Latest / Monero Talk / ShopInBit and the Monero Circular Economy w/ Lando Rothbardian | Epi #300

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ShopInBit and the Monero Circular Economy w/ Lando Rothbardian | Epi #300 · Monero Talk

• Doug All right, Lando, what's going on, man? Lando Hi, Douglas. I'm fine. Thanks for inviting me. I'm super excited in general, because I think this is my first Monero podcast that I'm a peon. So I'm interested, what's the differences between a Monero and a Bitcoin podcast? Lando Oh, no, wait. It's kind of the second one, but the other one was more focused on anarcho -capitalism. OK. So it doesn't really count. Doug Who's was that? Was that, who's podcast was that? Lando Uh, oh no, I'm blanking on the name. I'm blanking on your name. What's Alex? Alex at Arca? Yes, it was Alex. Doug said an archo capitalists. It must be Alex and Arga. Lando Sorry, Alex. I love you, man. But I just blanked out. I'm getting old. Yeah. Doug He's awesome. I love that guy. Yeah, yeah. When did you do that? Was that a long time ago or was that recently? Lando I would say 2021 -ish. Okay, that's a while ago. Yeah, that's a while ago. Lots has changed. Doug So how did you meet Alex and are you in that? Obviously you're in the crypto realm, but you're over in Europe, right? I mean, I guess I don't know how detailed you want to be, but I guess so he's kind of in your social network in terms of crypto people over there. Lando Yeah, exactly. So I'm originally from Germany, and there you start learning all the German community members of the whole crypto sphere. And I didn't met Alex in person, but we shared, well, as you can see in my name, like there is no more Encap that you can go, I guess, in terms of nicknames. Lando But so Alex and I, we were just, I think, regularly chatting either on Telegram or Twitter or whatever. And he saw me on some other podcasts, and then he wanted to talk to me about like, what's it like being Encap and an entrepreneur in Europe? Lando Oh my God, yeah, like, because, yeah, because Europe is like a different type of beast. I had this conversation with an American friend a while ago, and he explained to me how the whole credit card system works in the US for companies. Lando And I was like, yeah, so you're playing Kirby, and we're over here doing Dark Souls, because like, it's so complicated. I hate you, but sorry, I'm digressing. You have to cut me off because I'll start talking about topics for 20 minutes, non -stop. Lando No worries, man. Doug It's a podcast, right? They want to hear from you. They don't want to hear from me. So, so the Rothbardian thing is now were you an ad cap before you discovered crypto or was like crypto your way towards becoming an ad cap? Lando No, I was actually first, and then found love in a hopeless place. Lando No, it's so in 2010, 29 ish, I discovered Austrian economics through the Mises Institute. Oh, well, that was actually the second stage. The first stage was Stefan Molyneux podcast that I was listening to. Lando Somehow I stumbled upon it and, oh wait, was it? I'm not 100% sure. No, no, okay, now I got it. So first Mises, then Bitcoin through Stefan Molyneux, and then, yeah, I was crypto and Bitcoin, and now it's actually only Bitcoin and Monero, that's the only two things that I'm interested in. Lando So I started, yeah, yeah, yeah, no fucking around with debt lag. Yeah, so don't come at me with your dogey or litecoin or whatever, it's just Bitcoin on Monero, the rest, I, sorry, sorry, Bruce, I don't care. Lando It's that simple. But no, I started with the Mises Institute, I learned a lot about Austrian economics, and my problem for Austrian economics, and especially in our capitalism was that the solution seemed always to be like, okay, we need the gold standard back, right? Lando And I always had, and I was always thinking, okay, so we do the same that didn't work in the past again, that's like a non solution, right? And then in 2011, I stumbled over Bitcoin for Stefan Molyneux, and then I read the Bitcoin White Paper, and I was like, oh, shit, that's actually the solution for the gold standard problem, right? Lando So I was hooked there, but before someone thinks I can just straight up buy out Jeff Bezos out of his company, no, unfortunately not, because I was very young and stupid. So I spent most of my coin on pretty ladies and expensive dinner dates. Lando So you get the point. Doug One life to live, right? It's at the other day, at the other day, it's money, right? It's like, you know? Lando I was the king like it was also but in hindsight is always 2020 I guess but yeah so very cool I call it I call it tuition money Doug So you were literally at the right place right time and you were becoming an ad cap at the moment like Bitcoin was essentially being invented, right? So you're right place right time. That's beautiful. Doug So in the early days, I mean, I guess right away, you kind of got it right away. You saw because of where you were coming from with your ad cap background understanding when you saw Bitcoin, you knew right away, like this is what we need. Doug This is it. This is decentralized money. This is digital gold. Lando Yeah, that was like, okay, so you can of course fight the state through legislation like we laid us currently in Argentina, but we will see how effective that will be. But the past showed us that legislation changes didn't really do a lot. Lando So, but with Bitcoin, you can just circumvent it. And the same applies to Monero, I guess, as well, especially after the Binance De -listing, I think it's a very interesting, very interesting development. Doug That's my second question. So what was your pathway to Monero then? Was it just a realization of Bitcoin lacking privacy? Lando No, not really actually That's that's we have to fast forward to like how I didn't really introduce myself So because then the next part will not make a lot of sense So I'm Landor of body and I'm the CEO of ShopInBits .com and we are Europe's biggest Bitcoin and Monero store with over one million products that we offer so it's everything from toothpaste to the newest iPhone and We also do other stuff through our concierge service that you can go get anything from I don't know a car like a Lamborghini or Some other cars to an airplane and everything in between like we did some basic Funny stuff in the days and we also have a travel agency So if you have Monero and want to travel with more convenience I have to put a big asterisk on the privacy because traveling in privacy is very difficult and mostly legal But if you want to have the best experience, that's the same as well. Lando So that's enough with the shameless block. So no Doug We'll get to that in much greater detail. Don't worry, I was going to get there. Don't worry, I was going to get there. I know it was a little weird. I didn't intro you yet, but I was going to get there. Doug No problem. No problem. No problem. It's over. Lando How did I get into Monero? So when we started in, or actually back then it was only me. So in 2019, I guess, in the middle of the year, one of our customers wrote me, hey, why don't you accept Monero? Lando And I was like, okay, well, back then we were still on WordPress and I was like, okay, I've heard of Monero, like the privacy coin, everyone knows Monero as the privacy coin, the privacy coin, right? Lando It was like, yeah, I don't know, I haven't used it that much back then. And yeah, so I implemented it and it turned out that Monero customers are like, yeah, there are only two coins that are always being used for paying or buying stuff. Lando And that's Bitcoin and Monero. And there's no third place because third place is fiat money. That's the experience that I have. So that was like the gateway drug, I guess, for Monero to come into the play for me personally as well. Lando So, but yeah. Doug you were you were open to it at that time or you were like, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm a Bitcoin maxi at this point in my life. I don't know. This is a, this is a shit coin or you're like, you had respect from, from day one. Lando Back then I was actually still shit -coining pretty hard. So like with Dash and Bitcoin Cash and Litecoin and stuff. And that's changed over the years because what I saw was that the other coins, apart from when they were Bitcoin, they were only coming to drop or dump their coins when it goes up. Lando It's not, they like, it's, there's nothing recurring. Now, let's say no purchase of value in the longterm sense, like longterm customer relationships. You just saw it was always okay. Like Bitcoin Cash, for example, just went up one time and you see, okay, the orders go up with Bitcoin Cash and then they dropped to zero. Lando Like the next week, like there's nothing stable, but Monero has been consistent on second place for like, I think now three, four years. So that's why I have respect for Monero. I think all other coins are shit coins, but for Monero has a special place in my heart because I see that people are actually using it and I see the Monero community. Lando And even when I go to Bitcoin conference, Monero people come up to me and I'm like, oh, okay, you jeopardize your Opssec. I very flattered that you show up. And like seriously, like other Bitcoin Maxis, they will hate on Monero all the time, but at the same time, shit liquid, so fuck you, I guess. Lando So there's like, when I see what the Monero customers have done for our business, I got nothing but love to share. And one of your editors actually tested our concierge service like in 2020 or something and put it on the Monero post Monero, what is it called, subreddit? Lando Yeah. Yeah, I'm not so advanced in Reddit terms, but yeah. And we always get like the best privacy tips from the Monero community because like we had in our shop system one time, one plug -in wanted to use Google phones, right? Lando And we have eradicated Google phones from our website, but this plug -in introduced it back again and then we got a PTP encrypted email from a customer and like, yo man, you need to stop that shit with Google phones because I want to spend my Monero here. Lando And I like, ah, shit, where? And then you sent me the code where it appeared and then we could isolate it and then have it removed from the website again. And that's why, like it's a good match. Yeah. Doug So he wanted you to remove Google, what was it that he wanted? Who the fonts? Okay, but what was his request? Lando to remove the Google fonts or else you won't use the website. And I was like, yeah, yeah, because no, Google doesn't need to have your data. So fuck you, Google. