Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "The Life of a Dominatrix" with Eva Oh

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"The Life of a Dominatrix" with Eva Oh · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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  Get a human's welcome to safe space for dangerous ideas and what idea could be more dangerous,
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  more serious, insulting, more adhesive to the dignity and propriety of we good upstanding
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  citizens than the notion that many of us are walking around with a deep inner desire
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  curiosity for some deviant fetish to be mistreated or to mistreat others in the pursuit of erotic
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  lust. This is the theory upon which I suppose all of today's guests work and life is based.
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  She is one of the world's leading dominatrixes she would blush at my describing her that way
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  because she thinks she's just doing her thing, but when you're charging tens of thousands of
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  dollars a day, I think you can admit that you have reached a level of in an industry that is
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  able to touch people in certain ways. Metaphorically, you don't be dirty. I didn't mean touching in that way.
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  I meant you're touching people's buttons. You're pushing there. Oh, I think that's even getting
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  worse, aren't I? One of them I stopped talking about touching parts of people that may resemble
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  buttons and get back to the point, which is Eva O spends her life in relation to other people
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  in a way that I can only barely glimpse and comprehend. I mean, I cannot imagine being the type of
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  who spends my time getting so raw and intimate with people and taking them into such weird places.
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  And that's such a funny thing for me to say because in some ways my job and Eva raises this
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  analogy during our chat is about exploring interesting avenues in other people's worlds.
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  Just not those particular worlds. Until now, Eva is fascinating. I'm not going to talk about it
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  anymore, except to say enjoy this conversation between me and a very, very, very successful
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  dominatrix who goes by the name of Eva.
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  So what do you do exactly? How do you write on a customs form when you have to enter a country
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  about what your occupation is? Manufacturing. Manufacturing. And what do you tell people at a party
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  when they're open enough to understand roughly what you do, but you don't want to go into too much
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  detail? What makes you think I go to parties? All right, this is existing next to it on the plane
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  who seems kind of open. Oh, if who seems kind of open, I don't know, playing something different,
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  but if let's say I go to this figurative party, I'm happy telling people straight away that I work
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  as a dominatrix. Yeah, pretty straightforward. It's easier this way. Yeah, right. From what's
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  their follow-up question? If I've already sensed that they're going to be okay with it, it's usually
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  a lot of curiosity. Oh, what's that like? What are the people that you see like? What do you do with
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  them? Those are probably the main ones. Yeah. And is specifying dominatrix different from saying
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  that you're a sex worker? Are you a sex worker? I'm a sex worker. Do I say it differently? I think
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  if I was still escorting and working in the different establishments, then I would probably use
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  the umbrella term more, but it's just being more specific. Right. So how has your career changed?
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  So it started off in fetish as a dominatrix working at a brothel in Redfern, Sydney called Salon
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  Kitties, which has closed. And at the same time, I was exposed to a lot of the wonderful people who
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  were working there and their other jobs, which included working at brothels, working at massage
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  parlors, working as escorts. And I sort of took their crumbs and ran with it and tried out
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  straight work. We kind of differentiated that way straight versus fetish. I tried that out for a
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  year, but really, it was very physically taxing from me and comparison to what is, I guess,
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  more mentally taxing in the domination side of things. And so I made a choice. What was physically
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  taxing about conventional sex work? The sex. I guess I was more. So when you're doing escorting,
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  you have something called GFE, girlfriend experience versus PSC, porn star experience.
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  And I tend to personally only really know how to do PSC even in my personal life. And so I just
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  kind of gunned it, went for it. And that was my style of working. I couldn't really do the, I guess,
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  the more gentle, what is expected of the GFE aspect of things. And so I physically just got tired.
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  Right. And so I assume you ended up with clients who were very into the porn star experience,
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  rather than the girlfriend experience as well, would probably compounded the difficulty.
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  I probably just also hit it all a little bit too much all at once because I was with an agency,
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  and I worked in stilettos in Sydney, which is this like massive brothel with like 20, 30, maybe
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  sometimes 50 girls on shift. And it was just like, I do this whenever the agency would call me,
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  I'd turn up and then I'd go into like a night shift at stilettos and then I'd try out the massage
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  work. And so I guess if I think back on it, maybe it was just compounded a little bit too much on
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  top of each other. Yeah. Just make people a picture of what this life is like as a professional
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  working life because people might not be aware that sex work is legal in New South Wales. So it's not
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  like you're in some city place that's run by the mafia or something. This is, I mean, does this
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  feel like a legitimate business just as if you were going to work as a dancer or something?
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  Well, not even a dancer. I think if you're working in retail, it's probably, you know, that I turn
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  up to stilettos or to, you know, these brothels and they have a little bit of address policy and
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  then they say that you're going to need to do three shifts, eight hours. You can choose your shifts,
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  what's your ABN number? You know, it's, it's pretty, it's just your business. That's your
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  business. I'm glad that pay the goods and services to the government on your sex work.
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  This is the right. This is how you'll, this is a system of picking up the money and returning it.
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  We're going to have, you know, there's, there's all of these systems procedures,
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  OHN as standards in place because it's a decriminalized space in New South Wales, Sydney,
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  Australia. And so there's just, it's like going to any work.
