Latest / MUBI Podcast / THE TASTE OF THINGS — Alison Roman savors the opposite of a chef movie

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THE TASTE OF THINGS — Alison Roman savors the opposite of a chef movie · MUBI Podcast

• 0:00
  Heads up, this episode contains a little bad language, a lot of bad-boy behavior, and spoilers.
• 0:10
  Alright, so my definition of a guilty pleasure is a movie so entertaining you can't stop watching, even if you think what it's trying to say is totally ridiculous.
• 0:20
  And for me, the latest addition to the canon is the 2015 movie, Burnt.
• 0:26
  It's about a tough, driven dude named Adam Jones, played by Bradley Cooper.
• 0:30
  Under the opening credits, he tells us, in voiceover, that he used to be a star chef in Paris, but he's an addict. So...
• 0:37
  Then I destroyed it all.
• 0:37
  My devils chased me out of Paris,and I washed up in New Orleans. New Orleans, where he's now spent three years sobering up and serving a self-imposed"sentence of hard labor".
• 0:50
  He's vowed to shuck a million oysters at a dive restaurant.
• 0:53
  And today's the last day of my penance. We watch as Cooper shucks his millionth oyster, eats it, then grabs his leather jacket and quits in the middle of his shift.
• 1:03
  Where the hell are you going?
• 1:03
  Hey! So Chef Adam may now be sober, but clearly he's still a total asshole.
• 1:14
  In fact, when he immediately jets to London and starts recruiting cooks to help him open a new high-end restaurant, Adam's signature move is to be a dick to them right off the bat.
• 1:24
  And his first advice to his new colleagues is they should kind of be dicks right back at him.
• 1:29
  Trying to make a point.Resume is great.
• 1:30
  This lamb's fucking fantastic.But you lack arrogance.And to be in my kitchen, you have to defend yourself. And yet he's irresistible.
• 1:38
  Everyone ends up working for him and they can't help wanting to sleep with him.
• 1:42
  Everyone.
• 1:43
  All genders. All sexual orientations.
• 1:46
  You know, when I lie awake at night and list my regrets.You're one of them.I say to myself,"Simone, you're a lesbian.
• 1:52
  Why did you sleep with Adam Jones?" So listen, the pace is fast, the dialogue snaps, really good performances, I will watch Burnt any time.
• 2:06
  While also thinking, I'm pretty sure it's not great to make a guy this toxic seem this cool.
• 2:16
  But in tons of movies and on cooking shows, that's what you get.
• 2:19
  A celebration of the chef as a broken genius, tough love, drill sergeant.
• 2:25
  Where did this come from?
• 2:27
  And what's it look like when a food movie celebrates the opposite?
• 2:43
  I'm Rico Gagliano, welcome back to the MUBI Podcast.
• 2:45
  MUBI's the global film company that champions great cinema.
• 2:48
  On this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema.
• 2:51
  We're in the middle of Season 10.
• 2:51
  We're calling it A Feast for the Eyes.
• 2:54
  Just in time for your holiday dinners we're digging into how and why so many filmmakers obsess over food in their films or in this case, over the people who make it.
• 3:03
  I think restaurant kitchens really attract a certain type of person and allows for you to be a certain way in a professional setting that no other job would allow.
• 3:12
  That is food writer Alison Roman.
• 3:13
  She was a columnist for The New York Times and now presides over a food culture empire that includes a grocery store and a new best-selling cookbook called Something From Nothing. But most germane to our needs today, she spent her early 20s cooking in high-end kitchens.
• 3:27
  So I talked to her about great movie chefs and why her favorite does not give Burnt vibes.
• 3:33
  Most food content now that we see is fast paced, super cut, loud chopping sounds...
• 3:37
  It's like very chaotic.
• 3:39
  And this movie was like taking a Xanax in the best way.
• 3:42
  We savor the gentle simmer of the 2023 Cannes winner The Taste of Things but first I asked Alison to give me her first sense memory of her restaurant days.
• 3:55
  It was honestly totally exhilarating.
• 3:58
  It was like, I don't know, I don't know how else to describe it.
• 4:01
  It was like, addictive.
• 4:03
  It was sort of like a real adrenaline high.
• 4:05
  I knew that I wanted to do it.
• 4:05
  I knew that I wanted to be there.
• 4:09
  I was like, oh, this is my career, this is my path.
• 4:11
  It was scary and very unknown.
• 4:13
  I had never done it before or anything like it before, but it was something I was very, very interested in.
• 4:18
  What was so addictive about it?
• 4:18
  'Cause I hear this a lot.
• 4:21
  One thing I hear a lot, for instance, is that you go into, it's called a flow state where you're almost working on automatic and it can be exhilarating.
• 4:29
  - But you tell me.
• 4:29
  - Yeah.
• 4:30
  I also just think it was a room full of people that were really into what they were doing and there was a mission and they were on the mission.
• 4:37
  And it's not unlike what I imagine a Broadway performance to be,
• 4:42
  where there's just like: You gotta get through the night and then do it all again the next night.
• 4:45
  where there's just like: - The show must go on.
• 4:45
  where there's just like: - Yeah, yeah.
• 4:47
  where there's just like: It's like short bursts of really intense energy and physical exertion and focus and effort, and then it's all over.
• 4:55
  where there's just like: It's like a very interesting, sort of, wave to ride.
• 4:58
  where there's just like: Why did you leave?
• 4:58
  where there's just like: It sounds like it was your calling.
• 5:01
  where there's just like: It was, but anyone who's worked in a restaurant will tell you it's just like the physical demand is high.
• 5:07
  where there's just like: The pay is extremely low.
• 5:07
  where there's just like: The hours are very long.
