Latest / The Daily Writer / Thinking Like an Artist Entrepreneur (with Catherine Orer)

Transcript

Thinking Like an Artist Entrepreneur (with Catherine Orer) · The Daily Writer

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome to episode 108 of the Born to Create Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ken Sanders, and this is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and skills to help you make a bigger impact in your life and creative work.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I talk about this podcast or about the materials I create, the phrase that I use most often to describe my audience is the term creative entrepreneur.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that term refers to somebody who's building a business with their creative skills.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: For most of us, the quote-unquote creative part comes a lot easier than the quote-unquote entrepreneur part.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Creating a viable business is pretty difficult.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: As pretty much any business owner can tell you.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to be putting my business to focus on ghostwriting and some other related things in order to take my business to the next level.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm really grateful for today together.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Her name is Catherine Orr, and she's an award-winning business and PR strategist, and also the founder of the Artist Entrepreneur, where she counsels professional visual artists and creative entrepreneurs who want to build sustainable businesses and careers.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Catherine is all about helping artists to think like entrepreneurs.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to learn why mindset is so important, how to expand your thinking and grow your business and why so many artists struggle with the concept of making money.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, before we get into the interview, I want to offer an apology to Catherine because I know for a fact I'm not pronouncing her name correctly.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: When we were doing this interview after the official interview was over, I asked her to pronounce uh her name for me because I wanted to get it right.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she did that a couple of times.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: But her last name is Arminian, and I just cannot get the accent right.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that I'm mangling her last name.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know that it that when I say aura that that's sort of like a Midwestern mangling of her last name.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Catherine, I'm so sorry.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm giving it my best shot.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh but I I know I'm not quite getting there.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So hey, enough about me.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am really excited to have Catherine on the show.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get right to the conversation.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Catherine, I've been looking forward to chatting with you.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for making the time to be on the show today.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for having me, Kant.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited to talk to you and talk to your audience.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you would share a little bit of your background and how you developed the artist entrepreneur.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, really, the artist entrepreneur, I I tend to say that it came to me rather than I created it, because um I have a background working in communications, marketing, public relations.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And after a few years in the corporate sector, I decided to go study uh the business of art and art history at Christie's in Paris.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when I came back to Canada, I worked in art galleries, so I started selling art, and I really thought that was going to be my path, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: When I stood, so when I studied at Christie's, my goal was to start an art gallery.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I worked in art galleries for a while, and in 2008, when there was the economic downturn and also the rise of social media, a lot of artists started coming to me and asking me questions about how to promote themselves because either the galleries were closing or sales weren't happening the same way as it used to, getting questions like, hmm, I hear there's something called Facebook and I should be on it to sell my art, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So these kinds of conversations um made me realize that I had a skill set and an experience, expertise that I could really help artists empower, be more empowered and start selling their art or just getting better at communicating what they're creating, why they're creating it, to build a collector base or even to get more gallery representation if that's what they want.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I started talking to artists and giving them feedback and saying, well, you know, would you like more of that?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can and they were like, Yes, can you help us, Catherine?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give us more insight on websites and communications and marketing and PR?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really by listening to basically what artists were telling me that their needs were that eventually this led to creating uh the artist entrepreneur.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really intrigued by that because I see a lot of people out there, and and my crowd tends to be uh creative types, artists, musicians, writers, people like that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so many people want to start a business or they want to start a side gig or a side hustle, whatever title you want to put on it.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they're they're kind of in the mindset of, okay, I want to start this and get it going, but you're actually talking about taking the opposite approach, which is instead of having an idea and then sort of forcing it, instead you're listening to what people need around you and responding to that.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really intriguing approach.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, and that's actually what I recommend to my clients when they want to start either even selling their art or starting a second or third stream of income.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's important to understand like what you're good at and what you love doing, and obviously your own skill set.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I even recommend that you speak to people around you because you know, for me, like my skill sets of marketing and under understanding what's a good website or how social media works for me was a given, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like it wasn't that much of a special skill because I've been doing that for 10 years.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but other people or artists were telling me, no, you you don't understand.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: For us, it's like it's it's a biggie, like it's something that's missing.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: We don't learn that in art school, or we don't learn it uh through our regular um training.