Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Pawn Sacrifice (2014) - Edward Zwick | Houselights #173

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Pawn Sacrifice (2014) - Edward Zwick | Houselights #173 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the NED Party. Welcome back to House Lights, our director discussion
0:23
show here on the Nerd Party Network. Today, we're in the final match
0:27
of the House of his Wick with his twenty fifteen film Pawn Sacrifice, the
0:32
biographical drama of chess grandmaster Bobby Fischer. I'm Darren phone repairman Moser, and
0:39
I'm joined again by my friend's John Sicilian Move Mills and the lawyer to the
0:44
stars, Tristan Riddell. It's your move once again, man, Darren's Pawn
0:50
Sacrifice. Darren just gets it. You know, you guys live for these
0:54
intros. You're like, we do What's he gonna do today? Who am
0:57
I going to be this time? I like this? Yeah, well,
1:00
you know that's kind of the highlight of this discussion. And it's going to
1:03
go in a direction from here. It'll go somewhere. It'll go somewhere,
1:07
It'll go somewhere. Yes, yes, it will go somewhere. Man.
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So right out of the gate, we are not hiding our feelings whatsoever.
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You know, I think I might. I might actually wind up being the
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least curmudgeonly of the group of us. However, because you were there in
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seventy two. I was a great idea I had not yet been realized.
1:33
I think things go differently if I were. I think that, you know,
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it's this is one of those things where I wonder if having something at
1:44
this point that is set in that whole Cold War et cetera, et cetera
1:49
sort of thing, it doesn't hit the same way it used to. Like
1:53
there's almost like a thing where like this was its own genre of like this
1:57
is what it was like during this time era thing, and it's like it
2:01
I think this winds up at a disadvantage because by by twenty fourteen and now
2:06
when we're watching it in twenty twenty four this is distant enough in the past,
2:09
but we've seen so much about it that it's like yeah, yeah,
2:14
yeah, US USSR hate each other. Everything's about everybody thought it was the
2:17
great, Yeah, like it was so amazing. They were having this fight
2:22
in Iceland, and then over here we had Rocky trying to defeat the Russians
2:27
as well. Like it all came to a head in the same year,
2:29
didn't it. Oh no, no, Rocky no, no, yeah,
2:31
right, well it becomes a blur. But you know, Bobby Fisher started
2:36
the end game and Rocky delivered the checkmate. Well, like speaking of like
2:40
his historical stuff, I mean, because you know, the Rocky thing actually
2:45
happened. It was like it was crazy what happened in seventy two, like
2:51
just just the one year alone, you know, like Vietnam's winding down,
2:55
Nixon goes to China, there's the uh Nixon's you know, Shenanigans with breaking
3:02
into the DNC. H Well, I mean, I'm gonna have to look
3:07
it up, but there's like I remember or yeah, yeah, yeah,
3:09
there's so much going on eight in seventy two. But yet this is what
3:15
everybody was talking about. And I feel like, you know, John,
3:17
you were talking about a disconnect. To me, I think that's the disconnect,
3:23
is that when you have something that's like Apollo thirteen, you know,
3:27
we we weren't around for Apollo thirteen, but yet the whole world was watching,
3:31
everyone was paying attention, and we can believe that in our bones.
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Now. I am not arguing the historical accuracy of Bobby Fisher's celebrity or that
3:42
the whole world was watching, or that he was like a rock star and
3:45
like he was huge. I'm not arguing that, but for some reason.
3:49
You know, when I watch Apollo thirteen, I'm just like, yeah,
3:52
that makes sense. But when I watch this, I'm just like, Okay,
3:54
all right, I guess well, I mean I mean to be to
3:59
be fair, it is every single interaction between the two sides was given this
4:04
sort of weight to it, like this is our chance to prove we're the
4:08
best at everything, sort of vibe to it, kind of the ideological side
4:12
of the war. But what I think is missing from this is there's plenty
4:16
of emphasis on Bobby Fisher became a rock star. We have all of these
4:20
clips, both real and manufactured, to illustrate that. What this film is
4:27
missing, in my opinion, is a voice of somebody cynical about people paying
4:33
attention to it, to sort of contextualize it as that there were undoubtedly people
4:36
saying exactly what you're saying, Tristan, Why are we caught up in this?
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We have all of this other stuff happening. Why aren't we paying it?
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This is distracting everyone from the actual root problems that we have to address,
4:49
and then have somebody say no, you have to understand, just like
4:53
they did with the movie Miracle, which I think did it perfectly, where
4:58
that hockey game was it's really important, but you sit there and you're like,
5:00
it's just a hockey game. But they have this one scene where the
5:04
two guys are sitting in the car and one guy says, you know,
5:09
do you really think like he's basically being the voice of the cynic and the
5:12
other guy in the car, Kenneth Welsh I think was the guy who played
5:15
him. He said, you know, this is all going to work out,
5:17
but this is really important because this is in people's hearts and this is
5:20
why we need to care about this, and just then one context of that,
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yeah, yeah, I agree. There was no outside perspective, like
5:30
this is a very small cast and almost everybody is inside the Chess universe pretty
5:36
much. The only people outside were you know, Donna who again that scene
5:44
where like they're rewatching game four or something and I'm like, do you guys
5:48
even understand what's going on? Like people are watching chess and I get it,
5:53
but like do you really understand or you just kind of in it to
5:57
win it? But yeah, there was no outside person, maybe like a
6:02
childhood friend or somebody that could just give that perspective of the everyday person.
6:09
We were all in this tiny club for the entire movie. Yeah, exactly.
6:13
That was actually one of my favorite lines or moments in the movie was
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when they were in the bar and rewatching and he says something. He says
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something to the effect of like, oh, he just took his rook.