• 5:11
  where there's just like: And I knew I didn't want to own my own restaurant, I knew I didn't wanna work for somebody else at their restaurant.
• 5:16
  where there's just like: So that left me with the option to leave.
• 5:20
  where there's just like: I think it was great for a time, you know, I was 20, I was 19, and I left restaurants when I was 25, maybe even later 26. It was quite a run.
• 5:29
  where there's just like: And I think it's a young person's game for sure.
• 5:31
  where there's just like: I think it's very difficult.
• 5:32
  where there's just like: I couldn't imagine doing it now, at this age.
• 5:35
  where there's just like: - Or economically, it's even harder.
• 5:35
  where there's just like: - Yeah.
• 5:38
  where there's just like: Let's talk about the standard portrayal of chefs on screen, which kind of jibes in a lot of ways with what you've just been talking about.
• 5:45
  where there's just like: But if I were to ask you to paint the typical portrait, what would it be?
• 5:49
  where there's just like: What do you think the stereotypical portrait of a chef might be?
• 5:53
  where there's just like: Man. A man and mean, intelligent, a creative genius, you know, sort of like a complex character.
• 6:04
  where there's just like: I think it's very easy to just default to The Bear because that's like a hugely successful show that happens to involve a chef.
• 6:10
  where there's just like: But I have to admit, watching it for the first time, I was like, well, this guy does remind me of a lot of people I worked with.
• 6:17
  where there's just like: Really? 'Cause the thing that's interesting about The Bear is that it's true, it's all those things.
• 6:21
  where there's just like: It's an intense genius who's like, you know, kind of brooding.
• 6:24
  where there's just like: But in a way, The Bear is about trying to get past that, I feel like.
• 6:28
  where there's just like: From the very beginning, the head chef, Carmy specifically doesn't want to create that kind of toxic kitchen environment, but it just keeps happening.
• 6:37
  where there's just like: Pars all day.- Syd, salads, count.
• 6:38
  where there's just like: - Twenty-five all day, Chef.Twenty-five. Thank you.- Grill pars. Tina, chicken.
• 6:42
  where there's just like: - Thirty-two all day, Chef.Thirty-two. Thank you.- Ebra, beef all day?
• 6:47
  where there's just like: - 100, Chef.100. Thank you.- Richie. Go fuck yourself.
• 6:51
  where there's just like: - Sixty-nine all day, Chef.And Marcus, cakes all day?Uh... Give me a sec.- No. Faster. How many?
• 6:57
  where there's just like: - Got a little behind. I'm gonna catch up.Marcus, if you're still fucking with those donuts right now,I'm gonna fuck your day up.
• 7:02
  where there's just like: You hear me? I think restaurant kitchens really attract a certain type of person that is, attracted to that lifestyle.
• 7:09
  where there's just like: And it's hard and unconventional and allows for you to be a certain way in a professional setting that no other job would allow.
• 7:17
  where there's just like: It's true.
• 7:19
  where there's just like: The way I would put it, it's like there are so many films, it's like, an intense genius and their biggest fault is demanding a level of excellence that only he is willing to sacrifice everything to have.
• 7:31
  where there's just like: To the detriment of his health and his money and his sanity and his relationships.
• 7:36
  where there's just like: And I feel like usually these movies, the journey of the chef is to correct that fault.
• 7:41
  where there's just like: But also we're supposed to kind of get off on it in a weird way.
• 7:45
  where there's just like: That's not the case in The Bear, but a lot of times we're meant to get, I feel like, a rush from this total power trip that's going on.
• 7:52
  where there's just like: And it's like applauded, right?
• 7:52
  where there's just like: I think it's sort of encouraged.
• 7:55
  where there's just like: Because we expect it.
• 7:55
  where there's just like: Again, I think it's very specific to men.
• 7:59
  where there's just like: And I've always found it very interesting that, especially in pop culture, or even, I think perhaps historically, that the people representing a professional kitchen in their creativity and work ethic and genius and brilliance and impact on culture are always men, even if they're difficult.
• 8:15
  where there's just like: And the domestic role of like a caretaker of a woman is just that.
• 8:20
  where there's just like: It's like she's in the house and she takes care of the family and she cooks for the family, but it's not considered to be brilliant.
• 8:26
  where there's just like: My favorite example is Burnt.
• 8:29
  where there's just like: Supposedly, the movie is about Bradley Cooper's character learning to be a better guy, but through the whole thing, he's just super abusive and everyone falls in love with him anyway because he's a genius.
• 8:40
  where there's just like: Exactly.
• 8:41
  where there's just like: But there is the movie No Reservations where the obsessive chef is a woman.
• 8:46
  where there's just like: I never saw it.
• 8:47
  where there's just like: I think as a person who is in the industry, it was too close to home- and I kind of stayed away from it a bit.
• 8:51
  where there's just like: - How so?
• 8:53
  where there's just like: It was just not something that was interesting to me, because I also never thought that it was going to do it justice.
• 8:59
  where there's just like: It was like, I don't wanna watch the romanticized Hollywood version of my life.
• 9:03
  where there's just like: The experience of a woman in that environment?
• 9:05
  where there's just like: Yeah, or anyone in that environment, even watching a man in that environment, how they were depicting it would always fall short of what it actually was.
• 9:12
  where there's just like: And that's why I think I was pleasantly surprised when I saw The Bear.
• 9:15
  where there's just like: I was like, oh, that's pretty on point, actually, for a lot of it.
• 9:18
  where there's just like: What does The Bear get right that others don't?
• 9:20
  where there's just like: I think tapping into the complexity of the individual.
• 9:23
  where there's just like: A chef can be a very complex character.
• 9:27
  where there's just like: And I think in that particular show, Carmy is especially sort of unlikable.
