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Life without Parole for a Non violent drug charge: The Erik Burgess · Nightmare Success In and Out

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What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
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nightmares that set yourself free.
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We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
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Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
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humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
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something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
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Welcome back, Nightmare Success, Internet listeners.
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really help the show. I've got an interesting, I've
1:00
got an interesting guest because I always think it's, it's an
1:03
interesting episode when you've got somebody who has gone
1:08
through a journey where they were told they have life in
1:13
prison without parole. And you know, how do you get how
1:16
do you get your mind around that?
1:18
And I've got Eric Burgess here with me and, and he had, in
1:24
fact, I, I ran into something that was online and it was
1:28
called the returning citizens. It was, it was hosted by Google
1:31
And, and it really caught my attention on just how he was
1:35
talking about your mindset and what you got to do and, and keep
1:39
yourself, you know, present. Don't lose yourself and all
1:42
these different things that are so important, not just when
1:44
you're going to prison, just in general in life.
1:46
And I, I can't wait to jump into all that.
1:50
He, he, he went from 91 to 2918 years and he's, he's gotten out,
2:00
gotten back into society. We're going to talk about that
2:02
too, because re entry isn't easy.
2:04
You got to, it's just about as hard as anything else you can go
2:06
through because you've got to figure out how you get to
2:08
readjust back into life with this thing that's tattooed on
2:12
your forehead for the rest of your life.
2:13
And but you still got to, still got to step forward.
2:17
Before we jump into all that and unpack all that, I want to
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buying experience you deserve. Auto Plaza Direct telling Brent
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from Nightmare Success sent you Eric, how are you doing?
3:01
Wonderful, great, blessed honor to be on your show.
3:06
Well, it's great to have you. I'm glad you made the time to do
3:09
it. You know, I, I do think it's
3:14
always interesting because I've got a lot of different people,
3:17
you know, we're in season 4 here, but I always think it's
3:19
interesting to have somebody on that went through what she went
3:24
through because it's different than you.
3:26
You and I talked about this right before we got on, you
3:28
know, the difference. I got sentenced, you know, to
3:30
five years. You know, there's a, there's an
3:33
expiration point to those things.
3:34
But when somebody gets sentenced to life in prison without parole
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and I, you know, I was listening to another podcast that you were
3:44
on and you were talking about, you never considered that's
3:50
really what it was. You, you always felt like you
3:52
were going home and you stayed with that.
3:55
And obviously you did go home because you're on this podcast
3:58
today. And and it, it actually worked
4:01
out that you wasn't life without parole.
4:03
But what would have happened if you had just, you know, put your
4:06
head in the sand and given up on life.
4:08
And, you know, there's a good chance maybe you still would be
4:11
in just because everything and opportunities would pass by.
4:15
Before we get into that, though, Eric, take us back a little bit
4:19
and to where you were growing up, you know, parents, siblings.
4:26
Where was all that with little Eric Burgess?
4:29
I, I mean, I grew up, my grandparents has raised me.
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I grew up in a very loving home. Grandfather was hard working.
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He's still dead in me as well. I have two sisters,
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unfortunately one passed about five years ago so I have another
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sister and I are very close grew up education was very important
4:49
in knowing a household so I knew that from the start.
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I just got caught up, you know chasing the easy money.
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I said why I mind working and I work 3 jobs now so I don't mind
5:01
working. I said well why should I work
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just as hard when I can just sit back and make this easy money as
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I thought? Yeah.
5:10
Well, I mean, you probably were around a lot of people that were
5:13
older than you that were doing that.
5:16
And it looked like something that, hey, I could probably do
5:19
that too. Right, just gravity gravitating,
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you know, towards that lifestyle.
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I wasn't flash or flamboyant type of individual.
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So I really want, as we call it in the streets, low key.
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I want the Incognito or low key as well.
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So that didn't pan out as well. You know, unfortunately someone
5:41
caught a case, set us up, we know set myself up and my Co
5:47
conspirator up with the police and greed got me as well.
5:52
You know, I wasn't out here really trying to hurt anyone,
5:56
even at my parole office, parole hearing, even the parole when I
6:02
have my public hearing. And the guy said we know where
6:07
the what was the weapon? And I say, as you see in these
6:09
documents, there was no weapon. Now he's and you know, they had
6:12
that stigma that all drug dealers are violent.
6:15
Not you know, I understand, you know, that's his point of view.
6:17
I understand his possession because they feel all drug
6:20
dealers are, you know, are violent.
6:22
You know, I understand that that's the stigma that we have.
6:26
You know, for some, so some is true, but for some it's not.
6:29
So as I told him, I say, excuse me, Sir, but as you see in the
6:33
documents, you know, there was no weapons, you know, at all
6:37
like I got caught with you know what, some drugs.
6:39
He said, no, I had to be a weapon.
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I said. But unfortunately, you know,
6:42
fortunately it wasn't any weapons.
6:44
So I didn't consider myself a violent type of individual.
6:48
I consider myself a a dreamer that turned into a nightmare.
6:52
Yeah, a dream turned into a nightmare.
6:54
And I and I know I think you had maybe a couple of years before
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you got off on probation, but I'm, I'm curious when you got
7:05
when they hit you on this one and and it was, you know, it was
7:10
snitched out. And I'm not sure how how they
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came at you. Was it did they did?
7:16
Was it came to your place and arrested you or how did it come
7:20
down? It was in the Wendy's parking
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lot and I felt something. I felt something, you know, that
7:25
I think that was God talking to me because I felt something.
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Friend of mine, he was over there counting the money, but I
7:32
felt something because I made a phone call and it just didn't
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feel right. You know, it's I had that, like
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you said, that intuition. Feel.
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You just feel something that's not, but you just go ahead and
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do it anyway because you know my friend was involved and things
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of that nature. But, you know, if I just would
7:46
have followed my first mind, but everything happened for a
7:49
reason, if I would have followed my first mind left, you know, I
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couldn't end up standing this in that type of business.
7:56
I could end up dead or whatever. Yeah.
7:58
So I think everything happened for a reason.
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We said where there's where there's pain, there's purpose.
8:04
Yeah. So me going, you know, me
8:06
becoming incarcerated, could you could have saved my life?
8:11
Well, did you? Yeah.