6:23
She's like, I took his virginity. That was so freaking funny, and
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I like the guy behind him is all like, you guys know he won
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this one. He's like, yeah, we're we watching it. I'm like,
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okay, sure, man, must be a okay, hold on.
6:43
There were like three channels back then, true, so you know, you
6:46
were very limited in what if they were showing a repeat, that meant that
6:50
like whatever else was on the other channel was some sitcom we've never heard of
6:55
because everybody you know hated it or something like that. So I just looked
6:59
it up and immune happened in seventy two as well, So all of that's
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going on in the same year, so, you know, little things in
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the middle thing in Soviet history, just just little you know, but even
7:12
that would have been did it happen before or after this chess match? Oh
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No, I'm not. I'm not saying like, oh, people had more
7:17
important things to worry about. I'm just saying that, like it was a
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big I'm saying, but I'm saying having more emphasis. I think because you
7:24
hear about the Watergate break in in the background, you hear about certain things,
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I think maybe having more even if it's fictional, you know, fictionalized
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sort of like news coverage and then in the other news about Bobby Fisher,
7:36
you know, or they could say, you know, this is three months
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after munich like coverage of the Watergate scandal, Bobby Fisher has won Game four,
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Like okay, sure, yeah, Well apparently the one of the screenwriters,
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Stephen Knight, I think, was was you know there in seventy two
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and he said He's like, He's like, yeah, it was weird.
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He's like every news during the championship, like every news station and newscast during
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the championship would start the news by saying what was happening in Iceland at that
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time. They would start the news that way, And I'm so far from
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it. I'm so far from it that I'm just like, well, it
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just sounds fake. But okay, no again, just just anchor it,
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you know, just anchor it and show a little bit more of the news
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coverage, you know, like open with Bobby Fisher, and then you know,
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whomever the news coverage guy says something else about what's going on, so
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I can contextualize everything, but not not to keep hammering on that, because
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the thing is like structurally other than that, I didn't I don't have a
8:39
problem. Like it's not like one of those things where I sit down,
8:41
I'm like, oh, that sucked. I wouldn't have cut this. I
8:43
would have had this scene here. There's This is one of those things where
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it's really frustrating to even criticize this film because I'm like, procedurally, it's
8:52
really put together the way it should be, and it builds and the performances
8:56
are fine. I actually think driver at the beginning and then you go back
9:00
into his past and because I mean, well, this was all the first
9:05
time. I believe that all of us have watched this, Like definitely,
9:09
I did not catch it in theaters, didn't even know it existed until we
9:11
were going through the House of Zwick, and I kind of told Tristan this,
9:16
you know, before we recorded. I have to give it at least
9:20
a mark for the fact that not that I've seen Toby maguire in a lot
9:24
of stuff, but I did not see Spider Man. I actually saw another
9:30
character really well acted through this entire movie. And I have to give them
9:35
props for that, because when you are a character an actor that is so
9:39
shadowed by a particular pop culture role, it can at times, not for
9:45
everybody, but for me at least, it's hard to get out of that
9:48
shadow. I want to throw an idea at you guys, because definitely,
9:52
but you got to hit the clock first, so it's your turn. Yeah,
9:54
sorry about that. Yeah, but I would throw an idea at you
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guys, because basically the movie near the end then flips it around where it
10:05
winds up affecting Spassky played by Leave Schreiber, where he starts getting paranoid about
10:11
everything and it starts affecting him, and he's the one. He's the skeptic
10:15
saying no, he's not this way. He's messing with me. I refuse
10:20
to lose this way, and it amps him up. He gets in his
10:22
head where and I got in his head the first time they played. But
10:26
but the thing is, I never have a reason as an audience member to
10:31
question whether this is authentically who he is. I almost wonder if there could
10:39
have been an opportunity to pull back a little bit so that you're left to
10:45
question whether Bobby Fisher is screwing with us as the audience. Christine, I
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have no reason to question, yes, exactly. I have no reason to
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question it if all I see is his lawyer come in at that one point
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and the room's trashed and he's sitting there and like, dude, what's happening
11:01
here? I'm trying to get all these people, and I never see the
11:05
build up. I never see him actually freak out alone. Then when Spasky
11:09
has his moment of doubt where he's like, no, this isn't him,
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this is a game that he's playing, then as an audience member, I
11:15
actually wind up enjoying it more because I'm like, well, wait a minute,
11:18
maybe I'm drawing the wrong conclusion, and it can toy with me that
11:20
way. Well, once you start to hear voices in his perspective, that's
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when it's like, now you believe, now you're not being presented with a
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that is the reasonable doubt going out the window, and you're like, oh
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no, he's literally hearing voices. He is he is going off the off
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the rails. And also when his sister comes in concerned, you're like,
11:41
Okay, yeah, that puts the nail on the coffin. Like for people
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who don't know anything about Bobby Fisher, this would be a first time experience
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to me. Like, you know, Darren, you mentioned the beginning hook
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I and John you talked about Structurally, I think you're right, Like,
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structurally this makes sense. The way that it's laid out, it's like a
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classick sports biopic kind of kind of deal, Like it's it's really shot of
12:05
the final game at the very beginning, and then you cut back to how
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we got there. I don't like that. I think that's the That's something
12:13
that I would change, don't Tarantino it, Like, don't don't start with
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the end and then come back, like start with his childhood and move forward
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and so that we're along for the ride with him, so that we have
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that that doubt that you're talking about, John, I think the beginning kind
12:28
of solidifies it because he's alone and we're like, oh, he's he's screwed
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up. You know, what is it? You know, like, is
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he he's paranoid? Is he paranoid? Schizophrenic? You know, is he
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manic? You know, like, what what is it? You know what?
