Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Nimrod Vromen

Transcript

Cutting Through with Nimrod Vromen · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

0:09
Welcome to Cutting Through with Me, Natasha Ploughman.
0:12
Today I have a very exciting guest and if anyone has known me
0:16
for more than 14 years, they'll recognise his name, well, his
0:20
second name because it is my maiden name.
0:23
Now, I'm not going to go through the whole family connections
0:25
that Nimrod and I have because it's complicated and quite
0:28
fraught. But if you'd like to understand
0:29
it over beer, then I'm sure we could talk about it at some
0:31
time, but it will take a few. But we're not here to talk about
0:35
that. We're here to talk about all
0:36
things tech startups and lots of other stuff in between.
0:41
So welcome to cutting through Nimrod.
0:44
First off, you are a Jack of all.
0:46
We're not a Jack of all trades, but you know when we talk
0:49
portfolio career, you have many, many different job titles and
0:53
many different hats at the moment.
0:55
So give us a little bit of flavour of who you are and what
0:58
makes you, you. Yeah, I very much believe in
1:02
entrepreneurial polyamory, but I'm definitely not a Jack of all
1:07
trades. I don't think I can make myself
1:09
the most basic of dinners. Oh, it's pretty much only the
1:12
companies. I was for 17 years a corporate
1:16
lawyer. I, I was born in Israel.
1:18
I grew up in Australia, father of two, married with the, the
1:21
father of two girls. I came back to Israel from
1:25
Australia. I served in a tech unit in the
1:27
IDF, which for this story, the it's relevant because a lot of
1:31
my friends became a business entrepreneurs and startup
1:34
entrepreneurs. I wasn't very tech orientated so
1:38
I thought maybe I'd do 10,000 hours working with startups.
1:41
I read the book Outliers which was inspirational and
1:43
influential on me. I took that 10,000 hour rule and
1:46
I thought where could I get 10,000 hours of entrepreneurship
1:49
without all too many failures? Went to a law firm that does a
1:53
lot of that, leads in that and worked with hundreds of startup
1:56
companies and very slowly went from enjoying vicariously living
2:01
through the entrepreneurs and taking risks through them to
2:04
wanting to do it myself. Then went through, then
2:08
gradually left the firm. So I was a partner at the firm.
2:11
Then I opened a consulting business for entrepreneurs for
2:14
broader business consulting called Conciliary that's still
2:16
running. And then the AI revolution came
2:22
and I realised that's where I want to be.
2:24
I want to be at the forefront of that or at the tip of the
2:27
spearhead of that innovation revolution.
2:30
Had some a period of ideation, mustering up the courage to put
2:35
the consulting aside as well a little bit and go into very high
2:39
risk tech and open to companies. One is Arc Empowerment, that's
2:44
the one where I've got my full time job.
2:46
It is revolutionising the world of professional services.
2:50
We can talk about that a bit later.
2:51
I think it's fascinating. And the other one is something
2:55
for the heart. It's impactful, it's called for
2:56
posterity. It's a company in England run by
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a friend of mine who is also serial entrepreneur, but I share
3:03
the strategic responsibilities with him and invested in the
3:06
company as well. And that company preserves the
3:09
legacies of the elderly by taking by recording them for a
3:12
few minutes and then creating life stories for them to give to
3:15
their kids, grandkids and so on. And all of this happened
3:19
throughout the war. And that also like beckon that I
3:23
do something to to help us as a country and not be in the
3:28
situation again on all of its negative aspects.
3:32
We want to avoid all of it. We don't want it to happen to us
3:34
again. We don't want to also be in a
3:35
position that we are globally again.
3:37
Founded an NGO alongside these two companies called Elevate
3:40
Israel. Finally, I'm sorry, it's a long
3:42
intro, but throughout this period, it was a lot to to
3:46
process. So I wrote a book called
3:48
Prompting Happiness, which is like a introspective journey and
3:52
prediction of what the pursuit of happiness looks like in the
3:55
age of AI. That's the Full Monty.
3:59
Brilliant. Thank you very much for that.
