Latest / Reframe / 07 - Andrew Cooney, Multimedia mindfulness.

Transcript

07 - Andrew Cooney, Multimedia mindfulness. · Reframe

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what truly fuels a creative mind?
0:04
SPEAKER_01: What ignites their passions and drives their creativity?
0:07
SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm Dean McGuire, an Australian fine art photographer.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: From the moment I stepped into the world of photography, I have been captivated by the community and the stories behind the lens.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: Join me as we delve into humble beginnings, explore artistic visions, and discover how we as a collective reframe our minds through the power of creativity.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Before we dive into this episode, I'd like to give a quick shout out to the incredible team at Missy Filters Australia.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Missy offer world-class products, like high-quality filters with minimal colour casts, an impressive range of cinematic lenses, and various other accessories to fuel your creative endeavours.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: Missy Australia actively support the greater photography community through workshops, educational events, and live streaming webinars on YouTube and other social media channels.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: As a special treat, Missy Australia are offering all reframe listeners a small D scale of 1% off.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: You can even combine this with sample buttons and other promotions for further D scales by using the code Reframe Podcast and check it out.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Visit missyfilters.com.au television.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you and welcome to reframe.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Join us in the off-the-cuff conversation with long-term friend Andrew Cooney.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: He works as a photographer, videographer, podcast producer, and is also an advocate for mindfulness and mental health.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: Alright, lads, welcome to Welcome to my hometown.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: You're in here.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming out to coming out to coming out to my place.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: I've allowed you to shoot in my location.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: I hope you don't mind.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: Get your hand off the microphone, mate.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, it doesn't do that.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: It does.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't do that.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't, because I'm soft.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you are soft.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm soft.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm soft with it.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: I know I'm I know this.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: And for those who don't know, that's Andrew Cooney, and he's been a pest.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: He comes into our show and thinks he runs the place.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: It's been it's been a good mor, lads.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: We're we're sitting here looking over the ocean.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: In Terrybor, one of the best places in the world.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: We captured the Skillion this morning.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: And did you um did you look at your shots?
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Not yet.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: I had a little bit of a I had a button.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: I had a brief view through.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: You got your splashy?
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was having a bit of a I was having a splashy dance today after waiting until the light was on the very end of its go.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: And then we got one splash.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: There's no place for me to look at my photos anyway because I can edit it out.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, true.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: I'll just photoshop whatever.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you were just shooting, you were shooting the ground and all of a sudden there's Eiffel Towers to generate generate film.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Photoshop.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like I went to Terragol and somehow the Eiffel Tower ended up in my shop.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Where did this come from?
3:01
SPEAKER_01: I might go to Long Jetty and Mother Lisa while I'm there.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: How do you guys how do you guys actually feel about that?
3:08
SPEAKER_02: Like the whole, because we spoke about it a little bit this morning, like use generative feel as an example.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like you can literally do whatever you want to a photo.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: As in AI, you know, AI, and I just mean like even beyond AI, just what we can do with with photos and images and art now.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Because I've spoken to a few people about it, and I reckon it's cool.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: I I see where it annoys people, but I think it does take a lot of the creativity and the and the effort out of having to having to do the work to get the shot.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: But what do you guys reckon?
3:46
SPEAKER_00: I think it's from what people thought AI was going to be to what it appears to be up becoming.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: When I saw Photoshop's new update, you can resize with AI and you can denoise with AI.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's it instead of just denoising and making it soft, it's using the other pixels and AI to then recreate just your image to make it smooth and crisp as opposed to remember the old noise control you do.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, especially the older cameras back 10 years ago.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: You end up with these like they look like mush, super muddy.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it looks like overcooked porridge.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Yum.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I've had a conversation with a couple of people about it.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, because at one point I was running a feature page and I've I've shared an AI generated image, and someone just said that's not a photo.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh no, it's not, but it's it's cool.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it has its place.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh AI definitely has its place, but I think where I will draw the line is where someone's trying to pass it off for something it's not.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: And and and we'd generate and we generate fill.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: I have no problem with it if you disclose to say that you've done it.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: In a way, don't say that it's real when it's not.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Like just if you're using if you've been using content aware fill to clone something out, I think that's that was AI before it was called AI anyway.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: It was Photoshop was already sampling the image and trying to take the best parts of the image it thought it needed to be there.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: So it was basically an algorithm that was AI before.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: You can go as far as to say that um the the stamp, the clone tool is the same thing.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: Because but you're just doing it yourself, but it's technically it's taken a bit of the image.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's effective what generate fuel's doing.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Although to a degree.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Moving small things, like say like a little bit of lens flare or something at the image.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: Now with all the AI um spot removal, it's so easy.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: You used to have to put like multiple layers and then do like a levels layer and remove the green or the red or whatever was in that one spot to make it the right color first, so you could clone something to make it like you wanted to make it look real and not look patchy.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And now you can just go click on spot and it goes, boom, god, perfect.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: It recreates the rock perfectly.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like really smooth.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: And little things like that, I think, are the tools that are gonna help us as opposed to everyone that was super petrified is gonna take our job.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: I know you've probably thought about what what what is your opinion on it?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: About the generative feel and and AI in general, creativity.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
6:17
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I sit on both sides depending on the day.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, depending on the depending on how I'm feeling.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: I think the whole like it taking over people's jobs, I think that it will take over people's jobs who aren't adapting and who don't see it as an opportunity.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Like and people who are just aren't creative where AI can actually take their job.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: Like if you're really good at what you do, and and I spend a lot of my time like listening to content around um high income skills and building businesses in a digital economy and and online and and whatever.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: And I I don't think I don't think AI will ever be able to replace a lot of these high income skills.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: Like AI is not gonna be able to go and do a video shoot for someone.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna be able to write a copy to the to uh to the point where it's a hundred percent straight out of the box and it's highly effective.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: I think we're always there's always gonna be need to be someone who needs to apply then an element of creativity to it.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: Um maybe maybe it gets more advanced in the future, but I but I just think like you you've still got a set of skills um that only humans can can do.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: We still need a human skill or being able to write the correct prompt to make the machine do its thing anyway.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: That's it's that's still a human, it's a human-driven thing, although I think where it gets the controversial periods, but like Dean was mentioning, um calling it a photo if it's not a photo, or something like that.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I saw I saw a really cool video.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh there's a landscape architect uh saying, oh, everyone thinks AI is gonna be stolen uh uh still our jobs.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: And they go replace replace this dirt with rosemary in the garden and it just literally put like a like a swig of rosemary that you put on your roast lamb into the garden, but it was like really big.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's like it's not gonna take our job.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Look, the AI doesn't even know that the deer is talking about a rosemary plant looks like it like sees it, picks the first thing that rosemary would come up in the highest ranking thing on on the internet, yeah, it would just replace it with that, yeah.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's the thing is it is a generative learning algorithm where it teaches itself, especially around if it's in your account, it gets to know what your prompts are and what you actually want because you reject it and you'll come back for something else.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it'll start to learn what you want.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: But you just brought up a good point there is that the rosemary thing that said it just goes through Google and finds what the most common thing is.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: But isn't that a positive?
9:02
SPEAKER_01: If you're more creative and more unique, your your images won't get used and they won't AI won't be able to generate your style of work if you continue to improve and change and shift.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: And and too, a really interesting point around that is that the more things become easier, the more lazy humans get.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: And we're lazy, we're lazy already.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's like now it's things are easier than ever, yet people are lazier than ever as well.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: And so I think it's a relative thing where it's like you have everything at your disposal on your phone to build a million dollar business, yet there's still people going, I don't know how to do it.
9:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, and I don't want to, that takes too much time.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: We go back to like I was having a conversation with my buddy, buddy the other day about like dial up internet.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: It's like you had to you if you're if you're a gamer, it's like you had to time when you wanted to game.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: Yep, because if someone else in your family wanted to use MSN or they wanted to call, use the phone.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: It's yeah, use the phone.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, you gotta share.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: And it's like that was just the thing back then.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Remember though, nothing different.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm in the middle of something, and mom would rip the cord out.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: I need to make a phone call and just like tighten your connection, just plug it in the phone.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, man.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Andrew's in his 20s still.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: He I don't know if you'd know about each I love it.
10:22
SPEAKER_04: Just like I'm annoyed, skew a tea.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I yeah, I feel like I feel like we all we we grew up in like a great in a great time.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: And I was having this conversation the other day again.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: He's like, you imagine growing up being like five years old now and like what you're growing up into.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like and that's why, like I mean, it is what it is, but fuck.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: The way like my kids pick up it, it's it's bad to say, but they pick up your phone, they know how to open it, and they go to the app and they go, I don't like this.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Message pops up when they're when they're playing a game and they flick it away.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: It's just like that.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: They know, they know they're like, we don't discount.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's amazing.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, but even with the whole making it easier, if you look um at some of the cameras we have now.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: Like I remember we we started on cameras like the old Nikon D800 or the um this 5D Mark 4, I sorry Mark III, so I remember when the D800 came out, it was a game changer for how damn good it was to leave that change up.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like say take my camera I've got now, I've got a Sony A7R, and um you can pretty much tell what your exposure's gonna be before you even take it.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: So it makes you a lazy photographer.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you don't into a degree, it can do, like it it some people don't, but I mean you can already see what so there's no challenge there anymore.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: I think it is I think you're exactly right.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Because the there's especially with the live view screens now, like and then in the electronic view binders, you look in and it looks exactly like it's gonna expose the photo.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Whereas like you go back to like just having mirrors in your camera, like DSR only a couple years ago, and you still had to know how to expose your photo.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, like especially long exposure.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: You'd actually have to time it and be like, okay, I have to count my exposure time.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the new cameras for mirrors are doing, but I know that like once you go to the Fuji, you can shoot one hour exposed, and it will show you one hour how like properly what it's gonna be exposed, like, and gives you a histogram for one hour.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you can you can fully see exactly what it's gonna look like.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So there is a camera.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: There's no calculation like there used to be.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: It takes away so much of the prep work to what took to making photography a skilled thing.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's it's still a skilled um type of I guess uh art form.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: But it's it's skilled now in a different way.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: But I mean there's a there's an um Olympus, I think is the the brand of the camera.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: And it does, I I don't know exactly what it's called.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like maybe it's um a live composition.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, live uh whatever it is, but it when you when you exposes, anything that's new it gets added in.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: Anything that's static stays, and it doesn't get read over the top of.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: So you can be doing a star trail and say you you do the exposure for this, say you're shooting like a tree out in the middle of nowhere.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: That tree will stay how it is and won't overexpose or underexpose, but then that then the collect the sky that's moving will be continually added in and anything that's static stays.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: So then does it like get brighter as a composite live composite?
13:37
SPEAKER_01: That's what it was.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Live composite.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: So you see live on camera.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's got like a like a mortal exposure, but it doesn't, doesn't it it doesn't mirrors, it doesn't make things look washed out like a multiple.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: I personally haven't seen, I know somebody who has used it and uses it and it and it does it, but I haven't seen the final result of it in person or anything like that.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: But it's pretty cool technology in a way that is and you can sit there and watch the screen and as it's doing it, it'll you'll see it.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Add, add, add, add, and until you have it and you turn it off.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: It's just another that becomes another tool to add to your creator.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Like if you use a tool like that, you can you use it to be creative and you can create these works of art that you know, especially if you learn how to control that sort of thing, or you can move to kind of different spots or you take natural things.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: The old film, you just reshoot the top of another film, isn't it?
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: What was the aesthetic?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: It's just doing it digitally.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: But it's it's funny though, because it's like all these all this stuff, all these features in these cameras, it's like it's so cool.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: And it's like you're you're saying you can see what an hour is gonna look like.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: Like I said, people are lazy, they're not gonna use it.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: They have it at their ex at their disposal.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're still not gonna use it.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think I think this AI thing, like, like I said, I got multiple opinions about it.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: But like I just think if people, if people are gonna complain about it, I think that's just them creating an excuse as to why they can't like use it to do what they want to do.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like, oh, like what happened to the good old days where it used to be hard.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: It's like everything, everyone wants shit to be hard.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be hard.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be hard.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: But I'm still a great photographer.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: That's a fact.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: Like your stuff is a standout, and so is your stuff.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: But like, give someone the exact, give someone a GFX who's never used a camera in their life, yours will still be far superior.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: It's funny you say that actually, because um my girlfriend picked up my camera and she goes, Oh, I'm gonna take a photo of your camera.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: And it had like a timer on it, and it was set to like a long exposure from the last time I said she's like, What's wrong with this camera?
15:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not working.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's not a photographer, so I don't expect her to know how to use it.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: But she's like I thought this is a good camera.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and she's like completely like um, you still need to know how to use the camera to make it do its thing.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: If you don't understand like the basics, yeah, you won't be able to get there.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about this on the way up because I I had a laugh.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And and I just said it doesn't matter how much you spend on your kit, you're the the camera itself will only do what the photographer or the person behind it tells them.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a stupid, it's a stupid box, right?
16:06
unknown: Yeah.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: It's a stupid box.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's always been what it is.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, if the person controlling the stupid box doesn't put smart uh inputs into it, yeah, it's not gonna give you an output that you want.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: And and a lot of the times too, we're like, I guess, diving into like what makes a photographer great as well.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: Like a slight deviation, but like you guys interviewed Ken yesterday, Ken Duncan and and Glenn.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: And I look at those guys and I go, look, incredible images.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: So they're great photographers, they really are.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Um but there's there's photographers out there who are just as good, if not better, who no one knows about, who don't shoot full-time, they've got no name for themselves.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: And so what is the difference then?
16:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's the brand, it's the story, it's what they've done around the images.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so they're kind of like it's kind of then like, well, yeah, the photography matters, but what stories are these guys telling?
17:01
SPEAKER_02: And and and what are they able to do with those images to build a brand where people actually then see value in the work because it's art subjective?
17:10
SPEAKER_02: It's like you could you could to to majority of people's eyes have the best image in the world.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: And then we were speaking about abstract last night, yeah, and you got these dudes shooting like a like a rock in the sand with his iPhone and he sells it for 500 grand.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: And you just go, and it's again, it's like people can complain about that, but that guy's just smarter than you are.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, 100%.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: That's like a better opportunity at like selling their work than you did.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the other thing is what we we we asked Glenn on his episode.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And I said, So, what would you say to somebody trying to make it in like where would you say to go and learn?
17:43
SPEAKER_01: He said, Go do a marketing degree.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Go do a marketing degree.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So, if you worry about a master's like in photography, he goes, by all means, if that's what you want to do, do it.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: He goes, but you need to learn how to sell.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it'll just I was kind of taken back because I'm like, okay, yeah, fair enough.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Like I knew marketing's like a big thing, but you got to do a marketing degree.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: And it was just there was me.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: It was blunt and straight to the point.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, okay, yeah, I can do that.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: And he's bang on.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean 100%.
18:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean, to that, um, because yeah, bash Glenn, but to that, like, I would say I would say no, I would not want to get on the bad side of Glenn.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: But no, to to that, I would, I would say, like, not even a marketing degree.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: I would, I would say learn marketing.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: I would say I wouldn't, I wouldn't for me personally, I'm not a massive fan of the of the education system.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: I think it's overpriced and and takes way too long.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, go out in the field.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: Like go out in the field, but learn marketing.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: But that's not what he's saying.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: That's something marketing.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Learn marketing, yeah.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: I've pretty much known you your whole life.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: And um, and that's something you have done.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: You've never just gone, um, I'm gonna do my own thing and work it out as I go.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: That's something that's um I sit there and go, what are you doing?
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, you're right, you're trying to take the slow approach, and here you are.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, 100%.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, how many times we had that conversation?
19:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, do it.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: You had to just go and do it.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: So what are you waiting for?
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Success is showing up and making having a crack.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: As opposed to what?
19:13
SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's the compounding effect as well.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: Like you like success is small things compounded over time.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: And so if you hold back and you wait and you go, oh wait, oh wait, I'll wait, and then I'll make my big move, it doesn't work like that.
19:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't work like that.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: Ship it away.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: So I think that like from the outside, it looks use a person can look successful, but internally, success looks like just constant work.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're like, I gotta keep grinding it all the time.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you're not grinding, you know, you and you don't feel uncomfortable, you're probably not going anywhere.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: But that's what the that's what um social media is.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: It's a false representation of how good somebody actually is in uh in selling work or yeah, how far ahead.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, likes and follows are realistically a false economy.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, as much as we all want them and they're they they can be a good thing, yeah.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Like let's face it, but they are a false economy.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: And you don't make money from likes and follows.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: It's that's 100% right.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: The interesting thing is, even look exactly what you say, where it seems like Instagram and and all this social media is fake.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: I found that when I held held my exhibition, uh, I had people who I hadn't seen for a couple of years, they're like, Oh, it's so good to see you, like you're killing it full-time.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, and I work a full-time job and do photography still.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, no, no, I still work.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: And so does 20% of the industry.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think a lot of artists in general, like not just photographers, yeah, all have these supplementary jobs.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: Photography either tops up their income as a bonus, or they make no money at all.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: They do it because they love it.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or it's a release mentally.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, the thing is you can post on social media, and if you look like you're having a crack, people assume you're full-time and killing it.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I think I think that's what the reality of it is.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I learned about that followers and and likes th a fair while ago because I I would think probably about five or six years ago, I was doing all right.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: I had about 10,000, just under 10,000 followers, and back then it was pretty big.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden I had a bad experience out on a photo shoot or shooting at Koji.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: I had these blokes turn up trying to try and harass me, and then they ended up kept on reporting me.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I got shut down.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: Why would they report you on?
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, because I wouldn't move out of the shot, out of their way.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: I was shooting, like it's a popular spot weekend.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: I got there as early as I do.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm always there super early, and they turned up just as the sun was rising.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: And um Oh, they are the photographers.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they are the photographers, and they were heckling me because they wanted to get the composition that I was.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the high in popular locations.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: If you're the first photographers, the way it goes, it goes anyway.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: It's first distress, dress.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, but yeah, but what like that's not the the point.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm just using that.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: That that's to it.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: And so my my account.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Shut down.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: And then, okay, well, I'll get those followers back because you know, thinking that they I was naive and thinking, oh yeah, they'll they'll follow me as soon as I jump back in.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: No.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Other people just go, that's cool, follow, and then don't even think twice about it.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't mean anything.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: So I think Oh, of course.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: It's building the connections like like we're doing here with the podcast.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Talking to people in person over the internet.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the real connection.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's where that's the community, right?
22:27
SPEAKER_00: Once you build the community and that that actual connection with a person, yeah, that's where success comes from.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Because like Dean and I are just from doing this podcast and meeting the people, are starting to get so many extra connections we didn't have previously.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: And like along the way, meeting like great people who are becoming friends as well.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Like social media is great.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Let's face it.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: It is great because you get to communicate with people.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: It's a free outlet to show you work.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: But it shouldn't be the be all and end all.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: I think like if you chase likes, it's like it's just another drug.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: It's a dopamine release.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: It's a dope me release.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: And that's by design.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: And it can make you feel good.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, especially if that's like if you're if you're shooting to get likes, that that's up to you.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like if the likes are what makes it the photography good for you, or the art good for you.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go for it.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: But if you want to make it doesn't make you money, yeah, sure.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: And too, like it's it's at the end of the day, like you guys speaking about all these connections and stuff, like you can have 200 followers and be a very, very successful creative.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Like you don't need a hundred thousand.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't, but if those 200 people are like a boy, your community, yeah, and they're like raving fans or you've got a strong connection with them, it's like that's all you need.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: You put 200 people in a room, see what it looks like.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you have an exhibition and 200 people show up, even if the place is packed up.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: 50 people in a room, yeah, and you go, this is actually this looks like a lot of people.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: What do you need that for?
24:05
SPEAKER_01: If they're I'd rather have 50 people and 10 of those people are buying my work than having 100,000 people and only one person buying.
24:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: As greater success rate in my absolutely, absolutely numbers on accounts don't mean anything.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: I think because the there's that buying followers sort of economy as well.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Where uh I I don't do it, but I think there's people out there that they buy their followers incrementally to like so their account looks like it's continually growing.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Don't get me wrong, I have looked at it before just because I fell for that track.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm gonna full disclosure, like I've looked at it.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: I've looked at it.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Because it's like, oh, I want to be seen like I'm doing very well.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: And and then and I looked at it, and that was after my account was like because that was like, oh, what am I doing wrong here?
24:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm not getting what I had.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of fell for that, and I'm like, I I'm glad I never did it, but I I seriously did consider it.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: That's and I'm not gonna lie, like, I mean, I know I do know some people that have said, yeah, we bought them for that exact reason.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and full credit to them for disclosing it and saying, Yeah, I bought it because it was served a purpose.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I looked, I like watching those videos where you see people that go, I like, watch me start an Instagram account and get like 2,000 followers and whatever, and and then get a branded ad within, you know, 48 hours.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: And they got to start from scratch and they like say, I'm gonna make a brand.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: And then so they like, you know, they show you how they get a can Canva and they make a logo, they post it, they go outside with their iPhone and they take like 10 photos of themselves and they post it and then put some reels and they go, Oh, look, I go over here, I buy like 500 followers, so it looks a little bit more legit.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then they go, Oh, I'll go buy like 500 likes for the whole account.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And it like does this and it added like 20,000 views to like one of their videos straight away.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: It went straight viral.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's and it's so like that's and that raised another thing where I'm like, now you can pay for views on a reel.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: So people can can manufacture how popular something is straight away.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, and if if you're an influencer, you'd be like, um, you'd be using that.
26:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Because if you if you're an influencer and you have to provide, especially if you're getting paid posts by a brand, and you're like, you like take a photo or whatever you're doing with your brand, and then you're just like, oh, I'm gonna buy 20,000 views, because the amount of money they're probably paying you is still gonna like be then you can factor that into your price and say, oh, 20,000 views, you're instantly on like the Discover page.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then people go, Oh, this must be super popular, and you hosted it 14 minutes ago, and then all of a sudden it's it's going viral.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm honestly, I think that's how a people are going viral.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: But you could you could say this goes back further.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, okay, we're in a new age, new world with social media, but this goes back to the flick dates.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Flick data.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Flickr.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: That's going back.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people back on Flickr, there was there were two things.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: There was likes, saves, and there were views.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And all the awards you'd get when you get awards.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: I was like, what are they what are these awards?
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Are you so many awards?
27:09
SPEAKER_00: What was awards?
27:10
SPEAKER_00: And people could give them to you.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Sunset view of the day or something or that sort of things.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: But what I'm saying is that's those a lot of I remember a guy, he'd never got many likes, but he was like, Well, it's about the views.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, this and and when I caught him one day at work because he had the computer, and all he was doing was hitting the refresh yeah, hit refresh button.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: So so the message I think for the people listening that are just starting out and said, Don't worry about the views.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: The views, sorry.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: No views, no voos, don't worry about that.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: It's all about the art and community.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, seriously.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Oh man, look, love love, love what you do.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Let that let that happen and everything, everything else will come.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's oh man, it's it's a it's a shallow, it's a shallow economy that that we live in.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Is is people which look just comes down to people wanting validation and and love and acceptance and um every everyone operates on a on a level of conditions that we all that we all share.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: It's like, but now we have this uh technology that uh kind of manufactures that uh the problem is it's fleeting and it's not it's it comes and it goes, and it's it doesn't last long.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: And it's and it's fake.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Well it's it's not the same as a human connection.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Like as much as like you social media, you say you've been social with people.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Look at the lockdown, for example, whatever if you had to just only talk to somebody over a video call for like two years, if you're one of those super isolated people, that sucked.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Because you're like you couldn't just like have a chat with someone, you know what I mean?
28:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's like people who like even like going down as far as like um human touch, where you like you can hug your family.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, that's that's a whole other thing, that's like completely gone.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And if you're if you if you go completely internal and you're all social media, you spend your whole life bending your head over.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Like you lose grip with reality.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, and then your grip of reality is like based on like these uh like puppets that are doing these 30-second trend videos and and people who are doing motivational talks who aren't doctors, they're they're influencers or whatever.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they're just full of crap.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, man, it's it's a detector, right?
29:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've we've all got a bullshit detector, and I think that's that's that's why these people don't lust, is because it's like it's people can see through it.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: But how good is it then that if you're an authentic person who loves what they do and you then do what they're doing, you win.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like Dana White, I'm I'm a big fan of the UFC and Dana White, who's the the president of the UFC speaks about it.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: He's like, it is so easy to like do well in business now because everyone is so lazy.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: The actual competition pool, and this is uh maybe not maybe not true in every industry, but like especially online, like if you stick to something for six months, yep, yeah, it's like because no one's doing that.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Like everyone's dead after 10 days.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, we were we were talking about this last night that Carl and I, I mean, over we've been in the game for so long, and we were saying that if you just stick it out, yeah, you're gonna make and then eventually some medicine taking it's taking Carl and I this long.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: It's really stuck.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's taking us like well, I mean, we've been so worried about you know, stepping on toes and all that sort of stuff, and then that's why we started the podcast.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: And then you just go, things are starting to happen because we took that chance and we've still been showing up every day.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: I think it's and I think you're 100% right on that.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it it it's an interesting one too, because I think like not a lot of people outside of the industry would realize.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I know Glenn speaks on this as well, like the photography industry is pretty savage.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you've got a lot of uh you've got a lot of tall poppy syndrome.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: You do have a lot of, and to be honest, look, I mean, I've heard stories, but I'm not thinking about anyone in particular.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm just I just know it through my own experiences that it it is hard to build an authentic community in the photography space.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: And like you alluded to, like you become, you do become a little bit timid and you go, if I go and if I go and chase my dreams, people just gonna put pull me down.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: So maybe it's easier that I just slap fight away.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: But but Glenn also said yesterday, he goes, if you're not, if you're not progressing, you're not doing well, yes, yeah, everything's gonna be smooth sailing, everyone's gonna be, but if you've got the haters, you're doing something right.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
31:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you've got the people.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: He embodies that, yeah.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: He embodies that really well.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, like you all the all the stuff that he's experienced and he's right in the heart of it all.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, but he keeps going.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: And it's like that's that pays dividends.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: He picks up and moves on.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just keeps on going, whatever.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, though the those sort of people as well, uh, there's there's there's a couple of ways to look at that and how people will have a crack at you for you progressing and trying to make your way.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: It's one, they can't do it.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: Two, they want to do it.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: And three, they can't, they're not creative enough to create their own avenue or their own theme to their stuff.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, so they're just shooting whatever's popular.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And that just becomes you just become lethargic if you do that, if you ask me.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: And and and that's why I've gone down the route I have, because it's like, well, no one's doing it here.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: It's something I enjoy, and it's been a natural progression over 16 years of shooting.
32:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Like I started off doing black and whites, and then Glenn showed me Michael Levin.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And I've just come across his work and I've just gone, wow.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's unreal.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: So then I started trying to get to that point, and then I'm like, okay, well, now how can I make this my own?
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't get that.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't get these awesome, we don't get these awesome, like foggy, misty ponds and stuff over there.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, how can I create that here?
32:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: That's how you get it.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: It's about creating your own thing.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: So if these if people that want to hate, they should look within before they start looking out and accusing other people.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, of course.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
33:07
SPEAKER_02: Or it's it's but it's exactly what it is.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: It's the outward is the projection of the inward.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's funny.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: You see, you see some people and like uh I just love reading people in general, but it's like you you look at people and they're going rah-rah rah rah rah.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And you just want to put a mirror up to their face and go, Look at yourself.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: It's just and and you know, you know what?
33:30
SPEAKER_02: That's not me having a dig.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: That's the it's the absolute truth.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: It's the truth.
33:33
SPEAKER_02: It's the absolute truth.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: But that's but the truth offends people, so of course it does.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Of course it does.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: People don't like hearing the truth.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: That's too hard to do.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: It goes back to your your point on being let people being lazy.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it takes effort to notice what it's what something's wrong.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it takes it takes effort to be self-aware and realise who you are and what you're what you're you know, what you're putting out into the world.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: And the people who aren't so self-aware, maybe they're the people that are trying to knock you down.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: At one, they might be not happy with their own lives, so they're trying to bring you down because you look like you're doing something else.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: But the people who are most successful, they have their own demons too.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: They're sure we're some of the people I when I speak to them, they're people who have some of the biggest demons, but they just overcome it by pushing through continually.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and and that's where I wish people would uh a lot of photographers would start building community instead of competition.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, communities, communities where it's at.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Like we're we all in the same medium use photography or use painting or sculpture.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Find those communities and just join them.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: And then you're like-minded people, you don't need to worry, and then you'll realize that people aren't out to get you like you're like you see on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you chuck your work.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: Because people always bring you down to make themselves look better.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but when they're in person, they're not gonna do that.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: So you're better off just jumping off that if that's the way it is, and meet people out in person and go out and do what you want to do.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: So I I'd say community is the way to go.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it feats all those demons and you don't have that problem.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And you'll make great friends along the way.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I I I'm not sure how what you guys are like, but I know I had a lot of friends growing up because I played different sports and went through and I don't see any of them now because I'm out not all I see some of them.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: But I mean But what I'm saying is I think it's a life, it's a life transitional period too.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: I go out and see people with that I'm you know, I'm I'm I see Carl probably once a week almost and talk to him on the phone all the time, and that's through photography.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Like I talk to you, I talk to Glenn, and I talk to all these people through photography through art because that's your transition.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: So you can create some of those strongest bonds if you find the right community.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's about when you get older, you have more responsibility, right?
35:44
SPEAKER_00: You've got three kids, your wife, you know, you're busy work.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: But regardless.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: If I've got kids or someone's married or whatever, everybody has a responsibility regardless.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what it is, some people might, it's just your direction's different.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, your life starts becoming more busy, right?
35:59
SPEAKER_00: When you're 20, right?
36:00
SPEAKER_00: So when you're in your young 20s, you have less commitments.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: You you're more likely to have a bigger circle of friends because you still have that school connection just to go.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: And as you start to get older, you know, people start to change and people start getting, you know, some people want to stay in the party life, other people like want to start getting invested in property or building their own business.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And people go in these different directions, and what they find is um these people no longer serve you.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: And if people aren't going your direction, you don't want to be surrounded by them, you don't include them anymore.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: It's like if you see all these motivational things, so if your friends aren't talking about progress, money, and this, you should get new friends.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, you should be around the surrounded with the people that are important to where you want to go to and the energies you want to attract.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: I want to because we've got Andrew here today, he did exactly this.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: I used to give it to him all the time.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: And when he turned 18, he wasn't going out drinking, he wasn't really going out clubbing, he wasn't doing this, and then he packed his bags and he went to Canada for a photo trip.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sitting there going, Oh, I'm sitting there going, oh yeah, and that's exactly what he said to me.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing, man?
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Man, you're you're working and drinking.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm out in Canada.
37:09
SPEAKER_04: I didn't say I didn't say that.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: That's the real story.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: What's the real story?
37:13
SPEAKER_00: What's the real story?
37:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, so there is that a D-O-G or a D-A-W-G?
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, double.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, take us through that Canada, you Canada trip because you came away with a few like real good friends from that trip, and it and it's about that community.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I wanted to bring it up because it is that community base that we speak about.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: But you went over there and you made some good people good friends.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look, I I did, I did, and and I met some I met some great people.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: I would say, yeah, there was quite a handful that I connected with online.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: I didn't really meet, I didn't meet any other photographer over there.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, like unless they were just like out in the field or whatever.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Um there was a guy, um, Andrew Studer, who I connected with.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: We're similar ages, and he was in uh where's he in?
38:05
SPEAKER_02: He's in Oregon.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: Oregon or around Seattle.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Um and we were we were gonna tee up to we were gonna tee up to go on a shoot, but it didn't happen.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, Canada was interesting.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: I went in with like a with a clear plan.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Like I I was I was gonna get the van, I was gonna travel for two months.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: I think it did 30,000 Ks.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Um over the over the two months.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna I was gonna do a film over there, it was gonna be great.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: Like, and for the most part, it went that way.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: Um but what's what's really interesting is that I was like it's interesting you speak about the whole drinking thing, is because I was too strict.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:48
SPEAKER_02: And that was something that I learned being over there that was that I was like, no, I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna create this field.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not about fun, it's about getting this done.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: Like this isn't about like this is obviously about being out of nature and doing what I want to do, but it's like it's not about me like making friends and going out at night and this and that.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: Like the the first couple of weeks I was with um, because I ended up traveling with two, two of two of my best mates who are still my best mates to this day.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: They were over there and and we went.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: And that's what really I think helped me learn those lessons was because they were kind of just they were tagging along, like because I had everything planned out.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: They were just like, yeah, we'll learn obviously share the costs and and whatever.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I had a couple of experiences with them where I just was so like internally frustrated because things weren't going my way.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: And like the things weren't, and it was like, and it was as if they were holding me back from that.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, but speaking about the whole mirror thing, like it's kinds 2020 vision.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: But had I had I learned quicker, I would have learned that hang on, dude, just like go with the flow.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: Like have some fun.
40:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, it was my greatest lesson to this day because I I I went over there and had an incredible time, best memories, but I think I I lacked a lot of empathy during that period of my life.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: I was very like, I was very in my zone, what I wanted to do.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't about anything other than that was a waste of time for me.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: And and and even like even to this day, like that's a that's a that's a a subconscious belief for me.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: It's like because my my dad was work hard.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: Like it's that.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: And it is a pretty generation where all our parents, our dads are all like that.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: Of course, and grandparents, of course, but you could also say money's made made flat the stack.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: Go to work, you go get ring up sick, then you go, yeah, dad ring up and go, Are you homesick today?
40:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he goes, stop being a sook, get up, and go freaking work.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: Unless you're crippled, you're going to work.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: And you could be like, all right, and you learn that work ethic where you have to grind.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: You can get up and go up.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: But what you say about being too strict on yourself, you could also argue the fact I was too loose.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: That's what I say.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Opposites.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: But so I would be out every weekend.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: I'll be in King's Cross, having a having a drink, having a party, and then going to work and stuff like that.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: And then I remember we were kind of having a con a few years back now, I think I would have been just in my early mid-20s.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: And um, and I remember saying that all the things that I missed out on, like all that money I spent out there spending$250 a night in the in the city just on drinking.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: What for I could$250 a night back then is probably like spending a thousand now to your money or those out.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I mean, and I s and I see you going away with Glenn.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I wish I could do that.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, I could have, but I went too far the other way.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And then again, so there's a bit of give and take on both sides, really, isn't it?
41:57
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's good.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: And and the funny thing is that we both realize it and you come in, and it's by that, and it's by conversation.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's yeah, there's a there's a there's a point where you you do go one way or the other, and and just like a pendulum, you just you swing go out this way, and then eventually you swing, and and eventually you find that point.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: And I and I think that's what happens.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: Like it sounds like you guys are sort of in that period.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I've really just started to come into that period where you start to work out who you are and what you want to do and and what fulfills you.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you start to you start to slowly care less about what people think.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:36
SPEAKER_02: And you it's that maturity.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: And and it's like you were saying before these stages of life, it's like the early 20s is like you just don't really, you just kind of do things.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: You just really you're sitting there, you're reactive, and you you sometimes you're not self-conscious enough to go like, hey, I don't want to be with around this circle.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Or you know, I think there's more well to like mindfulness around now where the younger generation of people are more open to that.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's one thing social media has been good for is opening up the world.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: Opening up the world and and having access to these people with this type of education, where you you can sort of take that on and go, oh, actually, yeah, I'm I don't agree with that.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: And I I shouldn't have to accept that.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Whereas I think in my generation there wasn't media like that.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: And then so you you kind of just thought you were almost restricted to the circle you're in, unless you were a world traveler, which at that time um wasn't something that was that accessible.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
43:39
SPEAKER_00: So you kind of in this circle, like these are the circle of people I know.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: And you uh you get I think it was a the world was almost a smaller place then where it just felt smaller.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't this massive expanse, and it was also there wasn't FOMO because sure you were like because you were so limited to the circle you had access to.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, cool, that person's like that.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's I can achieve that.
44:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: But now there's this like everything's so open and it's so much coming in that you're like, oh, this person's like a billionaire.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, well, I don't know any billionaires.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, six-year-old billionaire.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: You're like, what the fuck?
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: I think it's crazy.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: So you're like there's things like that where you you're open to a huge amount of of like uh stimulation now.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Whereas that didn't even exist when I was that age.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Talking talking about your um changing direction and finding out who you are, you've just quit your job.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: In in and what what are you pursuing?
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so it's it's it's literally I haven't quit yet.
44:49
SPEAKER_02: Um so it's it's I mean how far do how far do I go back with this?
44:57
SPEAKER_02: Because like we're speaking before about how in your in your 20s you kind of you kind of just do things and it's like some of it's good, some of it's bad.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: Again, hindsight's 2020 vision, you learn your lessons and whatever.
45:12
SPEAKER_02: But for me, like I look, I look back between sort of 17 and maybe like 23.
45:20
SPEAKER_02: And I just like because I had the ignorance, yeah, it was like it was so great because I just did things.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: And coming into my later 20s, I started to become I started to become I guess more fearful of doing things.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: And the fear of consequence really creeps in, right?
45:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:42
SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know that it was fear of consequence.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: Like I know that is a big thing, but I think for me, I kind of just slowly fell more into a into a state of people pleasing.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: And this is something that I've been looking at a lot more recently, is I've I've subconsciously for a long, a long time now uh listened to what other people think I should do versus what I what I actually want to do.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a big reason as to why for a long time I've I've moved around a lot and done a lot of different things.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: And um, that's been that's been a really frustrating point in my life because it is it is tricky when you become so passionate about something and you're like, this is it, and then it just dies, dies away.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: And I think one thing that I I realized recently was that it was like, yeah, because a lot of these things that I've chosen, I've told myself I wanted to do them.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: But actually, underneath all of that is what people think I should be doing.
46:44
SPEAKER_02: And taking that on too much.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: And so what I kind of what I kind of came to was in the position I was in, I was really skeptical to go into it because I kind of did things backwards, like straight out of school, I started a business.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, had a job for like five months at Office Works and then went out on my own.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, because things just lined up because I was so ignorant that things just came to me.
47:08
SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, cool.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: And then um I did all the things and and so taking this full-time job was like was actually scary because it was different, because it was different.
47:21
SPEAKER_02: And so I I really struggled because I was like, but what if I don't like it?
47:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, what if it doesn't work out?
47:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: And I was working with, I was working with a mentor of mine at the time, and he's like, man, he's like a a guru around understanding like deep, deep human conditioning, subconscious trauma, all of that kind of stuff.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: And and he was like, he was like, well, if you don't like it, quit.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like if you don't like it, just you know, think about like like in the state that I was in, I was so scared of letting people down that I was like, quitting isn't an option.
47:57
SPEAKER_02: It's like I've either got to do it or I don't.
48:00
SPEAKER_02: And like if I do it, I have to stay in it.
48:03
SPEAKER_02: And he's like, dude, just like if it doesn't work out, just move on.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: And so that's so that's what I did.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: And I really enjoyed it because the reason I took the position was to go into a place where I could learn from great leaders, learn how a business is run.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: Um and just all of the all of the little nuances and the little lessons that you learn that I I don't think like it's kind of like, oh yeah, like I kind of learned that.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: But they're actually really important lessons.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like understanding how to communicate better, understanding how to take on challenges.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: Because when I came into this full-time job, it was like, she's like, oh yeah, it's it's it's gonna be challenging.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: She's like, I'm not gonna lie.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: It was fucking challenging.
48:45
SPEAKER_02: Like it was really challenging.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: And we've we've just had about two months of just like big projects, a lot going on.
48:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I was I was in marketing.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: That that was the role for a for a financial business.
48:59
SPEAKER_02: And I've actually really enjoyed it.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: But what it also really allowed me to see was where I do really want to go.
49:06
SPEAKER_02: And it gave me that time to go, you know what?
49:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, what are what are my passions?
49:13
SPEAKER_02: What are what are all of my passions and how can I blend them all together to create something that is me?
49:20
SPEAKER_02: And that's where even before I took the job, I'd thought about I really want to do podcast production.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: Like that's something I've done for the last six years on and off, had multiple podcasts, produced multiple podcasts, even in this business now.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: We're we're gonna start a podcast.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, that's what I want to do.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: And I want to produce my own podcast.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's over the last month, I've just I've just been building this whole strategy out, this whole plan out, this everything.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, I just know it's gonna work.
49:51
SPEAKER_02: And um, so now it's literally uh at the at the point where it's like, okay, not that I'm even really ready to now step into it.
49:59
SPEAKER_02: I just set a timeline and I was just like, that's when I'm gonna do it.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like you're bringing that 18-year-old self back into the into play.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely it's funny, it's with the maturity of where you're at now, bringing that, bringing a bit part of that, bringing the two worlds together.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, correct.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: You're using that bias for action, right?
50:16
SPEAKER_00: And time and speed matters, you know.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: So it's like you're like, if you don't do it now, you when are you gonna do it?
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Kind of thing.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that comes with age.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: Does that sound familiar?
50:26
SPEAKER_00: Start becoming more cautious.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Sounds familiar.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: It sounds exactly like myself.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: That's what we did with this.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, this is like exactly absolutely.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: We kind of spoke about it, and then it's like, we should make a podcast because like how can we we spoke to someone about brand awareness.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they're like, how do we how do we build a bigger brand around us?
50:45
SPEAKER_00: And we're like, oh, we'll just start like something new.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: And then together we started like the it's like, let's talk about a podcast.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: We had a logo in like two days, and then we we were recording like a week later.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: We went out on a shoot and we'd just gone, we should do it.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: Because we'd we'd met we'd spoke like full disclosure, we'd spoken about it probably good five years ago.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: Just before COVID, we spoke about it.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: And then we like, nah, we put it on the backbone.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: That that whole imposter syndrome come in into play and the whole consequence, and oh no, we won't do this because you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: Excuse, excuse, excuse.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: So we put it away and then we're we're talking about it because we've been chatting a lot.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: And we created a little group, little community of guys together, and we were talking about it.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: And then we started talking, we're going, we should actually do this.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: Then we went out on a photo shoot, and then we'll out down at Bombo down to the Ilaw Wara.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: We're out taking photos, and we're like, Yeah, let's do it.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: And next thing you know, I've gone, we're like, What would we call it?
51:41
SPEAKER_01: And we'll call and we're going to all these things.
51:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm going, what about the gallery?
51:44
SPEAKER_01: Everyone, every artist wants to have a gallery.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: And Carl just goes, Yeah, it's good.
51:49
SPEAKER_01: Bang, I said, we've got a Facebook, we've got an Instagram page.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: She's like, What?
51:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just created it.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Dean's like, as soon as you mention it, he's like, Yeah, we have a new Instagram cap.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: And he's a logo, I I want to secure the login.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we gotta go.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we create all these things.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: And but I like what you're doing.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: Like you might not be ready for it, but I mean Are you ever ready?
52:09
SPEAKER_01: Really?
52:10
SPEAKER_00: Are you ever ready?
52:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, you it's like if you were like you when you started your family, were you ready to start a family?
52:14
SPEAKER_00: No.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: You're crapping yourself.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: It's never a right time to do anything.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: You just make it work.
52:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, of course.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:18
SPEAKER_02: And look, I guess when I when I say that too, it's like like I'm I'm pretty um, I don't know, I guess you could call it in some ways irresponsible.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: Like I like a lot of people, and and I completely respect this.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: A lot of people like, I've got to have six months worth of expenses to make sure that if I go and do this, I'm just like, I just know I'm gonna make it work.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: Like, and look, that's a that's a so that's like a super confidence.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: Well, no, because I also come with 10 years of experience.
52:48
SPEAKER_02: Yes, essentially the same industry.
52:50
SPEAKER_02: I've got the network, I've got the skills, I've got the equipment, I've got the business sense.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, even though there's so much I've I still know I've got to learn, like I'm being confident, but I'm it's honest, it's not like I'm starting from I'd say it's like everything all the experiences you've put yourself through have built you up to be able to have the confidence to take.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: It's exactly to make that now you it's obviously here, you're like, I've built these connections from on the side through y'all.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, knowing the way Andrew works as well, you know that if he doesn't have, he knows he's gonna get in a way.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: So see if you've got, and I mean, and it's not just for you, like with a lot of people, if you've got a nest egg, you're gonna really you're gonna go, I've got that nest egg, I'll just rely on that.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have it, it forces you to go, I need to get one.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: So doing your like I that's I don't know, I've known you've done that in the past where you just go, oh, I'll just make that money.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll do whatever I can, I'll work on whatever job I can do.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And then that's the drive that I've always known you to have.
53:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, because I guess like I I've experienced it also in relative safety as well.
53:51
SPEAKER_02: Like I've had a I I had a good um a good business and things were going well.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: And then a guy calls me up and he goes, he was a it was a commercial client, but he had a real estate business, massive portfolio, and he loved art.
54:05
SPEAKER_02: He had this huge art collection.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: And he was like, he was like, how much, how much would uh you charge to shoot all of my art just for like a catalogue they're looking at selling stuff, but also they wanted to insure all the art so they needed all the photos.
54:22
SPEAKER_02: I was like, fuck, never done that before.
54:23
SPEAKER_02: But I was like, yeah, easy.
54:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think it was 75 bucks an image.
54:27
SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep.
54:28
SPEAKER_02: So he goes, sweet.
54:30
SPEAKER_02: Um he goes, sweet, I've got 150 pieces.
54:37
SPEAKER_02: I was like, all right.
54:38
SPEAKER_02: So two and a half days of shooting and with with art too, like I had to learn very quickly how to shoot art.
54:45
SPEAKER_02: Like you can't have light.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: So you've shoot in a dark room long exposure.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Dark room, long exposure, macro lens.
54:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, macro, you have to be flat and everything has to be square, like whatever.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: And so I just winged the whole thing.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: Great card.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: Two and a half days, two and a half days, um, outsourced all the editing for 500 bucks, pocketed, pocketed nine and a half grand from two and a half days of work.
55:10
SPEAKER_02: That taught me that it's like you can make money and you and you don't have to work hard for it.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and like that's that's and and those experiences show you that it's there's people out there who will pay like you if you not that I really shoot much corporate, but uh I shot in in shots of pharmaceutical businesses and they have to spend money.
55:32
SPEAKER_02: And so they're like, Yeah, they've got a budget for it.
55:34
SPEAKER_02: They don't just take okay, let's do some video content.
55:37
SPEAKER_02: Hey, we got four grand, what can you do?
55:39
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, cool, I'll come in and shoot some interviews.
55:41
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, sweet.
55:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's just like like and then and then you and then you come out into the local community and and people don't want to pay you a hundred bucks for a day shoot.
55:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like there's a spectrum, but it's like if you if you if you see you gotta fly to cloud that you gotta fly, but you gotta fly that cloud.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: If you work for business, that's where the money is.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you work for the general public, the the there's the budget's not I have to spend this.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: That budget that they're spending on, if a family's spending money for a portraiture shoot, or they're taking that out of some other part of money or their savings to use it.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: Whereas a business is like, like you said, we have a budget of this.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: It has to be spent because next year, if we spend$2,000 this year, we'll get$2,000 next year because we didn't use$4,000.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: So they need to use that.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: So next year they get$5,000.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, we would, again, we were talking about this um about finding, finding your client, your market.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, photography to buy it as a piece of art is not cheap.
56:45
SPEAKER_01: It's not cheap for us to produce either.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, we can all go and print something out, say you want a nice print, we can go print something out for a hundred bucks.
56:54
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be the best quality, but we we we could print it out.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you won't get very much.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: It'd be like going to like a Kmart or something like that and buying something for$15.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna fall apart in about two weeks.
57:07
SPEAKER_01: But we can, we the stuff that we do, we pride ourselves on the quality.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: And and and no offense to the people who can't afford to buy art.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: I can't afford to buy art.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I can barely afford to produce it half the top.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: But for uh, that's the client.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: We're looking for the the client that is willing to buy art as a either as a collection or just to have on their wall.
57:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: And so it's about finding that market.