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to learn it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's interesting also to ask other people around you like how they perceive you or what they think your good qualities are or skill sets are.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: But once you've identified that, um, you can't just build a business in silo, like without testing it to the market and asking the market what they want and seeing what the problem is that you're going to go in and solve, because otherwise there can be a very big gap between what it is that you're putting out there and what other people are interested in paying for.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sometimes the gap isn't really that big, it's just in the way that you package it or that you you your messaging around it.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't go and test, um you'll never know, and then you end up spending a lot of time and energy and sometimes a lot of money building something and you get to market and the market doesn't want it, and it can be very disappointing.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because the the product isn't good or the service isn't good.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that it's not meeting a need.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I talk to a lot of creative types who say, I want to follow my passion, or sometimes they're talking about their kids who are maybe getting out of college or they're in their 20s and they're saying, Hey, my kid cannot find their passion, they're struggling, they're sort of flailing around in life.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say to the person who says, I want to follow my passion, as opposed to thinking of it in terms of what you're talking about, which is looking for a problem to be solved, or something where the market is telling you that there's a need for something.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do you link those two things, your your passion and what's driving you and what you love to do versus what the market is asking for or what is actually sellable or addressing some kind of practical problem?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um the first thing I would say, and it's kind of the same answer I give when people tell me, I can't find my target audience, or I can't find my ideal client, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Kent, I'm sure you've heard that too.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I say, well, your ideal client is not hidden under your bed, or it's not like somewhere that you can't find it, right?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's asking yourself, who do you want to serve?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like who do you want to work with every day?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have artists who tell me, Oh, I want to sell to high-end collectors, but then when I tell them, okay, so how are you gonna reach them?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: They have no idea.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the conversation, they realize that they don't even really like the people that they thought they were going to target.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: You see what I mean?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: That is hilarious.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is very funny because they just think, oh, I'm gonna sell to people who have money, right?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then the way they start describing these people are like, you really want to hang out with these people?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know what?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Your clients, you're gonna hang out with them, you're gonna have to go and meet with them and talk to them.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the same way that you kind of find or identify, I rather to say choose, like choose who you want to work with, and then just go out there and speak to as many people as possible to understand how you can use the gifts that you have to be of service to those people.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the same people that you know, my son is out of college, doesn't know what to do, wants to pursue his passion.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing to ask themselves, who do they want to help?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Who do they want to work with every day?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Kids, uh, seniors, uh, whom, and then just go out there and talk to them.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why people are so afraid to talk to other human beings, but basically, when we're building a business, we're building relationships with other people.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: If we're not in a place where we're willing to go out and talk to them, we're never going to be able to reach that next step and make sure that our offer is a success.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say just go out there.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I decided that I wanted to study art history, and and I was moving to Paris the whole time that I was in Paris, I had a full year of study, but the whole time I was connecting with art galleries, calling in Montreal, you know, talking to people in Montreal, seeing what their needs were in Paris, understanding what they were doing, so that when I finished, I had a really good sense of, okay, these are my skill sets and these are what these people need.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I could package what I have to offer that meets, that there's this meeting point, that sweet spot.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So tell them to go meet people, talk to people.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's why, you know, if you're even if you're gonna study in accounting, like go talk to a few accountants before you sign up for a degree in accounting, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: The same thing I recommend uh to anyone who wants to start a business.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely an element of listening to people's needs, going out and building relationships, networking, you know, in different forms that that can take place, rather than saying, I want to build this thing or I want to create this thing and then figure out how to sell it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, because all the questions that you're asking yourself, the market has the answer for it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: You just need to be willing to listen.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, sometimes you might not like the answer.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, sometimes you might it might send you back to the drawing board and have to kind of fix a few things, but isn't it better to do that before you launch than once you've launched?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing also is you're already buying, you're already uh finding your clientele.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So people will say, you know what, Kent, when you're ready, call me because what you're working on, I'm super interested.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So already when you're launching whatever it is that you're doing, you are already have a few people that you can say, okay, this these could be when you're doing your financial projections or whatever.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can say that I already have a handful of people who said who are interested that I'm gonna call as soon as my product or service is available.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So in your work with artists and creatives, what what are some of the most common issues that artists have when it comes to thinking like a business person or thinking like an entrepreneur?