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Caught Redheaded? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
0:08
Speaker 1: Never told you protection of I Heeart Radio. Samantha, have
0:19
Speaker 1: you ever wanted to dye your hair? Well, I didn't
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Speaker 1: necessarily want to dye my hair. I wanted my hair
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Speaker 1: to be different colors, if that makes sense. Like I
0:27
Speaker 1: wished it was a different color. But I've never tried
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Speaker 1: or wanted to dyet just because I know of the
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Speaker 1: pain it is, and because I was so scared of
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Speaker 1: my Asian heritage, as in like I didn't want to
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Speaker 1: be Asian, that dyeing your hair was so Asian American
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Speaker 1: thing to do in my head. That didn't want to
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Speaker 1: be that stereotype, which is also a very big reflection
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Speaker 1: of my own self hate in my ethnicity. So yeah,
0:53
Speaker 1: weird answer to that question. I mean, it's it can
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Speaker 1: be very complicated. I also wish my hair was a
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Speaker 1: different color. For a long time, I felt like my
1:03
Speaker 1: hair was very boring and bland, and I wanted I
1:08
Speaker 1: think I ran the gamut of like one time I
1:10
Speaker 1: really wanted blonde hair and I got blonde highlights. One
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Speaker 1: time I I did die my hair black and it
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Speaker 1: was a disaster, and then one time I got red highlights,
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Speaker 1: So I've never professionally got my hair like completely died,
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Speaker 1: but I have done highlights, and I've definitely done like
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Speaker 1: cheap kind of temporary you know, bright blue or bright
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Speaker 1: pink or white. When I dressed as rogue one time,
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Speaker 1: that was also a disaster. But I wanted to bring
1:39
Speaker 1: that up because today we are talking about red headed
1:44
Speaker 1: women and this is actually a listener suggestion that we
1:47
Speaker 1: got from Wendy, So thanks Wendy, and we wanted to
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Speaker 1: read their message. I've been reflecting on the fetishizing of
1:53
Speaker 1: redheads and how it's impacted me as a woman my
1:55
Speaker 1: whole life. I've had men tell me from as young
1:58
Speaker 1: as six that my hair color would get me in
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Speaker 1: trouble and to watch out for boys. Women would automatically
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Speaker 1: either be threatened by the quote sexuality of my hair
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Speaker 1: and treat me with contempt. Around their significant other men
2:09
Speaker 1: would ask us the carpet, match the drapes with a smirk,
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Speaker 1: or make comments about redheads having bad tempers. Redheads are
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Speaker 1: super freaking the bedroom always being treated as a price
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Speaker 1: to be one or something to be checked off a
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Speaker 1: bucket list. I can't tell you the amount of times
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Speaker 1: strangers have touched my hair in public or go out
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Speaker 1: of their way to say something about it, even going
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Speaker 1: as far as following me around the grocery store. I
2:28
Speaker 1: resented my hair for all these reasons and have died
2:30
Speaker 1: it in the past and was met with a lot
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Speaker 1: of pushback from other people, as if it was their
2:34
Speaker 1: hair I died, not my own. Why would you do
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Speaker 1: that to your beautiful hair? It should be natural. I've
2:40
Speaker 1: suffered from sexual abuse way too many times, and now
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Speaker 1: I wonder if that wouldn't have happened if I had
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Speaker 1: a different hair color. At the end of the day,
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Speaker 1: I wish I had regular hair so I can have
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Speaker 1: some peace from constantly being reminded that I'm the center
2:51
Speaker 1: of someone else's fantasy. And yeah, there's a lot to
2:55
Speaker 1: unpack there, and researching this episode, a lot of people,
2:58
Speaker 1: in this case women, men who have red hair reported
3:02
Speaker 1: very similar experiences. And one of my best friends, Katie,
3:06
Speaker 1: who has been on this show, she has red hair. Um,
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Speaker 1: a very very red and very curly red hair, and
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Speaker 1: we've been friends since since we were about like eight
3:16
Speaker 1: or nine. We've known each other longer than that, but um,
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Speaker 1: we didn't like each other at first, I did want
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Speaker 1: to be redheaded, mostly because of comic books, because there
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Speaker 1: are a lot of like beautiful, powerful redheads and comic books.
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Speaker 1: And I did get the red highlights. I don't know
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Speaker 1: that I pulled them off, and the person who gave
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Speaker 1: them to me, she made me walk outside and like
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Speaker 1: see what it looked like in the sunlight. To this day,
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Speaker 1: I don't know if that sound was a good sound
3:41
Speaker 1: or bad sound that she made, but do you need
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Speaker 1: I did feel very weird, like I felt like a
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Speaker 1: faker in a way I didn't when I got blonde highlights.
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Speaker 1: And I wonder if it's because it's sort of more
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Speaker 1: acceptable or common to get blonde highlights. There's still judgment
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Speaker 1: that goes in there, for sure, but like red hair
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Speaker 1: is much rarer. I don't know. Oh, it was just bizarre.
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Speaker 1: It was kind of embarrassed by it, even then that
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Speaker 1: I was getting these red highlights. And we talked about
4:07
Speaker 1: the power of red as a color in a past episode.
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Speaker 1: And I do think in entertainment it is either meant
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Speaker 1: to imply fiery, sexy or awkward, and not much in between,
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Speaker 1: especially for women. Although yeah, we're gonna be talking about
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Speaker 1: redheaded men and the stereotypes around that making someone redheaded
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Speaker 1: and media feels like a choice. To me, it feels
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Speaker 1: like you're trying to communicate something or you like going
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Speaker 1: back to the matrix. You know, the woman red it's
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Speaker 1: not red hair, but it was trying to communicate like
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Speaker 1: sexiness and it's eye catching and all that stuff. We've
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Speaker 1: also done episodes on the power, symbolism and sexualization of
4:41
Speaker 1: hair on women, something churches often required to be covered
4:45
Speaker 1: or tied back, associated with sex, infertility, and also, yeah,
4:48
Speaker 1: just to be clear, there are stereotypes associated with all
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Speaker 1: hair colors, and past host Kristen and Caroline did an
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Speaker 1: episode looking into that, but today we aren't talking about redheads.
