Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Stop the Sneaky Lies Without Crushing Trust

Transcript

Stop the Sneaky Lies Without Crushing Trust · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:06
Speaker 1: Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies. Yes, I'm
0:09
Speaker 1: being cheesy, I'm quoting a song. I couldn't help it
0:11
Speaker 1: because today it's a tricky question about kids and their
0:14
Speaker 1: lies and oh boy, do they tell some porky pies today.
0:19
Speaker 1: A tricky question from a mum who wants to know
0:21
Speaker 1: why her eight year old cannot tell the truth about
0:24
Speaker 1: simple stuff, even when the truth is staring them right
0:27
Speaker 1: in the face. The Happy Family's Podcast we'll answer that
0:30
Speaker 1: question for you next stay with us. Hello and welcome
0:35
Speaker 1: to The Happy Family's podcast, where you get real parenting
0:37
Speaker 1: solutions every single day. The Happy Family's Podcast is Australia's
0:41
Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast. Thank you so much for listening
0:44
Speaker 1: and downloading and supporting your family as best you can.
0:47
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday on The Happy Family's Pod, we answer your
0:50
Speaker 1: tricky questions. They can be about family stuff, relationships, well being.
0:54
Speaker 1: It can be about screens or discipline. It doesn't really
0:56
Speaker 1: matter what it is. Just send us a voice note
0:59
Speaker 1: and will answer the question. Send your voice notes via
1:02
Speaker 1: email to podcasts at Happy families dot com. Do you
1:05
Speaker 1: or use the super simple system at Happy families dot com.
1:08
Speaker 1: Do you to send us your message? Just like Katie
1:11
Speaker 1: from Brisbane.
1:12
Speaker 2: Hi, Justin and Kylie. We have a situation where our
1:15
Speaker 2: eight year old boy is being a bit sneaky and
1:18
Speaker 2: lying to us, and he's never done it before. It's
1:21
Speaker 2: just little things at the moment, like watching television when
1:23
Speaker 2: we've told him no, or sneaking lollies and treats when
1:26
Speaker 2: he's not allowed, and then flat out lying to our
1:28
Speaker 2: faces when we question him about it. And We've had
1:30
Speaker 2: a few chats to him, but I was just wondering
1:32
Speaker 2: if you could offer a little bit of advice about
1:34
Speaker 2: what to say to him. I kind of want to
1:36
Speaker 2: get through to him now before that tiny stuff becomes
1:39
Speaker 2: big stuff as he gets older. Thanks so much, Katie.
1:43
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the first time we ever went through this.
1:46
Speaker 2: Our oldest daughter was probably four or five, and she
1:51
Speaker 2: came home from the Nape House you've been playing there
1:53
Speaker 2: in that afternoon and I could hear some jingling in
1:56
Speaker 2: her pocket and I asked her what was in it,
1:58
Speaker 2: and she said, oh, nothing, And I said.
2:00
Speaker 3: To Li, I said, let me have a look at
2:04
Speaker 3: that nuffy and I pulled out a handful of fives
2:08
Speaker 3: and tens and twenty cent pieces and I was like
2:10
Speaker 3: where did you get that from? She said, Oh, my
2:12
Speaker 3: friend gave it to me. And I thought, hmm, maybe
2:15
Speaker 3: we should go talk to your friend's mom, And so
2:19
Speaker 3: we went back over and she was very sheepist, and
2:21
Speaker 3: she handed the money back over. And in that moment,
2:25
Speaker 3: all I could think about was I had this daughter
2:28
Speaker 3: who had clearly been dishonest. She'd lied to me, and
2:33
Speaker 3: she'd obviously.
2:33
Speaker 1: Like to her friends and stolen, and.
2:35
Speaker 3: She had stolen. And the catastrophizing that took place in
2:39
Speaker 3: that moment, I was the worst parent in the world.
2:42
Speaker 3: My neighbor wasn't going to let her play with her
2:44
Speaker 3: daughter ever again. She was going to think I was
2:47
Speaker 3: the worst person in the world. And then I'd fast
2:49
Speaker 3: forwarded and I was going to be at the police
2:51
Speaker 3: station with her. And it was just this really big
2:55
Speaker 3: moment in time, and I felt so heavy with it all.
