Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / James and the Giant Peach (1996) - Henry Selick | Houselights #155

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James and the Giant Peach (1996) - Henry Selick | Houselights #155 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the ned Palty. Welcome back to House Lights, our director discussion
0:24
show here on the Nerd Party Network. Today, we're continuing in the wing
0:28
of selc with stop motion work of director Henry Selik with his nineteen ninety six
0:33
film James and the Giant Peach. For your benefit, will be broadcasting twenty
0:38
eight percent of this podcast in live action, with the remaining balance in peach
0:42
Ovision. I'm Darren Grasshopper Moser, and I'm joined again by my friends Traveling
0:47
Peach Grower, Tristan Riddell and Sennebeede Taylor, John Mills. Gentlemen, let's
0:52
lasso some seagulls as we discuss Roade Dolls, James and the Giant Peach.
0:57
Let's jump into just the look of this film, guys, it is very
1:03
bizarre. Dall has always presented a unique adaptation challenge for anyone who is trying
1:11
to do any sort of tale that he that he wrote, and it's it's
1:15
one of those things where I considered Doll a great example of what oh geez,
1:23
I can't think of his name now, the guy who did Watchman or
1:26
whatever, where he's like he never wanted to see his movies adapt He never
1:29
wanted to see his comic works adapted into a movie because he's like I wrote,
1:34
yeah, Alan Moore, He's like, it was written for that medium,
1:37
it's not supposed to be in the other medium, but sell it gives
1:41
at the old College trial. This is my first time coming at it.
1:44
So it's it's interesting because this didn't spur me to go into the theater the
1:51
same way that Nightmare Before Christmas did. So it's like, I don't think
1:56
I'm alone in that based on its box office reception and everything. But like
2:00
you gents, you were you're younger than I am. Was this one where
2:02
you were like, oh, from the director of Nightmare Before Christmas, I
2:06
gotta go see this in the theater? I think like a family friend might
2:10
have had one of those giant, like super oversized VHS cassettes, like the
2:16
plasticky ones that's what this was in, and probably watch it at a friend's
2:21
house. I mean, I would have been kind of the right age at
2:23
ninety six, but I don't think it really interested me. It. Yeah,
2:30
it, that's probably That's probably where I'm just gonna go with that.
2:34
That's my story. What about you? Tristan it was, uh yeah,
2:38
it was kind of the same thing where we saw the trailers for it,
2:40
we saw the posters and everything like like that, and my family just thought
2:45
it looked a little too weird, like it's funny because you know, when
2:47
we saw a night or before Christmas, we were all about it, like
2:51
the whole family, Oh my god, this is so cool. But then
2:53
we saw James and the chint Peach giant Pete Man, I'm slurring here,
2:55
I'm not even drinking, and uh, it was. We just it.
3:00
It just kind of felt lackluster. It just felt kind of not weird in
3:05
a creepy cool way, but just weird, like in a okay kind of
3:07
way. And and then we rented it on VHS and we watched it and
3:14
I was probably like, yeah, ten at the time, eleven at the
3:16
time when it came out, and I haven't thought about it since I haven't
3:21
seen it, since this was not a part of my childhood. It was.
3:24
I watched it once and said, Okay, I'm never going to do
3:27
that again, you know, unless I you know, do a podcast,
3:30
you know, in my thirties somehow, in ninety six, that's amazing.
3:36
It was weird. Yeah, Seriously, more people should have been hanging out
3:38
with young Tristan because you saw the future coming. That's that's pretty amazing.
3:43
But yeah, I know, I think that pretty much sums it up in
3:49
terms of its supposed appeal. Is we always talk about the blank Check movie.
3:54
I see Nightmare before Christmas. It's a huge hit. Oh, I
3:58
thought you were talking about the movie blank Check, because I'm like, I
4:00
love that movie. He printed a check out of the like disc slot from
4:05
his Macintosh and I never forgave them. But that's neither here nor there.
4:10
So you know, computers were weird. Screenwriters had hard times, that's for
4:15
sure. That is that is we need to do. I know this is
4:18
this is a director of focused podcast, But I would love to do some
4:21
sort of wing where we talk about like old computer movies like the Nets on
4:27
Hackers, yea, hackers, the Nets. Swordfish would have to be in
4:30
there. For Swordfish, I just swore. I didn't even know why I
4:33
swore, just because it's Swordfish. You gotta swear. Yeah. Yeah,
4:39
But but I mean, like this seems like an odd play for something like
4:44
I get it, he's this is his thing. He wants to stretch.
4:47
Uh and and and flex and that sort of thing. But Nightmare Before Christmas
4:51
gives you the freedom to do what you want to do. From a certain
4:55
extent. You manage the production, you made it a big hit, a
5:00
Disney mainstay, and then you go into James and the Giant Peach, which
5:05
arguably I don't think that Doll has aged in terms of appeal the way that
5:14
some people think that he has. Tristan, do you agree with that,
5:17
because based on your facial expression, no, you know that that's it.