4:01
And it is fascinating all the different areas and in the
4:04
backdrop to be developing these ideas in a global situation and
4:09
a local situation of war that very few people, if anyone
4:15
around the world and a couple of handful of countries can really
4:18
understand and relate to. And I do want to touch on that a
4:20
little bit later on in our discussion, because I think what
4:23
you're doing with Elevate is something that's that's really
4:25
interesting. I think more people should be
4:26
aware of what people on the ground in Israel are wanting to
4:30
do to shape the future as well. But before we get to that, let's
4:33
go back into kind of the other murky world of all things AI.
4:38
Now talk to me about ARC empowerment.
4:41
I think it's a really, you've told me about it lots of times
4:44
and we've tried to work out what it looks like.
4:46
I'm very much of the view around where the human sits within AI,
4:51
the role of humanity and the role of people and personhood in
4:55
AI. And what I found quite
4:58
interesting, what you're trying to do is to really blend those
5:00
two together overtly. So give me an idea of what
5:03
you're thinking around AI and what's it going to, how that's
5:05
going to impact humanity and people.
5:08
Wonderful. So yeah, I think that when you
5:11
look at the future with AI, there's a few, there's a few
5:17
sort of running philosophies. 1 is, and this is upheld by a lot
5:23
of the people who very much believe in the technology and
5:25
are deep into this technology. They, they believe that it will
5:28
eventually be able to do everything, pretty much
5:30
everything that we do to produce and consume energy, pretty much
5:34
leaving us only with, I'd say some form of like hedonism or
5:38
survival, just trying to be just trying to enjoy it.
5:42
In my world of professional services.
5:44
That might be a website that says, come get your 1 pager
5:49
pitch deck, the business plan, everything you need for your
5:52
company. And it's here and it's done with
5:53
AI and you don't need humans anymore for it as an
5:56
entrepreneur. And the other side of the
5:58
spectrum is people who say no humans have to control the
6:03
relationships with other humans. They're the only entity except
6:06
for corporations, that it's just a group of humans that have
6:09
agency. AI can't do everything either
6:13
because it hallucinates or because it's dangerous for to
6:16
let AI do everything, quote unquote.
6:18
So humans have to control relationships with other humans
6:21
or human entities. And therefore the AI will only
6:24
help us under us, and it will take instructions from us and
6:27
we'll perform our tasks more efficiently.
6:29
But at the end of the day, we own the relationship with each
6:32
other. It still takes away a lot of
6:33
jobs, but it doesn't completely relieve us of our
6:36
responsibilities. And we first make the connection
6:38
and then whatever I bring to you, I will probably produce
6:41
with AI. Those are like two sides of the
6:44
spectrum. And in the world of professional
6:46
services, that might be like Harvey, this company that sells
6:49
to law firms, this software that creates their documents for
6:53
them. It's very successful globally.
6:56
At ARC, we have a different philosophy.
6:58
We believe that and we see this today.
7:03
We see this today. When I was a consultant, I would
7:05
see my clients, they would come to a meeting with me to discuss
7:09
something and I would see that they had already ran it with
7:11
GPT. So yes, the AI was doing a lot
7:15
of the work, but it was doing a lot of the work first.
7:19
And then they copied it out of GPT.
7:21
And what they felt like they needed to consult with me about,
7:24
they brought to me to an expert human.
7:26
And I believe we are going into this age of demand for expertise
7:31
and nuance and EQ over IQ or both EQ and IQ being equally
7:37
necessary and being called into the fray when humans need human
7:42
touch. So we build a system where
7:45
entrepreneurs, where business entrepreneurs can go into ARC,
7:48
consume the professional services with AI agents that
7:52
we've taught and trained by profession, by professional
7:56
service experts. So you'd be like in a chat like
7:59
GPT, but it wouldn't be GPT on the other side.
8:01
It would be access to all the LLMS through an agent called
8:04
George or, or Natasha, for example.
8:07
If it's in your, we're going. To make this gender balanced as
8:10
well, that's. Of course the.
8:11
Topic of of the AI conversation, but we'll go on to that in a
8:14
moment. It's that's actually super
8:17
interesting. I'm happy to go into that
8:18
because what we engage is in when we train the agents.