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm personally, I'm a privacy nerd. Lando So as the, as a short explanation, why this is important to me, because I, I fucking hate online shopping and regular stores with cookies here, trackers there. And then it follows you around on every fucking web page. Lando You go that also has Google ads integrated. And then like, like, like best example is when you try to get something for your wife, right? You want to surprise her with, I don't know, a little necklace or something for the anniversary, right? Lando And then you type it in to her. Yeah. So it either pops up on the credit card or if you just search on it on the internet, it appears for everyone in the whole network and the whole house. Oh yeah. This is a nice necklace. Lando I'm like, fuck it. Shit. I want to have a surprise, but no. And this is like, this is like the baby's little steps of privacy problems. Right. This is like, like the easy part, right? It's just advertising, but the other parts, I don't know. Lando Yes. So between 2020 and 2022, very bad things happened. And I don't trust anyone with my data anymore. Speaker 3 Yeah. Doug I assume you're referring to the sniffles. Yes. Yes. Speaker 3 Ha ha. Doug Which I have right now, which I have right now. I think I must have COVID again. Probably. Speaker 3 Yeah. Doug So where does that leave you then with Bitcoin? So obviously you understand the importance of privacy, especially with regards to money. How does that affect your view of Bitcoin, given that it is ultimately a transparent ledger? Doug You can track and trace transactions. What's your thinking there? Lando I think without getting technical because I'm no technical guy, so please don't ask me that. I think I heard your talk with no power. I think he's like two galaxies away from my type of knowledge of technical aspects. Lando So I could like answer only the most basic shit. But I personally have almost no privacy anymore because that's the funny thing, right? If you want to be the CEO of a privacy company, you cannot have privacy. Lando Like no one can. Doug No one, no one will send you. Give me, with my Monaro show. Hey, hey, hey, hello world. I know. Lando Yes, but the people need to have a reference point on whether they can trust you or not. And although there are some, I guess, conceptual -wise models for how to build a reputation with avatars and stuff, we're just human beings. Lando And I don't know, I need to see a face or something, right? So from that point of view, I'm very transparent and as the risk in quotation marks, right? But in general, yeah, Bitcoin is kind of difficult when it comes to privacy. Lando So my approach in general would be to just, yeah, sorry, guys, but I hodl only Bitcoin and use monorefo transactions when it's convenient. And I try to use it more, but it's same as with Bitcoin Lightning, right? Lando I can use it and I could say, OK, yeah, I go to my old store, but that is kind of idiotic. But we are planning to go to MoneroCon, so there will be a... Yeah, I will be shopping. Yes, I think the guys from MoneroCon don't know it yet, that we'll be coming. Lando Awesome. It's absolutely very cool. Doug excited to have you. Lando Yeah, we will be there. So this is a surprise, motherfucker. Yeah, we will be there. I will be bringing my wallet and I hope to see our entrepreneurs showing up and trying to sell me some stuff because I'm in a buying mood. Lando And I always like to give back to the community, actually do the hard work of selling stuff in this ultra free market. Doug Yeah, you're like, you know, yeah, you're, you're a major utility, right? You're providing an avenue for people to offload their crypto and actually use it. Lando They don't upload their crypto to me. That's the like, we don't have to go to these black rock number go up guys talk. They're not uploading their coins. They are using their coins to purchase things. Lando Yeah. Exactly that they find more valuable at the moment. So it's their own free choice to spend the coins. It's not like sometimes these Twitter discussions go out of hand and they're like, yeah, everyone who's want to sell you something for your Bitcoin or when there is a scammer and yada, yada, yada. Lando It's, I don't know. I've never heard such a bullshit argument, but because like if you're broke, right? Then of course you're not supposed to sell or spend your coins because you have no fucking savings. Lando Like personal finance one -on -one. If you have no finance bro, you need to change something about that. So like build up savings, but at one point, right? You have enough savings and then you want to live life, right? Lando But you really want to go back to the fiat life, pull out the credit card, spend dollars and your data at the same time for everything you do, or do you really want to have like a free society, right? Lando Do you want to have private transactions and money that doesn't lose value all the time? So like that's like my personal angle. So, and if you're still only getting paid in fiat, then you might need to change something about that too. Lando If like, if you really want to go all in into the whole circular economy, right? Then you should just, you should try it. You should try that. That's what I meant with I want to give back to the community. Lando I know it's how hard it is to sell stuff for Bitcoin or Monero because with regular fiat customers, right? They buy shit out of an impulse. Like you can sell the stupidest shit. Yeah, I was saying you just have to go to Amazon and check out what type of products are best sellers and stuff and you see so much plastic shit left, plastic shit right. Lando And like for me personally, but for some people it might have value, but most of these purchases are not even conscious purchases. And you can see that by the return rates of Amazon and Amazon has like 25% return rate. Lando So that means every fourth order just gets sent back. Like this is, you can talk, yes, it's totally ridiculous. So they're all talking about environment this and saving the planet, but they incentivize idiotic spending of things that people really don't need or else they wouldn't send it back every fourth time. Lando They order something. This is totally bonkers, right? And you have the same, or you have the exactly opposite with Monero users and Bitcoin users. We're like industry leading when it comes to return rates. Lando We have less than 1% per year return rates. So I personally know all the cases of the returns and we've been online for five years. I know every single case of them because they're like, I could count them on one hand almost or two, right? Lando So it's infinitesimally small number because people make conscious spending decisions and they don't buy stuff to- Doug like like worthless fiat they treated like valuable valuable money Lando Yes, and it's way better for me as well because dealing with returns means you can almost certainly make a loss on the product because you cannot set that full price anymore. Right? So that's why Amazon just drops us into a landfill. Lando Just most of the returns, the smaller ones, they just get thrown into landfill. It's ridiculous. Like you kind of on the other hand, you just fill up landfills with stuff that people just took a look at it, right? Lando Put it out of the box, took a look at it, put it back in the box and send it back. Like, no. It's like... Crazy. Sorry, I'm starting to rant again. Doug It's a very good point, right? Cause all of that, Lando Oh, money printer. Speaker 3 Thank you. Doug Sorry, uh, Sunita's making her coffee. Um, yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a good point. Uh, I mean, all that potentially goes away in the future, right? In, uh, in a Bitcoin Monero world, uh, everybody, everybody's using the, these hard currencies. Doug Um, and all those other things that come with, with fiat start to start to go away. Um, I do want to stick a little bit more on the topic though. So, so how privately could people, can people use your service? Doug Um, I mean, to what degree, right? Cause I mean, ideally, ideally they could, they'd want to go and I won't say offload. They'd want to go spend their Bitcoin or Monero anonymously, right? Lando Yeah, so what I have to say, of course, is that you cannot spend your coin anonymously. We offer privacy. So what we do is that you don't need a customer account when you shop in our store, but you, of course, have to provide a shipping address. Lando And what we do is that we only print the billing address on the invoice if it's in the same country. So if you have different countries, then we have to put on the shipping address on the invoice as well. Lando But in general, that's only the case for business users, but for private users, it's mostly the same. We support almost all postbox services, et cetera. So most of our customers have used them before. Lando If you're unsure, you can always just write the concierge service and ask if that's working out before buying something, but in general, you can just use that or be smart about it and use other tricks that I cannot publicly discuss. Lando You have to find them out yourselves. Doug Okay? Lando So, but what we do with the customer data is after shipping it out, we pseudonymized the personal data after 40 days. So, like out of Douglas Tumen, it turns into Zatoshi Nakamoto or some other gibberish, right? Lando And then the address gets changed, et cetera, the email address and whatever. And you can also use a simple login, for example, for your emails. We don't have a filter on that. So actually most of our newsletter consists of simple login, email address, which is pretty cool. Lando So thanks guys. Doug But you're saying people don't even need to create an account, right? Like, just, yeah. Lando totally optional. You can. if you want to like. So I could just. Doug just go to ShopInBit, find something I want, go to check out and then just put in basically an address I want it to be sent to. Exactly. With a name. A name. Lando Exactly. Doug Okay. Lando And