5:20
I gave a very ambiguous facial expression. It is. There's certain aspects of
5:26
Doll's work that I'm gonna call Mardi of r. D's work that doesn't age
5:32
well, specifically because of stereotypes or because you know, just like like of
5:38
all children's authors, and you know, you know, over the past century
5:42
and everything like that, there are certain things that aren't going to age well.
5:45
That's just the state of art, you know, And that's the case
5:48
when you know, society changes around things, everything like that. But you
5:53
know, I think you're absolutely right that there's there's some aspects that don't age
5:59
well. But at the time same time, we did just a couple of
6:01
weeks ago get four short films dropped by Wes Anderson based off of rd's short
6:11
stories, and so it's interesting that you say that when we just got a
6:15
new influx of media adapted on his works. Well, I haven't. I
6:20
haven't seen those yet, and they weren't even though I told you to.
6:25
Yeah, well I don't. You're not the boss of me. But like,
6:27
but those also aren't big theatrical releases with a lot of expectation from the
6:32
director of The Nightmare before Christmas. They are, let's be honest, releasing
6:39
those on the Netflix platform there's a lot less risk. But I'm glad you
6:42
mentioned Anderson because I see this movie and I say to myself, oh wow,
6:46
there are definitely Wes anderson isms in here. Like I can see sort
6:53
of the the visual sensibilities of Anderson reflected in so work in the live action
7:00
stuff. I don't know if anybody agrees with that or not. I mean,
7:04
that's what I saw well with the live action stuff. And he's come
7:09
out and said I think initially he wanted to incorporate like a live action James
7:18
in the animated pieces, but it was just it would have been way too
7:21
cost prohibitive to merge those worlds. So that's why they I think they do
7:27
a great job of it, like a little magic and you see his silhouette
7:30
change and now he's, you know, animated, James, I want to
7:33
I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that one.
7:34
What about you? Yeah, what did you guys think about the mixture?
7:38
Because originally Selik said that he wanted to do all of it stop motion,
7:44
but budget was an issue, and so he's like, Okay, well if
7:46
we do part of it in live action and part of it in stop motion,
7:48
we'll be able to save a lot of money. And they did,
7:50
and that's the direction that they went. And so the idea that it was
7:54
a cost saving maneuver kind of kicks it while it's down in my because as
8:00
I'm watching it, I'm just like, all of this, all of this
8:05
should have been stop motion. It really, in my personal opinion, the
8:11
live action stuff really bugged me because it was so fantastical, quirky and weird
8:16
that it would have the worlds were too similar in order to justify breaking up
8:26
live action and stop motion. In my opinion, I feel like the live
8:30
action world should have been way more normal. If you're gonna go with a
8:35
fantastical stop motion because to me, it was like that that journey into the
8:39
Peach doesn't have that much of what's the word for, like punch isn't as
8:46
punchy because the worlds are so similar. It's just like, you know,
8:52
it's it's not Dorothy walking into color. It's more of like, I get
8:58
what you're saying that there's not as much of a transformation between the worlds.
9:01
So I would agree with you that that is something where you see Selik as
9:07
a you know, an animation director not making that transition. He's carrying too
9:13
much of the animation sensibility into the live action stuff. I completely agree with
9:16
you because it caught me off guard how much of it was act. Like
9:24
you can tell in that opening shot of like the little seaside town, like
9:28
that's just a little miniature in the background, Like it's very obvious, and
9:33
it's I don't think they are trying to hide it. It is supposed to
9:37
be that surreal angled and perspective and things like that, but it I was
9:43
trying to think of a comparison. It's like in Nightmare, it's like if
9:48
the movie opened on lockshock and barrel as human children reading a story, and
9:54
then they disappeared down a rabbit hole. Like how jarring that would be to
9:58
now have characters that exist in both worlds. But yeah, so John,
10:05
when you were catching it for the first time, you said it caught you
10:09
off guard, like you weren't expecting it to open. Were you even expecting
10:13
it to open on live action? I thought it was a poster. It
10:16
doesn't show any of that. I thought it was going to be all stop
10:18
motion, and so when it opened live action, I was like, Oh,
10:22
okay, we'll be here for a minute, and then it kept going
10:24
and I was like, what, Well. But because it would have made
10:30
it would have made sense when his parents die Slash disappear for it to go
10:37
stop motion from that point forward, because in a sense, it indicated it
10:43
indicates that break in reality for him and his desire to escape because he's in
10:52
a terrible situation. And I think that that's one of those things where you
11:03
know, I just I just wish that they could have done it more stop
11:11
motion, and and I don't think it absolves some of the storytelling hiccups that
11:16
happened later, but it would have been at least more uh more visually sound.
11:24
I would have been slowly transitioned, like he wakes up one morning and
11:28
Sponge and Spiker are now animated stop motion, and as the day progresses,
11:33
more and more things become until this whole world has become that or I wanted.