57:31
SPEAKER_01: If you're happy working for$100 and that gets you by and you enjoy it, go do it.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: If if you're if if you can you want to, you know, maximize your income and you think your quality's good and and all that sort of stuff, and people want to want to pay that money, there's there's a big difference there.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: You're only as good as what someone wants to pay you.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: So if someone wants to pay you four grand for a video or um a few thousand dollars for a painting, um, like say Ken Duncan or Glenn, they demand that because their quality is fantastic and their marketing's great, their outlays are big.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, someone like us, we can we can ask that, but whether whether or not someone's willing to buy that office is a different story.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's all about finding finding your your market and your niche and finding that that thing and going with it.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's the key, really, when you're creating a media or a content or piece of art or whatever.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: Also, like we were talking about just before, right?
58:24
SPEAKER_00: It's the the range of products that you can have.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: Like if you see Ken and Glenn and many other photographers now, you walk, if you they have a gallery, you walk in and they'll have like ticket, small ticket items like puzzles, postcards, yeah, yeah, sheets, pillows, all these sorts of stuff.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: I've got a pillow at home.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: They'll have their big, they have their big prints still, yeah.
58:44
SPEAKER_00: But then the average punter can still walk away with a poster or something for$20 or$40.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Those little eight by tens in a little map with a map board, they're brilliant.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: You can pick one of the$25 and 20 bucks.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: Once you go down to that level, like a pillow, no one cares what the print looks like on the pillow.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, hey, I got this from this person's gallery.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, and no one really cares how everyone knows the quality of the print on a pillowcase is not going to be good.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, the colours don't have to be perfect.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's because it's about their experience going to that location.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: It's like either they know the location or they their the location was the gallery.
59:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
59:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, like, oh, I visited this place and I bought this piece of and brought it home with me.
59:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
59:28
SPEAKER_00: As opposed to being, you know, it's not always about the huge sale because, you know, it's scale is for every big business is about scale and low profit.
59:40
SPEAKER_00: And that's where these guy, these people are doing that.
59:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think we see the big ticket item and we think we have to reach the big ticket item sale, but they can't reach the big ticket item sale.
59:51
SPEAKER_00: You're not selling a large volume at like small, small uh incremental uh profit.
59:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and they're not so they're not selling, they're not selling big ticket because they don't actually believe that it's worth that.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_02: And this is something that I've learned as well, like speaking on all these little nuances and and I think that's why it's important, like that experience, especially when if you're making a making a work transition or whatever, and I've spoken about this before, it's like experience and just want to give first and everything else will come.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_02: But to back this up, like I learned from two builders, because I've done I've done a bit in the building industry um in the last couple of years.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_02: And when I think about two, two of two of my biggest clients, um, one isn't a one isn't a client, but he's a client of the business that I work for, um, and and another one who is a client who just sold a$7 million home in Wombi, um, his own development, is that these guys, and and I also use Ken and I use Glenn as an example, these guys embody their ideal buyer.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_02: And what I mean by that is that a builder, so you've got you've got your builder who struggles to get by.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, he complains, he has no money, he's like his business isn't going very well, he doesn't get the work, and if he does, it's all the smaller stuff.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_02: And then you've got the big builder who's like, he's got shit coming to him left, right, and center.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_02: He can throw away stuff if he wants to, but he just takes the big stuff.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_02: And what's the difference?
1:01:21
SPEAKER_02: They're both human beings, they're both great builders, whatever.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_02: The difference is that one of them believes that his product is worth it, but he also embodies that ideal buyer.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: So he has the great home.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_02: He knows all of the language that the ideal buyer wants to hear, which isn't the materials and isn't all of all of the construction and the intricacies of the build.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_02: It's convenience and emotion.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_02: And hey, look, this is going to give you the best view integral.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_02: Like you imagine sitting out here with all your friends, because people with a lot of money who want to buy these kinds of homes, they want to impress their friends.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_02: That's a big element of why they want to buy nice homes, is because they want to be seen as the person who has the nice home.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_02: So you have to speak to that emotion.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: Glenn, he's got amazing images in his house.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_02: Ken, you guys told me this morning, he's got a gallery in his house.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_02: Like if you're not, if you're not going to be the person, if you're not going to embody your ideal buyer, then you're not going to have the same mindset.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_02: And so therefore, you're not going to have the same belief system.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I agree.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_02: And so energetically, you're not going to make the sale.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_02: It's just not going to happen.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: And I'm totally with you because there was a point for a long time there at my first house that I owned, I had no artwork on any of the walls.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: And then it took me a while like the to realize, well, why am I not buying, why is no one buying an embedded?
1:02:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have anything up in my house to myself.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I had one photo, and the only reason it was there is because I put it there.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, not just because I put it there, I just had it laid around.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, oh, this is fine.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: I'll just put it here.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't well lit.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't in a good spot.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: It was just like it is what it is.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_01: I had it, I'm like, oh, yeah.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: It was an amazing picture.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: It was a photograph of um uh Mount Field in Tassie, waterfall up there, and uh, it was on acrylic mount done done by um Glenn at Created for Life.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_01: Amazing print, but it was in a spot that no one could see.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, you could see if you look down that alleyway and down that part of the house, and you go, oh yeah.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: And now you go to my house and I'm working on, I've got prints everywhere just waiting to go up on walls just because I can't figure out where I want to put them.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_01: And and and I think you're 100% right that if you want to sell, you've got a house for yourself.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because then you know what it looks like on your wall, and you go, I really like that.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_02: And that is that is worth what what I paid for and some.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_02: And I actually I actually look at that and I think it really compliments the home.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_02: And I think that adds value to the home.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the times that's that's why people buy art is to is to compliment the home.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: But not you could take it the step further as well and just turn around and go, okay, well, if you don't hang, you don't know if it's going to look good, if it actually suits a house.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_01: You can you can change the way you shoot or you you or you paint or you sculpt.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, you can do all that sort of stuff.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: And go, will this suit my house?
1:04:16
SPEAKER_01: You don't know until you hang it.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_01: It's funny enough you say that.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_01: And then because I have tailored my whole, my whole portfolio now is tailored around the house that I would live in.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_01: So, and and the way I look and gone, if I wouldn't print it, I wouldn't post it.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's funny you say that, right?
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: Because I found it's using like apps like Canve, you know, the one where you can um put your artwork on the wall, like digitally.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: And you can pick the framing and the way it looks on the wall.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_00: And the minute I started using that program, I started hating sunrise and sunset photos that were like vibe super vibrant.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_00: Because I was like, But there's nothing, it looks garbage on the wall.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_00: I was like, there's nothing on the wall.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: And then it made me think.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: I was like, all these pictures that I was like, that I was exhibiting, I was like, it doesn't match, it wasn't matching the homes.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_00: And then I found the more abstract and the more uh muted and really natural colours, like the colours you like to produce now.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh they you put them in the room and then visually they looked like the picture looked completed.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: It looked like a you know, like a real estate or interior shot with this like great piece of art on the wall.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, is this why people don't buy sunrise and sunsets anymore?
1:05:29
SPEAKER_00: Is it for not because they're not good?
1:05:32
SPEAKER_00: It's the world has changed the way they look at things.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you think about the room we're sitting in here now.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_01: We're in an apartment in Terregor overlooking the the water there.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: And in here, what do you see in the room?
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: There's muted tones, and the art on the wall has nice teal and and blue colours that match the ocean but complement the furniture.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: It's I think it's the world has become a place where because it is so voyeuristic, yeah, and you see great photos.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: Constantly, it's not just what you could get.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_00: You see that, oh, look at these great homes, look at these great interiors.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: This is the life that the rich live or live.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: And then you see that.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: And people go, oh, and now, you know, you could go into like places like Kmart and Target and all these little like the cheaper versions of homeless stores, they cater for this exact look, you know.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_00: And so now it's not this super expensive thing.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_00: It's an everyday person can afford to deck their home out in a super stylish way.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: And they're some of those home like house flipping shows and things like that.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it showed that, you know, everyday people can now deck their home out to look like this super lavish hotel.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_01: But but but Ken, when we record with Clinton, he he would say that his pictures, his photographs and prints are a window into another, take you out.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_01: That's the other version of the story.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's the other side, right?
1:06:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_01: And I and I kind of believe like yes, we are sitting currently in a in a muted sort of setting.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: My house is like a similar, similar tones.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: Like my I got light grey cabinetry, I've got tan floors, like that sort of wood panelling timber on the floor, white walls.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: So something like Ken's work or Glenn's or even yours, like Andrew and and Carl, like you guys do this vibrant picture, that would go with it as well if you have the muted tones, because now it's a thing that pops off your wall.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_01: So now's the best time that any any artist that has poppy pop colours or muted colors, your work just goes with everything.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you also look at if you if you go into, and and I've been into a few homes that have Ken's work all over the wall.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_02: The common theme, and it's not not everywhere, but but a big common theme is all the houses.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_02: It's like you can tell it's people in their 70s living there.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_02: Like it's all the floral furniture.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, everything is busy.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: Everything is like nothing is what it used to be.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_02: It's what it used to be.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_00: I remember everyone had floral.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember back in the day?
1:08:06
SPEAKER_01: I remember the houses I I've lived in a couple because we've moved a couple of times.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: And I remember the first house we lived in, it was very dark.
1:08:13
SPEAKER_01: And and and it says, and what Ken says about the the photos about being a window to somewhere, that was it was a great because it was so bright and vibrant, it took away from the darkness and the beautiness of a house.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_01: You can just look at that.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_01: And and that was the same with my uncle.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: If you're if you lived in an average home back in the day, you'd have like a one, like if you had two light globes in the one room, it was like next level.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_00: But how many of those like one mini chandeliers did they have that had those candle light globes?
1:08:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you'd put it in, and you'd have like you know, 20 lumens in the room.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_00: You're sitting in mood lighting and you'd have like this crazy ornate, you know, red glass around it, and the whole room would be rose colored.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like and now everything's is designed to be bright and airy and well lit and open.
1:09:02
SPEAKER_01: A lot of houses can design to be open.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_01: I think, I think today, more so than ever, that it is the best time to be an artist of what it doesn't matter what you do, because there's gonna be somewhere that your art is gonna suit.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot of new houses, a lot of because there's so many renovation shows on TV.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: People are like, I'll give that a crack.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, COVID was the best thing for it because people did a lot of things for their house.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_01: They made like they were in their house and go, oh, they were in their house more.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, this doesn't work.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna paint that wall.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_01: Now it's a big white wall.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_01: What can I put there?
1:09:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_01: That couch is white or grey, or a nice big green or like deep blue picture.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: So there comes your aerial shots or big shots of ocean or forest shots.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_01: Or for the other thing, you've got a black and white photo, it's very well in there.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_01: Because it would complement the wall, be nice to just be sitting there, or pastel colours or macro, there's there's so many things that you can go.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: So I just don't think you limit yourself with your print.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_01: If you want to do it, you do it.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_00: Don't let anyone else tell you what you can do.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_00: It's funny say because I found that sometimes if I marketed like the mistake shot from the day, yeah.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_00: Like the like something that you would consider is like a throwaway.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_00: Um I think the one that would come to me, I got this one shot I called it like uh watercolor coastal storm.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_00: And um, I literally bumped the tripod, I shot it at 200 mil, just literally just above the horizon, just as the clouds, and that was it of this storm rolling in right on sunset.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_00: So I had that real blue underneath with the like the pink on the top of the clouds, and I knocked it and it was all blurry.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm one of these people who doesn't throw a single photo away.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: I'll just keep everything on my hard drive, no matter what it is.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'll keep it because I'm like, I always find down the track, there'll be some reason that I want that.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I'm a little bit like the universe gives you things on purpose.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_00: I I I feel the universe gives you stuff because I went into, I was like shopping around to like buy stuff for like an event for somebody, or buying a bunch of chairs because they're having a comedy event at a gallery, and we're like buying all the chairs, and we're in Kmart, and we're looking and like we look, I go, look at the colours there.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_00: They're like just pink and purple on like everything at the time.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I've got a picture that could be exactly like that.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: And it was this one that I bumped.
1:11:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I went home and I like did like one second of processing to get it out of raw, you know.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know what?