4:58
Speaker 1: There you go. So only about two percent of the
5:01
Speaker 1: world's population have a red hair, about one forty million people,
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Speaker 1: although some surveys suggest that number might actually be a
5:08
Speaker 1: lot lower. The highest percentage of redheads are in Scotland,
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Speaker 1: where they account for about of the population. Red hair
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Speaker 1: is the result of a genetic mutation. Both parents have
5:19
Speaker 1: to be carrying a mutated MC one our gene, a
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Speaker 1: mutation that dates back to Asia between three to four
5:24
Speaker 1: thousand years ago, or at least that has been the belief.
5:28
Speaker 1: More recent research indicates up to eight genes could be
5:31
Speaker 1: involved in this right. And while redheads exist worldwide, it
5:35
Speaker 1: is more common in northern latitudes because it is an
5:38
Speaker 1: adaptation to absorb more vitamin D with less sunlight. So yes,
5:43
Speaker 1: redheads are typically fair skinned folks that do burn more
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Speaker 1: easily in sunlight and are more prone skin cancer because
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Speaker 1: of that. So that makes a lot of sense, but
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Speaker 1: not always, no, not always. Um, you can find red
5:56
Speaker 1: hair pretty much anywhere. And also there's a lot of
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Speaker 1: conflicting studies about pain tolerance and redheads and also tolerance
6:03
Speaker 1: to heat and cold. That's not really what we're talking
6:05
Speaker 1: about today, but their research does exist if you're curious
6:08
Speaker 1: and you want to look into it. Okay, So stereotypes,
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Speaker 1: there are all kinds of tropes and stereotypes around red hair.
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Speaker 1: That it means you're fiery, or you have a short temper,
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Speaker 1: that you've got the devil in you, that you're better
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Speaker 1: in bed, that you're temperamental and or crazy, and a
6:21
Speaker 1: lot of articles about what it's like having red hair.
6:23
Speaker 1: People wrote about some more things to what Wendy was
6:25
Speaker 1: talking about, um asking you if that's your natural hair, color,
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Speaker 1: telling you to never diet, asking if the carpet matches
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Speaker 1: the drapes, saying firecrotch u redheaded step child, joking that
6:35
Speaker 1: you have no soul, asking if it's true what they
6:37
Speaker 1: say about redheads, asking where you're from, assuming you're irish.
6:41
Speaker 1: Some of these stereotypes have a long history behind them,
6:43
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to ideas around sexuality and witchcraft.
6:48
Speaker 1: In ancient Egypt, redheads may have been believed to be
6:51
Speaker 1: which is or evil. The ancient Greeks depicted two groups
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Speaker 1: that cause them trouble, the Scythians and three Seans, as violent, brutish,
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Speaker 1: and redheaded, the Celt's fault hard against the ancient room
7:02
Speaker 1: and Empire's expansion north, and the ancient Romans depicted them
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Speaker 1: as redheads in their art and documents. The Bible's Judas
7:09
Speaker 1: was often portrayed as a redhead as a way to
7:12
Speaker 1: other him from the other dark haired apostles, and perhaps
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Speaker 1: as an anti Semitic touch, especially later, and this solidified
7:20
Speaker 1: a connection between redheads and villains for a lot of folks,
7:23
Speaker 1: especially this Judas thing, especially that Michelangelo's work at the
7:27
Speaker 1: Sistine Chapel depict sinful Eve as a redhead. Mary Magdalen
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Speaker 1: was often depicted as a red head too, and some
7:33
Speaker 1: think that's because of her sexual experience. One of the
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Speaker 1: oldest surviving Norse documents describes Thor as a redhead quick
7:40
Speaker 1: to anger, as compared to his father, Odd was calm
7:43
Speaker 1: and wise and blonde. As a part of these stereotypes,
7:47
Speaker 1: some historical figures were depicted having red hair when they
7:50
Speaker 1: actually didn't to kind of say like, oh, they were
7:52
Speaker 1: fierce or angry or something like that. Yeah, And obviously
7:56
Speaker 1: these stereotypes have had painful, deadly consequences. When the European
8:01
Speaker 1: witch hunts reached their peak during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries,
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Speaker 1: many women were killed for suspected witchcraft just for being redheaded.
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Speaker 1: On top of that, like we discussed in our Power
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Speaker 1: of Red episode, red is often used to denote danger
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Speaker 1: or as of warning, So blood fire stop signs. All
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Speaker 1: of that. Yes, and a lot of redheads. And I
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Speaker 1: was researching this brought up a two thousand five South
8:24
Speaker 1: Park episode called Ginger Kids, which I have seen this.
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Speaker 1: In this episode, Cartman gives a class presentation on gingers,
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Speaker 1: which he describes as pale skin, redheaded people, people he
8:34
Speaker 1: believes are affected with ginger vitis. On top of that,
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Speaker 1: he thinks gingers are disgusting, unable to walk in sunlight,
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Speaker 1: and aren't human and have no souls. Cartman's friend Kyle,
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Speaker 1: attempts to prove him wrong, um Kyle's redhead No, don't
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Speaker 1: really see his hair um, and gives a counterpresentation and
8:50
Speaker 1: pointing out that red hair is genetic, and goes to
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Speaker 1: visit a family with redheaded children born from parents who
8:55
Speaker 1: carried the recessive gene but weren't red headed themselves. To
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Speaker 1: Kyle's suck, the parents share Cartman's views, and the dad
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Speaker 1: tells them that marrying an Asian woman is the one
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Speaker 1: way to make sure the gene doesn't get passed down.
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Speaker 1: Cartman doubles down, using the Bible and this holder just
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Speaker 1: thing to back up his claims and causing the school
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Speaker 1: at large to turn on redheads, deciding they need to
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Speaker 1: teach him a lesson. Kyle and stand die Cartman's hair
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Speaker 1: red without his knowledge, lightness, skin, and add freckle tatues,
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Speaker 1: callsing Cartman to believe he has a case of gingeridis.