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's that's you know a huge focus of what you do.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the problem spots that we artists have in thinking more like a business person and a marketer?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, what we just talked about is huge.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like just getting out of their comfort zone, stay, because you know, staying in the studio and working on your craft or your art is usually that is a comfort zone, right?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So saying, okay, I'm gonna turn this into a business, and I have to go out there and meet people and prepare proposals or whatever it is that they want to sell is usually a huge block.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um another block that I see is um feeling comfortable with selling, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Selling your art, selling yourself, selling an idea, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um that and and often, uh and I don't want to generalize because I I feel like all the club the artists I work with are so so different.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't like to say artists are like this or they're like that, but um you know it's it's it's like talk talking about selling is usually a challenge, and often it's they look at you know, with Instagram these days, they see what other artists are doing, and it looks so easy on Instagram.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then why isn't it as easy for me?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why aren't the opportunities coming my way, Catherine, instead of me having to hustle to get these opportunities?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is Instagram is not the truth, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just a it's a lens, right?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's just of someone's story through a lens that's hypercurated.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, they won't tell you all the ups and downs that led to having this brand partnership or or this show or this collection being sold or purchased.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so yes, things won't just happen.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you build momentum, eventually you can gain some traction, but until you get to the point where you gain that traction, um, yeah, it's gonna be hard work.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's okay that it's hard work.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's we just need to accept it.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the end of the world.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if it wasn't hard work, it wouldn't be very valuable.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the things that are most valuable we have to work for.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And man, I I think what you said about Instagram, that might be the best quote of any interview that I've done on this show.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is the truth is that Instagram is not the truth.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say Twitter or Facebook as well, or LinkedIn or whatever, because man, I have that experience, and maybe you do as well.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And people listening where you're you're scrolling through some social media feed, and the more that you're doing it, you're you get this pit in your stomach and thinking, wow, my my whole life just sucks in comparison to what I'm seeing.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a loser, you know, I weigh too much, I don't have as much money as they do.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not as cool, I don't have as much hair.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe I'm yeah, this is like a counseling session, apparently.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, or like I'm like, my kids, how come my kids don't like aren't always clean like that?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or my kids just did it, my kids just did a tantrum at the grocery store, and then you just see a bunch of beautiful kids that are all like dressed up perfectly.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and for artists, it's the same thing, right?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see, you know, the hundred failed applications, you just see that one application that led to that perfect show.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you don't see all the reject rejection letters, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So uh a few artists who um are a little more open to sharing that on Instagram, but even when they do share it, it's almost like you don't believe them because they look so successful.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, so you you so even like even the even vulnerability on social media is curated.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to you have to be careful with selective honesty.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh I love that.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, selective honesty.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Selective transparency.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be honest, but not too honest.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Just for this little part, I'm gonna be honest.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: People tell you to be on, I'm being honest, it's like, oh, so what was everything else that you just said before that part?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really true.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now let me take a second.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm curious to get your thoughts on this because you have a perspective on this that probably well that I know that I don't because I'm more of a writer and musician person.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't paint or draw at all.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's really, really bad when I do.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have any talent or training in that area.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious about your thoughts on the Notre Dame fire and the tragedy that that is, because I know Paris is close to your heart.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that as someone who really values art and has a lot of experience in that world?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, first I was very, very sad when I saw the images.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: At first, I I have to be, I have to say I was in denial, and people were telling me, Did you see?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, No, no, I didn't see.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even want to go see because it was just um so sad, and I was hoping that it was just like, yeah, it wasn't true.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um on the one hand, I was I was comforted to see how much the community, like a community came quickly to support uh what was going on and saying we're gonna rebuild it.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I had these like mixed feelings, and I didn't really understand where these mixed feelings were coming from.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yesterday I heard someone on the radio say something and it it was like bang on how I felt.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: She put words on how I was feeling, and she said, you know, uh there's artisans who work their whole life and multiple generations of artisans that worked their whole life to build this cathedral.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they had to invent tools and and like nothing.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't have electricity, they didn't have, you know, any of the tools that we see in construction today.