want kids these days that are coming up to be the next professionals, whether they're on Broadway or not, how can we give respect and have respect for both kinds of tap dancing?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're clearly a little bit different, even though maybe the vocabulary is the same, the the feeling behind it is different.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think in a competitive setting, it's really gonna start with the judges, to be honest.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of our competition companies, please don't hate me, but we don't hire and tr train or have a great understanding on the judging panel as a whole of what we're looking at all of the time.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, that equates to not really knowing what to say.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: In your feedback to the students.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Then that equates to the scoring's not that high, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Then that runs into the kids are getting frustrated and the kids are not, you know, excited to compete their their tap pieces anymore.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know studios who don't, you know, number one, tap is not mandatory in the studio.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then number two, they just don't do it because they don't score well, which is wild.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, we've had these discussions, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I think, I think a good foundational point to that is, you know, at least one of the judges has to know, you know, a flat from a shuffle.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like we have to be able to say, yeah, we have to be able to give other, you know, constructive feedback and not just be complimenting on tap shoes.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it has to, I think we really have to pay attention to that as a whole, as a community, because I just know so many students in particular who just get so frustrated about their experience.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's really their first kind of taste with this.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like a broader, a greater understanding of the whole art form, you know, is respectful of the students, you know what I mean?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that might boost their confidence a little bit and make them a little more excited to go go on that journey.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: We see it all the time.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the amount of times dance studios tell me that dan tap is an elective, which is wild because I feel like growing up in my era of dance training in the 90s and even the 80s, like tap it was ballet tap jazz.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was 100%.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: That was what you did when you register at a studio.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And like contemporary didn't exist.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, lyrical was just hitting the scene.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but that we we eventually got to those genres later.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: You had to have like those foundational styles of dance under your belt, and it was a mandatory requirement.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we've gotten a little lax with tap being an elective and not seeing the value that it brings in other styles of dance that you're training in to make you a better dancer overall across all styles of dance.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I and it's the same thing with ballet.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like people don't compete ballet at comp because it's judged so hard and it's either right or it's wrong.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to get a gold, which is the lowest adjudication you can get because, you know, it's ballet.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd rather just do my dances that I'm good at.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the same thing that we see happening with tap dance, which then devalues it.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and going kind of back to what you were saying, Leslie, about like the contrasting styles of like this label debate of a theatrical Broadway style versus a like grounded rhythm style of tap, and that we see more of the quote unquote rhythmish style at competition, because the other style that feels more Broadway and theatrical is deemed as old school now.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not cool to do anymore in the competitive space.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yet when you go to New York or you go to an audition for Broadway, you're probably doing that style more than you're doing the hoofing and the rhythm and all the other, which if you can do that, you can probably do each.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that we have to make sure we're giving our it depends on who's training you, but I think it is important to have dancers dabble and experience all styles of tap dance and change it up a bit because and tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm not exactly sure.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I learned kind of a little bit of both when I was doing tap.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like that can we like discuss what we what some differences or similarities of these styles that we're talking about?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and what comes to mind for me is a little bit more like for theatrical style, like 42nd Street, a little bit more upper body clarity of the arms, cleanliness of the arms, a little bit more lifted in the in the style and the execution of the footwork versus rhythm or hoofing is a little bit more into the floor, a little bit more grounded.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Can we like expand on that a bit more?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: And correct me, because I'm probably wrong.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think Angela and I are both looking at each other like, oh, I don't know.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's it's it's kind of it's kind of messy.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I think there's some clear differences in what we expect stylistically from rhythm tap dancers versus theater tap dancers, if if if there ever were such a thing.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have this idea that theater tap dancers need to hold their upper body in a certain way and make certain shapes with their body as they dance.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't have those same expectations from from the rhythm tap genre.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I'm going back on myself a little bit to say, like, I actually I think rhythm tap can be as stylish, more stylish, as presentational, more presentational than theater tap dance.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a difference of aesthetic for the most part.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say actually the bigger thing is like I think often in the theater tap genre uh there's less rhythmically, compositionally adventurous choreography.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds fair, yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the simplest way to put it is like theater tap dance will very infrequently mess with 16th notes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be like swinging, flaps, shuffles, and then like some triplets to fill it out.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas uh rhythm tap in 2024, whatever that means, will often like run the gamut of really adventurous, really unique and often very like dense syncapated rhythms that run through 16th notes, double time triplets, single time triplets.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it's it's just a little more like rhythmically complex.