11:39
I still would have gone I still would have yeah, but I mean
11:43
I would have gone sharp break like and then one day his parents disappeared,
11:46
and it's like and then boom everything stop motion because it indicates that at that
11:50
point forward reality, he was gone from reality, and then maybe bring him
11:56
back at the end into quote unquote reality, because then you have something where
12:01
it's like, Okay, the world is restored sort of thing. It would
12:05
have forgiven a lot of sins if it was all stop motion, because the
12:09
ants are so over the top cartoony, so cartoonishly villain that you don't have
12:16
any sympathy for James when we should because it's so over the top, and
12:22
James isn't like we're just like, oh, well, this is mustache twirling
12:28
villains, and so it's nowhere near rooted in real life, and so why
12:31
would I feel for this character like you feel emotional disconnect? Where if it
12:35
was all animated. You're thrown into that world and if you follow that world's
12:41
rules. It's kind of like when you watch a comedy and it's a romantic
12:45
comedy and the girl is with her boyfriend and the boyfriend is a complete douchebag,
12:50
and so there's no drama in it because you know that she's gonna end
12:54
up with the guy the protagonist anyway, and it doesn't matter because the guy's
12:58
a douchebag. It's one of those things. Well, and I want to
13:01
talk about the fantasy aspect of it is I think that also is very difficult.
13:09
So we just showed Jumanji, the first Jumanji to my kids for the
13:13
first time. And you want to talk about a movie that interjects fantasy because
13:18
it's the real world, but fantastical things happen, you know, a stampede
13:24
of animals come out, and a hunter and there's magic, but it's still
13:28
grounded in our world. This movie. And I'm not going to say to
13:33
its detriment, I'm just going to say it's a very difficult cell because it
13:39
is a fantasy book, like magical things happen, and you almost have to
13:46
have this narration like I cannot picture this movie without a narrator kind of stringing
13:52
along what's going on, because it's like what what is real? Is the
13:58
rhino reel? Are is the shark reel? Is? Everything real? Is
14:03
nothing real like it? It's really hard to piece together where the line is
14:07
because there is no line. It's it's And again I'm not saying that that's
14:13
a bad thing, that you can't have a fantasy movie, but where Jumanji
14:18
gets it right, I don't feel this movie ever clicks in that same regard.
14:24
I will go ahead and say that I think that the reason it doesn't
14:28
click is because Disney produces it. I think that this needed to be produced,
14:33
but because Disney in the nineties is a different Disney than it is now.
14:35
Disney now is soulless megacorp. Okay, whatever whatever the board wants,
14:39
the board gets. But back in the nineties, when you're dealing with where
14:43
the studio of the Lion King and the studio of Little Mermaid and Beauty and
14:48
the Beast and all that type of stuff, this is way too dark nightmare
14:54
before Christmas gets away with it. It gets away with it because there are
14:58
so many things that go right. I think that this movie divorced of certain
15:05
aspects of it. I just think a different studio had there been one powerful
15:13
enough to try to come at the animation angle. I'm firmly of the opinion
15:18
that another studio maybe today if if he's coming at it it it winds up
15:24
happening differently, or the very least, have Touchstone do it, Yeah,
15:30
like release it under Touchstone like they did with Nightmare. Yes, yes,
15:35
yes, put it on one of the sub brands. I completely agree with
15:37
you. I completely agree. Well it was Buena Vista. I don't think
15:41
this had the Disney banner on it. It opens with a Disney castle.
15:46
It does. Oh, that's true, and that's why that's why you your
15:50
friend had the gigantic VHS white covered. They are the only ones who had.
15:56
Though You're right, Darren, this says Disney all it. So Yes,
16:03
yes, parent death in the beginning. Check. Oh, I mean,
16:07
I'm gonna sound like an idiot here, and maybe I am. But
16:11
what the hell is the rhino? What am I supposed to take from the
16:14
rhino? I always felt it was a representation of the trauma of his parents
16:19
dying. Like it's obviously not a literal rhino. Now, some people have
16:25
inferred that maybe the ants ran his parents over because there is a rhino on
16:30
the hood ornament of their car. I don't know. I don't know what,
16:36
but it's so very representational. I mean, I think that there's the
16:40
implication that they had something to do with it, but you know, also,
16:44
you know, okay, great, they're murderers. But like, there's
16:48
there's just so many things where I think Tristan you're speaking to it's not clear.
16:56
And when you're dealing with a children's fable, you can be we but
17:00
it has to be clear what you're saying with each element. It has to
17:04
see I have to be able to look at it and say that represents that,
17:07
that represents that, that represents that, because there is that expectation of
17:11
clarity when you're dealing with the fable. Otherwise the meaning of the fable becomes
17:18
jumbled and you're not quite sure what it's saying. And I think that's one
17:22
of the flaws of the movie is I'm not quite sure what Selic is saying,
17:25
except I like James and the Giant Peach and I wanted to do this
17:26
movie, and it's it's unfortunate because there are so many things where I think,
17:34
like, I, you know, I go there and I read that
17:37
Elvis Selik wanted Elvis Costello to do the music, and I think to myself,
17:42
Oh, that's an interesting score. That's super interesting to me. And
17:47
then Disney's division is like, no, that's that's too quirky. Bring in
17:51
Randy Newman, and I'm like, ah, great, And this is a
17:55
hair after toy story, so like I got major toy story vibe. It
18:00
was from the soundtrack, excluding the nonsensical song that describes the movie at the
18:06
credits. I was like, Oh, my gosh, it's the Lady yea.