8:12
It could have saved your life. I mean, there's, you know, you
8:14
never know what happens with the fork in the road when right
8:18
things happen when they took you and you know, you're you know
8:24
that you've been hit with this. Did you have any idea what the
8:29
ramifications could be for being charged in the penalty for not
8:35
at all a mandatory? I would have had a different
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mindset. Not at all.
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But you saw ignorance, ignorance to the laws, you know, no excuse
8:43
or no reason. So I was unaware and oblivious
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to, you know, to the penalty that that carries out.
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I'm quite not to a lot of, you know, some people are, you know,
8:53
some people may know. I think a lot of people in
8:56
general, you know, don't know the ramification.
8:58
They just know it's against the law.
9:00
Yeah. Yeah.
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That's just like, I mean, you have some doctors, you know,
9:04
they sell. Prescription drugs.
9:08
Right, prescriptions or things that keep Medicaid and what I
9:11
mean, whatever the case may be something they may not know the
9:13
pimp, but they know what they're doing is wrong.
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So that's all that you know, that's all it takes if you know
9:17
what you're doing is wrong or it is for us.
9:20
So there's there's no excuse or reason, you know, for you try to
9:24
even understand the penalty, you just know it's wrong.
9:28
So you when you get into that situation, how long did it take
9:35
from the time you got that arrest and I'm assuming did you
9:38
go to trial? No, fortunately we played no
9:43
contest. Was almost like, I think it was
9:46
a strategy because my lawyer said when by unfortunately, you
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know, you basically predominantly all White County,
9:53
you black man coming across, you know, in Detroit or whatever,
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you're going to get found Kitty. So I think it was a kind of AI
10:00
didn't agree with it, but I didn't know anything about the
10:02
law as well. So I played no contest.
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And that's equivalent to like pleading guilty, you know, so I
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think we try to raise ineffective assistant counseling
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things. But they shot that, you know,
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that was another 5 did not, you know, in the Court of Appeals
10:17
that issue as well. So that's, you know.
10:22
How long did that process process take for it, Eric?
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Will take a few couple of years, a few years.
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You know how Court of Appeals is always take wise you got to fill
10:30
out the habeas corpus and things of that nature.
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So it took a while, went to Supreme, Michigan Supreme Court,
10:36
they shot, you know, they denied it as well.
10:40
So you get taken and you said you were you went to four
10:45
different places. Walk me through the 1st place
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you went on that first day. It's called Jackson.
10:52
So the big house, what they call it Jackson is the big house.
10:55
That's where you go through quarantine.
10:56
Depends on your age. Think I was like 26, maybe 27 at
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the time, somewhere around about 26, about the turn 27.
11:05
So that's quarantine and that's, we call it behind the wall.
11:08
That's what they call it Jackson.
11:10
That's the nickname behind the wall.
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Cooper streets and that's where you majority of guys go once
11:16
they come in depends on how much time you guys had 30 years guys
11:19
had life life without no paroleable life, non paroleable
11:23
life which I had you know for selling drugs on my charge I was
11:28
charged and convicted of conspiracy to deliver and
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delivering over 650 grams of cocaine.
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So that's they was calling the 650 drug life of law at that
11:39
particular time. But now, since the law has
11:41
changed and been modified, I think you get about maybe four
11:44
or five years for the same charge.
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I. Was, but at that time, before it
11:48
was changed, the mandatory was story.
11:50
Life without no parole. Yeah, wow.
11:54
I got. But I did.
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I could say one thing doing the bond hearing, 'cause I was out
12:00
on bond for a couple of years as well and the judge was like, I
12:04
didn't judge told the prosecutor, well, I didn't let
12:07
murders and rapists go, you know, I don't bond.
12:11
So you know, these guys here, you know, like they said, it
12:13
wasn't no weapon involved. They just had drugs.
12:17
I guess he was a proponent for the, I don't think he believed
12:21
that the law has should have been that harsh and cruel and
12:24
because we got back from cruel unusual punishment.
12:26
So I think the judge already had his belief was that that the
12:31
penalty shouldn't be that harsh, right?
12:33
You know, his hands were kind of tired, but he did give us a bond
12:36
as well. What was what was, what went
12:39
through your mind when when they came down with that sentence, it
12:42
was life. Without I mean.
12:45
What goes through somebody's mind?
12:47
It's it's even hard to describe what goes through your mind at
12:50
that time. You know it, it described it.
12:54
It's like you've been driving and maybe just hit a some black
12:59
ice or something like that and you, you start spinning around
13:03
or something. You be like what you, how you
13:05
react. You don't, you know, you really
13:07
can't describe the reaction or the thought process until you,
13:11
you know, until you in that situation, you know, because no
13:14
one would understand. I was like, well, I know I
13:18
can't. I didn't want to become
13:19
distraught. I didn't want to become
13:21
despondent because my family was there and you know, your family
13:25
always feed off your emotion as well.
13:27
So I'd always had to be upbeat, had to be positive sometimes and
13:30
wanted to be. But that's how my mind started
13:32
to strain my mind. I got incarcerated, I became
13:35
active. I'm went to law library, worked
13:37
in my case. I got, you know, always stayed
13:40
employed. So I kept busy, which it helped
13:44
me, you know, assisted me once I got out from my transition by
13:47
developing work ethics that you never know, you know, that
13:51
you're going to accumulate or have the ability.
13:53
They even have work at least once you get in there.
13:55
Some individuals they try to commit suicide or things of that
13:59
nature, you know, they become despond.
14:00
They fall into that trap of being in prison.
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Was that, was that Eric, like when you first went in, was that
14:07
your immediate strategy is I'm going to control the things I
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can control? I'm going to get a good job in
14:12
here. I'm going to educate myself.
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I'm going to. Institutionalized, as they say.
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So I think all that nonsense, that negativity I wasn't
14:22
involved in, like I said, I worked on my head life without
14:25
no parole. I had to, I had to.
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I'm trying to work on my case. I'm trying to stay out from that
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nonsense I ain't got time for. I got life with no parole.
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So I have to get out. You know, my main thing, my main
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objective, my main goal, my short term goal.
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Stay out of trouble, mom, stay, stay mentally sharp.
14:43
Always have a plan so you be prepared.
14:45
You always got to be prepared regardless of the situation.
14:47
So I always felt that I was getting out.
14:51
I, I, I mean, I felt it just like I felt something was, you
14:54
know, going to happen and doing that, that incident, I always
14:57
felt that I was going to get out and I carried myself like I was
15:01
going to get out. So that's, you know, I carried
15:03
myself like I know I'm become free.
