Latest / Share Your Fire / Share Your Fire, Ep. 2-4: Being Valued (Ralph Kellogg)
Transcript
- John: Each of us has a torch, a passion burning inside that ignites our motivation. When it's fed, the fire spreads and helps those around us keep their own torches shining bright. Our combined light can keep any monster at bay. We bring together people from around the world, sparks of light and glowing embers with enlightening stories of kindness, success, and overcoming adversity, fanning the flames of love, compassion, and positivity. Sharing their light to help those struggling in darkness. I'm John Verrico and this is Share Your Fire. John Verrico: And we're back on the air, and you're going to love this episode of Share Your Fire. I am so delighted for my guest today because his heart is in the same place mine is. You know, so many of us work in all sorts of of environments, and people seem to forget that more than just workers, we are all humans. We're all people, and we have to work. Together to accomplish whatever it is that we're doing. So my guest today, Ralph Kellogg, is an HR expert, right? He's the human resources guy. He's the guy that people either love or hate in any organization. But he has found a way and saw the importance of humanizing the organization. He is the author of Leading While Human Notes I Wish Someone Had Given Me. Let me bring in my guest, Ralph Kellogg. Ralph, how are you, sir? Ralph Kellogg: Hey John, I'm great. How are you? John Verrico: I'm doing terrific. Ralph Kellogg: Good. Good. Good to be here. John Verrico: Well, I'm glad to have you here because you know, your your heart is in the same place as mine is in trying to understand the human element that needs to happen in the workplace. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: And so first of all, I I wanted get a little bit of background, like how did you wind up in the h human resources field and and then where did you see these inconsistencies or these these areas that really needed to be improved. Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, I I always like to say I wound up in human resources because I looked up at the wrong time and got selected for the role. I drew the short end of the stick or whatever. Yeah, yeah. John Verrico: You know Yeah, I I love it. That happens to so many people. There's a great book out. it's it's it's a few years old, many years old now, I guess. It's called The Accidental Salesman. It's like nobody ever plans to go into sales and it th kids don't go, I want to be a salesman when I grow up. You know, people are going, I want to be an HR when I go up. You know these Ralph Kellogg: I've never heard I can't say I want to be an HR when I grew up. If I if I did, I would say, let's get let's get him in some some therapy or something. Let's let's not do that. Yeah, yeah. No, I I I wound up in HR sort of a sort of a very convoluted way. I had done a lot of different roles, didn't really know sort of where I fit in terms of career path, but I spent my the early part of my life managing people, coaching people. and did other things like you know working in IT, being an analyst, working in project management, and it always came back to the connection the and the relationships with people and there was an opportunity I to to your point of being in sales, I was working in in a financial institution and I was leading sales teams and the opportunity to move into HR was presented to me and I thought, well If not now, when and I I dove in and became a quick study at it and got the credentials to go along with it. And that's how I wound up it w wound up in HR too. There there should be a book called The Accidental HR Professional, because it it truly was not, it was i I I thought this would be fun to do, but it was never I never had a plan of how to get there. And so I just sort of fell into it and I'm certainly glad I did. It's been it's been a great career and And I've learned so much from from being in the profession. So yeah. John Verrico: So there's a lot of misunderstanding about what the role of human resources professionals are. And I know it it Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. John Verrico: encompasses kind of a broad spectrum of of things. So what are what is some of what is it like a typical HR day? Of course there's no such thing, right? But what what what kinds of things do you wind up doing like in your particular profession? Ralph Kellogg: So I think it really depends on the role that you have in HR. so i if you are working in the in a entry level role or or new to the curr or new to the HR career field, you're going to probably find yourself d you know doing a lot of learning. so it may be employee relations, it may be compliance, it may be benefits, things along those lines. as you advance, I think or at least in my situation when I found is I'm dealing with the same types of issues. I'm only except the variable that's changed is the I'm dealing it, I'm dealing it, dealing doing it, excuse me, with leaders and not with frontline staff workers. The problems don't change. it's the people that that John Verrico: yes. Ralph Kellogg: change. So you're dealing with very accomplished, achievement oriented individuals who have the same once needs and desires as the entry-level employee. but the but the stage is bigger that they're operating on. And because the stage is bigger it can sometimes make make problems or make issues that weren't necessarily meant to be you know magnified in scope it can make them seem bigger than they are and it can you know lead to a whole host of issues so yeah John Verrico: So I know in the the the across my career field and primarily worked in in government and nonprofit areas, but I I know that it's pretty much the same in in the corporate world. But the HR folks, I mean they they work on the the hiring and the fining firing and the screening and the grievances and the complaints Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: and and all of that stuff. And that can be pretty grueling at times, especially Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: when like you don't want to allow them to hire the person that they want to hire because there's reasons why they shouldn't, or vice versa. yeah. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: Those kinds of things get get really frustrating. But the grievance process, I think, is probably one of the most grueling of of of all of the functions, I think, when there's a complaint about somebody mistreating somebody, those kinds Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: of things. And That's where I think the the understanding of humanity really, really comes to play, although I it's across the spectrum. But I'll let you describe Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: that a little more better than I can. Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, I would say the grievance process the which ties into disciplinary processes and even the termination process. so when you think about and I and I always marvel at this thought when people say, Well, I don't want you to take what I'm gonna say personally, and then they walk into, but I'm gonna I'm gonna give you disciplinary action or I'm gonna terminate you, or you know, you're discussing a grievance. It's very hard if you care about. work that you do and you care about, you know, maintaining a sense of self, not to take whatever's being said to you personally. And so, you know, I find I found that even in some of the darkest conversations I've had with people where it's been you know centered on disciplinary actions or grievances or terminations, you can bring humanity into those situations. You know, you can let them know, hey, I know this is difficult for you to hear. You know, I imagine this is something, you know, that you didn't get out of bed today and plan to talk about, but let's walk through this together and let's, you know, see, you know, how we can, you know, piece whatever we can together in terms of a solution and try to move forward. I think a lot of it goes to tone of voice. I think a lot of it goes to those things that we were all taught when we were coming up in our careers about eye contact, about you know, making sure that you're being compassionate and open and honest and transparent. and then at the end of the day, to your point at the beginning of the conversation, that the individual sitting across from you is a person. They have hopes, they have dreams, they have fears, they have, you know, all sorts of things that they, you know, are walking into the workplace with. And so to just look at them as a number or as an employee really does a lot of disservice to the to that kind of process that you're that you're going through with them. Yeah. John Verrico: You know, a and it's not just in the HR field where you deal with this. It's just in everyday life. You know, Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: the person across from you in any situation is a fellow human and you don't know what's going on in their life. You know, every Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. John Verrico: we have we have things going on in our life that that are good that we wanna we wanna celebrate and then we have things Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: that are th that are not so good that we we Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: would like to change or or you know, we you don't know What's going on in somebody's life. And there's Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: a an ancient proverb. Somebody told me it was Chinese in in in its background. I'm not 100% sure, but and I've never actually found the exact words. But pretty much the premise is that if you live long enough, everything will happen to you. Which Ralph Kellogg: Mm. John Verrico: means that at some point in your life you'll be doing well, maybe not so well. You'll be healthy, you'll be sick, you'll have food, you'll Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: be hungry, you'll And so you just don't know, you know, what somebody is going through in that particular chapter of their life. In one chapter Ralph Kellogg: Right. John Verrico: of our lives, we could be the hero of the story. In another chapter of our life, we could be the victim in the story. And in yet Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: another chapter, whether we realize it or not, intentionally or not, we could be the villain in somebody else's story. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I I often tell people, and I and I I talk about this in the book, that when you are the the messenger, so to speak, and so if the company is doing a reduction in force, or if you are the person called upon to terminate someone or provide disciplinary action or fill in whatever terror, you know, the blank with whatever terrible thing you can think of, you become the character. Potentially in someone one of someone's you know worst days ever. You become the villain, whether you are simply delivering the message or not, because John Verrico: Right. Ralph Kellogg: you are you are the messenger. And that can be very difficult to live with. that can be very difficult to carry. because no one that I know intentionally wants to you know impact someone's life negatively unless you know there there's something going on with you that you enjoy. John Verrico: Ha ha Ralph Kellogg: doing that. That's a different John Verrico: ha. Ralph Kellogg: that's a different podcast and topic altogether, but yeah. John Verrico: Intentionally evil people. Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, next week. but it can it can be really heavy to walk around with and then I think too bumping into them, you know, after you, you know, in public, after you are no longer working with them and that that weird feeling that you get of, you know, I hope they know that you know, to talk about what we did earlier, I hope you know that this wasn't personal. Well to them it's very personal. It you don't you know, again, because you don't know what's going on with them outside. it's very personal to them and you wind up being that that villain in that chapter of their of their story and that's that can be a lot to carry. John Verrico: It it truly, it truly is. And one thing that I can say is you your your book brings this out too. When you talk about leading well humans, so many times people think about the especially people in leadership positions, they think about the soft skills. The Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: which and I which is the worst terminology, by the way, Ralph Kellogg: Yep. John Verrico: because they're not soft. If anything, they're Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: the hardest skills that you have and they have the most impact. but they always look at the the the human interaction skills, the communication skills, the showing compassion, the showing emotion, emotional intelligence, servant leadership, all of these things, they look kind of down their nose at him. They make me look like I'm weak. And Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: they're afraid that they won't be respected as a leader. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: And your book kind of points out the fact that no, no, no, no, it's the humanity element that makes you a true leader. So Let's talk a little bit about Ralph Kellogg: Absolutely. John Verrico: kind of this gap that exists and and how you were able to spot it and and what you pointed out in the book. Ralph Kellogg: Well, I think that's a that's a great point. I I have also heard those soft skills referred to as the woo-woo. You know, I I don't people John Verrico: Yes. Ralph Kellogg: say, don't talk to me about the woo-woo stuff. and the warm, fuzzy, John Verrico: The warm fuzzy. Ralph Kellogg: that that's another one of my personal favorites, yes. John Verrico: Ha ha ha. Ralph Kellogg: you know, I I I looked at a lot of the leaders that I reported to, interacted with for a long time. And What I found from them is that they weren't necessarily They weren't necessarily bad people. None of them were bad people. But what they didn't want to do is invest the time, energy, or or the work involved with developing relationships. It sort of seemed to me that once they reached the career or the position that they were looking for, that they just expected all the things to fall in place like we see in movies. So people immediately respect me and they'll go to the ends of the earth for me and they'll work late and come in early, that doesn't happen. It happens because, or when it does happen, it happens because you formed a relationship with people, because they know you as a person. And so a lot of the things that I point out in my book is that people don't expect leaders to be perfect. They just expect them to be present and they expect them to be real. And a lot of times where the the depth of the relationship comes from is when the leader says, I don't know, I messed up. This wasn't my finest hour, or hey, you know what? I was I was out of line for talking to you the way that I did yesterday in the meeting. Let's talk a little bit more because I don't want this to interfere with our with our you know working relationship. many times leaders I think don't do that. not because and there may be an element of of they don't want to appear weak, but I also think there's an element that if they do that, In some manner, shape, or form, somehow investing in the relationship is going to be more detrimental in the end. Because if I'm close to you, or if I know you beyond the person who sits outside my office in the cube and I have a relationship with you, that's going to make leading you potentially more challenging because now you're going to bring everything in, and now I'm going to have to, you know, walk through paths with you and all of these things. It's not just simply me directly. directing you or delegating something to you. It's really knowing you as a human. And I know that when I've talked to leaders about this, they're they you know, they'll say, well, you know, this person works for me. That's what they should do. That's what they hired on to do and things along those lines. And and John Verrico: Right. Right. They should be my friend. Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: Right, right. it just doesn't work that way. And I believe wholeheartedly that nothing is as strong as the relationship it's built upon. So if you're not gonna take the time and effort and energy to build a relationship with someone, you know, you're going to get the result of, you know, not having the the you know, the effective leadership that you might help to have when working with others. John Verrico: Yeah, well you know, that relationship is founded in in trust and and mutual respect and open, honest communication. So I don't care Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: if you're you know, if you're a jerk, as long as you're consistently, you know, consistently so and you're a jerk to that Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: person as much as being a jerk to me. So Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: there there's all those kinds of things about you know, really understanding that the relationships are You don't have to be buddies. You don't have to go to each other's, you know, children's weddings. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: But you should have enough professional respect and and realize that the other person, like I said, is a human. They bring specific Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: skills to the table. They should have the opportunity to show you what they can do. You know, I Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: I hate the whole micromanagement thing Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: that you'll see in some workplaces. And and I think that you're you're pointing out some really, really good good elements here and what people need to understand in working in Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: these situations. I know that I've worked for people who were, you know, authoritative and directive in their s in their leadership style. And that was fine. You Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: know, whatever. But I also worked for people who were, you know, more, I don't know, friendly. You know, Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: like we we would go out to lunch every once in a while and stuff. I worked harder and wanted to do more for the person who made me feel like I was appreciated. We didn't have to be friends, Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: but just made me feel like I was appreciated for what I brought to the table and understood that I was a fellow human, whether or Ralph Kellogg: Okay. John Verrico: not, no matter where on the pay chain we were, the pay scale Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: we were, you know, that you if we were in the elevator together, you said hello, you know, or acknowledged it when I said hello. what whatever Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. John Verrico: it was, you know, just those little tiny things that just Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: show that you recognize that other individual as existing. Ralph Kellogg: Well, and I think you bring up a great point because I think like all relationships, it is the small things that add up over time. It's not the one big event where you know a leader shows that they care about you or or you have a falling out with a leader and say, I'm gonna go look for something else. It's the incremental things that occur. You know, the the lack of psychological safety, and that's a big turn. Right now John Verrico: Ooh, it's huge. Ralph Kellogg: in the business community and in HR? Then I always say psychological safety doesn't really apply to you leave the conversation because people then are going to look at how have things changed? You know, it was fine when I was in a room with you, but what's changed in the environment once I leave? do I still have the opportunity to chat with you? Are you still engaging with me? have opportunities disappeared? do people, you know, go quiet when I walk. In a room, what are the behaviors that I'm now noticing after I've disclosed something to you? And the other thing that I would say too is that you know, when leaders miss out on the opportunity to build relationships in those small incremental ways, and it they don't have to be monumental. but if you are going out for a coffee, asking somebody, hey, do you want a coffee? If someone is calling in saying, 'Hey, listen,' you know, my kid kept me up all night because they Have you know a cold or the flu, may I work from home today instead of you know going into the office and you make an exception for them because you know that they've got lots of they've got life going on. All of those things I help, I believe, help build a bank of goodwill between people and they help build trust because you're going to look at that person and say, you know, I can go to them. They may not like what I'm going to tell them, but they'll listen to me, and I know that. I can work on a solution with them rather than I can't tell them because I'm I'm you know I'm just a number. I'm just someone who occupies a desk. And so many times I think people think, you know, if I do this one big thing, if I give you a bonus, you're immediately going to, you know, have all this love and respect and loyalty for me. And a bonus is nice. John Verrico: I'm glad you brought that one up. Yeah, we'll talk about it's not about the money. Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, but it's but it's the small stuff. It's not about the money. And you know, I people will come to me and say, you know, so and so's gonna quit if we don't give them ten thousand dollars more a year, and I'll say to them, We can give them ten thousand dollars more today and in six months they're gonna quit again because they're not happy here for whatever reason. And money is only going to pacify them in the moment. It's not going to fix whatever's wrong. And so many people forget that. and they think, Well, I'll them more money and that'll fix it and it doesn't. It d it's not John Verrico: Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: the answer. John Verrico: No, it's not. And you know, there have been study after study about why people leave companies and it has nothing to do. Very rarely do people leave because they're going to make more money someplace else. That's Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: a it's an element. It is something that is considered absolutely. People don't leave and Ralph Kellogg: Yes. John Verrico: go to a lower paying job unless it's something really, you know, life-changing and dramatically different work or something. But people Ralph Kellogg: Right. Right. John Verrico: leave. business people leave because of their relationship with the other people. People Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: don't yeah, they don't they don't leave businesses. They leave people. They leave the manager. You know it's the climate, Ralph Kellogg: Right. Right. John Verrico: the environment that they're working in that Ralph Kellogg: Mm. John Verrico: either provides them the opportunity to be motivated, because you can't motivate somebody else. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: You know, you you you don't you can't motivate your employees. But Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: you provide you create an environment where they Will they will be motivated from their own motivation? So you give them all those things that that they need, that psychological safety, that Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: feeling of belonging, the feeling that they're making a difference, recognition for what they do. That recognition does not have to be pay raises and promotions, especially when it doesn't exist. I mean, they could be at the, you know, hey, this this is what the position is. It doesn't go any higher. This is what I can Ralph Kellogg: Great. Great. John Verrico: afford to pay you. I can't afford to pay you more. But I could Ralph Kellogg: Right. John Verrico: say thank you. Ralph Kellogg: Right. Right. John Verrico: You know, I could I could and some people don't want public recognition, but you know, some for some for those that do, and you you learn this about the people that work with you, right? Who Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: wants to say wants to be pointed out in the staff meeting and go, Hey, you know, Joey did a great job today, didn't she? You know? Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: Or hey, I wanted to point out this individual who, you know, helped to increase sales, or whatever it was that that it is. And then other people would like something a little quieter, you know, maybe just Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: a stop by, drop a coffee on their desk, whatever it is. But if you don't know them, then you're Ralph Kellogg: Exactly. John Verrico: gonna call out the wrong person, the introvert, or you're going to, you know, completely ignore or do something quiet for somebody who really thrives on the public recognition. So all of those things Ralph Kellogg: Absolutely. John Verrico: are things that you need to know about your people. And Ralph Kellogg: Right. John Verrico: I don't understand why I never understood why, why people in leadership positions don't take the time or the energy to know their people because if you know your people you also know how to get the best out of Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. I I I would say because it takes a lot of work. Investing in relationships either inside the organization or outside take a lot of work. John Verrico: Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: and and you have to be willing to put the time, the effort, and the energy into fostering your relationship with someone. and I feel like, you know, we spend two-thirds of our life doing work in some manner, shape, or form. that's 66% of your life. You're gonna be involved in. some sort of career pursuit. I think it would be incredibly lonely and incredibly isolating to not invest in relationships. And to your point earlier, it doesn't mean that we're best friends and it doesn't mean that I hang out with you after work or any of those kinds of things. But it does mean when we're in work, we can create a community. We can create a an organization based on reciprocity and and you know and helping and trusting each other and working with each other. Other because at the end of the day, if you're in a work environment, you're all you know moving toward, or at least you should be toward the same goal. So how do we help each other get there? Because if you're successful and you're doing well in your side of the house, then I'll be successful on my side of the house. It doesn't need to be this you know sort of American gladiators thing that goes on, you know, in the in the John Verrico: Mm-hmm. Ralph Kellogg: workplace and survival of the fittest. And I know that makes for great movies and great television, but that's how you lose great people when you create environments like that. John Verrico: Yeah, yeah. And well, you know, what does it take to re when you've got a a good employee and they leave, Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: what does it take you to replace that person? Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. You know, usually John Verrico: Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: it's half of their it's half of the old employee's salary by the time that you you know, hire, recruit, bring in, train and and get them up to speed to where they need to be, that's a huge investment. John Verrico: Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: and I don't know any organization that can afford to do that for the long term. It just and it's it's sort of you know, what did Einstein say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get the different a different result? Yeah. John Verrico: Expecting a different result. Yes. Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, and so you know at some point you need to stand back and look and say, this is not working. Whatever it is that we're doing is not working, and we need to figure out a new playbook. And so if being you know a really direct, authoritarian authoritarian type of manager is costing you great people, maybe you need to figure out how to redefine, represent, reapproach our the the the situation and learn how to connect better with people. John Verrico: That is that is so perfect. when you when you look at that. One of the things that I wanted to I can't believe how quickly time is going. one of the things that I did want to talk about is this understanding that your value in an organization and or and understanding how to make people feel like they are valued. you wrote a It in in your book you wrote this one of your chapters is caught I is called I Thought Being Needed Was the Same As Being Valuable. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: And it sounds like you had the same problem that I did throughout Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: coming through coming up in my career is I kept volunteering for stuff and and taking on more and more because I thought that would make me needed. Right. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: And they would have to you know, it'd be harder and harder to replace me. But Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: I can be replaced really, really quickly, realized afterwards. So so what is the difference between being needed and being valuable? Ralph Kellogg: That was a hu yeah, that that chapter was a huge life lesson for me. And so I, you know, I share in the book that I have struggled with my mental health and that I have panic and and anxiety disorders. And so one of the ways that I would sort of quell the the the the the hum of the anxiety was to you know be needed. If I was needed, if I volunteered for things, showed up early, stayed late, took on the assignments, no one wanted. wanted, then people would see that I was valued, that I belonged, that I had a place in the organization. What I found was that being needed meant that I just made myself available, that I was available to do things that people may not want to do, that I was sort of the default for all of the things John Verrico: Yep. Ralph Kellogg: that That you could delegate out. And that's not bringing value. That's just someone who is being used as a workhorse. and that's not that's not valued. And so it took me a long time to understand that being needed also eroded a lot of my self-respect and my self-worth. because when you are constantly on call. And you are doing the work and you're always showing up and you're giving 100%. at some point, people expect you to do that. They no longer John Verrico: Yes. Ralph Kellogg: see you and appreciate you. They just say, well, he'll do it.' It's like that that old life commercial back in the day when they said, give it to Mikey, he'll eat it.' you know, the cereal. Yeah, that's what that's what it's like. John Verrico: Yes. Yeah. Mike you'll do anything. Yes. Mike will try anything. Yeah. Ralph Kellogg: That's absolutely what it's like. And what baffled me is there were people. People in the organizations that would just flat out say, no, I'm not gonna do that. Yet they were respected. They were valued, their opinions matter. They were invited into the rooms where decisions were made. And what I was relegated to was yeah, he'll figure out a way to get that done. Or just give it to him, it'll be done. No worries. It'll, you know, all of those things. And it it erodes part of who you are over time because after a while, you're you're viewed like furniture. You're dependable, you'll get it done, but you're furniture, you're no longer valued for the intellect, the insight that. curiosity, the the decision making ability that you have and it's a very isolating place to be because our world tells us if I work hard, if I do these things, I'm gonna be valued and people will really, you know, promote me and I'll be able to climb the ladder. And it doesn't work that way. I feel like being needed. John Verrico: We learn the hard way, don't we? Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, and being needed can mean you know, just being taken advantage of, you know, quite honestly. And that is that's a tough, tough lesson to learn. John Verrico: I'm really glad that you you you opened yourself up and were vulnerable in that chapter in particular. and and that you were willing to share that story here today. And I I know I pulled Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Yeah. John Verrico: I I surprised you with that, I can tell. Ralph Kellogg: Yeah. John Verrico: but but I I thought that was really, really important and and a a a really strong lesson for people to to learn. that whether you're in the leadership position or you're in the worker position, you know, if you want you the the the value that people bring and the value that that you bring. And Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: sometimes we lose our own self respect when we Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: when we do all of that all of those things. Like you said, you know, you're constantly volunteering for s and I and I I'm one of those people. I I I do it all the time. My wife says Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. John Verrico: I've ha I have helium arm, you know. Every every time somebody needs something done, my my my arm is coming up constantly, you know Ralph Kellogg: That's great. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Verrico: and and you're right, you know, it it's it's that sense of feeling needed because if I'm needed then then you'll like me. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'll belong. Yeah. John Verrico: But but yeah, yeah, right. That that that and we are tribal in nature, right? We have we have a need to belong and a need to feel belonged. belonged? A need to feel like we belong. I don't Yeah, there we go. There we go. That's a better way to say it. Ralph Kellogg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Neat. Like there there you go. Yeah, I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John Verrico: But anyway, it it's really important then, and I think that this conversation, I think people should listen to it multiple times. There was so much gold that you shared here today. Ralph and I I appreciate that you you shared your your motivational fire with us today Ralph Kellogg: Yeah. John Verrico: to talk about all of this. And I think it's I'll say again, I think it's really important and I I love your book. Leading I I Ralph Kellogg: Thank you. John Verrico: haven't finished reading it, I've only skimmed through it and but that particular chapter had caught my eye. but Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, thank you. John Verrico: leading leading while human is available still somewhere on is it on Amazon? Ralph Kellogg: It's on Amazon and all the major book platforms. So if you Google it, you'll find it. John Verrico: Excellent. Excellent. And so Ralph, how can people get in touch with you? What is you know, what is the best way to reach out? Ralph Kellogg: Yeah, I I think I'm the only Ralph Kellogg on LinkedIn. So I think that's a good thing. So I'm on LinkedIn and then my website is Ralphkellog.com. So it you know it it outlines all the things that I do with speaking and writing and and things along those lines. So yeah, glad to continue this conversation with whoever wants to have it. John Verrico: I love it. I'll put all that all that contact info in the show notes as well. So thank you for taking the time to join us today Ralph Kellogg: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. John Verrico: and having a great conversation. And I know people will get a lot of inspiration and a little spark for their fire from Ralph Kellogg: Awesome. John Verrico: this. Thanks again. All Ralph Kellogg: Thanks, John. John Verrico: right, take care.