18:14
Yeah, left foot, right foot, left right, right foot.
18:18
Yeah. Like, while watching this movie, I did not have to guess
18:22
who did the score. Yeah. What. I can't believe that you've got
18:27
a peach in James. You've got a peach in James. He was given
18:36
red caterpillar, no green caterpillar. Take it well, whatever, you know,
18:41
And I mean, it's just and I don't want to rag on it
18:47
too much because it's like it's very obvious that there's so much craft in this.
18:52
When it goes to the animated stuff, well, let's let's jump there.
18:57
Let's let's ignore the book ends for the moment. That's like forty percent
19:03
of the movie, but we're gonna ignore that. And yeah, okay,
19:07
so once we're in the animated world, I think, I mean, it's
19:11
got really strong character design. All the characters, what do they say?
19:15
Like silhouette? Like if they was just a silhouette of all these characters,
19:18
you could instantly tell them apart. They all have unique personalities. They feel
19:25
like fleshed out characters even though we've only known them. We've known the Spider
19:29
for ten percent more of the movie. But I love her little spool that
19:33
pops out at the top of her abdomen rather than like probably where it should
19:37
come from. But it's just a fun, you know, comical way.
19:41
I always forget the glow Worm is a character because she's so minor. But
19:48
what did you guys think of the just the just the characters, the bug?
19:52
So they are really the main characters of this movie. Well, I
19:55
was as I was watching him, you know, you keep playing that game
20:00
of who is that? I know that voice and it's funny because like as
20:07
the Spider was talking, I was like, is that Susan Sarandon? Like
20:12
you are correct, and I was like whoa. And then and then it
20:17
was why why is that Susan Surrand. There was a couple of times when
20:23
like David Thulis, like you know, you know exactly why they chose David
20:27
Thulis, and and Jane Leaves absolutely like you totally get why they why they
20:36
cast those people and why they got that kind of voice. But then you
20:37
have Susan Sarandon. You're just kind of like, I mean, it's not
20:41
like she did a bad job. It was just well, I mean,
20:45
it could have been anybody who could do that accent, you know, like
20:48
she did a passable accent. But it's also like seeing Stephen Colp as James's
20:52
father, Like as you're watching, you're like, why the hell is that
20:56
Stephen Colp? Like they couldn't have got a brit to do that role.
21:00
It's so weird. Like not that again, it doesn't matter, it's just
21:06
an odd choice. But I really I had to look up Centipede because I
21:11
did not hear Richard Dreyfus whatsoever. No, I didn't either, And so
21:17
hats off to Dreyfus because usually you can tell Richard Dreyfus so baffo job to
21:22
him, I'll totally overlook the fact that spiders are the devil's invention and a
21:29
perversion of nature and should all be wiped out with flamethrowers, hammers and shotguns.
21:34
But it's one of those things where I think the voice talent is solid,
21:45
but there's no The problem for me is that there's no character in support
21:53
of James that captures my heart. Let's roll it back to like a little
22:00
girl that goes along with him on his fantastical Joe. I'm not even talking
22:03
about that. I'm talking about when I go back and I watch Nightmare before
22:10
Christmas. I love the Mayor. The Mayor makes me giggle. I love
22:14
mister Ogie Boogie, I love Sally. Because these characters, I'm like,
22:18
oh, I love this character. This is a great character. None of
22:22
the characterizations play as well for me in this and so it becomes an exercise
22:30
in telling a story as opposed to creating an emotional connection. Can I fault
22:36
the voice talent for that? In a sense? Yes, because to Tristan's
22:40
point, Susan Sarandon's fine, but fine doesn't cut it. I should love
22:47
if you're going to come at me with an animated Spider, you will have
22:52
a success if an arachnophobe like me winds up liking the Spider character. And
22:57
in this I was like, Eh, it's fine. And in terms,
23:03
well, they cut a character from the book so as not to overload,
23:07
I think they should have cut another. And I think that they should have
23:10
dedicated some time to building a real emotional relationship between Miss Spider and James,
23:18
because they were obviously going for that. Cut another character with the more right
23:23
the bugs give more screen time. And as trite as this is, roll
23:30
your eyes, I want you know what to quote Rick Sanchez, Your booze
23:34
mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer. Make the mom and the
23:38
dad voices in there, because they already use Miriam Marghalese, who plays Aunt
23:45
Sponge as Missus Glowworm, just commit to that. Bring in the parents in
23:49
there too, and have him be connected to those characters so that you hear
23:56
those voices and it immediately builds that that sense of that's the Peter Pan routine
24:02
and that totally works. Yeah, I'm kind of weird. It's kind of
24:07
weird how defensive you got preemptively, and I've just used people that we weren't
24:11
going to be on board with that, because I think not, not you
24:14
guys, not you guys. I've talked about all the people that yes,
24:21
that's what, make sure to give a star rating over at iTunes or wherever
24:23
you listen to this podcast. Well, and as you talk about reducing you
24:29
know, the bugs, or cutting another one, and I'm trying to think
24:32
who to cut, because why not let's talk about it. Maybe the only
24:38
one I can think of is Miss Ladybug because, uh, Senipede, you
24:42
got to have him. He has a lot that he does and he's an
24:47
semi antagonistic force. You got to have mister Grasshopper because like Centipede and Grasshopper
24:52
are like two sides of the coin as they have a really interesting dynamic.
