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Is a Dustin May Extension Possible? Addressing The Bullpen, Blaze Jordan is the REAL DEAL · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm Jim Hayes. In this edition, we'll have no professional
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: former athletes. We have a media guy, our friend Jeff
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Jones of the Belville News Democrat, kind enough to join us. Jeff,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: we appreciate you coming on on a Saturday, so I'm
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: going to express my gratitude by saying, I know you
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: got this other platform thing going, so tell us about that,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: but do it in like fifteen twenty seconds, don't take
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: two three minutes like last time.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't refined the good pitch yet, but words
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: about birds dot com that'll get you access to some
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: in between the lions kind of blog type stuff, just
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: extra things that have kind of come across my trans
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and then that have been interesting to me. So check
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: it out. Words about birds dot com. We'd be happy
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: to have you.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Good and it's a good problem, So should check it out,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: all right, Jeff. So the Cardinals have a rare off
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: day on a Saturday because of the World Cup in
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Kansas City. We get that, but they dropped the first
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: two games of the series. And it's not a good
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Kansas City team and it is a little drive spell
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: for the Cardinals right now, and when that happens, social
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: media wants to go after somebody, and the guy is
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Libby because he went what one in two thirds gave
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: up seven or then the truth is Libby was good
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: earlier in the season and not as good late. Bry So,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: where is Libby right now in your view?
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's been a stretch here where it
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: is definitely less than you want. You know, then the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: last hanple will start here where the struggle they get
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: through five, if even to get through five. Some of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: that overlapped in the period where they had Hunter Robbins
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and a ballpen and they were kind of looking for
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: spaces to get him in, which you know, in part
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: was about Dobbinson probably in part two was about Liberatory
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: and Kyleway. He's well kind of reaching this point in
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: the season where it's going to be the first sort
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: of what they want to call it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Fatigue induced speed bump.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: However, you'll want to look at it when the workload
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: starts to add up on these guys.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: I think that we are seeing some of that.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: You know, there's been some talk about the adjustments Libertur
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: has made the chase a little bit more smiing in
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: this Some of that showed up maybe, you know, say
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: three weeks ago. In recent weeks, it hasn't really been there.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: So no question, it has been a rough stretch for him.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: He has not given them what he wants and what
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: they kind of need from him over the last couple
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: of weeks. But you know, part of being started in
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: the big leagues is adjusting to that. And part of
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: what this season is about for the Cardinals, as much
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: as last season was as well, is learning if these
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: guys can do it or not. He's seeing can that
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: the libertur have three four bad starts in a row,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: find him adjustment and get himself back on track and
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: last over the duration of the season. And you know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: if it turns out that the answer is no, okay,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: but that's something that they'll learn and I would expect
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: that they'll have plenty of opportunity to demonstrate one way
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: or the other.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So, look, the starters this season have been fine last
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: homestand I look how long Cardinal starters have lasted this
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: season and it's kind of the middle of the pack.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: But the bullpen right, the bullpen right, man. But that's
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: where every one points. Oh, they're not going deep enough.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: It's not that.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: But last I looked at the Cardinal bullpen like it
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: reminds me of my sp drawer, Like it's a mess. Right,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: So how do you assess where the Cardinal bullpen is?