yeah, so we like, and you can check the code yourself. Like I can explain to you. Like I explained, I don't like trackers and stuff. You can, when you go to shoppingbit .com, you can see there's nothing. Lando There's, we have zero type of tracking. So there's no Google analytics, no Facebook, Pixel, Instagram, whatever. They all are using, I don't know. There's so many tracker tools. Software because like, no, I just have the basic information that the server, of course, gets. Lando So if you're a little bit paranoid about your IP address getting into our logs, then just use a VPN. That's no problem. Only disclaimer I have to make. There is a bug with Brave browser, and you somehow cannot complete the payment process with it. Lando And it's a Brave bug. So if you're using, I don't know, LibreWolf or some of the other browsers, it works fine. But it's just Brave. And I don't know why. Doug Hmm. Lando Yeah, we got that feedback quite a lot. So I don't know, Brave guys, what are you doing? Please. Like our terms and conditions are not a cookie tracker. You can allow it to click on it. That's the problem. Lando If you're on the checkout page and want to accept the terms and condition, the box doesn't appear because only the Brave browser blocks it. We've written to Brave, but they're not reacting to it. It's quite weird. Lando But we're not the only shop that has this problem. So it appears to be in other shops as well. But yeah. Doug And so you mentioned you are essentially only Bitcoin and Monero at this point. What kind of usage are you seeing? Well, what kind of, you know, metrics can you tell us? Lando Yeah, so we are quite regularly posting on Twitter what the usage is. So Monero was actually in November number one and actually had percentage wise more volume than Bitcoin because of these insane transaction fees. Doug thing I wanted to ask you, right? Like, we have the privacy issue with Bitcoin, but then we also have the transaction fees. It's not really built to be used for transactions compared to something like Monero. Doug So from your Rothbardian standpoint, how are you viewing those things? Obviously, the market is the market. People want to come spend their Bitcoin, you're open to it. But I mean, what's your view there as a technology with Bitcoin versus Monero in terms of being used as a tool for transacting? Lando Yeah, so ease of use, I think Monero wins, of course, because it's like you can just do it on chain. Why lightning has got better? Oh my God, yes, lightning. That's some pretty good streaks forward, like with the Phoenix wallet, that's my personal favorite that I'm using most of the time. Lando It's okay. So it's easy enough, so I can just, I don't know, give it to my post guy, like who delivers the packages and tell him, hey, you want to have some Bitcoin? Sure, yeah, whatever, send it. But with Monero, it's easier, I can just like load up wallet, but I'm not explaining two coins in a five minute conversation. Lando So I'm just doing the Bitcoin part, but from a business perspective, it's pretty funny because usually I don't get asked a lot that question about the transaction fees and how it affects our business. Lando And I can say it affects it only a little bit because Bitcoiners and also Monero customers, they bundle their purchases. So people are not coming to shop in bits to buy the toothpaste alone. They're buying the toothpaste, they're buying toys for the children, they're buying lingerie for their wives and a bicycle and a TV and whatever. Lando So they have pretty big orders in one chunk. And then they just send max fee, like they don't give a damn. That's like, seriously, like there's no, I've seen people spend 50 sets per V buy it. I've seen people spend 600 sets per V buy it, no sweat. Lando Always max fee because they just want to have it done and ready. So this could be a bigger problem in non -industry countries, like outside of Europe. Like I can imagine Asia and Africa is a way different field and that there are more low transaction fee solutions needed. Lando But for the US and Europe and I don't know, maybe Japan and China, no, I don't think that's a big, but I cannot speak for outside of EU, but for my personal experience is no one cares. It's a true point like if you're starting on. Doug Indications are there, right? Like you said in November you saw Monero overtake For that exact reason, right? Spend 20 bucks to send, you know It was almost 50 $1 ,000 worth of stuff Lando It's more in the like, I don't know, 50 cents to three, four, five euro range. And then people just say that, fuck it, right? It's like PayPal feed, I guess. But for PayPal, we actually charge extra. Lando So it's cheaper. Doug Oh, you do people can use PayPal if they want? Yes, of course, of course it's Lando We tried without and the problem is that the algorithms of the search engines found out that it's probably not a good idea to feature websites that don't have paper at all or any type of regular payments. Lando So your Zio gets turned down and I think we made like, yeah, it was quite the impact that had on our marketing just to put paper back on the page. Doug Wow, that's interesting. Lando Yeah, I didn't thought it was that big of a problem, but I could also tell you some stories about doing Google advertising as a crypto company, but that's a topic for another day. But coming back to the transactions, when the transactions piece, yes, you're totally right. Lando Like there is a sweet spot where people don't care for their transaction costs on Bitcoin, but that has been breached a couple of times. So it will be interesting to see what solutions might come up with, especially with the competition from Monero coming as a means of exchange. Lando So because I think as soon as this, I've heard some, I got sent some messages a couple of last days because I was wondering why Monero was dropping off so hard, just because Binance deal is, I mean, like who the fuck uses Binance? Lando I still don't understand why people use Binance, like seriously, especially for Monero. Thank you. Doug large exchange, but yeah, I have a lot of people apparently using it. Lando whatever, like, like, if you're looking for a scammy, then you have to Sorry, I personally, I'm not a fan of finance, but Doug I don't use any exchange, but yeah. Lando So there was this, I don't know, let's call it conspiracy theory that that's Binance is somehow selling fake Monero's or something like that. And since Monero gets deal listed on the 20th, I'm very interested to see what will happen with Monero. Lando But we saw that already has recouped much of the price losses of the last week. So, is it okay? I guess. So, yeah, it's very exciting. Doug Maybe a nothing burger, right? Cause like the news already happened, right? Everybody already panicked and who knows, who knows? But so where do you see, you've been in crypto for a very long time. You came there with the right mentality, right? Doug So from day one, you're an ad cap guy, so you really understood this stuff, the importance of it. You also intimately work in the field, creating a way for people to actually use crypto. So you understand this stuff really well. Doug Where do you see things going then in terms of like Bitcoin, Monero, Lightning Network, and the tools that people end up using in the future for transacting. How do you see this stuff playing out? Or too soon to tell, but given what you know today, I mean, where do you see things headed? Lando I think the time of bullshit narratives will come to an end because I think people don't have that much time left anymore to just go, okay, yeah, the next big blockchain and the other bullshit term that gets thrown around like in the 2017 hype, right? Lando Where all the ICOs popped up and like 2021 where you have the NFTs. And I think the big playing field in the near future will be how easy can you use the coins in your day -to -day life, right? Whether it's Bitcoin or Monero doesn't make a difference. Lando It's just about like how easy can you live your daily life with it? And as soon as that expands into broader terms, like we will shop in bits, we'll buy quite a lot of products but there will always be products that we cannot offer. Lando Like for example, if you want to buy meat, for example, it makes more sense to buy it from your farmer next door, right, or close by to you, right? And I think the coin that can build its own circular economy the fastest will have the easiest path going into the future. Lando Like because with the rampant inflation, government overreach and all that other stuff that governments does. So it will really, I personally think it will depend on that. So is other wallets easy to use? Lando Like can you get your grandma to use a Monero wallet or use a Bitcoin wallet? And they are already, I personally think Monero has a lack up because there's no second layer extra explanation stuff because you can just say, okay, yeah, here, use this wallet or you can just, I don't know, use Samurai wallet, I think is kind of a Monero wallet now as well, I guess. Doug They have atomic swaps, but I don't think you could hold Monero natively out. Ah, okay. I thought you could. Lando also hold it on there. Doug They haven't gone that far yet. We really have to go down that ramp at all. Lando I think cake is the one for the mobile, right? Is it cake wallet? Yes. So you install a cake wallet, have money around it, and then you start going, right? And with Bitcoin, you could, of course, use Phoenix wallet. Lando But then you, again, have to explain why are there extra fees for receiving a payment the first time, et cetera. So I personally think it really comes down to who can remove the friction without, like, sucking black rock cock, or I guess, and not giving into this whole shenanigans of ETF number go up guys and who can build a circular economy. Lando And I think it's a fair playing field for both, because Bitcoin has the bigger network effect, right? But as I see it from the Monero economy, it's like way more close -knit and way more within their own ranks instead of just going, OK, I can upload my coins there and then have it exchanged to fiat, and then I buy stuff with fiat. Lando And that's at least my experience that they have. But you guys, you really need to offer more legal normal stuff as well, because I sometimes have the feeling that we