24:56
The earthworm is literally a plot point with the seagulls. I can't see getting
25:00
rid of that. I always forget that Miss glow Worm is there, so
25:04
she's like negligible at this point. Miss Spider obviously is the lead bug,
25:11
so Miss Ladybugs kind of the last one. Like I don't think it really
25:18
needs Ladybug or glow Worm. They can go just right out. I mean,
25:21
Glowworm is literally there just so they have light like she's literally a function
25:25
rather than a character, right, And you can and you can write around
25:27
that and give miss Spider more time to connect with him, or even mister
25:33
Grasshopper more time with him. You know, I would have liked Grasshopper to
25:37
be a little bit more time with James, Like if they had had the
25:41
Spider have the voice of the mom and the Grasshopper the voice of the dad.
25:45
I think, Boom, you're cooking with gas absolutely, absolutely, which
25:51
is a dangerous combination when a Nazi shark machine thing is firing missiles at you.
25:56
Wait, why why is it a Nazi shark? Did I miss?
26:00
It was in the original draft? Oh, in the original draft. That's
26:03
one of the things that Disney gave a note on where they're like, yeah,
26:07
no, I don't like that idea. I think that's a good note
26:08
from Disney. The fascist I'm not I'm not saying it's a bad note.
26:15
I'm just saying, you know, it was Dennis Potter when he when he
26:19
hired when they hired him to write a draft the sharks were Nazis and Disney
26:26
was like, ah, no, nuts about it. I love that.
26:29
Richard Dreyfus. This the one who almost got eaten by the shark. I
26:32
mean that's so apropos. Yes, I get it now, yeah, anyone
26:38
again, there's some no, I got it, there's some. There's some
26:42
great clever parts. Like I love the fact that the peach rolls over a
26:48
fence and it gives like a little thing that they can stand on. That's
26:52
like such character because otherwise it's just a peach in the sky and they're all
26:57
jammed on the top of it. Like, I love that part of it.
27:00
I love you know again, it's it feels like a child's story.
27:07
James is like, oh, no, I have an idea, but no
27:11
one will listen. And then they're like, no, James, tell us
27:14
your idea. And I mean, that feels like a kid's book. That
27:18
feels like a kid's imagination. But yeah, and it was. Guy.
27:26
It's just so interesting the vibes it gives because they're definitely movies out that came
27:32
out after again not the not the same concepts, but you know, like
27:37
I was talking about Jumanji with the fantasy or you know, it just has
27:42
that. It's just so interesting bringing this to life. I and I was
27:49
looking back at at at Selex's career, and I'm like, you have to
27:56
also remember he's putting out a movie every three years because they take that long
28:00
to make. And as you were saying, John like he oh he went
28:03
to this, he did this after Nightmare, and he did. But it
28:07
wasn't like, oh, hey, I just wrapped and let's just pop on
28:11
over. It's like, you know, your your neck deep in production for
28:15
for years and years and years to turn this around, and yeah, it
28:22
it. I don't know. I don't know how you market a film.
28:26
You know what it feels like this movie feels like the look of the kids
28:34
section in Barnes and Noble. I don't know why. But does that does
28:40
that make sense? I was gonna say, this movie feels I get what
28:45
you're saying about imagination, but this feels like the imagination my kid gets when
28:51
she has a slight fever where it's like it starts going It's gonna get me,
28:57
Rhino's coming for me. I mean I think that there's I don't know.
29:06
I mean, honestly, I struggle with the feel of this film because
29:11
it just struggles to connect. There's there's an emotional core that's missing and I
29:19
don't know why this has all of the elements that should be there, but
29:27
I think maybe you're right that it does feel like a kid's imagination sort of
29:32
wandering everywhere, because when a kid starts telling a story, they're just sort
29:40
of doing a stream of consciousness brain dump. And then there was a shock
29:45
and it shot harpoons at them, and then the spider hit the harpoons with
29:48
the hammer and almost, yeah, there's no, there's no. It's not
29:55
a story logic sort of thing. It's not a a a to beat this
30:00
to d t E progression of things. It's oh, yeah, suddenly there's
30:03
a new thing. That's not a bad thing. No, I'm not poo
30:08
pooing the idea. I'm saying it's hit and miss, and it can be
30:15
fun to sit around and so you don't hate the experience, but at the
30:18
same time you're not like, Wow, that was a moving story, kiddo.
30:21
Yeah, you're right. I think it also had a disadvantage, and
30:26
this is just an assumption. It has a disadvantage because it is a stop
30:30
motion animated movie where you it is very hard to change and to fix.
30:37
It makes me think back to the stories we hear from toy story when they're
30:41
they're starting to generate it and they're like, what is a jerk? Nobody
30:45
likes this character? We have to start over in this story, and I
30:51
feel like it James and the time Peach gets there, they finished the movie
30:57
and it's a it's a plot. But I think if they had the ability
31:03
and budget and time to go back through and be like, Okay, what
31:06
is we never found the heart of this movie? We never found that.