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  And are you working on side?
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  Are you talking about back then or now?
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  Yeah, back then. So when in the context of this place?
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  The brothels. Yeah. So I was working in brothels and in every now and then you'd get an
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  outcall to hotels mostly. Maybe if they're really good with the agency, their house,
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  but for the most part, hours spent because it was like required shifts. I was probably inside
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  establishments such as Salon Kiddys and the brothel that I was in as well.
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  And people have made bookings or are there, are there walkins off the street?
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  A combination of both when your new walk-ins is definitely the thing they get to just see the new
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  person, to chat a little bit. And then when you start to have a little bit of a following,
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  it's, it's pretty much all bookings.
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  And they're asked to see you again and again.
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  Because there's a certain rapport that they've identified with because, yeah, that's probably
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  mostly the reason.
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  And what was your attitude towards walk-ins? Did you like them? What was the experience of
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  sort of seeing someone who you've never seen before and feeling like they're making a judgment
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  about you and then going into this intimate experience? I'm making a judgment about them.
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  All spare. If I didn't want to see them, I wouldn't have to. There's a receptionist there.
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  She'll just say, I'm sorry, she's just not available anymore. And that's that.
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  Right, I see. So if you see someone, whenever we meet anyone, we're making a judgment.
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  You know, what's the difference to me?
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  No. Well, the difference would be if you were in a context in which you weren't able to back out
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  after you saw them and didn't like them. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's not an option.
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  Yeah. So you can or you can't?
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  Of course, you can back out. Yeah. Essentially you're an independent entity. You know,
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  you're a sole trader and the house is providing you these services and you're giving them a cut
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  to provide these services for you, which is their receptionist, which is the facility,
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  which is security. And so they're serving you also. It's a mutually beneficial thing. And if I
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  don't want to see somebody, they're not going to make my life difficult because it's not
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  good for anybody. So of course. And so what would the what would a person? I mean,
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  what would be a tell for you that this is someone whom maybe you don't want to proceed with?
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  I think it's so different from person to person. What made me see no before? I haven't said no
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  actually in so many in too many instances. When I felt inexperienced when it comes to fetish,
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  there's a lot of different technical skills that are necessary. If I felt like I'm not going
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  to be able to deliver, this is just not my thing. I would recommend this person. That's probably
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  more likely to happen than I get that vibe or something. Yeah. And you were always into fetish from
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  the beginning? No, I didn't even know about it until I walked through the doors. So what's
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  been you in that team gets you very far sometimes. So many, many years ago, maybe 15 over years ago,
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  a partner of mine was I was just talking about the contents of the day ahead of us and what I
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  needed from it and from him within it. And he just jokingly said to me, oh, you'd make a great
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  dominatrix. It was kind of like I dig at how assertive I was being, I think. I didn't really have
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  an idea of what that image was. I just maybe saw it in a movie. But when I got back to Australia
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  and I started this agency job and it really didn't sit with me very well. And I thought, all right,
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  what am I going to do? I'm just going to dig through my mind. There's this little bit of information.
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  Let me just throw it into Google. And the first thing that came up, I think it was even like a Google
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  ad was this BDSM establishment. And it was we are looking for mistresses to train. And I just called
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  them made an appointment to get an interview. And that was it. Yeah. How does the training begin?
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  It begins at the interview. It was already an enlightening interview. It was the two people who
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  owned it. Headmaster Samantha and her husband David. And they were already asking me questions like
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  have you done sex work before? And I'm like, this is sex work. So,
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  do you do full service? What is full service? It's like, all right, just start. Just start.
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  And if you're not going to work out, we'll know within two weeks. And so I just started.
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  And the training was that you shadowed people. Full service is to have penetrative sex with somebody.
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  Yeah. That's so you can do it. You can be a dominatrix without that.
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  I would say the majority of sessions don't include it at all.
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  At all. Yeah. There's just so much going on that it's almost an afterthought.
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  And what worlds are included in that innocent phrase? There's so much going on.
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  Yeah. That's a Pandora's box to open. So what is going on?
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  I like the box. The box is fun. A lot of things that entertain me endlessly in a way that I
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  probably won't be able to turn away from. So things in the physicality like bondage, like
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  anal play, and like golden showers, like protocol, telling people to do certain things crawl in
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  a certain way across a room. But psychologically, things like understanding people's vulnerabilities
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  and how they want to be toyed with in those particular ways, how they want those vulnerabilities
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  to be poked upon. How you could do that. How you can create worlds for them and power struggles
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  of dominance and submission to entertain ourselves and fulfill fantasies. So there's a few things
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  that are possible. And so what's the general template if you can generalize of the fantasy of
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  somebody who's coming to a dominatrix? So it's going to be different if you're going to come to
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  somebody who is in a perceived position of power, dominatrix mistress as opposed to if you're
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  just going to like a fetish worker because I think you're looking for somebody who is in a powerful
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  position over you. So that is going to initiate the session that's going to show you what you need
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  to do. That's going to tell you that's going to be explicit in terms of what you need to
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  deliver and tell you exactly how. I think there's an investment in the power dynamic when somebody
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  seeks a dominatrix. And then the things that can come from there are their specific kings and
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  fetishes that are coming from who knows where. They just have a particular predilection for
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  wanting to be next to a high heeled shoe and to be told to kiss it. You know, it could be really
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  anything in the realm of not widely socially acceptable interests. And I wanting
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  to be degraded? Sometimes, not always, sometimes. Although I would say humiliation is probably
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  what a lot of people tend to gravitate towards or to request, but that means such different things
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  to so many different people like how to get there can look very different, but that feeling of
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  discomfort and feeling smaller than maybe the world says you need to be or that you're telling
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  yourself, I think is that little moment is probably what a lot of people do gravitate towards.