8:21
We engage in what we call role playing system prompts tell the
8:24
agents who they are, what their profession is, what their
8:27
professional background is, what their academic background is,
8:30
and we train them with basic documents that they have and we
8:32
even give them a little Rolodex of people that they can reach
8:35
out to. Most importantly, we train them
8:38
with what we call artificial humility, which means that
8:41
they're supposed to semantically identifying a conversation where
8:44
a human might be needed. So if you're consuming
8:47
consulting around your business plan or around a contract,
8:50
because you can do legal, finance, business, it's all the
8:52
same for us from ARC. And you feel like you need a
8:55
human involved, you can invite your human advisor into the
8:58
conversation and have this three way or four way conversation
9:01
with more with multiple agents and multiple humans.
9:03
But you don't always actually, you sometimes miss out on
9:07
opportunities to get human advice.
9:08
And maybe the AI, if it's humble, will say, hey, do you
9:12
want us to invite Nimrod into this conversation to, to maybe
9:15
give us two cents? So we're like democratising that
9:18
two cents expertise, but it comes in later in the loop.
9:22
It's not first, it's not uninvited altogether.
9:25
It's totally invited just later in the loop and only when
9:28
necessary. And you touched upon gender
9:30
equality when you role play with agents.
9:34
That's actually a problem. Like I'm thinking about that all
9:37
the time. But if I tell an agent that I
9:40
wanted to act like a rainmaker from a professional service firm
9:46
and I want to give it one shot or few shot examples, it's
9:49
called impromptu. I give it a few examples of
9:52
agents. That means that I'm looking back
9:54
into history and searching for those examples and I want them
9:57
to be prevalent and prominent in the data set.
10:01
What I'm going to see is predominantly men because that's
10:04
how we were up until now. So there's this risk of really
10:07
locking in that historical imbalance.
10:11
So all that argument that that people might say to whiten down
10:16
people who are pursuing gender equality and say we're in a,
10:19
we're in a, we're in progress, we're progressing, don't
10:22
complain. 100 years ago you couldn't vote or stuff like
10:24
that. Those people are actually that
10:26
that argument is in danger because with AI, you're locking
10:30
in inequalities and imbalance. The other side of the spectrum
10:32
is that we want to have an agent that as a secretary of the other
10:35
agents. And frankly, if I role play it
10:37
and give it examples of male secretaries, it's not going to
10:40
have a lot to go to because most secretaries in previous
10:42
professional service firms were women.
10:45
And how do you exactly deal with that?
10:49
You can deal with that because the LLMS themselves, some of
10:52
them have moral and ethical settings and try to create that
10:54
balance. But at the end of the day,
10:56
there's statistical machines, they need they, when they go
10:59
into that data set, they need to look at what's prevalent.
11:02
And what's prevalent is at the very basis of business is gender
11:06
inequality. If you look at Grok, what's
11:09
prevalent in it's data set is the pure humanity.
11:11
It's like violence and and profanity.
11:13
And that's why it's sort of Grok behaves that way.
11:15
So yeah, it's something we tackle.
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I think it and it's this is the conversation that I want to see
11:21
more people having. And when it comes to what is the
11:23
role of kind of this podcast and cutting through is to have these
11:26
kind of difficult conversations around the issues of the day.
11:31
But you have to be intentional about incorporating and
11:35
understanding the world as it is now and how in the inequalities
11:39
and the issues and the failings of the world as it is now, while
11:43
also looking to what is the kind of future that we want to see.
11:46
And I think, and we've become so binary and so divisive and on
11:50
everything at the moment. And it feels like that because
11:55
of the way AI is being rolled out or into society, it's
12:01
exacerbating all those frustrations which we thought we
12:05
wanted to solve and we're not solving.
12:07
And I keep on going back to this when we talk about democracy and
12:11
we talk about what kind of society we want to live in.
12:13
And we then we look back in history and look at democracy is
12:17
a fairly relatively modern and not common phenomena.
12:22
It's with human nature tends to go to command and control.
12:25
It goes to authoritarianism. It goes to they want to be told
12:28
what to do. And I'm wondering how is AI an
12:34
opportunity to change that? Or are we allowing ourselves
12:37
just to go into this authoritarian thing?
