Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 691: How I Wrote Fight Club with Jim Uhls
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- You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number six ninety one. What people are ashamed of usually makes a good story. F Scott Fitzgerald broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who prey upon them. The odds are stacked against the indie filmmaker. The old distribution model of making money with your film is broken, and there needs to be a change. The future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker or the film entrepreneur. In Rise of the Film Entrepreneur, I break down how to actually make money with your film projects and show you how to turn your indie film into a profitable business. With case studies examining successes and failures. This book shows you the step by step method to turn your passion into a profitable career. If you're making a feature film, series, or any other kind of video content, the Film Entrepreneur method will set you up for success. The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course audiobook. If you want to order it, just head over to www dot film bizbook dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis. Thank you for having me on. You know, well, thank you for coming on, because you are a person who I've been trying to get on for I think almost a year now. Yeah, but that's that's totally my fault. And that's because it's like I keep trying to find what's the right perfect time, and it's like, you know, you know, you can't find the right perfect window of time. So I finally decided to stop trying to do that. Well, the real story is, Jim is I've been wearing you down and kind of stalking you on Twitter and Facebook, and finally you're just like, look, if I agree to this, we leave me a Loane kid. And I'm like, sure, Oh yeah, well I wasn't supposed to talk about that at Corey to Yeah, law enforcement, that's right here in the room with me. I wasn't supposed to bring that up. So they need you to keep me talking so they can trace the call, right, yeah, yeah, right, definitely keep talking. Yeah. So, you know, Jim, just to get started, you know, you actually got started off with I mean, would what would probably be like a Grand Slam in terms in movie terms, because you started off with Fight Club. I mean that, you know, just just be writing the adaptation of the novel by I think it's Chuck Palauk, I think as I pronounced his last name, Yeah, yeah, politick. Actually, you know, it's still different than it sounds, but yeah. Yeah. And by the way, I actually got to write him a letter one time and he sent it back to me. Very very interesting guy too. But um, you know, oh he is he's great. He's like, he's great and He's participated in a lot of strange things, so he's got a lot of stories. Really, Oh yeah, absolutely, And you know it's it's funny. I actually knew a a person who used to do like, um, I think she worked at Borders or at Barnes and Noble, and she said whenever he did a book event, she goes it was like the it was so fun because all the people would come out. But she's like it all. So it's kind of a little edgy because you know, some of his fans and some of the stuff that he would write, you know what I mean, the would kind of bring out the people that uh, you know, um, let's just say a little more outgoing. Let's just let's let's let's just oh yeah, energetic, outgoing extroverts who happen to have a lot of tattoos and piercings and stuff. And that's kind of thing, right, intimidating people. Yeah, although you know what's funny about Chuck is Chuck is you know, he's pretty tall. I am too. He's like really built out and everything musc muscular, but he is like he talks like the softest, kindest voice you know in the world. It's just it's kind of like it. It doesn't go with the image as he looks like like I'll throw you off a bridge, you know, because get on wrong side. Well, I I guess that that that's so it's kind of like the Mike Tyson syndrome then, where you know, looks very intimidating that you hear him talking. He's very self spoken, I guess, except the church sports high Mike chest is as a high voice, does it? Yeah, he does, he does get but but uh but yeah, you know, he was such an interesting guy to just to get a correspondence from. And uh, I know he does you know a lot of really cool things in the writing community. Uh. I mean there's even a thing he does on lit Reactor where it sells out in like seconds. Um he does like an online class. But uh but you know, just such a it's such a really interesting guy. And you know when he wrote fight Club, which I actually talked to him about, That's what I really talked to him about was because I'm always interested in people's like first outing, like their first you know project out the gate. So basically with you, you know, his first project was fight Club that actually got published, and then your first project was the adaptation of you know, of of Fight Club. So you know, how did that all have come together for you? Actually, I was learning the adaptation from the manuscript before the publishers actually put the ship, but it on shelves because I remember the day we got a copy the adventure got to copy him the published book. But yeah, I was working off a manuscript at the beginning. Now I have been sent the manuscript by somebody I knew worked for a producer, said, every studio and producer in town has passed on this, but I'm sending it to you because I just know you're going to like it, just for fun and who knows, Just keep your attention on it and see if anything does happen. So I read it and it was like wow, I mean, first of all, blew me away. Secondly, I thought it would be such a great gig to be paid to it at this even though it will never be made to a movie. It's just to be paid to write. It had to be a great gig, right, And so I I had, you know, without my agent, we were like seeing while and I everybody's pretty much passed on this. And then that was around the time the Fox two thousand was created as Laura Ziscan was writing it and she's kind of like, you know, I