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: They sometimes have to invent it to be able to bring their vision into reality.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it took over, you know, 100 years to build.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now we're hearing like it's gonna be rebuilt in five years, and people are just throwing money at it, right?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they're like, well, can we just take and and that's really what just that really touched me.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: She said, can we just take a minute or so to remember these people who did the all this work in a in a place where um they didn't have what we have today?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of rushing and making it a big PR PR opportunity, which is what's going on right now, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's like, who's gonna put the more money to have the biggest PR uh effect?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, can we just take a time to remember and be have a little bit of gratitude for these people who were there before us?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, just have this time to just decide what we want to do with this next stage of this uh monumental um piece because there's why are we rushing?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no rush.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: This thing is gonna be there forever, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's just gonna be a new iteration of it.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And let's take the time to think about what we want this new iteration of this monument to become.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are this is probably a stupid question.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's no stupid question, just stupid answers.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was actually, so I'm a college professor in my day job, and uh one of the classes I teach is a basic level introduction to the arts course.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the modules deals with architecture.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my students and I were talking just a couple of days ago about you know, how do you go about rebuilding something like one of those cathedrals that is so old?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are there even people today who are trained in how to construct it according to you know the original designs and the way that they would have constructed it back then?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the methods that we use are going to be different today, probably the materials, but if we wanted to build exactly like it was, would we even be able to do that today?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that's an excellent question.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know that uh some um uh curators and um people who do restoration at the Louvre Museum offered their support uh for that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you have a piece of art that's dated from the Renaissance, there are people uh who are on staff at the Louvre who can do restorations on these types of pieces and they're trained for that.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: But again, I think it's a it's we need to take a step back and just think think about what it is that we want to do because is it is it worth trying to rebuild it exactly as it was, but with our modern ways, or should we add another layer that's 2020 to it?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't have the answer.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely not a specialist in restoration, but um let's say when they when they did some uh works on the Louvre and they decided to add other parts to it, they didn't try to do something that looked like the old Louvre, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: They made something that was super modern and it was an addition to it, and it's the new addition, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So how they're gonna do it and why they're gonna do it that way, I have no idea.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but just let's stop rushing and making it a PR thing, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really what's going on.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think it's unfortunate because especially with everything that's going on in France right now, um, maybe it's an opportunity for people to come together uh with a common goal, and that would maybe soothe a lot of tensions that they have.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting as as an American to to think about uh cathedrals, not just cathedrals, but you know, particularly my heart is always very close to Europe and you know, cathedrals and architecture in Europe for for whatever reason I'm just drawn to those things.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's hard for Americans, I think, to appreciate the fact that those are much, much older than our country.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the oldest things that I mean, America is is just a few hundred years old.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and the the cathedral like that goes back way, way, way, way further than that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just kind of interesting.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: We don't Americans don't really have that long of a history in comparison to most of the rest of the world.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely culturally.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when I lived in France, like I'm French Canadian, so I thought, oh, it's gonna be the same, right?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: If we both speak French, like we're called their little cousins, it's gonna be the same.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: But no, the the the way of life there is so different, and it took a while for me to get used to it, and really um it's the history, the collective history that makes it so interesting.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because once you understand where they're coming from and that they have such a long history that explains why they do things the way they do it, it all starts to make sense and you start to appreciate much more and you realize that there's no reason to be in such a rush all the time.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because that cathedral has uh has outlived many, many generations of people, and it will outlive all of us.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: You said something on your website that I was really intrigued by.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um you said it is our social responsibility to support artists as they are an important part of the legacy we will leave to future generations.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love that statement.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I read that and I thought, wow, she gets it, she really gets it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit more about that, about how artists are our legacy that we're leaving to future generations?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that the more we value artists and the more we give them um um the tools and the means uh to create whatever they need to create, um, we will live in a much happier, safer, uh better place.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, because it let's say we take, in terms of why do I mean social responsibility and why do I mean what do I mean by future generations?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, you know, let's say we take out artists from the equation, uh, who is going to shape our world?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Politicians, business owners, uh, so corporate, money driven, obviously, and uh scientists.