Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Why AI Could Make Markets More Volatile and Bridgetown’s $500k Port Transformation
Transcript
- Nick Chubb: what gets announced publicly in the press and on social media and talked about on conference stages and all that sort of stuff, all data that you can mine very, very easily, and then what gets talked about between technology buyers who speak to each other in the industry, there's a very, very wide gap. between the marketing copy and the reality of customer feedback. Raal: Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of Undocked. Hello Nick Chubb. Nick Chubb: Raoul Harris, how you doing? Raal: So how I'm doing great. How how are you enjoying this summer? it's it's a scorcher here in the UK. Have you been getting getting a tan? Nick Chubb: It is I I have quite enjoyed the last few days because we've had a bit of a break in the heat But I think it's coming office is air-conditioned that this booth sort of is not So sitting in this booth to record gets a bit warm, so I'm glad we're recording today and not tomorrow Raal: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so what have you what have you been seeing? What's going on with you in the in the world of maritime? Nick Chubb: I've been reading up on how to grow a podcast because it's very important that we grow to satisfy our egos. And so, one of the things that I've read you need to have is you need to have regular features. Raal: Mm. Nick Chubb: So, I don't know whether you noticed it, but the stuff we did on MF shipping was quite popular. Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: We looked at their digital strategy in some detail and they've been quite public about what they've done. And I think they were quite pleased it was covered and Raal: Hm. Nick Chubb: it made for very, I found it a very interesting discussion. And so I'm thinking, could we build a feature where we do a sort of tear down of a case study of a particularly interesting transformation that perhaps has flown, here we go for a feature name, under the radar. What do you think? Raal: I like it. I'm in. No, that was a good story. For those that haven't watched it, covered on a a previous one. There've been a lot of conversation about and it came up last week on the show with Steve Jones in the Seafarers Happiness Index. I think that's let's sort of sort them. Ill-thought-out technology rollouts damaging crew morale, potentially leading to more work and ultimately leading to people not getting the value from their investment in the technology that they deploy. So the the case study in that. particular case, you're right, MF shipping did a really good job about it and they did a they they involved their user base and stuff. So this this new under the radar feature, is it is it all b all technology transformation or are you opening it up to Nick Chubb: I don't know, this is only number two, so we'll see how it goes. But I've found, it could be, it could be a very short series, but I've found another interesting case study. So if you like it, yeah, let us know. Raal: It could be a series of one. Write in, comment. Comment if you like it. Nick Chubb: First, I've got to make you guess who Raal: Huh. Nick Chubb: the case study's about, right? So this is a single port, it Raal: Right. Nick Chubb: is state-owned, and it takes in 90 % of national imports for a country. any idea where in the world it could be. Raal: AI is reshaping Maritime, but a model is only as good as the data and systems behind it. Too many AI initiatives stall because fleet data is fragmented and disconnected from day-to-day operations. Insight and SmartSea powered by SITA connect data, applications and onboard operations through one fleet architecture, so operators can identify opportunities, prove value, and scale what works rather than running another isolated pilot. The outcome isn't We tried AI, it's AI embedded in daily operations, driving measurable efficiency, resilience and business results. Turn AI ambition into measurable outcomes with insight and SmartSea follow the link in the episode description to To learn more. Ooh, ninety percent, did you say? Nick Chubb: for the whole country, 90%, yeah. Raal: Jeez. I'm not very good at ports to be honest. and it's state owned. Nick Chubb: state-owned and they have a public ambition to be the most innovative green maritime hub in the world by 2030. Raal: I feel like I know who this is and I can't remember who it is. No, go on. Nick Chubb: They take 1,100 vessel calls in a year and they take everything from containers to dry and liquid bulk, break bulk, cars and cruise ships. Big cruise port. Raal: Is it Vancouver? Nick Chubb: It's not. You're in the right continent. It is in the Americas. Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: You gotta go somewhere a bit warmer. Raal: Is it Houston? Nick Chubb: No, much nicer than Houston. Barbados. Bridgetown in Barbados. Yeah. Raal: Because that I was gonna say, I don't forgetting you said cruise I don't know. is it? Wow. Nick Chubb: And so really the whole reason for doing this feature is that I'm just hoping, I'm angling for an invite to go and tour the port. you know, if you're listening. Raal: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nick Chubb: Okay, so this is really, really interesting case study of a good technology transformation in a port. So they do 1,100 vessel calls a year. It's just over a million tons of cargo imported annually. And it is 90 % of the country's import. So it's a critical national infrastructure for Barbados. But they're small and kind of too small to afford to bring in, you know, a kind of top tier port community system provider. to come and build a port community system for them. So in the early 2020s, they had a bit of a problem with paper documents in the port. I'll do another little guess for you. How many paper documents do you think were required to get a ship and cargo through the port of Bridgetown? Physical paper documents before 2025. 52. 52 individual documents were required to move cargo through the port. that's getting the ship in first of all, and all the documents that come in getting the ship in, then getting the specific cargo cleared through customs and out the other side of the gate out. So they knew they had a problem. They knew they had to build something to fix it. And bear in mind, this is a state owned enterprise. They decided we're too small to... get one of the kind of big port community system providers in. So we're going to build something ourselves. And what they managed to do was build a cloud-based port community system for a slightly mind-blowing figure of $500,000. Now bear in mind Raal: Wow. Nick Chubb: The Bilbao Port Authority awarded a design contract just for the design of a port community system at about the same time. They awarded a contract for that that was 11 and a half million euros. So just the design, not the implementation. And Raal: Just to the just to design it. So how the hell are they they Nick Chubb: they built the whole thing in-house for half a million dollars. Raal: I don't I unlike you, I don't get to go to the Caribbean very often. Nick Chubb: you Raal: But I don't it doesn't strike me as being sort of particularly able to locally source everything that it would need to build that. So how the hell have they managed to do that? Nick Chubb: That is a very good question. They actually have a digital innovation department. and they have an innovation development team. There's a chap called Rommel Edwards who manages the digital innovation and development team. He's been there for 25 years and started as a software engineer. 25 years ago, wrote the first Windows application and the first tablet application that Port ever used. then has over the decades he's been there, he's either designed or architected 40 different digital initiatives. So the guy's properly embedded in the Port infrastructure. Raal: And what what was his name? Rommel, like the tank Nick Chubb: Rommel Edwards. Yeah. Raal: commander. Showing my age. I think shout out Nick Chubb: Yes, yeah. Raal: to Rommel, because there's always these guys, these that I've I've known a few in firms that I've worked at over the years, and there'll be someone who's just like this kind of Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: roll their sleeves up kind of dude, you know, who kind of but that's kind of next level, isn't it? Like, no, no, don't worry, I can do it. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, I'll build a single window for our country. Yeah, no problem. Let me tell you Raal: Yeah, pretty amazing. Nick Chubb: a bit about a bit about what it what it does. So first off, they went from 52 paper documents down down to none. They've managed to facilitate in the port. The port used to take a lot of cash or physical payments. They now take more than 80 percent of all financial transactions at the port now are done. and they took their first online payment after the system went live. It was originally due to go live in 2023, but the timeline slipped. So it actually ended up going live in 2025. And Rommel stated in a presentation, I managed to get a copy of that. the kind of core lessons for how to achieve something like this. They were all fairly, fairly dull in a good way. One is bringing neutral experts on areas where you don't have kind of core expertise. So they brought in experts on legal, technical and cyber questions rather than trying to do everything in house. So they did use lean on consultants. They're quite specific in terms of the advice of not reinventing the wheel. So when it came to the actual design of the system, they just went out to look at what worked elsewhere in the world for similar sized ports and near enough took that design and kind of built on top of it. to treat the port community system as something that's just going to do everything. Pick some really important key use cases like the 52 paper documents and try and get those sorted first. And then make sure you're constantly engaging all of the stakeholders around the port during the entire process, not just sort of at the end once it's built. So yeah, I just thought it was a really nice little case study on a good digital transformation that has flown under the radar. Raal: Maybe we should get Rommel on. See Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: let's get him on. Let's track him down and see how he went went about doing it. It's that's a pretty I'm I'm just amazed at that figure, that five hundred thousand figure. I mean I just can't Nick Chubb: It was part, the reason the figures public is it was part, I'm not quite sure why, but it was part of finance by the EU. There is an EU development fund and the Caribbean Development Bank also supported it. Anyway, that's what I've spent my time doing. I've been researching Barbados Port Inc. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few more in the can, but we'll save them for future weeks. Raal: your new feature. Well yeah, I I think if if if under the radar is going to be successful, we are gonna need, ladies and gentlemen, for you to to send us, send us your stories, send us what you're doing Nick Chubb: Yes. Raal: and and talk to us about how you're approaching it, particularly those ones from that that have that real sort of human dimension, if you've done that bit well, 'cause we've identified that as being a a a bit of an issue. I I've been, like you said, slow week. but there are a few stories that caught my attention, one one of which not quite from this week, that I think is well well worthy of discussing. Now we talked a lot about about data and the number of you know the the number of ways in which data is converging and around in particular trying to get a a picture of you know vessel performance kind of thing. And One of the issues that we've that has come up in terms of pressure on seafarers, and I think it came up last week as well, around shore leave. One of the problems with shore leave, the number of inspections of people who want to come on and audit the the vessel and the crew and everything, and Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: check all the paperwork and the the seaworthiness of the vessel that you've got, you know, you've got surveyors, you've got people from s you know, sire inspectors, CDI inspectors and right ship. obviously also in that inspection thing. So so I was particularly well pleased I guess is the word to to to hear of a a collaboration between Rightship and North Standard, the P and I Club. I think they are they the the merger of North and Standard, I think that makes them the biggest. Is that right? They're the biggest Nick Chubb: Yeah, I think they are the biggest. Raal: P and I Club. basically sort of you know, trying to to kind of be a bit more thoughtful about this and say, why don't we just kind of inspect once share data? So so yeah, this is an agreement between Right Ship and All Standard, effectively saying inspect once, share, share the evidence so that people can form a picture of what's going on there. And so and so if we talk about the problem domain, it's really about that inspection duplication as people kind of you know increasingly coming aboard trying to find out the same. kind of information. And we've obviously there are multiple barriers to that. I think one of them obviously being trust that you've got to be, you know, confident that you share the same view on this and and on on what good looks like, etc. but also then questions around commercial advantage and that sort of stuff. So it's it might sound like a very easy thing to do, but it's quite a it's quite a tricky thing for any, you know, commercial organizations, I mean P and I's generally are are mutuals, aren't So they're not quite so profitable driven. But Rightship is a is a you know is a is a Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: an independent business. And so so looking at it, you know, from that point of view, I think it's pretty amazing that they've managed to do that. and and I wonder whether, you know, this is something that could be extended and whether they're, you know, would be interested in i in doing that further with other other mutuals and and potentially other kind of inspection stuff as well. Because as I say, it's it's it's a it the the the thing that came up last week in the context of Shaw leave is that that you know you do find that even if someone can get access to shore and go ashore, the Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: fear is that that they will need that person to be available for an audit or an inspection to be able to, you know provide the information that the inspector needs and things like that. So that's just one illustration of where this puts on a a lot of pressure. so yeah, I I thought it was an interesting one. Nick Chubb: It's interesting that I think EDWOL are sort of trying to do something like this. Obviously they are another kind of commercial inspection regime and I think they're primarily focused on sale and purchase and sort of vessel valuation. So it's a slightly different angle, but they have created, well think the thing that they've done that I think is quite interesting is they've created a standard survey. So any time a NIDBAL surveyor goes on board, they have the same set of questions and the same set of observations every single time and it's all done digitally. I think there's about 500 data points. then because they've done that over and over again thousands of times over the years, that has created a kind standardized vessel data set for the kind of quality of the vessel. And they're now trying to turn, I think, trying to turn that into a kind of IDWAL grade standard, you know, so you could ask for the IDWAL grade inspection of that ship. And in theory, anyone could then, you know, know that you're looking at the same. the same definition of quality across the fleet. I think things like Raal: Yeah, good. Nick Chubb: that are generally a really good idea. I think the question that always comes up for me is who ends up owning that standard. Because obviously both Wrightship and Idwal are private equity backed private companies rather than something like Ocimpf which is more of a not for profit mutual association. Raal: Well, I think w the the the question is about the value. Where is the value, right? So if you look at Christopher Saunders, who who I think you know, I know well, great guy. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. From Wrightship. Raal: From Rightship, yeah, he he says he puts it in the in there so the industry doesn't need more inspections, it needs better use of trusted inspections. And if you think about it from Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: the value to Rightship is in the data and they have a a a a very good data platform which is used and and for context for those who are una unaware of it, this is like when you're looking at operators to move your cargo and and that sort of stuff, you can see a huge amount of information about the vessel. And some of that is from inspections that RiteShip have conducted themselves. There's some self-assessments I think within that as well. You can look and see what vendors they use for certain key services and that kind of thing and whether RightShip approves of those vendors or has has has tested the the quality of those those vendors' offers in context as well, certainly my experience of it. So if you think about it from that point of view, that that the it's the data and the information that's of value and that's what they're really selling through Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: their service. And the inspections are really only the way of of giving validity to that data. And this would seem to suggest that that's how they see it. versus say a model where it's the it's the kind of charging out of the well of course we need to come and do the inspection and that that's sort of where you make your money. And when you look, you know, you mention there you're right to mention there. It's it's Pamira, isn't it? Is the is the funds that that are bought Nick Chubb: That's it. Yeah. Raal: into them. Certainly, you know, when you look at what private equity likes, it doesn't like people heavy businesses typically. It's like it it much approves of Of more kind of, you know, more of the kind of the SAS type models and things like that. Not exclusively, but typically they're drawn to those kind of higher margin businesses where you can really leverage the the the the quality of of the data and subscription services and so on. So so I thought it was really, really interesting. And and I think the the real question is that it comes back to is whether or not others take notice of this and we see you mentioned Idwell there. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: Rightship and I don't I'm not sure. I mean Idwell I guess they would be a competitor to Rightship, wouldn't they? They would would be in there. But Rightship is quite niche as we've discussed. We had Steen Lund on if you haven't haven't Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: seen that episode. it's a very interesting one around w where where rightship are going and what they're where they occupy. A very interesting company. I don't see them as having too many direct competitors, although there's some of the, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: you know, some of what they do get gets replicated. And and if you think about it with you mentioned Okinf there and and what they're doing with the Sire regime. It's all about confidence at the end of the day. I don't think they are particularly wedded and I think it's probably you know to doing inspections and it's probably quite an expensive thing for them to do. I know yeah, and I know Nick Chubb: business to be in. Yeah. Raal: it's very intensive. When you think about SIA 2.0, there's a lot of you know a lot of transformation to be done there in terms of getting the inspectors ready to be able to conduct quality assessments. and I wonder whether whether there's even a a model in there somewhere which which kind of you know if you could solve the problem of trust and of consistency whether there's even a kind of an uberization of this kind of thing in in in future, you know, to be able to sort of spin up the kind of inspections you need. Obviously I'm I'd say that, you know, f from a position of what's the way of of kind of glib it's a rather glib thing to say when you think about the level of knowledge and quality of inspections that you would need. But you know, there are people out there who have that expertise, I'm sure. But yeah, just thought it was a a Nick Chubb: Yeah, and a lot of... Raal: a good signal of potential cooperation across an area where you would expect people to really want to own their own version of it, you know? Nick Chubb: I've had a startup idea in the back of my head for some time that I don't have the time, patience or technical capability to build. But the one line pitch is I'll call it something like once. Right. And basically the idea is quite good. The idea is. Raal: I love the baked you've you've got this half baked idea which you've already branded. Nick Chubb: Named it. Yeah. I'm good at it. It's all the rest. It's like the will the execution of it That's the bit that I struggle with Raal: Some people have to figure that out, but this is what it Nick Chubb: But the concept Raal: wants. Nick Chubb: is right that you're the the promise of the platform is that will only ask for a piece of data once from a user or from from an inspection regime or whatever right, so if All the data that could be brought in by an organization from a ship or from a user on board a ship, all of that gets mapped and defined properly. And then if an inspector goes on board and they collect that piece of data, that's then it. It's in the platform and then you can send that out to any other piece of software or any other third party or anything like that as many times as you like. But the person on the sharp end of it only has to input data once and then that's it. Thank Raal: yeah. Yes. Nick Chubb: I the police, know, so all of the government departments ended up sharing data much better because of this single principle that data can only be asked for once. I thought if you could create a maritime version of that platform, I think it would be quite powerful. Raal: It would be, but it's kind of y you're driving a truck into the whole kind of idea of G D PR, aren't you? And and, you know, sharing data and stuff. Nick Chubb: Well, if anything, the GDPR is better because you're only asking for that data once. Raal: Well yes, but it's being used for multiple purposes which weren't apparent when you consented the first time. That's the issue. Nick Chubb: Yeah, I mean these are all details. This is why the idea is half-baked and I've only thought of the branding. Raal: It will it it it w it will elude the British government, I can tell you. waste of everyone's Nick Chubb: Yeah, they've just introduced in the UK, for any internationalists, they've introduced something called OneGov, which is supposed to Raal: Yes, this is it. Nick Chubb: be your one login for all government services. But the problem is I've got three government gateway IDs, which is a different thing for myself, for the company, whatever. And now they've introduced OneGov on top. So I've ended up with four different logins. Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: And none of them seem to talk to each other. All right, maybe it's a bit ambitious. Raal: Yeah. No, but one, I mean but Nick Chubb: But if anyone wants to build it, give me a shout. Raal: but yeah, I like the I like the brand. I I'm I'm all in. Nick Chubb: Thanks. Raal: I think it's I think it's a great idea. And and but genuinely, you know, there's there is there is a need to try and minimize the amounts of these these inputs and certainly you know, certainly where people are within the same kind of ecosystem as well, that that's that's Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: even more and what what I mean by that is let let's let's sort of assume that you've got within a company, you've got like multiple stakeholders within a company. Even even on that level, I think it's still and then you've got your customer and your customer's customer and all that's kind of requiring these sort of different reporting things on it. But the thing about this one here is is this i is the opportunities of being able to kind of collect more information because the implication here is that you know everybody if everybody is going in and effectively kinda asking the same or very similar questions Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: to a very simple, you know, that's it not only is that burdensome and it's also very inefficient, but if you th think a little bit like what they were trying to do with SIE two point which was say, give us all the the kind of the sort of let's say static information before we turn up. So we've got everything in there already collected and we can concentrate on talking to the people and really understanding where the people are at. It's that sort of same principle. I think if we could if we could minimize the amount of duplication of effort, we would allow us to kind of get