don't know. She wanted to do really out there stuff, and the book was considered unadaptable, probably because it is a monologue. The whole book is like a monologue an actor to do. I mean, Chuck I even told me he started by writing a monologue. I mean he wanted an actor to do it on stage, but we don't. I mean, it wasn't going to be that long obviously, but um, it didn't have a lot of fully fleshed out scenes in um they were described I guess by the guy, but there um and uh so it had it got branded unadaptable by everybody, right, and of course that I think Laura was sech a person. If you say that, that's like a red flag. And Trugle could basic equations. She was, I knowell it really Oh and but she wouldn't hire a writer until she hired a drunk. So um. By this point, I started getting people other people Thoughts two thousand and the producers were Ross Bell and Josh Donnard. Yeah, I mean I was. I was having meetings with them that started to turn into like where actually you're doing this with, you know, even though no one said like that, and they made Fox two thousand aware of me, and I happen to have a spect at the time that was I don't know it makes it made. There wasn't a blacklist then, but it made some kind of list of best ones not produced original spects. I don't know what it was. So it's kind of had a reputation. The script and that was what everyone read as a sample. And I kind of already knew Fisher. I say, he's somewhere between an acquaintance center friend by that, because there was this place called the Pate Guides where all these people would hang out, like Shane Black, who are you from UCLA? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And Fincher was one of the gang because you know, a good portion we're from the Bay Area in San Francisco, Bay Air and who moved to La so we kind of do each other if then he liked that script I'm talking about, and nobody still, nobody ever said at this point, you're hired to me, right, And finally there's this huge lunch schedule. It's going to have Laura just uh, it's going to have other Fox two thousand executives. It's gonna Fincher in me. And the idea is, oh I re producers of course, Ross Bella, Joshta and so. And the idea was, I'm going to have to sell myself or they'll move on. So it sort of like it's we're all having lunch, You're going to tell us why you have an idea of how to do this? It's up. Well, like most writers, I don't like pitching, you know. So what I did was I started this group conversation among everybody about how you know, with this work but that work, did you do this? And it went on and told the lunch Oh first, sorry I left at it important detail. I got there early enough to know what table it was going to be. I waited, and the next person who arrived was Fincher. We kind of since we knew we talking, we shook a hand. He was and he sat down and I made sure I sat down right next, and then everybody else came. So it already looked like like I was connected to Fisher, you know, Thank you, Ben. Yes, I ran this conversation which never was a pitch by me. But it was a very interesting conversation about the obstacles of trying to you know, turn it into the film and Kevin McCormick, who was basically, you know, Laurska's mean person there, I think a fix two thousands of time. We're leaving, the lunch is over and Fisher is talking about when I should start on the thing. Nothing's been said Kevin McCormick as were walking out, since you know, Jim, really you have a subjective pitch, what you're gonna do? I said, yeah, I know, he didn't do anything about it, right, And the next thing, I know, my age is just making a deal. That's that. You know, I'm starting the first draft. So it was, you know, a little bit etherial. I don't all happened, you know. That is a good strategy though a Jim. It's all about appearance, right, So you have to you have to always look and kind of kind of set things up so to set yourself up for the wind wins, you know. Yeah, And you know what I said, What's funny about that is I didn't see I didn't have that idea until I just absolutely got there early. And then that's when I became cunning all of a sudden. It's like I've never thought of that before. And then I was like, yeah, I'm gonna I want to sit next to Fincher because like it all came to me, like I don't know, like I have a split personality myself and the other personality came out and said, this is what you're gonna do. You know, it's kind of that kind of ties in a fight club too, having that split personality, right right, I suddenly I was Tyler Dirton. And by the way, you know, the first person narrator of the book doesn't have a name. Ever, there's no name and a narrator right right, And I think I talked to Ross Bell and Josh don It was Josh Donn and at some point I can't pinpoint it, but he stopped being a producer became an agent again, which he had been before. And so I only left Ross Bell for the first draft, and Fincher was doing something like expecting me to just get the first draft in and then we'll fit them, we'll look at it and talk about it. Right, So um um, I forgot what started this, but what we say they got me on to this part of the conversation we're doing all my club and du dual personalities and alter egos. Oh yeah, no name. So yeah, we discuss I think it was most mostly me and Ross Bell. We should put the word narrator down as the name, and I said, you know, let's good. Just get really really tiredome narrator goes to the door. Narrator laughs. Narrator says, it's just I mean in the in the in the place where you put the character name before the dialogue. Okay, not too bad, but in all the actions descriptions and everything, it's like, okay, well we're going to name it in the script for us. It's never in dialogue, it's never in the movie. But we have to call him something. So I said, Jack, I mean, what's the first name that comes behind me? Make an example? All right, So what God comes into Jack? And he said, you know, I was the first thing anyone picks up is Jack. And I said Jack. Yeah, all right, we'll call the character Jack so that I could write Jack in the screenplay, is said narrator all the