31:11
How do we go back and fix that? Because they couldn't because of time
31:15
or budget or reasons they had to go. It had to come out.
31:19
So again that's a very assumption driven. But I'm a movie podcaster, so
31:26
apparently I know what I'm talking about, so I can honestly say it.
31:30
It could illustrate in all honesty, why the shift to CG animation proved so
31:37
seismic is you still have to plan out, You still have a lot of
31:42
things to take into consideration. It still costs an arm and a leg,
31:45
especially in the nineties, but you have the ability to make a change a
31:52
lot easier than filming. Hey we got fourteen seconds of film this month?
31:57
Yeah, right, take you can see things coming together and you can say,
32:05
oh, okay, we can soften that, right, as opposed to,
32:08
well, we already animated this and the clay figure no longer holds its
32:14
shape, so we're kind of locked in. Let's put in a few more
32:16
scenes with the grasshopper and let's add add this or that or whatever and find
32:22
that Yeah, let's add another two scenes with the grasshopper. Well that will
32:25
take eighteen months. Yeah, So what's fascinating, And I might have mentioned
32:30
this before in the podcast and I can't remember, is what you guys are
32:35
talking about between you know what was revolutionary with CGI. There's a really,
32:42
really great behind the scenes series. It's a mini series on Disney Plus about
32:46
the making of Frozen two. You know, anybody who's had kids or anything
32:52
like that know how the mega hit that is and was Frozen, and so
32:55
they had they tried to reproduce that success. Now, Frozen two was a
32:59
huge commercial success, but creatively there was a lot wrong with it. If
33:04
you watched that mini series, it is amazing and also kind of scary how
33:10
many times they rewrote the film up until release. Yes, it is insane.
33:17
That's a whole rabbit hole to go down, because while I was watching
33:21
that for the first time. I remember looking at my wife and saying,
33:22
it feels like they really didn't know where they were going at the start of
33:25
this. And then we watched that making of and I was like, I
33:28
told you, I told you they didn't know where they were going. With
33:30
everything you said, I was nuts. I told you that was the case.
33:35
Anna and Elsa Something Something something Dollar signs. You know, they might
33:38
as well turned into robots by the new Toys. Yeah, yes, yeah,
33:45
what if they wear the same clothes, No, they must wear new
33:47
clothes. Like every scene, every scene has a new outfit there we can
33:52
market the new doll and my kids have all of them. But at the
33:59
same time, that is even a microcosm sort of thing of the difference between
34:05
Nightmare Before Christmas and James and the Giant Peach in the nineties when Disney didn't
34:09
know what they were dealing with and they just said, Okay, Tim Burton,
34:13
you've given your blessing to this hole and make something and we'll sell us
34:16
to let us know what's done. And then Henry sell It comes up and
34:21
he's like, okay, James and the Giant Peach, O what Elvis Costello
34:24
no, I want this, No, I want this. That draft no,
34:29
no good. We're going to bring in two people. They brought in
34:30
two people after the original screenwriter passed. That's not a good sign. But
34:36
they brought in two people, and they were like, all right, which
34:37
version do we like better? All right, that one wins. It's like,
34:39
oh, that's a terrible way to do that. But this I said
34:46
this earlier basically, but like Disney's meddling, I think has a lot to
34:50
do with what goes wrong with this movie. Yeah, And like we said
34:53
from the very beginning, if if they had not saying it would make it
34:59
one hundred times better. But if they had had the budget in time to
35:01
fully animate it, like yeah, probably would have cost a couple more million
35:07
to make. This had a thirty eight million dollar budget. It made about
35:10
thirty seven million, not counting marketing. And and and I don't know if
35:15
it made some back in the aftermarket VHS seals. I remember the VHS,
35:22
so it definitely existed. But yeah, it's I now it'll be interesting.
35:28
And and we didn't have time to finish reading the story. So my kids
35:32
haven't watched this one yet, but we're currently reading the book with them right
35:37
now, and our plan is to show them the movie after they've read it
35:40
first. So I'll give you guys a one minute synopsis after that happens in
35:45
a future episode of How They because they're you know, they're way more of
35:50
the target audience than any of us are right now. So yeah, you
35:55
know it's I'm I mean a budget of thirty eight million, that's that's not
36:05
a small amount of money. And ninety six for sure, forget just that.
36:10
I mean Terminator two had broached the whole thing one hundred and two million,
36:14
and you know for a ninety one release, that's the big thing.
36:16
James Cameron made movies that cost too much money and then made unimaginable sums of
36:23
money to make up for it. But thirty eight million on an animated adaptation
36:30
of I mean, there are so many We've talked about this with other things.
36:36
There are so many signs early in the process that this is not going
36:40
to make the money you think it is. It will always stun me that
36:45
the bean counter isn't sitting there saying, I don't know. First two drafts
36:50
didn't roll us over. Maybe we passed on this one. We say okay,
36:54
let's not do this, Like there's almost a lesson in obstinates when something
37:00
like this gets pushed through. Obviously, once they start animating, they're locked
37:06
in, right, But I think early on in the process there's a there
37:09
should have been a cooler head in the room to say, you know what,
37:14
let's press pause on this. Let's really try to reimagine this from the
37:19
ground up and see what's going on. I mean, maybe I'm or here's
37:22
two million, make a one minute test reel of something like is it blowing
37:30
us away? And we're showing it to kids and they're eating it up?