1:11:30
SPEAKER_00: I reckon I'll print like 50 inch on canvas because canvas was like the rage right then.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: I print it on canvas and put it on the wall, and it was like people came in and started fighting over it the day it was on the wall in the gallery.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, two people, I want it.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_00: No, I want it.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_00: And people were they started offering more money.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_00: Start beating.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_00: For a mistake, I was like, the the biggest mistake was such a success because that picture was gone the day it hung on the wall.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_01: But it was a mistake, it was a mistake with intent.
1:12:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, it wasn't even with intent.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_01: That was actually a mistake.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_01: The intent, the intent comes from you went out that day to capture a particular photo and the mistake made the photo into what it was.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's an intent mistake.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_00: And then I think it's like that comes down to seizing an opportunity, right?
1:12:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:12:17
SPEAKER_00: Like you're, I don't know about you, but when I'm looking, if you're all looking at things when you're out, you're I'm always looking, going, I look at go, oh, do I have a photo that looks like that?
1:12:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, do I have something, do I have something that looks like that?
1:12:27
SPEAKER_00: And I I think uh I think I'm one of those people who does it.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_00: I think you really settle yourself in your style, Dean.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you've like settled yourself.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_00: You you've always used amazing pictures, Andrew.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_00: I used to see all the time.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_00: And now you're mostly video.
1:12:40
SPEAKER_00: Um I I never settled myself for one style all the time.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_00: I might present one style to everyone else, but I shoot heaps of garbage.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_00: Just because I like I like the idea of it.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: At the time, I keep it, and sometimes that's what I bring it out and it works.
1:12:58
SPEAKER_02: And that's just evolution the self.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_02: Like you look at who you who you were when you were 20 or 25, or whenever you started shooting, and it's like that's who you were, and so that's what you're into as a photographer, and that's the style that you like, and that's also what's in at the moment.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_02: And the people that influence you at that time.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_02: That's a big bought the styles.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, it's it's I think that's an interesting point because a lot of people, like we were saying before, we got this whole tall poppy syndrome, people want to drag each other down in the industry and whatever.
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: And then you got people who are like, no, I want to like, I want to be unique, I want to do my thing, and what everyone is influenced by everyone to some degree.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_02: And so, like, even your shots, um, the one you showed me this morning of uh was it Italy?
1:13:47
SPEAKER_02: Italy on the influence.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, well, I should ask you without assuming, like, was there a shot that you saw before you went to Europe that was similar to that that you were like, I want to get like compositionally, or like when you were looking at where you wanted to go?
1:14:04
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say it was there was a shot that influenced that image at all.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was the location.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_01: Like I'd seen photos of that place.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_01: That's what I mean.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_01: And and my mum's family being from Italy and all that sort of stuff.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd always had seen images from that area.
1:14:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:14:21
SPEAKER_01: But that composition I hadn't seen at that time.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_01: I'd seen a lot from um, a lot from front-on and and things like that, but never I was just walking, we're all sitting at a restaurant because we're we're there as a in a group, was there on a top deck tour or something like that.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_01: And we're sitting at one of the restaurants for lunch, and I've just gone, wow, I could see it.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_01: I have I had my camera with me, and I just walked down, look at that, and just went out and took a photo.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: And and that photo that's on there now, which will I can share later on a later date.
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's that wasn't the original shot.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_01: I actually had that more vibrant.
1:14:57
SPEAKER_01: I brought out all the yellows.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: I brought processed that a few times.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_01: I I've done that probably six times.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_01: I've done I've done I've done three different, I've done three different black and white photos and I've done three different colour versions.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: Dean Dean loves a process and a reprocess.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_00: Um perfectionism.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_00: And also the way you you sort of develop style, your own style over the time.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's what's yeah, it drives you to like, oh, I'm gonna redevelop this photo to what I want now.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think uh that comes down into the the fine, fine art digital art style where you like to process your photos into a different style.
1:15:36
SPEAKER_02: That's 50-50.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you should you should you should release a collection of prints, the same image, like all of the versions of the processing as like a limited edition.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_02: I do.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_02: I could do like an Andy Warhol all on the way.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you like do like the same each process?
1:15:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, that would that would do my OCD in.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_01: Like it wouldn't be the same.
1:15:58
SPEAKER_01: Like you look at them, and I can tell you you can there's one I've seen they're going, it looked like a unicorn just shut over this piece of paper.
1:16:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, here's my photo, taste the rainbow.
1:16:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:16:11
SPEAKER_02: Skittles.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_02: If people love unicorns and skills, I'll pay a lot of money for it.
1:16:14
SPEAKER_02: So there's a there's a market.
1:16:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like you said, bro, like you can never, I think, I think photography is definitely the the most definitely the industry that you can least uh predict what the market is gonna want.
1:16:30
SPEAKER_02: Like any any kind of creative industry, it's like you never know what people have in their minds.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_02: Like you never know what really resonates with someone.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_02: And there's different elements that can that can resonate with someone, like whether it's an like a physical location, like a shot of a skillion.
1:16:46
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, I grew up in Terrible, I love that photo.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or it's like I love red.
1:16:51
SPEAKER_02: And so everything, every red photo I like, every red photo.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_01: But that you're 100% right there, because it used to change, it used to be a photograph of self if a person has a connection to that place.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:17:02
SPEAKER_01: And now it's what sits in my room because oh, there's that green.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_01: I like that green.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_01: I put that in there.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_01: I like the red, I like this, and and it's like it's not so much about the the subject, it's just the fact that the subject works for what they want.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_01: So I think people, I think people's minds to art has also opened up.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_01: I think what's another thing.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_00: I think another thing with art, particularly photography, because a style that I see that's very popular now is very much like the picture on the wall here.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: Where uh just describe what it is.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_00: Describe well, we have on the wall here, we have like a beach.
1:17:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of naked men is that is that something that's like.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_02: That's why you like it.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_02: You should stop looking at your phone.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not gonna choose which gender the people in the photo identifying as well.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: But it's it's like a teal cold water with sand and like a cliff, and there's a bunch of people on the back.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_00: That's that's in Greece, by the way.
1:17:58
SPEAKER_00: And what what what I think is when you look at this picture, it's the colours.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_00: If you were wet to go out in the middle of the day there, it would look those colours with our sunglasses on.
1:18:07
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_00: And I I think people have come to this real life, they want a realism photo of when what it looks like when they're there.
1:18:16
SPEAKER_00: Because how many times have you taken a long exposure at a sunset or a sunrise?
1:18:20
SPEAKER_00: And people go, it never looks like that.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: Because the water should.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_00: And I I've had I've had customers come and say, Oh, can you take a photo like this with a normal, normal shutter speed?
1:18:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you mean a normal shutter speed?
1:18:33
SPEAKER_00: But what I mean is they want to see the ripples in the water because that's what they're used to looking at.
1:18:37
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, they think that it's um, I think the general public doesn't think that it's Photoshop sometimes.
1:18:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can't say normal shutter speed, because to me normal's five minutes.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, but this is this is someone who's not a photographer.
1:18:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think uh and that comes for the sunrise and sunsets and the golden light, like as a photographer, you want that.
1:18:59
SPEAKER_00: You're like, you know, we've been trained uh uh over time, you know, influenced by other photographers that you know the light.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_00: Once you get that light, that you love it, right?
1:19:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then for the average person, if you look outside right now, that's what they see.
1:19:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's I think they like buying work because how often have you seen a piece of work that photographers might say, oh, that's anyone could take that.
1:19:22
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, but you didn't take it and you didn't put it up for sale, like this person has and sold it.
1:19:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like this person saw something in that you didn't see, yeah, and they've sold it.
1:19:32
SPEAKER_00: So you shouldn't knock them.
1:19:33
SPEAKER_00: Because also when they say picture perfect day, it's usually a day that has no clouds, right?
1:19:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and it's full sun, picture perfect day.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_01: You look outside, that is a picture perfect day.
1:19:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's no clouds, there's no golden hour, there's no there's no burning sunrise or sunset, there's no Milky Way, it's a clear blues day.
1:19:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:19:53
SPEAKER_01: It's photographers.
1:19:55
SPEAKER_00: It's the we all like the mood and and the heavy clouds and things like that.
1:19:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that whether you love and you because it adds drama and all these stuff.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_00: Of course, it makes the subject better.
1:20:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the average person doesn't even doesn't interest them.
1:20:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm actually stinging because this is my favorite condition at the moment is full sun, dramatic light, and 10 stop 15 in this time of weather.
1:20:19
SPEAKER_01: 15.
1:20:19
SPEAKER_01: Get out the 10 stop.
1:20:20
SPEAKER_01: So the I reckon a 15-stop Nissy filter would be buddy love and life right about now.
1:20:25
SPEAKER_01: I'd get about a four-minute exposure during the middle of the day, F11.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_01: Love and life.
1:20:29
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I didn't do that enough.
1:20:31
SPEAKER_02: The the the long exposure.
1:20:33
SPEAKER_02: I tried the day.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: I tried.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_00: Should come out and try it after this.
1:20:38
SPEAKER_01: I've got a couple of 15 stops that laid in the back.
1:20:40
SPEAKER_01: I'll be right.
1:20:41
SPEAKER_01: A couple of you ever tried a 30-stop?
1:20:43
SPEAKER_01: No, just stacked 215.
1:20:47
SPEAKER_01: Stacked 215s.
1:20:49
SPEAKER_01: I have legit stacked two tenths.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh, 20.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_01: I've tried to do that.
1:20:53
SPEAKER_01: 20 stop.
1:20:54
SPEAKER_01: What happened?
1:20:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh to expose for half an hour in the middle of the day.
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't half an hour.
1:21:04
SPEAKER_01: I think I think it was a full Sunday.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_01: I I think I did it down at Mystery.
1:21:08
SPEAKER_01: Remember, I had a period where I just get in the car and drive.
1:21:11
SPEAKER_01: I go, I'm gonna drive five, six hours today.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_01: And then one day I hit down Mystery Bay down the south coast.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_00: Um I remember being young and crazy like that.
1:21:20
SPEAKER_00: You're like, it's raining here, and you look at the weather and go, five hours away, it's not raining, I'm going there.
1:21:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:21:25
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I remember, I remember I I chucked, um, I had it was so bright and I stupid, I just forgot all my other filters, and all I had in my bag is I always had always carried a spare 10 stop in my bag because I'd always break them.
1:21:38
SPEAKER_01: So I put I threw on another 10 stop and I'm like, hmm, one minute's not enough.
1:21:45
SPEAKER_01: Two minutes wasn't enough.
1:21:46
SPEAKER_01: And then I got with the 10 stop, I was playing around with my F-stop and charter and all that sort of stuff.
1:21:52
SPEAKER_01: And I was gone, right.
1:21:54
SPEAKER_01: Got to about 10 minutes with during the middle of the day.
1:21:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes, but all right.
1:21:59
SPEAKER_01: Let's just chuck the 10 stop another 10 stop on then got to 20 and ended up shooting about 25 minutes.
1:22:05
SPEAKER_00: I go, wow, beautiful.
1:22:07
SPEAKER_00: It's funny it's like because I remember um before I actually, I think, met you in person, I knew about you.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_00: I saw you like hanging out with Glenn and with Andrew and stuff like that.
1:22:15
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was I was just sort of trying to get into photography and I was like, and you know, I see like one minute exposure.
1:22:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how the hell do you do a one-minute exposure?
1:22:24
SPEAKER_00: Like in that light.
1:22:25
SPEAKER_00: And then it was being I remember it was like a shot of yours from Yadalunga, like back in the day upon the colour.
1:22:32
SPEAKER_00: Yadalunga.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the old classic, you know, that big long jetty there.
1:22:35
SPEAKER_01: It's got oh yeah, it's got the next.
1:22:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's a classic, like central coast like central coast broadcast to it.
1:22:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, that that little entryway there.
1:22:46
SPEAKER_00: It's just a bit around Sarah.
1:22:48
SPEAKER_00: It's pretty cool.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_01: A lot of the a lot of the old jetties have been redone.
1:22:52
SPEAKER_01: I know.
1:22:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm so stoked.
1:22:53
SPEAKER_01: I've got to remember the old the classic um the jetty, the two jetties at Green Point.