are the only provider of normal goods in the Monero space within Europe ads that has to change, seriously. Doug Yeah, no, there's a lot happening now. I mean, are you familiar with Monerica? That's a good resource to see. Oh, yeah. The businesses, services that accept Monero. We're starting. We're building XMR Bizarre. Doug But that's hoping to be like a peer to peer marketplace. So not like the Amazon approach, but more like the eBay. Peer to peer, right? So people can go on there. They can sell their old bicycle for Monero, that type of stuff. Doug But yeah, no, I agree. I agree. That's why I'm working on that initiative, right? I totally agree with you. We need, I think the dark market is great, or the free market, right? Seeing what's going on there, and that Monero has gained adoption there, is a great indicator that it works. Doug But now we need to also offer other means for people to use it beyond dark markets, right? Lando Yeah, exactly. So because like, it's a good, good proving point, right? If it works for dark markets, then it works for everyone. But it's pretty hard to argue like with you, if you're with your grandma and she only knows like, I don't know, the news. Lando And then it's like, yeah, Speaker 3 So didn't all the hackers use on Arrow and did they shut down the Lando hospital with a Monero ransomware and you're like, yeah, grandma, so no, I'm just telling my honey there, please try it out. It's better than the money you have under your pillow. Right. So that's what I mean with you need like positive example. Lando That's why we have like pretty strict policy, no guns, no drugs, no prostitution, nothing like we are so screwing boring. People would say boring a fucking man. I want to get what was the blackjack and hookers and make my own Amazon, right? Lando But no, no, that's that's my personal reason for I personally, of course, I don't like drugs, but you do you right? Like, I don't want to sell them. Like, there are some things I don't want to sell. And that's one of those things I don't want to say. Lando And the same is with weapons. Like, it's actually almost illegal in Europe to do it. But we a Polish company, there will be some weapons that we could sell. But I personally chose to not sell any weapons, because if you have some altercations with people, you have to do it mano a mano, please don't don't shoot at people. Lando I don't I don't like that. So Doug Yeah, man up. Use your hands. Come on. Exactly. Be a man. I agree. I agree with that notion. I'm all for the second amendment, but, you know, yeah, learn how to use your hands first. Why Poland? Why? Doug Why do you guys? Is that just because of where you're personally located? Or is there a reason why you started up in Poland? Lando No, we started in Germany and then switched to Poland because we saw a quite interesting increase of demand from Eastern Europe. We wanted to have our own little warehouse. Speaker 3 Mm -hmm. Lando That was feasible as a bootstrap startup. As I told you, I spent all my coins on fancy during dates. So stupid me, I guess. So Poland was in our budget to expand. So we moved to Poland and have quite a nice experience there because Poland is like from a regulatory standpoint, way, way easier. Lando That was an added bonus, right? We already had extra customers from Poland, but also the warehouse. So we could offer better services as well. And yeah, so that's why it became Poland. Yeah. Doug I love Poland. I've been there many times. Yeah. Beautiful place. So, so do you see people start? Do you see there perhaps be like Monero? Because I mean, you yourself said it, right? You're holding Bitcoin, but you try to spend Monero where it's accepted. Doug ShopInBit accepts Monero. Do you see directly directly, which is beautiful. Do you see people like Bitcoin is making the realization like, wait a minute, if I'm going to spend, maybe I should switch over to Monero, spend it as Monero. Doug Yeah, granted, Bitcoin is pseudo anonymous, but do I really want to leave a track or trace that I made a spend here? Obviously, you know, they might still figure out who you are, transaction, but still like, I mean, do you see people perhaps moving in that direction and be like, if I'm going to start spending my crypto and using it, I want to spend it like cash. Doug I don't want the whole world to know. I don't want governments to know. I don't want corporations to know. Do you see that becoming a thing? Lando Not from the user routes. I don't think so. Really? Okay. Yeah. Because I think convenience is still the key. So if you hold your network and Bitcoin and the ones who care about privacy, Ivor or have already installed Wasabi, Samurai and have Monero. Lando Like this is a setup I've heard is quite often. Like, okay, yeah. Sure. So everyone who's a privacy guy either has Wasabi or Samurai installed and uses Monero. Like there's no, but they probably won't say it publicly. Lando But I don't give a fuck. That's on the on the on the business side, on the other hand, I would say that this will be a revelation that will hit some people hard in the face because they are focusing like either only on Bitcoin or spent their time with integrating shitcoin three hundred twenty five thousand and then find out, oh, yeah, they're coming to upload your coins, but they don't have the positive effect of the community like using your service all the time. Lando But with Monero in comparison to the other coins, you have a real community that they will come to you. They will support you. They will send you emails with Google funds and and also recommend you to their friends. Lando Right. And that's that's the two big things about Bitcoin and Monero is that you get the communities with them and they are real communities. They are not fake, propped up, ape, NFT communities that only exist to wash money. Lando No, they're actually there to use the coin. And that's like. That's the angle that our businesses will realize after trying out all the shitcoins or doing the as I like to call it the fake Bitcoin only. Lando There's like there are some lapers I today writing again. I'm sorry, but. But there's there's one thing that gets me like super angry. And that's people who are acting like they're Bitcoin only and then put credit card, paypal, MX and shit on the website and say, yeah, yeah, we're only Bitcoin only. Lando No, bro. Bitcoin only means you only accept Bitcoin. No fiat, no liquid, no, our shit, just Bitcoin and lightning. And that's it. But they're like, I think a handful of people who are actually that level of Bitcoin only. Lando And it's kind of larpy to me because if you like from business perspective, you could say, OK, I don't like Monero that much, but I can use it as a fiat alternative. And then it's still better than paypal and go because you a don't pay the ridiculous 3% or 4% fees to pay to paypal, have no charge backs. Lando And people can use it and it's private. Well, it's actually quite nice. So you could see like it's I think this is will be a change in the near future for other store owners or sellers or entrepreneurs that they will say, yeah, Bitcoin and Monero, because Lando said Bitcoin and Monero are the only two coins that you need to care about. Lando And that's an easy choice to make. But if you have like this plethora of coins and no, this this will not happen. But from the user side, the user is always doing the things most important to them. And unfortunately, for most crypto users in general, privacy is not a concern. Lando Like we as privacy nerds, we will go to Monero. We will use all the privacy tools for Bitcoin as well. But if you just like, I don't know, John Doe and just trying to buy some, I don't know, some honey from your neighbor. Lando You are using what you have, right? And that can be Bitcoin or that can be Monero. Contact first. Doug Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I do think it goes beyond just privacy nerds. So I mean, I think it's people that would, the same type of people that would want to spend cash in the real world, right? Doug Yeah. You know, and you don't have to be a privacy nerd to want to see the value in cash, right? I think cash is king, right? Yeah. It's because people know that they could spend it. Nobody knows. The government doesn't know they spent it. Doug I think that's a meme that's kind of universal out there. Yeah, yeah. It's the same. Lando same saying in Europe as well. So Kassus King. Doug So when do we see that transition to the cash is king in the digital world and people are like, you know what? If I'm spending money, I'm spending untraceable cash, right? It's like, why would I spend anything else? Doug But you don't see that becoming kind of a thing that people, especially big coiners, right? Because they're all constantly talking about these ideas. So it seems like they understand it. But at the end of the day, they're just like, it's just easier to send the Bitcoin transaction because I already have the Bitcoin. Lando Yes, and I think for the general public, I guess it will only be interesting when it's probably too late, when the CVDCs will come. So then people will ask, okay, like I want to have my cash transactions back. Lando On the U -front, it's actually quite a good thing that the that Brussels is so incompetent that they cannot build any computer system that doesn't get hacked within three months or something. So there's a good chance that the CVDCs will never see the day of light because they just hire incompetent people to do that. Lando So I think it will take a little bit longer until people realize that Monero and Bitcoin could be the cash equivalent of the digital world. And then it only depends on what's easier to use, like cash, like because cash doesn't need any explanations, it's so easy to use, absolutely ubiquitous. Lando But both Monero and Bitcoin, you still have to install one app. And that's already a hurdle that you have to take because you have to be some type of technical. And then the next hurdle will be how easy is it to use the coin? Lando And my personal feeling is that currently to spend your coins privately like cash, it's easier to just use Monero. That's my personal viewpoint. So Bitcoin has to step their game up to get that handled. Lando And I don't know, there are so many technical solutions. I'm running a business, I have no time to check