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, I mean they've obviously made some changes to
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: sort of evaluate, you know, what they can get out
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: there to get a little immediate help. We saw Max
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: radget called up. Pitched Thursday in Kansas City, sort of
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: immediately after being called up as a guy who can
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: provide them a little bit of length there. Chris Roycroft
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: no longer in the mix obviously, it just hasn't gone
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: nearly well enough. Hadn't seen the results he needed at
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: the big league level. You know, we'll see what the
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: parts they can turn over look like. Here, Ryan Fernandez,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I believe pitch last night. He was supposed to pitch
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: last night for Memphis. His first step on a rehab assignment.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Has looked better this season, you know, has look like
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: a guy who you could at least trust to be
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: part of the mix at the major league level. Matt
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Swanson has definitely looked better on his most recent recall.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Looks like a guy who is closer to the.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Reliever they had last year who you know led the
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: team and era out of the bullpen.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Did Matt Spohonson in twenty twenty five.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: So a guy who has some history of success with
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Ragic obviously now on the roster, you know, pitched well
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: enough and his debut on Thursday Night, But that is
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: at least a spot where you can see guys kind
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: of moved up and down and you can use some
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: of some of some of that that that that shuttle
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: back and forth to Memphis. Part of the challenge that
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: the Cardinals are going to have and then have had
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: throughout the season is that they don't have that manievaling
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: parts right like, so George Soriano, for example, is a
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: guy who has pitched super well this season, but doesn't
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: have options and so there's really no way to move
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: that spot around, nor would you want to take Soriano
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: off the roster, but just as an example of a
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: spot where you haven't been able to make any changes,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Gordon Gricefo until recently, has been one of their more
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: reliable options, though he is also pretty significantly out. It's
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: what you would say his expected numbers have been. He's
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: gotten a lot better results than the underlying data would
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: suggest that he should have maybe to this point, and so,
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: you know, not a huge shock that you might see
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: some of that starting to catch up with him. And
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: that is a spot where they could shuffle some guys
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: around if necessary, and there are at least some options
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: down below. You know, Luis Gastelloum is a guy who
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: you should expect to see in the big leagues, probably
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: sooner than later. He's going to be a part of
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: the bullpen conversation in Saint Louis this summer before the
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: end of the year, no question. Scott Blewett a guy
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: who they really liked a lot in spring, whose stuff
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: maybe hasn't sustained totally at that level, but is still
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: in the conversation. Though again, Blewett is another guy who
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: doesn't have options left, so once he's in the big leagues,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: he's staying in the big leagues until they're ready to
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: risk the waiver wire on him. So there are possibilities,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: there are ways to maybe refreshedad group a little bit,
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: but there are you know, there are roadblocks too, and
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the lack of moving parts makes it just a little
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: bit harder to figure out what solutions shouldn't.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Look like you bring up Swanson. He's a guy who
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: was really good last year. I like his outlook like
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: he wants the ball, he doesn't care for his one
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: inning two innings, and he's not some guy who was
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: a starter. I mean, he kind of worked toward where
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: he is now by working on the bullpen and the miners.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: And he said the problems he had early on the
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: season was just lacking execution and then sort of losing
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: his mojo. I think that guy will find it again.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the stuff is good in its outlier and
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: moves in interesting ways. The bottom line is guys who
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: are big league believers are going to have periods where
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: they're not going to be as consistent, because if they
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: were consistent one percent of the time, they would the
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: big league starters.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Like, the reason guys end up in the bullpen is
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: because they do go through stretches where they will lose
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: it a little bit. So, you know, if Sponsan has
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: some of that figured out and is looking more like
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: the guy who they really did trust on the stretch
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: last year, then that's all the better for them, and
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: then he'll have plenty of opportunity to show that, especially
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: if we see a little bit of Gricephol trending the
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: wrong direction, and and Soriano maybe the league starts to
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: see him a little more. Plus who knows what happens
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: with Santic down the stretch as we approach the deadline
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: or Jojo Romero. There are gonna be some moving pieces
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Riley O'Brien. Even there are gonna be some moving pieces
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: in that bullpen. So there will be no lack of
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: opportunity for a lot of these guys.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: So Jeffery, as you know, there are lots of great
• 7:13
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• 7:17
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• 7:20
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• 7:57
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• 8:02
  Speaker 1: frightens at SEEKI let's talk a little bit about Blaze Jeorde. Right,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: he's hit some more RBIs last night, and he's looked
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: pretty good at third base, which I think was the
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: big question mark for a lot of people. Now I
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: don't think he's been super tested. Made a couple of
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: plays back in Saint Louis that we're really good. What
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: does the Cardinals have in Blaze Jordan? Because he hits
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: and he's a guy that beefs up the bottom of
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: the batting order where he takes some of the weak
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: spots out and makes them look like a very competitive
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: top to bottom order. What do they have to Blaze
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Jordan from what you've seen to this point.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was having this conversation in the
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: press box and they were at home earlier this week
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: and kind of laughing about the possibility that, you know,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Blaze Jordan could just show up and be like thirty
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: percent better than league average as a hitter and slightly
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: below average defensively, which is like what you would hope
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: and Nolan Gorman could be right, you know, it is
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: of a funny outcome that it tooked like this so far.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: You're right that that Jordan hasn't really had a lot
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: of serious tests at third base, though you know, he
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: has made a couple of pretty decent plays over there,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: and when you talk to people about what it would
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: look like at third base, I you know, the comparison
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: has always sort of been and I think it's a
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: reasonable comparison. When Johnny Parolto was playing short spout for
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: the Cardinals, right, I think Johnny Paroalta had a season
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: where he committed like no errors or one error or
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: something like that, but it was because he didn't move
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: a lot laterally. If the ball was at him, the
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: ball was ad him and he's going to catch it
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: and he was going to make the play that he
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: needed to make.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: But you weren't gonna get a lot of extra plays
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: out of him.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: And you know what, it plays Jordan can be a
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: guy at third base that can make the plays that
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: are right at him and make the plays.