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Speaker 1: A trip to the doctor ends with the doctor suggesting
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Speaker 1: to Cartman's mother that he be quote put down when
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Speaker 1: the mocking of his hair and skin it pushes him
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Speaker 1: too far. He creates the Gingers separatist movement and calls
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Speaker 1: on other red has to join him to fight persecution
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Speaker 1: and to become the master race. Cartman persuades the other
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Speaker 1: Ginger kids that they need to kill all non Gingers,
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Speaker 1: so they capture the town's non Ginger people and prepare
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Speaker 1: to sacrifice them, starting with Kyle, who is what Cartman
9:49
Speaker 1: calls a day walker or a half red head. Kyle
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Speaker 1: reveals to Cartman that Cartman is in fact not a Ginger,
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Speaker 1: that it was a prank all along. Cartman, now concerned
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Speaker 1: for his own safety, declares that the Gingers need to
10:00
Speaker 1: of in harmony with non Gingers. As you can probably
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Speaker 1: tell from the description, the episode caused some controversy, even
10:07
Speaker 1: leading to the creation of National Kick of Ginger Day
10:10
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, and a handful of students
10:12
Speaker 1: were assaulted, and in Canada it was investigated as a
10:15
Speaker 1: hate crime. Yeah. Apparently, Soft Park creators Matt Stone and
10:19
Speaker 1: Trey Parker were partially inspired to do this episode after
10:22
Speaker 1: they saw billboard in England with a picture of a
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Speaker 1: redheaded woman that read only you can prevent ginger. Parker
10:29
Speaker 1: also apparently broke up with a woman with red hair
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Speaker 1: because he didn't want redheaded children, and married an Asian
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Speaker 1: woman in part to make sure that he didn't have
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Speaker 1: any redheaded children. That's gross all around. Okay, studies have
10:41
Speaker 1: found that redheaded children do experience low self esteem and
10:44
Speaker 1: feelings of being the center of attention based on their hair. Yes, so, um,
10:50
Speaker 1: let's talk about some fetishizing, sexualizing, and some troopes. So
10:55
Speaker 1: when I was researching this, the first Google suggestion I
10:58
Speaker 1: got was facts about redheads bed. Some European studies have
11:02
Speaker 1: found that redheaded women have more sex than blonder, brown
11:04
Speaker 1: haired women on average on an average week. But a
11:06
Speaker 1: lot of stuff I found online was treating having sex
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Speaker 1: with a redheaded woman as a notch on your belt,
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Speaker 1: like a conquest of markoff, like Wendy was describing at
11:14
Speaker 1: the top, especially a redhead with blue eyes, which is
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Speaker 1: apparently the rarest combination. And yeah, this fiery redhead trope
11:21
Speaker 1: is everywhere. You've got Ginger from Gilligan's Island, you've got
11:25
Speaker 1: Lily Potter and Jenny Weasley, and then on the other side,
11:28
Speaker 1: of that, you have Fred and George representing the kind
11:30
Speaker 1: of male redheaded clown stereotype, which we're gonna talk about
11:33
Speaker 1: in a second. Um, And yeah, so much. In comics,
11:35
Speaker 1: it's got Scarlet Witch, Mary, Jane Parker, Jean Gray, Natasha
11:37
Speaker 1: Room and Off, Poison Ivy, Jessica Rabbit, Joan Harris, Slash
11:41
Speaker 1: Holloway from Madman, Gemma Doyle, Rowena from Supernatural, Sarah c.
11:47
Speaker 1: Willow from Buffy. So some of this is like the
11:49
Speaker 1: witch stereotype as well. Lucile Ball, Pippi's longstocking, Annie and
11:54
Speaker 1: Green Gables, Meridith from Brave. Um, there's a whole scene
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Speaker 1: where her mother covers her hair but a curl exclusive
12:00
Speaker 1: it's symbolizing her untamable, wild, fiery, rebellious nature. And then
12:05
Speaker 1: there's this quote from The Show Girls that girl wears
12:07
Speaker 1: floor Kapris like her him is still attack but she's
12:09
Speaker 1: such a slut in such a big way, a huge way.
12:11
Speaker 1: She used to do this thing where she would literally
12:12
Speaker 1: just rip the condom off of redhead. Seriously, I know redheads, right,
12:17
Speaker 1: And yeah, we talked about that too, And like, what
12:19
Speaker 1: was that movie season Surrounded and Share, which is of
12:23
Speaker 1: Eastwick yes, we're in a lot of material like this.
12:26
Speaker 1: There is like the blonde, the brunette in the Redhead,
12:29
Speaker 1: and I was thinking of like kind of counter examples
12:32
Speaker 1: because I was thinking about Sex in the City Samantha,
12:35
Speaker 1: and I'm like, she doesn't really seem to fit this trope,
12:38
Speaker 1: and then she has to temper though she does. So
12:42
Speaker 1: I feel like there's so double whammy because yeah, you
12:44
Speaker 1: have those characters that could be really fine, but then
12:47
Speaker 1: you also see as the childhood innocence. Weirdly enough, because
12:50
Speaker 1: Annie green Gables and Annie and people long Stocking were
12:54
Speaker 1: endearing young mischievous children and curious children, but not necessarily
12:59
Speaker 1: they were nothing sexual about them, So I think it's
13:02
Speaker 1: and they one did have a really fiery temper, the
13:05
Speaker 1: other two didn't. So it's kind of like, and I've
13:07
Speaker 1: seen that as those two trips with like you see
13:09
Speaker 1: it as young children, immature children, which can be bad
13:12
Speaker 1: for men. I'm sure we're gonna talk about that, but
13:14
Speaker 1: that kind of level too. Yeah, Yeah, it kind of
13:18
Speaker 1: goes back to what I was saying, where it feels
13:20
Speaker 1: like a choice, and the choice seems to be that
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Speaker 1: you are you've got fire in you, which I suppose
13:27
Speaker 1: makes sense with the color, but is kind of troublesome,
13:29
Speaker 1: problematic when that's all you see. But yeah, so. Meanwhile,
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Speaker 1: for dudes, the redhead trip usually means clownish, goofy, weak, ugly,
13:37
Speaker 1: and or awkward. Right, so, redhead Tom Robbins wrote in
13:41
Speaker 1: a n g Q essay quote, the harsh truth is
13:45
Speaker 1: most red haired men look like blondes who spoiled from
13:48
Speaker 1: lack of refrigeration. They look like brown haired men who've
13:51
Speaker 1: been composted. Yet that same pigment that on a man
13:54
Speaker 1: can resemble leaf mold or young yard rust a woman
13:57
Speaker 1: wears like a tiara of rubies. A nineteen seventy eight
14:03
Speaker 1: study into stereotypes around hair color found that men preferred blondes,
14:07
Speaker 1: while women preferred dark haired men and reported disliking redheads.