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What? What's what's going on? We know something because we've been told
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many times through society and through movies that genius comes at a cost, and
12:45
we're like, so this is what this story is. I mean, I
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don't remember it. It's been a long time since I've watched it, but
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yeah, it would be like a beautiful Mind starting with stumpthing towards the very
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end, with like all the personalities and and and things around then and then
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you jump back and see how he got there. That would have wrecked that
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movie like that. I don't want to see that hook at the end.
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But it's interesting though it because I like, I didn't have a problem with
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the hook because it kind of was telling me this is the kind of movie,
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this is what you're gonna be in for like, oh, like there's
13:22
people taking pictures, and then when it jumps back to people taking pictures of
13:26
him in the past, I'm like, oh, okay, so there's some
13:30
validity behind these concerns. But it was almost like the kind of hook you
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put into a streaming movie where you have to make sure people are going to
13:39
stick around and watch it. But this was a theatrical movie. They've already
13:45
bought the ticket and they're already sitting there, like, you don't have to
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structure it that way, you know what I mean? Oh man, I
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hate that you bring that up, because that's, oh, that's such a
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real thing. Oh yeah, I mean I think I think Zwick yes boxes
14:00
himself in there. I can see arguments for and against. I think that
14:05
McGuire's performance is really solid. I just have trouble putting my finger on what
14:13
just doesn't quite ignite because and I feel sorry for Fisher, Like what are
14:18
we supposed to feel at the end of this, right? Yes? And
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again on top of that, there's sort of this thing where at least I
14:26
have a payoff in I'll make reference to it again, something like miracle,
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where at the end I'm cheering with the audience. I'm like, yeah,
14:33
they did it, they won. And at the end of this, I'm
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like, I don't know what I should care about. To your point,
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Darren, I'm like, I have no I didn't feel any emotional investment in
14:46
what this meant for the world or and he wins off the screen. He
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wins off screen, and then we're out of the movie like thirty seconds later
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with a couple of titles and you know, filling the gain in an actual
14:58
footage a Bobby Field Like, it's a very odd ending. I don't know
15:01
how I would fix it or what I would change, because there's other things
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that it doesn't show, Like there's whole games it doesn't show, Like it's
15:09
just like, oh, he moved one thing, and then the next shot
15:11
is like the next day and it's like, oh, yeah, he lost,
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And I'm like, okay, that's a choice. I mean, again,
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I don't know how you're going to tell a two hour movie about chess
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and show all the chess Like I get that, but it yeah, the
15:26
ending that I mean I think, I like, I really like your comparison
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to Miracle John because which again I haven't seen in forever, so I'm kind
15:35
of pulling at the threads. But yeah, but at the end, like
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that moment is is you know, is Spaski clapping for him and the announcers
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all like, oh, Grandmaster's never clapped for their opponents, And I'm like
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it doesn't quite have the same zeal as like, you know, the guy
15:54
makes the final goal and everyone's rushing the you know the rink and cheering right
15:58
well, I think it also would have been nice to support that by showing
16:03
more of other people playing and showing how stern or dispassionate people are when they
16:11
leave their matches, so that when Spassky collapse, you're like, you get
16:15
that, it's like, oh, this is really special, what just happened?
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And instead, I don't have any frame of conference, frame of you
16:22
know, reference, except for the announcer to say, oh wow, nobody
16:26
ever claps. I'm like, oh when you get when you have to put
16:30
in a narration to tell you that you're supposed to notice that and know that,
16:33
it's like, oh, but you didn't. I mean, you didn't
16:36
set it up and have payoff because you didn't give me that information in a
16:40
natural way. You know. I'm going to ask you guys a weird question.
16:45
Have you guys ever been avid chess players at all? Avid? I
16:51
mean that's I wouldn't say avid. Okay, I enjoy the game and I
16:56
never get anybody to play with. I you know, I played with a
17:00
six year old, you know, last year. That's the first time I
17:03
played in like twenty years, you know, and both at the level of
17:06
just we know how the pieces move, but we're not. There's no strategy,
17:10
there's no like, ah, yes, the Sicilian maneuver. I see
17:12
if it's like okay, sure, like I'm not thinking far ahead. Well.
17:18
The reason I ask is because I wonder if this movie plays differently for
17:23
people who are chess obsessives like my uncle when I was growing up. I
17:30
actually chuckled during this because he says at one point, you know, do
17:33
unexpected moves, and the Russians don't know what to do with it because they,
17:37
you know, they become reactionary. They don't know what to do.
17:41
My uncle was actually like a a like a great chess player, and I
17:47
played one of the you know, timed matches with him. It's the only
17:48
one I ever did. I had no idea what I was doing, and
17:53
because I had no idea what I was doing, we wound up fighting to
17:56
a draw because he couldn't figure out what he thought. I was trying to
18:00
outsmart him and I'm like chaos and he's like, I don't know what to
18:03
do. It's smart. Yeah, I was like, all right, I
18:07
lasted thirty minutes. Yeah, well, like you said, John, Yeah,
18:11
I mean earlier in the movie when we're seeing Bobby play against other people
18:15
and and do the whole like walking down the rod, like playing eight games
18:19
at once, like actually enjoyed that more. I enjoyed that more than the
18:23
duel at the end of one on one and and seeing him react, you
18:30
know, seeing him as a young kid react. And and we also kind
18:32
of had like the teacher analog, you know, the you know who kind
18:37
of discovered him and got him started, who kind of disappears for the whole
18:42
half of the movie, like he's just kind of bit in the air circle
18:47
and said, it's the Lawyer and the Priest. Well, it is based
18:51
off of a true story, so you mean, yeah, which I I
18:52
get that, and those never take liberties. You're right, don't turn that
18:56
very accurate. What if they made the lawyer the priest, they just combine
19:00
the roles and now you're just talking crazy. That's nuts. That's absolutely speak
19:06
speaking of the lawyer. Actually, you know, it's speaking of the lawyer
19:07
and the priest. This cast walking to a bar. This this is filled
19:14
with people who when you see their name in any movie, you're like,
19:18
oh, this is going to be a better movie because of it. Like,
19:21
you know, Lea of Schreiber, Peter Sarsguard, Michael Stolberg, Like
19:26
all of those people are actors who are usually supporting or usually like the third
19:33
or you know, fourth lead or something like that, but they always bring
19:37
it. Like every single role they're in, You're like, man, they're
19:40
they're here, they know what to do and they're entertaining. And I thought
19:45
that this was a very good movie when it came to performances, and you
19:48
know, you know, you know, darn you were talking about Toby maguire.