• 9:32
  where there's just like: But you're still rooting for him because you understand there's a lot of pain.
• 9:36
  where there's just like: Yeah, he's got a soul.
• 9:37
  where there's just like: There's a lot of intensity that he's battling and you feel for him, there's empathy.
• 9:41
  where there's just like: For the most part, people that I know in kitchens that have dedicated their life to that sort of work all had sort of like a, I don't want to say a darkness as a pejorative, but it was sort of like a heaviness.
• 9:51
  where there's just like: Here's the question, though, that I have.
• 9:51
  where there's just like: There's a chicken and egg question here.
• 9:55
  where there's just like: Does the nature of the job attract that kind of person, or did the nature of the job attract some of that person?
• 10:02
  where there's just like: And then those people made movies and TV shows about it, and then people who would be into that kind of lifestyle were brought on.
• 10:10
  where there's just like: And I'm thinking specifically of like, Gordon Ramsay and Anthony Bourdain made it like kitchens are these macho places where you're gonna get put through an army boot camp and come out on the other side a stronger, tougher, cooler, tattooed dude.
• 10:26
  where there's just like: I think that that, of course, couldn't help.
• 10:28
  where there's just like: But I think with Bourdain, he was certainly not trying to become the poster child for that.
• 10:33
  where there's just like: But his sheer charisma and like it poured out of him and he became this thing just by being himself.
• 10:41
  where there's just like: And I think very few people come along in our lifetime like that.
• 10:44
  where there's just like: But yeah, I think it's very different now.
• 10:46
  where there's just like: I think that fame is a real driving force in that, whereas before it was sort of the opposite.
• 10:50
  where there's just like: Very few people that worked in kitchens that became chefs ever achieved notoriety, fame or wealth.
• 10:55
  where there's just like: And so it was, I don't know, I don't want to say like a purity to the profession, but it felt like it wasn't as lucrative as it has the potential to be now, depending on how you play it.
• 11:05
  where there's just like: - You weren't gonna be a rock star.
• 11:05
  where there's just like: - Correct.
• 11:07
  where there's just like: And you can go into it feeling like you're gonna maybe craft an image through your food and on media.
• 11:13
  where there's just like: And to be fair, the Food Network, the rise of the Food Network really changed that, too.
• 11:17
  where there's just like: There were-- As TV played a role in that, I think it did become more lifestyle.
• 11:23
  where there's just like: It did become more like, oh, maybe I could-- Maybe that is another avenue, versus like, I want to grind for 13 hours a day, five days a week in a basement, you know.
• 11:33
  where there's just like: Cooking food for strangers.
• 11:35
  where there's just like: Yeah, literally with, like, fire under my face.
• 11:38
  where there's just like: Yeah.
• 11:39
  where there's just like: Before we get to your pick of a movie, is there kind of-- In the same way that my understanding is that mafioso, all of them really love the Godfather movies.
• 11:48
  where there's just like: Is there generally a food professionals' favorite food movie, the one that you would hear referenced all the time?
• 11:54
  where there's just like: I don't know.
• 11:55
  where there's just like: I think when I was getting a start in the kitchens that I worked at,Big Night was popular.
• 11:59
  where there's just like: People liked Big Night, which is...
• 12:03
  where there's just like: - Is that a Tucci?
• 12:03
  where there's just like: - Yep.
• 12:04
  where there's just like: - He directed it and wrote it.
• 12:04
  where there's just like: - He did?
• 12:07
  where there's just like: - And acted it.
• 12:07
  where there's just like: - Directed it and wrote it?
• 12:09
  where there's just like: - Yep.
• 12:09
  where there's just like: - Stop.
• 12:10
  where there's just like: - Yeah.
• 12:10
  where there's just like: - Wow.
• 12:13
  where there's just like: I am absolutely blown away by this information.
• 12:15
  where there's just like: - I'm gonna triple check this.
• 12:15
  where there's just like: - Oh my God.
• 12:17
  where there's just like: That's right, with Campbell Scott.
• 12:17
  where there's just like: He co-directed it with Campbell Scott.
• 12:20
  where there's just like: This is huge news for the Tucci heads listening.
• 12:23
  where there's just like: That one. Yeah, that one was popular.
• 12:25
  where there's just like: - I recall Tampopo also very popular.
• 12:25
  where there's just like: - Japanese film.
• 12:29
  where there's just like: There's a famous omelet scene in there that people love to talk about and reference.
• 12:34
  where there's just like: Which scene is that? I don't remember.
• 12:35
  where there's just like: There's a scene. It's a rice omelet.
• 12:37
  where there's just like: It's basically one of those Japanese rice omelets where you-- You make the omelet, and it's very, very wet inside.
• 12:43
  where there's just like: And you flip it over on top of this mound of rice, and then you slice it down the middle and it kind of spills out over the rice.
• 12:50
  where there's just like: - It's like a textural sort of experience.
• 12:50
  where there's just like: - Yeah.
• 12:53
  where there's just like: I feel also, by the way, in the movie we're about to talk about the very first thing we see cooked, I think, is an egg dish.
• 13:00
  where there's just like: And Big Night famously ends with Stanley Tucci's character, cooking his brother an omelet.
• 13:04
  where there's just like: Eggs are a miracle. Don't forget it.
• 13:06
  where there's just like: I don't know if I've thought about it, but why? Why eggs? Why is that?
• 13:09
  where there's just like: Well, they come out of a chicken's body as a whole, perfect thing and then you crack it open and eat it.
• 13:12
  where there's just like: It's pretty wild if you think about it.
• 13:15
  where there's just like: Sure, it's almost Adam and Eve, too.
• 13:15
  where there's just like: It's like this is the origin, the egg.