3:00
Speaker 3: And yet now sitting in the chair, having gone through
3:03
Speaker 3: six children of lies and all the things that come
3:08
Speaker 3: with dishonesty, and I realize now just how seemingly I
3:16
Speaker 3: don't want to say insignificant, it's not insignificant, but it's
3:20
Speaker 3: not the big deal that I thought it was in
3:21
Speaker 3: the moment.
3:22
Speaker 1: Let's have a look at some stats. There is data
3:24
Speaker 1: on this. Researchers have calculated and analyzed and research because
3:28
Speaker 1: that's what they do. The average two year old, or
3:30
Speaker 1: about about twenty five percent of them lie, About fifty
3:34
Speaker 1: percent of three year olds lie. So lying is actually
3:37
Speaker 1: a cognitive development, like it shows cognitive sophistication. I know that, and.
3:44
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to come up with some good lies.
3:46
Speaker 1: I know that.
3:47
Speaker 3: Clearly I'm not thinking sophisticatedly enough.
3:50
Speaker 1: Well, you think about it. If you can tell a lie,
3:52
Speaker 1: that means that you've got the ability to identify what's
3:54
Speaker 1: going on in your mind and also the ability to
3:56
Speaker 1: identify what's happening in another person's mind, and then you're
3:59
Speaker 1: able to plan, You're able to inhibit, you're able to regulate.
4:04
Speaker 3: And hopefully keep track of the lines.
4:06
Speaker 1: Well, that's right. There are different levels of lye and typically,
4:09
Speaker 1: like if you ask a two or three year old
4:11
Speaker 1: to tell you the truth about something, Let's say they've
4:13
Speaker 1: got chocolate cake all over their face and in their
4:14
Speaker 1: hands because they're still in the middle of eating it,
4:16
Speaker 1: and you say, did you eat the chocolate cake? They
4:18
Speaker 1: will look at you and because they have limited cognitive
4:20
Speaker 1: sophistication because they do not inhibit well and they don't
4:23
Speaker 1: understand other people's mental states. They all hide the chocolate
4:26
Speaker 1: behind their back and mull say no. And it's quite
4:28
Speaker 1: obvious that, which actually reminds me. When you catch your
4:32
Speaker 1: children doing the wrong thing, do not ask them what
4:34
Speaker 1: they're doing or if they've done it. Just tell them
4:36
Speaker 1: what you can see. Otherwise you end up getting in
4:37
Speaker 1: trouble for lying as well. Anyway, I digress. So by
4:41
Speaker 1: four around about ninet percent of kids are lying, and
4:43
Speaker 1: that's because they're starting to develop bit by bit that
4:46
Speaker 1: thing called theory of mind, which is understanding perspective other
4:50
Speaker 1: people's perspective that something's going on inside your brain that's
4:54
Speaker 1: different to what's happening in my brain. By the age
4:56
Speaker 1: of seven or eight, the data shows that approximately one
4:58
Speaker 1: hundred percent of kids are telling lies. And now that
5:01
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they're all coc.
5:02
Speaker 3: What you're saying is there is no hope that your
5:05
Speaker 3: child is going to lie.
5:07
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean to quote house. Everybody liespially, and
5:12
Speaker 1: mostly they lie because they don't want to get in trouble,
5:15
Speaker 1: because they want stuff, and the big people in their
5:17
Speaker 1: lives telling them that they can't have it like TV
5:19
Speaker 1: or snacks, just like Katie said.
5:21
Speaker 3: So it's a comfort zone though, right. They like their
5:24
Speaker 3: life the way it is, and if they tell the truth,
5:27
Speaker 3: then that comfort gets taken away because they don't get
5:29
Speaker 3: to do the thing they want to do. But there's
5:31
Speaker 3: always there's also friction in the relationship.
5:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So there are two things that I
5:37
Speaker 1: need to really emphasize here. I think that the most
5:39
Speaker 1: important things you can know when it comes to your
5:41
Speaker 1: child lying, particularly when they're under those adolescent years. Okay,
5:44
Speaker 1: so we're talking about somewhere between five and ten, maybe
5:47
Speaker 1: five and twelve. First off, I mean this applies for
5:50
Speaker 1: older kids and even adults as well, but this is
5:53
Speaker 1: especially important in these early years. First Off, the more
5:56
Speaker 1: harsh you are in the way that you respond to lying,
5:59
Speaker 1: so the more the more punitive you are, the more
6:00
Speaker 1: punishment there is, the more you're likely to get more
6:05
Speaker 1: lies from your child. Your child is more likely, not
6:08
Speaker 1: less likely to lie, and that's basically because they don't
6:10
Speaker 1: want to get in trouble and so they lie more
6:12
Speaker 1: to conceal more. It's not that they become better kids
6:14
Speaker 1: so they don't get in trouble. They still want the treat,
6:16
Speaker 1: they still want the TV, they still want YouTube, they
6:18
Speaker 1: still want roadblocks, they still want the stuff you're saying
6:20
Speaker 1: no to. They just get sneakier and sneakier and more
6:23
Speaker 1: skilled at either getting it or deceiving you once they've
6:26
Speaker 1: had it. Data shows that the more you endorse harsh
6:31
Speaker 1: punitive measures, the more likely it is that your kids
6:34
Speaker 1: will lie because they know they're going to get in trouble,
6:37
Speaker 1: and lying is literally I don't want to get in trouble.
6:40
Speaker 1: That's why this is my opportunity to signal how awesome
6:43
Speaker 1: a parent I've tried to be, and I've gotten it
6:45
Speaker 1: wrong more than I want to acknowledge. But that's why
6:47
Speaker 1: I try really hard not to get our kids in trouble.
6:50
Speaker 1: I don't want our kids to see us as people
6:53
Speaker 1: who are going to get mad at them every time
6:54
Speaker 1: they do the wrong thing or choose, like you said,
6:57
Speaker 1: comfort over our austere measure like no, you can't have
7:01
Speaker 1: that treat and that ice cream that's in the fridge.
7:02
Speaker 1: That's my expensive comments ice cream. It's more that I
7:07
Speaker 1: want a problem solved with them. I want to say, okay,
7:09
Speaker 1: so we've got a bit of an issue around honesty.
7:11
Speaker 1: Let's understand why, Okay, ice cream is really tasty to you.
7:14
Speaker 1: Let's figure this out. The second thing that's really important
7:17
Speaker 1: to emphasize is that when you've got a child, especially
7:20
Speaker 1: at this age but even older, lying this is not
7:24
Speaker 1: a moral crisis. It's a teachable moment, which goes back
7:27
Speaker 1: again to what I was saying. Basically, lying is an
7:29
Speaker 1: opportunity for us to solve problems. It's an opportunity for
7:33
Speaker 1: us to recognize that we and our children are not
7:35
Speaker 1: on the same page and therefore to understand them better
7:38
Speaker 1: and then work out a way through whatever the issue is. So, Kylie,
7:42
Speaker 1: after the break, let's talk about the dos and do
7:44
Speaker 1: nots for Katie and anyone else who's got kids who
7:46
Speaker 1: are lying, which is pretty much everybody. And contrast what
7:51
Speaker 1: I think is going to what the standard response is
7:53
Speaker 1: to what I think he's going to be the absolute
7:55
Speaker 1: most helpful. Stay with us. That's next. We're back. This
8:06
Speaker 1: is the Happy Family's Podcast. Kylie. I've got some quick
8:08
Speaker 1: doos and don'ts for when the kids tell those porky pies.
8:12
Speaker 3: I was singing about what you said before the break,
8:15
Speaker 3: and I'm curious to hear your response, because I've had
8:19
Speaker 3: this conversation with parents before, where the idea of working
8:23
Speaker 3: with their children when let's just use ice cream, for instance,
8:27
Speaker 3: they've stolen an ice cream out of the freezer and
8:31
Speaker 3: we know that they've done it, and we go and
8:33
Speaker 3: talk to them about it, and then we work with
8:35
Speaker 3: them to come up with the way that they can
8:37
Speaker 3: have the ice cream, but in an honest way or in.
8:40
Speaker 1: A way that we can feel good about. Right or
8:42
Speaker 1: at a time that we feel good about.
8:43
Speaker 3: It feels like they're being rewarded for something that they've
8:46
Speaker 3: actually done wrong.
8:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's not how I see it at all.
8:50
Speaker 1: I can understand that perspective, but I would disagree with it,
8:52
Speaker 1: and I'll talk about why as we go through the
8:54
Speaker 1: different ways to do it. Let's just really hit these
8:56
Speaker 1: don'ts because they're very, very simple and every parent can
8:59
Speaker 1: get their head around those. First of all, Number one,
9:01
Speaker 1: don't come in with harsh consequences. Research shows it backfires.