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that is like sort of the the the value's been put on the composition or the choreography or the execution of really unique choreography, and theater tap will often be a little more patterned, a little less dense, a little less syncopated, a little less whatever.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's this idea that it should be presented or performed in some way that involves like some like kind of traditional porte-bras where your arms look like you're like floating in a pool, and then like at some point you'll do a maxi forward and you'll like make a straight line.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to go back, I I'm so I'm there's no place for me to speak about competition.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't been to a competition in like two decades.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: However, from what I remember, is you're right, there is this idea that the judging panel is not picked to be on the judging panel for their experience to tap dance.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they they can only judge dance by the qualities or by the values or by the experiences that they have.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: So they look at a tap dancer who isn't straightening their legs or straightening their arms and saying, oh, that seems like undercommitted, underperformed dancing, when really the technique or the pedagogy or the aesthetic of rhythm tap and theater tap doesn't necessarily involve clean, straight lines, doesn't necessarily involve eight pirouettes.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't blame these judges because they're just using the knowledge they have.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I do blame these judges because we would certainly never put a panel of tap judges and ask them to score a hundred pieces of lyrical or jazz dance.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the thought experiment for me is like we would never have it the other way and be okay with it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we probably shouldn't be okay with it as it is.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think too, speaking to what Angela was saying and you what you just said, Caleb, you know, being a judge, and like I'm a well-versed tap dancer.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I studied under Robert Reed.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't get any better than that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: However, the the complexity, as you were saying, Caleb, of what some of the rhythm tap, especially if you're very good, is presented.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't talk about that.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I can't give you feedback on that because it's it's above my ability in three minutes where you've just made one million sounds in eight counts.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't pull out a flat ball change, a shuffle ball change, a maxi forward, a double time step, but I want to be able to name these steps.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a judge, I feel like I have more capability to judge a theatrical tap because it's so much clearer to me.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can absolutely value what you just did on stage and recognize as a tap educated person that that was amazing.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I probably can't give you feedback on it though, because it's too much in one three-minute piece to do that.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really struggle with that and wanting to be a better judge, but at the same time, like not even knowing how to get to that point to access any valuable feedback for a dancer in that position.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to just sit back and enjoy it because if you're good, you're good.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna tell you that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when when I went to competitions as a kid, I would always do like my little self-choreographed tap solo.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And like we we get the do they still do this, like the voice recordings of the judge.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and they would there would just be like a minute of silence, and then they just go, and then they'd go, Woo!
• 30:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that would be the kind of and I'd be like, Well, that's not, you know, I was kind of hoping for like actually some thoughts, but then you know, uh then beggars can't be choosers, and then they'll be like, We you really should like point your feet when you shuffle.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be like, I'm not like over.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I didn't want your feedback.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to throw a mention this uh a little bit, which is I think our expectations of style and presentation, especially when it comes to tap dance, there's a there's a relatively gendered aspect of this.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I find this when and I and I talk to young students about this, because like I grew up as a boy, and when you're a boy, the expectations of your ability to present or perform or have style are very different.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's like there's a sort of trope of like talented boy tap dancer at the studio, looks a mess, but can do really cool steps, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And but but then there's this new generation of incredible young female tap dancers who are expected to have as killing steps and tricks and moves and all those things, they're supposed to be as good, but then there's this expectation that they are going to like present or perform in a particular way.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And these are like these are gendered ideas, like like like young girls can't leave the house with their hair being a mess, but then when a young boy leaves the house with their hair a mess, it's like cool and stylish, and we love it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I also think there's like a little bit of a thing there, which is I sometimes think that we let rhythm tap dancers, if there ever were such a thing, we let rhythm tap dancers get away with not having style because we're so impressed by the difficulty or complexity of their stuff when really the best rhythm tap dancers, if there ever were such a thing, have style.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Again, let's look up Jared Grimes, let's look up Michelle Dorrance, let's look up Dormesha Summers Edwards.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: These are all people have a really developed sense of style and performance quality, and they're doing the hardest stuff you've ever seen.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think there there should be a little push there on our young students to say, like, just because you're doing a hard step doesn't mean that you don't get to think about style performance quality and expressiveness.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you for that.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: We need that because this that statement can apply to every style of dance, everybody.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just tap.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: So make sure that you know, I need I don't care how high your leg goes in your bot mod, if you're not like giving it your all and it's coming from the heart and there's no performance behind it, it's like cool, you bot mod.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I also I I can't stop talking, apparently.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: But one more thing.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: I also think, you know, whether or not tap dance is required mandatory at a studio, I think something that we all value in a performer is musicality.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think tap dance, if even if your dream is to be a ballet dancer, a modern dancer, a jazz dancer, roquette, fraud date, whatever, a greater understanding of musicality can go a long way to advancing your experience and your quality as a performer.