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: That he has to make. The Cardinals will live with that.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: If he is going to be, you know, a one
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: thirty five, one thirty eight WRC plus kind of guy,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: and he is going to be that much better than
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: an average ederat If he is going to be this
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: sort of, this sort of slugger for them, then they'll
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: cope with a little bowl average defense because again, like
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: that's sort of the Nolan Gorman theory of the case, right,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: is that he's a guy who's going to hit enough
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: that's going to cover up for average to maybe lay
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: little below average defense. And so hard to complain about
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: anything they've gotten out of Blaze Jordan so far, I think,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: you know, but wondering about why it took so long.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: He's reasonable with an extent though they were definitely going
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: to do all they could to give Gorman a chance
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: to sort of pull out of it and then get
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: himself back into a competitive framework. But Jordan has been
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: just about as good as expect. Like, I don't know
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: what you could have asked for about from this guy
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: that you haven't gotten so far.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: If the Cardinals and sometimes guys turn out better, like
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: defensively or offensively, then you play on it. And I'll
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: say he's made three really good plays at their base
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: that I've seen. But I'm talking about tight games where
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: there's a heart smash with runners eye game on the line.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: That's what I mean by testing. So I'm not doubting
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: him by any stretch because he's played very, very well.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying we hadn't seen it. So you mentioned
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Nolan Gorman, who's going to the hitting lanb. I think
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: right now he's sort of, you know, on a gulag
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: on an island somewhere. But the hitting lab has unlocked
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: some things for other guys. What do you think the
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: future may hold for Gorman? Are the Cardinals at this
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: point just saying, let's see if we can get some
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: value out of him, or are they thinking, look, we
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: believe this guy can be a thirty thirty five home or.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: A year guy.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, well, as gulags go, it's a very
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: nice gulog and put a lot of money into the
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: gulog over the last couple of years down there at Jupiter.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I think that things have gotten so bad for Nolan
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Gorman that there really is kind of no downside to
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: taking a step back, sending him down to Memphis, and
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: they're you know, to Memphis. Right he's in Florida working
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: through the hitting lab and working through the things that
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: they think that he needs to work through. Now there
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: is probably some fair question to be asked, how much
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: can you really be con thruck and reconstruct his swing
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: on the guy who's got whatever it is, sixteen hundred
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: plant appearances in the big leagues, who's got three years
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: in big league time. There are a lot of questions
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: about how well that can work, and I don't I
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: don't begross the Cardinals taking some time to figure it out.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: You know, the guy that I sort of think about
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: in the context of Gorman here recently is Dylan Carlson,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: in that the Cardinals eventually reached a point with Carlson
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: where the production was just not there at the big
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: league level, the playing time was not there. That part
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: is a little everything, because Carlson kind of lingered on
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: the roster a little bit in a way that Gorman
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: really didn't. But you know, they reached a point where
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: it was clearly better for both the team and the
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: player to go in a different direction, and he ends
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: up getting traded in in a minor deadline deal the DFA.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: The guy they got for him within like three weeks
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: to the deadline. It was.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: It was sort of nothing, and Dylan Carlson, unfortunately has
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: sort of not really materialized at all in a meaningful
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: lay in the big leagues ever since. So hard to
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: say that they didn't, you know, realize kind of what
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: was going on there. So in terms of Gorman, look
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: if they can get the swing back to being competitive,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: if they can cut the strikeout rate back down to
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: being upper twenties, very low thirties, and you're looking at
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: a guy who who can find you thirty homers, then great.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: But you know, the challenge for a player like Gorman was.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Always going to be that the margin for error was
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: going to be really thin for him, right, because the
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: power has to be substantial to make up for how
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: high the whiff rate is always going to be. So
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: if Gorman is a guy who can hit thirty homers
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: and strike out thirty percent.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Of the time, you can live with that.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: But if he's going to be a guy who's going
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: to hit fifteen homers and strike out thirty seven percent
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: of the time, intolerable and at this point, seventeen homers
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: and thirty seven percent would be an improvement, right, So
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: it's just not there. He's not a competitive big league
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: hitter right now, there's no reason not to take as
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: much time as they possibly can to figure out if
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: they can get him back there, and if they can't,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: maybe there is somebody who would be interested come deadline time,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: because the as far as time frames go, the challenge
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: for Gorman is going to be you know, he's second
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: year arbitration eligible coming up this winner. He's got a
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: twenty seven homer season on his ledger second year. Are
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: guys with that kind of background, are you talking about
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: a guy who's gonna get probably a pretty substantial raise
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: just built in based in the system over what he
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: got this year. And I have a hard time imagining
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: this version of the Cardinals wanting to pay that. So
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: you're talking about a guy who if they can't get
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: it figured out by the end of the end of
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: the season, are we having a.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Conversation about him being non tendered? Right?