15:05
It's going to happen. I don't know when, but I, you
15:08
know, I felt, I mean, I felt you.
15:10
I mean, you feel the same like, like I said, something like God,
15:12
this is, this is something that's inside of us.
15:15
You know what I'm saying with that, that can tell when
15:18
something is going to happen, either a negative or positive
15:23
situation, how we going to react to it, which is we can feel
15:25
some, you know, you can. So we had that feeling.
15:28
I think that's just this. That's God in us for some
15:31
reason, God talking to us. So like I said, during the time
15:34
that I got arrested, I felt something was going to happen.
15:37
Once I got convicted, I felt that I was going to get out.
15:41
So your time going in, right when you got in, you know the,
15:47
because you know, you, the idea that you're going to be there,
15:52
but you, your idea was that you were going to be there forever.
15:56
As far as your family and everything around at that time.
15:59
Did you stay plugged into the outside?
16:01
Because a lot of guys who get that type of time, they just
16:04
unplug from everything and they don't want anything to do with
16:06
anybody And, and they become, and I think that's part of how
16:08
you can get institutionalized too.
16:10
But how did you handle that? I, I'm just trying to, I mean,
16:14
'cause I'm always, I kept with my family.
16:16
I have visits, thank God, you know, my family was always
16:19
there. I'm always making them smile,
16:22
cracking jokes or just what, you know, always upbeat, always
16:25
upbeat. I didn't want my family, you
16:27
know, my grandfather, he was getting old.
16:28
I didn't want my family to see me become despondent or
16:31
distraught or disassociated with them or not becoming sociable,
16:37
you know, being aloof or things of that nature.
16:40
So they're going to respond, they're going to feed off my
16:43
emotion. So if they if they come up there
16:45
or talk to me and and I'm down or in a somber mood or this.
16:53
Well, it had to be tough. Not sociable and things that
16:56
they going to feel the same way or they.
16:58
I was thinking Eric, it had to be really tough on a mom, dad,
17:01
grandparents that you got a son or grandson that that just got
17:06
with a non violent crime drugs is going to go to prison for
17:11
life without parole. I mean, I can't even imagine
17:13
having. AI know they, but I figured they
17:15
they never I know they was going through it mentally, you know,
17:18
emotionally, I know they you know, they felt, but when they
17:20
came up, I just had to make them feel that I'm all right, I'll be
17:24
home. That's not you know, I
17:27
understand where I'm at, but let's go ahead and try to join
17:30
this few hours. We had.
17:31
You know, we try to join these few hours that that we have on
17:34
physical when I call it, which all you all all right.
17:37
I like I said, I'm keeping the smile.
17:38
I may say some sense of humor, silly or something, you know,
17:41
just to keep their mind like a positive mindset when they talk
17:45
to me, because I don't want them like and he sound, you know,
17:48
they get off the phone and probably like how you sound, how
17:50
you doing? You know, he yeah, he upbeat and
17:53
things of that nature. So when I go out, I'm well
17:55
groomed when I go and visit things like that appearance, you
17:58
know, they I like to be well groomed.
18:00
So like I said, I'd like to have a very my appearance during that
18:05
time like to show that regardless of my decision,
18:08
because it wasn't a fault because I was properly raised,
18:11
it was my decision. I told my grandfather my
18:13
decision. So you know how to live with my
18:15
decision. You didn't do anything wrong.
18:17
Get everything that you could. And I truly appreciate that.
18:21
And that's because being well groomed, your parents, all that,
18:25
all that play for, I ain't want to go out looking.
18:28
Yeah, yeah. No, I get that.
18:29
This is like this is, you know, detached from.
18:32
Then they were even more right. Oh my God, parents completely
18:36
changed. He's turned into prison area.
18:38
Say your hair. Look at your clothes.
18:40
Love, you know, so, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:44
So what in that type of situation and I guess in in a
18:48
state prison, because I was federal, a guy that gets life
18:54
without parole. Are you in a maximum or a
18:56
medium? Using the Max they got like
18:59
level it depends on how much time you got to they got Max,
19:02
you got level, they got Max and they got level 4.
19:05
They got level 2 and level 1. Because when I went home I still
19:09
was in a level two yeah. I never went to level 1 because
19:12
the type is I still have parolable life.
19:14
So you can't excuse me, parolable life, you can't go to
19:18
level 1. It's almost like the camp.
19:20
So I was in level 2 because I had enough time, you know, you
19:25
got enough time in you and they give you points and all that
19:28
depends on your behavior. So I don't have any points in my
19:31
behavior according to prison policy was more than efficient.
19:36
OK, you know there for me for my, my security level to you
19:40
know to decrease as well. Were there programs in there?
19:44
Like I know a lot of guys like in Missouri here and different
19:49
places they they can take college courses.
19:51
Was that available? College when I first got the
19:53
idea to go to college, but they that was eliminated.
19:57
So I worked in the kitchen and also I became a GED tutor.
20:03
What else did I do? I was a Porter and also for the
20:07
last three or four years I got my certification and GIS was a
20:11
geographical information system that's dealing with parcels.
20:15
How to digitize maps as well? So I we had a computer factory,
20:19
so I worked in it in there and developed that that ability, you
20:23
know, to digitize maps. What did those maps go out to?
20:27
What the Department of Natural Resources in Michigan.
20:30
Wow, so you guys actually made the maps It digitized digitally?
20:36
Yeah, we digitized the parcels and maps and using SQL language
20:41
and things of that nature. So I I learned 3 DI didn't do
20:45
three DI, just did a digitizing maps as well.
20:50
What do you think, You know, 'cause I, I did, you know, it's
20:55
funny how you count time in prison and I, I, I didn't have
20:58
any anywhere close to time. You had, you know, ever since
21:01
five years, you know, I counted time so weirdly like, you know,
21:04
OK, this is I like it was in four phases, you know, it was
21:08
winter, spring, summer. I've only got that.
21:10
I've only got 3 or 4 more of those.
21:12
And then, but during time, the way you did it, did you, did you
21:16
even think? I almost think it would be
21:18
overwhelming to to get into thinking of time and time
21:24
sequences as much as just trying to figure out your routine, No?
21:28
I don't think about time. I mean, like, like you said, I
21:31
developed a routine which probably kept me busy, kept my
21:34
mind, you know, kept like I got up in the morning, went to work
21:37
right when it worked out. So I was always doing something.