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's perfect.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like they all need to be there for or where to operate.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um but where is the innovation gonna come from?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Where is the beauty going to come from?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love art history, and what I love about his art history is reading about an artist and how their work influenced the society in which they lived in, and vice versa, how the society in which they lived influenced the work of the artist.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine if tomorrow there's no more artists.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like when we reference, let's say, the 60s, imagine if there's no music.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine if there's no psychedelic art.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine if there's no writers, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, how will we remember the 60s if we don't have the artist who came and gave that color to it?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm always worried that I'm gonna leave um my um I'm gonna leave my children a world in a less better shape than when I got it.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I explained that clearly, but so okay, so my generation, I'm afraid I'm gonna leave it in a worse shape.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if I don't support artists in my generation, then I'm not encouraging the next generation to create a generation of artists and to leave their mark, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So what's gonna be left for the the next generation and the other one, right?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so important that we have artists because they shape the color, they shape uh basically the uh the emotions and the feelings and the culture of a whole generation.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So without them, it's just science and money and politics.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So true, very true.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let me shift into our lightning round.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this is uh I always feel like this is kind of a silly game show.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I grew up watching game shows like The Prices Ride and some of these silly American game shows that are really completely pointless.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, um These are just a series of fast questions I like to shoot at guests, um, just to kind of get a better sense of who you are and just to have some fun, really.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think a podcast should be fun.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Fun to do and fun to listen to.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so these are let me count these one, two, three.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, seven.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't a math major in college, so I have to take this kind of slow.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so these set there's seven of these lightning round questions.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Question number one if you were stuck on a desert island with only one movie to watch, what movie would it be?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't know how that's gonna make me look, but uh it's definitely without a doubt, four weddings and a funeral.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the one with um who is the lead guy?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is it Grant?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Hugh Grant and um the lady is uh McDonnell.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember her first name, but it's just a movie, you know, the type of movie that every time you it's on on TV, you just have to sit and watch it wherever it is.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like even if there's just like half an hour left, or like it's like everybody in the house, I'm like, oh, I don't care what you were planning on watching, I'm finishing that movie.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm watching that movie, I just just uh everything else just goes away.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm on a deserted island and I'm lonely, that movie is just gonna keep me company.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, question number two: if you could meet anyone in history who is dead or alive, who would you meet and why?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I visited uh the show at the Guggenheim, New York in February of Ilma Hafklint, K-L-I-N-T.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I would absolutely love to meet that artist.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she was born in the late 1800s, and uh her work is just now being recognized as a leader of the abstraction movement.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it used to be that um, you know, the uh the abstraction movement was either born through Malevich or Kandinsky, but now we're finding that this lady created abstract work years before they did.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but obviously, because of the, you know, she was a woman and where she was raised, uh, she said in her writing that she um she couldn't show her work yet because the world wasn't ready for it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to have a drink with her and hear about everything she thought the world wasn't ready for at that time.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right, question number three.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: What book helped change the way you think or see the world?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um probably a book from the Dalai Lama.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so a book on Buddhism was probably one of the books that really changed my perception and understanding of the world the world and relationship with other human beings.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I started my business, sorry, Kent, I'm gonna send give you a second one, but it's all good.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: When I started the second one, uh my business, it's clearly The War of Art by Stephen Pressfield around resistance.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great one.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had I had no idea of what resistance was, and I didn't understand why some people could take a strategy and run with it and be super successful, and others couldn't.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought it had to do with willpower, but when I read that book, it made me see it a whole different way.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: What does a perfect day look like for you?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: A day where there's nothing on my calendar, a day where it's sunny outside and I can go play.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh, question number five.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: What is a tool or a creative resource that you cannot live without?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: My brain.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's a pretty important resource, I would say.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very I'm I I gotta say, like, I don't even know why I have a smartphone because I delete all the apps from it.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I only have Instagram for work, and uh I'm not a big apps or tools person.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just yeah, I just show up.