Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #87 Does the Bible Really Teach that Women Should be Silent in the Church?

Transcript

#87 Does the Bible Really Teach that Women Should be Silent in the Church? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  Perhaps women pastors and women preachers are the most obvious
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  evidence of churches
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  SPEAKER_03: rebelling against the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_03: Women who pastor
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  SPEAKER_03: Women who preach in the church are a disgrace,
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  and they openly reflect opposition to the clear demand of the
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  Word of God.
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  SPEAKER_03: This is flagrant disobedience.
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  SPEAKER_03: There is no case that can be made biblically for women preachers,
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  SPEAKER_03: period,
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  SPEAKER_03: paragraph,
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  SPEAKER_03: end of discussion.
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  SPEAKER_03: Those words come to us from Pastor John MacArthur.
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  SPEAKER_03: John MacArthur passed away in July of 2025.
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  SPEAKER_03: He was the voice of Grace For You Radio,
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  SPEAKER_03: was the pastor for 55 years at the Mega Church Grace Community Church,
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  SPEAKER_03: and he is considered to be one of the most prominent influencers of young
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  SPEAKER_03: evangelicals over the last 50 years.
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  SPEAKER_03: That is heavy stuff.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it is stuff that pervades much of Christianity today.
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  SPEAKER_03: And spoiler alert, we're going to suggest that it's not biblical.
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  SPEAKER_03: But it pervades so much of Christianity,
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  SPEAKER_03: as does the submission of women to their wives and so on and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so we're going to spend some time today looking at Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_03: And again, we've been trying to say on this podcast—
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  It's important for us always when we look at Scripture to read
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  the Bible the way it
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  SPEAKER_03: wants to be read,
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  which means that we need to understand it was written to a
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  particular time,
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  SPEAKER_03: to particular issues.
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  It was written in a very ancient world with an ancient mindset
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  and worldview.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we need to understand all of that,
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  SPEAKER_03: plus the types of literature,
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  SPEAKER_03: to understand what the Bible is saying to us.
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  SPEAKER_03: And this is one of those cases where
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  SPEAKER_03: far too many people,
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  SPEAKER_03: leaders like John MacArthur,
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  SPEAKER_03: have for whatever reason,
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  SPEAKER_03: and I can't get into his brain,
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  SPEAKER_03: for whatever reason,
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  SPEAKER_03: have twisted what Scripture is actually saying.
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  SPEAKER_03: And in this case,
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  SPEAKER_03: to the detriment of half of the world's population,
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  and really to the 60 to 70 percent of the people who sit in the
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  pews of church
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  SPEAKER_03: weekend after weekend.
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  SPEAKER_03: We've got with us today John Burgess.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hey there.
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  SPEAKER_03: We also have with us today Terry Summers,
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  SPEAKER_03: who,
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  SPEAKER_03: according to scripture,
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  SPEAKER_00: will remain silent throughout the entire podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that didn't work.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: All right.
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  SPEAKER_03: We're going to have to mute Terry.
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  SPEAKER_03: Already we have the third over.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the best thing ever right there.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: So this is a really important topic.
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  We're going to take our time on it today and we're going to
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  look at some things
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  SPEAKER_03: that are being said right now in culture about women through the lens of,
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  SPEAKER_03: I think,
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  SPEAKER_03: a misinterpretation of scripture.
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  And then we're going to tackle a couple of those biggies that
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  wives should submit
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  SPEAKER_03: to their husbands and that women should be silent in the church.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to do all of that
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  SPEAKER_03: In one podcast.
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  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's going to go on for about 24 hours, but in one podcast.
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  SPEAKER_03: And this is such important stuff.
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  SPEAKER_03: Look, I've got a daughter.
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  SPEAKER_03: I've got a granddaughter.
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  SPEAKER_03: I had a mother.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm married to a beautiful woman.
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  SPEAKER_03: These women are very, very important to me.
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  SPEAKER_03: I have a daughter-in-law.
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  SPEAKER_03: And Terry's important to me.
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  The women I have worked with over the years in church are
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  important to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: You have two sisters.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, I have two sisters.
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  SPEAKER_03: Do they count?
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  And so this is a topic that is important to me because it
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  breaks my heart when
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  people in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Bible say
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  that women are inferior
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  SPEAKER_03: to men and a woman's place is in the pew with her mouth shut.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that it doesn't reflect Jesus or the Bible at all.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so we want to try to get to that.
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  Before we do,
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  I thought it'd be interesting just to hear from the two of you
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  SPEAKER_03: Uh,
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  SPEAKER_03: and then I'll tell a little bit of my experiences with,
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  SPEAKER_03: uh,
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  SPEAKER_03: uh,
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  SPEAKER_03: women in the church and this whole controversy.
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  SPEAKER_03: I will say as a disclaimer,
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  SPEAKER_03: so people understand,
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  SPEAKER_03: I come from a denomination,
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  SPEAKER_03: the evangelical Lutheran church in America,
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  SPEAKER_03: that's been ordaining women for,
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  SPEAKER_03: for decades.
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  SPEAKER_03: This is not an issue in our denomination,
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  SPEAKER_03: maybe in some of our churches,
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  SPEAKER_03: but it is not in our denomination.
