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Is the Office Era Over? · EU-Startups Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You are now listening
• 0:01
  Speaker 0: to the EU Startups podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this episode of The EU Startup's Podcast.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: as always I'm your host, Ditson Garcia, the newsletter here at EU startups.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: today a chat with.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Yob is the CEO and co-founder Of the San Francisco based company remote not even though it's based in San Francisco.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Remote originally was founded by a Dutch founder Yob And as name implies hires all across the world.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Its own product offering really is to help other companies in their talent acquisition process, whether it's the hiring weather.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: It's the stock options.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: how does set up remote work?
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: found the company and even how he sees the impact of heavy regulatory hiring spaces such as the EU versus America.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: So I hope you're looking forward to that, it's coming right up!
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Good good.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much for coming on.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to our chat today.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I mean i always am Looking forward to these chats because they're Always just so interesting for me personally.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: but when it comes To kind of this remote work You know globalization Of employee Attitude.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: that's not something That we've really covered yet.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: So and look in here from you And Just with that in mind why don't you give a little Kind of a spiel about who you are?
• 1:58
  Speaker 0: Yeah So I'm Jupp, I am Dutch which is why the strange name.
• 2:03
  Speaker 0: Yeah i'm the co-founder and CEO of remote already for seven a half years now And yeah live in The Netherlands where have two small kids with a nice wife.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Very Nice very nice well uh...I guess kind Of Where we should begin With this whole topic?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: And I think it's really what you can Begin with any of these.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Is that just Kind of I want to hear about What first led to the creation of remote.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: What was that moment you thought yourself, there's a gap here?
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: There is something I can approach and have the right skill set to approach
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: it?".
• 2:41
  Speaker 0: Yeah!
• 2:42
  Speaker 0: Well...I didn't know whether i had the right skillset or not but before Remote I worked at a company called GitLab which built software for developers fully remote, so we were fully distributed.
• 2:59
  Speaker 0: We hired people in over sixty different countries across the world and really at that time there weren't a lot of companies who had worked hand-in way And so... The expectation is it was difficult for some reason But what we found out wasn't all to work difficult to work remote, distributed with people from around the world.
• 3:19
  Speaker 0: Actually one thing that's hard was actually hiring people legally but paying them.
• 3:24
  Speaker 0: All other parts are very obvious.
• 3:28
  Speaker 0: What I realized is that for the people we hired, We gave them an opportunity they previously didn't have access to.
• 3:34
  Speaker 0: A lot of people who were hired had no great jobs in their direct environment.
• 3:38
  Speaker 0: so they either moved somewhere even though there are skilled talented people with valuable skills but many don't want to move or can't do it for a variety reasons and basically give them opportunities because they did not have access before.
• 3:54
  Speaker 0: Now given how hard To actually pay those people, the barrier for other companies to do the same was still relatively high even if you get over a whole working from distance kind of idea.
• 4:07
  Speaker 0: And so I figured well somebody has to solve it and together with Marcelo my co-founder we decided to try to solve this.
• 4:14
  Speaker 0: so far is good.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Well in preparation for this episode came across blog post of yours when were going create remote And you're moving out of your previous company.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: You talked about your daughter's birth and how that experience kind of highlighted to use the necessity, humanity behind having a flexible work environment?
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about it?
• 4:41
  Speaker 0: Yeah so my daughter as well as son they were both born prematurely.
• 4:46
  Speaker 0: when her child was born premature we have to stay in hospital for quite awhile.
• 4:50
  Speaker 0: My daughter was three weeks my son two months at the hospital.
• 4:54
  Speaker 0: They're now happy healthy kids.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: It's good to hear
• 4:57
  Speaker 0: yeah, it was great.
• 4:58
  Speaker 0: I mean they don't know that we still wake up in the middle of night.
• 5:04
  Speaker 0: You Know i never really understood why?
• 5:08
  Speaker 0: It Was important to be In The office right like if you are doing a job is purely on the computer At least not five days a week and so enjoying some form Of flexibility i think Is something That Employers can do quite easily.
• 5:26
  Speaker 0: It's just a relatively straightforward decision to make, and so yeah that certainly was one of the driving factors I think.
• 5:33
  Speaker 0: having said that i think them The greater advantage we see this today as well like working way We do is not necessarily about working in an office or not.
• 5:42
  Speaker 0: it's more About you know for companies being able To hire people all over the world then For those People to have access to great opportunities.
• 5:49
  Speaker 0: That's really the Greater One Right?