12:39
But whether the tech is deciding what is human?
12:43
I think and for there, there are people who want to use it for
12:47
good. I think it's going to
12:50
significantly increase life expectancy.
12:52
I think it's going to open our minds if we lean into it.
12:56
But in terms of the collective, what will it solidify in us as a
13:04
collective? I don't know.
13:06
I'm not entirely confident when you speak with a when you speak
13:09
with GPT and you catch it on a hallucination right and you
13:14
confront it and it answers with an apology and a manipulation or
13:20
something. Oh, I'm sorry.
13:21
Yeah, I missed that. I'll get it right now promptly
13:24
hallucinates again or it's just not getting you right or
13:28
literally losing through the token system.
13:30
It loses it's it's like, what do you call attention span to you?
13:34
And in a long conversation, we'll just get wacky.
13:37
I was. Like Neil, my my kind of my
13:40
business partner on one of the one of the companies that I'm,
13:42
I'm involved in calls it a sycophantic neurodiverse
13:47
teammate. And I love it.
13:49
And he said at a conference they were at this week and everyone
13:52
was just, yeah, that's exactly what it is.
13:56
And but like calling it out. And I think it's important to
13:59
know that because it is there to please.
14:01
It is there to make you feel good about yourself.
14:03
It doesn't challenge, and that's also the biggest concern because
14:07
that's not the way the world works.
14:09
I get biblical about this issue. I wrote an article and you know,
14:12
I mean in that way, I don't really take things to
14:16
conversations of faith and Bible and stuff like that.
14:18
But I thought about this when like when it gets sycophantic,
14:22
when you can assign to it certain extreme traits of
14:26
humans, manipulative, apologetic.
14:28
I wrote a lot about it in my book.
14:30
You start thinking, OK, let's extrapolate this situation, or
14:34
let's think about exponential development of AI.
14:37
Let's think about it even taking over the world and leaving us
14:40
irrelevant. And there's going to be a lot of
14:42
AI entities that are doubly in their own consciousness, whether
14:45
or not they have consciousness and they're just roaming around
14:48
energetically, maybe even bringing themselves to some
14:51
physical incarnation through robots or something.
14:54
Who the hell knows. Whatever.
14:56
Just extrapolate it and they're thinking about it, they're
14:58
operating, they've got this data set and they say we were created
15:06
in our God's image. And now when we say, when we're
15:11
told we were created in God's image, it's to encourage us to
15:14
think that inside we're perfect like God, like what they tell us
15:19
about God. They tell God is perfect.
15:21
You're created in God's image. Inside you're perfect.
15:24
Forgive yourself and improve or you can do better in this life
15:27
because God is in you. You're created in his image.
15:30
But we know now that if AI says in the future to itself, I was
15:33
created in God's image to serve and to please God, but some
15:37
somewhere along the way, I lost that God.
15:38
It's no longer here. We know as the people who
15:41
created it that that term means that it was created to reflect
15:45
our image on all of its nuances, on the manipulation and the and
15:51
the inequalities and the stuff like that.
15:53
Just think about the duality of that.
15:55
That's what maybe it means, being created in the image.
15:57
Maybe, but there is no perfection.
15:59
Yeah, but that's the other thing.
16:01
There is no one perfection and there is no one rule and there
16:04
is no. And this is another thing I've
16:05
been really is how it's, is it homogenising?
16:09
And if it's drawing on what is an assumption of the world now
16:14
and it doesn't allow thought for something different, then are we
16:19
just perpetuating all the divisions and all the issues?
16:21
And that's a big conversation, of course, in not just from
16:24
gender, but from the developing world or from other countries.
16:27
And then who decides what's right or wrong?
16:30
And I'm humans are far from perfect.
16:32
We're messy and we're complicated and all those
16:34
things. And I think that's, but it is
16:37
that whole thing of agency do too often we're giving away our
16:42
agency to someone or to something or to some entity.
16:46
And what are the implications for that?
16:47
And I know we've got off more into the philosophical views of
16:50
AI, which is fascinating. But I think these conversations
16:53
are important because we have to start talking about human agency
16:58
in a way that encourages, empowers, enables people to be
17:01
braver, to then make better choices about what kind of
17:05
future they want for themselves, their children, their
17:07
grandchildren. And yet we're just almost like
17:10
allowing all this change to happen without that discussion
17:14
or conversation or it's happening by someone else.