21:40
I kept my mind occupied where I didn't really have time to
21:44
think. I was doing time, right?
21:46
Yeah. If you I don't had it, I don't
21:48
had time to think about it. I was doing.
21:49
Well, that's the crazy thing about it, you know, in prison,
21:51
you know, you, you could you have these routines because it
21:54
feels like you use your control. You know, that's why like when
21:57
they have a lockdown or something that just blows
21:58
everybody away because it's like completely out of routine.
22:01
I can't do this. I can't do that.
22:03
But what? So Eric, when was it that you
22:07
started feeling like you might have an opportunity or hope that
22:14
there was a way that you could get out?
22:16
It was a organization called Fan with Family against Mandatory
22:21
Minimum and they was galvanizing for this law to be changed.
22:25
OK. So they had a lot of momentum
22:28
and they, you know, drafted a bill and went through the
22:30
process and. How did you find out about it?
22:34
You know, good, good, just like bad news.
22:36
Good news. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.
22:38
Right, so we had like new we had newsletter called Sado state of
22:43
state of Defenders office and they was putting a lot of
22:46
information in there as far as this was families doing for the
22:50
650 drug life of law. And it was like I said, it's
22:54
getting a lot of momentum. You know, we and everyone who
22:56
has this type of case, you know, we we galvanized our people are,
23:00
you know, our family was going to these meetings and things of
23:02
that nature. So it's like we had built our
23:04
own community as well. Everybody who's charged and
23:07
convicted up under this law. If our family was going, we like
23:10
what what you know, what they say and what they doing say.
23:13
It's looking good. You know, so that's how I start
23:15
feeling. But.
23:17
How far along were you in your sentence when that started
23:19
happening? Probably about maybe 14 years.
23:29
Wow. OK, left. 50 cause let me see.
23:31
I became eligible, I became eligible for parole 2006.
23:38
So probably about a year, about two, maybe 14 years somewhere
23:42
around there for SO. You've done a lot of time and,
23:45
and this started becoming something and people started
23:48
advocating for it. And then how long did it take
23:51
from the time that you found out about it that it actually was a
23:53
law change that you could come up for parole?
23:56
The law changed like 2006. I think it took a couple years
23:59
ago. I think the law changed about
24:01
2006. I became eligible for parole.
24:04
Maybe law changed 2005, but I know I became eligible for
24:07
parole in 2006. What was that like?
24:11
I can't, I mean, I can't imagine.
24:13
I can't imagine the mind buzz that you you're fighting for
24:16
this deal. They changed the law.
24:18
All of a sudden it goes from life without parole that you
24:21
have a parole hearing. Is it like, is the, is the
24:26
parole hearing like in the movies where you the, the four
24:30
people are sitting in there and you go sit down in the chair
24:32
like red? It's it's Shawshank or what?
24:34
What's it like? Not too far, not too far from
24:38
'cause I, I have it because I had, excuse me, because I had
24:41
life. I had to have a public hearing.
24:43
It was about 3 or it was about maybe 55 members of the parole
24:49
board there. I had a had a parole board,
24:51
remember, come see me. You know, they ask you
24:53
questions, things that nature and the format.
24:57
What happened? I told the young, I told the
25:00
lady what happened. My grandfather, he represented
25:02
me. She said you going to do this to
25:03
your grandfather and she said something.
25:06
She said two things. She said I'm not doing this for
25:09
you. I'm doing this because your
25:10
grandfather needs you. I knew right then like I'm
25:14
getting, I'm getting I. Was good.
25:16
For the devil, though. And then she said, what made you
25:20
do this? You know, I told her, I
25:22
explained my situation to her, you know why?
25:24
And she was like, don't you know that people sell drugs?
25:28
They're telling their own mother, set their own mother up
25:31
just to get out. You know, that's what the parole
25:34
meal, that's what she said. And she said, she said once you
25:38
get this chance, you know never come back.
25:40
And so you ain't got the word. Right, that's not what I'm
25:45
thinking about doing. I should have told you being
25:48
incarcerated before. Yeah.
25:52
So, Eric, so you go to this parole hearing, public hearing,
25:59
you do it, and then like, how long do you have to wait to hear
26:04
what I mean? This is like gigantic news.
26:08
Man, I think I have my public hearing like maybe was it
26:15
January, maybe a couple of months?
26:18
You waited a couple of months and then how do you find out?
26:22
They send you a lot. They send you a letter, though.
26:24
You've been granted parole. This, you know, this is your
26:27
date. I think I got my date.
26:29
Like February, I got the day I was going home.
26:33
February, I think like February, I got the date OK, but you got
26:37
to and then so they send my paper you going home March 31st
26:41
I see I told my my family I found it like what you.
26:48
Know I just had I had to be a crazy.
26:51
I can't can't quite imagine that Eric as far as going into
26:56
prison, you never lost hope with it.
27:00
He always believed you were going home.
27:01
But there was a there was a law that said you couldn't the law
27:04
changes. You go to parole hearing.
27:07
You get the letter that says you you're going to go home.
27:10
What's going through your mind? Man elation, relief, bless.
27:21
Yeah. Fortunate because I mean you
27:26
meet a lot of good guys, you know you know I we meet a lot of
27:29
guys and they would appear to be good You know I think they
27:31
changed their life that's sincere and made them never get
27:34
out So you know I mean you develop almost like a it's.
27:39
A family. That's almost become your family
27:41
as well. Yeah.
27:42
I mean, you spent 14 years with them, right?
27:44
Right, You have, you have a lot in common.
27:46
Yeah. And then you beat, you know,
27:47
some guys, you know, they lost parents, right?
27:49
And then some guys had a a cellmate of mine is while we
27:54
wasn't in there, his son got killed.
27:57
This I mean. Yeah, you lean on each other.
27:59
Yeah, you lean right for that support.
28:01
Yeah, so. Yeah, I, I remember there was a
28:05
time it's a nice guy he was getting, he was, I think he was
28:09
only like 6 months from getting out and his son committed
28:12
suicide. And it was just like, you know,
28:15
that was his big thing that he was going home to.
28:18
And, and, you know, it was just devastating to me.
28:21
And I, I, I felt like, you know, that feeling that somebody,
28:25
having somebody die while you're in prison, I can't imagine.