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And so if that's the case, then the Cardinals need
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: to know now other thin the next five weeks, if
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: they think they can get him fixed or if there
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: is a way to get some return based on what
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: the market thinks about him right now.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: It's in there at some you know, at some point,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: it's in there. I don't know if we'll see it again,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: but some team will be willing to roll the dice
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: to see if they can bring that back. Yeah, no,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you, but yeah, I want to
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: ask you about Jordan Walker. So he's still hitting, right,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: he's still hitting a couple of hits last night, but yeah,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: the chase right is up and you know, you look
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: around on the Twitter tweets and people are kind of
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: freaking out. Have you seen any regression or is this
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: just the normal ups and downs of a season happens
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: to be a really really good season for Jordan One. Yeah, look,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: have I seen any regression?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've definitely seen some regression right right, the straw
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: get the strikeouts are up. The big concern would probably
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: be the walk rate. I'm looking at it right now.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I just pulled it up as we're talking here. It's
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: three walks in his last one hundred and nine played appearances.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: That's a concern, and that's going to take a bite
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: out of the on base percent. Then, you know, a
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: guy it's a three forty seven on base for the season.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: The last twenty eight days, it's three twelve. In the
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: last two weeks it's two ninety three. And that's just
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: the result of he's not walking as much. Anymore, and
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: the strike out rate is a little up because he
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: has reverted to a little bit of that chase. Some
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: of that is going to get figured out. Some of
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: that is up and downs of the seasons, and some
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: of it is, like you know, we joked about it
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: at the start of the year, right like, how much
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of changes the Cardinals to drop literally.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Air and judge into the lineup.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Probably Jordan Walker is not literally air and judge like
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: right now, right like, He's still a young player. He
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: is still a developing player. He has been sort of,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: you know, the personification of developments, but is still a
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: developing player, and so not totally shocked that he is
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: going to have some cooler stretches like this. If he
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't find it again that continues to turn in this direction,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: then maybe you're having a broader concern. But I think
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: all things considered again, you know, we talk about expectations,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: and we talk about how that changed throughout the season.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Rewind the February first, take a snapshot of his stat
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: line right now, not with the splits, now the last month.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Just say this is what it is.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: On June twentieth, and everyone will be out of their
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: minds thrilled about how all it's gone. So, yeah, the
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: last month maybe hasn't been ideal, but I think he'd
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: give him some time to figure it out.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: And you don't have to worry because you know now.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: But there is at least a baseline of performance that
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: looks like a really solid star major league performer, and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: he can exceed that.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: And you've seen proof of that now.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And I think maybe give him a little room too,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: because when they overcook it in terms of instruction for him,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: we've seen the result. So I hope they give them
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a little space because he's having an amazing season and
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: he's still hit with some of the other numbers on
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: your stands had dropped off a little bit. We're going
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to take a little break here. We'll be come back.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: We'll try to figure out what the future holds for
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Dustin may stick around. This is Cardinal Territory on the
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Foul Territory Network.