19:51
I think he I think he did a stellar job. After seeing some
19:53
of the interview like the real interviews with Bobby Fisher, a younger Bobby Fisher,
19:57
is like, holy crap, he really did. Like he's not mimicking
20:03
him to a tee, but he's he's the Toby McGuire version, you know,
20:07
like it's not like he's Gary Oldman or something like that, but yet
20:10
he's he's bringing what he needs to bring in order to make it a legit
20:15
biopic. And I always throughout the movie, I thought that was really good
20:19
and it was the I feel like the movie started with a lot of good
20:22
will. You know, I was, I was in it. I was
20:25
with him. I was just like watching him, you know, rise up
20:26
as a kid, then as a teenager, and then we get to a
20:30
you know, Toby McGuire's version. It just you know, like they introduced
20:34
the lawyer, then they introduced the priest, and they realized that they have
20:38
history. And I love the moments between you know, Fisher and the priest,
20:42
and like, especially when they were just playing chess audibly. He's like,
20:45
holy crap, that is cool. It's like the fact that they never
20:48
turned off. He's always playing chess in his mind. And that's like even
20:52
after the end where he closes up the book and you're like, oh,
20:55
he's kind of done. Yeah. And but once we got into it,
21:00
like once we got into the champions ship stuff and he started getting more and
21:04
more famous, that's when I feel like the movie loses you. That's when
21:10
the I feel like they used up their goodwill. But what makes this a
21:12
frustrating yeah, well yeah, but what makes this a frustrating conversation is none
21:18
of us can really say why, Like why it's it's so hard to nail
21:25
down to one thing. Maybe yeah, it's the nature of a biopic of
21:30
a real person and a real life and the closer we get to the actual
21:33
event that really happened, the less narrative it becomes and the more biopicky it
21:41
becomes, And that that kind of drained the color from the narrative because the
21:47
end has to be what happened. Now, I personally don't care. They
21:51
could say, oh, yeah, they played the whole rest of it in
21:53
the basement, and then they played on the roof, and then like they
21:56
could do whatever they want, but obviously they not going to because of the
21:59
nare bile picks. But yeah, it maybe that's it. The farther they
22:03
got from the creative license and the more towards this pivotal moment, it just
22:11
didn't like I kept thinking, why are these guys up in the stands,
22:14
Like why would they not be right behind the curtain ready to rush out and
22:17
help him, because like he obviously needs help. When he needs help,
22:21
Well, it's like football, you know, you have to have your defensive
22:22
coordinator. I was mimicking the plays on a board and everyone else was mimicking
22:27
the plays on the board. Yeah, I think that it literally is just
22:34
the subject matter here is not going to electrify an audience because it's just I
22:41
apologize anybody that's offended by this. It's just a chess game. There's nothing
22:45
inherently they could have taken. For all I know, they took all the
22:51
license with this, and I have no idea what they fudged. I have
22:56
no idea how they got inside the room to know what happened with Bobby Fisher
23:00
and his lawyer. That's probably invented, you know, that sort of thing.
23:04
But I think that there's also a stylistic thing. The successful biopics are
23:10
the ones that just say, screw it, it's a movie and they lean
23:14
into it. I will always point to Oliver Stone's movie The Doors, which
23:18
roughly resembles Jim Morrison's life, or I'll look at something like Ray like that's
23:26
a fun story of a you know, and that has that has just as
23:30
many licenses taken as The Door. But that but that's the point is,
23:36
Yeah, you have to jazz it up. It's a movie. If like
23:40
I, you know what, I think, maybe that's it. This.
23:42
I would say Zwick is feeling so obligated to be as truthful about the time
23:47
period and history and the story that he hamstrings himself. This is documentary territory.