• 5:51
  Speaker 0: Because I think even if you work from an office, it can give employees flexibility and create great benefits etc.
• 5:56
  Speaker 0: And for most people they don't have access to opportunities at all right!
• 6:01
  Speaker 0: So in some ways those things go hand-in-hand because better employers tend to get better benefits as well.
• 6:09
  Speaker 0: Ultimately looking back its not so much that with remote we created a whole bunch of remote companies.
• 6:15
  Speaker 0: the majority of our customers worked from offices.
• 6:18
  Speaker 0: rather make it very easy to hire and pay people from all over the planet independent of where those people are.
• 6:26
  Speaker 0: And I ultimately think that there's also a better good so we can do in the world, but it is great.
• 6:32
  Speaker 0: if you like me work remotely enjoy freedom comes with that actually creating opportunities.
• 6:40
  Speaker 0: around this day
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: When you're talking about, the greater good and humanity in kind of naturalness that is to give these people space on a right-to-work way they find it best.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: But I've also read your background as a neuroscientist... You have not think that's connected there somehow because you need an understanding here about how people think or address their own lives.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: That has had play into the ways remote has turned out and guiding philosophy.
• 7:12
  Speaker 0: I mean, i would love to say that's true.
• 7:17
  Speaker 0: In neuroscience is worried about how the rain processes information and you know by now my time outside of science as far outclips eclipsed my time inside of science so I can't say it.
• 7:30
  Speaker 0: That's the case.
• 7:32
  Speaker 0: working in science...I loved it!
• 7:34
  Speaker 0: The work itself was great.
• 7:36
  Speaker 0: It teaches how to be extremely critical and analytical, it teaches you great statistics.
• 7:42
  Speaker 0: And depending on the field grade math in my case also a lot of programming.
• 7:45
  Speaker 0: so those were great.
• 7:47
  Speaker 0: You have that high agency because as scientists we don't have a lot support.
• 7:50
  Speaker 0: So I think its good school.
• 7:53
  Speaker 0: develop good habits.
• 7:54
  Speaker 0: That will help you especially if your build your own company not necessarily related To doing good in world.
• 8:01
  Speaker 0: although i do thing many scientist I would say majority people with vast majority they do hope to make a positive dent in the universe, right?
• 8:12
  Speaker 0: Which as society is something very real because for money you're not going to do it.
• 8:19
  Speaker 0: Well
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: yeah let's hope so well that then was there a difference or at least an impact in making that change from science academia into startups.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: cause at GitLab, five minute right.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: So you know what was that change like?
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Because I think there's got to be many listeners who are kind of maybe in the pipeline of university projects and some kind of University accelerator And they're curious as to what that jump is from academia.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: and You know a university controlled work too then going into the entrepreneurial world.
• 8:59
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean it's night and day.
• 9:02
  Speaker 0: And in my case actually i dropped out of my PhD or Actually...I was about to start.
• 9:07
  Speaker 0: it then never properly started.
• 9:08
  Speaker 0: it formally started.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: What is your phd going to be on?
• 9:13
  Speaker 0: On information processing in the brain which Is what I was already.
• 9:16
  Speaker 0: I was just continuing In the same lab that I was working with them with a label PhD.
• 9:20
  Speaker 0: Then I got like a two hundred year old salary increase in potential.
• 9:25
  Speaker 0: if I were too We're still almost nothing because I went from seven hundred to nine hundred year a month.
• 9:33
  Speaker 0: So, i actually started the startup and it went nowhere.
• 9:36
  Speaker 0: then I had to find a job that ended up at kidlab.
• 9:38
  Speaker 0: but The difference is really stark right between academia And if you're an academia they call it industry which always felt very funny going into work in industry.
• 9:49
  Speaker 0: But yeah It's very, very different.
• 9:55
  Speaker 0: But in academia you struggle a lot with money for almost any kind of research that your doing.
• 10:04
  Speaker 0: and outside if it is much more performance driven there to some degree theres less job security.
• 10:11
  Speaker 0: but at the same time you can have greater ownership impact on things.
• 10:18
  Speaker 0: In both cases its highly varies.
• 10:20
  Speaker 0: where are Right?
• 10:21
  Speaker 0: companies are wildly.
• 10:23
  Speaker 0: there's incredibly high variance in how they are ran and how They work, then had to work on the inside To some degree.
• 10:29
  Speaker 0: that's true in academia.
• 10:30
  Speaker 0: But the team is very structured in a particular way That you don't have outside of that?