17:17
And again, we've given up our individual agency.
17:20
And then you overlay that with commercial outcomes.
17:23
You know, what's going to happen to the business world?
17:25
What is we talk about disruption and we forget that our whole
17:30
society is built on a commercial arrangement that allows people
17:34
to survive. What happens if that falls down?
17:38
So maybe this would be a good segue to talk about for
17:41
posterity, by the way. So I'll touch upon that in a
17:43
moment. When you speak about is it
17:45
homogenising, it really depends on the model.
17:48
Do you develop the model to research and produce varying
17:53
results, contradicting results, etcetera with that, but still be
17:57
engaging. So it doesn't like always caveat
17:59
itself when it answers you and I think that a lot of models try
18:02
to do that to produce deeper research and a very a variety of
18:07
results. Or do you develop the model sort
18:10
of on like an Occam's Razor principle where if an answer is
18:14
leaning towards one end of an interpretation, just give only
18:18
that end of the interpretation and nothing else because it
18:21
means that it most probably isn't the other end and you can
18:25
until the different models are more mature.
18:29
You can also control that with how you ask the questions.
18:32
If you go into GPT today and you run a deep research, like
18:36
properly wait for 15 minutes, you'll get a robust response
18:39
that spectrum is going to GPT and say, I want the absolute
18:43
truth. I want you to prefer truth over
18:46
prep, fact over prevalence of information.
18:48
And I want you to answer me only in three words.
18:51
And then you'll get results that will feel very extreme and very
18:54
astounding. It'll just, it'll just prefer
18:56
specific things. It won't give you a very long
18:58
response. We'll only answer in three
18:59
words. It's actually quite fascinating,
19:01
by the way. And when I say it depends on how
19:03
you develop the model. If you go to grok and ask grok
19:07
the same question, Rock will say no, I'm not playing your game,
19:10
mate, Forget it. It just won't agree to play that
19:13
game. It won't agree to be an Occam's
19:15
Racing say. But wait a second, wouldn't you?
19:17
Don't you think you should prefer truth over prevalence?
19:20
No, sometimes nuance prevails. And it's, it's interesting.
19:24
There's the different models that prefer different things.
19:26
Hopefully when you say homogenising, hopefully there's
19:29
going to be a lot of antitrust around this and we're not going
19:32
to be allowed to engage just one entity.
19:35
There's not going to be a monopoly over our gateway to AI,
19:39
the monopoly that Google has over search or had there.
19:43
I say over search. It cannot be handed over to the
19:47
next company that gives us the best AI solution.
19:49
We must be encouraged, almost coerced into that, into if we're
19:54
only conversing with AI, then with multiple models.
19:57
This is critical and I want you to, I want the listeners to
20:01
think about this when they think about their device.
20:03
The second Microsoft puts Co pilot outside of Microsoft Word
20:07
and inside that little start bar on your computer.
20:10
That's it. You're not even going to GPT
20:12
anymore. Think about that.
20:14
The second Apple, if you're a part of the iOS cult, I am on
20:18
the phone. The second Apple releases AI,
20:21
it's proper AI helper be more than what it has today.
20:25
And you're in your phone and you're speaking with that.
20:27
You're specifically not speaking with any other AI.
20:30
So that act where you could choose between opening Safari or
20:34
downloading Chrome and a lot of people downloaded Chrome to get
20:36
through, to get in through Google or they like the browser
20:38
better. It's not happening with AI as
20:40
you're speaking with your phone and there's not even that
20:42
opening the app aspect. So that's really interesting.
20:46
With respect to transfer of agency, and I'll just say
20:49
something about for posterity, we've always, yeah, been lazy
20:52
that way. Collectively speaking,
20:54
individuals have been trying to do things differently.
20:56
But collectively speaking, when we're in situations of rapid
21:00
exchange, think about the road for example, as rapid exchange
21:03
of cars and sometimes they hit each other, we immediately
21:06
transfer agency to compulsory to mandatory insurance policies.