1:22:58
SPEAKER_01: Greenpoint, yeah.
1:22:59
SPEAKER_01: The old timber one?
1:23:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not Timber Timber.
1:23:02
SPEAKER_01: The one that people used to go to was the one right at the boat ramp there.
1:23:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23:06
SPEAKER_01: If you actually went to the right and walked down past the old house down.
1:23:11
SPEAKER_01: So I've got a mad photo of that printed tin black and white where you like I fogged out the background and did all my thing to it.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_01: And it was actually falling down.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_01: And it and I remember it fell down on my and I had a little quiet cheer.
1:23:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no one else can get that.
1:23:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:23:26
SPEAKER_01: A little selfish me came out.
1:23:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_01: It was good there, too.
1:23:30
SPEAKER_01: I was up here a lot.
1:23:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so much so that I've looked at a moving here a few times.
1:23:35
SPEAKER_01: I remember okay, let's let's move.
1:23:37
SPEAKER_02: When you look when you it's funny when you look back on the record, you're moving.
1:23:40
SPEAKER_02: You look all right.
1:23:43
SPEAKER_02: So if he's starting his business tomorrow, he's going full-time within two weeks.
1:23:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you want to work for me or what?
1:23:48
SPEAKER_02: No.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_00: No, he's he's starting another business that's gonna make it a commission.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:23:55
SPEAKER_01: So the idea is I'll sit at home, not work, and Andrew will go work for me, and I'll take something.
1:24:00
SPEAKER_01: That's a great business.
1:24:02
SPEAKER_02: You gotta provide value, mate.
1:24:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, gotta provide, gotta provide value.
1:24:05
SPEAKER_02: I'll send you some nudes.
1:24:11
SPEAKER_00: No one can see, so I can say whatever whatever I want about it.
1:24:15
SPEAKER_00: He's starting up his own only dad's account.
1:24:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:24:18
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
1:24:20
SPEAKER_01: I think someone's gonna do it.
1:24:22
SPEAKER_01: I've got copyright only dad's saw for blokes and dad boxes.
1:24:25
SPEAKER_00: You just you just specialise sending ingrown toenails in your boat surface on man.
1:24:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just like look like thumb tan.
1:24:35
SPEAKER_00: You reckon there's a market for that?
1:24:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:24:39
SPEAKER_01: You know what 100% would be, but I bet there is a market for something that looks banky.
1:24:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:24:45
SPEAKER_01: And all that no, we're we're starting to lose the pot a little bit here.
1:24:48
SPEAKER_01: Before we go, what's next, what's next for you, mate?
1:24:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you what's what's your complaint?
1:24:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh apart from the the podcast business and and things like that, you got you know you're back in the shoe.
1:24:57
SPEAKER_02: I think it's all pretty, yeah.
1:24:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think one thing I've kind of come to, like, with all this, like I said before, like when you when you kind of find all of these different things and how they can come together to produce like one great thing.
1:25:12
SPEAKER_02: Um I think that the podcasting for me is massive, but I also like also tying in the photography and tying in the the video stuff that I'm doing.
1:25:22
SPEAKER_02: And I think I was always very uh I could come back to the word of of scared or fearful or hesitant to be doing different things because uh like that fear of confusing the market or or being seen as someone who is just doing a lot of different things.
1:25:40
SPEAKER_02: But now I kind of look at it and I'm like, you know what, it's actually great.
1:25:44
SPEAKER_02: It's like I I look at a lot of great people um who have built strong brands and and they really own all of the different aspects of their life that they enjoy.
1:25:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:25:54
SPEAKER_02: Um Joe Rogan as an example, like you kind of know who he is through the different things.
1:26:01
SPEAKER_02: Like he's he's super, super curious and loves diving into the the conspiracy, the psychedelics, all that's right.
1:26:08
SPEAKER_02: He's not a fair of his opinion.
1:26:09
SPEAKER_02: He's not afraid of his opinion, but he he owns, he owns what he loves, and and that shines through.
1:26:15
SPEAKER_02: And and like obviously the whole the martial arts side of things, the comedy.
1:26:19
SPEAKER_02: So he's got all these different facets, the health and fitness, and he's just like, and that works.
1:26:25
SPEAKER_02: And so now I just kind of go, look, I'm just gonna make I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna build an agency around podcasting.
1:26:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, but my personal brand is very much gonna be about the things that I love to do and um and I'm gonna lean into that more.
1:26:39
SPEAKER_02: And I I think not really have too much of a plan around it.
1:26:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like we were out this morning.
1:26:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I'm so keen to put a little video together because I'm like, that's fucking cool.
1:26:48
SPEAKER_02: Like that's look, that's not my that's not like something that I that I want to go and make money from or whatever, but it is, it's it's a it's a contributor to the entire brand that I want to build over time.
1:26:59
SPEAKER_02: And um, I think letting go of how things need to look as well.
1:27:02
SPEAKER_02: That's been a big challenge for me.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and just just leaning into um, like you said before, the the 18, 20 year old self that was just like, let's try this.
1:27:13
SPEAKER_02: Just get in, yeah.
1:27:14
SPEAKER_00: Just curiosity of just trying something new.
1:27:16
SPEAKER_02: Just curiosity.
1:27:17
SPEAKER_02: That's that's that's one thing I've always come back to over many, many years of of just going through life in general was you got a piss.
1:27:28
SPEAKER_02: All right, you get pissed, mate.
1:27:29
SPEAKER_02: Dean's gonna piss up.
1:27:30
SPEAKER_02: But looking at me discreet on it.
1:27:36
SPEAKER_02: He just dubbed him in so bad.
1:27:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, but but looking at um Yeah, I've always come back to the v that value curiosity.
1:27:46
SPEAKER_02: Curio curiosity and growth is two two words that I've always come back to, which is really interesting.
1:27:52
SPEAKER_02: So um we'll see.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_02: What what's next to you, eh?
1:27:58
SPEAKER_00: What's next to me?
1:28:01
SPEAKER_00: I like I have so many things on my mind all the time.
1:28:05
SPEAKER_00: I think trying to find my one direction is it's it's it's uh it's difficult to like slow myself down to one thing.
1:28:16
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:28:16
SPEAKER_00: Because I think it I I think uh I have like a really sort of fast-paced mind.
1:28:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily I probably need to take some of Glenn's advice and start writing my ideas down.
1:28:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, right?
1:28:28
SPEAKER_00: Because I'll come up with like a million ideas, yeah, but I don't necessarily write them all down.
1:28:32
SPEAKER_00: Oh mate.
1:28:33
SPEAKER_00: And I sh I I I put things, I think I work on the on brainwashing myself by talking about it.
1:28:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:28:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll talk about it with I I have this habit and I know it's a habit now because I I didn't know it was a habit until somebody pointed it out.
1:28:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:28:50
SPEAKER_00: Um and it it came under like a little bit of a personality tray where um I often share um sort of not fully matured thoughts.
1:29:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:29:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's in I think it's part of uh me trying to develop something into a fully fledged idea is by taking other people's opinions of my idea that's not fully developed yet to see take all the different input and see where that aligns with what I was thinking.
1:29:28
SPEAKER_00: And the idea behind that is that I can then calculate from this broad range of people what type of customer I'm looking for.
1:29:38
SPEAKER_00: Like what I what am I hoping to achieve with that idea?
1:29:41
SPEAKER_00: And I like I've come up with a billion ideas throughout my life that I thought would make me money.
1:29:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:29:47
SPEAKER_00: And I've tried heaps of them, yeah, and sometimes failed completely, like fell on my face.
1:29:53
SPEAKER_00: I started like an FBA business, like an Amazon FBA business years ago.
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, like um, I quit my job, I was like, all right, cool.
1:30:01
SPEAKER_00: I I built like um a full on at the same time, I was like, I was dealt with China, I was creating a brand new brand, I had it all done, you know.
1:30:11
SPEAKER_00: I got all my shipment, I was gonna sell in the US because they had a bigger market instead of Australia.
1:30:16
SPEAKER_00: We didn't really have the market for it.
1:30:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, plus there's a long way to ship.
1:30:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at the same time as that, I was building like an online photography learning program for like beginner photographers.
1:30:25
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, yeah, you know, if I sell a four-part program, I built that website at the same time.
1:30:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh I launched it, no idea how to do marketing.
1:30:34
SPEAKER_00: So I failed at that really bad.
1:30:36
SPEAKER_00: But then at the same at the same time, I was sort of like getting to the end where I was like, okay, I've invested all this money and time into this brand.
1:30:43
SPEAKER_00: So launched this product and then it got shipped.
1:30:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I arrived in America, I had it like remotely checked by a company, you know, they would like take it in, they do a spot check, and it was all defective, the whole lot, the entire shipment.
1:31:00
SPEAKER_00: I spent all my savings to get this huge shipment based on like, you know, if I get this and I hit Amazon, I sell it all, I'll make this like this much profit, and that will lead me then to be able to go into the second product, you know, and the entire lot was defective.
1:31:19
SPEAKER_00: And they wouldn't take it back.
1:31:21
SPEAKER_00: And then I went through I went through all the litigation and lost.
1:31:24
SPEAKER_00: Um I went through all the litigation and lost.
1:31:27
SPEAKER_00: So I literally lost all of the money.
1:31:29
SPEAKER_00: I was I was on nothing.
1:31:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was like, okay, I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to go back and get a job.
1:31:36
SPEAKER_00: I have to get a job again.
1:31:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:31:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh and that that was one of the ideas that I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do this and went for it.
1:31:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:31:43
SPEAKER_00: But failed miserably.
1:31:44
SPEAKER_00: But now you know.
1:31:45
SPEAKER_00: But now I know that I was like, okay, look at if you look back, look at all the frigging mistakes I made.
1:31:50
unknown: Yeah.
1:31:50
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, I didn't know I didn't mark it, I didn't do this.
1:31:52
SPEAKER_00: And what I think was the biggest mistake is I tried to do two things at once.
1:31:56
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:31:57
SPEAKER_01: But isn't it is that a mistake?
1:31:58
SPEAKER_01: How how many attempts did they did it take to make a light bulb?
1:32:02
SPEAKER_01: Until if you don't make one, you're not getting a second.
1:32:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you don't know.
1:32:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's a million ways now.
1:32:12
SPEAKER_01: Now you know there's a million ways not to do something.
1:32:16
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:32:17
SPEAKER_01: You need one way to do it, and you need a million ways not to.
1:32:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not now you know how.
1:32:20
SPEAKER_00: I think that's uh that comes down to you soak up those plans and then yeah.
1:32:25
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm starting to what I do now is I think it out for a much longer period before and then think about um the risk mitigation.
1:32:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:33
SPEAKER_00: As you know, like if I get it here and this happens, where am I gonna land?
1:32:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:38
SPEAKER_00: Or as opposed to like, I think you're taking the approach, but you've done a lot of background work and you're like, I don't know, you're gonna be successful.
1:32:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:44
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm also quite passive when it comes to um my financial situation.
1:32:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm not necessarily a big risk taker, especially from my previous experience where I took a, I was like, I'm gonna take a big risk.
1:32:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:56
SPEAKER_00: I did it.
1:32:57
SPEAKER_01: But there's two types of risk.
1:32:58
SPEAKER_01: There's there's risk and then there's calculated risk.
1:33:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:33:02
SPEAKER_01: Calculated risk is different.
1:33:03
SPEAKER_01: And that and then that's what that that's what Andrew's taking is to it, right?
1:33:06
SPEAKER_01: It's a calculated risk to a degree.
1:33:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and he knows that he can make it work.
1:33:11
SPEAKER_01: Is it risky?
1:33:12
SPEAKER_01: Everything we do is risky.
1:33:14
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it's it's either it's an uneducated risk, which nine times out of ten you're gonna fail.
1:33:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:33:20
SPEAKER_01: It's uneducated, you're jumping in blind.
1:33:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:33:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, and then you got you got calculated risk where it's it could be 50-50, it could be 60-foot, it could be whatever.
1:33:29
SPEAKER_01: But but the knowledge is what's gonna get you through and keep pushing and notice those risks and notice those issues when they pop up to change.
1:33:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:33:36
SPEAKER_01: And that goes for that goes for art as well.