28:29
But having, you know, a, a son or daughter that you think
28:34
you're going back to. But you know, there's a whole
28:37
group of guys, you know, just tried to, you know, walk him
28:40
through. So he didn't do something to
28:41
himself because he just felt like the world was over.
28:46
But it that's, I think that's one of the saddest things to see
28:48
that or women showing up with their divorce papers where the
28:53
guys think he's going to have this great visit.
28:55
You know, those are sad too. But there's definitely what do
29:00
you think you would I, I should ask you, what do you think you
29:02
were? What, what were the toughest
29:04
days for you in prison, man? Because there's not.
29:10
They're not all bad, but there are.
29:12
There are tough days. Everyday tough if you let it be
29:18
tough. Yeah, if you, I mean, it depends
29:20
on your mindset, right? You can have tough, you can have
29:23
a tough day like right now every day can be tough out here in the
29:26
free war if you let it. Yeah, right, right.
29:28
So if there's no, there's no, you can't escape prison.
29:34
Nope. Right.
29:35
And just like I hear you can't escape life.
29:37
No. So it depends on your reaction.
29:40
Because every day out here, it can be tough for you, right?
29:43
Yeah. Just like in prison.
29:44
Every day in prison can be tough, if you let it.
29:46
Right. So if you let it take you,
29:48
unless, unless you take it to that I, I, I so agree with that
29:52
because I kind of had a mind hack that I did with my calendar
29:55
that I would, you know, my, my daughter made me a calendar
29:58
every year and it was, I would ride in the box every night.
30:01
My win for the day. And you know, like people who
30:03
haven't been to prison, like, hey, Cassidy, how did you have a
30:05
win for the day in prison? Well, there's ways.
30:07
I mean, maybe I got forklift certified that I don't know.
30:09
But I, I put a win for the day. But if I had a bad day, I would
30:14
ride in that box that I had a bad day.
30:17
But I, my mind hack was, is I wouldn't let myself fill in two
30:20
boxes of bad 'cause I was afraid that two boxes of bad could
30:24
become a week, could become a month, could become a year.
30:26
And then I'd become this institutionalized monster that I
30:30
don't even know what that is, but I I honestly kept myself if
30:34
I filled in that box that I went to that next box and I had to
30:38
find something that day that brought me back up.
30:41
Exactly. And I, I think when I was
30:43
listening to you talk, you were actually talking on your own
30:47
podcast. I think it was your first
30:49
episode and you were talking about how you, you have to be
30:52
the one that's in control of, of how you handle things because
30:57
you can either handle it in a negative way or a positive way.
31:01
And how you do that is really a big way of how you're going to
31:04
get through, good or bad. Is that good or bad?
31:08
Your reaction? Yeah, that's why.
31:10
And a lot of people, even when I'm at work and they say you,
31:14
you don't never complain. They say like you'll never
31:16
complain about nothing because you don't know my story.
31:19
And. Right.
31:20
Yeah, because I'm humble enough. I've been, you know, through a a
31:24
very instrumental journey that, you know, that changed my life.
31:29
So what I mean, while I complain, the whole story goes
31:35
what I go now and say you see a guy without no shoes, but you
31:39
just think about the guy without no legs, right?
31:42
So it. Can always be worse.
31:45
Right. It can always be worse.
31:47
Y'all could always could be worse, always could be worse.
31:50
So Eric, you got out and it's been 18 years, 18 years.
31:56
I, I thought a lot had changed for me and I actually had only
32:01
been gone, you know, three years and 18 years walking out.
32:07
Like what was what did life look?
32:09
I always think it was like going from, you know, black and white
32:12
to color like what, 18 years? What?
32:15
What was that like walking back out into the world?
32:23
And who did you walk out to? Who?
32:25
Who was who was on the other side of that?
32:27
Oh, my grandfather, my sister, my cousin.
32:30
We were not there. I had a cell phone.
32:32
I got out even though I was talking loud in the restaurant.
32:37
I say I don't care. I get used to it.
32:39
Yeah, it was. Did you feel overwhelmed?
32:45
Did you feel like you had everything coming at you?
32:47
Or did you feel like, no, I'm back and I'm OK?
32:51
I'm I'm all right? I think I said I was all right,
32:55
man. OK, I think I said I was all
32:57
right because in visits. Yeah, kept you plugged in.
33:00
Right, right. Visits and had that that
33:03
connection with family, I mean plays a huge and integral part
33:07
in your your transition. I was reading.
33:11
What do you think? What do you think is the thing
33:13
that changed the most after 18 years, 'cause I mean, you see
33:16
things on TV, you know, you stay plugged in with your visits, but
33:21
walking back out, yeah. But you know what, what changed
33:24
my my perception. That's what changed the most my
33:27
perception. OK, It's how you perceive the
33:30
it's how you know your world's how you perceive it, right,
33:33
Right. Your perception is how you
33:34
perceive the world. So how I perceive everything was
33:37
like I'm out here now. So I had AI had a plan and now I
33:46
had a plan. I gotta say my give me one
33:50
minute unplug my laptop or they say my battery.
33:53
Yeah, we can't have your battery go out, Eric.
33:56
So I had a plan. Yeah, I know.
34:01
I was going to school, OK? I was going to work.
34:04
So my perception was my compass to you know, how everything
34:11
would overwhelm me and things, things that I was because it
34:15
seemed like I was always, I was, I guess everything that I
34:18
accomplished in there, the soft skills, you know, about working,
34:22
the things that I had a routine, it seemed like.
34:24
So I was kind of doing things that people doing, you know,
34:29
people doing society. So it really wasn't like my
34:31
transition wasn't really like overwhelming because I already
34:36
was actually made it to some of the things society was already.
34:39
And still I had a system. I was working, reading and then,
34:43
you know, the normal things or that life, you know, brings us,
34:47
you know, in society. So it wasn't really a huge
34:51
transition. I just had to learn how to, you
34:54
know, adapt to, you know, maybe certain things that like maybe
34:59
work or driving anything like even though driving anything,
35:03
I'm just certain things that I wasn't doing, I have to do.
35:06
But it wasn't nothing like I wasn't scared to go up.
35:10
I wasn't apprehensive or anxiety to going public, anything like
35:14
that. I was around 1000 people,
35:17
hundreds of people. I wasn't afraid to going to
35:22
classroom because I was already, you know, going to school was
35:26
taking, you know, getting certified or something.