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  SPEAKER_03: Um,
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  But I wasn't always raised in an environment where we saw women
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  as equal to men and
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  SPEAKER_03: as having the opportunity to speak the word of God to males and females.
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  SPEAKER_03: So, Terry, we will start with you.
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  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, be careful if you go it on.
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  SPEAKER_03: We do have biblical precedent.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_03: What has been, as you were growing up.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: And of course, you've been a woman in ministry, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: In a certain way.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wait, circle what you said in a certain way.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because while you were talking, I didn't think about that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, I have.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: So you have been in ministry.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: You have used your abilities as an actress, as a writer.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: to bring the gospel to us.
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  But I suspect that people like John MacArthur and those who
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  believe women should
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  stay silent in church or shouldn't preach would not consider
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  what you do preaching.
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  SPEAKER_03: because you're doing drama, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: You wouldn't be a preacher, you're not an ordained pastor.
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  I would highly disagree with that and say that there were times
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  when I thought
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  after Terry got done with her thing that I shouldn't say
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  anything because she had
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  SPEAKER_03: brought Jesus to us and always did.
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  So talk a little bit about your relationship with that and
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  maybe because I know you
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  SPEAKER_03: were raised in a more conservative church.
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  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if they were sort of anti-female leadership groups
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  SPEAKER_03: What was your experience?
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  SPEAKER_03: And a woman in the church, what was your experience?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is your experience?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, to all of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I grew up,
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  SPEAKER_01: as we've shared before,
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  initially in a Southern Baptist denomination up until my junior
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  high years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, an American Baptist.
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  And there was a little bit of loosening with that idea,
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  even between those two denominations.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it seemed to be...
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of under,
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  SPEAKER_01: when I said circle that earlier,
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  it seemed to be within some parameters that might've been more
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  tolerable or
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  SPEAKER_01: whatever,
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  SPEAKER_01: as I look back.
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  But as I've said all along,
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  this podcast stretches me because I think I've been steeped in
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  the things that we're addressing and have addressed since the,
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  the,
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  the launch of your podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's always this tug and this sort of ruffling in my
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  SPEAKER_01: deep within that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that maybe I'm going to get in trouble,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: that I'm talking or listening to things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I,
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  SPEAKER_01: when,
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  SPEAKER_01: before we started today,
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  I thought I'm a little bit nervous because I have those old
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  things that want,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm very obedient as a person and I have that nature in me to comply.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that I also want to please.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I, but at the same time, even in my high school years, um,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have been plugged in,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you might say,
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  to writing and delivering the gospel message in a way that my
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  gifts and talents
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  SPEAKER_01: support.
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  SPEAKER_01: If I step back, if I step back and think about it, I get...
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  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like there's some,
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  SPEAKER_01: even in my application,
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  SPEAKER_01: wherever I am,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: coming to work with you,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe that was like,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's just like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you just laid down the door for me to enter up through to be used.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was so cool.
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  But I'd not really experienced that quite that way before,
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  but I have never experienced that.
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  in my rearing,
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  um,
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  uh,
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  uh,
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  a woman that was,
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  um,
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  ordained to,
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  um,
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  to preach.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: actually now I'm,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm reminded of one in,
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  SPEAKER_01: in the American Baptist church,
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  SPEAKER_01: but she was,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I say this,
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  SPEAKER_01: like it's an ex excusing it,
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  SPEAKER_01: but she was over missions and she never preached.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think the, uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: preach to a greater group that would include men.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: I,
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  SPEAKER_01: I do have questions on how you,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll let John talk,
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  SPEAKER_01: but,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  I do have questions about the differentiation that people even
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  go to if they're
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: John MacArthur,
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  SPEAKER_01: I do wonder what he would say in terms of,
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  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  women leading Bible studies or other ways that it might be a
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  little bit vague,
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  SPEAKER_01: but that they're still,
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  SPEAKER_01: quote unquote, sharing the gospel.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that's sort of the long and short of it with me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I will say I probably don't take offense just to be transparent.
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  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that people might think I'm weird,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I think the not taking offense comes from being reared in that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: I understand.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's just an understanding of the dysfunction of
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  SPEAKER_01: of a family if you come from one.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like that might be part of what allows me to go, Oh, okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't, I don't get agitated over it, but that's my.
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  SPEAKER_03: Before John jumps in, I want to answer it.
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  You asked about how would a John MacArthur look at a female
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  Bible study leader.
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  SPEAKER_03: And there actually is a story to answer that question.
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  SPEAKER_03: So he was celebrating his 50th anniversary in ministry.
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  And there was a panel discussion and he was on the panel with
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  some of his other pastor buddies.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: And they were all white males, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: And the moderator of the panel set up, we're going to play a little game.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's free association.
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  I'm going to give you a word and you're going to give me your
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  first response.
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  SPEAKER_03: So he started with John MacArthur.
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  SPEAKER_03: He said, here's my word to you, Beth Moore.
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  SPEAKER_03: Now Beth Moore,
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  SPEAKER_03: is a prominent female Bible study leader.
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  SPEAKER_03: Huge.