all the new proposals and bips and whatever what people would try to do. I was hoping that Lightning would pick up a little bit faster, but Lightning currently is now in a pretty good usable state with these wallets, but running it on your own nodes. Lando That's not as easy. That's not as easy as opening up your on -chain wallet and then just sending coins, right? So I think Wasabi does a great job as well for mixing your coins. But then again, you have to explain to people, what, why do we have to mix like I don't understand? Lando And then it's like that's the extra. People misunderstands that you have like unlimited capacity to make decisions or given per day. So there's this, I think, phenomenon called decision fatigue. So if you're like, you don't have to be like a big CEO or something to have decision fatigue. Lando It already is enough if you're like a nurse and have to do decisions all day, and then you come home and then you just want to spend your money on something, right? And then decision fatigue kicks in and will let you choose the one which is the most convenient because you don't care at this point of the day. Lando You have, you're like, I don't know, I don't know how long nurses work too long. 14 hours shift, right? You just came back from a 14 hour shift. And then you have to go out with people threw up on your shoes and someone tried to stab someone with a, I don't know, with something, right? Lando And then you come home and just want, I don't know, order something or want to get a pizza or go out with your girls, right? And then you have to first do privacy enhancing options first or you have to dive into that topic to learn it or just use it. Lando And that's like the point where I see and when they were currently has the lag up, is you just open up your app and you pay it like, that's the American Venmo as a call it or something. So it's super easy to, yeah, yeah, right? Lando So that's like the point I see there. So ease of use will be king and who can build the circular economy the fastest will probably win. Or if there's type of to win, right? Because as an MCAP, I say, yeah, so competition between currencies. Lando So there will always be multiple currencies. Like there is no monophobic world view. There cannot be only one coin. This is not Highlander. There will always be other coins and everyone will compete against each other. Lando And that keeps people in check because even in the Bitcoin economy or the Bitcoin community, you have some developers who are like, yeah, so there's a little bit more, let's call it edgy. realm of living their life, I guess. Lando And I do not agree with what some of these people say. And I find it kind of appalling, if you like. I have one personal gripe with someone, but I will not repeat it. But it's not, it's about using credit cards instead of Bitcoin. Lando And I was so furious when I read that. But that's the point, right? They are also people there. But they need to be kept in check. And that's what I see in other coins doing as well. But personally, I only see it in Monero because the other coins, like just maybe USDT, but USDT is just fiat, but digital. Lando And yeah, whatever. Right? But yeah, that's like Doug So what do you then think about, I mean, we kind of glossed over this. So, but what do you think about the delistings, right? So obviously, fundamentally, great thing, right? So it's forcing people to obtain their Monero in the best way possible without KYC, using decentralized exchanges, or even just acquiring it by accepting it for a service or a good that you're selling, right? Doug So it's pushing people towards the ideal, but at the same time, it's also, I mean, you're a usability guy, you understand, people are lazy, the market is what it is. Is that, how do you see that playing into Monero achieving this circular economy and achieving the liquidity it needs to function as good money? Lando I think the delisting is like, what was it? The Streisand, Barbara Streisand effect. It's like the most idiotic move governments could have made to delist it because you can, like you asked me about our usage of coins, right? Lando So we have about, I think currently we are at 70% crypto payments and Monero is, I think about 40% and Bitcoin is like 45 and the rest is for lightning and yeah, yeah, it's for lightning, right? So it's pretty high already. Lando And with Monero, you can already see that it's actually being used in the real world because you have the free free markets, right? And it's been on the map for quite a while and now it has this big resurgence through this extra free marketing of, hey, Monero has been delisted because it's a privacy coin and everyone who has like two brain cells understands, okay, if they are delisting it because it's a privacy coin, there might be something to that privacy that I can use for myself. Lando So, and the, for Monero, it's not, I think not that big of a problem to get delisted because there is already a circular economy growing, right? And it's, because for a circular economy to work, you don't need centralized exchanges because people go to centralized exchanges if they have no one in their vicinity to explain to them how it works. Lando But as the circular economy grows, people will get sucked into this ecosystem directly in the right way. So they will go to a meetup, they will exchange their cash for Monero, for example, and then start spending it at their neighbors and or sending it to their relatives all over the world, et cetera. Lando So I think the delisting is probably the blessing in disguise that Monero needed to become even a bigger coin in general, that's my personal feeling on that. I cannot hear you, you're still muted. Doug Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I'm sneezing over here. No problem. I feel the same way. But I thought maybe your opinion would be a little different, given that you're very much tapped into usability and the need for people to be able to do things easily. Doug But yeah, no, I completely agree with you there. Lando I'm still, yeah, the usability will be problematic for mainstream appearance appeal, but I believe in people, right? So if there's like, you only need like one person to start something, to make a big change in for Monero or for Bitcoin or for humanity at all, right? Lando There's no, you don't need like hundreds, thousands of people, you just need someone who has an idea and execute zone, right? So because like when I started with Shepid, like I had a couple of thousand products or something like, I don't know, two thousand products, it was, right? Lando And now five years later, I'm here talking to you, like you heard of me and we're like a couple of thousand kilometers away and we have made so much positive impact even for Bitcoin and probably also for Monero, for privacy in general, for the understanding of people that they can use their coin on an everyday basis and just buy regular stuff with it, right? Lando And if I was able to do it like, I have no university degree, I just, I'm just doing my thing and thought, okay, it will be neat to just use your coin to buy stuff without going to vouchers stuff and exchanges and all that stuff, no. Lando And for Monero, circular economy to succeed, you just need someone who starts something and then keeps added like a maniac. And I've met so many wonderful people in the last years since I've become a public persona, you could say with starting ShepinBits that are doing so many things for the whole crypto space. Lando And through the customers that I met that explained to me what they are doing in the space, some of them, they are not even in these discussions, they're just coming at it from a business perspective and they'll say, yeah, Bitcoin and Monero, that's like the two that we use and that's where we get our revenue from and they're using it. Lando And there are probably so many people out there that you don't see that have onboarded more people than we both combined have. And that's the power of the free market. Like you cannot see it, you cannot really understand it, but it's ridiculous. Lando Free markets provides and free markets will prevail because they are logical. It's a logical thing to do to try to improve your own situation in life. Like it's not just because someone says, yeah, okay, we need to, I don't know, what's the current spiel of environmentalist is to reduce CO2, right? Lando If you're just thinking about it, the best solution to reduce CO2 will be to just plant more trees, just plant more fucking trees. You don't have to do anything else because that's like they're bigger. Lando Like that's what trees live on, right? But they're not doing it. And the free market solution will be if someone says, okay, we have too much CO2, what do we do? The first guy will come up and say, you know what, just do more trees. Lando Like trees, man, that's my business. I just trees, I do it all day. And free markets find solutions and free markets don't exist. There are only people, like people interacting with each other. There's no free market and there is no government. Lando It's only people interacting together. And you can choose to either work together voluntarily or get out the baton and hit people on the head to get your will through, right? That's the two solutions you have, but both work by the same principle, the invisible hands in both ways. Lando So I believe in people, like if you walk around like a Monero conference or Bitcoin conference or whatever meetup, you see that there are people, they want to do something. And that's like the mini tiny fraction of what is happening all over the world because everyone is in a different state of its life and wants to have a different, I don't want to change the circumstances in other ways, right? Lando That you quite possibly, probably cannot fathom because they are so like living in a totally different state of mind, I guess, right? Because well, we're in a way similar, right? We're both living in first world countries. Lando We have working fiat environments. And we could of course just... like lean back and say, yeah, fuck it, whatever. I just used the euros, used the US dollars and live my life. But we chose not to. We chose this life. Lando We chose the honorable way of free markets, right? And try to find a solution to the woes that we have, that