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Speaker 1: Here is a quote. Researchers used an interview approach to
14:15
Speaker 1: discover the cause of hostility towards redheads. Participants generally believed
14:19
Speaker 1: that redheads were known for their flaring tempers. Furthermore, other
14:22
Speaker 1: stereotypes of redheads included clown, weird, and wimpy men. Generally,
14:27
Speaker 1: people perceive individuals with brown hair as normal. Interestingly, people
14:31
Speaker 1: perceived brunette women as more competent and intelligent than blondes
14:35
Speaker 1: and redheads. Yeah, and I'm assuming the study was very
14:38
Speaker 1: white and obviously very heteronormative and h there are a
14:41
Speaker 1: lot of tones of discrimination involved when it comes to
14:44
Speaker 1: prejudices against Irish folks often associated with red hair. But
14:48
Speaker 1: that is a bigger conversation than the one we are
14:50
Speaker 1: having today. I just know. I read a bunch of
14:51
Speaker 1: stuff about that, and another study using the same photo
14:56
Speaker 1: of a woman but with different color hair, found that
14:59
Speaker 1: blondes would consist judged as having less intelligence and redheads
15:02
Speaker 1: consistently described as temperamental. Yes, and some have argued that
15:06
Speaker 1: the reason for this difference between the hyper sexualized, fiery,
15:10
Speaker 1: red headed woman and the emasculated redheaded man has to
15:13
Speaker 1: do with our societal fears around around both of those things,
15:17
Speaker 1: around women's sexuality and men being effeminine in any way,
15:22
Speaker 1: that it's a way of mothering whiteness and projecting onto them.
15:25
Speaker 1: Depending on where you are, the term ginger maybe used
15:28
Speaker 1: as an insult. Sometimes people call this gingerism, and there
15:31
Speaker 1: have been a lot of debates had around that also.
15:35
Speaker 1: That is outside the scope of this episode. But just
15:37
Speaker 1: to say that does exist. For the most part, redheads
15:41
Speaker 1: seemed to go through stages of relationships with their hair color,
15:44
Speaker 1: starting usually with feeling special and then feeling ridiculed, feeling
15:48
Speaker 1: sexualized or de sexualized, and then acceptance and kind of
15:52
Speaker 1: a love of of their hair. But we wanted to
15:55
Speaker 1: talk to a source. Um one of my very best friends,
15:58
Speaker 1: Katie also known as Redheaded Katie, and some of my
16:01
Speaker 1: circles that differentiate between the Katies in my life because
16:04
Speaker 1: I have known her for a very long time. I
16:07
Speaker 1: have several Katies in your life. I do have several
16:09
Speaker 1: Katies in my life, and it gets very confusing. And yeah,
16:12
Speaker 1: I have been with Katie for a long time as
16:17
Speaker 1: in terms of like friendships, and we've gone into a
16:19
Speaker 1: lot of like she's come to family reunions with me, Um,
16:22
Speaker 1: we've traveled together, and so I've seen a lot of
16:24
Speaker 1: this play out. But we wanted to talk to her.
16:27
Speaker 1: So here is a quick interview with Katie. Katie, it's
16:44
Speaker 1: so good to see you again, Addie. It's so good
16:47
Speaker 1: to see you. It's been so long. It has been
16:50
Speaker 1: it feels like it has been, yes, because you were
16:52
Speaker 1: on the show a while back to talk about pandemic dating,
16:56
Speaker 1: and we had a great conversation, and now we wanted
16:58
Speaker 1: to bring you back about your experience being a redhead
17:03
Speaker 1: and particularly redheaded woman, dear, because this was a topic
17:07
Speaker 1: that a listener requested and she had a lot of
17:09
Speaker 1: her own thoughts and not so great experiences perhaps that
17:14
Speaker 1: she shared with us, and I've been researching it and
17:17
Speaker 1: we thought we would ask you because you are a
17:21
Speaker 1: redheaded woman, I am yes, yes, And as I said
17:26
Speaker 1: earlier in this episode, that's often how I differentiate you,
17:29
Speaker 1: because I have a lot of Katie's in my life.
17:31
Speaker 1: I will call you redheaded Katie. So if you could
17:34
Speaker 1: just tell us how your experience has been, especially if
17:38
Speaker 1: it's changed over the years, of like how being redheaded
17:42
Speaker 1: impacted you as a child and then as you moved
17:44
Speaker 1: into adulthood, if there's been any changes at all, Well,
17:47
Speaker 1: it definitely affected me as a child, And when you
17:51
Speaker 1: told me you were doing a red headed episode, I
17:52
Speaker 1: was trying to think about this a lot. Like as
17:54
Speaker 1: a kid, I definitely felt defined by red hair as
18:00
Speaker 1: a child because it was the first thing people would
18:03
Speaker 1: say when they saw me. That's one of my earliest
18:05
Speaker 1: memories as people being like, oh, red hair, curly red hair. Oh,
18:09
Speaker 1: you know, and I kind of learned to associate that
18:13
Speaker 1: with myself, if that makes any sense. So when I
18:15
Speaker 1: picture myself in my head, it was just like a
18:17
Speaker 1: big ball of red hair, and like that was the
18:20
Speaker 1: thing kids tease me about growing up, and that was
18:24
Speaker 1: also the thing. It was just the first thing people noticed.