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  Right. And is there the reverse? Like what's the opposite of a dominatrix for? I mean, the person
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  who's coming in who wants the reverse power play, who wants to be the person who's in a position
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  of humiliator? Yeah. So there's definitely services for these as well. So you're normally looking
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  for a submissive insert identity here. Yeah. So it's just, yeah, you're looking for a submissive
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  provider. That's never a pale to you? I definitely saw some people doing it in the BTS
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  establishment where they were also doing both sides of the power play. I was open to it at the
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  beginning, but I found it a bit comical. They would ask me to do certain things in a certain frame
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  of mind and or with a certain tone. And I'd just like, I'd find it amusing rather than something
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  that I would want to obey or listen to. That's funny, but I had never heard the tone of voice
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  that worked for me yet, I guess. Right. Right. And you don't find it amusing to do the reverse,
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  to be the dominatrix. I definitely find it a bit cap sometimes. You know, when I say something,
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  I laugh at myself all the times because it sounds fairly ridiculous, but it's also a thrill.
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  Yeah, to say something and see it executed. Oh, yes, themself, them me and everything that's
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  happening. Does that ever show to the illusion for them? I mean, they want you to be this powerful
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  dominatrix. And you acknowledge the absurdity of what's happening and that takes them out at the
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  moment. Well, it's my moment. I don't care if it doesn't work for them, they can find it.
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  Yeah. And it doesn't take the power away. What is wrong with joy? You know, I'm still in that
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  position of who I am just because I feel joy. It doesn't take away from that position, not to me.
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  Right. Right. Yeah, but there's a difference between joy and sort of acknowledging the inherent
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  absurdity of what the two of you're doing with each other, isn't that? I mean, but such is life.
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  You can laugh at life and the absurdity of it at any time. Does it take away from the potential
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  magic or difficulty or challenge? No, it's just a part of it to me. Yeah. No, I guess not. I mean,
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  maybe I have a cliche of what your clients are like that maybe they're looking for. I assume that
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  they're looking for something that's honest. I guess different clients are going to gravitate
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  towards different providers and how honest you want them to be about the scenario is maybe just
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  how you're going to choose and how you're going to rebook or not rebook for the people who I
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  tend to see over and over again. I guess they are happy with the color and the different layers
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  that can be part of an experience perhaps. I'm not sure. Yeah. So how did you grow out of the brothel?
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  No, I got exhausted. That was the primarily tiring place because I was able to be pretty much
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  fully booked the whole shift, which means you see if one person an hour and you're working for
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  eight and maybe you'll push into 10 hours because you're on a streak. That's like 10 people.
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  10 people with the attitude where I don't really want to be a girlfriend and pander to that.
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  It's tiring. Yeah. Just like snapping it out for 10 hours. It's fun, but it's exhausting.
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  Yeah, I can imagine. And was there a way of dialing back the hours there or you just felt like
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  that was not the place for you anymore? What happened? What happened? I think that I started
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  touring and it's also just a matter of seeing how the profits are working. I think that my
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  domination side of things was just shaking off financially and I saw that it required less
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  exhaustion in a way. So I just went with that more sustainable.
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  And was there a point at which you thought, wow, this is actually, I mean, this is becoming
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  not just a thing that I'm maybe doing temporarily to learn the ropes and learn some money.
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  I'm actually really good at this and I'm going to be in the top echelon of this field.
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  To think I'm really good at this, have I thought about that? I only really started to think that
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  when I've worked with people recently, like in the last two years, I've been doing this for maybe
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  11 years now. And I never really saw myself in relevance to others until I started working with
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  them and thinking, oh, actually, I'm pretty quick. I'm pretty good at this. I'm pretty shit at that.
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  So you start to get an understanding. Am I in an upper echelon? I don't know. I think that for
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  some reason, you know, like interviews like this, they come my way and they make me like out there
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  and so people have an idea that I may be in an upper echelon, but who knows? I'm sure there's a lot
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  of people who are very quietly doing brilliant things in most of the deepening corners of the world.
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  Speaking of very quietly, the clients who you normally have now, who are loyal clients,
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  are these like, what's, is there an architect? Who are they?
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  So because of the price point, it's become older, rich, white men. But at the beginning,
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  when it was like 75 for half an hour foot worship session, it was really everybody.
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  So now it's only skewed because the world is financially skewed. So what do you charge?