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  SPEAKER_03: Internationally known Bible study leader.
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  SPEAKER_03: When I was a pastor at Community Church of Joy,
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  SPEAKER_03: this was back many years ago,
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  SPEAKER_03: our women's ministry leader used her stuff all the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so she's very, very popular.
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  SPEAKER_03: Up until recently,
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  she finally left the Southern Baptist Church because they are
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  so recalcitrant when
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  SPEAKER_03: it comes to female leaders.
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  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, this guy said to John MacArthur, here's your words, Beth Moore.
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  SPEAKER_03: And this was MacArthur's response.
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  SPEAKER_03: Go home.
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  SPEAKER_03: And the place erupted into laughter and applause.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
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  SPEAKER_03: I just find that heartbreaking.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my gosh.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right?
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  SPEAKER_03: But that's just... That's not being biblical at that point.
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  SPEAKER_03: There's something else going on.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Sexism, patriarchy, whatever words you want to use.
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  SPEAKER_03: There's something else going on there.
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  SPEAKER_03: And these are the kind of things that we're talking about here.
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  SPEAKER_03: And what...
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  SPEAKER_03: What's interesting to me,
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  SPEAKER_03: Terry,
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  SPEAKER_03: is to hear your side of it and say,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: I was kind of raised with this.
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  So when you're raised with it,
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  you kind of think,
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  well,
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  maybe that's the way it is.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that so many females in that audience would laugh along with it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Rather than saying, wait a minute.
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  SPEAKER_03: Wait a minute.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: John.
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  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I mean, I absolutely agree with that.
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  SPEAKER_02: It definitely seems mean spirited.
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  SPEAKER_02: I would add that,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is one of those topics where I try to approach my discipleship,
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  SPEAKER_02: my analysis of the topic by parking my own personal feelings to the side,
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  SPEAKER_02: because all of this is very,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: sort of.
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  SPEAKER_02: The submissive language,
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  SPEAKER_02: the disparaged treatment of someone based upon their sex,
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  SPEAKER_02: all of that is pretty disgusting to me personally,
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  SPEAKER_02: but I want it to be not true because it's not true scripturally.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't want it.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I try to, you know, it's important.
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  SPEAKER_02: We all bring our biases.
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  And I'm reading this great book right now where he talks about
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  how we all bring our
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  SPEAKER_02: biases and we all bring them.
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  But I try to park that bias to the side as much as I can to
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  look at the scripture
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  SPEAKER_02: and analyze it and read thoughtful things about that scripture.
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  SPEAKER_02: rather than saying like, I don't want it to be true.
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't want it to be true.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I don't,
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't want it to be true that,
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  that this scripture is ambiguous enough that it can be used to
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  subject women to a
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  SPEAKER_02: different standard than men.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I really don't want it to be true because it's not true.
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  SPEAKER_02: Like that's what I want.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that's the first thing.
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  SPEAKER_02: That's the first thing I'm trying to say.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: That'll all be edited out of the podcast.
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  SPEAKER_02: So you don't have to worry about it.
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  SPEAKER_02: The number two thing I want to say is like,
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  SPEAKER_02: I,
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  SPEAKER_02: this is also one of those things where many people
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  undergird their faith with this understanding and and there's
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  there's there's
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  several topics like that one might be uh you know the story
• 14:41
  about knowing the ark
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  one might be how old the earth is and this might be also one of
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  those where people
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  plant this plant the flag and say well i understand even though
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  i don't like it
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  that god is saying that women can't do certain things and if it
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  and i'm really
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  asking everyone who's listening whether you're in that camp or
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  not to really be
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  SPEAKER_02: open enough
• 15:02
  to understand that you can be wrong about things and still have
• 15:06
  a faith that's
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  SPEAKER_02: undergirded by better things,
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  SPEAKER_02: perhaps.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I think a lot of times people will say,
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  SPEAKER_02: this has to be true,
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  SPEAKER_02: because if it's not true,
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  SPEAKER_02: then maybe none of the rest of it is true.
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  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's just a call to kind of dive into our podcast.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  It's well said,
• 15:25
  John,
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  because as we've been trying to say,
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  over 80-some podcasts,
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  SPEAKER_03: All three of us have a very high view of Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_03: Our faith is shaped by it.
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  But there are ways to read Scripture,
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  and then there are better ways to read Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_03: And there are some really horrific weaponizing ways to read Scripture.
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  And it's important for us to read the Bible as it was meant to
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  be read and to
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: understand what they were really saying when they wrote these words down,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: what Paul was really saying about submission,
• 16:01
  what Paul was really saying about a woman being silent in
• 16:05
  church and so on.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're going to do a little Bible study here.
• 16:09
  Before we do that,
• 16:10
  I want to go back to John MacArthur for two more quotes.
• 16:15
  And it may feel like I'm picking on the guy,
• 16:18
  but he was very public about this.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: And again,
• 16:21
  if he truly is one of the most influential voices for young
• 16:25
  evangelicals in the
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: world today,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: then it's fair game to say these are some things that he said.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that he said was,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: just because you can sell jewelry doesn't mean you should be preaching.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, glory.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: So why did I pick that quote out?