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's like everyone's taken acro, everyone can do a backflip, we love it.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And yet the performers that we seem most attached to, the ones that kind of move us, tend to have more, tend to have more experience with musicality.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think actually of like Tyler Peck, who's like kind of in enraptured the world with her like beautiful dancing.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like Tyler Peck is an incredibly musical dancer.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we like Tyler Peck.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: We like Tyler Peck because she's musical.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: She's of course beautiful and she's got great lines and can do all the pirouettes, but she's also just like a really musically smart dancer.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sometimes think if people spent more time studying tap dance, they would also have a greater understanding of musicality and they would really just bump up all styles of dance that they choose to perform.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Agreed.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: I preach it all the time.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that my jazz dancing and my all-around dancing is better because I grew up taking tap and I ref I know how to explain better as an educator the musicality that I'm trying to get across because I took tap and I understand music theory better, and I understand my music better, and I hear different things to choreograph to better because I took tap.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's when I go back to like the ballet tap jazz.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it was a I feel like it used to be a requirement for those reasons to even if you're not the best tap dancer and you're struggling, it's at least helping you find your timing and musicality.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: At a minimum, that's what it's helping you figure out.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't choose to continue on with that, at a minimum, every dancer should experience a handful of years of tap dance under their belt before you get rid of it in your life.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know, um, Angela, you mentioned who you uh studied under, which was Greg Russell, and I'm sure other people, but I want to hear from both of you really like, because I think the thing about tap, you know, every dancer should always reference back to who taught them.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like I always I really believe in like speaking the name of the people who came before us so that we can always have the oral history.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: But like in tap, it's very, very important for that to happen.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: That is how it came about in the first place.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I want you each to speak just a little bit about who influenced you and how that influences how you put yourself into the world as a tap person.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Growing up, let's see, my studio, we trained under the Al Gilbert technique.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then I ended up Me too.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's a c it's classic.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: I ended up assisting him and I think I'm on grade nine.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, so that that's kind of the the foundation.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: When I was old enough to start running around to festivals, I grew up in Ohio, so it was we had to travel everywhere for everything.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I ended up assisting Henry Letang on a at a at a festival and Pat Rico.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, like some really super exciting legends in our in our industry, our art form.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: But then when I moved to Los Angeles, that's when Jason Samuel Smith was there.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: He was in LA for a brief period of time and it was like Christmas because we could go take, you know, some some good stuff there on a regular basis.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, Chloe, I worked with her both in training, but also with the the syncopated ladies.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then just friends, friends in the industry.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: I I just feel like we we inspire each other over the years.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: We run into each other at events all the time, and it's like a family reunion.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a really, it's really an awesome community.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're one of the only communities that has that history component still and has such respect for that history component.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: But then I feel like the relationships and the respect for each other even now and this present day is is really unique.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Caleb, tell me, tell me a little bit more about your uh your history and who you were studying with and how how they influenced you and made you into the tap tap dancer you are today.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I shouted out my first teachers, uh Jennifer Dell and David Ryder.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I also should mention that I studied with Jimmy Tate when I was in high school.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Jimmy Tate was one of the original tap dance kids.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, cool.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: With Alfonso Rivero and Stevanian Glover.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I moved to New York, I became I and I went to two tap festivals growing up.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I went to Tap City, the New York City Tap Festival, and I went to Tap Kids.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the ones that were commuting distance uh from my house.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I moved to New York, I really fell in with Michelle Dorrence and Dorence Dance uh and had opportunities to work with Jason Samuel Smith and Ormesha and Cartier Williams, and I was just kind of I was just kind of in that young New York Tap dance scene.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And but I also was working in musical theater.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, after I did West Side Story with Miss Courtney Ortiz, I did White Christmas with Randy Skinner, and I did 42nd Street with uh Kelly Barclay.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but my my biggest inspirations for me, I mean, of course, uh when I was growing up at David Ryder's studio, the first 15 minutes of every lesson was tapping street time.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we went to his big blue cabinet that had like 200 VHS tapes in it, and he would say, Okay, the focus of the month is Jimmy Slide.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he would and he would give us the information the first week, and weeks two, three, four, he would quiz us, okay, was Jimmy Slide's real name?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: James Godbolt.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Who was his dance partner?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Jimmy Mitchell, what were they called?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: The Slide Brothers.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: What was Jimmy Slide famous for?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sliding, etc.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: etc.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'd watch clips together.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like watching footage, watching clips is like something that tap dancers do.