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  Can I ask? Well, I don't really do hours anymore, but if you broke that down, it'd be about
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  a thousand USD an hour. Right. And you travel around to these people, do they tend to be married
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  and they're doing this on the side? Do they tend to be single? Is it an even split?
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  The ones who are able to dedicate the most time are usually divorced.
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  Yeah. The ones who are married are long time loyal, but they're not able to spend that much time
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  clearly. They have other priorities. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Do you have any moral
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  qualms about doing it with married men? It's something that I think about and that I have.
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  I feel like marriage is an interesting institution in itself that I have some questions about
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  that they've chosen to step into that is their choice that they choose not to communicate
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  this side of themselves and to include it in their relationships. It's their choice and I'm in
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  a segment that is happy to satiate this desire that they're not sharing elsewhere. Sometimes they
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  do share it with their wives. Sometimes their wives send them to me. So it's yeah, it's all over
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  it's all over the place. People relate in different ways and they see the institution in different
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  ways and it's just very complicated. I just serve a purpose for a short amount of time and
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  that's that. I'd love to hear that conversation between the wife and the husband when she's
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  sending them to you. She's like, for fuck's sake, just go and find somebody who can do this for you.
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  I'm not into it. Well, there's that or there's I would like you to do this this this this and this
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  with him. Sure, he doesn't shower and send him back dirty. All right. So I see. So you're actually
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  the prepper to create the scenario that the wife would prefer. Oh, it's I guess it's different
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  ways. Things they don't want to do. Things that they want to have done and settled. It's I could
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  be anything and I'm sure how they handle it. I just see the notes. And you just talked about
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  your purpose. What do you see your purpose has? Purpose is a funny thing for me. I think it's
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  it's crafted. Yeah, I think that do I feel like there is a purpose? I don't think I'm driven
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  by this ultimate destined purpose. I think I create different ones for myself.
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  Over the years, depending how things shift, what's my current one? I think I enjoy a sense of
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  peace and that the people who are close to me are well looked after. And that's probably my current
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  focus. Right. And what's your purpose for your client? Well, for the client.
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  I think that it can probably become more nuanced if I know people over time. And so I'll probably have
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  different ideas of goals that I want for them, that I hope for them. Because we end up having
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  relationships, right? Because these are people I've known for years. And I know on such a vulnerable
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  level, and I know about their lives and the things that they're probably missing out on
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  in terms of ways that they could be better fulfilled. And so I wish the best for them, whether you
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  can coach them or coach them, I don't think that that's entirely possible. I don't really want
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  that weight. That's not my job, I don't think. But I just I guess at the base level, I just hope
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  that everyone has a good time. Yeah. Are there some clients with whom you only speak?
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  Like, then I want to do anything about only speak. So I would say that because I spend about three
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  days with a client, I might play with them once, like in an intimate setting. And then there will
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  be a power dynamic throughout, but maybe not any explicit play. So I mean, what's that 99% of the time?
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  90%. When it comes to other people who just want to chat and not actually play, I mean, that's
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  the online sphere, right? And that's the huge sphere. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have an only fans,
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  I don't go on it too much, but I chit chat. And all we do is chit chat. So there's this happening
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  in my life. I have this particular fantasy. What do you think that is? It's just indulging that
• 27:02
  side of them without ever touching them. So there's lots of people. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Like it,
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  I mean, it's almost like pot therapist. People tend to enjoy it to make that parallel. I think that
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  human connection, understanding vulnerability can be therapeutic, but until you're actually trained,
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  I really hesitate to use that kind of language. Well, you are allowed to be bashful about it,
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  because you don't want to step outside of your, your, your expertise, your expertise. But if people
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  are spending hours and hours sharing their deepest and most private things with somebody and
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  they're getting something out of that, that broadly falls for me under under the colloquial umbrella,
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  at least. And so how do you differentiate the girl experience from the porn star experience,
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  if so much of what you're doing is providing these people with the sense of a confidant?
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  Well, the GFE versus PSC was happening when I was escorting and especially when I was in the
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  brothels. Nowadays, that doesn't really intertwine in what I do in the domination. I would say that
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  how it looks these days is almost like I'm a sugar baby, but in a domination power dynamic.
• 28:26
  Right. I would say that's probably what my business model looks like now if there's lack of a better
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  phrase. And what's a sugar baby? Sugar baby is somebody who classically will meet a sugar daddy,
• 28:44
  sugar mommy. And that daddy mommy will provide for the sugar baby and the sugar baby will
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  like kind of bad trade in dates, sex, time, texting. And this is usually negotiated on a
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  relationship basis. So I would like to see you once a week. And I will look after your phone bills
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  and pay your rent. And so, you know, all of these can look quite different. But essentially, it's a
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  mutually beneficial relationship where one party is financially giving the other remuneration for
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  their time, their efforts. And I would say that if I look at what I'm doing now, I'm spending all
• 29:30
  of this time, and there are these relationships that are forming, but there is that financial
• 29:35
  element that I have negotiated at the beginning of all of this. So I don't really see how I'm doing
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  this right now. Can you just speak a bit closer to the mic again, you're drawing. Yes,
• 29:48
  swallowing the mic. That's interesting because we're familiar with the sugar daddy, sugar baby
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  relationship, at least when there's a sort of a power imbalance between people who are not
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  formally codifying their relationship as being financial, but everybody sort of understands
• 30:06
  the subtext. And you're able to, because you're overt about it, I guess you're able to run
• 30:12
  several of these relationships concurrently and benefit from all of them.