• 17:22
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• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So I'm not mistaken. Dustin May goes for the Cardinals
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: tomorrow after their weird Saturday off day today, and May
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: is coming off a complete and one hit shutout, which
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: he said is probably the best outing of his career. Now,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: after the game, he said some things that I think
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of people took to because he said, look,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I've been rejuvenated by the young energy on this team.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I didn't anticipate that, but I think it's brought out
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: something in me that I really like. And I think
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: some people took that as he really wants to stay
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: to where it it tell that I know you're an adult.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I'm an adult. But also if you look at the facts,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: he's a twenty eight year old guy who's had some
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: injury problems in the past. It's a mutual option, so
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals will be on the hook for twenty million.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I just think this guy, as nice as he is
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: and as good as he is, he wants the back
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: and someone is gonna keep from multi years of the bag.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: And as much as he likes the tarps off and
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: the young energy, he wants to get paid. Just your
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: thoughts were where this may end up for dusted may.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Still.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I've spent a lot of time thinking about this over
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: the last week or so, and I actually think that
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: there is probably a pathway to some version of an
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: extension that benefits both sides here and that totally that
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: doesn't totally wipe out his value as.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: An asset right.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: And part of that is because the unique nature of
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: the timing, you know, with the CBA expiring this winner.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: We saw the last time this happened going into going
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: into twenty one, I guess, right, twenty one, Uh, maybe
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: you're going in twenty two and twenty Yeah. Between after
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: twenty one going into twenty two, we saw that there
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: was a weird rush up to the free agent market
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: up up to lockout day, where guys were trying to
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: get signed, and then coming out of the lockout once
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: spring training started, it was a little bit of a
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: short market for guys who didn't get things done in
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: the meantime. You know, the guy that I think about
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: here is Steven Natz, right, a guy who the Cardinals
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: rushed to get done before the lockout happened, because Stephen
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: wanted to know where he was going and wanted to
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: have all that secured. And So when I think about
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: what that looks like in terms of dustin May, what
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I wonder is is there some sort of like short
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: term high dollar extension, a variation on the Sunny Gray
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: deal for instance, that covers May in both ways. So,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: say we're talking about like a three year extension with
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: an opt out after the first year, you would assume
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: that probably the dollars would have to be a little
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: bit more than the mutual option in order to secure that.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And then if you give him an opt out after
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: the first year, he goes into a market next winter,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: which in theory, would not be marred by whatever labor
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: piece is going to happen and would put him into
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: a framework where there's a better understanding of what the
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: new labor situation.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Is going to look like. You know, there is there
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: a cap is there not? Is the qualifying offer still
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: a thing? Is there not? Because all of that is
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: a concern as well.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Right Like, if you're Dustin May, probably the worst outcome
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: from May's perspective would be if the Cardinals held him
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: through the deadline, didn't trade him, and then just went
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: into the winner. Because Dustin can turn down his mutual option,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I would I would certainly expect him to do so
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: at this point, but the Cardinals would then be able
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: to qualify him. Right like we saw this in Chicago
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: last winter. Was showed ATYMNAGA where I believe the I
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: believe the Imanaga had a player option or review was
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: a mutual, but it was for a lot less.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: Than the qualifying offer would have been. That option was
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: turned down.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: The Cubs qualified and because they didn't want to lose
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: him for no value, if you know, for no draft packs.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Monogo just took the qualifying offer pitching on that this year.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: So he gets a big one year raise and he
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: gets to hit free agency next winner without the draftback
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: compensation tied to him. Now, is draftback compensation going to
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: exist for free agents in the winner of twenty twenty seven. Probably,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: But I don't know that we have a really good
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: idea of what that was going to look like and
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: what the system is going to look like.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: And so if you're Dustin.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: May and you're in a spot where it has gone well,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and you are comfortable with the coaches and the plan
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: for you, and you know, knock on what on June twentieth,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: they're able to keep you healthy for the duration of
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: a season, I do understand the appeal of wanting to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: stay in that place for maybe another year. Because you
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: mentioned May is twenty eight the tree he turns twenty
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: nine to the very end of the season. But this
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: is his age twenty eight year. Next year is his
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: age twenty nine year. If he's in a position where
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: he's getting himself to free agency ahead of his age