35:29
So I had the, you know, the wherewithal or the ability or
35:35
the perception to how to, you know, just to navigate and, you
35:38
know, become involved, you know, in certain positive things.
35:42
So it wasn't like I said what people, I think people put them.
35:45
You know, that's how people become so, so in tune or so
35:52
defensive when they, you know, become really, I think we, we
35:55
sometimes we 'cause that trauma on ourself as well.
35:59
'Cause their own stress. Because now you afraid, you
36:03
almost become institute, You're afraid to do this, you're afraid
36:05
to live, you're afraid to go here, you're afraid to go there.
36:08
You're kind of apprehensive about talking to people.
36:10
But this, this society is now just you have to learn, you have
36:15
to learn how to adapt. And you know, sometimes they
36:17
don't teach us that learn how to adapt to best society.
36:19
I think sometimes that's why individuals, you know, go back
36:22
to the same destructive behavior as well, because they don't know
36:25
how to to adapt. They don't know how to become
36:27
vulnerable, right. Certain things that I do now,
36:31
you know, like my wife said, sometimes I'm selfish with my
36:34
time and that's one thing that I'm trying to get out.
36:37
Because you so used to just sometimes being alone while
36:40
you're incarcerated, you don't feel that yourself.
36:42
That's just you being alone. She was like, wait, sometimes
36:45
you selfish with your time, you know, and sometimes I had to
36:48
catch myself and apologize to her because I, I understand what
36:51
she's saying and I'm trying. It's not, I told her what I'm
36:54
doing is not intensity. Sometimes just used to being,
36:56
you know, you sometimes just used to being by yourself, just
36:59
peaceful, you know, you know, you can't be like that when
37:02
you're in a relationship as well.
37:03
So that's some I'm still working on as well.
37:06
Where did the wife come in to play Eric?
37:08
What was that? Was that before?
37:11
No in or after. After.
37:14
Yeah. Well, I met her 2011, July 4th,
37:17
2011. And when I told her I was
37:20
incarcerated, she like, hung up the phone.
37:22
She said, you did how much time? She said, what you do, kill
37:29
someone. I said, no, I'm just being
37:30
straight up, you know, I'm being real with you.
37:33
You know, this is what happened and things of that nature.
37:36
And she called her brother because I met her through her
37:38
brother. She said, well, he said, yeah,
37:39
he's a good guy, you know, he just got caught up in the
37:41
streets and she knows she gave me a chance.
37:44
To give me another chance. You know, I proved myself
37:46
because I was, you know, she's like, can we go out?
37:49
I said, I can't go out of town. We can go somewhere in Michigan,
37:52
but I can't go out of town. I can't go out of town.
37:56
The 1st place we went, the first place we went, I told her, I
37:59
promised the 1st place we went, we going to go, we going to go
38:03
out the country. So we went to Dominic, I think
38:06
my first trip to the Dominican Republic.
38:09
OK, yeah, we wasn't married at the time, but.
38:13
That was that was your, that was your first, that was your first
38:16
out of of Michigan. And gosh, no, it's how long?
38:20
I've been traveling ever since. Well, I want to take a break
38:24
here because when we get back, I want to talk about first of all,
38:30
the hardest part of re entry. What your thought is about the
38:32
hardest part of re entry? You got a bachelor degree in in
38:37
psychology. I want to talk about how, how
38:39
and what you want to do with that and what you're doing now.
38:42
So before we do that, I know a lot of people who listen to this
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39:59
Start here. So, you know, I know having a
40:03
positive mindset is absolutely essential, obviously Eric, to
40:08
get in, but what do you think's the hardest part of getting out
40:11
and getting out of the re entry world, trying to get your your
40:16
sea legs and walking? It's easy.
40:19
You, like you said, you. That's the hardest part.
40:25
Yeah. That's the hardest part.
40:27
It's, I mean, you. We stand in our own way.
40:29
Yeah, You know, we stand in our own way.
40:33
Wisdom is there. We just run from it.
40:35
That's that's true. Yeah, you.
40:38
I mean, we stand in our own way. You I mean, the help is there.
40:41
We just got to want it, you know, just like.
40:44
And be humble enough to take it. Be humble enough to ask for
40:46
advice. Be humble enough to ask for
40:48
help. Yeah, yeah, I get that.
40:51
Yeah, we stand in our own way. And be humble enough to take an
40:54
opportunity that might just be a stepping stone, you know?
40:58
Yeah, you know that. You never know what that job is,
41:01
is what could turn into something else that can turn
41:04
into something else. And you connect the dot with
41:06
somebody and network into a better situation.
41:09
You know, those are all things where a lot of people when they
41:13
get out say, well, I can't do that, I would never do that,
41:15
I'll never do that job. Whereas that could be a job that
41:18
takes you to something and somebody you meet, you notice,
41:21
they notice you, whatever those things can be, you never know.
41:25
So I have a thing. I mean, I what I built for
41:28
myself, this framework is a different mindset from I want to
41:33
do, I have to I want to do this, but it's the difference if that
41:40
contraction, right? I want to do this, I want to go
41:42
to work, but I have to catch the bus.
41:44
I want this, I want to go to school, but I want to do this
41:49
but I want it's always so you got to got to change.
41:53
Like I said, people change that mindset from want to that I have
41:57
to I have to do this because this what it leads to.
42:00
And if you see the difference between I want to and I have to,
42:04
it's more value than have to doing something.
42:06
They want to do something because you can find excuse to
42:09
not want to do it right, Right. I want to go to work, but only
42:13
they only have I got to be up at 4:00 to get to work at 6:00.
42:17
Yeah. Instead of saying, well, you've
42:19
been able to get jobs while you're out, but I'm, I'm
42:22
curious, you wouldn't got that psych?
42:24
Yeah, go ahead. I worked in the clothing store
42:27
like for on the weekends. I think I made like maybe
42:32
$120.00 a weekend, something like that.
42:34
So I was, I'm, I'm free. So I know I can get another job.
42:38
You know, I'm I'm free. Yeah, I bet my grandfather, he
42:42
said you ain't going to. He said you ain't not going to
42:44
pass the driver. You say, boy, you ain't drove in
42:47
20 years, you're not going to pass the drive.
42:49
I said, watch, I say I'll pass bet $20 and give me the keys to
42:53
the car. He gave me the keys to the car,
42:56
$20. You're good.
43:01
What do you think that means? You.