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  What is the benefit and what is the detriment?
• 30:25
  So far so good. Exactly. That's right.
• 30:29
  Yeah, so far so far. Will they come a point at which the benefits are outweighed by the downsides?
• 30:43
  I mean, they're human relationships. So it's great to have the social connection.
• 30:49
  It's the money is really helpful, useful, powerful for my life.
• 30:55
  As they're a point where I'll cut it off, I mean, the ones who I'm very close to,
• 31:02
  I probably will never cut them off if as long as they understand where they are and don't cross,
• 31:08
  you know, just healthy emotional boundaries, because they've become a part of my life.
• 31:14
  And they know me almost as well as I know them. So, yeah. And he's taking on new plans.
• 31:22
  You know, not really, not really. If people find out a way to get in contact with me,
• 31:28
  which, you know, I have my email out there, but for some reason people don't.
• 31:33
  They try all sorts of in like social media ways and I don't answer those.
• 31:38
  So if they manage to actually email the old fashioned way and ask very politely,
• 31:43
  I'll take lunch with them for $2,500. And if I like them, then I'll invite them for an afternoon
• 31:49
  for $5,000 and then they can pay me $10,000 per day from there. And then if they can do that
• 31:56
  repeatedly and they're healthy about it as in psychologically boundaries,
• 32:01
  then I'm happy to accept them into the fold, but, you know, that happens very, very rarely now.
• 32:09
  Fascinating. I mean, in that case, I guess when I ask, will the downsides ever outweigh the
• 32:15
  upsides that you mean your career to some extent will have an automatic shelf life? Because if
• 32:20
  you're dealing primarily with older males and you're not replacing them, they'll age out.
• 32:31
  Sorry to be there. There are bad news. I see this business model as having a finite,
• 32:38
  finite window. I just saw myself at like the supermarket checking the expiry day for a moment
• 32:44
  when you were saying those words. I mean, we're all aware of something. I remember her
• 32:52
  one and dime with best of them and they all died. They already know that this is going to happen.
• 32:59
  And I've already have plans for them. I've told them to put it in their will if possible,
• 33:04
  that I'm going to make them into diamonds and I'm going to carry them with me.
• 33:10
  That's nice. We have plans. There's a plan. They'll still give me something.
• 33:15
  Look, turn them into two diamonds and carry one of the diamonds and sell the other.
• 33:26
  You found your lavish return. Look at you. I'll call you when I need to switch my business model
• 33:31
  up again. Exactly. So let's talk briefly about that one percent of the time that you're spending
• 33:40
  when you're actually doing the porn star experience in a physical way and you're actually
• 33:44
  engaging in the sex work itself. To people who are familiar with vanilla sex sex,
• 33:55
  are we talking about things that involve, do they have affection for particular objects?
• 34:00
  Do they have fetishes for inanimate things? What do you give us a snapshot of the range of
• 34:07
  experiences that we're talking about? To clarify, we use girlfriend experience and porn star
• 34:13
  experience to describe vanilla sex, transactional experiences. In the domination world, we'll just say
• 34:21
  we're doing a session or it sounds so much less interesting. We've got to think it's something
• 34:26
  better. But what does happen is you're going to discuss the things that they're interested in
• 34:34
  and that can sometimes be inanimate objects, but most likely on a person. So Estiletto is a huge
• 34:42
  object of affection, but when it's being worn often, or maybe they're into a specific type of leather
• 34:52
  bondage that they want to be in a straight jacket and thrown into a prison cell, or maybe they
• 34:58
  have this medical fetish and they want to be poked in a certain way or be made to fill out a form
• 35:06
  and feel terrified for what's ahead of them. It could be such a range. It's like, and these things
• 35:12
  shift also. They can pick up on an experience and start to sexualize something around that. They
• 35:19
  might also be very stressed and then a particular thing that they're interested in when they're
• 35:26
  only very stressed comes out. So these things change all the time. So normally we will open a session
• 35:32
  with what might we be interested in exploring with today? And how are you feeling about how far
• 35:41
  we could take that? And remember what your say for it is? All right. And this is how I run it.
• 35:47
  Obviously some people plan far ahead of time, but I'm a little bit more spontaneous. And then
• 35:54
  I'll just end up working my way through these things that they've spoken about being interested
• 36:00
  in, or that I feel like I want to explore. And kind of, I prefer to weave people into a state of
• 36:08
  loss of somewhere else and then slowly untangling them out of it. That's what I tend to do
• 36:16
  when I prefer. How do you do that? How do you untangle them? When I first started,
• 36:26
  one of the other mistresses showed me an easy trick of, at the end of the session, she would bring
• 36:32
  them a glass of water. And it would introduce them to the fact that it's not about you just doing
• 36:40
  everything for me. It's about me being able to do something for you and to think about your
• 36:46
  welfare in this kind of overt way again. So there's lots of things that can be done. It can be
• 36:52
  you know, like, you know, you are somebody who speaks to a lot of people. When you have to close a
• 36:56
  conversation, you want them to move on. Sometimes you just ask, so what's happening for you next?