• 16:44
  Because that,
• 16:45
  along with his Beth Moore quote,
• 16:47
  says that this isn't a biblical issue.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's something else going on there for this man.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: He's angry.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: There's just an antagonism toward maybe a threat.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you were breaking down saying...
• 17:06
  good way to read scripture better way to read scripture a
• 17:09
  weaponizing way to read
• 17:10
  scripture then what immediately came to my mind is also there's
• 17:15
  a reader that may
• 17:16
  be weaponizing like the reader might be the weaponizer you know
• 17:20
  what i mean that
• 17:21
  and that's right like it could be the situation here too yes
• 17:26
  yeah i mean me just
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: giving my opinion
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things that I read at the beginning was he said this,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: there is no case that can be made biblically for women preachers,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: period,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: paragraph,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: end of discussion.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: So let me just take a few moments to answer that.
• 17:45
  Let's start with Miriam,
• 17:47
  who was the sister of Moses,
• 17:50
  who was a worship leader and a prophetess.
• 17:53
  which meant that by design,
• 17:56
  there were women or men who were under her leadership.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's Deborah,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: who was a prophet and the judge over Israel,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: not just over women,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: but all of Israel.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's Huldah, who was a prophetess to the King Josiah.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, she was God's voice to the King of Israel, a woman.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, John.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, keep going.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's Esther, who bravely risked her life to save her people.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Mary Magdalene, the first preacher of the gospel.
• 18:37
  Who was it that Jesus sent to tell the men the good news that
• 18:42
  Jesus was alive?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was a woman.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: She was the very first Christian preacher.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's Phoebe, who is referred to as a deacon by Paul.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: Deacons were church leaders.
• 18:56
  There's Priscilla,
• 18:57
  who was a teacher and a church planter,
• 19:02
  along with her husband,
• 19:03
  Aquila.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: We have the story of Philip's daughters, who are all prophetesses.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: We have the story of Yodia and Synthetia, who are co-workers.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: Paul called them co-workers in the gospel.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's Junia, who Paul refers to as an apostle.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Now, when we think of the apostles, we think of the big 12, right?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: So Junia is called an apostle by Paul.
• 19:32
  In answer to the statement,
• 19:34
  there is no biblical evidence for female pastors.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: There's a ton of it in Scripture.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus himself, as we know,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: was surrounded by male and female disciples.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: we often hear about the guys,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: but you've got Mary Magdalene,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: you've got Mary,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: the mother of Jesus,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: and others,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: female women who were around to support his ministry financially.
• 20:02
  Part of what made his ministry so scandalous was the way that
• 20:06
  he interacted with women.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: You have him siding with the wrong kinds of women all the time, right?
• 20:14
  He's died with the woman caught in adultery,
• 20:16
  sides with the woman at the well.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: He calls Mary Magdalene.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: He's good friends with Mary and Martha.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: He defends the woman who anoints his feet prior to his death.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Paul says we're neither male nor female.
• 20:30
  And that doesn't mean he's saying there's no difference between
• 20:33
  men and women.
• 20:34
  He's saying that as males and females created in the image of
• 20:37
  God,
• 20:37
  we are all equal.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: equal in the eyes of God.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: in the very first book of the Bible,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: we talked about this a while ago,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: the Bible says that God created us male and female in God's image.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Males were created in God's image.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Females were created in God's image.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Then in the second creation story,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: we have Adam,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: and God says it's not good for a man to be alone.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: So God created Eve to be Adam's helper.
• 21:10
  And sometimes people read that and say,
• 21:11
  yeah,
• 21:11
  see,
• 21:12
  she's there to support him.
• 21:13
  But the word helper is used of only one other person in the
• 21:18
  Bible,
• 21:19
  and that's the Holy Spirit.
• 21:24
  So this isn't just,
• 21:26
  yeah,
• 21:27
  the woman was created to pick up the man's mess.
• 21:31
  The woman was created like the Spirit to help guide the man
• 21:35
  into the things of God.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's the status that a woman has in Scripture.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: So with that,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: let's look at these two troublesome passages,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: and we're going to read them,
• 21:51
  and then I'm going to read an excerpt from a book I'll tell you
• 21:55
  about here in a
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: moment for each of them,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: just to help us understand.
• 21:58
  Again,
• 21:58
  the point is,
• 22:00
  when we talk about this,
• 22:02
  as John's saying,
• 22:03
  as Christian people,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Not only do we want to say,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: wait,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: men and women are equal,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: but we want to be able to say,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: what does Scripture have to say about our relationships with each other?
• 22:14
  So the one that you hear oftentimes is that wives need to
• 22:18
  submit to their husbands.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: So Terry, we're going to look at that passage.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: This is from Ephesians.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Chapter 5, starting at verse 21, I believe, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I see that.
• 22:34
  So why don't you read that for us through to the end of the
• 22:36
  chapter and we'll get a sense of it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Wait a minute.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Could you read that verse again?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: 21, and further submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, who's supposed to submit to one another?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: The reader?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: One another, meaning out of, yes, the reader.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: so in other words,
• 23:11
  we're all supposed to submit to one another is what Paul says
• 23:14
  in this very first
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: verse.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: All right, just wanted to make sure we didn't miss that.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: All right, okay, go ahead.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: You scared me.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was in trouble.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
• 23:35
  For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of
• 23:39
  the church.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: He is the savior of his body, the church.