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and it's it's not out of obligation, it's not out of what's right, it's actually to understand the history of this dance is to be in better conversation with it at the present.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course, tap dance has an incredibly long and complex history because it dialogues with race in America.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's a dance of black people in America that was like kind of instantly co-opted and appropriated uh successfully and unsuccessfully by everyone else.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And now we find ourselves in this like really beautiful world where kind of everyone's doing it, but we're still aware of it being a historically black dance.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like actually I feel a greater push of people finding better ways to acknowledge and honor and respect that tradition, or at least a a greater interest in acknowledging and honoring and respecting that tradition, even if people aren't always doing it in in a way that seems great, what have you.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: All that to say, my I'd say the people that I continue to go back to are Brenda Buffalino, who's uh who's become a a friend and mentor of mine, mostly like artists to artists.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we don't spend time with our shoes on, but we talk on the phone for like three hours every few months.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Sam Weber from the Bay Area has become like my sort of technical guru.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I became really obsessed with a relaxed ankle technique, which came from Stan Kahn.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and so that's been a big thing.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: But also growing up, the person who I kind of idolized the most was Diane Walker, um, who still teaches at Tap Festival.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: So he just has like the most beautiful, buttery, incredible phrasing and just way of dancing, which is from the Leon Collins legacy.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, my time dancing with Michelle and Dormesha and Cardi, and basically everyone that I've interacted with, Angela's saying, like the kind of your peer group, your peer group and the and the people you work with, whether for a long period or a short period, they they just really impact who you are as a dancer.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are lots of people I'm not naming who have impacted me in pretty substantial ways.
• 40:49
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• 40:52
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• 41:10
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• 41:13
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• 41:17
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• 41:23
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• 41:28
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• 41:35
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• 41:43
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• 41:48
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• 41:55
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• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: We can't wait to see your dance.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love this.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is so, so inspiring.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: And to hear who you've all connected with, who you've had the opportunity to train underneath, and to see who you are now as tap dancers and how much work you've put into your craft.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: It is just so beautiful.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: And for all of our listeners out there, we will have clips.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: Let's we'll put tons of of tap dance clips into our Facebook group um in our community so you can get an idea as to some of these names that we're referencing and see it for yourself and continue to educate that history.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I would love to uh go back to the dancers that the current dancers that are out there who maybe have interest in tap, maybe uh maybe they don't have access to tap, maybe they have tap, but it's not at the level that they want or expect at their studio.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: What are your recommendations that you can give to them on how they can find those opportunities if they don't have the access, or maybe they want to take their tap dancing to that next level?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: Should they be training in it every single day, like we say with ballet, to get to the next place?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or should they be seeking out the festivals and prioritizing that in their training?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any advice for those young tap dancers who are aspiring to be like y'all one day?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: I definitely think looking on the internet and doing the research and finding events, there's so much.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my God, when I was coming up, there was nothing you guys.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why you created your event.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100,000 percent.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's really and truly why we created it.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so, but now there's so much everywhere.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody's, you know, creating these really unique experiences for tap dancers right now.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the more exposure young dancers can have.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: To all of these different powerhouses.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think you just do it all.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, you you plan it out.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: One year you go to this event, or, you know, then the next couple of months you hit that event.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that versatility and training is going to serve, serve everyone so strongly.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, you have to kind of be a sponge when you're there.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: Have your phone out, record the rudiments.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like practice.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: You have to kind of be, I guess, proactive about your training journey because there are, there are many, many times when the students kind of maybe plateau at the studio or they they reach a point where their teacher's like, uh, well, I don't have anything else to teach you.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that that's when we have to take our responsibility for ourselves to seek, seek out what's there.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: And they're definitely there, and they're all over the place now.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the benefit that the kids have these days.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna bump up everything that Angela said.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: One, these kids have it so easy.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: They have the internet, you know, like you know, you need to be passing old like Burns DVDs of this one tap clip, like in the back of your friend's car.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I got this Xavion documentary that aired on P, you know, whatever.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's so different now.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's on YouTube, everything's on Instagram and TikTok, no excuses.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm bumping up that.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm bumping up you need to practice.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would rather someone take one tap class a week and practice two more times that week than take three tap classes and never practice.