37:31
Okay, let's go and we've you know, and if not, we've spent
37:36
two million instead of thirty eight. Like now you got to build stuff,
37:38
but build like the main bugs and James or something. Now it's been a
37:46
long I don't think I've ever read the book, so I'm wondering if that
37:49
might also be a piece of the puzzle, in the fact that it's an
37:52
adaptation, so you also have a bit of a having to stick to the
37:58
story vibe versus if this was you know, the writers or even Selek's original
38:06
creation, and they can do whatever they want, like it's gonna be a
38:09
knockout story for animation from the get go instead of this adaptation fantasy slash real
38:19
world funhouse. Yeah, I yeah, make a short film. Yeah,
38:30
it's or three because apparently that's the way what you do is you make three
38:35
short films. Yeah. Sure, I mean I think that. I don't
38:39
know, man, I mean it's like I feel bad in a sense because
38:44
the the kid who plays James in this, I think he does pretty good
38:52
job. Does Yeah. Let's yeah, well, let's talk about the as
38:59
around, or let's talk about the human cast for a little bit. We
39:02
talked about all the voice actors and the bugs. I think, like you
39:07
guys said with Sponge and Spiker, I mean their names are Sponge and Spiker,
39:10
guys, like they are cartoon characters. But it looks like it like
39:16
it looks like every tall, skinny, bony ant and short plump ant combo
39:22
that we got in that era, Like that was I was not surprised at
39:28
all by that. That's just like it was so applicable. M Yeah.
39:35
Yeah. I think that's the thing is that like they're so they're so cartoony
39:40
that it's you know, when I'm seeing them as the live action actress.
39:44
When I'm seeing the ants, it's it's hard for me to disconnect and not
39:52
think, oh, they should have they should have been animated, and so
39:54
the entire time, I mean, they give an animated performance, like they
39:57
basically are animated characters. Essentially, they're just not animated, and I think
40:04
their performances would have been great in stop motion. And also, I have
40:10
no idea why Pete Polselwait was there, I mean, except to like deliver
40:20
and then come back with narration. I mean, he looked like, you
40:23
know, like a mime who gave up and got addicted to meth and then
40:28
he goes to this this little boy on green things. You know, it's
40:35
just it's a drug trip. Yeah, just like Alice in Wonderland. It's
40:38
a drug trip. If I hated that movie too, well, which one
40:44
the old animated one or Tim Burton both both. I've never seen the animated
40:50
one. I hated tim Burton's version. It's terrible. Yeah, tim Burton
40:54
just continued the tradition of terrible fair enough. Well, yeah, you know,
41:01
it's I don't know, I mean, the human cast. I don't
41:07
know that I have anything to add to that. I think that. I
41:13
think that Paul Terry does a fine job as James, as good as it
41:19
needs to be. But I feel bad for him in a sense because it's
41:30
just not a showcase type of thing, like this is his big break,
41:36
this is his big splash onto the scene, and the film is not something
41:40
that's going to propel anybody any further in their career. I kind of feel
41:45
with James, it's like he's reading all his lines. Is that like,
41:52
not that he doesn't have emotion in the reading, but I didn't get any
41:59
set of difference from when he was either on screen or he was in the
42:04
voice booth doing the animated James like it. I'll fault Selek for that,
42:08
though, because that is that is sell job Selik is getting. I think
42:15
it's just very obvious that the shortcoming is that Seleck is comfortable doing the stop
42:20
motion and giving direction for voiceover, He's not comfortable with how much live action
42:27
is going on here. And I think that's just the core dysfunction of the
42:30
movie. I think that's that's just it right there. No, I think
42:37
I think so every time that Tristan's been nodding at me, I know he's
42:40
been agreeing with everything I'm saying. So let's as we asdra wrap this up.
42:47
So final final thoughts Tristan on James and the Giant Peach. Now,
42:52
one question I did want to ask you as or actually to both of you.
42:58
Did you watch this with your children or just by yourselves? Oh?
43:04
I watched it by myself, and I wish I would have watched it with
43:07
my kid. Although I don't know if she would have dug this. I
43:13
think I don't think she would have liked the live action parts. I know
43:15
that that's where it's echoing everything that we've been saying for the past forty five
43:19
minutes. But yeah, I think I think she. I mean, she
43:24
doesn't like when parents die. Well that happens. So but then again,
43:30
like who knows, you know, because like did the cloud rhinoceros do it?
43:34
I don't know. But no, I watched this by myself, and
43:40
I lamented almost every minute of it. I like I start, I started
43:45
it with with my wife, and every once in a while we just kind
43:47
of look at each other and just go, oh, no, really they
43:52
made a party. Oh we're back. Oh now this is happening, and
43:54
now we're breathing underwater, and so she left after about twenty minutes and went
44:00
off and did something else productive, and I sat there and just let it
44:05
happen to me. Well, what about you, John, did your little
44:10
one join you in this or did you spare her from that torment? Not
44:15
a chance she would pay attention. My littlest would not have tolerated this.