a much richer picture of those kind of things. but let's stay on the subject of Nick Chubb: So, so. Raal: data. Nick Chubb: something I spotted along similar lines actually recently which I thought was quite interesting. Have you heard of the Oceanic Alliance? Raal: no, it is it sounds like something from what's that Marvel film, you know, like sort of like Aquaman, you know, joining up with Fish Lord Nick Chubb: ventures assemble. Yeah. Raal: or whatever, I don't know. Anyway, I digress. In holiday mode. Nick Chubb: That's something else. That Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: was quite interesting. They're part of the same group that owns Denaeos, the ERP. Raal: yes. Nick Chubb: They are introducing something which is a fairly new concept for me, but I quite like it. What they're calling procurement pooling. Raal: Mm. Nick Chubb: My view, if you're a small ship owner, has always been that if you want to get the best rates on consumables like lube oils and things like that, or stores, basically you just have to go to a third party ship manager. That is basically the only option on the market. And if they're big enough, they'll have the economies of scale to bring your costs Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: down. Their whole idea is instead of doing that, if you don't want to give up the document of compliance and kind of fully have the ship managed by a third party, they've created these procurement pools. So they've started with lubricants where they basically just pull a whole bunch of ship owners together and then procure lubricants centrally for that fleet. So they've got 300 and something ships kind of in there. lubricants pool as a starting point from 15 different ship owners and the idea is you get all of the economies of scale benefit without having to fully outsource all of the ship management. I just always quite you know we've got commercial pools in the industry we've got so it's quite an interesting concept. Raal: Well, I was just I was just gonna raise that very thing because in the episode where we talked to Michael Skov, the then CEO's just just stepped away, hasn't he? from Hafnia when he was kind of waxing lyrical on the the benefits of pooling. And if you remember I kind of went seized on that and went, okay, is this a a a sort of an example where we might see and he was kind of I think he was of the view that that was kind of small beans really for what what pooling was all about. But it stuck with me as one of those areas that we may see a cannibalization, let's say, of of of the ship manager's role. Obviously, you know, I I'm as you know, V Vice President of Inter Manager and I work very closely with with ship managers. So I I'd I I you know wanna say up front that's that ship managers bring way more value than just being able to, you know, to bargain for your lubes. But it's a simple fact that, you know, that that that is one of the the the the benefits of going to a ship manager is to get those kind of those things and the benefits of those bigger data pictures also as well. You know, when it when as we're Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Raal: you know I I've I've spoken many times about that ship manager's advantage of being able to you know, look at something like fuel EU and you look at the kind of efficiencies of that you can drive from, you know, modifications to to to how you operate and all that sort of stuff, ship managers are in that position just of having that vast amount of data to be able to draw those pictures from and that knowledge from around best practice and all that sort of stuff. but if we see kind of pooling beyond the commercial side of pooling, then it could be kind of interesting to see how that kind of develops and disrupts the the ship management model. But that's a model I would say, as we, you know, we talked about when we spoke to PM when we were in the chief services officer of OSM Tony when we were in Norway recently as well. You know, that it's it's a space that's already needing to diversify services being just one Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: example there. So I think, you know, they're they're live, ship managers are live to the kind of disruption. But this this is a really Interesting one. And you said there's about sort of three three, four hundred ships, something like that in Yeah. Ocean Alliance, did you say? Nick Chubb: Just going on what's on their website, yeah, they've got 350, that's it, yeah, 340 ships under Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: the Alliance from 15 different shipping groups. And they Raal: Yeah. And it Nick Chubb: bought 16 million liters of lube oil last year. Raal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, staying on the picture of staying on the subject of of sort of large amounts of data and and and what kind of happens there, I th I was amused by the splash wrap this week, splash twenty four seven, friends of ours. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: and they carried a story in the splash wrap and it and I and I had a I sort of looked a little bit more into it as well. And it was it it it reminded me very much of the discussion that we had. when you got back from Posidonia. And in Posidonia you were explaining that the use of Claude code is it claude Repli. Yeah. Nick Chubb: Yes, for like proofs of concept. Yeah, yeah. Raal: It was essentially I think, you know, if I to pracy what you said, like the UX UI all being generated from an AI source means that Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: basically differentiation goes out the window and everybody's applications look pretty much the same, right? Nick Chubb: Yeah, and was actually, I was just, as an aside, was just chatting to someone who works in product. They were saying that they have ended up in something, I think he called it Claude paralysis, where near enough, no decisions get taken without input from Claude now. and to the point that Claude is potentially making decisions on behalf of the organization and they'll just take whatever Claude says rather than really critically thinking about it. so I actually, can kind of see, taking that to the extreme degree, it doesn't just become UI, it becomes things like business strategy, marketing, everything ends up just kind of Claude-ified. But yes, it's definitely something I observed at Posadonia. Raal: Well let's come back let's come back to that point that you raised there because I think it's inherent and it we we will get back to it through this little meander that I'll take you through here. So what they're talking about in the the article that it it it comes round is is about broking, a subject I know very little about. I I've not had much to do with bing generally. I won't claim to to to know it. But but broking is like fundamentally an extremely kind of, let's say, I don't wanna call it Byzantine, I'm necessarily but how you arrive at decisions around it and stuff is it takes a huge amount of knowledge, it's very relationship sort of driven, that kind of stuff. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: It's it's a lot of, you know, it's probably the closest thing to Wall Street that we have, right? In in Nick Chubb: yet. Raal: in shipping. And it tends to attract those kind of dynamic kind of, you know, people who hate going to bed and just kind of like, you know, eat nails for breakfast and just, you know, like you know, do do five hundred burpees, you know, bef it's it's sort of like serious Nick Chubb: Ha ha. Raal: people, let's say. And and and a lot of that is about your network and picking up on all these sort of signals and being you know being able to make these kind of judgment calls around around what you're doing. And the the thing about the the i increasing relevance on data being that as you know ai has the ability to rifle through those huge volumes of data of all these different signals, you know, you're looking at you know prices, commodity prices, you're looking at you know all all sorts of things, whether geopolitics probably pays a very big part now more than anyone would want it to for them. But you know, like they're looking at all these multiple signals and everything. And and effectively the the argument that that they're making there in in in splashes that The more people start to rely on AI for this information, the more it's going to lead to a kind of a well, first of all, a kind of a