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if I don't take care of my body and my mind, uh any no no apps or tools or tricks are gonna do that for me.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Very true.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Number six, if you could thank one person who made a big difference in your life, who would it be?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Probably my art history teacher uh in college who's who told me not to go major in art history.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I listened to him, and I went and and studied marketing and PR instead.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, although at the time it was a very difficult decision.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Today I know that the path that I'm in now, I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't be where I am now if I had followed a conventional path.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so I appreciate him um uh yeah, telling telling me his own truth and sharing his own truth with me and uh and uh opening up uh different paths, which at the time felt like he was closing a door, but really he uh he opened a window.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there may be an important lesson there for all of us.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: A closed door but an open window.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh yeah.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there it happened many other times in my life, but that's really a significant one.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, final lightning round question.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: What are you working on this year that you are really excited about?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um well this year we're really, really focusing on the art uh inside the artist entrepreneur and um growing our lab.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the artist entrepreneur lab, which is a community slash membership slash uh really a program to help artists build their business.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I think that there's an overload of training and content, and really what artists need is support, accountability, and context more than content.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this year we're really talking to artists and and and the group is thriving right now, but we want to get more artists in, and to do that, we're really you know doing research, finding what artists want, what's making them, what's making them move the needle in their business, uh, so that we can be even more impactful and creating a community of artists, entrepreneurs who are um growing together, whatever stage of business they're at.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's great.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think going through a process with a group or with a, you know, whether it's a mastermind or some type of small group or networking group or whatever it is, that is, I think, so vital instead of trying to do things on your own and learning everything on your own.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not possible.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, because there's a lot of things like I I tend to say I don't teach what you can Google.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you can Google it, just go and Google it.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's like if you want to find three ways to grow your Instagram, just Google it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Google's full of that information.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: But once you have that information, like how do you put it in context and how do you apply it to your specific situation and your specific business?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And how can you have accountability and support to make sure that you know you're really following through and not just doing it once and then moving on to something else and always going for that that shiny object and and not really sticking to a strategy until you find you see the results that you want.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So having that support, um, you know, a lot of people come in the lab and say, Oh, because I want your coaching, Catherine, but really when they stay, it's for the community because there's me, but there's everybody else who gets it, who's there who can make things much easier instead of trying to do it all by yourself.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: We were raised to be told, uh, being told, great, you did it all by yourself.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well done, right?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really, I know, I know it was for me the first time I made an investment to hire a coach.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was almost like a failure, like, oh, I can't believe now I have to pay somebody to coach me, right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, but then I realized, no, it's actually very empowering to get that support, and it's choosing yourself and saying, like, I'm putting this project first, and I'm gonna surround myself with everything that I need because I'm putting this as a priority and I want it to work for me.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as we start to wind this down, people who are listening to this interview, they they may be thinking, I'm creative, I do painting, or I do music, or I do writing, or I do something in the creative arts, but I have no idea where to start with marketing myself or with growing my business or entrepreneurship.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: What is what is one simple step that artists could take today to get moving in the right direction?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: They can go on my website at theartistontepreneur.com, and we have uh a resources library.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have free uh resources there, and um we have one resource that's called the five-step blueprint for artists, and it's basically how to it's a bunch of questions and a roadmap, a framework to start thinking about what your business model is going to look like and what are the different steps that you can um you can start working on to build your business.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's free, it's a good way to start figuring out figuring out if this is a the good path for you and identifying where you have gaps right now and where you would need help to fill these gaps to reach your goals.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna encourage everybody to do that because you've got a load of great information on your site.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say thanks for taking the time to chat with me.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you're you're really busy, you have client work, all kinds of things going on, but thanks for taking the time to add some value to the podcast listeners.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, uh thanks for having me, Ken.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure to share my thoughts with you today.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Catherine.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a ton from her wisdom and experience, and I hope this was helpful for you as well.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I really want to encourage you to check out her website at the artistautrepreneur.com.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: That wraps up this episode of the Born to Create podcast.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank Catherine for taking the time out of her very busy schedule to share the time into conversation.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the link to the show notes at 108.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that you were born to create a design to make a difference.