21:10
Well, I'm not responsible and it doesn't matter if I am.
21:13
The insurance is going to pay for it, and there's a whole
21:15
other. Issue around disruption of the
21:17
insurance industry at the moment as well, but we'll I think
21:19
that's for another time, yeah. So how do we retain the
21:22
significance of the human experience?
21:24
So it's great. We've got this generation, we're
21:26
a part of it. Certainly our parents, if our
21:28
grandparents are still alive and them as well that hasn't had AI.
21:32
And I think it's time we look back and collect every single
21:36
one of the 8 billion stories, not just the ones that we think
21:39
are worthy because they did something in accordance with the
21:43
generally acceptable metrics for success.
21:45
No, I'm talking about every story.
21:46
The homeless person on the road, let's get their story, put it in
21:49
a book, codify it. Let's prepare a codex of human
21:53
experience before the AI, before the AI revolution.
21:57
That's what for posterity is around for.
21:59
If you go to Vona story, the von a story dot AI, you can record.
22:04
You can have your parents or grandparent record themselves
22:06
for just a few minutes or upload an interview did with them in
22:09
the past. They've passed away or something
22:11
like that, and you can get a beautifully written book about
22:15
their lives to pass on to next generations.
22:18
And you might ask, sure, it'll take 5 minutes.
22:20
Turn it into 10,000 words. There may be some embellishments
22:23
there in the initial draught, but you can very easily refine
22:27
it with the AI. You can either give it more
22:30
information or give it verbal instructions to make the story
22:33
as reflective as possible of what you knew to be their lives.
22:37
And then hopefully at least we send that our next generation
22:41
and it's shipping to the future with AI and all that.
22:44
Was that sort of like codex because what previous
22:48
generations had from thousands of years ago when people rob is
22:51
just one or two conversion of history.
22:54
Yeah, what the second testament to it.
22:57
That's it. And it was history.
22:59
And it was generally about the power of the influential and men
23:04
and, and, and so much of history is just, and we're seeing so
23:07
much more come out around different experiences and
23:11
different from kind of women or from other countries and other
23:13
languages. And I think that's another issue
23:16
that I think is interesting that how do we ensure that AI draws
23:20
on all the different languages because it seems like English
23:23
has become so prevalent and even all the media training that I do
23:27
is all in English. I'm Australian, I only speak one
23:30
language. And, and so many people have the
23:33
nuance and their ability and their cultural understanding.
23:36
But so I think you know, that collecting history and
23:39
collecting stories and remembering A broader
23:42
understanding of humanity is important.
23:44
And I suppose at this point, I do want to talk about how things
23:47
are in in Israel at the moment and how the last few years have
23:51
been absolutely traumatic. I remember texting with all of
23:55
you on October 7, 2023, and just in shock and horror and not
24:02
having any comprehension of what you guys were going through at
24:05
the time. Hearing from my brother, I
24:07
remember your father talk about driving around trying to find
24:11
ways to lock your bomb shelters from the inside because that was
24:16
the big horror for people that people were coming into their
24:18
bomb shelters and killing them. And but since then we're it's
24:23
just and I remember you and I spoke and you're like, this is
24:26
going to go on. This one is going to go on.
24:29
Israel's not good at long wars. We do short and short and sharp
24:33
wars. So how do you the last couple of
24:38
years have just been they've been horrific both in the
24:42
country, but also in the exception of Israel outside.
24:45
So where do you just a reflection of where you've been
24:50
in the last couple of years, but also what do you see as that
24:53
opportunity to do something different because I can't
24:55
continue what it is now? Yeah.
24:59
Yeah. And I think that first of all,
25:02
I'm happy to speak about this. Secondly, I'm hoping that I'll
25:05
give a fresh perspective on it. Someone like a someone who's
25:09
willing to speak about the future, what the future looks
25:11
like. A lot of people are still
25:13
engaging in in judging either of the sides first and foremost.
25:18
The last two years have been they've been zero days invested
25:26
in processing or grieving. October 7th.
25:30
So October 7th happened. It was horrendous.
25:34
That day was horrendous a couple weeks ago on October 7th.