smoothing of the market because everybody's Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: got the same information, but then actually having the opposite effect and starting to actually then influence the market, which means that the original prediction goes out the window because everybody acts on. the predic the same prediction, thus creating a completely different outcome from from what was intended. And I just thought, Jesus, I hadn't even kind of considered that. But this is kind of like, you know, a bit of a kind of a weird event horizon, right? That you that that you can see with it. Nick Chubb: It's an interesting area of AI ethics that's been researched quite heavily, essentially looking at things like AI in hiring decisions, for example, where Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: there has been historic discrimination. So that could be against a particular protected characteristic. And actually the best example of this is Amazon. Amazon had, they trained an AI. decision support tool for their hiring process and the most likely successful candidates at Amazon, historically going back over the years the company has existed, were men. And so this AI started reading CVs and anytime it saw, for example, like a women's college or it saw a women's basketball team or something like that, it would automatically downgrade the applicant because it matched a pattern. Even though explicitly written into the instructions for this thing was do not discriminate against women, it was pattern matching against what a successful candidate at Amazon looks like. In the end, Amazon actually had to scrap the whole program and go back to kind of manual version of this because they actually couldn't get this bias taken out. But what's really interesting is that when you take that forward, assuming that those decisions get made based on the AI recommendation, that then creates a new pattern of data where the decisions are being taken against the recommendations made by the AI, which then goes in to reinforce the AI again, that that's the right decision. And so you end up actually with this loop. where you get a tighter and tighter bias happening in the data set. And if you are using it to do things like fix ships in the market, over time, you potentially end up in a situation where you're putting yourself into a total blind spot. Raal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean i it it has to be a it has to be a a thing that's recognized. I mean slight slight diversion from this point which I think is really interesting around this kind of paradox I suppose that improved forecasting actually leading to more volatility and less predictability because everyone's acting on the recommendations. Nick Chubb: Yeah, the same information. Raal: It's I'm trying to see if there's a correlation to you mentioned, you know, making product decisions or making certainly marketing is a very good example of that, right? Where you're you're sort of having a loop going around, you know, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: what's being said, what's being talked about, what are you know, and therefore these are the things that you'll you want to be talking about and how you want to position your product and where you want to position it, all that sort of stuff. you know, creating this kind of just vanilla, miasma which makes it very hard for you to stand out and and differentiate. And and I think you're seeing Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: that like e even with graphic design, you know, stuff that that you know, of course th there's kind of there's there's there's different layers to it in in terms of the AI that we see. There's the slop, you know, the kind of just Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: generate me a thing and that's kind of you know you'll see that like down my road now there's like posters generated in the shop windows you know for the boot sale or for the you can just see straight away can't you you go you Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Raal: But like there's that level, that sort of ill thought out. But then there's the kind of the more polished level where people look at but again you can see it there, you can see that same And we talked about this with websites as well. You can see those kind of Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: clawed or clawed code generated websites. You know, it it's got a leading I mean, AI is kind of it's destined for the middle, right? Because it's always looking if everyone's looking in the same Nick Chubb: Yeah, so mean, it's ultimately right. Raal: Same inspiration. Nick Chubb: These things are prediction engines. you know, they've Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: had millions and millions, billions of words of text to train them. The whole magic trick of one of these tools is that if you start typing something, it will just work out what the most likely next word is, and then it'll just keep repeating that pattern. And that's how you're going to see these interfaces filling out. well, they can be very, very good for doing things like coding, because they've been trained on a huge amount of data. And it kind of looks like magic, often because it's in an area that we don't really understand well. But. you do end up, ultimately, if you run the same text through 300 times, you will have variations in that text, but ultimately, it is an averaging machine, so you will have a kind of average point of view that you'll reach. So the only way really to get to something that's totally unique in the market is you either have to feed it something that is totally unique to generate a unique opinion, or you have to use a good old fashioned human brain to kind of the unique layer in, otherwise you will end up with just the average of everything. It doesn't matter whether it's product or marketing or anything, if you're the average of everyone else in the market you'll end up at best performing averagely. Raal: But this this also drags back to the value of of data sets, right? Which which actually collides directly with the the story that we were just talking about with with Rightship and North Standard there, you know, sharing you know, sharing data and we we just talked about how that would be so important, but like if if the data is the differentiator that allows you to get the clearer picture. But the thing that's interesting to me just to come back to is it around broking, when when 'Cause broking was one of the the areas that you looked at and said when technology started flooding into maritime, you know, it was that that there has got to be nothing that's been more ripe for uberization than broking, right? It it's it's it should be as simple as as as that. But it's it's defied that, hasn't it? It's continued to be about people. And and so I was I you know, it's it's about relationships, it's about having knowledge and and being being able to pick up the phone to people and all that sort of stuff and move quickly and be bold and and the thing that's interesting about this is it's it's kind of showing again where even even sort of AI creeping in and potentially you know maybe leading leading it into that sort of automated direction that even this may find itself falling foul of eating itself kind of almost. I I was quite delighted with that really. Nick Chubb: Have you heard of Citrini Research? Raal: No. Nick Chubb: Okay, so they're really interesting investment research firm. They actually produced, do you remember, probably about six months ago now, a kind of vision of the future came out that kind of tanked the S &P 500. It recovered quite quickly, but like, it took like 15 % of the S &P 500's value in a day. That was a Citrini Research report on AI. future of AI and the collapse of the knowledge economy and all that sort of stuff. When the Straight Up for Moose thing kicked off, they basically ate their own dog food. And the idea being that everyone near enough has access to the same kinds of data sets and go and subscribe to Kepler or whatever, and get access to a data set of kind of what's going on with AIS data in the Straight of Hormuz and everyone has access to the same kind of AI tools. So everyone's going to feed that data into the same AI tools and they're to come up with the same kind of analysis to come up with a position on what's going to happen to the oil markets and therefore be able to make an investment