• 10:34
  Speaker 0: And so Yeah I know it Is very different.
• 10:39
  Speaker 0: if your doubting between the two i would say It's easy to leave academia to enter the workplace, like to enter corporations.
• 10:52
  Speaker 0: It's extremely hard.
• 10:54
  Speaker 0: once you're out of academia go back into it.
• 10:57
  Speaker 0: and so if your doubting its a trapdoor decision in one direction Like Out Of Academia Into The Rest Of The World You Cannot Go Back.
• 11:08
  Speaker 0: But Once Your Working A Job Is Very Hard To Go Back Into Academia.
• 11:11
  Speaker 0: Its Not Impossible.
• 11:12
  Speaker 0: This is Extremely Hard.
• 11:13
  Speaker 0: So I Would Factor That Into Making Decision Going Either Direction.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, well so we've covered your early life here.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Your beginnings.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: and now let's move a little bit more into just kind of the work that remote does And something I read That was interesting don't remember where i read it if there is one of your personal posts or through remote but they talked about how You saw in The company saw at the moment that an employee Was given the ability to remote-work.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: They automatically moved closer To family And I thought that was kind of an interesting tidbit there, and just curious about what that tells you from where your sitting.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: About the traditional approach to working in office going into metropolitan city?
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Where work is a hub for people?
• 12:00
  Speaker 0: Yeah really if i were give my great conclusion it's as simple.
• 12:12
  Speaker 0: you can make all sorts of statements about particular anecdotes like this one, which I always thought was really interesting.
• 12:17
  Speaker 0: But there's an equal amount or a large number people that do the other direction right?
• 12:21
  Speaker 0: They get great job and they move to places where we want it be.
• 12:24
  Speaker 0: but my conclusion from these years is every single day say Great People are everywhere!
• 12:31
  Speaker 0: They're over so... It isn't much how we should operate companies or how we should structure work.
• 12:44
  Speaker 0: Because again, I think there's like great variance in how companies do this with great variants and success as well right?
• 12:50
  Speaker 0: The most successful companies in the world are mostly office-based companies And then they're great outliers when it comes to remote workers.
• 12:58
  Speaker 0: Well on everything in the middle.
• 13:00
  Speaker 0: But if one thing is true for almost any great company They tend to source people from all over the world And that has never changed.
• 13:13
  Speaker 0: That continues to be true, and again there's reasons why people are in particular places for good or bad.
• 13:21
  Speaker 0: but if you want to hire the best people then you cannot just focus on one spot of your world.
• 13:27
  Speaker 0: You're gonna find a lot great people But it's not going to find all the great people because they were all over.
• 13:34
  Speaker 0: It seems very simple.
• 13:35
  Speaker 0: like is something I keep getting confirmed
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Though you must still run into the wall and I say this out of personal experience.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I've held a few jobs now That i've had bosses who are very okay with remote work, have had bosses were not ok at all With remote work.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: And uh You know what?
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: where do you?
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I mean obviously you go out in support for more work.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: It's it's in your name.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: there is no point asking that question but I guess some more in-depth questions.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: how has Your kind of attitude towards those perspectives changed over time?
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Do you see that as just to close minded?
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: No, you don't understand that great people are everywhere and you need to open yourself up To them.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: or do see the logic behind these kind of heart stances?
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Of no-no People need to be in the office.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: You really take full advantage of the work That they're doing.
• 14:21
  Speaker 0: yeah So I am not at all dogmatic about this.
• 14:23
  Speaker 0: um i think date running a company is very difficult And i think that companies should work The way They believe Is best right.
• 14:32
  Speaker 0: and Um so i'm Not At All Dogmatic About it at all.
• 14:38
  Speaker 0: The one thing I am married to is the idea that you should hire people from over the world and go international as quick as possible, but i don't have a particular belief in another way of working.
• 14:52
  Speaker 0: it's better right?
• 14:53
  Speaker 0: If had then evidence was massively stacked against the idea for example remote work would be better or worse.
• 15:01
  Speaker 0: I don't think it's good, you make a quantifiable case against Eater.
• 15:07
  Speaker 0: And so as i said the vast majority of our customers work in offices and some have worked with everybody even on remote locations where they have presence in multiple countries And that works.
• 15:20
  Speaker 0: Some of them have a main, like a hub and spoke kind of thing where they had one big one in their satellite offices.
• 15:27
  Speaker 0: as some companies day They have an main office or everybody is the name several remote workers at work remotely and literally any other configuration we see come by.