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: thirty season, he probably still is going to get paid.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: You know, when you look at the history of how
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: free agent deals have worked out for guys, for position
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: players over thirty, it's pretty bleak for pictures a lot
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: less so because pitchers are generally more able to sign
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: those sort of shorter turn deals for really high dollars
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: and they can still make their money. So, you know,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: not reporting, but as of for instance, if the Cardinals
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: were to go to Dustin May and say it's three
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: years and seventy five million, and it's thirty million next year,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and it steps down and it's an opt out after
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: the first year, there are probably variations of an extension
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: that cover everyone here, and it's just a matter of
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: whether or not the Cardinals feel like they're going to
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: need a guy like that to stabilize their rotation, and
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: whether they're willing and able to the extend the ownership
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: once to do it, to spend that kind of money
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: on a free agent. You know, I don't know that
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: we necessarily know that yet, but he would need interesting
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: test case to find out.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: So way everything you're saying, which makes a lot of
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: sense to me, you're talking about expenditure, you're talking about negotiation,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: over here. And on the other hand, you have trade
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: deadline where you have perhaps the most well peace for
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: a team that's rebuilding and wants to stockpile has meant
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: as much controllably YO talent as it possibly can't, right,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's yeah, that's a that's a pretty big
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: piece of this, isn't it It is?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: And I you know, the guy that I think about
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: in terms of May and the trade deadline is Jordan Montgomery, right,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: who was in sort of a similar spot in his
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: career when the Cardinals traded him with the deadline in
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. And also, you know, Montgomery was a
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: guy who had some of the similar flags to May,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: had a little bit of health stuff in his background,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: has had more sense, but you know, and a guy
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: who maybe you didn't think of as being like a
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: guaranteed from the rotation, gonna start game one in the
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: playoffs kind of guy. It's certainly probably Dustin May would
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: for the Cardinals at this point. But you know, if
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: you're if you're a contender and you're adding a starter,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: you're probably not adding Dustin May with the idea that
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: he's your number one starter. He's your he's year two,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: hopefully year three probably if you're adding him, you know,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: as a real contending team.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: But for for.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Montgomery, the Cardinals got in return John King.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Who you know, not spectacular but was a solid contributor
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: out of the bullpen for them for basically two full seasons.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: They get back Thomas to jac who at the time
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: was was a fairly polished hitting project who are hitting
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: prospect rather who hasn't really hasn't translated totally to the
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: big leagues yet, but I think there is definitely still
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: some hopes of belief that so JC at least is
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: going to be a viable utility guy in the big
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: leagues or for a period of time. And then it
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: was to Koha Robi, who was like a super high ceiling,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: super high floor, all stuff, no health, kinde lotto ticket prospect,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: And that has played out almost exactly to script, right
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: like Roby has great stuff, he's recovering from Tommy John surgery.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: The Cardinals are certainly hopeful he's a contributor for them
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: in you know, a year and a half, two years whatever.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: That is not a guarantee just based on his health story.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: So all of that is to say, like, well, the
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Cardinals got back in that deal. There were definitely pieces
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: of value in that deal, but nothing that really blow
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: you away. Now, maybe three years from that, we're looking
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: at to Koorobie and going Actually trading Jordan Montgomery was
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: the best thing the John mose looc ever did. Maybe,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: but you're nothing that came back on that deal as
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: anything that resembles like a guarantee.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Right, So in trading Dustin May.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: You were probably likely to get back two or three
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: in theory, pretty high value pieces, but not a lot
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: of guarantee. And you know, accepting that there is going
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: to need some risk with those deadline deals is part
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: of accepting what a trade off, you know, and selling
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: guys off kind of looks like it's it's not a
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: guarantee you will get bodies back, but whether those guys contribute, it's,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: you know, we'll see.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: That's why I got to do what i'm's doing. Stop
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: pile as much uncontrollable talent as you possibly can't, because
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: in terms of prospects, how many actually pan out, it's
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not a really high number, that's for sure.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: No last then, so we're past flag Day and the
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Cardinals are still playing good baseball save the last two regames.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Hasn't been great against the teams that are very beatable.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: But let's say the Cardinals. Everyone says ten games over
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: five to ten. Let's say the Cardinals are still playing
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: competitive baseball, the kind of baseball that can win you
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: around or two. Because their lineup now is different than
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: it was to start the season, makes them like a
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: totally different animal. Do you think that will impact him
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: at all? He's told me, I know, he's told you. Look,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: long term goal is to be chasing a World Series
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: title every year, like to be that consistent in terms