on it. The team at Citrini Research decided, well, if everyone's going to do that, I'm not going to get an edge. And so if we don't have an edge, there's no point in us being in the market. So instead, what they did is they took one of their more talented analysts, An analyst who speaks four languages, including Arabic. They gave the analyst a pack of Cuban cigars, $15,000 in cash and a roll of Zin and then put them on a plane to Oman and then set them the task of going and standing basically on the coast, on the very edge of the Strait of Hormuz with a pair of binoculars and actually count ships going through in real time to work out what is actually going on on the ground. In the end, they actually published a report on what this analyst found out and again, completely moved the markets because what was showing on AIS, what was being spoofed through satellite signals, all that sort of stuff, a lot of it was fabricated. And then this whole kind of shadow fleet of tankers that are being allowed through by the Iranians that we know owned by Russians and all that sort of stuff that no one was talking about because they didn't have AIS on, no one else could see except for this analyst with his pack of Cuban cigars and $15,000 to bribe people a set of binoculars sat straight on, you know, sat on the top of a cliff watching these ships go by. So I think to your point, if you want to get an edge in the market these days, it actually requires you to go out and do the in real life dirty research that no one else wants to do. Otherwise, you're just feeding the same data into the same AI tools as everyone else and you'll get the same answers. It's well worth a read. Raal: Fascinating. I I love that. I think that's a I think that's fascinating. And what what a I mean, you know, this is a really really interesting thing. You're you're a big fan of of Rory Sutherland as well as as I am, right? Nick Chubb: Yes, yeah, yeah. Raal: and and and one of the one of his big things as well with with the obsession with data and so on, is that it it's only ever s showing you what's happened in the past. It's not giving you that that that forward Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: looking view, which when when you're talking about patterns and and and things like this in an increasingly volatile world it it it's it's an interesting one that really and and that that being that gap I guess as well around what is publicly available as data and what is and what is reality. And I think there's there's numerous kind of examples of that but but one example of that is social media. Right, and the way in which that and I think if you look at that, I mean sort of going off topic a little bit, but but if you look at politics, for example, as allowed as as being dominated by the idea that social media is a an is a genuine reflection of sentiment, and and that's really that's how people Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: see the word. Whereas in reality, social media is dominated by a a very active minority. that that are like people when they're in their cars, you know, are behaving and talking in a way that they would never talk about in their, you know, in their lives. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Raal: And and things that they care about. Well, if all you're doing is writing something angrily on your phone, it's very different Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: from taking to the streets and kind of actually actively doing something and being prepared, even being prepared to get up and Go out and vote. You know, it's it's it's so, Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, Raal: you know, and and the political sphere has been so beholden to that. And I think people have started waking up to that, where you kind of see like something very strongly indicated online, which then doesn't manifest, you know, in in the real world. And I think that's that's very dangerous then when you come, and that's without sort of thinking about you mentioned spoofing and things like that. Well, you know, the amount of bot. Activity that's gone in to try and create this false kind of consensus, Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: Like it it it's what Nick Chubb: No, you're absolutely right. Raal: people say they care about and even what they think they may think Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: drives their decisions is not necessarily borne out in reality. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's very, very true. And I think, you know, obviously a shameless plug moment for Thetios, but like we've pivoted our whole business model in the last two or three years to be around primary research interviews because what we've found over the years and a few... mistakes in our research over the years is that the gulf between what gets announced publicly in the press and on social media and talked about on conference stages and all that sort of stuff, all data that you can mine very, very easily, and then what gets talked about between technology buyers who speak to each other in the industry, there's a very, very wide gap. actually the gap between the marketing copy and the reality of customer feedback. So we now do 250, thereabouts, primary research interviews per year so that we have a beat on that and it allows us to produce research that is, we think, much more reflective of the reality of where things are at and possibly emit certain suppliers from our research coverage where we feel that there's a big gap between what they're saying and what their customers are saying and thinking. And I think that idea applies sort of new enough anywhere. Anywhere you're trying to get, if you want to get an edge in the market in any way, shape or form, you need some kind of earned insight. And Raal: Mm. Nick Chubb: the only way to get an insight is to do something that other people are not willing to do. So if you are Raal: Well Nick Chubb: just scraping LinkedIn or reading LinkedIn, you are only going to get the unearned insight. Raal: Well, let me challenge you then. I agree, I'm not challenging you on that. Let me challenge you to take this one step further. Your your cigars and roll of dosh and binoculars Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: on the on the Strait of Hormuz where where would you go with your cigars and and roll of dollar bills to to really get the scoop on the maritime technology space? Nick Chubb: wow, what a good question. I would go to... So maritime technology specifically, I would go to Chinese shipyards because my hunch is what's being produced for the domestic market in China, both in terms of what's fueling those ships and how those ships are being driven, if you like, the level of autonomy, the technology going on board to enable that. I have a feeling, and it is only a feeling, that it's worlds apart from what we are talking about publicly in the kind of international markets for the shipping industry. And particularly domestic shipping in China, I think is probably in a different place to where the rest of the world is, I imagine. So I'll go there. For technology more generally. I actually think Taiwan would be a very interesting place to go because that is where 90 % of the world's chips are fabricated. And so to try and find out what is going on with chip technology and therefore what that's going to do to compute in 12, 18 months down the line and what that will therefore do to AI, I think that would be a very, interesting little field trip. So yeah, I think I'll probably do a little tour of Asia, start in China, and then go to Taiwan. Raal: Hmm. Yeah, it's it's an interesting one. What one of the things that I'm c I'm not gonna try and remember the guy's name, so I'm gonna gonna cock it up. But I was with a very interesting guy when you and I were together in Dubai a couple of years ago, and I was on a I I was moderating a panel with a chap who was a very smart guy. And he's this we we were all talking about, you know, the decarbonisation. This was all pre net zero framework going up the Swanee. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: and but he you know it was exactly this point like getting to what's really what can we rely on and Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: he's his thing was final investment decision. That's the only thing that you can really kind of forecast. He he was a bro. I'm pretty Nick Chubb: That's interesting. Raal: sure he was a broker actually. Final investment decision because that's where it becomes real. That's the only thing that you can really go on. What people are putting out in the press, what they're saying, what they're kind of Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: like, you know, eva even on their, you know, on the stage when they're kind of you know, when they do their keynotes or their panel discussions and talk about, you know, the one thing that you can rely on is the is when the decision to spend the money is there. And Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: always stuck in my mind and it was one of the things that I I kind of always look to is to sort, you know, follow the money. Where are people actually we're actually spending. But I mean what you were sort of getting there was was kind of like what's actually happening, what's moving, which I think, you know, that's very market level. But what about like what about when it comes to the buyer? When it comes if you're if you're if you are one of those startups, one of those smart people, maybe done very well in other industries, you're looking to kind of move across into maritime, you read, you do a all your diligent reading, you scrape the LinkedIn feeds with your AI bot comes back and says, these are the things that the ship owning community care about, you know. and then you realise listening to our episode, that explains why I'm not shifting any of my stuff. Nick Chubb: I'm Raal: Where would you where would you go with your cigars and your roll of of dollars? Not to bribe people, I hasten to add, to observe, to observe. Nick Chubb: Well, would follow it. Yeah, following your thread, following your thread. I'm actually I'm in the middle of this at the moment. I've had for a product I'm sort of toying with launching. I've had 16 meetings in the last two weeks. And so one thing to say, everyone in the world, including the most hard to reach people, are one email away from you. you can genuinely reach anyone. Maybe the king might be a bit tricky, but generally speaking, even heads of state can be reached by email. Great example actually, Michael Scov, CEO of Hafnia, we hadn't launched Undocked. We think we'd recorded an episode and I emailed him directly. In fact, it was on LinkedIn. I sent him LinkedIn message directly and said, we're launching this podcast, would you like to come on it? And he said yes. And so that's the CEO of the largest ship owning company in the world. We didn't know each other before he came on the show. And so... Raal: Yeah, but you can't start please don't start emailing Michael Scott, leave him alone. Nick Chubb: Yeah, lesson applies, but yeah, be selective in how you do that. But anyone can be reached by email, right, or by phone. And it doesn't take very much intelligence to work out how. What I would do in that situation and what I am currently doing is getting in front of people who I think could buy the product and then showing them the product and then asking them for money. And that might seem... overly simplistic and in many ways it is overly simplistic but it comes back to your point of the final investment decision. I could show people a product and they can say this looks lovely I really like it yeah I think you should keep working on this I think this is a fantastic idea and then you say I would like X amount of money for you to benefit from this. And then suddenly that feedback stops. And you get a lot more signal back from the market when you actually ask for the investment to be made than you get from asking people's opinions, asking people to... to make an introduction to someone, anything like that. Because all of those things are very, cheap and very, easy to do. And certainly giving positive feedback, which is people are polite, they tend to want to positive feedback. is a very cheap and easy thing to do, whereas actually committing with dollars and cents is much harder and there's a much higher bar to clear to be sure that you're actually onto something that's worth your time and money. So the answer to your question, which will probably disappoint the team at Thetis greatly, because I should be saying, commission some research or something, but if I was actually in that situation, I would get in front of the people who I think are the decision makers, I would put the value proposition to them and then I would ask them to commit in some way shape or form and I would listen very very carefully to the answer because I think you you get a huge amount of earned insight coming back to my earlier conversation you get a huge amount of earned insight from the responses that people give you that you would never get from a LinkedIn feed and you don't need Cuban cigars to do it. Raal: I I think I think it's kind of like you said, like like gravitating towards non public forums that would be, you know, now that can Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: happen at events, you know, like the in the sort of, you know, in the coffee breaks or in the in in Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: social situations. I think you know, for me no substitute for getting to the end user but actually meet them where they are, you know, And and you know, going to somewhere like Lunetta Park in Manila, if you're if you're creating product for seafarers, go Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: watch, hang out, you know, listen, just you know, just j I mean, on a ship ideally, that's where you're gonna see if you can get, you know, if you can get on a ship. but even sort of, you know, even even just just sort of being around seafarers, listening to looking at how they prioritize stuff, that kind of thing. I think getting getting on the plane and getting getting first hand access to people, you know, Seafarer Lounges, that's another Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: great place if you can get in to to to those, you know, though they've got they've got time on their hands, that's a good time to to engage and stuff like that. You know, I I I say Nick Chubb: That is a massively underrated thing to do, by the way, is get Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: on a plane and go and see people physically. Yeah, I find the ROI on that is enormous. And actually going to those things outside of the major show season, so going to Hamburg, not to SMM, going to Macedonia, sorry, going to Athens, not during Macedonia, is so much better. Raal: Yeah, yeah. I i it can sometimes be you know, you can sometimes think, I'll do all my visits while the this massive show is going on. Yeah, Nick Chubb: No, no, no, Raal: whereas your if your customer is actually hoping to see their customers that week, you're not gonna get a look in eye and that that that happens a lot. Nick Chubb: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Raal: one more story, I think if we have time, because this was hot Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, go on. Raal: off the press today and I I thought it was really good. So you and I have talked a little bit, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, about about about AI and as we always talk about AI, don't we? But about shadow AI. which was Nick Chubb: Yes. Raal: which is like, you know, people picking up AI tools and stuff like that. So you know, most of the time on the show we talk about, you know, deployments of AI and and people rolling out AI, you know, elements to their to to how they kind of manage things. But this side sort of what we call shadow AI is where people are sort of enterprising and pick up tools that they can, you know, either free tools or professional subscriptions, to to start kind of using it. And it could be for all manner of of things, you know, to to error check, spreadsheets, help them write emails, whatever, you know, all that kind of stuff. and and part of that discussion is then How do, you know, how could or should companies be managing that and are their sort of policies? So I was interested to see Mintra, the maritime offshore learning provider, released an e-learning course today. And it was around let me have a look, launched two short AI courses, one general, one specifically maritime and offshore. The general course, 25 minutes covering the EU AI Act. Risk classifications, prohibited practices, and organizational responsibilities. So it's short, you know, 30 minute AI, which then moves into practical