we have no privacy anymore when doing any fiat payments that are not cash based, overreaching control, whatever, right? Lando But there are other people on the other side of the world that have no access to any bank accounts. They have only cash. And they would like to have a solution so they cannot get robbed that they like easily. Lando So they search for a digital solution. But they don't trust governments. And then they come to Bitcoin. They come to Monero. And then they see a solution. And then they might get invested into finding out more about it. Lando Some will not. Some will just use it as a vehicle to live their life. And that's fine, too. But it just takes one person to go above the minimum of, OK, I have the coins. I'm exposed to it. But wants to go a step further and say, OK, you know what? Lando I want to build something. Because that's human civilization. It's about building stuff for the future. And one positive side effect is that the Bitcoin and Monero community seems to be getting more children. Lando So that's a good sign. Like everyone else is like, oh my god, there are no children anymore. We're declining. And that's all. What can we do? Yeah. But take a look at us, right? Bitcoin and Monero, daddy's. Lando Yeah. So we're just snapping it out, right? Speaker 3 That's funny. Lando true. Yeah, so and that's like, that's, that's, that's my point, like, people, people do shit, people fixed up, Bitcoin doesn't fix shit, Monero doesn't fix shit, people tools, it's just a tool, they give you more options, and they give you the free market option, which you don't have with fear. Lando So if you just like, if you would play my e -commerce game, the feared words, oh my god, I will probably hang myself already, because this, this is no, this is, this is a cutthroat business, where you're always in danger of getting bankrupted, because you have, you know, like, the biggest, biggest concern you have as an e -commerce store is payments, like that they work and that you receive your money. Lando And you're always at the whims of whimsical companies who are like, oh, yeah, I don't know, like, currently we have problems with PayPal, like, I can talk about that, right? So PayPal is just blocking our payments, not that are coming to us, that's payments that we send to our companies. Lando Although we have established business, like a business relationships, and they're like, yeah, so it's under scrutiny, I don't know, we're just checking it, we're not sending the money yet. And I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Lando Like, how dare you to tell me who I can send my, and then we're not talking about some shady, I don't know, Caribbean island companies where we try to send money to, no, no, we're talking about European companies, big established companies, it's not like some notion, but, but that's the day to day life. Lando And then, like, or my personal favorite is also the other way around, right? You are too successful with PayPal, they will keep your money. You have to argue to get your money back, like this, the kind of stress that can kill people that has probably killed people. Lando I'm okay, I'm over reaching out. Yeah, when you're using... Doug When you're using both, right, in a business, you really see crypto shine. I mean, we use it in our businesses. And anytime we have to use the traditional banking system to send somebody a payment, it's just like, it's agonizing, right? Doug Compared to, can you please just accept Monero or something, any crypto, and we'll just send it to you. It's just like, no questions asked. It's disgusting how difficult the traditional banking system has become. Doug Yeah. So before we close it out, tell us a little bit more about Shopin' Bit. I know you kind of glossed over some of the services. Yeah. What actually, what's the most popular thing that's sold or service that's used? Lando from the products it's iPhones. I don't know why, but people love iPhones. Doug I know you keep saying the Google phone thing, but I mean, a lot of people like to do the graphene, right? They like to. Lando They are also quite popular, but Iphone is like way level higher. Doug way bigger. Do you sell pixels or you're saying you don't because you should be selling the pixel phones? No, no, no, we Lando selling the Pixel phones because of Grafino S. And yeah, they are also quite popular, but not as much as iPhone because you asked for most popular. Okay. But right now also from our services, so we actually have three services. Lando So there's Concierge, Travel Agency and Shopping with Cars. And yeah, I think currently Concierge and Travel are the two are more used than cars because well, I think the price is not high enough right now for most people to buy a car. Lando But some, but for some it is. So that's also picking up quite the steam. The Concierge service. So really easy explanation is you tell us what you want and we organize it. So that can be anything from, I don't know, bonsai trees for your garden to a server rack or, I don't know, high end fashion or like, I think we actually paid for a funeral one time as well. Lando So that's also possible. And yeah, so it's the make a wish come true service. It's probably the easier explanation. So whatever you have in mind, and you don't want to use euros or US dollars, then we can organize it and worldwide. Lando So it doesn't matter if you're in Europe, or in the US, or in Asia, or Africa, or in Australia, we can organize all that because well, we have the the Fiat needs to organize everything. And yeah, that's that the travel agency is the other part. Lando Which is as the name explains, it's a travel agency. So you tell us where you want to go. And we organize all the travel stuff for you that can be flights, hotels, I don't know, the loss, etc. So for example, if you like, want to really go overboard, we can do that too. Lando Like we had this one customer who did like this honeymoon trip to Morocco for I think was a two or three weeks and a hundred percent. It was quite a long time and he wanted to have like luxury on the looks. Lando So they had a private villa with on premise staff and like an infinity pool. Yeah, it was like I think it was like 25k. So it was quite expensive travel. But we could do that as well. And we also can do all the travels to the conferences, be it either crypto or not. Lando Yeah, and we also do it for businesses and for private persons. So as I mentioned, wasabi, for example, is one of our corporate users of our travel agency. So we do all their company travels as well. Doug Yeah, we might hit you guys up for some travel needs. We're doing a Monero Topia, our Monero Conference in Buenos Aires in Argentina. Oh, nice. Yeah, maybe get the word out. Maybe you guys could help us with that, or that could be a service that you offer to our attendants. Doug Yeah, of course. How does it look with fees? Like if buying tickets through you versus the traditional way at the end of the day, are people effectively spending nearly the same amount? I mean, how does it end up shaking out? Lando It's quite similar. So for the product, it depends on where we can organize it, but we try to find the cheapest price. Then we just add our hours that we use to find these products, because it's a totally manual thing for the travels. Lando As I said, we are a real travel agency, so we actually get normal price. So you're paying almost, in most cases, you pay the same as if you would book it yourself, but that depends on if they are in our partner network for travel agencies. Lando Trevon Keith is our guy who does all the travel stuff. So he organizes with his team all the travels, and he comes up with the craziest stuff, sometimes and finds a really great experience. So I guess if you're looking for convenience and want to have the best experience, we travel or getting stuff, then these are a right for you. Lando If you're looking for only the cheapest way, then we cannot outcompete the big players. It's mathematically impossible. So if you're looking for a good experience, Doug you. Convenience goes a long way though, right? Especially if you got some, you know, you're looking to spend some of your some of your Monero or Bitcoin. I mean, there's a lot to be said for being able to save time as you do it. Lando Yeah, so for the travel, for example, it's quite easy. So you just say, OK, I want to go to Buranis, IRIS, and what's important to me is I want to fly business class minimum and no layovers. So I want the direct flight. Lando So make it happen. And then travel and the team would go and search for what's the best flight from your location. You can be awake, but we need a country. Or if you're like, OK, in the US, it's probably not enough. Lando Probably would be better to state your state, at least. So we can make the first preliminary searches. And then you get an answer back with all the options that you have and what we would recommend. For example, what we do not recommend are low cost carriers, because it's so ridiculous how much trouble they make the users. Lando And since we are aiming for the best experience, mostly low cost carriers don't make the cuts. But if you're like, for Buranis, IRIS, I don't think there's a low cost carrier that gets you there, so from Europe, at least. Lando So that will be that. And then you could also ask, OK, and what hotels would you recommend? And what other thing can I do while in Argentina or Buranis, IRIS, apart from Monerotopia? And then we would also like, OK, these are some of the cultural things that you should visit. Lando Or if you'd like steak, go to this restaurant. Or if you don't like me, go to this restaurant. So we can like. Doug Don't go to Argentina. Just don't go to Argentina. Yeah, don't go to Argentina. Speaker 3 I know the California. Lando No, but that's like, it's the full service. That's like, like the service thing is important to me personally. That's why our first service was called concierge because like in the hotel, you go up to the concierge and say, yeah, I have XYZ problem. Lando Where can I go? And then he tells you, and that's the same blood on the internet. So yeah, if you like convenience, but with concierge, you have a little bit more privacy, of course, but with travel again, just so our, the expectations are clear. Lando You're doing traveling and traveling as like