23:52
And apparently that's why he was hired, which I think is really interesting
23:57
because the produce and Tomy Maguire was one of the producers. Uh. The
24:03
reason why his Wick was brought in because apparently a lot of high level people
24:07
were attached to this. Fincher was attached to this for years and they brought
24:12
in they Yeah, And I'm about to mention that I'm going to expound on
24:17
that in a second. Zwick was brought in because in his previous movies he
24:21
has such he has such an attention detail and accuracy that they're like, Oh,
24:26
that's what this movie needs. But going back to Fincher, can you
24:30
imagine what Fincher would have done with this? Bobby Fincher, Hmmm. I
24:37
think that it's possible that this goes into Mank territory for Fincher. Oh,
24:41
I don't know if I'd go that far. I would I think, you
24:45
know, I think Fincher if he leans into less accuracy and more not not
24:52
full tilt. Keep in mind, I'm just for the sake of illustrating verbally,
24:56
like, if he's allowed to play more with being in Bob Fischer's mind
25:00
the way he is in Fight Club, that works that I think a Fincher
25:04
movie because if you bring him in and like, he really would have expanded
25:11
on the paranoia aspect of his personality. And I'm not just talking about the
25:15
idiosyncrasies or him constantly saying the Russians are out to get me. No,
25:19
like we would have felt his paranoia. We would have been with Aviator level
25:25
of paranoia, you know what I mean, like but not like Fight Cub
25:27
level of paranoia. I think Fincher probably has more shadowy like shadows on the
25:33
wall sort of thing that like he jumps at sort of stuff like and we
25:37
get the impression that we're seeing things too. I'll see that point. That's
25:41
a good point where instead it went back to the memory, Like it was
25:44
very obvious he's seeing that memory of being in his mother's house and the people
25:48
under the door, Like we kept having that exact same shot, the same
25:52
noise of the pounding on the door. Like I'm like, this is just
25:56
his past banging on the door. It's not you know, paranoia. I
26:02
mean it is, but that's it. I think you just pointed at something
26:06
that is missing as well. Is that idea of Fisher playing Spasky in the
26:11
Russians And why it messes with him so much is he's playing his past because
26:15
his mom was a sympathizer and like you know, it led to all of
26:19
these problems, and the FBI was watching his house. That connection never really
26:25
fires. Have it be more about him having to fight that that's his internal
26:32
struggle. That Yeah, I think that is one of the things. You
26:34
just found it right there that could have made this come to life. And
26:37
that's always difficult internal struggles. How do you show an internal struggle in a
26:41
movie. It's not a book. You can't put yourself in it. I
26:45
think that's the thing. It's yeah, Oh no, I didn't. I
26:48
really didn't mean to cut you off, But I was just saying that it
26:52
is doable, but it takes craft and skill and it's not always achieved.
26:56
And that's why I feel like somebody like Fincher has the mastery of the visual
27:03
language to do that. And like, one thing that really sticks out to
27:08
me and I think is a great comparison of the directors is the scene where
27:14
Fisher wakes up on the beach and we he sees Spasky and his handlers,
27:19
you know, like Spasky swimming and then his handlers are there. The way
27:22
that Zwick shoots it is very real, is very honest and very accurate.
27:29
Like, you know, like he, you know, Maguire thinks McGuire,
27:33
you know, Fisher thinks that he's he's like, he's like he wakes up
27:36
and he's like, oh my god, are they following me? Are they
27:37
following me? And we as the audience know he's just a narcissistic asshole,
27:41
that's all he is. And but if you have someone like Fincher, and
27:45
everybody knows I'm a Fincher fanboy, but like, if you have somebody like
27:48
Fincher, even if we know he's a paranoid, schizophrenic, Fincher would have
27:52
utilized the visual language and the ambiguity of Fisher's mind in order to bring us
27:59
into the fold. And I think that's what Zwick doesn't do. He doesn't
28:03
bring us into Fisher's world. We're an outsider. We're a knowledgeable outsider,
28:08
but we were kind of like the priest, you know, like sometimes we're
28:11
the priests, sometimes we're the lawyer. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it
28:15
is that the main character shouldn't have been Fisher. It should have been one
28:19
of the people with him, so that we could have sympathized with the fear,
28:22
but we could have sympathized with that character more, and that would have
28:26
been our point of view character, because our point of view character is Fisher,
28:30
which is also weird because yeah it I mean, that would have been
28:37
a very different direction. I mean the first draft when Zwick wanted Denzel Washington
28:41
to play Boris like, I was amazed, but hey, hey, we
28:48
will take it. No, I want to say mindcasting live Streiber. He
28:53
he did amazing in this I mean acting he does. I mean not to
28:57
say like I'm surprised, but but the acting he does, especially in the
29:00
end, the amount of information he's conveying with like a look like it's like
29:07
okay, and you're gonna channel I just realized I lost. But because of
29:12
this, this and this and go and it just it comes on his face
29:17
and I'm like, wow, he is. That's really good. Lee Schreiber
29:21
is easily one of the most overlooked actors working today. He's not a household
29:26
name. He'll probably never be a household name. But to your point,
29:32
he's so gifted. He has such a talent, such skill, and he
29:40
he's given not a whole lot of screen time, but even the first moments
29:44
where you meet him, the way he walks, as he's wearing his sunglasses
29:48
and going out on the beach, like you get a feel like you feel
29:51
like you know this guy person. Yeah, I doesn't feel like a Russian
29:56
caricature at all, right, he feels like somebody that exists, very very
30:00
very true, Darren, Like, he never feels like just a stereotype that
30:06
we have for Soviets, not even Russians, but Soviets. He never went
30:08
around him. All his handlers were felt like stereotypes everybody else, but he
30:12
felt like a man who is at this peak of his game, world champion.
30:19
Well, and I think that that's also another thing though, is that,
30:23
like John, I think you might have touched on this earlier, is
30:26
that you know, they play on the paranoia and everybody's just like, oh,
30:30
you know, yeah, you know Fisher's craziest because he's doing X,
30:32
Y and Z and thinks the Russians are listening in. We all know that
30:37
they probably were, probably were, Yeah, yeah, the odds are uh
30:41
yeah, but but you know what, actually, just because we're talking about
30:45
Shreiver as as Spassky and that first scene where he walks out on the beach.
30:51
This is where I will gives Wick credit for certain things and certain decisions.
30:55
Is you know, his all of his handlers are with him in these
30:57
you know, drab black suits, but he's got the black turtleneck and the
31:02
stylish suit and the wavy hair and everything. And you can tell that like
31:06
that this guy, if he were an American, would be given the Bobby
31:10
Fisher treatment because he's as close as you're gonna get it to it is the
31:14
equivalent. For sure. He's the closest that the Communist Party's ever going to
31:17
let him get in the Soviet Union. And like, you know, there's
31:21
even that feeling of like I would have liked to have the movie play even
31:26
a little bit more on that fear, because everybody knows what happened to people
31:29
who disappointed leadership. You know, when he says, here's that one night
31:33
and goes plays pinball at at a restaurant, like I'm getting very much.