• 13:19
  where there's just like: And it can be so many things.
• 13:20
  where there's just like: It can be boiled and scrambled and fried and jammy and mixed into things.
• 13:26
  where there's just like: It's used for baking, and to make a mayonnaise, it's used to make a dressing and it's used-- It's like really a miracle.
• 13:32
  where there's just like: What can't it do?
• 13:32
  where there's just like: It's water and it's protein in one.
• 13:34
  where there's just like: It can be runny and fluffy.
• 13:36
  where there's just like: Yeah. It's fascinating.
• 13:38
  where there's just like: What do you-- Is there something about Big Night?
• 13:41
  where there's just like: Why did food people gravitate to those two movies?
• 13:43
  where there's just like: I think because it wasn't trying to depict chefs or restaurants in this, like, glorified romantic way, just sort of like, is this working-class energy and like the hecticness and the vibe and the food is real and...
• 13:56
  where there's just like: It is kind of working-class, the chefs in those movies are underdogs.
• 14:00
  where there's just like: They're not Michelin star big shots.
• 14:02
  where there's just like: Big Night is about how these immigrant Italian brothers are serving this incredible food, but no one in 1950s America even knows what it is.
• 14:10
  where there's just like: - Monsieur, is this what I ordered?
• 14:10
  where there's just like: - Yes, that is the risotto.Is a special recipe that my brother and I bring from Italy.It's delicious, I promise.It took so long, I thought you went all the way back to Italy to get it.Yes, I know. And much like The Bear, even if you're not into food, you can appreciate the film, so that helps as well.
• 14:27
  where there's just like: I remember when that movie came out, by the way, it was opening night, I think, and there was so much anticipation for it that I remember cooking a big pasta meal for my friends'cause I was like, if we watch this, we're gonna be hungry, so let's not be hungry when we go to that movie.
• 14:42
  where there's just like: I don't know if you were even, you know, watching movies at that era.
• 14:46
  where there's just like: I'm older than you.
• 14:47
  where there's just like: I was not, unfortunately, but I have some catching up to do.
• 14:51
  where there's just like: Alright, let's move on to the movie that you wanted to talk about,The Taste of Things. Let's just set it up.
• 14:56
  where there's just like: It's about a chef in late 1800s France named Eugénie, played by Juliette Binoche and she works in the country estate of a guy who is some kind of famous gourmet.
• 15:08
  where there's just like: It's a little unclear to me who the man is.
• 15:11
  where there's just like: He's a professional or was a professional.
• 15:13
  where there's just like: Yeah, maybe he could be a chef himself or a food writer.
• 15:16
  where there's just like: - And Eugénie lives in his estate.
• 15:16
  where there's just like: - Yeah, she's the cook of the household.
• 15:20
  where there's just like: So when he has these people over, obviously a group of men to discuss the world, food, cooking, she is the one who cooks for them.
• 15:28
  where there's just like: And so it's known as this house where all the food is gonna be remarkable.
• 15:32
  where there's just like: And they make the menus together and sort of through this, you see that there's also like a romantic connection here.
• 15:39
  where there's just like: Yeah. They've been-- I guess "dating" isn't the right term.
• 15:41
  where there's just like: They've been a couple for apparently a very long time, like decades potentially.
• 15:46
  where there's just like: - But never married.
• 15:46
  where there's just like: - Never married.
• 15:48
  where there's just like: In fact, early on he proposes to her.
• 15:50
  where there's just like: Je vous le demande encore, Eugénie.
• 15:50
  where there's just like: Marions-nous. And she's basically like,"Why would we do that?"Combien de fois encore allez-vous me poser cette question? But when you see them cook for each other and with each other, you can tell there's this connection that is so intense and respectful that marriage is almost beside the point.
• 16:09
  where there's just like: I have a confession to make as well about this movie.
• 16:11
  where there's just like: - Which is?
• 16:11
  where there's just like: - I watched it without the sound.
• 16:14
  where there's just like: There's subtitles, but I watched without the sound for the first half, because I was on an airplane and my child was sleeping on me and I couldn't access the headphones, but I was so rapt and I understood everything.
• 16:26
  where there's just like: I understood exactly what was happening.
• 16:26
  where there's just like: The acting is so superlative.
• 16:29
  where there's just like: And because it's in French, I could read all the subtitles.
• 16:32
  where there's just like: It was phenomenal.
• 16:33
  where there's just like: Then I turned the sound on and the sound was great as well but...
• 16:36
  where there's just like: I just had to come clean.
• 16:37
  where there's just like: We'll get to the sound.
• 16:37
  where there's just like: But what about it kept you going?
• 16:40
  where there's just like: It's visually...
• 16:40
  where there's just like: Even on a small airplane screen it's visually so beautiful.
• 16:45
  where there's just like: I think very early on it was very clear that this was a movie made by people who really cared about food and really honored what it means to cook and the fact that there's no real plot, like many great films, there doesn't have to be.
• 16:58
  where there's just like: It drew me in immediately, because I think the second that you try to make a food film have too much plot, it loses me because I'm like, food inherently is just beautiful on its own.
• 17:07
  where there's just like: You don't need to do too much to it to make it interesting.
• 17:10
  where there's just like: And this movie really gets that.
• 17:10
  where there's just like: It understands that.
• 17:13
  where there's just like: It understands also the connectivity between heart and soul and food and cooking and care and intimacy.
• 17:19
  where there's just like: I could tell all of that without the sound.
• 17:22
  where there's just like: It's actually, as you're saying this, I'm thinking back to those other two movies, Tampopo and Big Night. They also have either extremely simple plots or very fragmented plots.
• 17:32
  where there's just like: Tampopo is actually a bunch of little vignettes, and Big Night has got a very simple plot.