18:26
Speaker 1: So it's definitely how I defined myself for a very
18:29
Speaker 1: long time. And then, you know, becoming a teenager, I
18:34
Speaker 1: think it became more sexualized of you know, I got
18:39
Speaker 1: the question to do the carpet match the drapes? You know,
18:43
Speaker 1: got that question a lot, which was just horrifying back then,
18:46
Speaker 1: and now as an adult, I'd say it definitely I
18:50
Speaker 1: still get the stereotypes, you know, people assuming things that
18:56
Speaker 1: I have a temper, or that I'm why old in
19:00
Speaker 1: bed or so. Yeah, i'd say that it's definitely painted
19:05
Speaker 1: my experience throughout my entire life. Yeah. And I've known
19:10
Speaker 1: you for quite a while as we as we talked about,
19:13
Speaker 1: and I've seen these things and these comments people have
19:18
Speaker 1: given you, And that's something else that a lot of
19:22
Speaker 1: interviews and articles and listeners have written in about. It's
19:25
Speaker 1: kind of like people feeling really comfortable to make comments
19:30
Speaker 1: about your hair, assumptions about your hair, or touch your hair,
19:36
Speaker 1: or like telling you not to dyet or like asking
19:39
Speaker 1: you if you did diet if it's your natural hair. Absolutely,
19:43
Speaker 1: and I've had hair people refused to dye my hair.
19:46
Speaker 1: I feel like, really, yeah, we're not going to do it,
19:49
Speaker 1: just straight up refused, which is nice because it'll be like,
19:51
Speaker 1: it's such a pretty color, We're not going to press
19:53
Speaker 1: that up for you. And I appreciate that, But sometimes
19:56
Speaker 1: I'm just like, you know, dye my damn hair right, right,
20:01
Speaker 1: because that's like I can't imagine that happening in too
20:04
Speaker 1: many other cases. If you want to dye your hair
20:08
Speaker 1: somebody being like no, no, no, not because it was
20:11
Speaker 1: like me when I wanted to dye my hair like black,
20:14
Speaker 1: and they're like, you're gonna have to go through several
20:16
Speaker 1: steps if it's advice, like that would look terrible on you.
20:21
Speaker 1: I think at one point I wanted to diet like
20:23
Speaker 1: blue with white tips. You know, she might have saved
20:29
Speaker 1: me there. Yes, So you did mention some of the
20:33
Speaker 1: stereotypes that you've gotten of, like you know, feeling are
20:37
Speaker 1: people saying stuff like fiery and then people assuming you're
20:41
Speaker 1: wild in bed. When I was researching this, those are
20:44
Speaker 1: two the very first things that came up when Google
20:47
Speaker 1: was like did you mean this, and it was things
20:50
Speaker 1: like yeah, wire it had so angry or wire right,
20:56
Speaker 1: had so wild in bed? Or how to sleep at
21:01
Speaker 1: the right head, basically like conquests. Oh god, Yeah, I mean,
21:05
Speaker 1: is that something you've ever experienced, like feeling really sexualized
21:08
Speaker 1: or getting this unwanted sexual attention. Absolutely, especially as a
21:13
Speaker 1: teenager when I wasn't comfortable with my sexuality yet and
21:18
Speaker 1: I was still in that very vulnerable stage. That's when
21:21
Speaker 1: I feel like I was sexualized most, which is in
21:25
Speaker 1: retrospect really disgusting. Um, but yeah, that's when people felt,
21:32
Speaker 1: I guess most open to just ask me any type
21:36
Speaker 1: of question or assume anything. But yeah, I mean I
21:39
Speaker 1: get that all the time, the whole until you have
21:42
Speaker 1: a temper, you know, and right are you wild? And
21:46
Speaker 1: I'm just like, man, I'm a person, I don't know,
21:51
Speaker 1: but yeah, I definitely have felt I mean, even now
21:55
Speaker 1: being on tender and Bumble, It's still the thing that
22:00
Speaker 1: I get the most comments on is oh, I love
22:01
Speaker 1: your red hair. I love your red hair, and I
22:05
Speaker 1: don't mind that, Like I don't want to sound spoiled
22:09
Speaker 1: or like I don't like those compliments, because I definitely do.
22:13
Speaker 1: It's just at some point it's felt like my hair
22:17
Speaker 1: has become the focal point of my entire being, you
22:20
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Right, going back to that defining you,
22:24
Speaker 1: but that especially, I mean I relate to that, especially
22:27
Speaker 1: as a child, because that was the thing people always
22:31
Speaker 1: called out. So I kind of just I kind of
22:34
Speaker 1: just became red hair. Like I often think about who
22:36
Speaker 1: would I be without it? I think I would be
22:39
Speaker 1: completely different. I really do. Yeah, that's interesting because especially
22:45
Speaker 1: like you were talking about, and I think a lot
22:46
Speaker 1: of people when I was researching this talked about something
22:49
Speaker 1: similar when they were a child, especially of getting like
22:52
Speaker 1: teased by kids but being told by adults like oh
22:56
Speaker 1: it's so beautiful. Yeah. Absolutely, kids are mean kids. They
23:01
Speaker 1: called they called me big fat, freckle faced in first
23:04
Speaker 1: grade terrible. I remember one of my quote unquote friends
23:10
Speaker 1: got the whole class to chant it at me, and
23:11
Speaker 1: I started crying. That's awful. I wish I had been there,
23:18
Speaker 1: even though I don't think we were friends. You probably,
23:25
Speaker 1: but I mean, kids can be cruel. So yeah, and
23:29
Speaker 1: then now now I think I feel it more as
23:33
Speaker 1: a conquest. I also definitely feel like this weird expectation
23:38
Speaker 1: of I have to live up to this idea that
23:40
Speaker 1: I'm wild in bed, and it's like I'm not a
23:43
Speaker 1: cold fish. But what if what if I don't meet
23:47
Speaker 1: those expectations, like I'm going up against this super version
23:52
Speaker 1: of myself? Mm hmmm mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a
23:57
Speaker 1: good point. And it's especially if if I don't. I
24:02
Speaker 1: don't have like any numbers or anything to back this up.