• 15:36
  Speaker 0: I think The one overarching ideas is that effective companies?
• 15:41
  Speaker 0: Think deeply about how do you work How to communicate what kind of culture it creates.
• 15:47
  Speaker 0: I'm pretty strong in the belief that it's mostly unique per company, but what is this and how its functions?
• 15:56
  Speaker 0: It's a great predictor of how successful their companies are.
• 15:58
  Speaker 0: The more intentional you're about them, the better they will be.
• 16:02
  Speaker 0: So if i talk to new startups starting right here ask me these questions like should i work remotely or should i working at an office...I always tell them and they were surprised by us saying whatever works.
• 16:11
  Speaker 0: for Probably when you're very young and your all close together, it's much easier to work together from an office because you don't have the communication overhead.
• 16:20
  Speaker 0: You don't think about like how do you organize?
• 16:22
  Speaker 0: As you scale up eventually become a company that is sort of remote by default Because if you have multiple offices in multiple countries... ...you are a remote company.
• 16:31
  Speaker 0: It just that sub-segment of people come together some way.
• 16:35
  Speaker 0: And so successful companies.
• 16:36
  Speaker 0: what they did was thinking about How we structure How do we structure people, how to structure information and collaborate?
• 16:43
  Speaker 0: And that really drives whether they are successful or not.
• 16:46
  Speaker 0: Not a dogmatic take on like oh you should work remotely but in our case... We have an extremely distributed team with all over of course the big name which implies remote.
• 16:59
  Speaker 0: But it took a lot of intentional effort.
• 17:02
  Speaker 0: Similarly I think if your going set up office at one particular place You have to be very intentional about how are you going to attract people, they actually come and work for that.
• 17:11
  Speaker 0: Because a lot of people self-select into wanting not wanting net or wanting net.
• 17:16
  Speaker 0: If your intention is these things Your company will succeed no matter what.
• 17:21
  Speaker 0: I think it's the challenges when we're not intentional When you decide to hire People remotely but you haven't thought About How To Make Them Feel Included in The Team like That's Not Gonna Work.
• 17:32
  Speaker 0: Similarly, if you're gonna ask everybody to come through the office but your office in the middle of nowhere It's going to be really difficult.
• 17:39
  Speaker 0: Hmm
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: I have to imagine there is a. There's a geographical question.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: all this too because it must change depending on where The worker is based.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: not obviously regulation.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Obviously they talk about Europe.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: There's fragmented regulation and the US has more open.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: But then culturally there has to be a change?
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I mean its kind of an open secret the way some say the Europeans approach work life versus how the Americans approach work life.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: And that must be something, a conversation that enters when you're talking maybe to an American company who wants is looking at higher Europeans or vice versa?
• 18:14
  Speaker 0: Yeah I mean there's some truth through it but also part in here which i reject...I think its mostly driven by the culture within a company defines How It Functions Not The Individuals and depending on where they are from.
• 18:31
  Speaker 0: So to give a really specific example, right?
• 18:33
  Speaker 0: Let's say that you are a company.
• 18:35
  Speaker 0: You're your.
• 18:35
  Speaker 0: US-based companies start hiring people in Europe inevitably because of the company.
• 18:39
  Speaker 0: culture did... ...you've built standards for process where you communicate with yourself and just how you work.
• 18:45
  Speaker 0: those people who gonna hire one during an interview going make sure they align which culture into set standard.
• 18:52
  Speaker 0: so there is people line them as well.
• 18:53
  Speaker 0: it not that this cultural conflict comes from the fact.. ..those people are Europeans or wherever else Right.
• 18:59
  Speaker 0: And usually when people ask me about You know, our cultural differences within companies or within teams.
• 19:04
  Speaker 0: I have never experienced that in a severe manner In the sense it was something that stopped us from collaborating Or slowed us down.
• 19:12
  Speaker 0: for whatever reason.
• 19:14
  Speaker 0: It's up to company To sort of guide.
• 19:17
  Speaker 0: how do we want to work?
• 19:18
  Speaker 0: How do you communicate and collaborate?
• 19:21
  Speaker 0: What are their standards?
• 19:23
  Speaker 0: And then they're irrelevant.
• 19:24
  Speaker 0: Now there are extreme examples in different parts of the world, how local companies work and they might have certain cultural standards.
• 19:35
  Speaker 0: Well I have a funny example but it is good one.
• 19:38
  Speaker 0: so... In the Netherlands i worked for awhile at company as software engineer right before joined GitLab And then every day we had catered lunch to the office But in the Netherlands catered like two slices of bread with slice cheese.