• 37:01
  Bring them out, bringing them out. There's so many little ways that you can start to weave
• 37:07
  them out of a headspace out of where you've taken them. Because also, if you just
• 37:12
  snap them off from the middle of everything and drop them back into the world, it can be very
• 37:18
  difficult, problematic and not sustainable for anybody. So you want them to come back. You
• 37:23
  got to look after them. What is their state of mind when they're at their most heightened state
• 37:30
  of a rouse? Are they tender and vulnerable? Are they raw? Are they empowered? Are they
• 37:38
  demeaned? Are they like, if you were to drop them at them, you know, at the most irresponsible
• 37:45
  time to do so, what state would I find them in? Everyone looks a little different, but everybody is
• 37:52
  at their most vulnerable state. Yes, but it comes out differently. Yeah. Time of day,
• 37:59
  type of person. Is there a favorite state for me? I think frenzy, shock, disbelief,
• 38:10
  and almost a total lack of awareness of who they are in their place in the world. I think
• 38:16
  that's my favorite state to see. I like that. Do you notice yourself noticing that they're
• 38:25
  heading towards that and realizing that you're on the right track and is the joy of your job?
• 38:31
  How long does those bread crumbs and finding that spot? Absolutely. I mean, some people ride
• 38:38
  roller coasters, you know? I create them in minds and ride them. That's my favorite thing.
• 38:46
  I love roller coasters, but I've never done that in a SM. Maybe there's just like, it's just like,
• 38:57
  I think you get it out of this job. You're talking to people all the time. You've got to ride where
• 39:03
  they're going, create paths. It's similar, I would say. Well, that's interesting that you say,
• 39:09
  because yeah, a lot of people don't understand that the actual craft of having conversations is
• 39:15
  that there's a whole set of tree branches in front of you at every point in time with an
• 39:20
  infinite number of things that you could pursue and areas that you could explore and the skill is in
• 39:27
  never getting it perfect, but like, probabilistically getting better and better at picking the
• 39:33
  branches that are likely to yield the most interesting conversations. And that's not that
• 39:39
  dissimilar I assume from what you're doing constantly when you're with a client.
• 39:44
  Yeah, sometimes I wonder whether I'm blind sighting myself, but, you know, how much can you
• 39:51
  cover really? As long as I'm still getting some sort of thrill and benefit from it and I'm paying
• 40:00
  my bills and then some, I'm okay. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you're getting a lot more out of it than
• 40:10
  that. I am, but I think the core, that's probably what is the most settling for me, those core bits of
• 40:25
  foundation. Yeah. Are there moments where you think you're heading towards that state of frenzy and
• 40:33
  shock and disbelief that you're shooting for? And you don't quite, you never quite find it that
• 40:39
  there's always there's some inhibition. Maybe the client just isn't willing to go there. You find
• 40:47
  yourself groping around and it's not quite landing. Yes, of course, of course, but I can see the struggle
• 40:57
  and then I know why we're not getting there. So it's not like I'm like, oh, I didn't I get it.
• 41:03
  Why didn't I get my hit? It's just more like, okay, I wonder what's happening that that's so hard
• 41:10
  to do. I hope that they get to find it some other time. Yeah. Sounds a lot like therapy.
• 41:18
  Is it? I think this is more fun. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, that's true. You're essentially
• 41:34
  diagnosing what is what blockages and in, you know, in between what someone claims to want
• 41:41
  to want and what they're actually experiencing. Okay. All right. And you're trying to fix that.
• 41:49
  You're trying to release that blockage and you're trying to get them to a place of,
• 41:54
  I don't know, I don't want to label the analogy, but to a place kind of almost spiritual,
• 42:00
  like awakening or enlightenment, right? Okay. So does that mean that therapists are like
• 42:08
  are also emotional sadists? Well, are you a sadist? I would say that there's a part of me that is
• 42:18
  emotionally sadistic. Yeah, that wants to drive people to these very difficult places.
• 42:23
  Hmm. I mean, I guess you can be a short-term sadist and a long-term benefactor, right? I mean,
• 42:35
  the process of allowing someone to get in touch with things that are unavailable to them might
• 42:42
  require some breaking down of them and a good therapist can participate in that in the interest of
• 42:48
  opening someone up a higher vision of themselves. Yeah, I don't know if I'm so visionary.
• 42:55
  I definitely don't want to leave people broken, but I don't mind breaking as a part of the
• 43:02
  process to enjoyment, fulfillment. I don't have a vision for the outcome of them as a human being
• 43:11
  walking out, but I think I have a general belief in that we are probably going to benefit from
• 43:20
  breaking down our preconceived ideas of ourselves and how we move through the world and the world's
• 43:27
  around us. And I want to break them in myself all the time and question myself. I just, I don't
• 43:34
  know. I'm also a masochist, I guess, but I like to do that in others because I've seen a masochist
• 43:42
  and because it's been beneficial and I want that rush for myself and the world around me.