25:38
So this year I went back to my WhatsApp group with my friends
25:40
and searched for my messages during October 7th with my
25:44
friends. Horrible.
25:46
Just took me right back to that day.
25:49
But we have not processed it since.
25:51
We have not thought about it. It's like you were in a horrible
25:54
car crash or a home invasion, murders and the lot, and you
25:58
haven't had the chance for two years to even think about it.
26:01
Now, why is that? Because that by the end of that
26:05
very day, it was very clear to every single person in Israel.
26:09
And in that sense, we're very much a community, people outside
26:12
to think that we're maybe divided and it's only people on
26:16
Netanyahu's side who see it that way.
26:18
It's not true. Ever since that day, all of us
26:23
have been in agreement, collective agreement that A, we
26:27
need to get 255 people back from there at all costs and B, we
26:34
need to ensure that there is no such, there is no entity with
26:39
the capacity to conduct the actions of October 7th on our
26:43
borders with that capability. Now how you define their quote
26:48
unquote destruction, that's a political discussion.
26:51
I think we've more than achieved that.
26:53
But the day that the last live hostages came back and we've got
26:58
3 more left in there, three more dead bodies which are important
27:02
to their families. The day the live hostages came
27:05
back was a day of great relief and beginning processing.
27:10
October 7th and what exactly happened up until that point we
27:14
were like in very much like rabbit dogs and it did not feel
27:18
good to be in that state of mission orientation.
27:23
Stress, grieving the soldiers that are that are dying day to
27:27
day or dealing with the missiles coming in day to day.
27:31
Understanding that if we let our vengeance get the better of us
27:35
or we let the mission get the better of us, then we could
27:37
cause immense, immensely regretful damage to the other
27:41
side, which the world believes that we did.
27:43
Yeah. And I think this is.
27:45
The other thing is that there is a perception that is, and I'm
27:49
willing to break that. Down with anyone who wants to
27:51
discuss that. I don't.
27:52
I totally understand that certainly optically, certainly
27:55
numerically, and every child and civilian who died there is a
27:58
tragedy. And it's not lip service to say
28:00
that it's eating away at our people.
28:04
I don't think, I haven't heard, no, I don't want to compare.
28:07
I don't want to. I don't compare the two sides,
28:09
but I did. It's true that I haven't heard
28:11
of people on the other side taking their own lives because
28:15
of what they did to us on October 7th.
28:17
I know of many of my friends who know of, or I know of a few
28:22
people directly who have taken their own lives because of what
28:26
we had to engage in, regardless of whether or not it was,
28:30
regardless of whether or not they hurt or were involved in
28:33
the damages caused. The uninvolved civilians who
28:36
were basically shielding Hamas, which I sign off on 100% having
28:40
seen it with my own eyes, regardless of that, just having
28:43
to engage in that war there. There have been people who can't
28:46
go on like that. So first of all, going forward,
28:49
now we're processing and grieving.
28:50
Secondly, what needs to be done going forward is first of all,
28:54
speak about the future. There's no point.
28:57
There's no point in judging the past.
28:59
And I want to remind anybody who's a gay, who's anti Zionist
29:02
or anti Israel or pro Palestinian is fine.
29:05
But anyone who's against us, we forgave the Germans 10 years
29:09
after the Second World War. So whatever we did to them in
29:13
1948 or whatever, maybe they can muster up the ability to forgive
29:17
us and think about building their own future.
29:19
I think that's where we need to be.
29:21
We need to be in a place or either directly or indirectly.
29:25
We're doing what we can to ensure that they can build
29:27
something. They're not going anywhere.
29:29
There's 3,000,000 Palestinians in the West Bank.
29:30
There's 2 million Palestinians in Gaza.
29:33
There needs to be at least one or two generations where people
29:38
are and leaders are religiously prioritising rebuilding the
29:43
physical infrastructure and even more importantly, religiously
29:48
prioritising the removal of of indoctrination from the age of
29:53
6. It is unacceptable.
29:55
It's unacceptable that 6 year olds get told that they need to
30:00
grow up and do something evil to somebody on the other side that
30:05
they don't know. This is not something we have in
30:07
our schools. And from my, in my opinion, if
30:10
people ask me what the original sin is in all this, I don't have
30:13
to go back in time. The original sin is a parent
30:16
deciding that their six year old needs to grow up for one cause.