24:04
Speaker 1: But of people saying, you know, I feel fetishized or
24:07
Speaker 1: it does become like it's just a conquest. Where do
24:09
Speaker 1: you just just want to mark this off? Okay, I've
24:13
Speaker 1: had sex with the wild Redhead and that's not That
24:18
Speaker 1: is a lot of pressure. That's not a great way
24:19
Speaker 1: to feel. It's really not great. I have kind of
24:24
Speaker 1: a random question for you. Have you have you seen
24:29
Speaker 1: or ever encountered the whole South Park episode about Ginger Vitus. Yeah,
24:37
Speaker 1: it's been a long time, but yeah I remember that one. Yeah,
24:41
Speaker 1: because a lot of people wrote in about how that
24:43
Speaker 1: impacted them as a kid, like people shouting, you know,
24:46
Speaker 1: you have no soul or oh yeah, and I still
24:51
Speaker 1: get that. I still get that like a pickup line
24:54
Speaker 1: of well, are you gonna take my soul? Or I know,
24:58
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, man, come on, give me something
25:01
Speaker 1: better to work with. But yeah, that's definitely And I
25:06
Speaker 1: think as a kid, it was probably worse because I
25:08
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to watch South Park, so I didn't even
25:11
Speaker 1: I didn't know what it was referencing or anything. It
25:14
Speaker 1: was just suddenly people were saying that to me, and
25:18
Speaker 1: you know, like each freckle on my body is a
25:20
Speaker 1: soul that I've stolen. And yeah, and that's That's another
25:28
Speaker 1: thing I was thinking about, is I feel like in
25:31
Speaker 1: our media there's a dichotomy of the sexy, fiery redhead
25:36
Speaker 1: who's usually a woman or a lady's yeah, the very
25:41
Speaker 1: awkward clown who is the dude who's like de sexualized
25:46
Speaker 1: on the opposite end. Yes, And then it's odd how
25:52
Speaker 1: common it is, because I feel like when you in
25:54
Speaker 1: our entertainment, at least, when you make someone redheaded, it
25:56
Speaker 1: is a choice, like you are communicating, oh, she is fery,
26:01
Speaker 1: or with the dude, oh he's funny and has trouble,
26:04
Speaker 1: like awkward getting I'm going to add one more layer
26:10
Speaker 1: to that and say, there are a lot of redheaded
26:12
Speaker 1: villains too, a lot of redheaded stepchildren. I mean, I
26:19
Speaker 1: think of Disney movies, the bad character is always the
26:22
Speaker 1: red head. Yeah, the evil character, the annoying, like mean
26:28
Speaker 1: bully character. Think about it. There's a lot there is.
26:34
Speaker 1: I was also thinking about there's a lot of if
26:37
Speaker 1: you just think about comics, there's a lot of like
26:41
Speaker 1: redhead comics superheroes. For like the small percentage of redheads
26:48
Speaker 1: that they were in the population, they were very represented,
26:52
Speaker 1: and they have great bodies as well. What is that about?
26:55
Speaker 1: Of course, of course they do. But did that when
27:00
Speaker 1: it when you're growing up, and like even now, when
27:02
Speaker 1: you see somebody has red hair, like man or woman,
27:05
Speaker 1: do you have kind of like any knee jerk reactions
27:08
Speaker 1: or thoughts. I mean, well, this is my personal joke,
27:13
Speaker 1: but whenever I see another redhead, I I say to myself,
27:15
Speaker 1: I gotta fight him. I gotta I gotta fight him.
27:18
Speaker 1: I gotta fight that, right, especially if it's a lady,
27:20
Speaker 1: I gotta fighter No, I don't really, but yeah, it
27:24
Speaker 1: is kind of indeed jerk reaction of just oh, it's
27:27
Speaker 1: terrible but my immediate inclination is to be like another redhead,
27:33
Speaker 1: and that's terrible. I don't really know why. Um, I
27:38
Speaker 1: guess because you know, you get so used to being
27:42
Speaker 1: singled out for it that you see another one and
27:44
Speaker 1: it's like a weird competition almost ginger boys. And I'm
28:02
Speaker 1: allowed to say ginger because I am a redhead. Because
28:06
Speaker 1: my brother is a redhead, I think, and I grew
28:08
Speaker 1: up with him, and because we had a very contentious relationship,
28:11
Speaker 1: I tend to not be attracted to redheaded men, and
28:15
Speaker 1: that I made a vow with myself a long time
28:17
Speaker 1: ago that I would never marry or procreate with a
28:21
Speaker 1: red headed man, which, knock on wood, everything I've said
28:24
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna do, I've done, so it could very
28:26
Speaker 1: well happen. But I definitely feel like a knee jerk.
28:33
Speaker 1: I just no, just there's nothing there when I see
28:38
Speaker 1: a redheaded guy, right, And that is something else I
28:42
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to wrap up this whole conversation with
28:45
Speaker 1: because you also have curly hair, yes, and I have.
28:53
Speaker 1: You know, it's not it's not un normal. Normal is
28:57
Speaker 1: not a word of it, but I'm using it to
29:01
Speaker 1: I want to like change your hair, are are do
29:03
Speaker 1: different things with your hair. I think a lot of
29:05
Speaker 1: us go through that stage where I wanted curly hair.
29:07
Speaker 1: At one point, I wanted to red hair, at one point,
29:09
Speaker 1: I wanted to dye my hair all kinds of colors um.
29:12
Speaker 1: And I've seen that in you as well, and a
29:14
Speaker 1: lot of people I've I've researched about, which sounds so
29:17
Speaker 1: weird because you're my friend and I keep talking about
29:18
Speaker 1: all this research I've done, But I have said that
29:21
Speaker 1: they kind of went through stages of, you know, being
29:25
Speaker 1: the kid who had this sort of being defined by it,
29:29
Speaker 1: and then getting older and if you're a woman, being
29:31
Speaker 1: sexualized by it, and then because of that, like wanting
29:35
Speaker 1: to change your hair for some reason or feeling like
29:38
Speaker 1: some kind of resentment around it, and then coming around
29:41
Speaker 1: to you know, accepting it. And I don't know if
29:45
Speaker 1: you've had a similar journey. I just know that, like recently,
29:48
Speaker 1: you've gone with curly hair, and I'm just curious if
29:53
Speaker 1: any of that resonates with you, if you've had a
29:55
Speaker 1: similar kind of experience. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean for
29:59
Speaker 1: a long time, especially i'd probably say high school, I
30:03
Speaker 1: really hated my hair and I hated its curliness. I
30:06
Speaker 1: hated it's freeziness. But I didn't know how to style it,
30:09
Speaker 1: and my mom didn't know how to style it, so
30:11
Speaker 1: I just always put it up in this really awkward
30:12
Speaker 1: ponytail with my really awkward glasses. Like it was a
30:16
Speaker 1: whole nerdy food going on school. Quite the pair. But yeah,
30:27
Speaker 1: I definitely I straightened my hair all the time. I
30:32
Speaker 1: straightened it every day if I could. I hated the
30:36
Speaker 1: curl and it took a long I mean it was
30:40
Speaker 1: only recently. It was only really quarantine is when I
30:44
Speaker 1: made the decision, Okay, I am not going to straighten
30:46
Speaker 1: my hair anymore, because you know, then it was the
30:50
Speaker 1: ugly phase was easier to hide because we were all inside.