1:33:38
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not gonna sit here and say, Oh, I I I could risk missing a good shot with white, but it's calculated risk because you know what you're doing.
1:33:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:33:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like someone coming in for the first time and slapping a 15-stop on a filter on a camera and just hoping that they go and get the shot.
1:33:55
SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna work that way.
1:33:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not that easy.
1:33:57
SPEAKER_01: It's the same, the same way you shoot your um your landscape car and the way you do your video.
1:34:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and even with when you were shooting um underwater work like with your thing.
1:34:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's a calculated risk getting into the ocean to take a photo.
1:34:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:34:10
SPEAKER_01: But if you put yourself in the right position, the risk, the risk and reward becomes closer.
1:34:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:34:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:34:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I mean, you never know what you're gonna get.
1:34:18
SPEAKER_02: No.
1:34:18
SPEAKER_02: So especially you look like you go out in the morning, like who's to say there's not gonna be one cloud in the sky or whatever.
1:34:25
SPEAKER_02: Like you're always you're always gonna get something different to what you thought across anything because no one knows what's gonna happen.
1:34:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's like that, that's important.
1:34:35
SPEAKER_02: It's like you don't know that's gonna happen.
1:34:37
SPEAKER_02: And then if you put that into perspective of like, well, do I enjoy what I'm doing?
1:34:43
SPEAKER_02: And if I don't, well, then why am I still there?
1:34:46
SPEAKER_02: And what's the worst thing that's gonna happen if I decide to change?
1:34:50
SPEAKER_02: Um what's what's the worst?
1:34:53
SPEAKER_02: There was someone something someone said, um, I think I showed on a podcast, and it was like, they were like, look at where you are now and is it where you want to be?
1:35:04
SPEAKER_02: And if it's not, well, where do you want to be?
1:35:07
SPEAKER_02: And if you uh take if you take a risk into moving into where you want to go, and that's your plan A, and coming, coming back would be your plan B.
1:35:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen?
1:35:21
SPEAKER_02: You come back to your old position.
1:35:23
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, so by not taking that risk, it's like, how does it feel to live in your plan B?
1:35:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:35:30
SPEAKER_02: How does it feel not even trying?
1:35:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:35:33
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's so important.
1:35:34
SPEAKER_02: It's like where you are now, you can just come back to it.
1:35:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:35:38
SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of the times.
1:35:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:35:39
SPEAKER_02: A lot of the times.
1:35:40
SPEAKER_02: You can just come back to it.
1:35:41
SPEAKER_02: So it's like, why the fuck wouldn't you try?
1:35:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:35:43
SPEAKER_02: Like that's just that's just silly.
1:35:44
SPEAKER_01: Like if you like Chase, Chase Jovis, he he has a quote, very similar.
1:35:49
SPEAKER_01: It's the best thing uh that I've ever heard uh in regards to that.
1:35:52
SPEAKER_01: Is that the difference between where you are now and where you want to be is is closer than you know.
1:35:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:35:59
SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
1:36:00
SPEAKER_01: And and it's and and and that's something that I've thought gone, you know what, he's spot on.
1:36:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, all it is is you post a photo or a video or a piece of art, that's that's one step closer.
1:36:11
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter how big the step is, but it's the direction that you take that step.
1:36:16
SPEAKER_00: I think to answer Andrew's question from earlier, where you said, What am I doing next?
1:36:20
SPEAKER_00: I guess what I am doing next is I'm my goal is to try and get my work in as many places as possible.
1:36:26
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
1:36:26
SPEAKER_00: I recently, so recently from the podcast, I I landed like a residency in this hated restaurant in Wollung called Baby Face Kitchen.
1:36:34
SPEAKER_00: And they're the really cool place, you know.
1:36:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's just that came from this podcast.
1:36:40
SPEAKER_00: So I think Dean and I, with a brand awareness, like we said, we want to build our brand and we're we're building it together because we've been friends and talk about for a long period.
1:36:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then this podcast is bringing us these opportunities because we're reaching out.
1:36:56
SPEAKER_00: So we build this brand awareness.
1:36:58
SPEAKER_00: You start putting your product in more places because if like I think um oh what's the guy from Dingo Jordan?
1:37:09
SPEAKER_00: Um Jordan from Vincentia area, that area.
1:37:14
SPEAKER_00: He shoots all the underwater stuff at the time.
1:37:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Jordan Robbins.
1:37:17
SPEAKER_00: Jordan Robbins, yeah.
1:37:18
SPEAKER_00: He came up, right?
1:37:19
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, look at Jordan Robbins, look at his product placement, and everywhere you go, all the gift stores, there's Jordan Robbins' all of them.
1:37:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:37:27
SPEAKER_00: And I see his work constantly on the South Coast.
1:37:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, this is brand placement.
1:37:32
SPEAKER_00: And he's built a name for himself by doing that and putting himself out there.
1:37:37
SPEAKER_00: And I think for a long time, I was like, I have to, I was like aiming at like a gallery, like a soul gallery, without doing these little pieces.
1:37:44
SPEAKER_00: So there's no, if you haven't stepping stones, having built the brand awareness with these little tiny, you know, breadcrumbs along the way, you can't launch into there where that is.
1:37:55
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm finally starting to get the point where I have to try and keep putting my stuff in front of people.
1:38:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think a little bit of like that self-consciousness is where you go, oh, this didn't sell.
1:38:06
SPEAKER_00: This is a crap photo.
1:38:08
SPEAKER_00: I've thought so many times myself, well, I'm just gonna chuck all my photos out, like thousands of dollars of prints and chucking them out because no one's buying them.
1:38:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like it was you just had to put it in front of the right buyer.
1:38:18
SPEAKER_00: So I'm probably glad I didn't take a knee-jerk reaction and chuck them out, right?
1:38:23
SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like these are going.
1:38:24
SPEAKER_00: And Dean's like, please don't throw your pictures out.
1:38:28
SPEAKER_00: And so I think for me, the next thing is, yeah, I'm just gonna keep trying to build my brand and and chug away.
1:38:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:38:34
SPEAKER_01: And and and not just that is that the podcast, yes, we are trying to, like, full disclosure, we are trying to build our brand, like everybody is.
1:38:40
SPEAKER_01: But we're also trying to pump up everyone else with us.
1:38:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we want to pump everyone's type.
1:38:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, I love I love seeing other people's work.
1:38:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, just because I don't, that's not the style I shoot.
1:38:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, like I remember seeing like Andrew's work from back in the day, like how vibrant and poppy his work was.
1:38:57
SPEAKER_01: Just because I don't do it doesn't mean I don't like it.
1:38:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's saying you don't like my work.
1:39:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's terrible.
1:39:02
SPEAKER_01: It's don't look at Andrew's work.
1:39:06
SPEAKER_00: That was a we're gonna pump everyone's tones.
1:39:07
SPEAKER_00: Your work's freaking terrible.
1:39:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, except for Andrew's, we're gonna display them.
1:39:12
SPEAKER_00: That took a bad turn.
1:39:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying, just because I don't shoot it doesn't mean I don't like yeah, yeah.
1:39:18
SPEAKER_01: I used to love Andrew's work, I think it was great.
1:39:20
SPEAKER_01: And and um, Jesus, look at that bright and vibrant, how good.
1:39:26
SPEAKER_00: I remember living down in Sydney and thinking I think it was I forget, I think it might have been Pearl Beach or something.
1:39:30
SPEAKER_00: You had like um you got this sunset shot down there with like a rainbow.
1:39:36
SPEAKER_00: I think it was I think it was down at Pearl Beach.
1:39:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh was there a rock in the middle?
1:39:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like a rocket with a beard, yeah, like a full rainbow.
1:39:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it was caves, yeah.
1:39:44
SPEAKER_00: It was caves, yeah.
1:39:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember looking and I was like, man, it's be so good to live on the coast.
1:39:49
SPEAKER_00: And you should be like, I was living out like in western Sydney, then I was like, man, this guy can just pop down there.
1:39:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like and I was thinking already like he's working full time as a photographer, you know.
1:39:59
SPEAKER_00: You can he can he's got a lot of caveats, and you could show look at that rainbow, it's freaking mid black.
1:40:06
SPEAKER_00: It was a good job.
1:40:06
SPEAKER_00: You could taste it, couldn't you?
1:40:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the rainbow taste.
1:40:10
SPEAKER_00: I was like, there's a packing of Skittles in that shot.
1:40:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then your shots like you used to do where you sit in the cave and you'd be like almost look like you're meditating, and it'd be just this full belter of a sunrise as well.
1:40:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's that sits right in my that lives right through my head.
1:40:25
SPEAKER_01: That shot.
1:40:26
SPEAKER_01: Good.
1:40:27
SPEAKER_01: Let's say that.
1:40:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no, I don't like work enough for it to stay any longer.
1:40:32
SPEAKER_01: All right, lads.
1:40:33
SPEAKER_01: It's been good.
1:40:34
SPEAKER_01: What are we at?
1:40:35
SPEAKER_01: Time uh we're about an hour and 40 in.
1:40:37
SPEAKER_01: So you'll be you're our longest episode.
1:40:40
SPEAKER_01: That's we didn't we didn't talk about it.
1:40:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'll take you you will take it.
1:40:45
SPEAKER_01: We had a good crack.
1:40:47
SPEAKER_01: But when you one thing I want to know, when are you gonna get back behind the camera shooting stills?
1:40:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, it was there fucking two hours ago.
1:40:53
SPEAKER_02: No, you'll shoot the not stills.
1:40:55
SPEAKER_02: Two hours a couple of stills.
1:40:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no.
1:40:58
SPEAKER_02: Look, I I if I go out, if I go out and shoot sunrise, I'll always shoot both.
1:41:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:41:03
SPEAKER_02: Like I'll always, I'll always shoot both.
1:41:05
SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, enough to enough to kind of, yeah, get what I want.
1:41:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you never know what's gonna happen, but I like I don't know.
1:41:14
SPEAKER_02: I like I love both.
1:41:15
SPEAKER_02: And you can never say never.
1:41:17
SPEAKER_02: That's why that's why that's why I shoot on the on the cannons because they are so diverse in in what you can do with it.
1:41:23
SPEAKER_02: Um they've got their they've got their uh weaknesses, but overall, I think they're a great camera.
1:41:29
SPEAKER_02: And um, so yeah, I just look, I've got plenty there.
1:41:33
SPEAKER_02: I've got plenty of shots there.
1:41:35
SPEAKER_02: I've just got to publish them.
1:41:36
SPEAKER_02: Um I have been, I've just been a lot quieter um with what I'm doing because of work, because of the work that I've been in.
1:41:45
SPEAKER_02: And and not that I'm using that as an excuse, but I actually used it as my own, um, what would you call it?
1:41:52
SPEAKER_02: Like, um it was it was for myself to make sure that I wasn't getting distracted.
1:41:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:41:58
SPEAKER_02: Because I knew that my time at work was finite.
1:42:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm now and now moving into a position where I can now go out and do my thing.
1:42:06
SPEAKER_02: I've been waiting just so that I'm not distracted and so I can put my time into that.
1:42:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, because I know that when my mind does start to wander, I mentally tap out of the thing that I'm currently doing because all I want to do is that next time, yeah, yeah.
1:42:21
SPEAKER_02: And so it was kind of a bit of a self-disciplinary thing where I was like, look, I'm just gonna wait.
1:42:25
SPEAKER_02: But it's good because now I've got a whole bunch there that I'll I'll be able to push out.
1:42:29
SPEAKER_02: I see.
1:42:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
1:42:30
SPEAKER_02: So look, to answer your question, fucking very soon.
1:42:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good.
1:42:35
SPEAKER_01: Very soon.
1:42:35
SPEAKER_01: And on that though, mate, thank you for coming out for joining us for a shoot, coming to the pub last night and um having a chat with us.
1:42:42
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for allowing us to step into Terragal.
1:42:45
SPEAKER_01: If I'm gonna ask anyone now, yeah.
1:42:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I won't be asking Andrew for permission, he doesn't know either.
1:42:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all right.
1:42:55
SPEAKER_01: Thanks again, mate, and um, thanks everyone for listening, and we'll catch you on our next episode.