• 23:45
  As the church submits to Christ,
• 23:48
  so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.
• 23:53
  For husbands,
• 23:55
  this means love your wives,
• 23:57
  just as Christ loved the church.
• 24:00
  He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean,
• 24:05
  washed by the cleansing of God's word.
• 24:09
  He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church
• 24:16
  without a spot or
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: wrinkle or any other blemish.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, she will be holy and without fault.
• 24:26
  In the same way,
• 24:28
  husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own
• 24:33
  bodies.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself.
• 24:40
  No one hates his own body,
• 24:42
  but feeds and cares for it,
• 24:45
  just as Christ cares for the church.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we are members of his body.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: As the scriptures say,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: and the two are united into one.
• 25:02
  This is a great mystery,
• 25:05
  but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are
• 25:09
  one.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: again I say,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: each man must love his wife as he loves himself,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: and the wife must respect her husband.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 25:24
  So if we were to summarize this passage,
• 25:26
  it would be submit to each other.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: Wives, submit to your husbands.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: Husbands, submit to your wives.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's how we would summarize that passage.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I'll use this kind of different language.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he says, love your wife.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: But that's what he's talking about here.
• 25:44
  He's really talking about what does love look like in a
• 25:47
  relationship together?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: I want to point out a couple things here.
• 25:52
  Notice that he takes three verses to talk to the wives and nine
• 25:58
  verses to talk to the husbands.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: So when you read that,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: you think,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: who's got the bigger problem,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: the women or the men,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: in trying to figure out what Paul is saying?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact that Paul...
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: says nine times to the men,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: love your wives,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: and to the women,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: a couple times,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: tells you that this was an issue in Roman households back in Paul's day.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to flesh that out here in a minute.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: But I wanted to see what you guys see in this passage.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: John, what'd you see?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: whenever I read this passage,
• 26:37
  I automatically think to myself that Paul would have been more
• 26:41
  artful in this
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: passage had he been a married man instead of a single man.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, explain that.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: I find that very intriguing.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so this is what I do.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think we all get tripped up on submit.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of people can get tripped up on submit.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can get tripped up on the husband's the leader of the wife,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: like Jesus is the leader of the church.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I like to do some work around that.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: But the first place I went,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Tim,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: one of the first places I went was,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: and if it's okay with you,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just do...
• 27:21
  the message 21 through 28 really quickly do we have time for
• 27:27
  that yep out of
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: respect for christ be courteously reverent to one another
• 27:32
  Wives,
• 27:33
  understand and support your husbands in a way that show your
• 27:36
  support for Christ.
• 27:37
  The husband provides leadership to his wife the way Christ does
• 27:40
  to the church,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: not by domineering,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: but by cherishing.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: So just as the church submits to Christ as he exercises such leaderships,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: wives should likewise submit to their husbands.
• 27:52
  and then i focus on this a lot because it's it's as you said uh
• 27:57
  there's a lot of
• 27:58
  stuff here for husbands husbands go all out in your love for
• 28:01
  your wives exactly as
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: christ did for the church a love marked by giving not getting
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Christ's love makes the church whole.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: His words evoke her beauty.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Everything he does and says is designed to bring the best out of her,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: dressing her in dazzling white silk,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: radiant with holiness.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that is how husbands ought to love their wives.
• 28:23
  They're really doing themselves a favor since they're already,
• 28:26
  quote,
• 28:27
  one in marriage.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: So the message is not a translation.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's something else.
• 28:33
  But I do like sometimes where it expands upon the meaning and
• 28:37
  it helps me get to
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: reading the Bible the way the Bible wants to be read.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: A couple of things to notice here.
• 28:45
  First of all,
• 28:46
  there is nothing in this passage that said women have to stay
• 28:49
  home.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: That wives need to stay home.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: If wives want to stay home, great.
• 28:58
  If wives want to be out in the workforce,
• 29:00
  there's nothing in Scripture that says they can't.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's not in here.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: What it does say,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: husbands,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: is support your wives and love them the way that Jesus loves the church.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: So how did Jesus love the church?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, he always wanted what was best for the church, right?
• 29:18
  The other thing here that I think that's important to
• 29:20
  understand is the word submit.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: We always think of it as a passive word, a doormat word.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: Submission is a power word.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: It is a commitment that I am making to my spouse.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: I am making a deliberate decision that I am going to support my spouse.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to serve my spouse.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to love my spouse.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's what it means to submit.
• 29:43
  Not to give myself up and lose my identity and do whatever my
• 29:47
  husband or my wife says.
• 29:49
  It means I am going to love my spouse in such a way that I
• 29:54
  bring out the best in him or her.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm committed to him or her.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to make this thing look like Jesus wants it to look like.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: Two people created in the image of God, treating each other as equals.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's what the word means.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: let me read for you,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: and this is kind of a longer reading,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: but I think it's really helpful to understand context.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: This is from a book called Better Ways to Read the Bible.