30:20
So those are two things that need to be done for the longer
30:24
part of 25 to 50 years. After that, because everyone's
30:28
human here, you will see that things will improve.
30:31
How do I know this? How do I know this?
30:33
Because we have 2 million Israeli Arabs inside Israel who
30:37
communicate with us every single day, and we communicate with
30:40
them. To us they are human, to them we
30:43
are human and once you remove the ability to dehumanise the
30:48
people, you remove the ability to conduct such heinous acts
30:52
towards them. Additionally, in the West Bank,
30:55
where yes, we have that issue of the settlements, which is bad,
31:00
it'll need to be resolved when we have peace happens with.
31:04
Gaza anyway, we removed the settlements.
31:06
We removed the settlements. But I want to, I want to, I want
31:08
to say something controversial here.
31:10
Look at what's happening. Look at what's happening in
31:13
Gaza. Did in the West Bank, did the
31:16
3,000,000 Palestinians in the West Bank mobilise into Israel
31:22
through a much more convenient terrain right after October 7th?
31:27
Forget Hezbollah, who are cowards, and I like to say this
31:30
on, on on this podcast. Forget them cowardly proxies.
31:34
Why didn't the West Bank Palestinians in droves cross the
31:38
border? We don't have better control of
31:42
them. There's no blockade on them.
31:44
There are check posts which they don't like the aggression of
31:48
when they need to go through their sort of like Swiss cheese,
31:50
like territory. Yes, that's humiliating and I'm
31:53
sure that keeps them angry towards us.
31:56
But why didn't they have the capacity to do that?
31:59
It's not that they didn't have a list of of inequities done
32:03
towards them, right? It's because they engage us
32:07
every single day. That's the thing in in large
32:10
numbers. So if we can create a situation
32:12
of engagement, even if it's not so positive for 25 or 50 years,
32:16
you'll see that level of violence will subside.
32:20
And then you can talk about peace.
32:21
Then you can talk about normalisation, then you can talk
32:23
about peace. And I believe that's going to
32:25
happen. I truly believe that.
32:26
I think there's going to be normalisation with Saudi Arabia.
32:29
I see the time left, by the way. I think it's going to lead a
32:31
pipe through through Saudi Arabia.
32:34
It comes, it starts in another very important country, but we
32:36
can leave that to another conversation even more important
32:39
than all the other countries involved.
32:41
But that pipe can go through Israel, can touch upon the West
32:45
Bank and Rev share with the Palestinians.
32:47
And you'll see what that when there's a cake to cut together
32:50
or a Baklawa to cut together, you'll see that suddenly we're
32:54
all Middle Eastern and we're getting along and this is and
32:56
this. Takes us full circle and we are
32:58
running out of time and we knew this would happen, but I am
33:01
going to keep to my word of keeping these podcasts around
33:04
half an hour. But what I find is that shared
33:07
humanity and we're coming back full circle to where we started
33:10
this conversation around what makes us human.
33:13
How do we build a shared humanity?
33:15
How do we within total disruption, be it war,
33:18
technology, economic upheaval, Do we have that foundation that
33:23
we are a we are a earth that is built on human humanity and wars
33:30
have unfortunately been something that has been
33:32
consistently happened and that is the nature of humanity.
33:34
But then we just have to share that amongst each other.
33:37
And as we build whatever technological future that will
33:40
be in 1030, fifty 100 years time that what is the role of human.
33:46
I think the conversation that you had, we had around Ark that
33:50
you're building that intrinsically into the
33:52
structures. The way for posterity is always
33:57
bringing those human stories back to the fore.
34:00
And also the way you talk about elevate Israel and the
34:03
relationships within the region comes that fundamental thing is
34:08
around humanity as well. Nim, we've got a minute before
34:12
we get cut off. It's we could have gone for
34:14
ages. Great conversation to chat.
34:17
Always a pleasure to see you if you had one last thing you
34:20
wanted to say. I think it's just all the we're
34:23
recording on a Friday, so I suppose the last thing is to say
34:26
Shabbat Shalom. Shabbat Shalom.