30:54
Speaker 1: But it definitely went through an adjustment ugly phase for sure.
30:57
Speaker 1: But yeah, I definitely had to have like a reckoning
31:01
Speaker 1: with my hair and just come to terms with it
31:04
Speaker 1: being curly in red and embrace it a little bit.
31:07
Speaker 1: And I think I have Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's
31:13
Speaker 1: only taken thirty two years, you know, to like my hair.
31:18
Speaker 1: But it kind of sucks, you know, because still I
31:20
Speaker 1: feel so defined by my hair that if it doesn't
31:24
Speaker 1: look good and I mean this is everyone. I'm not
31:28
Speaker 1: the only one who's like, if my hair doesn't look good,
31:30
Speaker 1: look great, you know. But there's definitely a lot, a
31:34
Speaker 1: lot of confidence and vanity and self worth tied into
31:40
Speaker 1: my hair. Yeah, maybe more so than others. I can't
31:43
Speaker 1: say that for sure, but maybe. Yeah. I mean that
31:46
Speaker 1: makes sense to me because if if it is, you're
31:49
Speaker 1: defining trait in a lot of ways of when people
31:52
Speaker 1: see you, that's what they comment on, then it does
31:55
Speaker 1: feel like a really a big attention getter. Yeah. Yeah,
32:00
Speaker 1: it's just is it a bad thing? Is that a
32:02
Speaker 1: bad thing to have your hair be? You're defining quality?
32:05
Speaker 1: Like I feel like if you really go deep down
32:09
Speaker 1: into it, yes, I would say so too. I mean
32:15
Speaker 1: a lot of people were saying that, like and kind
32:17
Speaker 1: of what you said earlier. You know, I'm just a person.
32:20
Speaker 1: We have these stereotypes about all kinds of hair colors,
32:22
Speaker 1: like whether it's the dumb blonde stereotype or fornets. It's
32:27
Speaker 1: usually like frudes but competent um. And there's you know,
32:32
Speaker 1: varying levels of harmfulness at these stereotypes. But at the
32:34
Speaker 1: end of the day, there's still stereotypes, And like we
32:37
Speaker 1: are people, and hair color doesn't really right right. I
32:44
Speaker 1: don't think redheads are actually angrier, and I don't think
32:48
Speaker 1: they're actually more wild. And then we need to sell
32:53
Speaker 1: Google that we need to get Google in the case. Ye,
32:57
Speaker 1: and let me tell you how to sleep with the redhead.
32:59
Speaker 1: I can tell you have a good sense of humor,
33:02
Speaker 1: make some jokes, you know, don't do any of the
33:05
Speaker 1: crappy pickup lines, and whatever you do, don't ask about
33:09
Speaker 1: the carpet. And if you're going to say anything, just
33:13
Speaker 1: just say you like the hair. Don't make it a
33:16
Speaker 1: big thing. I think that's excellent advice. And I think
33:21
Speaker 1: I think you could probably put that advice to everyone,
33:25
Speaker 1: like I can't. It's wild to me that people feel
33:28
Speaker 1: comfortable asking about that, Like why would you ask about
33:30
Speaker 1: someone's pubic air? I don't know. I know, especially in
33:34
Speaker 1: high school when I was like, you know, horrified by
33:37
Speaker 1: body hair and I didn't know what to do with it,
33:40
Speaker 1: and then some guy coming up to me and ask
33:43
Speaker 1: me that. I was just like like what do I
33:46
Speaker 1: say here? Conversation killing? And now now I'm just like
33:52
Speaker 1: I just look at him, like really, how old are you?
33:56
Speaker 1: How old are you? And what am I doing here?
33:58
Speaker 1: And how do I get out of this? Goodbye? Goodbye
34:04
Speaker 1: sor yeah, I mean there's just a lot to unpack
34:09
Speaker 1: unpacked with that, because I can see how that would
34:12
Speaker 1: turn into for me a kind of a negative association
34:16
Speaker 1: and feeling this is getting me attention I don't want
34:19
Speaker 1: and having that turn inwards. And I did go through
34:23
Speaker 1: that stage too, for sure, internalized it and tried to
34:29
Speaker 1: make myself smaller or you know, more mousey to not
34:33
Speaker 1: get that kind of attention, kind of a combat which
34:37
Speaker 1: that was. That was the only attention back then I
34:40
Speaker 1: was getting because I was so awkward and nerdy that
34:46
Speaker 1: the only like sexualized attention I was getting was people
34:50
Speaker 1: asking about the carpet and the drapes, always that terminology
34:55
Speaker 1: as well, always, So it was just very I don't know.
35:00
Speaker 1: It made me feel very torn and I probably had
35:03
Speaker 1: to work through some weird issues because of that, for sure.
35:08
Speaker 1: For sure. Well, I was gonna ask, do you have
35:13
Speaker 1: a favorite, uh like fictional character that has red hair? Oh? Um,
35:21
Speaker 1: of course I'm blanking on every fictional character now, I'm
35:27
Speaker 1: sure I do. I there's name some red headed characters
35:31
Speaker 1: for me. All I can think of is Blossom from
35:33
Speaker 1: the Powerpuff Girls, and she was not my favorite power
35:35
Speaker 1: puff girl. Who is your favorite power puff Girl? I
35:38
Speaker 1: really liked Bubbles, Okay, Buttercup was okay, Like I like
35:46
Speaker 1: that she was tough, But I guess I liked Bubbles.