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: of how good you are, and that takes time to
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: build of get that, and he's started that process. But
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: you have a chance to climb through that window of
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: opportunity this year. Do you think that he is willing
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: to give a little bit more to add what they
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: might need now to make a run and sort of
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: reward your players and maybe the fans and the tarps
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: off guys with a shot at you know, it's it's
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: hard to see where they would really be able to
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: add a lot that makes sense in terms of where
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: they want to be at competitively. I guess the difference
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: there would be well.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: And that you.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Get that's the easiest thing and the less the least constantly.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Thing to try to shure up. In my opinion, I agree,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: But I think in order to make those spots in
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the bullpen, what you're talking about is, you know, you're
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: probably trading Stannik and Romero kind of no matter what.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So are you getting a net game there? Are you
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: finding two guys in the market that are definitely better
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: than those two guys Stank Maybe you know, the numbers
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: haven't been great for Stanic this year.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Romero, it's tough.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: It has not been his best season, but he's also
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: been one of the more reliable and heavily us lefty
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: relievers kind of in all of baseball for the last
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: four or five years, kind of really kind of been
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: an underrated and he's been able to do for the Cardinals.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: So sure, you can definitely go find some relievers that help,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: and you can upgrade the Sponson and Grisepho and Ragic
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: parts of your bullpen. What does that cost you? You know,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: it's hard to say. I do think that there are
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: some areas where the Cardinals can trade from strength, right
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: like so like catching, for instance, there will be teams.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: There have been teams that are interested in Pedro Payaz
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and what he can do for them. Now, is that
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: going to be a big you know, a big ticket
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to cash and no, probably not.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: But can you flip him for say, a controllable reliever? Right? Sure?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that's Maybe that's a place where you're dealing
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: from strength to to find something that can both help
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: you now and that can last kind of into the future.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: You know, is there is there young starting talent available somewhere?
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Do the Mariners finally get themselves into a spot where
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: they're willing to trade one of their starters? So far
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: they say no, you know, and they're they're more than
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: willing to do this peggybag thing that they're doing. Maybe
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: the other thing too again, you know, I was having
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: this conversation with someone the other day. It should it's
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: impossible for to believe that they're going to go two
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: full seasons without a starter getting hurt. They went all
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five and didn't have a starter get hurt.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: It seems preposterous that could happen two years in a row.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: But it hasn't happened yet.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Again, you know, where we're approaching eighty games into the
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: season or whatever, and they haven't had a starter missed
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: a start due to injury yet. So maybe maybe they
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: have some sort of program figured out here where they're
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: going to take care of guys better than anybody else
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: ever could. So are there going to be obvious thoughts
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: where you can add to deadline? There there might be
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: some the cost of those editions. That that is where
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: it gets tough for me. And you know, for me,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: the question is less.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Do they add or not and more who do they
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: hold and not? And you know, as we.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Were just talking about, I can make an argument for
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: holding on Dustin May if you have an extension figured
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: out or close.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I have a harder time.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Making an argument holding on to ballten guys, just because
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I think broadly relievers are replaceable, right like more than
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: more than position players, more than starters.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: You can approximate what.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: You're getting out of out of pretty good relievers, hopefully
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: if you know, if your team, hopefully in your system,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: but if not, that probably is available on the market somewhere.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So that's you know, that's Romero, that's Stantic, that's maybe
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Riley O'Brien. If there's somebody out there, who really wants
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: to pay through the nose for that guy? You have
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: depth in catching, you have whatever is going on with Korman. Again,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: these are not super high value pieces right now, but
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: they are at least ways where the Cardinals could shuffle
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: things around, perform a little surgery that looks like forward progress,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: and still not give up important future pieces in search
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: of things that maybe do help them in the short term.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: The word that I'm uses is creative. He told me, Look,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: if there's that opportunity, they would pursue it in a
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: creative way without jeopardizing their long term plants. That makes
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Jeff. As always, you're a great
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: guest and you gave us a lot to think about.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Hopefully people check out your blood.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: What's it called one more time? Words about birds, words
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: about burns, dot com, words about words. Jeff.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Thanks, that's gonna do it for this edition of Cardinal Territory.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. Hopefully that episode will suck.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: H