31:37
I would have liked to see Montana vibes like not that he's full un defecting,
31:41
but like he's getting a glimpse of the American life and there's a lot
31:45
of that ideological baked into this movie. End of that time period. Well
31:49
even I mean even tease out more in that conversation to make his handler feel
31:56
more like somebody who's aware of where this can go, and have them longer
32:00
conversations about, hey, Boris, you know how good you have it?
32:02
You have it so much better than everybody else, you know, back home,
32:07
and then have you could even humanize Boris by having him have a response
32:10
like I know that bothers me here's like that that sort of thing, and
32:14
like you you you steal a little moment right there, and you give Spassky
32:17
even more uh, you know, weight to his character and what he's going
32:22
through because that reflexively makes Fisher more relatable and understandable, you know, so
32:29
far as those scenes gone, that's interesting because Basque's not the villain, the
32:35
opposite. He's the Yeah, he's the he's yeah, he's the antagonist,
32:38
but he's not. Yeah, but he's not meant to be like it's like,
32:43
no, you're the he's the tow b defeat, right, he's the
32:45
grand master, he's you know, and he's not doing this for for a
32:50
great Soviet pride. He's doing it because he wants to prove he's the best.
32:53
He's motivated by the same thing that's motivating Fisher. And it's like,
32:58
uh, you know that. I guess that's another thing where it's like,
33:00
okay, there, we're sort of like piecing together all of the places where
33:04
it sort of like fell short for us. But the thing is, again,
33:07
the way it's put together, I can't really attack it procedurally. The
33:10
way it's shot, I think is a very very pretty movie to look at.
33:15
There are certain things and you know, and Bradford Young, as we
33:17
all know, I love his work. I love his work. Bradford Young
33:22
like he I mean like it's almost like the opposite of Solo. He used
33:27
lights, he actually turned them on for this movie, and so it was
33:30
beautiful cinematography. Well, what's interesting is people with a train diye can actually
33:35
see how it's beautiful in both circumstances because the film's called for for different things.
33:39
But more importantly is that, you know, this is one of those
33:45
things where I would say that the visually the biggest success of the film is
33:50
the fact that it's so easy for time period movies like this to get that
33:55
sort of like we brown flooded too many CPIA filters on and we put browns
34:02
on everything, and lo, like this looks like what the time period really
34:07
would have looked like if you were living in it, as opposed to that
34:12
faded, overly yellowed coda chrome photo that you find in your grandfather's basement sort
34:16
of thing where it's like we've seen so many movies like that, where it's
34:20
like, guys, that's that's not actually how things looked back then. That's
34:23
how the photograph sort of yellowed through time. So like, you know,
34:27
this feels like the real world when I look at it. This one.
34:30
I was really impressed with what young Enswick did with the look of this because
34:36
this was shot on an elect This was primary shot on an Alexa and which
34:40
is a digital camera, but their negative format they use they utilized thirty five
34:45
millimeter and sixteen millimeter and so I haven't read into this, but I'm just
34:51
kind of guessing on what they did was they had a two K di I
34:55
process, so they shot it on Alexa, but they all probably did some
34:59
other stuff on film to make it look like, you know, that of
35:01
the time, but in order to master it. I'm sure that they put
35:04
it onto film almost kind of like like I passed what for the very end?
35:09
Yeah, yeah, like kind of what The Batman did, where they
35:13
shot it digitally, put it on film and edit it and then re scanned
35:16
it just to get that grain. I'm not saying that they did that here.
35:22
I'm just saying that, like with this, with this movie, they
35:24
like Young did such a great job of utilizing grain where it's not it doesn't
35:30
look like a filter, you know, it doesn't look like it was slapped
35:35
on there. It doesn't look like they were trying to go so grainy or
35:38
so weird, like like Spielberg does sometimes with his glow, you know,
35:43
like it really felt like, oh wow, this could have been shot in
35:46
the seventies, but it's not distractingly different. But there's also an I know,
35:52
it seems so weird to fixate on this, but the one, the
35:54
one moment that I did fixate on was when they dropped to McGuire into the
36:00
Dick Cavitt Show. I am one hundred percent completely unsuccessful. They completely missed
36:06
the mark. They really that is the most blaring example in the entire movie,
36:10
and probably in a few movies who have done that like when Forrest Gump
36:15
does that in the nineties better than you did in twenty what was it,
36:20
twenty twelve, fourteen, that's embarrassing. Yeah, like that's because all you
36:27
have to do is dirty it up. Just I'm not saying all you have
36:29
to do. I'm not saying it's simple, but just they it was clearly
36:31
shot on a really nice camera, but they were just like, an't good
36:36
enough, Like don't forget television cameras. I mean, well, they kind
36:38
of did it at the very end when they were playing in the in the
36:42
ping pong room and they had like the point of view of the camera that
36:45
was sending the signal, and it looked like it was shot through vasiline,
36:50
like it looked terrible, and then they click it into the film cameras so
36:52
we don't have to actually watch it like that For that. I love that.
36:55
And they use the timer like the guy, whatever his position is,
37:01
the guy in the room hitting the timer in order to transition. I love
37:06
that stuff. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. Well, and
37:08
kind of around the look as you guys are talking about. I really liked
37:13
the of this movie did a really good job of making me feel in that
37:20
time, not necessarily because of the look, like obviously that was there,
37:24
but just I felt like, oh, this was a time when like everybody
37:29
got their news from the nightly news and newspapers and bookshops and like just that
37:37
pre internet time where your source of information. And you know, we talked
37:44
about it kind of the very beginning about that national fervor on this tournament.