9:04
Speaker 1: That's the first thing. I'd say. It's okay to express
9:06
Speaker 1: your disappointment you disproveal, it's okay to say Lyne's not
9:09
Speaker 1: a right. But the more you come down hard on
9:11
Speaker 1: your kids. The more they're just going to feel shame,
9:14
Speaker 1: the more they're going to feel anxiety, the more they're
9:16
Speaker 1: going to be like, I can't trust my parents with anything.
9:18
Speaker 1: I've got to hide everything from them. It will backfire.
9:22
Speaker 1: The second thing, don't set traps for the kids. That's
9:26
Speaker 1: a sure fire way to undermine the relationship. It doesn't
9:29
Speaker 1: work very well. Doesn't work.
9:30
Speaker 3: What do you mean by a trap? Oh, well, you
9:32
Speaker 3: leave the ice cream out.
9:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, leave some money somewhere, set up some surveillance
9:37
Speaker 1: where you can ask them to tell you something. And
9:39
Speaker 1: then you're like, well, actually, i've been tracking what's going on,
9:41
Speaker 1: and I know that you turn on the TV, or
9:43
Speaker 1: I know that you've been on the internet because I've
9:44
Speaker 1: got this new software. When you do that, what you've
9:47
Speaker 1: just done is you've told the kids, oh my goodness,
9:49
Speaker 1: I've got to be really sneaky. Now. You might stop
9:51
Speaker 1: them doing the wrong thing when they are their surveillance,
9:53
Speaker 1: but there's no internalization going on. As soon as they're
9:56
Speaker 1: out of earshot eyeshot, as soon as they know that
9:59
Speaker 1: you can't surveil them, as soon as they're at somebody
10:00
Speaker 1: else's house, they're just going to go nuts. They're going
10:02
Speaker 1: to do all the stuff that they can't do at home,
10:04
Speaker 1: and they're going to think you're the worst parent in
10:05
Speaker 1: the world. Whereas when you resolve these problems together and
10:09
Speaker 1: find solutions that everyone can feel good about where possible,
10:12
Speaker 1: you're just going to get better outcomes and they're going
10:14
Speaker 1: to internalize so much more. Third, don't shame your kids.
10:18
Speaker 1: I can't believe you'd lie to my face. Why would
10:21
Speaker 1: you do that? Because shame is one of the best
10:24
Speaker 1: ways to destroy relationships and under my trust. And don't
10:28
Speaker 1: make it about you, which is when parents say, how
10:31
Speaker 1: can you do this to me? Why would you say this?
10:33
Speaker 1: I do everything for you and now you're lying to me.
10:35
Speaker 1: It's just it's ugly. Here's what to do instead. My
10:40
Speaker 1: top tips. Number one, I question the framing. I'm wondering
10:43
Speaker 1: why your child feels like they need to lie in
10:45
Speaker 1: the first place.
10:46
Speaker 3: It's just like ice cream.
10:47
Speaker 1: Well then we don't need to lie about it. We
10:49
Speaker 1: need to work out a way that you can have
10:50
Speaker 1: ice cream at times and places that are appropriate for everybody.
10:54
Speaker 1: So I used to I was just thinking when I
10:56
Speaker 1: was listening to KD. I know you talked about our
10:58
Speaker 1: daughter stealing the seventy cents or the dollar twenty or
11:00
Speaker 1: whatever it was from the neighbors. When I was a kid,
11:03
Speaker 1: my dad had a milk run and he used to
11:05
Speaker 1: deliver milk, and there were all these coins and an
11:07
Speaker 1: ice cream container in our rumpus room from his coin
11:11
Speaker 1: pouch when he was giving change to people on their doorsteps.
11:14
Speaker 1: And I used to just take so much of that
11:15
Speaker 1: money and go down to the local shops and put
11:17
Speaker 1: it into it. Do you remember that game, that aircraft
11:19
Speaker 1: carrier game nineteen forty eight, I think it was called.
11:22
Speaker 1: I used to play arcade games for hours and just
11:24
Speaker 1: put so many coins in there. One time, Mum found
11:27
Speaker 1: me at the shops with all these coins, and she said,
11:29
Speaker 1: where'd you get the coins? And I told a great
11:30
Speaker 1: big lie, and I could see it in her face.