• 30:18
  I'm holding it up to the screen because everybody who is
• 30:21
  listening can see that.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Better Ways to Read the Bible by Zach Lambert.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 30:32
  I'm going to read about a page and a half of his stuff because
• 30:35
  he's giving us some
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: really important context for this passage.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Paul is teaching mutual submission, not one-sided subjugation.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Paul goes on to give instructions for how husbands should submit,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: how wives should submit,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: and how children should submit.
• 30:50
  What is so radical about this passage of Scripture when we
• 30:52
  understand the context
• 30:53
  is that Paul is mimicking the Roman household codes that
• 30:58
  existed at the time.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: but he's changing them in a significant way.
• 31:03
  You see,
• 31:04
  the Roman household codes had submission instructions only for
• 31:08
  women and children.
• 31:10
  The men could do whatever they wanted because Romans believed
• 31:14
  women and children
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: were ontologically inferior.
• 31:18
  Remember when I said,
• 31:19
  why did Paul have to do three times the amount of verses?
• 31:23
  Because he's saying something that hadn't been said before in
• 31:25
  that culture.
• 31:27
  Here is how second century Roman lawyer Gaius describes the
• 31:30
  state of affairs in his
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: famous work Institutes.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Quote, the public law of Rome did not recognize women at all.
• 31:37
  Women were answerable for their misdeeds to the family judge,
• 31:40
  the father,
• 31:41
  or husband.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Men were punished by the state,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: but women had to be given over to the private jurisdiction of the family.
• 31:48
  It should be noted that nothing could be granted in the way of
• 31:51
  justice to those
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: under power,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: i.e.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: slaves, children, and wives.
• 31:56
  For it is reasonable to conclude that since these persons own
• 31:59
  no property,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: they are incompetent to claim anything in point of law.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Let me just say quickly,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: what he's saying is,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: if the wife has done something,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: her judge is her husband.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: And how unbiased is that going to be?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: What kind of justice is she going to get?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's like if a slave does something and the slave owner is the judge.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: There's no justice, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: So that's end of quote.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Slaves, here's Lambert again.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Slaves, children, and women were unable to make any legal claim.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: They were the property of the husband or father.
• 32:34
  And this patriarch was given free reign to be judged,
• 32:36
  jury,
• 32:37
  even executioner.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: We have documented evidence of husbands legally executing their wives for
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: everything from infidelity to drinking wine without permission.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now, Gaius didn't come up with these categories.
• 32:48
  They were longstanding household divisions in Greco-Roman
• 32:51
  culture dating back to
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Socrates,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Plato,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Aristotle,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: and beyond.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: In fact,
• 32:57
  many biblical scholars believe that Paul borrowed much of his
• 33:00
  language from
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: published copies of these secular household codes.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Here is Aristotle's version,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: quote,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: In a complete household,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: there are three relations,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: that of the master to the slave,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: of the husband to the wife,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: of the parent to the child.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: What is and ought to be the character of each of these?
• 33:19
  The master rules over the slave despotically,
• 33:22
  the husband over the wife constitutionally,
• 33:25
  But in neither case do they take turns of ruling and being
• 33:28
  ruled after the manner
• 33:29
  of constitutional states because the difference between them is
• 33:33
  permanent.
• 33:34
  The rule of the father or elder over the child is like that of
• 33:37
  the king over subjects.
• 33:38
  In other words,
• 33:39
  husbands and slave owners rule over their slaves and their
• 33:42
  women.
• 33:43
  The state takes responsibility for any misdoings of the men
• 33:47
  because they're superior.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: So last two paragraphs.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: Paul disagrees.
• 33:52
  In the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the new
• 33:54
  community,
• 33:54
  Jesus has established the
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Paul disagrees.
• 34:21
  In the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the new
• 34:23
  community Jesus has
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: established based on the mutuality and flourishing of all people,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Paul believes men need to be submissive too.
• 34:33
  In fact,
• 34:34
  Paul says men should be willing to lay down their lives for
• 34:37
  women and children.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: So in that context, you can see just how radical Paul is here.
• 34:46
  He is taking on the social norms of the day that make women
• 34:49
  inferior and he is
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: elevating them to a position of equality.
• 34:54
  This is not a passage that says women or wives should submit to
• 34:57
  their husbands
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: because they're inferior to their husbands.
• 35:00
  This is really a passage written to men to say your wives are
• 35:04
  created in the image
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: of God and you need to love them the way Jesus loves the church.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's the point of the passage.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you can see how it has been twisted and misused and weaponized
• 35:17
  to hold women down and to rob them of their God-given worth and
• 35:20
  value as human beings.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 35:26
  So that's the fuel behind our friends that feel that way,
• 35:35
  like a John MacArthur.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: that is essentially,
• 35:38
  because someone that committed to make those kinds of even ugly
• 35:44
  statements
• 35:45
  are smart enough to have something behind them that they're
• 35:49
  going to refer to
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: whether,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: do you know what I mean?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it is?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm not going to speak for John MacArthur.