scenarios, human in oversight of AI and stuff like that. Some of the things that we've talked about in in critical operations. So I was very interested to see, good on them for for grasping the the nettle there in and and getting on with this. I'm not familiar with this EU AI Act, so I'm guessing that you know. that's what sort of prompted them to take a look at it. And it said the EI Nick Chubb: give a quick primer if you like. Raal: the you wanna tell me what it is? Do you know what it is? Nick Chubb: Yeah, the EU-AI Act is the first major regulation on AI. And to give the most important bit of information, because it's probably a deep dive in its own right, there's two things. One, if your organization uses AI tools and the output of those tools or the tools themselves touch EU citizens. required under the EU AI Act to both classify your AI use at risk level. that's things like there's four or five different risk levels. I'm doing this off the top of my head. There's basically like low risk, which is like processing spreadsheets, drafting emails, right up to prohibited risk, or I think it's very high risk, which is basically totally outlawed uses of AI. So things like... facial recognition for discrimination purposes, know, things that you just legally cannot do. And then there's various categories in the middle. Yeah, exactly. Raal: Bioweapons, that kind of thing. Nick Chubb: You have to classify the risk of the tools that you're using, or the tools that the EU citizens will have access to. And then you also have to make sure that your staff have received a level of appropriate training in AI use and kind of covers off the kind of basic foundations of AI use, which is where this course, I imagine this course has been launched to coincide with that. Anyone who is interacting with the EU at all using AI will have to have put their staff through training like this. law came into force on the 1st of August 2026. So it's very well timed from a interest perspective, but they are effectively Raal: Well that Nick Chubb: trying to, I think, cover the training requirement of the EU AI Act. There's a lot more to it, but those are the headlines of kind of what will hit anyone listening to this, I think. Raal: Yeah, so just to be clear, I think what I'm reading here is the the the nuance of the law is organizations don't have to demonstrate that every employee has reached some prescribed level of AI competence. What would that look like? I don't know. But it says following amendments took effect in July, the obligation is to take measures to support AI literacy. So so this would that this is gold from an e-learning provider's point of view, let me tell you, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: from my past experience. Because what you're what you're really concentrating on there is a awareness, you know, which which Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: is very, very different from being have able to sort of you know being obliged to classify AI competence which would be Nick Chubb: they don't have to do a quiz. Yeah, yeah. Raal: much more of a challenge and much more subject to argument I guess around it but but it's interesting. I mean one of the things that you know one it's one of the things that I look to from suppliers and one of the things that I always did When I when I was running content for for businesses in the past, was like looking at being ahead of the curve for these kind of things and making sure that you're thinking about organizational needs before the organization understands them is really, really important. And what do I mean by that? I'll give you a really good example. I used to have you know various alerts that I would look to, and the one in question was GDPR. And that was whenever that came in, GDPR. And it landed on my desk. And I immediately kind of put a a a sort of a pin in it as to like should we should we kind of put that forward as a candidate to develop something? And I thought, you know what? This this is not really a shipping thing. It's not coming from the normal sort of shipping regulated sources and that kind of thing. So I'll phone around all my customers and you know, some some key customers, I should say, and and ask them. So good relationships with various people responsible for for for training and stuff. And I phoned ever maybe five or six people and said, What's your thoughts on GDPR? Do you think that's something we These are customers who rely on the library? I don't think any of them had heard of GDPR. When Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Raal: I described what it was, they said to me, No, I don't think. You know, when Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: GDPR came out, the same people called me and said, Have you got anything on GDPR? And we had nothing because I took them at their word that they weren't interested in GDPR. Nick Chubb: Have you got a course? Raal: So it's an art form to really be thinking about this kind of stuff. And and you know, like you can you can sort of the fact that this is supported by the the the EU Act clearly, you know, and I mentioned before Mintra with the with the big i with the big offshore thing in Norway, you know, that they're they're going to be following those kind of European laws maybe more than some people who are more internationally focused. I don't know whether whether this applies to anyone coming into EU ports and stuff. Maybe we should have a have a little look at it. But but I think it's yeah so I think it's interesting that they've they've gone early with that and certainly I've not seen anything else coming along there. So it's it's kind of interesting to me that that's That's something that they've moved on. I think the the only downside, and I don't, you know, mean any any disrespect by this, they're doing what they what they can do there, but I think we have to be careful that that then doesn't become the sticking plaster, you know, and it's like a little bit like GDPR actually. You know, you roll out a fifteen minute e learning thing and and Nick Chubb: Yep. Raal: you get the kind of comfort that that that box is ticked and everyone's been through that and you know, we do sometimes see that, you know, that that doesn't necessarily mean that people really understand the risks and involved with that and are able to kind of consistently apply that that rule. So, you know, I would suggest to be used as part of a a perhaps a bigger rollout of a human capital management sort of solution. Nick Chubb: Can I leave you with a very quick and final thing that Raal: Please. Nick Chubb: producer Tom found just before we started recording? Raal: yes. Nick Chubb: We had Stephen Jones of the Sea Various Happenings Index last week and he used to work on cable layers. And for some reason, Raal: Yes. Nick Chubb: cable layers are the least happy ships. I think they got a five out 10 in overall happiness, whereas the average is like a seven. And so we did ask the question, why are cable layers so miserable? And I think potentially part of the answer will be in this article that came out today. A $600 million undersea power cable has been rerouted. to spare Dobby the House Elf's grave. So a company laying doing a $600 million cable laying project that will connect the UK's national power grid to Ireland, to the power grid in Ireland so we can share renewable energy back and forth. They're laying a 125 mile cable between County Wexford and a freshwater west beach in Wales in Pembrokeshire. They did an interview on the BBC about the project and they had hundreds of phone calls from concerned Harry Potter fans that the cable was going to go through Dobby the House Elf's fictional grave. which I think is where they filmed his death in the films. And so they've actually rerouted the cable out of respect to Dobby. Raal: you know like there are people who your heart goes out to and and very much thoughts and prayers with Simon Ludlum, the CEO of the project manager which is Etchier Energy. and did they move they've moved the the the cable. Nick Chubb: I don't, it didn't say in the article where they've moved it to. So I don't know. Raal: yeah. Mad world we live in, Mad world. Nick Chubb: Well, on that happy note, let's call it there. That's Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: the pod, everyone. Thank you very much for listening. And thanks, as always, Ryle, for a fun chat. Raal: Yes, cheers my friend. See you next week.