• 17:39
  where there's just like: It's really more about the sensory nature of things.
• 17:44
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The way to make a great food movie is like-- Let it do its thing.
• 17:46
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Let it speak for itself.
• 17:49
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You know, as a person who's tried to make a TV show about food for at least seven years now, I'm always fighting for letting the cooking and the food be the thing.
• 17:57
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And everyone's always like,"What's the hook and what's the thing?" And, "What are we doing?" And like, "Who's the guest?" And I'm like, it doesn't need all the hats on the hat.
• 18:07
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Because cooking and food and the act of doing it in a-- Professionally and when you're doing something well that is joyful and that is compelling.
• 18:15
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Those other two films do that well.
• 18:17
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The rice omelet in Tampopo is an expertly made, beautiful omelet.
• 18:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It is like a masterclass.
• 18:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There doesn't need to be a why or a how...
• 18:25
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You're seeing the tenderness in that moment.
• 18:27
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You're seeing the level of care.
• 18:27
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's like mischief.
• 18:30
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's a sneakiness to it.
• 18:30
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It's late at night, we're doing something maybe we shouldn't be doing.
• 18:35
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's, you know, there's all these layers.
• 18:37
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Yeah, in a way, I was gonna ask why food and cinema are so kind of inextricably tied together.
• 18:42
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I mean, we're not the first people on Earth to think about doing a season or a series about film and food.
• 18:49
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And the reason may be because of what you're talking about.
• 18:51
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's something inherent in the act of making food that is cinematic.
• 18:55
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I think it is, I really do.
• 18:56
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It's almost like watching a magic trick, I guess.
• 18:58
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You don't necessarily need a plot to appreciate a magic trick.
• 19:01
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It's like a miracle happening in front of your eyes.
• 19:03
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: That's right.
• 19:07
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But that's not the only trickThe Taste of Things pulls off.
• 19:10
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Like the revolutionary sexual politics it gets across almost without saying a word.
• 19:15
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: That's coming up in just a minute.
• 19:15
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Stay with us.
• 19:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Alright, everybody.
• 19:23
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: MUBI is the global film company that champions great cinema, bringing it to you wherever you are in as many ways as we possibly can.
• 19:29
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: We stream movies, we produce them, we release them in theaters, movies from any country, from legendary auteurs or brilliant first timers, we've always got something new for you to discover.
• 19:38
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And if you are digging this episode, I've got something I bet you're gonna want to discover right now on MUBI.
• 19:44
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: We've got a whole tasting menu of food-centric movies curated just for you.
• 19:49
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: We're calling the collection Let's Eat, and it runs the gamut from movies where food is a declaration of love, to movies where it is a potential murder weapon.
• 19:58
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: A great example of the latter category would be Paul Thomas Anderson'sPhantom Thread, maybe his most beautiful movie about the codependent relationship between a couture superstar and the waitress he takes as a muse in 1950s England.
• 20:12
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: This is my wife and I's favorite PTA movie.
• 20:15
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It might be because we saw it on our honeymoon, although I don't know if I'd recommend that to every couple.
• 20:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And also in a few countries, we've also got The Taste of Things, the movie you're about to hear me and Allison talk a lot more about, so I won't get too deep into it here.
• 20:29
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Suffice to say, Tran Anh Hung won the Best Director prize for it at Cannes, and it is romantic and sensual and sad, and it might be the perfect date movie, as long as you're pretty sure you want to be with your date for the rest of your life.
• 20:42
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Again, that collection is called Let's Eat.
• 20:44
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I should say, the movies in there will be a little different depending on what country you're in, but I guarantee you will find them tasty and you can start watching by subscribing to MUBI at mubi.com There are links and all the info you need in the show notes of this episode.
• 20:59
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Speaking of which, let's get back to the episode.
• 21:07
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: So The Taste of Things is a quiet movie that still manages to be full of epic cinematic flexes like take the opening sequence, which starts, appropriately enough, with Chef Eugenie picking veggies for the day's meal, then moves into the estate's big rustic kitchen as she, her lover and a couple of assistants start to cook and cook and cook.
• 21:31
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I was watching it online, so I was able to actually, like, just look at the timer.
• 21:35
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The opening scene is basically 17 straight minutes of cooking, plus a little vegetable picking and then 15 more minutes of dining.
• 21:43
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: This is a two hour movie,- the first quarter of the movie is...
• 21:44
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - Incredible.
• 21:47
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - ...one meal with not that much dialogue.
• 21:47
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - It's so good.
• 21:50
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Do you remember what you were thinking during that opening?
• 21:53
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's a moment when I was like, is there gonna-- Are we going to figure out what's going on here?
• 21:58
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: No, I didn't care.
• 21:59
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I was like, "Oh, wow, this is the best thing I've ever seen." It was like, I'm just watching really, really good-- I'm watching people cook in a beautiful kitchen and they're cooking things that I wouldn't necessarily cook.
• 22:09
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It's fancier, it's Frencher, it's fussier, it's a hundred years ago.
• 22:11
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And I was supremely entertained.
• 22:16
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The fact that there was no dialogue, I was like, this is absolutely incredible.
• 22:20
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Even when it cuts to the dining room and it's like these gentlemen who are really into food and are eating, they're so about the food, they don't even speak for a lot of it.
• 22:28
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And you understand exactly what's happening.
• 22:30
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The synopsis that I just gave, which was probably poorly said, is in the first 15, 20 minutes of the movie and then, of course, some other things unfold and drive some conversations forward, but to do that and open your movie that way is so bold.
• 22:42
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And also to just be like, this is enough.
• 22:44
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: This movie, by the way, did very well at Cannes.
• 22:46
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It was very well received at Cannes.