• 35:57
  What I am going to say is behind that kind of bad theology is
• 36:04
  really insecure men
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: who are seeking power over women and
• 36:11
  and use scripture to justify their insecurities and their need
• 36:15
  for power men who
• 36:20
  devalue women are little men with fragile egos and they will
• 36:29
  grasp at anything to
• 36:30
  make themselves feel better and they will misuse scripture to
• 36:34
  do that as i have i
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: said that plainly enough
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we're talking denominations too.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 36:44
  And all of these denominations that are anti-women are being
• 36:48
  run by small men.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Now, this is Tim Wright saying this.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying, yes, if you're listening to me, men, you're small.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's time to grow a pair of biblical insights.
• 37:01
  Okay.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: Boy, you rescued that.
• 37:06
  Those biblical insights are men and women are created in the
• 37:09
  image of God and men
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: were called to lift women up,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: not put them down.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's the pair.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: That is intense.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like as in lovingly, like love intense, you know.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Let's move on to the second one.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: And John, you're going to read this one for us.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: I can't remember what verses I gave you, but go ahead.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: I have 1 Timothy 2, 8 through 13.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: 1 Timothy 2, 8 through 13.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: In every place of worship,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I want men to pray with holy hands,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: lifted up to God,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: free from anger and controversy.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I want women to be modest in their appearance.
• 38:02
  They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw
• 38:05
  attention to
• 38:06
  themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or
• 38:10
  pearls or expensive
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: clothes.
• 38:12
  For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves
• 38:15
  attractive by the
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: good things they do.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Women should learn quietly and submissively.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: I do not let women teach men or have authority over them.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: Let them listen quietly.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: What are you reading from?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: New Living Translation.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 38:39
  I'm going to point something out here that will show you just
• 38:41
  how skewed this can be.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Read verse 11 for us again.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now, yeah, read verse 11.
• 38:50
  11 in the New Living Translation says,
• 38:53
  women should learn quietly and submissively.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: The word is not women.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: The word is woman.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: A woman, a woman should learn in silence and with full submission.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: She is to keep silent.
• 39:14
  Now,
• 39:14
  this is really important if we're going to understand what this
• 39:17
  passage is saying.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Really important.
• 39:21
  He starts off by saying,
• 39:22
  I desire that in every place men should pray,
• 39:27
  lifting up holy hands.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then he gets very specific in verse 11.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: Let a woman learn in silence.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: So let me, this is a passage now, right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's been used by many,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: many people to say that women should not speak in church,
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: that women should not,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: they can do Bible study with each other if they want,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: but they should never speak over men.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so let me once again,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: refer to our good friend,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: Tim,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: or I mean,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Zach Lambert from his book,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: Better Ways to Read the Bible.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: And here's the context.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: This letter is written to Timothy for a very specific reason.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: False teachers are leading people away from Jesus in the Ephesian church.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: They are not promoting faith and love, the two most important things.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: This is the singular point of the letter.
• 40:20
  Timothy is tasked with combating false teachers and false
• 40:23
  teachings in the church in Ephesus.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: In chapter two, he begins to outline what that should look like.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then he quotes what John just said.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Men should pray, lifting up holy hands.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Women to dress modestly with decency and propriety,
• 40:50
  adorning themselves not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or
• 40:52
  pearls or expensive
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: clothes.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: I do not permit a woman to teach or assume authority over a man.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: She must be quiet.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: These verses come with a myriad of interpretive options,
• 41:09
  as this has been one of the most highly disputed passages in
• 41:11
  church history.
• 41:13
  But using the context lens means understanding it as a part of
• 41:16
  a larger subject
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: matter of Paul's letter.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: When we do this, the best interpretive option becomes clear.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: These verses are addressing specific false teachers and false teachings,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: Biblical scholars have surmised the following.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: One, there were men who were using prayer inappropriately.
• 41:38
  So Timothy needed to require all the men in Ephesus Church to
• 41:41
  lift their hands when they prayed.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: There were women flaunting their wealth by dressing immodestly.
• 41:47
  So Timothy was given very specific instructions on how these
• 41:51
  women should dress.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: And finally,
• 41:54
  there was a female false teacher who was claiming authority
• 41:58
  over a specific man in
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: the Ephesian church,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: and she needed to be corrected.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Notice that verses 11 and 12 are the only verses that use singular nouns.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right, John?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: We have a mistranslation in NID.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: A woman...
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: should learn in quietness and full submission.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: She must be quiet.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: So a strong interpretive option,
• 42:24
  considering both the context of this passage and the other
• 42:27
  writings of the New
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: Testament,
• 42:29
  is that there was one female false teacher who was claiming
• 42:32
  authority over a
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: specific man in the Ephesian church,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: and Timothy was told to put a stop to it.
• 42:36
  It's impossible to know the exact situation being addressed
• 42:41
  with this false teacher
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: since we are so far removed from it.
• 42:44
  But I do believe we can unmistakably know what this passage
• 42:47
  does not mean.
• 42:50
  It does not mean that all men everywhere are required to lift
• 42:53
  up their hands when they pray.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: No one practiced it then, and no one practices it now.
• 43:01
  And there is no other reference to that being a requirement for
• 43:03
  prayer in anyone else's Bible.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: Anywhere else in the Bible, sorry.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: It does not mean that women cannot speak.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Again, no one practiced this then.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: You have outlined above.