super regulated. There is not much that you can do only if you have ridiculous type of money to spend. But then we're talking about private jets, chartering, et cetera. Lando Then it gets possible. But there are some options if you like really, really need a lot of privacy. But they cost money and it's not like we're not talking cheap. So there are some options, but that's the case by case cases. Lando So just ask for it. Doug submarine trip from Columbia to New York. Can you arrange that? Lando Probably not. But maybe I guess if you have the money for it, we can arrange it. So that's like the, all depends on how much are you willing to spend. Doug The country is really cool. So so it's just taking place in like a chat like how how's that working? Oh, you're just Lando Yeah, so it takes place in a chat if you're using it through the Wasabi Wallets, because we got integrated there through the Buy Anything button. It's inside the Wasabi Wallets, then it's a chat, but it takes about 24 to 48 hours until you get an answer because we check. Lando So when you send us a request, on the website, it's relatively easy. You go to shopinbit .com and you see Concierge Service, you click on there, then there's an explanation and a simple form. And the form just asks you the name, so what you want to be called, an email address, and which card do you want to use, and what country we should ship it to. Lando And then there's a big box in there, you can just start typing. And then you just type in what you want to have. And then our team receives it, checks, okay, you want to have, I don't know, let's say you want to have an iPhone 15 Pro Max with one terabyte, and then also a Mac book with Swahili as a keyboard, like kind of all the regular night. Lando We will have to check, A, if that is that even possible, but we also check if it's legal for us to send it to you, can we provide it fast enough, and all the other shenanigans around about it. So then we send you an offer and say, okay, yeah, this is possible, and it would cost X euros. Lando We always proclaim the price in euro or US dollars, because prices are changing, and you can then decide on, okay, if you want to buy it, you can click, you click on a special link to our shop, and then you have it again, it states, yeah, this is the product that you want to buy, press here, type in your data, and then pay it. Lando So Doug Could it be as broad as, hey, what's going on guys? I got to do some Christmas shopping this year. Or it's Valentine's Day. Looking to spend $200. Throw some options at me. Like is it like that? Is it like you guys are interacting? Lando You can use it that way, but then it takes longer because so the best way for you to get a good experience is to be as precise as possible. So with the OK for Valentine's Day, we won't make it because I don't maybe if you're in New Zealand or something, then we might still make it. Lando No, just kidding. But like for like, OK, you could say, yeah, OK, Christmas is coming up or Easter or whatever you're celebrating. Let's say Easter because Christmas was already. So you want to have some gifts for your nephews, right? Lando And then you tell us, OK, the nephews, they are there are two boys, one girl. The boys are like around 10 to 12 years old and the girl is already 16. So and I need some Easter presents and I want to spend like 500 bucks. Lando Like what do you have? And then we could then you can get recommendations by our team and they say, yeah, OK, you could get this, this and this because that's currently popular. Or maybe we ask, OK, do you know what they like more? Lando Like, do you like more sports? Do they like anime? I don't know what what kids like. I don't know what teenage girls like. Maybe like, I don't know, Taylor Swift, I guess. Yeah, so she's a big Swifty, I guess. Lando So then we say, OK, yeah, so we have there are some options like and then you will get options, even if it's that broad. But I would recommend to be a bit more precise. Like if you're just writing, yeah, I need a phone. Lando That's like. Doug Oh, now. Lando Yeah, okay. A phone that's like, we can spend 20 euros on a phone or you can spend 2000 euros on a phone. So, yeah. Doug So do you often, do you have engagements pretty often where it doesn't end in a transaction? Where it's like, somebody's like. Lando Yeah, because sometimes some options are not available or shipping costs are prohibitive. That could be as well. But sometimes we also have the other way around. We had this one case that my team told me that there was this guy from one European country and it was cheaper for him to buy it through us, ship it from Poland to his country, then buying it directly at the store that was next door. Doug Well. Lando Yeah, so that also happens. So it goes both ways, but for me, it's important to understand that. Doug What was he buying? Some like Polish product? What was he buying? No, no, he was buying just, I think it was. Kibasa or something. Lando No, no, it was an LG or some big strands. Doug Buy that in Poland and have it shipped, okay. Lando Yeah, it was like some big brand 80 inch TV. It was a ridiculous size, but yeah, it was cheaper to buy it through us than through, but that's like, that's our rare cases. Usually we are on par. So, but I had some points that I wanted to make. Lando Oh yeah, right. So when you're sending in your request, right, you always get offers. You have to then decide if you want to take it. Like there's no payment for our research beforehand. So if you do not like what we have to offer, you can just say, oh yeah, no, I don't know. Lando I don't like this or I changed my mind or the shipping cost is too prohibitive. I don't know, because sometimes there are items that are not as easily shipped, right? And so like we had this one guy who bought a harp, like a harp, full blown harp, and we had to send it to the other part of Europe, but he had the money to spend on the shipping, but the shipping cost alone was like, I think 450 euros or something. Lando So I forgot how much the harp cost, but I think it was quite expensive as well. But you get the point, right? So there is, you always have the option and we go, you could say we go into a service first and get paid afterwards, right? Lando As soon, but when you receive the offer from us, you're gonna be 100% certain that we can fulfill on it. If we cannot do it, we will just send you back. It's impossible for us to get this product, why and why? Lando Because sometimes there are companies that do not want to sell to Polish companies or companies who don't sell outside of the US or something like that. And some products cannot be easily imported and we would have to like, yeah, that makes it difficult, right? Lando But when you get an offer from us, you can be 100% certain. Okay, they can actually get it. And you also get a timeframe when you will receive it. But I would always, yeah. Doug you guys like scaling up like I mean I see you just have you have a couple of guys that are on on hand that are ready to answer a question anytime and that must be hard to like the cards to the logistics behind the concierge service must be a little difficult now Lando Yeah, so for concierge, it's relatively difficult to scale up because it's like the manual labor of love, as I like to call it. So that's what I say with, I like humans, right? People fix stuff. And that's like the service you're paying for is that we fix a specific purchasing problem you have. Lando So there is not that much scaling apart from growing the team. But since customer service is like the biggest thing for me personally, we are slowly scaling the team up because people have to be schooled. Lando Is that the right term? Yeah, I'll just call it. Trained, trained. Trained, thank you. Trained is the better term, right? So they need to be trained and explained to you and some of our newer stuff. They are not from the crypto space. Lando They have nothing to do with crypto, but they do excellent work. And then that's the good point. So I will just expand my rent. No, it's not a rent. It's a positive thing. So like, we have this new employee and they're like have no touching point with crypto. Lando They heard about cryptocurrencies and this illegal internet shit, and they maybe have seen some Netflix movie about some scam coin and yeah, right? That's their touch point. But then they come into our company. Lando And then they see, okay, flexible work times. Everything is remote. You can work from wherever the fuck you want, right? There's no restrictions. And the whole atmosphere is like, okay, like this is your field. Lando Go at it, right? We have some kind of boundaries for what you can do. But the rest is like, if you get the job done and the customer is happy, everything's fine, right? And then they see like, Doug your employees in crypto if they wish. Lando If they wish, yes, but most currently do not because they are either in jurisdictions where it's problematic because of extra taxes or they just don't want to have that associated on there. Speaker 3 It's Lando It's a regulatory thing. It really depends. Doug Are most of them like working on commission then? Is it like commission based? Lando So it's like freelancing. Okay. Yeah, so they just send us invoices and then for some it's some of our employees who do the freelance stuff, they can actually just put it in Bitcoin or Monero, but mostly they want to get paid in Bitcoin that are. Doug I'm saying, but do they work for commission? Like if they help you, they're concierge, and they sell a guy a BMW. Is it like a? No. Lando They are actually not. I have that in place specifically for that because buyer's remorse is very dangerous, especially in our crypto field. As I alluded to earlier with the reputation and you want to run a privacy company, you cannot have any privacy for yourself. Lando The same is with your reputation. The reputation is hardly built. It took me at least, I would say a year to have some decent reputation with ShopinBit. Now, after five years, we have a pretty good reputation, but it takes one customer who says, this was a fucked up experience and I didn't got what I wanted. Lando Game over because you know the crypto space. You're fucked. That's why I learned that in my previous fiat life, I guess. I was a project manager in a call center and every time you