• 43:50
  Yeah. I mean, but you are only interested are you in doing this with people who have paid good money
• 43:57
  to come and do it with you? It's not like you're unleashing your sadism on straight cash.
• 44:07
  I'm pretty sure that the cats are going to be far more skilled in being sadistic over me than I am
• 44:12
  them. Can you tell I'm a done person? Yeah, me too. What is sadism look like? I mean, when you're
• 44:25
  when you're feeling most energized by your own sadism, are you whipping people? You're swearing
• 44:30
  out of me. You're spitting out of me, pissing on them. I mean, what's the, you know, what is the
• 44:36
  most cathartic release? I would say that it would have to be about where I am in my in my mind
• 44:47
  and life at that point in time. I think if I have had a particular rage that it was left unexpressed,
• 44:56
  then I would probably find a greater release and the thing for me would definitely be incorporal,
• 45:03
  so an impact in whipping somebody. But there can be a very similar rush in just being five steps ahead
• 45:12
  of somebody conversationally when they're when they're in a consensual space.
• 45:19
  But like, am I doing this out in the world? It's hard to not let it bleed, but I don't think it's
• 45:25
  spread in a negative way just yet. I think if it's anything, it's benefited the world around me
• 45:33
  and myself in a positive way. You know, I've, me like many other women have learned how to shut up
• 45:42
  and just let it slide, you know, maybe that's changing for younger generations, but I'm older
• 45:48
  than I look. And it was how I grew up. And so it's taught me how to be artfully vocal
• 45:56
  around situations where I would normally have shut up. And so that's been beneficial to me
• 46:03
  so far. What is being five steps ahead of the client conversationally look like?
• 46:12
  It's very fast. It notices things about the person in front of me that I
• 46:17
  tell them. So I tell them about themselves, about what they're thinking and why they're
• 46:23
  thinking that and how that's manifesting and how they're moving and picking apart who they are.
• 46:30
  And that usually starts to shatter them pretty fast so that they become putty.
• 46:37
  Then you can play with them. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.
• 46:44
  It works. What's that? It works. Yeah. I'm just thinking of the learning curve that this must
• 46:54
  involve like from your early days in the brothel where, you know, you're a junior person who's
• 47:00
  just learning the ropes to now having the level of competence or expertise or whatever I said
• 47:07
  earlier about being in the higher echelons of the industry to have the aptitude,
• 47:15
  yeah, I guess, to turn those people into putty. I mean, do you think of it like that? Do you
• 47:19
  think of it like the 10,000 hours of work that the musician has to do to truly master the craft
• 47:26
  of their instrument? Of course, experience helps. But I think that I grew up in a family where we were
• 47:33
  always asking questions, where we were always examining ourselves and looking out for each other
• 47:39
  and asking why are you feeling this way? Are you looking that way? So I think that that probably
• 47:44
  prepped me in a way that maybe other people, families, don't necessarily do gave me leverage.
• 47:52
  And then that kind of fed into a lot of other jobs that I did before this.
• 47:58
  One of the more recent ones before I switched into this industry was that I was a researcher.
• 48:03
  And so obviously that helped a lot also. But very quickly, I understood in research actually
• 48:13
  how easy it was to get the answer you wanted if you just asked the right question in the right way.
• 48:18
  It started a long time ago. But obviously this drop has given me opportunity to be more playful
• 48:27
  with it and to get more experience. Do you still ask questions like that, like a researcher?
• 48:38
  Yeah, some of my friends call it question time.
• 48:48
  When they just want to chill. And I'm just like, but why is it like this? And why is it like, but I
• 48:52
  don't understand? Very annoying. But I get answers and it enriches my life experience. So thank you.
• 49:02
  I remember you once mentioned that one of your clients had like some emotional attachment to the
• 49:14
  leg of a chair or the leg of a table or something like that. Does that ring a bell?
• 49:20
  No, I mean, somebody wants to hang onto my legs and cry to maybe it was that.
• 49:26
  No, it was a physical object. I mean, it might have been a piece of, it might have been something
• 49:34
  they put on a shelf or something. But I remember being struck by the idea that a person could have
• 49:41
  a sexual or emotional kinship with a non mammal or literally, no, not just a non-mammals.
• 49:53
  We're stricting it to mammals now. I mean, what is a wedding ring? You know, it's like,
• 50:07
  you can create emotional legacies to anything with enough liquidating, with enough implantations
• 50:14
  psychologically. Why not? I just interviewed a guy whose wife had dropped their wedding ring off
• 50:25
  the side of their sailboat after having had it for 40 years. And he's at two years with three
• 50:32
  professional dive teams. Let's go through Silt at the bottom of the Parameter River in pitch darkness,
• 50:42
  zero visibility, teaming with blue sharks. And they've finally got it. And I must say,
• 50:48
  I was thinking the same thing, like, you know, much he wanted to. I mean, it is just a ring, bro.
• 50:53
  Yeah. Wow. Did they get it or did they get somebody else's? Was it engraved?