• 22:47
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I was like, this movie is made to kill at Cannes. It's a French movie...
• 22:51
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Yeah, and made to get like, earn like $5 at the box office.
• 22:56
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But it's just it's like a French movie about French food that is pure cinema.
• 23:00
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: By the way, technically it's a marvel.
• 23:02
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: At a certain point, it became pretty clear to me the actors are really cooking these dishes and there are just edits to keep the pace moving.
• 23:08
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: They probably cooked it from beginning to end and there's just a roving camera going around shooting them.
• 23:13
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's almost no way it was faked.
• 23:15
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Yeah, that's how I shoot all my cooking videos.
• 23:18
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I just cook it and someone films me.
• 23:18
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But you can't fake it.
• 23:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You can't do it any other way.
• 23:22
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And there are just small things that I noticed that probably not many people would.
• 23:26
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The way that a person wipes their hand on an apron and the way somebody tastes food and puts the spoon back in a certain way, or seasons food or stirs a pot or opens an oven.
• 23:37
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's just certain rhythmic motions that were done in this movie that were so real and professional.
• 23:45
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And I don't mean professional, like in a Michelin starred kitchen, I just mean like a professional cook.
• 23:50
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Could be at home, could be in a restaurant.
• 23:52
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The things that you can't fake.
• 23:54
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: What I would definitely say, because so many movies, as you said before, are about professional chefs cooking under pressure, which it really, that's what a kitchen is, it's incredible pressure.
• 24:04
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And even The Bear, which is about chefs who want to break this abusive cycle, it's totally about high pressure.
• 24:10
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: That's one of the defining things of that show.
• 24:12
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: This specifically is a chef who takes her time for a boss who wants her to take her time, and diners who want to take their time.
• 24:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And there's this one shot where Juliette Binoche's character is adding cream to vegetables and she just folds in the cream gently for what seems like a minute.
• 24:38
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Is this maybe one of the things that attracts us, is that it's calm in a world where there is none of it.
• 24:43
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Yeah, I think that that could be part of it.
• 24:45
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I think that it's also just meditative.
• 24:47
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And I think that most food content now that we see is fast paced, super cut, loud chopping sounds.
• 24:52
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It's very chaotic and not at all relaxing, to me anyway.
• 24:57
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And this movie was like taking a Xanax in the best way.
• 24:59
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Instead of people shouting at each other, it was just the sound of birds and insects chirping outside the window.
• 25:04
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Yeah, it was really just like, wow, this is the life that I want to live.
• 25:08
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: This is the life that I want to lead, for sure.
• 25:10
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I want to talk a little bit about Juliette Binoche's character.
• 25:13
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's one scene early on where she's talking about where she learned to cook, and she actually specifically mentions that her dad was a famous pastry chef in Paris.
• 25:22
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But then she says she actually learned more from her mother because he, the dad, was too "impatient".
• 25:29
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And it's almost like her character and her lover's approach to cooking is specifically the flip side of what you were talking about before, this male-dominated kind of macho cooking.
• 25:40
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Is there a reading of this where it's a feminist film?
• 25:43
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Absolutely, I think so.
• 25:44
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Especially because she's sort of, to call her the lady of the house is a little reductive, I think she's the person of the house and everyone knows it, even in this extremely male dominated era where women were not really allowed to do much.
• 25:57
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Seen not heard or heard not seen?
• 25:57
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Seen not heard or whatever.
• 26:02
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Not welcome in many spaces, physically and even everybody at the table is like, "Where is she?
• 26:07
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: "I want to hang out with her.
• 26:07
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: She's the one we want to talk to.
• 26:10
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: "She's the one that should be dining with us.
• 26:12
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: "She's the genius.
• 26:12
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: She's the brilliant person here." I think that made things feel a little bit more special as well.
• 26:18
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And also just rejecting the idea that women were victimized.
• 26:22
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: In this story she wasn't.
• 26:23
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It wasn't this traditional plot where perhaps she was relegated or glory was stolen by a man or whatever.
• 26:31
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: It didn't do any of that and I really liked that.
• 26:33
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I liked that it was sort of letting her be powerful without apology.
• 26:37
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: There's something this movie shares, with another movie that we're covering this season, which is Ratatouille.
• 26:42
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - Oh, I love Ratatouille, obviously.
• 26:42
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - Who doesn't?
• 26:45
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I just watched it also without sound on a plane pretty recently.
• 26:48
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Well, a quarter of it, but...
• 26:50
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You have a kid now, so you're gonna be watching it basically weekly, for the rest of- the next decade or so.
• 26:54
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - I know. Exactly.
• 26:56
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But they share these heroes, chefs who have this elevated palate and access to the most exquisite food, and they want to create somehow an ideal version of the humblest dish possible.
• 27:08
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: That's their goal.
• 27:09
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And in this case, it's pot-au-feu, which is basically boiled beef and veggies.
• 27:13
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The same thing happens in The Menu, the horror thriller, The Menu where the main kind-- There's a molecular chef but he takes his biggest pleasure making a cheeseburger.
• 27:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - What is up with that?
• 27:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - I don't know.
• 27:23
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Not to bring it back to my book, but I did just write a book calledSomething From Nothing and that is the ethos there of, sometimes the best things are the simplest and show the most restraint and are the most elegant.
• 27:36
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You know, I think it's really easy to make an exquisite meal with all of the money and resources and equipment and ingredients and time.
• 27:45
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But what if you strip it way down and you give somebody a couple beef bones and a turnip or whatever?
• 27:51
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: What can you do with that?
• 27:51
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Can you make something really exquisite?