have this commission based selling, people start being pushy because it affects your bottom line. Lando But the concierge service is not there to sell you something. For me personally, it's better that you do not buy something from us if you're not 100% certain you want it. 99% don't do it, especially for a car. Lando It's a great example. We sold a car a couple of weeks ago and I told the guy, if you're not 100% certain, don't buy the fucking car. Just 99% is not enough. You have to be 100% certain. You sit in the car, touch the lever or fake lever, whatever, and smell the car and drive it around for a test spin and sleep over two nights about it, talk to your wife about it or your spouse or whatever, and then make the buying decision because the last thing I need is that you bought Lamborghini. Lando You bought the Lamborghini and then two weeks later, you feel biased for most like, fuck this car. I should have taken the other one because it was way better and whatever. Then you have resentment against chocolate bits and me personally, of course, and then you will bat my horse at every situation, even though you got the Lamborghini. Lando It's coppy that you're like, fuck, man, this guy and I have this Lamborghini now and now whatever, it doesn't make me as happy as I thought. We had quite some insane requests in the big price range. We had this one customer who wanted to buy an aluminum yacht and they started at the million, even if they're only 35 feet or 40 feet. Lando They're not that long, but since they're aluminum, they're practically unsinkable. You have to shoot cannons at it to sink it. You could just crush an iceberg, no problem. It's just a dent. You go to the next harbor and have it fixed. Lando This customer, I don't know, it probably took us like six, seven months or something for showing the yacht and he decided on none of them. But that's okay because if he would have just decided on one and then was unhappy with it, this is not a situation I want to be in. Lando If you're not 100% happy with your purchase, then please just don't do it. Yeah. Awesome, man. Speaker 3 It was a long explanation. Doug No, no, no, it's all good. So what is next for ShopInBit? Where do you see this all going? Lando Yeah, so we have something quite big coming up that I cannot talk unfortunately about right now but you will see it in the next two to three months and It it unfortunately it has nothing to do with the US, but it's a different type of beast and I think some people will be Yeah Going crazy for this what we're doing next. Lando It's a pretty big and bold move. I guess I But it will be pretty cool and I'm super excited about but I cannot talk about unfortunately because it's Yeah, very very big thing and I think it will kick off our next Expansion Doug be clear people in the US can use Shopin' Bit. It's just that things are getting. OK. Lando Yes, so that's a good point. So we are shipping outside of the U to the US, Canada, Great Britain, and Switzerland. But we can also ship outside of these countries, but only through the Concierge service. Lando When you go to the website directly, you can ship to the US, but then there are also shipping costs added, of course, and depending on the type of product, because some items are pretty heavy, so they're difficult to ship, and it's all export. Lando So you have to pay customs duty at the border. I know that's a big problem for some of the Monero guys. I totally understand, even for Bitcoin guys, it's a super hassle to work with customs, especially in the US, but for the Concierge service, what we also can do is buy stuff within the US and have it shipped to a PO box that you like. Lando So that's also an option. So there's no customs involved, and you can remain as private as legally possible. So, yeah. Doug Makes sense, makes sense. Yeah, but also, Lando Argentina, etc. That's all no problem, but then only through concierge. you Doug Right. So the concierge, it feels the same no matter where you are, whether you're in the US or Europe. Doesn't make a difference. Because then you're just kind of buying, the concierge is buying locally and then shipping to the, to the person. Doug Exactly. And if it's... Lando It's not possible, we will explain to you how we would source it from Riven Europe and ship it to you. Doug Very cool, very cool. Where do you, where are you getting your best margins? Like where are you making your most money off of the concierge service, off of the products being sold? Lando Sex toys. Doug Oh, okay. I mean, it's the internet. So people using Monero to buy dildos is where you're making the most money right now is essentially what's going on. Speaker 3 Yes. Lando I would just leave it at that. Probably. Probably, though. Hey, hey. Doug Yeah, it's the free market, right? It's the free market. Like, like, it's the free market. Speaker 3 That's something. Lando People want to make love and experience love, so I guess. Doug Any, any, were there any specials for Valentine's? Were there any, I mean, it's a little late today. By the time we get this up, we'll be post Valentine's. Lando but we have regularly have some offers for a loop. So if you want to get the king in, we got some for you. Oh yeah, but you also you always get 3% discount when paying with Bitcoin and Ponero. And within the EU, you get free shipping from 21 euros. Doug Oh, that's not bad. Lando Yeah, but only within the EU for outside. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doesn't work out. But it's the same for Bitcoin and Monero. So we are treating Monero equally on the page. So there's no difference. And we run our own note on our BTC Pay server. Lando So as you can see, it's not just the open source talk, but you will see it when you open the payment page. That it's the BTC Pay server. Awesome, awesome. Yeah. Doug Yeah, I use the Monero gateway for my businesses, but I got to move over to the BTCP server, I think. It's very smooth. It's very smooth. Yeah. Lando It works pretty well. So especially with Monero is like one of the easier coins to integrate once you set it up. Doug Lando, man. Thank you so much. This is fantastic. Thank you for, you know, supporting Monero and accepting Monero. Obviously, you're not doing it out of the kindness of your heart. You're doing it as a businessman and a believer in, you know, sound money. Doug You found your way to accepting Monero, but I appreciate it nonetheless. Lando Yeah, but again, there is no bad reason for doing stuff. It's just that it's done, right? So if, like, for me, it's... Doug I'm glad the incentives align there for you. Yeah, of course. That's what I'm trying to say. Lando Like again, like you're already 40% of our crypto customers, right? So it would be stupid to not accept Monero. That's that's my tip for everyone out there. If you're already running a crypto business and not accepting Monero, what the fuck are you doing, man? Lando You're wasting revenue. And like when you have to, when you run a business, you have to make decisions to make more revenue. Like that's your, that's the to end with a Mises quote, right? Profit is the signal of the market, whether your goods and services are valuable to society or not. Lando So if you're leaving profit on the table, are you able to society or not? So debunk that Mises. That's the last one, I guess. Doug Awesome, man. Well, that's a good quote to end on. Any chance we see? I know you said you're going to be a Monero Con. Would love to maybe pull you over to Monero Topi in Argentina. I don't know. I don't know if that's too far for you, but that would be fantastic. Lando When is it going to be Monero Sopio? Doug It's going to be alongside LaBitKampf. Same time they're doing LaBitKampf. Literally the first weekend in November. So like November 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Lando that's might be possible that I can still make it but I will put it because I haven't been to Argentina before and I want to eat that steak that good Argentinian steak in Argentina but pay a fraction of the price that I pay here in Europe so Doug It is well worth it just for that, you know, and the Lays is the president down there, right? So it's an anarcho capitalist dream a little bit going on down there. I mean, we'll see how things shake out, but it seems like he's he's legit. Doug So. Lando Yeah, as usual, prepare for the worst, pray for the best. Doug except Lando I guess? Yeah. Doug All right, Lando man. Thank you. Thank you so much Lando Yeah, thank you again for inviting me, Douglas. It was a very nice talk and I got the opportunity to rant again. Doug Go ahead and everybody knows ShopInBit but go ahead and say you know the URLs and yeah, Twitter your personal Twitter If you want or anything you want to put out there for people to find you Lando Sure, sure. So shopinbit .com is our website. If you want to read my ramblings on Twitter, I've been a little bit quiet the last few weeks, but it's LRofbardian at Twitter, or you just type in Landrofbardian. Lando There's no second one. So I checked. And yeah, shopinbit is also our Twitter. I don't think we are on Nostar yet. I'm personally on Nostar, but I didn't check in for quite some weeks. But yeah, Twitter and our website are the best two places to get in touch with us. Doug Are you, one last question, are you potentially hiring at any point? Maybe there's some people out there that would want to do concierge and get paid in Monero, right? Just throwing it out there as an idea, I don't know. Lando Yes, not now, but after the thing that I cannot talk about, we will probably be starting to hire a bit more aggressively. All right. Yeah, I keep it ominous. I'm sorry. I want to tell you about it, because it's so cool. Doug Cool, but I can't. Mysterious, mysterious, mysterious. That's ominous. Sounds good and hopeful. How many is this negative? Speaker 3 Thank you. Doug Yeah, yeah. Ah, OK. So mysterious. Well, could be. Yeah, yeah, I would say mysterious. The mystique. Yeah. But your English is fantastic, by the way. Thank you very much. I don't know where you picked that up, but. Doug Lots of scrubs. Lando and free Sixth Mafia. Doug Yeah. All right, brother, this was fantastic. Greatly appreciate you taking the time. Lando Thank you very much, Douglas, and have a nice morning, I guess. Doug We'll do all right. Chow. Chow. All right. Hold on one second