Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / The Shift from Correction to Capacity
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention. Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. I'm Tracy. And today's conversation goes directly to the heart of what we believe is essential in divorce coaching. The shift from rushing to correct, fix, manage or solve what a client is experiencing and instead helping them build the capacity to stay connected to themselves through one of the most destabilizing transitions of their life. This speaks directly to autonomy and agency and the work we do as divorce coaches and to the way our role aligns with dispute resolution processes. When clients are able to regulate, reflect, and access their own voice, they are better positioned to participate meaningfully in communication, negotiation, decision-making, and conflict resolution. Divorce is not just a legal process. It's not just a set of decisions. It's not just paperwork, negotiation, parenting schedules, financial disclosures or settlement proposals. Divorce is a deeply human conflict process. And when people are moving through divorce, they are often moving through fear, grief, uncertainty, threat, anger, shame, overwhelm, and identity disruption all at the same time. They are being asked to make some of the most consequential decisions of their lives. That's a lot to ask of a human nervous system. And yet in our field, there can be an understandable pull towards an immediate action, right? Towards strategy, towards problem solving, towards helping the client communicate better, prepare better, negotiate better, or respond better. And don't get me wrong, those things matter. Strategy matters. Communication matters. Preparation matters. But one of the questions we continue to come back to at DCA is this. Does the client have the capacity to access that strategy in the moment they need it most? Because if someone is flooded, shut down, panicked, or operating from threat, even the best script or the most thoughtful communication strategy may not be accessible. And in my humble opinion, There is no one better to be talking with me about the shift from correction to capacity than my guest and dear colleague, Michelle Browning. Hi, Michelle. So Michelle's work orients people through the endings. I love this, messy middles and new beginnings of midlife transition, guiding nervous systems back to their senses when life doesn't make sense. Michelle Browning: Tracy. Thank you. Thank you. Tracy Callahan: She is a somatic, experiencing practitioner, certified mental health coach, certified divorce coach, and educator. Michelle trusts human wholeness and supports the reclaiming of voice, agency, strength, and direction, one tolerable step at a time. Michelle, welcome. I am so glad to have you here. It's been way too long. Michelle Browning: It's so good to be back. So good to see you. So good to be able to share precisely about this. This is an area of coaching that we can always use a tune up around, I think. Tracy Callahan: Absolutely, absolutely. So as we kind of head into this topic, I know one of the things that we wanted to share is you were going to tell a story, share a story, to set tone for this discussion. So I'm going to turn it over to you. Michelle Browning: Thank you. Yeah, I really want to anchor into this story and invite the listener to just hold it as we go through this discussion today. Just hold the possibility of this story and then we'll revisit it at the end. this is adapted from the story, The Boy and the Butterfly. A young boy came across a butterfly chrysalis and brought it into his house. He watched over the course of hours as the butterfly struggled to break free from its confinement. It managed to create a small hole in the chrysalis, but its body was too large to emerge. It tired and became still. As the boy witnessed the butterfly's distress, he felt a tightening in his chest and a quickening of his heart rate and an urgent, restless push of energy mobilizing him to do something. This internal activation became too uncomfortable to sit with. He was desperate to soothe his own escalation and to stop the discomfort. So his body mobilized to rescue the butterfly. Wanting help, he grabbed a pair of scissors and sniffed a slit into the chrysalis. Immediately the pressure dropped and the boy felt a wave of relief. He noticed a feeling of settling in his chest because the danger of the struggle had been managed. But the butterfly emerged weak. and its wings were crumpled and small. The boy expected the insect to take flight, but instead, can only drag its undeveloped body across the floor. It was completely incapable of independent flight. The boy in his urgency to escape his own discomfort had interrupted a bio-biological process. What he didn't know was that the butterfly systems needed the high activation resistance of that confinement. The intense pressure was exactly what was required to pump blood Tracy Callahan: you Michelle Browning: into its wings and to build its capacity. By over-functioning and bypassing the discomfort, had inadvertently stolen the insect's opportunity to build resilience. It was the struggle that made it stronger. So, okay. Tracy Callahan: Yes, yes, yes. I've right. We've all been there and I am so glad I love that story. It's beautiful, sad and beautiful, right? Also very real. Very real. Michelle Browning: one you Yeah, and we've all been in that position where we just want to not feel the discomfort of being in someone else's perceived distress or pain. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. And that's often where we find ourselves as divorce coaches, right? Supporting people as they move through endings and uncertainty instead of trying to fix them. And I think there's an important distinction here, right? Because he was also not only trying to ease his own anxiety and stress around this, he was trying to do it with good intention. Right? And this is an important distinction, right? Because clients come to us in distress, right? And our professional instinct can be to move quickly, right? Towards relief, answers or actions. And it is not about abandoning strategy, but recognizing that that person may not be ready for strategy where the butterfly was not ready to emerge, right? So I'd love to start this off, right? When you think about divorce, what does that shift look like, both for the client and for the coach experiencing or supporting that person? Michelle Browning: Yeah, for me, the shift comes with us as the coaches. It's about shifting from relating to this as a problem and going into problem solving mode and rather focusing on our beingness as the most powerful resource that we can offer our clients. So. This is working on our own regulating presence. It is noticing when we get activated going with clients and taking care of ourselves so that we're not merging with their story, merging with their activation, ⁓ becoming part of the conflict because we've identified, there is a problem. There's something to do here. And rather yielding into a sense of self-trust that's really embodied. It's really a space of, ⁓ wow, I'm feeling that quickening. I'm noticing some thoughts that there's something to do here. We need to move faster. And instead, settling back, taking a pause, you know, we talked about this in coaching. I don't think that we give it as much context as it needs. Like, why are we pausing? The pause is for us to gather ourselves and organize our own energy so that we can be sturdy and steady and that they can lean into us when they're not. Tracy Callahan: you Yeah, I love that because it challenges this assumption that helping always sort of means moving someone forward quickly, right? And then divorce forward can become such a loaded word, right? And you and I've talked about this a lot before, right? Sometimes clients in divorce processes don't necessarily get to dictate their timeframe or their process, right? Especially if there's courts involved. But I think it's inherently, ⁓ more intentional in this process, right? Because people are constantly being told to move on, get over it, make a decision, respond to an attorney, answer an email, set a boundary, take the high road, be the bigger person, right? Stay calm, be responsible. I mean, all of that, right? And while some of that may be well-intended, right? It can also become another form, if you will, pressure. So, The clients are experiencing this and then if we are contributing as divorce coaches, right? And I think taking that pause is great. Understanding why that pause is important both for the client and for the coach. It is to me critical. So I really want to acknowledge that. Michelle Browning: Yeah, the push energy is what we're looking for. If you notice that push energy in your body, for me, I go into that place, that activation feels like energy in the back of my body and my glutes turn on. So I'm very much mobilized and moving in and... Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Michelle Browning: And it's an opportunity to just notice that I'm gripping or leaning in and asking myself if there's room for me to settle back, feel into the support in my back body and approach it from that place instead of this, gotta do, gotta do, gotta move. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, yeah. And I also, you know, kind of pulling in from that story, you know, one of the things that we know that is hard for all professionals, well, lot of, I'm gonna make a bold statement and say the majority of professionals, right, working in the field of divorce is this urge to help, right? And sometimes that urge, similar to our little boy in the story, can come from our own discomfort. of witnessing someone else's pain. And I think it's an important ethical conversation for divorce coaches because helping sounds inherently positive, right? It sounds generous, it sounds compassionate. But if we're not careful, right, helping can become a way to soothe our own discomfort, right, rather than truly, truly serving the client. So let's talk more about that, right? What happens inside professionals when they're witnessing a client's grief, right? Panic, rage, fear, uncertainty. And why does that significantly matter so much? And I have my own thoughts on this of how other divorce professionals handle this in my experience, but I'm curious on your thoughts ⁓ specifically as we look at the field of divorce and then divorce coaching. Michelle Browning: Yeah, I think there's a lot of dysregulation in our industry. just gonna name it. I think ⁓ there's a lot of relating to this as a really big fire we need to put out immediately. And you're right, helping is never neutral. There's always an agenda behind it. And the opportunity as a coach is to inquire about that. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Browning: Who am I helping right now? There's an urge that comes before the helping behavior, before the thought I need help. And sitting with that urge and getting curious about our own capacity for grief, our own capacity to be with rage, our own capacity to face revenge or... or anything that kind of butts up against our edges of intensity, can we just notice when we're activated and take care of ourselves instead of unintentionally sending the message that, okay, this is beyond you and you need my intervention and that does not help? actually invalidating of their ability and it's confirming for them all of the confusion that they're sitting with that they can't handle it. So we want to be really careful about that question. Who am I helping? Tracy Callahan: Right. Yeah. And I think it's where divorce coaching sort of requires, if you will, a sophisticated presence, right? It's not just about being warm or supportive, right? It's also not just being about being knowledgeable or having the answers. It's really, as I see it, staying grounded when a client is not grounded to try to create that space for them to find that for themselves. Michelle Browning: Hmm. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: Right? It's like two things in motion, right? If one is not, if they're both moving, they're both being sort of staying in motion, if you will, rather than land. My thoughts, anyways. Michelle Browning: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, I, I think of us as ⁓ as as a resource for our clients to borrow. I often think about it much like parenting. You know, we can tell our kids what to do. We can advise them, we can warn them, we can give them more information. And that only gets you so far. And then Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Michelle Browning: And then they're either ⁓ in a relationship with you where there's ⁓ tension because you're sort of power-overing them, or they're so dependent on you that they can't make a move without your input. And we want to be careful that we're not forming either of those relationships, that we're simply there as a resource that our plants can plug into. when they're not able to find their own sturdiness or their center, that's the way that I relate to it. When they feel like that center is hard to find. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love those two metaphors, right? There were analogies borrowing or plugging into, right? Because I do believe divorce coaches genuinely want to support people, right? Most people come into this work because they genuinely care deeply about helping clients move through divorce, right? With more clarity, less reactivity, more confidence. Michelle Browning: Hmm. Tracy Callahan: But sometimes that desire to support can turn into rushing to solutions. And we know in this process, right, that I often say, you can't go around it, you got to go through it. But going through it with somebody pushing you through it is not necessarily going to be beneficial either. Because clients are often in this state of overwhelm that we so eloquently talk about. So Can you maybe talk a little more specifically about how that shows up in practice, right? Or that desire to support somebody rushing to a solution actually is contributing to that overwhelm. Michelle Browning: Yeah. So it is hard to be with stuckness. It's hard. It's hard. We think of ourselves as people who can help people move places. so the discomfort that shows up in us when we're perceiving that our planet is stuck. And I say that purposefully because it's much like, I think of this as like a plant, right? we don't always see the plant blossoming or fruiting, but there's always something going on that's actually forward movement. And holding that is really important, like trusting the process that there is forward movement happening, whether it's tangible or documentable. Like that's, that's, that's another story. But, but the fact that your plant has shown up, Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Michelle Browning: and is here to work on something and is in relationship with you is evidence that growth is happening, movement is happening. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah, how we define productivity, right? Michelle Browning: Yes, yes. So, so you brought up an interesting question. What happens when people are pushed quicker than they're able to sort of manage, right? They're already overwhelmed. From a nervous system perspective, we can push people who are already sort of frozen into a deeper freeze. That's what happens. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Michelle Browning: because the system is already overwhelmed and they may go through the motions with you. If you like say, okay, let's, let's get a proposal down. What's your proposal on this? And you start walking them through it. Oftentimes people can move through a process with you, but they're actually not there. We call this functional freeze. And a lot of us live our whole lives in this place where we're doing the thing, but we're not actually coming from an embodied or conscious place while we're doing it. And so there's a lot of regret on the other side of that because we weren't really consenting to the process. We were just doing what we being told we should do or that we needed to do. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Yeah, I see that a lot when I sit in on a client attorney meetings, honestly, sort of client who's sitting there. Yeah, neutral technique. Yes, looks like they're fully engaged. Uh huh. Yeah. Sounds like sounds good. And then, you know, we we process after the attorney leaves and the client says to me, I have absolutely no idea what was just said what we're doing. Michelle Browning: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: And I have become very attuned to being able to recognize it now and try to an effort, ⁓ measures in the session with the attorney to clarify, to slow it down, to take that pause. But it's amazing when you see it to be able to recognize it because it really does look functional. It really does. It looks as if there's a full engagement in that process. Michelle Browning: Yeah, there's nodding, there's agreement, there's smiling, there's, yeah. But I'm curious because you said that you can recognize it now. Can you name some of those subtle cues, Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, there's almost this detachment, right? Like after working with a client and being able to see something behind the eyes, I know, yes, right? So intention in eyes, right? It becomes more of a blank or a more steady gaze, but it has all of the other stuff associated with it. ⁓ I can also see ⁓ or hear a change in tone. Michelle Browning: Yeah. Tracy Callahan: in invoice structure. those are all sort of signs to me after working with a client that, something's not right. They're going through the motions. They're doing what they believe they're supposed to be doing, which is taking in all of this information in regards to their legal strategy and next steps, yet not really truly processing or overwhelmed in that process that they're in this. Michelle Browning: Yeah, there's something. Tracy Callahan: almost robotic functional free state. Michelle Browning: Yeah, and it takes a highly attuned coach. It takes a coach who is aware enough that they can recognize that. yeah, a distance that you can recognize, affect changes, ⁓ something sort of, like you said, automatic, robotic. It's kind of like they've gone away, but their body is still. like on the flow of whatever it is that they're being told. So that's what we want is to notice those subtle cues. And in order to do that, we have to be attuned to our own cues. Like, am I feeling right here? What am I noticing? And then taking that risk of checking in. Hey, where did you go right then? Or what's happening? Are you present? Do you need a break? What would help you anchor into this moment? Is this too much? All of those are ⁓ options to offer when you notice that your planet is ⁓ there but not there. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. And this other thing that, you know, kind of connected to that, we often see clients in that state of overwhelm, right? Making a decision just to stop that discomfort themselves, right? That they're in this own state of feeling ⁓ lack of trust or lack of understanding or overwhelmed or all of those things that we talked about, right? We see it sometimes in negotiation fatigue. or just saying, okay, I'm gonna do this just to sort of stop that experience and that process. ⁓ And then they agree to something because they're exhausted, right? Or they send an email because they just can't tolerate not responding anymore because sitting in that space of overwhelm, right? And they escalate ⁓ because their nervous system experiences ⁓ this, it's unbearable if you will, right. Or the uncertainty. So, and I think from a lot of people looking at that from the outside, where I hear a lot of other divorce professionals talk about this is sort of labeled, irrational or difficult or unreasonable. ⁓ sometimes high conflict, depending on what the nervous system engagement is. But we understand capacity, right? We can see something different, right? So what are we seeing? What are we looking for, right? Michelle Browning: Great question. And what are the tools that the coach has to assess capacity? Like, what even is that? Tracy Callahan: A better grade. Yes. What tools does the coach have the ability to assess capacity? Michelle Browning: Yeah. So capacity is an interesting word. A lot of these words have been co-opted from other sort of modalities and they, again, they don't have a lot of context around them. So when it comes to nervous system capacity, we're talking about a window of tolerance that's actually physiological. So it has to do with where you are in your arousal. So are you hyper aroused, meaning you're in your sympathetic nervous system, that's that urge to approach the threat. We call that fight or flee from the threat, get away from it, withdraw because that's that's the place we go in sympathetic. Or are you in hypo arousal, which means that you've given up this is like waving the white flag or whatever they want, I'm done, it's not worth it. So, so we can start to notice our plant's state based on the history of our work with them, because these are patterns that show up consistently. Like they're not just one off situations, they're, they're the ways in which the nervous system responds. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Browning: consistently to anything that doesn't feel safe. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Michelle Browning: So growing capacity is the question, right? As coaches, it's outside of our scope to do bottom up things like I do in somatic experiencing that help to grow capacity. The ways in which capacity can grow in a divorce coaching setting is number one, to be a regulating resource so that your client can feel into the safety and consistency and support on a regular basis, knowing that you're not going to abandon them, you're not going to judge them as difficult or illogical or whatever, that you're there and you get it and all of it makes sense to you. That steadiness helps to grow capacity. And then the other thing is tiny tolerable steps that they define Tracy Callahan: Mm. Yeah. Michelle Browning: That's how they grow capacity. So, you know, they might have to, like I had a client recently who had a stack of discovery she had to complete, collapsed under the idea of it even. And so the question really became what was tolerable and even just looking at the paperwork was overwhelming for her. So we started to just start in the imagination. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Michelle Browning: What do you imagine it would feel like if you completed even one step of that process? And just starting there, starting to play with the feeling of the completion, allowed her to step into then taking actual tangible steps. But tiny tolerable steps, those wins build on themselves and that's what builds capacity. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that the tolerability, right? It's a significant part of both healing and transition, I think, as clients are looking at navigating this process. So we talk a lot about those action steps. So this balance right between the work that we do in helping clients engage in movement forward. but that in a space where it's tolerable and scale, right, to actually help the client do something and stay connected to it. I think it's so significant in how we do that. And one of the things that I also want to just sort of circle back on that I love you for is really this connection of language. How significant language is and what these words mean to both the coach as well as to the client. Michelle Browning: you Yeah, there's so many buzzwords anymore, Tracy. I feel like especially with social media, so many of these words have been co-opted and we use them colloquially, but not really understanding what we're referring to. ⁓ capacity is one of those because that means different things to different people. Regulation is another word that often comes Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Key buzzword, right? That we talk a lot about is regulation, right? Being able to Michelle Browning: Yes, and even trauma is a buzzword now. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I speak a lot about this whole idea of trauma informed versus conflict informed in these buzzwords and everybody is, you know, calling themselves a trauma informed this and a trauma informed that and I'm not taking away the significance of it. Right. But in in divorce coaching, we we talk a lot about this idea of recognizing the significance of regulation before strategy, right? When clients are engaged in or threats and we're talking about, they just don't have the ability to access the capacity to engage in strategy, not because the strategy is unimportant, but because strategy requires access, right? And a client has to be able to think, reflect, evaluate options, right? Be in that. thinking part of their brain, which also I think is part of being able to tolerate discomfort ⁓ and building tolerance to that these things we can't as divorce coaches make tolerable, right? So why does regulation matter so much and how within our scope of work that we do as divorce coaches, Right? Distinguish regulation from simply being calm or agreeable or composed. Michelle Browning: Great questions. I want to make a distinction because the way in which emotion regulation is presented in divorce coaching actually comes from dialectical behavior therapy. So it's this idea that we do things to distract or to dampen down the intensity of our emotions just so we can get through a crisis moment and not cause more harm. So that's the idea around ⁓ emotion regulation. Nervous system regulation is a very different ⁓ thing. the we they nervous system regulation actually is the foundation of emotional regulation. But emotion regulation assumes that we have access to higher brain functions and we can actually do something cognitive to shift our emotional state. It's a big assumption when we're under chronic and acute stress. It's a big assumption. nervous system regulation is about flexibility, Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Michelle Browning: and responsiveness. It's not about damping down an emotion or making it, you know, like smoothing out the edges of it. It's actually going into the emotion, being in it, allowing ourselves to feel the edges of our capacity to be with it and noticing if we can just stay a second or two longer. Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Michelle Browning: That's what distress tolerance actually is. It's not, it's not so, so. Tracy Callahan: Not be able to stay there. Michelle Browning: That's right. Staying there without judgment, without ⁓ adding more material or story on top of, I'm feeling this, it's just feeling it. And the longer we can stay with it without popping right back up into thought and story, the more capacity grows to actually feel into it and Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Michelle Browning: just accept that right now this is what's Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I think it is especially so important in conflict, right? they create stress, tension, contraction, defensiveness, right? All of that stuff. And it's not whether those reactions will happen, right? The question is, the client can begin to notice them and to start to tolerate them, not to erase them, not to distract them, but to sit with them to be able Michelle Browning: and No, they're all pardoned. Tracy Callahan: to work with them and make those decisions. Michelle Browning: That's right. Staying with them long enough that we get curious about what they're here to show us. So anger is here to show me what, what does it want me to do? Anger is always about moving towards something. It's always about something is not fair or right about this. And there's information in that feeling that if we sit with it long enough, Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Michelle Browning: we can be directed by it. That's autonomy is. That's what agency is. So again, nervous system regulation is about flexibility and about responsiveness. It's about having the capacity to be in our, like from my perspective, we're all animals, right? So we have access to the meekest, most prey. reflexes in us and also the most ferocious, protective, and defended part of us as well. We need access to all of that human experience and when we shut down either, we become blunted and we're just going through the motions instead of having an authentic experience. Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. So we've talked about so many, so many big concepts, and we could probably spend hours and hours talking about all of this, right? How, how we as professionals show up, how we, you know, are aware of our own processes, our ability to create awareness around that and being grounded for clients to borrow that why this all happens. If we were to sort of ⁓ look at this bigger picture question, right? If there's one thing you can shift about the way people approach helping others through divorce, what would that be? Michelle Browning: My dream is that we would focus the majority of our training of divorce coaches on this ⁓ beingness, tracking their own activation, tolerating intensity, staying present with difficult emotions, and continuing to develop growing our own capacity for that because that's the work and when we do it, and our clients feel into that and give themselves permission to do it as well. The logistical stuff is easy. It all is so easy. And I'm not making light of divorce. There's a lot to get done and there's a lot to ⁓ dredge through. But it becomes so much easier when we can be with the emotion that's present instead of trying to push past it. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, so I can't thank you enough for this conversation. Before we kind of move into closing, I know you started with a beautiful story and wanted to sort of anchor the end of our conversation on the story. So I'm going to turn that over to you. Michelle Browning: Thank you. So we'll go back to the story of the boy and the butterfly part two. A young boy came across a butterfly chrysalis and brought it into his house. He sat quietly watching for hours as the insect struggled to break from its confinement. It managed to create a small hole, but its body was too large to emerge and it tired and became still. The boy witnessed the butterfly's distress. He felt a tightening in his chest, a quickening in his heart rate, and an urgent, restless push of energy mobilizing him to do something. The boy paused. He noticed the intense discomfort, and he placed his hands over his heart. He took an intentional breath, sending support to his racing heart. and he pressed his feet firmly into the floor and leaned back against his chair, anchoring himself into the back of his body. He took a long extended exhale and noticed still an urge to push. This time he pushed his hands against his seat slowly and as hard as he felt the urge to. He stayed close, he bladed, and he watched. He allowed himself to feel the discomfort of the stillness without trying to alter it. He honored the boundary between his own body and the butterfly's experience, granting the insect the dignity of its own process. After a long rest, the butterfly stirred again. Armed with the strength gathered during the pause, it began to push against the walls of the chrysalis and with renewed force, the butterfly emerged with its wings outstretched. It flew across the room and out through the open window. Tracy Callahan: Yay, butterfly. Michelle, I seriously I could do this all day long, right? I think there's that hopefully our listeners are taking away things I'm taking away, right? That this shift from correction to capacity, ask something deeper of us as divorce coaches. It takes us to stop treating distress as a problem to immediately extinguish. Michelle Browning: you Thank Tracy Callahan: Right. And I think that story exemplified that so beautifully. It is also asking us to assume that the fastest path to release relief is always the most effective path forward. And I think as divorce coaches, we can recognize that in our own work, in our own space. Right. When people are in the middle of these big, profound relational financial parental identity disruptions, they're not broken, right? They may be just evidence that they're overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as divorce coaches, our role is really to not overpower that with advice, strategy, positivity or pressure. It's to help create the conditions where the client can begin to access choice. Michelle Browning: Yeah, we can feel broken, but we're not. Tracy Callahan: again. And that's a really different orientation. And I want to thank you so much for bringing that to our attention. And for all of you who are listening, I hope this conversation gives you some meaningful pause around the way we think about helping, especially in divorce coaching, because this work is not simply about what we know, it's about how we, we as professionals show up. and it's about whether we can stay grounded when clients are activated and to support them. Michelle, thank you. Michelle Browning: Thank you, Casey. Thanks for inviting me and having me. Can't wait till next time. Tracy Callahan: All right, I want to thank you all for listening and hope you join us again. And ensure that you don't forget, don't forget to hit subscribe. And again, until next time.