• 43:14
  Paul sends arguably his most important letter,
• 43:18
  Romans,
• 43:19
  with a deacon named Phoebe.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: And she taught the contents of his letter to the church in Rome.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we know that there were female teachers.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: Last, it does not mean that only women who give birth will be saved.
• 43:32
  That makes no sense and contradicts everything the New
• 43:35
  Testament teaches about salvation.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: No one...
• 43:39
  including the staunchest paper of the pastor interprets this
• 43:43
  passage literally.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: In other words,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: if you interpreted this literally,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: that means that every time you had prayer in your church,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: every man should have his hand in the air.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And if they don't, you're breaking scripture.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: And to use John MacArthur's language,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: women who do not raise their hand,
• 43:59
  or men who do not raise their hands in church while praying are
• 44:04
  a disgrace.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: If we're taking John MacArthur...
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: So nobody says all.
• 44:13
  So why is it that we take this one little phrase about a woman
• 44:18
  and then suddenly
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: make it general for all women?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Paul is addressing a specific issue in the church.
• 44:28
  Yet some folks have taken these specific instructions about
• 44:31
  specific issues among a
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: specific group of people.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: So this is why context matters.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: This is why Bible study matters.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is why translation matters.
• 44:48
  Because we can take something that was meant for one experience
• 44:54
  in the Christian
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: church and suddenly say it's for everyone.
• 44:59
  yeah yeah yeah we've said a couple of times on the podcast at
• 45:05
  least that you know
• 45:08
  there's real importance in studying this stuff in community and
• 45:12
  and I'm I mean I'm
• 45:13
  frustrated that the New Living Translation says women should
• 45:16
  learn quietly the new
• 45:17
  international version says a woman should learn in quietness
• 45:21
  and that causes
• 45:22
  confusion in my brain trying to figure this out but one of the
• 45:26
  solutions to that is
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: the community that you're building around you while you're studying this,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: because the,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: God loves that community.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: He wants the community to bring additional smarts in.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: Terry,
• 45:42
  I'm going to assume that this is probably the first time you've
• 45:44
  heard that
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: particular interpretation of that verse.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: And what does it do for you?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's still... No, no, no.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just...
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hear what John just said about women and knowing...
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: he stated confusion.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that I'm confused,
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm saying that I hear...
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I see...
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm struggling a little bit towards...
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm...
• 46:28
  a person that looks for the opposite side of understanding in
• 46:36
  order to anchor the
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: side that I'm trying to grasp.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that I'm confused per se about the new or the clarity of it.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just I'm still wondering about
• 46:56
  translation i'm still so why it gets my that gets muddy for me
• 47:03
  but not not um not
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: in a way that i'm not appreciating i just go back
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: and look at what I might have previously read or known or heard.
• 47:15
  And anyway,
• 47:17
  I don't know that that sounded too muddy,
• 47:19
  but you know what I mean?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just, that's I, I want things to be clear.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: I like clarity.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: I like my life.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so when something doesn't,
• 47:30
  feel clear all the way around then i go well why is that or you
• 47:34
  know what i mean
• 47:35
  yeah yeah so i we we're we're gonna wrap this up because we i
• 47:41
  think we've we've
• 47:42
  kind of at least laid out a case here's the clarity the
• 47:46
  scripture offers yeah male
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: and female were created in the image of god
• 47:53
  For Paul,
• 47:54
  in Jesus,
• 47:55
  there is neither male nor female,
• 47:56
  meaning males and females are equal.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: One is not superior to the other.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: In Scripture,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: Old Testament and New Testament,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: women played prominent roles in bringing God's Word to men and women.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: They served as prophetesses.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: They served as deacons.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: They served on Jesus' ministry team.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: They helped start churches.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: Nowhere in Scripture are women devalued.
• 48:27
  Nowhere in Scripture are women to stay home and live under the
• 48:31
  leadership of men.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: When we look at these passages of Scripture,
• 48:36
  we always have to remember that they're speaking to specific
• 48:40
  instances and specific
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: situations.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: And they are speaking radically.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: In the Roman culture,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: in the surrounding cultures around the Hebrew people,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: women were property.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: And along comes this faith,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: this Jewish faith,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: and then the Christian movement that says women aren't property.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_03: Women are the image of God and are highly valued and highly loved.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the clarity.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: However we read Scripture,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: if we read anything that contradicts that,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: we're misreading Scripture.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I just want to interject a big thanks to Pastor Zach Lambert.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's L-A-M-B-E-R-T, Better Ways to Read the Bible.
• 49:28
  I mean,
• 49:29
  honestly,
• 49:29
  I have highlighted more of the book than not highlighted at
• 49:32
  this point.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: I should have just assumed I was going to highlight it all.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just astonishingly good and highly recommend.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I will put that in the notes.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everybody.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: Did I cut out, John?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: Just a little bit.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: Once the music started, yeah.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm holding it up.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm holding the book up to the screen.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: Can you all, all of you who are listening, can you see that?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: Better ways to read the Bible.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: Zach Lambert.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Tim Wright along with Terry Summers.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: John D. Burgess.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: We'll be back with you next time.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.