11:32
Speaker 1: She knew, she absolutely knew. I used to steal all
11:35
Speaker 1: of the cheesecakes. We lived down the road from Sarah
11:38
Speaker 1: Lee at Niagara Park, and she'd gone by all the seconds,
11:41
Speaker 1: so she'd buy the cheesecakes and the chocolate cakes and
11:44
Speaker 1: the banana cakes, and I would just go into the freezer.
11:46
Speaker 1: I would eat them all and then I would put
11:47
Speaker 1: the empty cardboard boxes back into the freezer, and we
11:50
Speaker 1: had guess. So for dinner, Mom would go to the
11:51
Speaker 1: freezer thinking she had eight cakes in there, and they
11:54
Speaker 1: were all empty, so there was no deserve because I
11:55
Speaker 1: didn't have the cheesecake. Or there'd be a half eaten
11:57
Speaker 1: cheesecake with my teeth marks in there and she'd say
11:59
Speaker 1: who ate and I would say I don't know, and
12:02
Speaker 1: she knew it was me. The thing is, if we'd
12:04
Speaker 1: sat down and had conversations about when it's okay to
12:07
Speaker 1: eat this stuff and when it's not, if there were
12:09
Speaker 1: appropriate times for treats, if there was a better setup,
12:12
Speaker 1: I think it would have happened a lot less. I
12:13
Speaker 1: would have been less sneaky. I would have gotten in
12:15
Speaker 1: trouble for lying a lot less. What are we doing
12:18
Speaker 1: that makes kids feel unsafe telling the truth to me?
12:21
Speaker 1: The inherent power and balance is the problem here, because
12:24
Speaker 1: we're controlling the resources, where imposing the arbitrary rules, and
12:28
Speaker 1: the kids have got no legitimate power to negotiate and
12:31
Speaker 1: figure out a way forward. So explore explaining power. Seems
12:34
Speaker 1: like you really want to watch TV, seems like you
12:35
Speaker 1: really like these treats. We totally get it. How can
12:37
Speaker 1: we do this in a way that we can all
12:38
Speaker 1: feel good about it? Because these are our problems with it.
12:41
Speaker 1: Too much sugar, too much square eyes, that kind of thing.
12:44
Speaker 1: And if you can problem solve effectively, you're just gonna
12:48
Speaker 1: have a better outcome.
12:49
Speaker 3: So my take home from all of this is, don't stress.
12:53
Speaker 3: Everyone's kids are lying sometimes everyone's even yours if you
12:59
Speaker 3: don't think they are. And number two, don't sweat.
13:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, but have the conversations like, lying is not okay.
13:08
Speaker 1: It's the way that you respond to the lying that matters, though,
13:10
Speaker 1: because responding the wrong way is also not okay.
13:13
Speaker 3: And here's the challenging thing. You're probably going to have
13:15
Speaker 3: that conversation a bajillion times.
13:18
Speaker 1: No discipline conversations are one and done. Yeah, Whether it's
13:21
Speaker 1: cleaning up your room, making a contribution to the home,
13:23
Speaker 1: being nice to your brother or sister, or telling lies,
13:25
Speaker 1: you're going to have these conversations over a lot over again. Yeah.
13:30
Speaker 3: And that doesn't mean that you're not doing the right thing,
13:33
Speaker 3: and it doesn't mean that they're not getting the message either.
13:35
Speaker 2: Yep.
13:36
Speaker 1: It's just life life parenting. It's hard. Hey, Katie, thanks
13:41
Speaker 1: so much for the question. We really hope it's been
13:43
Speaker 1: helpful and that your family is happier as a result
13:46
Speaker 1: of this. Good luck with the conversations. If you've got
13:48
Speaker 1: a tricky question for us, let us know. Podcasts at
13:51
Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot I you as where you
13:53
Speaker 1: can send your voice notes or go use the super
13:55
Speaker 1: simple system at happy families dot com dot A you.
13:59
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you and answer your tricky
14:02
Speaker 1: questions on pretty much anything at all. We're back tomorrow
14:05
Speaker 1: with more on the Happy Families podcast, which is produced
14:07
Speaker 1: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides research and
14:11
Speaker 1: admin support, and for more info to make your family happier,
14:14
Speaker 1: visit us at happy families dot com. Do you