44:22
She'd have just wondered what the hell was going on and just not cared.
44:27
And so it's disappointing because I, oh, she wasn't in the room.
44:30
How can you know? Because I know my kid, and I know that
44:36
since this this is a movie where, unfortunately its target audience is my kid,
44:42
my youngest kid, and I can tell you for a fact that she
44:45
just would not have tolerated it. So it misses with the adult audience.
44:52
It misses with the kid's audience. Even though its reception would have indicated that
45:00
some people really thought it worked. I mean, uh, Janet Maslin,
45:06
legendary film critic for the New York Times, thought it was great. Right,
45:10
Okay, that's fine, and it's it's a great once rotten tomato doesn't
45:16
spread like you're not grabbing my friends to go see it again. Rotten Tomatoes,
45:22
which tells us all what we should be thinking of movies. Those wasn't
45:25
around at ninety six. Yeah, but it's an aggregator of things, you
45:30
know, out of one hundred. So like that's that's like you know,
45:35
Taikawa TD, Marvel movie territory right there. So it's like, I don't
45:38
know, am I not seeing something? I don't know. It's just there's
45:45
just whiffs. It's just misses on all all counts. So how many gulps
45:52
of peach guts? Yeah? Would you guys give this movie? I mean
45:55
it's gonna spoil. Might as well eat it, John, Yeah, I
46:00
have many gulps of peach guts. I feel bad for doing this. I
46:06
do because there is artistry, there is effort, there is obvious craft in
46:13
what's going on here. I'll never watch this again. And I didn't particularly
46:16
enjoy it. One star. Oh man, I was going to give it
46:22
a two, and I feel like that I was going too high, and
46:27
so I think you gave me license to give it a one point five.
46:29
I'm not going to give it a one because, man, the last thing
46:32
I gave a one on here because I gave I gave you give a one
46:37
point five to you, bastard, and then I gave a one two.
46:45
Mad Max is not Mad Max is not Mad Max level bad Or fourteen ninety
46:50
two. I mean maybe, No, I'm giving it a one point five.
46:53
That's fine, you know what you talked me into it. I'll give
46:55
it a one point five. All right, one point five. You're right.
46:59
I did not disliked this as much as I disliked Mad Max, because
47:02
I think that's the that I think that's kind of like the yardstick for us
47:06
as Mad Max extra half star for all of the craft involved. There.
47:09
There you go. No, this this was a painful movie to watch.
47:13
I'm sorry. I just I don't feel bad saying that this was a painful
47:19
movie to watch. I mean it was an hour and nineteen minutes and that's
47:22
including the credits. And when I clicked on it, I was about this
47:27
song. I was like, oh sweet, this is this is gonna be
47:30
a short movie. It felt like it was two hours and twenty minutes.
47:34
It did, Oh it did? It felt like a two hour movie?
47:37
Yes, Oh my god. I mean it's just it was. It was
47:40
exhausting, and I just I just wanted it to be over and it kept
47:45
going, and it was it was a time suck. It was it was
47:50
like the tartest of time wasting. It's bigger on the inside. I almost
47:55
want to do an ab experiment with my kids and like, have one of
48:00
them just watch the animated part and the other watched the entire movie and see,
48:06
like which enjoyed it better? If it's if you literally just started with
48:09
when he's climbing through the peach and just pretend there's no first twenty minutes.
48:15
So aren't you then in a Sophie's Choice sort of way, deciding which child
48:19
you love more. She's staring out there evoking Sophie's Choice. James and the
48:24
Giant Peach discussion. John, I've never seen the movie. It was just
48:29
an easy get Sorry, Well I'm yeah, I'm going to stay in a
48:35
in a rounded number, I'll give it a two and again mostly that is
48:38
for it's a stop motion animation, and the stop motion animation parts look amazing.
48:45
It has a style, it commits to it. It doesn't you know,
48:50
like all of the characters are really unique and their movements. I love
48:55
the animated parts and Giant, don't all eyed. James is a little creepy,
49:02
not gonna lie, but it works. I think it works as a
49:06
I think they needed to cartoonify him. If it had been like otherwise,
49:10
it would have looked like you took a clamation polar Express kid and stuck him
49:17
in the middle of the movie, and we would have all been creeped out.
49:21
So I think you had to, like, you know, just just
49:23
find that middle ground of of that. But yeah, I love those aspects,
49:30
and I like the overall story a kid wanting to go to New York,
49:36
the City of dreams like and I'm glad the narration was there. Tell
49:38
me that that that was what I was supposed to be thinking, because without
49:43
narration, this movie would not have a leg to stand on or a piece
49:46
to float in. So yeah, we gave it a one point five,
49:51
a one point five, and a two. Yeah, So that's our ratings
49:58
here on House Slides. But next week, as we continue in the House
50:02
of Harry Selick with Claymation, we are going to two thousand and nine little
50:07
bit of a jump to his epic movie Coraline, Join the Revolution, Join
50:15
the Ned Party,