• 19:51
  Speaker 0: It was not very exciting!
• 19:53
  Speaker 0: And Portugal.. We had something similar three-course meals.
• 19:58
  Speaker 0: It was really, really nice and like.
• 20:00
  Speaker 0: food is really important but it's in the Netherlands lunches not a very important meal.
• 20:05
  Speaker 0: Obviously these things are different and its kind of easy to argue that yes this better have proper bill at office than bad culture around them.
• 20:15
  Speaker 0: But as company you can decide change those things.
• 20:17
  Speaker 0: You could say well we have standard and our standards deserve hot meals right?
• 20:20
  Speaker 0: And goes for Hot Meals also goes working hours availability outside work our intensity around how we do work.
• 20:28
  Speaker 0: And so again, it all comes with like How Do You Run Your Company?
• 20:33
  Speaker 0: What is that you want?
• 20:34
  Speaker 0: what does your expect?
• 20:35
  Speaker 0: and setting those expectations really clearly to all?
• 20:38
  Speaker 0: Yeah there will always be people who are not aligned but they'll select themselves out.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: But there has to be.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I mean especially when talking about time zones.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: That has to be a big problem, right?
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Because it's one thing to say here is the company in Portugal.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: It's looking higher than Netherlands or you know there are maybe couple hours difference even if.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: but then what if its an Norwegian Company and they're looking at hiring Latin America.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Right that kind of organization feels like must-be a headache And very big challenge for a company To say while we all asleep your awake working and vice versa.
• 21:20
  Speaker 0: Yeah I think it's the largest challenge that you have, right?
• 21:23
  Speaker 0: If your having very distributed organizations like how do you organize runtime zones.
• 21:28
  Speaker 0: So in my experience its very doable.
• 21:30
  Speaker 0: if we had four hours of overlap basically gives everybody four-hours interruption free and for hours of sync time then is not a problem.
• 21:40
  Speaker 0: The problem really comes when you have four hour overlaps with one time zone four hours overlap with another one, which in turn has four hours on the other side of world.
• 21:53
  Speaker 0: So you have basically a triangle across the world.
• 21:57
  Speaker 0: that's very hard to do and eventually every company is going get there at scale.
• 22:01
  Speaker 0: so earlier figure out like how we make this work?
• 22:04
  Speaker 0: The more effective it will be.
• 22:06
  Speaker 0: There are few really simple strategies.
• 22:07
  Speaker 0: One time zone clusters, right?
• 22:12
  Speaker 0: Or rather the ideal way is to have like a smooth gradient.
• 22:16
  Speaker 0: Let's say you start your company in
• 22:17
  Speaker 0: U.S.,
• 22:18
  Speaker 0: on the east coast... East Coast is easiest for that's our central time.
• 22:23
  Speaker 0: so you ever said east-coast US.
• 22:25
  Speaker 0: then hiring people and west coasts fine because there are three hours of difference.
• 22:29
  Speaker 0: Hiring people from Western Europe it also find because she has maximum six hours or different which enough to have four hours overlap at least especially if all the sites collaborate.
• 22:43
  Speaker 0: If you have that team, right?
• 22:44
  Speaker 0: You're going to hire somebody in Japan or in Australia it's gonna be real difficult because they are feeling really isolated and so... The best way is by expanding your teams slightly over time zones as it grows without suddenly hiring someone who is very disconnected from the rest.
• 23:00
  Speaker 0: If we do this then there isn't much of a problem because people can create teams around time zones.
• 23:05
  Speaker 0: So make sure everybody on their team is sharing at least those four hours of overlap, I think expectation up front also helps a lot.
• 23:14
  Speaker 0: If you say we're US-based company going to hire in Western Europe well but our expectations is that you are able to do meetings for people in western Europe.
• 23:22
  Speaker 0: For many people like myself That's okay.
• 23:24
  Speaker 0: Like then i work more at night and take more free time In the morning right?
• 23:28
  Speaker 0: So it will work out and such And maybe i'll work more At night.
• 23:31
  Speaker 0: um for other People not so much You know.
• 23:34
  Speaker 0: if your upfront about these expectations thats fine is creating a great culture of working asynchronously.
• 23:42
  Speaker 0: This can help companies anyway, which means that you just take notes and make them available to your colleagues.
• 23:47
  Speaker 0: And with AI it's endlessly more easy because you can transcribe every single meeting.
• 23:52
  Speaker 0: You have documentation or company brain.