35:50
Speaker 1: I mean, Blossom was just so she was kind of bossy. Yeah,
35:55
Speaker 1: well that's an interesting thing too, is I feel like
35:57
Speaker 1: I'm in a lot of media we consume there's always
36:00
Speaker 1: like the blonde, the brunette, the redheads, sometimes the personal
36:06
Speaker 1: black hair, and they do have kind of these stereotypes
36:10
Speaker 1: that we associate with I find very funny. But Bubbles
36:14
Speaker 1: is kind of a great example of like the ditzy blond.
36:17
Speaker 1: But I mean, I love Bob, but that's just another
36:20
Speaker 1: example of that. Oh it even works more into the stereotype,
36:25
Speaker 1: doesn't And Buttercup is really tough with her black hair.
36:33
Speaker 1: Examples of redheads being kind of the bossy of that
36:39
Speaker 1: like hair dynamic, because I was thinking of some that
36:42
Speaker 1: don't necessarily fit the trope, but they almost always have
36:45
Speaker 1: like a temperament, like a temperamental or fiery or something
36:51
Speaker 1: something defined by that quality for sure. Yes, yes, I
36:55
Speaker 1: really can't think of any other redheads. This is driving
36:57
Speaker 1: me crazy. Well I could, I can list a fee.
37:00
Speaker 1: But you like to eat a green Gables going up?
37:02
Speaker 1: Didn't you anna green Gables? I My mom read that
37:06
Speaker 1: to me growing up. So it's like a kind of
37:08
Speaker 1: a nostalgia thing. But I was never like I never
37:13
Speaker 1: really related to her or felt a kin chip with Anne. Unfortunately,
37:19
Speaker 1: she was very dreamy. She like she was such a dreamer.
37:23
Speaker 1: I don't know, child, how dare you? Well, there's a
37:32
Speaker 1: bunch of like comic book characters, as I said, you
37:35
Speaker 1: got your casp characters in Harry Potter. Uh, a bunch
37:40
Speaker 1: of witches. A bunch of witches have red hair. That's
37:42
Speaker 1: another trope, the red hair. Um, that one makes sense
37:48
Speaker 1: to me. It seems about right. Well, that's okay. I
37:54
Speaker 1: was just checking if there was one that you were like, ah, this,
37:58
Speaker 1: this character. Didn't Kim Possible have red hair? I never
38:03
Speaker 1: watched Kim Possible. But this is going off the rails.
38:09
Speaker 1: She was supposed to be kind of bad, so maybe
38:11
Speaker 1: her like that. How about I Got you? I Got
38:15
Speaker 1: you Sortia from Willow movie. That's a good one. That's
38:22
Speaker 1: a good one. Yeah, yeah, it was awesome. Maybe like
38:29
Speaker 1: two people that will get that. Yeah, two people will
38:34
Speaker 1: get that one. And then you named a character I'm
38:36
Speaker 1: a show you've never seen, but all right, cool, I'm
38:39
Speaker 1: great at this. Yes. Now. The thing is is I
38:42
Speaker 1: looked up before because looking up costumes for Dragon Con,
38:46
Speaker 1: I just googled like redheaded characters and there there's like
38:51
Speaker 1: a whole list. What's the one I always get Jessica Rabbit. Yeah,
38:55
Speaker 1: I always get Jessica Rabbit. Every single guy I've ever
38:58
Speaker 1: talked to Jessica Rabbit when you ask for costume suggestions, yes,
39:05
Speaker 1: or just talking about Halloween or anything of that sort.
39:10
Speaker 1: Will you be just a rabbit? Were you ever just
39:12
Speaker 1: a rabbit? Yeah? And she's super sexualized for she was
39:19
Speaker 1: an awakening for a lot of people. I think that
39:23
Speaker 1: movie terrified me, so I haven't seen it since. But
39:25
Speaker 1: oh it's horrifying. One of the most horrifying movies. It's
39:29
Speaker 1: up there with Watership Down. I'm never going to watch again.
39:32
Speaker 1: That's also a huge That is a cartoon, British cartoon
39:37
Speaker 1: from the seventies listeners and it is terrifying, horrifying. Nine
39:41
Speaker 1: years but yes, well that's pretty telling to I do
39:47
Speaker 1: have one more thing I want to say that kind
39:50
Speaker 1: of pain. In my experience as a redhead is dad
39:54
Speaker 1: did not do me any of My dad's a redhead
39:56
Speaker 1: as well, and he did not do any favors and
39:58
Speaker 1: telling me when I was very very young, and you
40:00
Speaker 1: know this, I've told you this, he told me that
40:03
Speaker 1: all redheads were aliens, are part alien. And I believed
40:09
Speaker 1: that for an embarrassing amount of time because he was like,
40:15
Speaker 1: redheads are weird, Katie, We're a weird but and I
40:21
Speaker 1: really like it. Definitely painted how I looked at other
40:26
Speaker 1: redheads too. I still have a little bit of ingrained
40:30
Speaker 1: in me of when I see other people being like,
40:33
Speaker 1: I know you're weird, I know you're weird. Is in
40:37
Speaker 1: there alien or something? He probably didn't do me any
40:41
Speaker 1: favors with that. Yeah, but here we are here, We
40:45
Speaker 1: are here. We are on a podcast working through issues. Yep,
40:50
Speaker 1: like we do free therapy, man, free therapy. That's what
40:53
Speaker 1: I'm here for. That's what we're all here for. That's
40:56
Speaker 1: why I'm your friend. The only reason for well perfect,
41:00
Speaker 1: We're not in the fame or you seeing each other
41:03
Speaker 1: then like good friends do. Yes, Well, thank you so
41:08
Speaker 1: much for for dropping by. You're welcome anytime. No, thank
41:12
Speaker 1: you for having me. I can't wait to see you again.
41:15
Speaker 1: Yeah me, me too. Annie is always good talking to you.
41:19
Speaker 1: So that brings us to the end of our interview
41:21
Speaker 1: portion of this show. Um, we would love to hear
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Speaker 1: from any any listeners who have experiences with red hair
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Speaker 1: or any hair color at all. Really, we always hearing
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Speaker 1: from you. You can email us at stuff Media, mom
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Speaker 1: Stuff at i heeart media dot com, and find us
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Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at
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Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always to our
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Speaker 1: super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for
41:46
Speaker 1: listening Stuff I Never Told You his production, but I
41:48
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcast from I Heart Radio, visit
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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or where you
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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. Well mo