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think tap dance, if tap dance is like any musical instrument in that you need to spend time by yourself reflecting on your lesson.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you take vocal lessons, or let's say it's like you take piano lessons, you you don't take five piano lessons a week, you take one piano lesson a week, and then you practice every day afterwards.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think tap dance, the most successful tap dancers I know, the people who have progressed most efficiently, most successfully, are people who have had substantive time by themselves, or at least in some sort of little practice group or something.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: But just like going to class, you uh Angela says only like you need to be proactive about your own progress as a dancer.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just taking class isn't gonna make you progress.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: You taking ownership and responsibility over your own progress, on top of taking class, having good teachers, going to festivals, going to events, that is what will make you succeed.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree again with Angela, she just said everything.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Go to like events a year, probably.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just if only to like crush your ego a little bit, because you're like, I'm the biggest fish in this small pond, I'm the per the best person in my advanced tap class at my studio.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then just go to one festival, just go to one event, just go to one gathering uh at the at the watering hole with other tap dancers, and you'll realize how much further you have to go, and it'll inspire you.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, like going on TikTok and Instagram and looking at some good videos of tap dancers will do that.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something about the the community feeling of being in person, standing next to someone and saying, Wow, you're so good, I want to be that good, so that when I see you in a year, I'm as good as as you are now, or I'm I'm closer to where you are now, or something like that.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, Angela said it all, and I'm just seconding everything.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Lucy.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, I mean, it's I feel like there people do get to that point where like I'm the best in my class, I'm I'm the best.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: But then even when you're the best, like even talking to you guys who are like markedly way better than me, I'm like, y'all are still talking about how much you learn while you're still doing it now as a professional.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just said, I just learned about the loose ankle technique.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's always something to learn.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's why being in community is valuable because somebody's doing something differently.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like, oh man, you got how many sounds in that wing?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: How?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me how.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they're doing something slightly different, and you're like, oh my God, mind blown.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I just I really love to hear that for for the young people, the young people out there, the youths who still need to be ego checked sometimes in like the most loving way possible, you know?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: The ego check is real.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think that a lot of dancers get safe and comfortable in their home studio.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, like we kind of just said to everyone in the dance world, the amount of access now to dance is absolutely everywhere.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: The amount of dance conventions that tour the country and come to small towns that you can see Angela in like every town in America this year.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Literally, like it is accessible.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, is is it is it an investment?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, training is an investment.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like there is it's going to cost you some money to attend these events, absolutely.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: But you're going to learn so much, be inspired.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be a good reality check and a motivational check for you to be in those rooms.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I think it like the social media aspect is good and bad because it does give us that access and and inspires us and sees others and see what they're doing.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: But it also could, it's I I think like what you mentioned, Caleb, about being in the room with the others and and you being there, not hiding behind your phone anymore, but now you being in that room and seeing, can you keep up?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Can you do this?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Are you at the level that you think you're at?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just because you're the best at your studio, there's always more to be had.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there's only so much that your studios can give you.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's going to be a point where our dance studios are essentially setting the groundwork out.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: They're laying the foundation for us across all genres of dance.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Then it's a matter for you to put in the work and seek out those additional opportunities once you get to a certain level.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And all of us have done that in our professional careers by leaving our small towns and going to the big cities to continue our education.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that it's going to get to a point, but now that our dance world has grown so much where you can start doing that at a younger age, thanks to festivals and conventions and intensives that tour around the country.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Can I also just flag one mistake that I think that dance students make pretty frequently?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's an honest mistake.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's no one's fault.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: You go to a convention, you take class with Angela Carter, you learn a combo, it's hard.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: You mostly get it, and then you leave the convention and you never think about that combo again.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: You go back the next year.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Angela teaches a new combo, but it has elements of the old combo, maybe, and you have not improved between last year and this year because you were satisfied with only getting 60% of last year's combo.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of like, because I'm thinking like it is a lot of it is an investment, it is money to do these things.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not like squeezing all of the juice out of the orange, that's that's on you or your parents or what have you.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because there like I think what was great about us living in a sort of vacuum of lack of social media or lack of like just overwhelming content is like I went to a convention as a kid, learned one combo, and I spent the next six months practicing that combo, which meant by the time I came back to that combo, I had squeezed all of the life out of it in the best.