• 23:57
  Speaker 0: That has only become easier in our time at GitLab maniacally take notes of everything, and then maniacally make sure it's stored somewhere.
• 24:06
  Speaker 0: Nowadays you can just throw all in one big place.
• 24:08
  Speaker 0: an AI will run through.
• 24:10
  Speaker 0: with which way?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Right another challenge than I mean following on this time zones.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And uh...and This is more i guess a question for you than generally as the company.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: but You know As your profile you're European From the Netherlands as you said and from my understand remote space in San Francisco In the US.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: right and we mentioned this a bit before.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: but this topic of kind of how regulated Europe versus The us is when it comes to hiring.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I mean recently here, We had the big Trans salary transparency A law where now you have to show.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: so How do you feel about these things?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Do you feel that It makes Things more difficult too for companies trying To expand or its better in the long run For your company engaging in Europe?
• 24:57
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I mean first you should toot my own horn right?
• 25:01
  Speaker 0: Which is the say remote is built solve this complexity.
• 25:05
  Speaker 0: So we make it very easy to hire people across having from a high level and what?
• 25:11
  Speaker 0: one thing i will say Is that The laws labor loss And regulation is designed Generally To do something good.
• 25:21
  Speaker 0: Right there's good intentions behind the design of those laws, and that those intentions can be all sorts of things.
• 25:27
  Speaker 0: They tend to be hyper-local things right?
• 25:29
  Speaker 0: There had been to be local things too protect the personal population against particular changes or give them some form of security which is in a long term potentially better for people.
• 25:39
  Speaker 0: now In practice course it adds massive overheads companies And they tends to slow down things like innovation and slowdown growth of companies.
• 25:48
  Speaker 0: um...and so You know What do I think about its?
• 25:52
  Speaker 0: you know i think It's It's very difficult to answer.
• 25:57
  Speaker 0: For us, again if you are a company anywhere we make it pretty easy to hire through us.
• 26:03
  Speaker 0: I think for us the burden that we find is not so much in dealing with because we've gotten really good at it but its about setting expectations.
• 26:11
  Speaker 0: what do you expect from one country does not apply when it comes to hiring paying and firing people?
• 26:18
  Speaker 0: Its just different country by country And that also has like a secondary impact because people locally, they value different things.
• 26:28
  Speaker 0: So for example stock options get great treatment.
• 26:31
  Speaker 0: in the United States and certain European countries there's actually great stock option treatments but in many European countries People have never gotten stock options, right?
• 26:40
  Speaker 0: So especially if you hire somebody who's only been locally employed they do not know about this.
• 26:44
  Speaker 0: They don't know the upsides so it is harder to hire them because we want to convince with something that doesn't value.
• 26:49
  Speaker 0: and secondarily even though there are big windfall like when a company gets sold or something then they need to deal with the tax implications which also has an effect on companies as well.
• 27:02
  Speaker 0: It's complex, it's complex.
• 27:03
  Speaker 0: I think the world would be better off if we were to simplify but i also don't really see a clear path because again these laws are designed from the perspective of local government that is protecting its own interests right and they don't have much incentive to streamline this across countries.
• 27:20
  Speaker 0: .I think the EU could do a lot well in this regard.
• 27:23
  Speaker 0: on paper ,they haven't done anything.
• 27:25
  Speaker 0: so
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to put you on the spot there but i think it's an important question You know?
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: To ask somebody who is there?
• 27:35
  Speaker 0: Yeah!
• 27:36
  Speaker 0: I love to talk about it because yeah... It's super interesting right and then we are not going to change things if were just gonna complain About this.
• 27:44
  Speaker 0: And so for people from my position For example If im going to say well all these rules and laws Are stupid Really what Im saying is like These generally democratically electric elected officials have made decisions that do not make sense, which sort of spits in the face of people who voted for those.
• 28:06
  Speaker 0: It's needless ignorance of local politics that has driven particular decisions and laws.
• 28:11
  Speaker 0: so we need to be somewhat empathic towards it.
• 28:13
  Speaker 0: but I think in a very globalized world where we're highly interconnected with other countries companies are hiring all over the world many of these laws don't make any sense.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, well on that note I think uh...I think that's a good place to wrap it up.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Uh..I want thank you Yob very much for joining me here.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: It has been very interesting and we're definitely going keep seeing more of remote so i'm looking forward too!
• 28:41
  Speaker 0: Thanks David thanks for having me
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Alright.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Thank You Very Much Bye.