43:03
You said you're free, You know, 'cause you know, we know when we
43:07
go into prison. Free freedom's a state of mind,
43:10
right? What does that mean to you?
43:14
It means I'm be able to live my life like the Creator wanted me
43:20
to. Like they said, life, liberty
43:22
and happiness. I'm be able to live without any
43:24
constraints, without anyone telling me what to do.
43:26
I am becoming my own person. Yeah.
43:30
Going back to the core of who we are, we wasn't, you know,
43:34
created to become incarcerated. We created just to live life
43:39
abundantly. And that's what I want to do.
43:40
I wanted material things. Wasn't, you know, I wanted to
43:44
come to material things because we who don't like night
43:47
especially have to be an incarcerated.
43:49
You know, you want this, want that one.
43:50
I want to travel, I want to live.
43:53
I wanted to make my family proud of me.
43:54
That's first and foremost. I said I wanted to make you
43:56
proud of. So I took each, each small step
43:59
was a win. My first job, that was a win for
44:02
my first car, getting a bachelors degree, All these were
44:05
small wins and that's something I was looking for.
44:08
The bigger picture. I was just looking for the the
44:10
first stroke step. At a time, Yeah, Step at a time.
44:15
Each stroke is like painting a picture.
44:17
Each stroke builds you up to the.
44:19
That's a win. Right to the final masterpiece,
44:22
and that's what I was doing this one one slight stroke at a time,
44:26
1 slight stroke at a time. Yeah, that's and that's how I
44:29
took it. You know, that's how I took it.
44:31
So and I when I went to school, I didn't know honestly, I didn't
44:36
have an idea without, you know, what I wanted to major in.
44:39
I just know I wanted to get a degree.
44:40
And then I met I took the test and things and you know how you
44:45
introduce yourself in the in the college class and what brought
44:48
you here? I just I told my story and then
44:51
my I told my story because I got AI think my first Test, I got AC
44:56
and then my professor, like, you know, he said, I see, you know,
44:59
you can do the work and things like that.
45:01
He said just start taking, you know, practice, take notes and
45:03
things of that nature as well. And I end up getting AI class.
45:07
Yeah, I think you should major in psychology.
45:08
That's what maybe that's what maybe going to psychology.
45:12
That's why you went into psychology is his.
45:14
Suggestion. I didn't have idea what I wanted
45:16
to, you know, they give you classes out of he's in a
45:19
counselor. I said I think you'd be good at
45:21
taking a psychology class. That's how I became that's how I
45:25
got my my my major chose my major in psychology in one class
45:30
I did at all the time going to school.
45:32
I failed one class and that was psych stats, psychology,
45:36
statistics man that's. Statistics is tall.
45:41
Man, that's a harder class I've had in my life, man.
45:45
I took political science because there was no math.
45:48
Man, psych stats, that's the hardest class I ever had in my
45:53
life, Man, I passed it without, you know, second time and put
45:57
the effort in like I should have about working.
45:59
You know, it's kind of hard and I had to study for it and the
46:02
second time my professor helped me the second time I passed it
46:07
like with AC plus and but matter of fact, I was telling other and
46:10
telling other guys in there and I said, man, this class for me,
46:14
it was hard. I said you're going to put work
46:17
in and I have one guy, you know one guy say man, one for you
46:21
here keeping your keeping your foot up my rear and I don't
46:24
think I would. They wouldn't have made it.
46:26
Yeah, helped him out. Yeah, he said him and I still,
46:29
you know, we still talk today. And my professor, though, my
46:32
professor, he's him and I talk. As a matter of fact, he moved to
46:37
Washington. I think him and his wife work
46:39
for what do the college Gonzaga. I think Gonzaga is out there.
46:44
Yeah. So I spoke to him one of his
46:46
psychology classes. What do you think of you want to
46:52
do anything with a psychology degree?
46:54
Right now I've been blessed. I'm a board member of this
46:58
company called St. which is a digital integrated platform AIAI
47:06
data-driven companies, you know, lady starting for returning
47:10
citizens. OK, so I'm kind.
47:12
Of. I like that.
47:13
I'm, I'm starting using my, you know, my psychology degree, you
47:19
know, towards helping her out and things of that nature as
47:22
well. So she said she appreciate that
47:24
this is, this is making an impact because what, what I
47:29
think is in value. And you know, what we value is
47:33
what we put our effort into, regardless what we doing.
47:36
You know, evidently I value doing wrong.
47:38
So I didn't value myself. We had to value ourself first,
47:41
you know, so whatever you value, that's what you put your effort
47:44
towards. So if you value doing foolish
47:46
stuff, that's what you're going to get, you're going to get
47:48
foolishness back. If you value doing something
47:50
positive and doing something I didn't.
47:52
I mean, because if you honestly out here selling drugs, you
47:55
don't value anyone. You don't value people anything.
47:57
You just seeing the money. You don't, you don't value
47:59
anyone if you don't value people.
48:01
I mean, that's, that's like, I mean, that's, that's life
48:05
one-on-one. If you don't value people, if
48:07
you don't value your marriage or you don't value your children,
48:09
if you don't value yourself, if you going to work late or
48:12
whatever or what, you know what the case is?
48:15
You can't get to work on time or you're not doing your homework
48:18
in school. You don't value yourself right?
48:20
It's what you value. It's not, it's not complicated.
48:22
We make it complicated. We make it complicated.
48:26
You know, make it complicated. We are home worst enemy.
48:30
It's true. Or if if you think about Eric,
48:34
the this whole thing that you've been through, I mean, it's quite
48:38
a story. What?
48:39
What do you think's your greatest take away from all this
48:42
rival buddy that's listening out there?
48:46
My greatest take away is I would like to make an impact and put
48:52
value on not having someone to tell a story I'm telling as a
48:59
returning citizen. That's the greatest impact we
49:02
can have while we wait to have these symposium or interview the
49:10
things of that nature. Instead of being proactive, we
49:13
react, which is, I mean, which is, you know, we should all get
49:16
our story out there regardless of what we can always someone
49:19
else always learn from us as well.
49:22
But we need to start valuing ourselves.
49:26
You know, like you returning citizen.
49:27
Unfortunately I'm returning as many others, but what can we do
49:31
to stop this? The cycle.
49:34
Right from swinging because we all, you know, a lot of people,
49:37
a lot of people that commit crimes and come from broken
49:39
homes. They didn't come from broken
49:41
homes. We just, you know, made a bad
49:44
deal, unwise decision that cost us, you know, our freedom.