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: You still remember that combo.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: I do, you know what I mean?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably still in there somewhere because you spent time on it.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, how wonderful that there's this like kind of vast library of experience and knowledge and exercises and combos and all these things.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that should be balanced with also trying to make the most of what you get.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: And especially like if you're you're a student who's maybe a little geographically isolated, you don't feel like you're necessarily challenged really deeply on a regular basis in your tap class at your studio.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: But when you go to a convention and you find yourself challenged or or or you find your ego checked for a second or something's difficult, then go home and like don't be satisfied with just kind of getting 50% of it.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like keep working on it so that the next time you see whatever that step is or whatever that the next time you see it, you've gotten there.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I want to say something too that like is is dear to me right now because of the time of life that I'm in, which is still have a bum ankle.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Can't do anything anymore, really.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't go to a jazz class right now.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can't go to a ballet class right now.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: My flexibility's gone.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: My I all of it's kind of gone.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what I did do recently is go to a tap class because the investment that I put into my tap training back in the day, I can go back.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: The rudiments come back.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: My body, my body can still access those things.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: My body can't access a hitch-kick layout.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's right.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: I can't access a you know, four pirouettes.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, but tap I could access.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really dear and wonderful to me because I was like, oh my God, maybe I can go back and do something.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm 85, you see all these tap heads who got honorary doctorates and were dancing until their 80s.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care that they can't do the million count wing anymore, but they can do a flat ball change and feel joy, you know?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is one of my favorite, my favorite things about our art form.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a long game, it's one of the only performance arts that you actually get better as you get older, right?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't happen with ballet, really.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't happen with jazz.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: It does in some ways, but overall, tap dance, you can always come back to it.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: You can always be improving.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: You can leave for a couple of years, you can come back.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's already in that muscle memory.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I really feel you on that, and I love it for that reason.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: I always encourage dancers to be versatile in their training.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think one subject or genre favors and helps out the next.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, some of my most exciting opportunities in the in the industry have come as a result of being versatile and as a result of maybe, maybe like a jazz choreographer knowing who I am, or, you know, a hip hop choreographer knows, you know what I mean?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: Just from different training and different relationships.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: So versatility is always a huge point for me.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, just have as much fun with it as possible.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think we are so serious and so focused these days.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want everyone to remember that tap is fun, it's happy, it's joyful, it's self-expression.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: So just allow yourself to be vulnerable in that space and have the best time with it.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: Final thought Tap dance is great, even if you don't have aspirations of being a professional tap dancer over the course of your life.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are things to be learned about yourself, about dance, about music, from studying, experiencing, tap dance.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you enjoyed our latest genre spotlight all about rhythm tap.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to follow our guests on social media.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: You can find Caleb on Instagram at CalebTycher and Angela at angelacarter.co.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: And check out Caleb's upcoming projects and performances on their website at calebture.net.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: And learn more about Angela's Tap Into the Network Intensives on their website at TapintotheNetwork.com.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow MakingThe Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
• 55:18
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• 55:24
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• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Join now at Impact Dance Adjudicators.com/slash Platinum Premium or click the link in our show notes.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Attention all dancers! Looking for some outside expertise to fine-tune your dance before hitting the competition stage this season?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: Then check out IDA's online judges critiques.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: Our seasoned judges will provide you with the video critique of your routine, just like you'd receive at competition.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: But with IDA's online judges' critiques, we take it one step further with our post-critique additional feedback.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: Your judge will go through your routine again, pausing the video to give you even more detailed and personalized feedback.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: You can even request a judge that specializes in your style of dance.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: This game-changing service has helped countless dancers prepare for the competitive stage, and it's available year round.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: With critiques starting at only$35, what are you waiting for?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Click the link in our show notes or visit our website at Impact Dance Adjudicators.com slash one line critique to learn more and submit your dance today.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: Season six is on a roll with some more great episodes coming your way, including diversity on judging panels, audience and dressing room etiquette, and the over sexualization of kids in dance.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned for some more great episodes on making the impact.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next week.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Until then, keep dancing.