• 27:54
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And I think that that is to me, in this movie, more so than The Menu, is sort of like, the argument that, the mark of a real chef is to reconnect with simplicity and elevate that and sort of make you forget about smoke and mirrors and the hat on a hat and the glitz and the glamour.
• 28:11
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: You know, it's sort of like, "Oh, wow, this is the most wonderful thing." And it is simply beef and vegetables and boiled and in the wrong hands that's terrible, that's a terrible meal.
• 28:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: Yeah.
• 28:21
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: I mean, it happens in Big Night, too.
• 28:23
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: The thing is building, the whole plot is building to this insane stunt entree,- the timbale.
• 28:29
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - Timbale, yeah.
• 28:30
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: And then at the end, it's just one shot of a guy making an omelet.
• 28:33
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - Yeah.
• 28:33
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: - Strips it all down.
• 28:35
  Wow, you may have really hit on something: But here's the other thing, I'll tell you why I was thinking of this in a second,
• 28:40
  first, I'll pose the question: Is there maybe also a little bit of, like, guilt for the excesses of being a gourmet in these movies?
• 28:47
  first, I'll pose the question: It's kind of like, maybe this is too much.
• 28:49
  first, I'll pose the question: We can also just cook an egg and appreciate it.
• 28:51
  first, I'll pose the question: I don't know, I think it's definitely more of a flex.
• 28:53
  first, I'll pose the question: I think it's definitely more of like a, I can do something with very little.
• 28:57
  first, I'll pose the question: Because to me that's the most powerful thing you can say.
• 28:59
  first, I'll pose the question: That's the magic trick.
• 29:00
  first, I'll pose the question: Because the flip side and why he chooses to make the pot-au-feu is because the chef before him, the tasting menu was this nine hour tasting menu with the most exquisite pheasants and partridges and fats and beasts and cheeses and techniques and...
• 29:16
  first, I'll pose the question: Because you're a prince or you're this or you're that and you have all the resources and you can do a lot with that.
• 29:22
  first, I'll pose the question: And that is impressive.
• 29:23
  first, I'll pose the question: But that does feel sort of showy and wasteful and gluttonous and like, is it that impressive?
• 29:28
  first, I'll pose the question: That just seems like a show of money.
• 29:29
  first, I'll pose the question: Or a show of time or a show of whatever.
• 29:31
  first, I'll pose the question: But to do something simple, demure and elegant is, I think, a real flex of talent and maturity.
• 29:38
  first, I'll pose the question: The scene you're talking about, for those who haven't seen the movie, very specifically he goes to a prince's house and the prince is gonna have a meal cooked for him, this famous gourmand, and he just comes out with this menu.
• 29:51
  first, I'll pose the question: It takes like five minutes for the chef to read what the menu is going to be.
• 29:55
  first, I'll pose the question: It's insane.
• 29:56
  first, I'll pose the question: But here's the thing that became, the reason why I brought this up, is because there's a scene, I don't know if you remember this or even registered it'cause it's actually a pretty short scene in this movie.
• 30:06
  first, I'll pose the question: - It's the ortolan scene.
• 30:06
  first, I'll pose the question: - I do.
• 30:08
  first, I'll pose the question: Do you want to describe this for people who haven't?
• 30:10
  first, I'll pose the question: I'll describe what ortolan is, first.
• 30:12
  first, I'll pose the question: It's a bird and it's a delicacy in this era.
• 30:16
  first, I'll pose the question: I don't know if it's still practiced today.
• 30:18
  first, I'll pose the question: I think there are places where you can get it.
• 30:19
  first, I'll pose the question: I've heard because I know my cousin did it, not too long ago.
• 30:22
  first, I'll pose the question: But basically...
• 30:24
  first, I'll pose the question: - It's illegal in some countries.
• 30:24
  first, I'll pose the question: - Yes, definitely.
• 30:27
  first, I'll pose the question: It's whole it's served to you and you have to cover your head and the bowl and eat this bird whole under this napkin or cloak.
• 30:38
  first, I'll pose the question: You crunch the bones and eat the whole thing and it's...
• 30:42
  first, I'll pose the question: What is the reason?
• 30:42
  first, I'll pose the question: They say it in the film, it's either-- I've read several reasons why they eat it under the cloth.
• 30:49
  first, I'll pose the question: One is that you don't want to watch your fellow diners eat this thing whole, because it's horrifying, because it's like bones and all, and the other is supposedly to get the aromas.
• 30:59
  first, I'll pose the question: Yes.
• 31:00
  first, I'll pose the question: And then somebody once said, and this is like, I don't know if it's apocryphal, but it's so that you hide yourself from the eyes of God.
• 31:06
  first, I'll pose the question: That's what, okay, that's what I was gonna say, hide yourself in the eyes of God.
• 31:08
  first, I'll pose the question: They say that in the film, I believe.
• 31:11
  first, I'll pose the question: Yeah. It's insane.
• 31:13
  first, I'll pose the question: By the way, they're songbirds that are raised-- They talk about this in the movie, too, they're gorged.
• 31:18
  first, I'll pose the question: It's almost like foie gras.
• 31:19
  first, I'll pose the question: They're gorged until they're twice their size.
• 31:21
  first, I'll pose the question: This I had to look up, I don't think it's mentioned in the movie, they are drowned in Armagnac because we have to make this as brutal as possible, apparently.
• 31:29
  first, I'll pose the question: And delicious. I'm just kidding.
• 31:33
  first, I'll pose the question: There's a lot of negative connotations to this.
• 31:36
  first, I'll pose the question: You have to hide yourself from the eyes of God.
• 31:39
  first, I'll pose the question: And I feel like it's almost a a contrast to what the woman is cooking.
• 31:44
  first, I'll pose the question: There's a guilt to what these dudes are doing going way into this kind of decadence.