49:49
But what can we do for we know individual won't become
49:53
returning citizens. This thing if people didn't
49:56
commit crimes at all, unfortunately, they wanted no
49:59
need for prison and we had we can have the mindset as well not
50:03
to commit crimes, but we just need to value ourselves and
50:07
value you value ourselves and value each other.
50:09
And I think you know, you have more people.
50:11
You know, we think we can give more people insight or choosing
50:16
a different lifestyle. What we we don't have to have
50:19
these podcasts called the returning citizen podcast,
50:22
second chance higher. What I mean what all this stuff
50:25
is coming forth now, but it was it was it was before, even
50:28
before we got incarcerated. It was what's wrong with just
50:32
stopping this, this draconian sentence in this system, man,
50:36
where, you know, we having young men, especially young women now
50:40
becoming that, you know, returning citizens, you know, so
50:45
that I mean, that's what I that's what I would like to see
50:48
if more, yeah, more we get children.
50:50
Like what made you not you see, you see all this poverty or
50:56
these dynamic factors that, you know, some of your friends are
51:00
becoming susceptible to. And you know, what made you not
51:03
go that route? We start having these children
51:05
or men or women or whatever, start interviewing people who
51:08
haven't became returning citizens and have them till they
51:11
because they have a story as well.
51:13
You know, what made you not become a returning citizen?
51:16
What made you not start selling drugs?
51:18
What made you not start robbing people?
51:21
You do and then your father may went to prison or your mother or
51:24
whatever. What made you break the system?
51:26
What did you do different that you can tell someone instead of
51:29
what you know? Wait till I become return says
51:32
for me to tell my story. Let's go on to some of the
51:35
right. Well, I think, and I think I
51:37
think, you know, Eric, the the reason why I think your story is
51:40
important for people to hear that this this podcast goes into
51:45
1100 prisons, state prisons. I think there's, there's a
51:48
couple of big things that or takeaways that I get out of your
51:51
stores. 1 you, you always had hope.
51:55
You always believed that you were going to go home and you
51:59
acted like you were going to go home.
52:01
And I think that's it's important for people not to lose
52:05
that sense of hope that there's always a opportunity for
52:11
something better. And you know, for, for any of
52:14
those people listening to this, you know, a lot of that is just
52:19
stepping, you know, and, and a lot of it is stepping into stuff
52:23
you don't know. It's the unknowns.
52:25
That's what scares people. And that's what gets people
52:27
institutionalized is they stay in this ugly routine because
52:31
that's the ugly thing they know, even though they hate it, that's
52:35
the thing they're most comfortable with.
52:36
But what I like about your story is, is that you each time you
52:42
never gave up, you kept stepping into it.
52:45
You even when you know, I'm sure you and your family and
52:48
everybody else really went into advocating for that, that law
52:51
change. And but you kept your you kept
52:54
your, you know, you're to the ground to figure out what was
52:57
available, what could happen. And I think that's how you know
53:01
you've, you've entered, re entered because a lot of people
53:03
when they re enter, getting out of prison and not for the amount
53:09
of time you did, but they're, they're just so overwhelmed and
53:12
they give up. And your story is one of never
53:15
giving up. And I think that's a big not
53:18
giving up. Keeping hope, looking for
53:20
opportunities is something that all of us can look at and say,
53:24
OK, I could do that. I don't have to be negative.
53:27
Right. And and hope is simple hope, I
53:29
mean acronym is helping other people every day.
53:33
Yeah, if you, if I help you, right, you help someone else,
53:38
someone else help me. It just it goes around.
53:41
It goes all the way around it. Goes all the way around 360
53:45
helping other people right and then think you think I say think
53:50
to harbor ignorance negates knowledge.
53:53
So I mean to do my acronyms. I try to live by hope, helping
53:57
people, helping other people every day, you know, even that
54:01
work. I, I'm a team leader.
54:02
So I go around and say, Hey, how you, how your day going?
54:05
You all right, everything all right, anything I can do it try
54:08
to keep a smile. I just don't, I try to my job is
54:14
I'm not, I'm not there to, I'm not an overseer.
54:16
I just want to inspire you and encourage you because it's not
54:19
all about the job. You know, you may be going
54:21
through something that we don't even know about.
54:22
Hey, how you feel today, you all right and things of that nature.
54:25
So I'm a I'm a team leader, about 7 to 8 people.
54:29
I'll just make sure, you know, Yeah, your day.
54:30
All right. How you doing?
54:32
I just try to inspire, you know, Inspire.
54:34
Keep everybody up. Right, right.
54:35
So I mean like you said, hope helping other people every day
54:39
they say you not need to use something and they say I'm nice
54:42
or I'm too nice. Why not?
54:45
I mean. Why not?
54:47
Right. You never know what others are
54:48
going through. You don't.
54:49
You know, people never know. Death in a family or thing they
54:53
still come to work, put it, you know, some trying to put a smile
54:57
on trying to come to work. So you just, you never know.
54:59
Just you. Never know.
55:01
You know just it's still hoping someone is trying to inspire
55:04
someone regardless of what it is you like you say have someone
55:07
bring a smile to someone face might make a big difference.
55:11
Be a better place. You know.
55:14
Eric, man, I appreciate it. And as we're talking about
55:16
gratitude and all this, I want to thank Homestead Financial who
55:20
lets me use this podcast studio. It's got all the fancy lights
55:23
and and equipment here. If you've got home mortgage
55:27
needs at Homestead Financial is Greg Aftia.
55:31
If he's your guy, he knows everything about it.
55:33
If you're looking for a book out there, I've got one nightmare
55:36
success. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes
55:38
and Noble. Don't forget to, like I said,
55:41
like this thing up, follow, share it comments, all those
55:44
stuff. I really appreciate.
55:46
If you got time, leave a review on Apple.
55:47
If you want to know more about what I've got going on, go to
55:50
brentcastee.com, my website. I spell it wrong.
55:53
I spell it with a Ty, not a DY. And as I used to say when I was
55:59
sending my emails back and forth from Leavenworth, stay strong,
56:02
I'll do the same. Eric, man, thanks a lot for
56:06
being here today. I appreciate it.
56:08
Yes, Sir. Good, good man.
56:10
Thank you. I appreciate it.
56:11
Keep keep up the good work. I appreciate it man.
56:13
Nightmare success in and out. All right, take care.