• 50:59
  They got it. I'm not mistaken. Are they sure? I'm mistaken. Wow. I'm not going to start
• 51:06
  putting it down. Okay. Well, you're not me. That's right.
• 51:16
  Do you have our insight? How do you walk through the world thinking about other people's
• 51:21
  sexuality and sexual fulfillment knowing what you know about what exists inside the hearts and
• 51:28
  lines of your clients? Do you feel like people are self-expressed, suppressed, fulfilled,
• 51:37
  confused? Perverts. Perfect. All of them. I don't really think about it. I go about my day.
• 51:49
  If people, yeah, I don't think about it. I think if I have, you know, there's a lot of things
• 51:56
  happening in these interactions. And I invest very heavily in them that the rest of my life is
• 52:01
  fairly serene. Otherwise, I don't know, it wouldn't really suit me. Maybe the intensity would
• 52:06
  suit other people, but I have like an on and off kind of switch. If somebody is in front of me for
• 52:12
  long enough or if they are giving me a very difficult time, I think my job has probably allowed me to
• 52:18
  humanize them a little bit more because I guess I've seen, I've had the opportunity to see
• 52:26
  some fairly dark places in people but still understand that there's a hole at work. And so I think
• 52:32
  maybe it's lent me that. But do I think about what are they into? What are they? No, it's maybe,
• 52:39
  maybe I'll see them look at my feet in a certain way and be like, okay, you like feet. But that's
• 52:44
  about it. Then I go on and I pay them and I take my chocolate bar and walk away or whatever.
• 52:53
  Yeah, I hope you get a toe to suck on soon.
• 53:00
  That should be the title of girl with a biography. I take my chocolate bar and I walk away.
• 53:06
  I mean that like, you know, sometimes I will have been on a meditation retreat for five days or
• 53:11
  something and I'll come back into normy world or I don't know, you know, doing ayahuasca or
• 53:16
  something like this and then coming back, getting on a train and looking at everybody going,
• 53:21
  wow, like are you, what's going on there? What's going on in your little brain? You know,
• 53:26
  you fat duckling of a middle-aged man gazing out the window there, like what's happened here?
• 53:33
  Like, you know, this kind of voyeuristic sense of like either people's potential or people's,
• 53:42
  yeah, I don't know. You look at things differently depending on what it is that you've just been
• 53:45
  doing. I mean, if I've been talking to people about their professional life or my brother who's
• 53:51
  a coach for senior executives, you know, has been talking to me about people's professional careers,
• 53:56
  then yeah, I look at a platform full of people waiting for a train differently than I would if I'd
• 54:03
  spent the past 11 years as a dominatrix. I assume. Okay, so how did I look at people 11 years ago
• 54:11
  and how do I look at them now? I think with a more compassion, a little bit more and a little bit
• 54:17
  more understanding, but do I bother look? First of all, how are you? So I used to do Vipassana
• 54:23
  pretty ridiculously far too heavily for my sanity and when I would come out of a thing,
• 54:30
  it would I would be on overload. I wouldn't be able to think up stories. Everything would just be
• 54:35
  too much for me. And I think maybe there's something about me that I have my overload in these
• 54:41
  sessions. And when I go out, I just have to really put my boundaries up. Otherwise, I'm just going
• 54:46
  to run out. Maybe there's an element of that as well, which is also why I stopped meditating. I was
• 54:53
  like, this is too much too much information. I do not need to know this. Right.
• 55:01
  Right, that's interesting. The ESA compassion.
• 55:08
  Life is hard for people. Life is really hard in accessing these spaces to actually finally
• 55:13
  enjoy themselves to let go to feel like understood or that they can just say a truth for a moment.
• 55:21
  It's very difficult for people and I feel for them. Yeah.
• 55:27
  It's fascinating stuff. Can I ask you a few first date questions? I always ask guests,
• 55:32
  a few first date questions at the end. And it's basically just a raw shark, right? First
• 55:39
  thing that comes into mind first to get to know you a little better. What TV shows did you watch
• 55:45
  as a kid? I was only allowed to watch educational things. Sesame Street. Sesame Street was the go-to,
• 55:57
  probably my favorite. Yeah. But don't worry. I managed, I figured out how to turn on the Chinese
• 56:04
  soap operas when nobody was home. Is that still something that you and Dalton? No, but I remember
• 56:13
  those storylines fondly. Right, right. What's your go-to alcoholic beverage and your go-to
• 56:20
  non-alcoholic beverage? Alcoholic. At the moment, it's champagne.
• 56:27
  That was just a little taste of our first date questions, which you'll be able to hear all of
• 56:31
  if you subscribe to uncomfortable conversations. Not just the questions, but of course all of our
• 56:36
  banter around them, which become a subsequent little episode of themselves. If you do subscribe,
• 56:41
  you will not only hear that, but you'll also hear no ads on any episode ever. And you'll get
• 56:46
  additional content, including opportunities to connect directly with me. You can subscribe at
• 56:52
  uncomfortable conversations.substac.com or follow the links in the podcast description. Otherwise,
• 56:59
  I'll see you next time on uncompromising.