37:49
But you look at it and yeah, there's because that's what was on the
37:53
news, that's what everyone was talking about. That it could guide the collective
37:59
focus of the nation in a way that the Internet you can't. There's not
38:02
as much of those zeitgeist everybody's in on it moments now, but back then
38:08
it was easy to be like, like you said, the top of the
38:12
hour, oh we're talking about the six o'clock news, but let's check in
38:15
on Bobby Fisherfurt's like everybody's doing that, you know. I think that that
38:21
that's an excellent point. I think also where we're sitting here struggling with you
38:25
know what, you're putting our finger on what didn't connect. But definitely audiences
38:30
felt the same way because this was this was what I would call a low
38:35
risk budget nineteen million. It's a good transition there, John, because boy
38:40
and five point six, I mean five or six global. It was like,
38:45
you can't global one US. You cannot get in the twenty tens,
38:52
and nowadays you can't get a movie. You can't get a movie catered for
38:55
twenty million. Nowadays, it seems at nineteen million that that seems a surefire.
39:01
Oh yeah, sure, we'll we'll make back, we'll make back our
39:05
money. Like I would have were I an in fifty million, were I
39:09
an investor, I'd been like, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah,
39:12
yeah, I'll definitely get something back on this. And everybody takes a bath.
39:15
I'm like, wow, so we're not alone in this. I mean,
39:20
granted, pawn Sacrifice, the bio pickup, Bobby Fisher isn't screaming gotta
39:24
see movie of the century, just just off the top like they. I
39:30
don't even remember seeing this marketed. I don't even remember this being I didn't
39:32
know this movie existed until we looked it up. I hate to say it
39:37
this way, but I almost wonder if it draws a bigger audience if there's
39:42
a different star playing Fisher, probably, and I that feels so dismissive of
39:47
McGuire because, like I said, we all loved his performance. We all
39:51
thought he did a great job. I just think that he's a harder sell
39:57
to get people in the seats by this, by this point in his career,
40:00
which is a terribly unfair thing for a talented, gifted performer to,
40:07
you know, to be in a position like that, Like but it really
40:09
is you know, movies are what have you done for me lately? Sort
40:13
of thing, and I think audiences, you know, he hasn't had a
40:15
renaissance, you know, at this point in twenty fourteen, this had been
40:21
a direct to Netflix movie right after his cameo back in Spider Man, that
40:28
would have been like the moment like, oh, he's kind of back in
40:30
the public eye. People are like, oh I remember him being in that.
40:32
Oh he did really good coming back. What's he doing now? And
40:36
then he gets picked up for this streaming movie, so it's actually going to
40:39
be it's easy enough for people to see, and so people actually see it
40:44
and they actually kind of talk about it. I think it would do better.
40:47
Yeah, that's moving it forward, like Ted six year seven. Well,
40:52
okay, so Spider Man three came out in two thousand and seven,
40:54
and then he doesn't have a solid picture until twenty thirteen with a great Gatsby,
41:00
but no one went to go see Gatsby because of Toby Maguire. True,
41:06
and then he does right, and then he doesn't have anything of note
41:10
until Pond Sacrifice and Boss Baby twenty seventeen. I'm just kidding, No,
41:16
like Pon Sacrifice in twenty fourteen, and then he just drops off the face
41:20
of the earth, you know, movie wise, until No Way Home with
41:23
his cameo there, and then he has another cameo in Babylon. Is this
41:29
is this oscar bait? Is this trying to win some awards? Like?
41:31
Why was this movie made? I don't I don't know. I I think
41:37
that a movie like this is even it's not quote unquote just oscar bait.
41:42
I think that there's a mortgage bait like that, there's a there's there's a
41:47
there's a decent script at its core. They see an opportunity, they amass
41:52
a cast and a director and they're like, yeah, you know, we're
41:55
not gonna make Iron Man money, but we'll make our money back plus a
42:00
little extra, and we can feel good about something we put out there.
42:04
We can say Hey, look we put art out there. I've got Edward
42:07
Zwick, who's a well respected director, producer. I've got you know,
42:12
Toby Maguire and stars Guard and all of these different names that are attached to
42:16
it. I think this is the type of project where you just have a
42:19
good feeling where you're like, you know what, on paper it adds up.
42:22
But I'm not on a green screen. I don't have to wear spandex.
42:25
People will come see this because you know, and hey, we're tapping
42:30
into the whole Cold War thing and remind people of what the world used to
42:32
be like. I mean, this just seems like the sort of thing where
42:36
it's like you do it because this is something you do because you do,
42:39
in fact love the idea of doing a film, of releasing something that people
42:45
might care about. If this movie was made in the mid to late nineties,
42:51
still nobody would have seen it in the theaters, but this would have
42:53
made its money back on DVD easy. Oh. I truly think so this
42:57
is a DV market type of film absolutely, And I think that's the problem
43:01
is is that it came out in twenty fourteen, when if you weren't a
43:06
blockbuster, then I'm saying a literal one where people are like lining up to
43:09
go see it. Blockbuster didn't exist by twenty yeah, Like if you weren't
43:15
a Blockbuster film or a huge quote unquote ten poll which I freaking hate that
43:19
term today, then you were going to be watched on streaming and then it
43:23
just this was that weird middle ground in twenty fourteen, like ten years ago,
43:29
it was just that weird middle ground of this is I think this is
43:31
just another example of the middle of the road movie, you know, dying
43:37
dying out, Like this isn't a huge film and it's not super Indian,
43:42
but at the same time, it was only nineteen million I can't really say.