• 31:49
  first, I'll pose the question: Yeah, I personally don't want that in my life.
• 31:51
  first, I'll pose the question: But do you think that that's what's going on?
• 31:53
  first, I'll pose the question: I don't know, it's really tough to say how much is intentional in that way or how much of that is just incidental given it was a product of the time.
• 32:00
  first, I'll pose the question: I feel like if you're making a period piece about food in that era, it would be remiss not to include something like ortolan in the context of very wealthy people dining for entertainment, which is effectively what they were doing.
• 32:12
  first, I'll pose the question: And they are shown getting lots of animals, that's for sure.
• 32:16
  first, I'll pose the question: I can so see this movie in your book.
• 32:19
  first, I'll pose the question: Some of the photos from the book could be stills from this movie.
• 32:22
  first, I'll pose the question: Did you actually have it in mind?
• 32:24
  first, I'll pose the question: No. I did art direct the book, but way before I saw the movie.
• 32:26
  first, I'll pose the question: You happen to share-- This is maybe one reason why you like the movie.
• 32:29
  first, I'll pose the question: You guys clearly share an aesthetic.
• 32:31
  first, I'll pose the question: Very much so.
• 32:31
  first, I'll pose the question: Yes, I could say that.
• 32:32
  first, I'll pose the question: But you can tell by the title that this book is about simple recipes.
• 32:37
  first, I'll pose the question: Do you ever cook like the chefs in this film do?
• 32:40
  first, I'll pose the question: No. I'm more likely to make a pot-au-feu. So what is the attraction then, food-wise?
• 32:45
  first, I'll pose the question: Because I'll agree with you, by the way, I don't eat much French food, period.
• 32:48
  first, I'll pose the question: It's just too heavy for me.
• 32:49
  first, I'll pose the question: I think it's just sort of watching anyone do something that if they're good at it, it's interesting and fun to watch.
• 32:55
  first, I'll pose the question: It's the same reason I watch the Olympics.
• 32:57
  first, I'll pose the question: It's really cool to see people who are great at figure skating, but I don't have any interest in doing that myself.
• 33:03
  first, I'll pose the question: That'd kill you.
• 33:04
  first, I'll pose the question: I suppose it did sort of make me be like, maybe I should spend a day doing something kind of extravagant that I would not have otherwise done, you know?
• 33:12
  first, I'll pose the question: Yeah, sure.
• 33:13
  first, I'll pose the question: Near the end of the movie, this is my last question, he makes this pot-au-feu for his young disciple who doesn't like it because it has bone marrow in it, and he says that it's a very complex flavor.
• 33:25
  first, I'll pose the question: And he says something that seems very profound, but I can't quite figure it out.
• 33:29
  first, I'll pose the question: C'est normal, tu es trop jeune. He says, "You're too young."Il faut de la culture, de la mémoire, pour que le goût se forme. And he says, "It takes culture and a good memory to shape one's taste." What do you think that means?
• 33:42
  first, I'll pose the question: I think that you don't know what you like until you've lived a little bit.
• 33:46
  first, I'll pose the question: And I think that I have much better taste today than I did when I was 22.
• 33:50
  first, I'll pose the question: That's absolutely sure.
• 33:51
  first, I'll pose the question: It gets at something that I feel, which is that there are certain foods I hated as a kid that I love as an adult, and I'm somehow proud of it, like it's evidence that I've grown as a human.
• 34:00
  first, I'll pose the question: Don't they say that we also-- Our cells turn over every seven years or something?
• 34:05
  first, I'll pose the question: We become new people every seven years.
• 34:07
  first, I'll pose the question: Physically.
• 34:08
  first, I'll pose the question: And taste is like the symbolic sensory metaphor for that.
• 34:12
  first, I'll pose the question: For chefs or just for people growing up.
• 34:16
  first, I'll pose the question: Absolutely.
• 34:28
  first, I'll pose the question: There you have it, the MUBI podcast for this week.
• 34:30
  first, I'll pose the question: Follow us to fill up on more stories about food and film next week.
• 34:34
  first, I'll pose the question: The tale of a guy who took action movie style...
• 34:37
  first, I'll pose the question: I've been obsessed with slow motion.
• 34:39
  first, I'll pose the question: When I went to USC, I wanted to make The Matrix.
• 34:41
  first, I'll pose the question: ...and used it to shoot pieces of raw fish.
• 34:44
  first, I'll pose the question: Director David Gelb onJiro Dreams of Sushi, the movie that made omakase a worldwide phenomenon.
• 34:50
  first, I'll pose the question: Follow us so you don't miss it.
• 34:51
  first, I'll pose the question: Til then, if you got questions, comments or a guilty pleasure of your own you want to cop to send it to us, our email is podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits.
• 35:00
  first, I'll pose the question: This episode is written, hosted and edited by me, Rico Gagliano.
• 35:04
  first, I'll pose the question: Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk.
• 35:08
  first, I'll pose the question: Jackson Musker is our booking producer.
• 35:08
  first, I'll pose the question: Stephen Colon mastered this episode.
• 35:12
  first, I'll pose the question: Our original music is composed by Martin Austwick.
• 35:14
  first, I'll pose the question: Thanks this week to Corrina Lesser and the Larsen family.
• 35:17
  first, I'll pose the question: The show's executive produced by me along with Efe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca.
• 35:22
  first, I'll pose the question: And finally, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening.
• 35:29
  first, I'll pose the question: And hey, while we're talking eggs, season sour cream with hot sauce, whip a spoonful into your scrambled eggs, sandwich that between sliced bread and grill it up all buttery.
• 35:39
  first, I'll pose the question: Where's my Michelin star?
• 35:39
  first, I'll pose the question: That's all I'm saying.