43:45
And it's September twenty fifteen. I don't know what else was coming out
43:50
that weekend, but it was enough competition to not you know, this isn't
43:53
going to be seen or I don't know how many theaters you're gonna have to
43:58
put it in to get it it's money back. I mean, September is
44:01
not exactly you know, a movie month. You know, you're coming out
44:07
of summer and you're not yet in the holiday season, and so it's like
44:10
you're you're I mean Honestly, September is sort of sort of like January,
44:15
where it's like, maybe we'll get cut, maybe we can find success here
44:19
because the competition is light, which I think it's it even more painful that
44:23
this didn't even make its budget back. I think that's the thing is that
44:28
I think we were kind of answering our questions. It came out in September.
44:31
It you know, it was in the US. Yeah, I think
44:37
it was nobody heard about it. They probably didn't put that much of a
44:40
marketing budget behind it, and I think they probably knew what they had.
44:45
They're like, listen, we have this movie. We got to get rid
44:47
of it. Put it in September, so maybe we could make our money
44:51
back. And yeah, I think yeah. I don't know if the nineteen
44:54
million cover is marketing. Usually those numbers don't. Usually they don't put marketing
44:59
into the budget. But I can imagine if, for say, they were
45:02
them being like, look, we've put nineteen into it. It's not worth
45:07
putting a ten million marketing budget into this movie. It's just that's just money
45:10
down the drain. It's not going to make that back. Like, don't
45:14
throw good money like a streaming deal where you get it on Netflix or Hulu
45:19
or Apple TV or whatever as fast as possible, and and that's the angle
45:22
you go. But I don't know if we were quite there yet in twenty
45:25
three we weren't. Yeah, we were weren't quite there yet. It was
45:30
just the wrong window of time for this, it really was. It was
45:34
just the wrong moment. And also on top of that, it's not a
45:37
good movie. It's but it's not a bad movie. But you know,
45:40
like it's not a tent pole, as Tristan said, it's just it's one
45:45
of those things where it's like I don't hate the thing, I don't mind
45:50
that I watched it, But at the same would I watch it again?
45:55
Probably not. But if like this is the sort of thing where like if
46:00
I'm walking through a room and like somebody's got it, I'm like, ahh
46:02
okay, I might sit down and watch, you know, a little bit
46:05
of it and be like, yeah, you know, like the way this
46:07
is this is put together, you know. But no, it's I'm not
46:13
going to be adding this to my Blu Ray library, nor will I be
46:15
demanding a four K criteria Introction pod sacrifice, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
46:22
No, not quite there. All right, Well we're at about forty five
46:25
minutes past the hour as we're rounding third all these other analogies that aren't chess
46:30
related. But yeah, it's It's been a really interesting discussion because I felt
46:37
like it was really honest and frank discussion that talked a lot about the positives
46:40
and the negatives of this kind of middle of the road movie, which I'm
46:46
grateful I've watched. It was an like, like John said, I think
46:50
it was enjoyable, but was it a great movie? Was it, as
46:53
Tristan says, a tent pole? Stop bringing that back to me. No,
47:00
So I'm going to start with my rating and final thoughts. I'm gonna
47:06
give it a two, a solid two. It's if I was going back
47:12
to it, I probably would only go back to it in a Hey,
47:15
I want to show you this one scene from this one actor that I think
47:17
they did really well, you know, not really the whole picture in general.
47:22
I'm not gonna buy this movie or watch this movie again. Not that
47:25
that is a huge factor, but it tips the scale. But yeah,
47:31
it's definitely a I mean, I know, we jumped. Oh gosh,
47:37
what is it like thirteen years twelve thirteen years from last Samurai that we talked
47:42
about last week. Very different movie, very different pace. But yeah,
47:46
I think what you guys said. As far as the era it's in,
47:50
it's pre streaming, there's no DVDs to pick it up. It just falls
47:54
right into that gap and it just cannot recover and I'm gonna have to punch
48:00
the clock. So yeah, so we're gonna have all the chest analogies here.
48:05
So so John, give us your final thoughts if you would, but
48:08
you only have one minute, and I'm timing you. I don't know if
48:12
I have anything left in the tank for that. I've played my final gambit
48:16
and shared my thoughts, and I think I wind up being a little bit
48:22
nicer. But in all honesty, you know, it's not great, it's
48:25
not bad, it's just there. So I wind up with a two and
48:30
a half. I'm going to be like John, I'm going to give it
48:35
a two and a half. I wanted to give it a two, but
48:37
I started going through our ratings chart and I started comparing it to some other
48:43
movies that I've given it a too, and I'm like, oh no,
48:45
I didn't hate it like that. I didn't hate it like that. So
48:49
yeah, I think to me, like, I don't think this is a
48:52
like, I don't hate this movie. It's not like Windle and Wild or
48:57
whatever the hell that was was where I was just so angry after I watched
49:01
it this one, I was just like, man, why doesn't this win
49:04
the while with disappointing because we actually had expectations, Well what a what a
49:07
great tagline for the poster though, you know there you go, all right,
49:14
yeah this was So this is two and a half for me, two
49:17
and a half for John, and two four Darren. Now, Darren,
49:22
we've wrapped up on the House of Zwick and it's been a wild, wild
49:25
ride. But what are we doing next week? That's right, House of
49:29
Zwick, decade by decade from Glory to pon Sacrifice has been a great run.
49:34
But next week we're changing gears. We're going to cover the very short
49:38
directing career but still amazing Greta Gearwig, starting with Ladybird from twenty seventeen.
49:45
Here on, House Lights, Join the Revolution, Joined the Net. Polta