time, right, And then somewhere on the line, we found out the reader's digest completely denied permission to use their old series of articles, which was like I am Joe's Heart, I am Joe's Liver, which is referred to in the book because of the house on paper streets, a billion old magazines all over the point. And so we said, well, we'll just change it to Jack and legal cleared it. Jeff, you say, I am Jack's whatever organ. They can't do anything. You don't name the magazine. I am Jack Sliver, they can't do anything. Okay, So that actually gets said, and some people think that the report was actually saying when he said, I am Jack whatever, the name of his character, but he wasn't. It was the name of the articles. And then he made parodies of them, you know, like I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. Actually I bring that up because I had to write. I wanted him to say it out because I knew we'd be so used to him narrating and having his own comments that I wrote. I couldn't just leave off the vo because I think it's a mistake. So in addition to leaving off parentheses vo after Jack, I wrote in the parentheses below his name said that out, Wow, because he's been thinking this all along, I am Jack steaming outrage, I am whatever, and the boss says something to him, and he actually says that the boss, I am Jack's completely lack of surprise to the boss that black. It's the only time he actually said something that he normally does the narration that he said it out loud like. And I thought that also shows that his mind there's less division between what he thinks and what he says because he's coming apart, right, so as the alter egos go back and forth, right, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean it's this was still before he saithing out a loud before he discovered the truth, you know, So, Jim, just to just to ask a quick question there. You know when you hear when when people hear things like about screenwriting rules and et cetera. But you know, you shouldn't do this in a screenplay. You shouldn't do that in a screenplay. If somebody were to do something like this in a screenplay and they submitted it to a competition or what or or an agent or what have you, you know, what kind of response do you think they would get if they did something like that. Do you think somebody would think it was you know, original, or do you think somebody would say like, oh, you know you have to kind of write a cut and dry screenplay as the first one. But when then then when you get a little cash, you can move right, So what what should you what is this? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Just like you know, kind of how things are, you know, like he's writing parentheses set out loud, you know, just kind of like to try to either you know, in a competition or even just saying it to an agent. You know, do do you think that they would ever ever get any kind of backlash if they did something like yeah, you know you were that would work? I mean, it wouldn't be a good idea unless you had already established that this guy thinks these things and this bo when he says them, and you do it repeatedly enough over a long enough period of time that you make a point of saying, this time he's saying it out bet be okay. But if it was just out of the blue, there was no setup, or it probably would look like, you know, not good form. I guess well, because you know, you always hear about the screenplay rules, and you always kind of wonder or at least I wonder, you know, how how how much should they be? Really? How much do they actually carry weight? You know what I mean, because I've read so many books on STO on screenwriting, and also do you hear so many people talk about it, we actually start to wonder about all the different rules and you know where they actually came from, and if they even if some of themn't even matter anymore, you know what? You know, you know what I mean, Jim, Because I mean, I'm sure you get a lot of questions too, because you know, um, you still run the writer's lab out there in LA and I'm sure you get a ton of people saying, hey, well I heard this and I heard that. I mean, do you get that a lot? Well, you know, I think that they are always relaxing the rules. They're always gooding, you know. It's it's always been a process of slowly becoming more and more, you know, however you want to write it. I mean within certain prints, you know. I mean, if they have to know if something that's what we call a slug line, you know, the shocked exterior interior living room day, they have to know that after that there is action or description they have to know that when someone's talking, they have to see the name where you put the character name in all caps the center of the page, and then their dialogue. So some things have to look like a screenplay. But in terms of other rules, you're getting into style questions, because there's actually a style beyond just obeying the format, Like, for example, you don't do too much directing on paper. That's not good. You know, shot his face, shot his watch, shot his feet step into the shot. You know, I mean, it's not a good idea. So great writers write in the master scene, you know, they say where it's taking place, and then they just write the scene. Now are there exceptions of that? Of course there are, and there are important ones that you can use. One of them as the first example I always give to where you're actually talking about the camera is pulling back to reveal more than what you were seeing at the top of the seat. Thrillers and comedies use this a lot, which is like, you know, a comedy guy says to another guy, I will never do something as boring as fishing. Cut two. It's the other guy who was talking to the guy who likes to fish, just sitting there with a fishing poem in a boat and you pull back to reveal that on the other end of the boat is the guy who said I will never do something as borings fishing in these fishes. Right. You first thought it was just the guy who likes to fish there, and you pulled back and you revealed the guy who just screamed the never do it is sitting there also fishing. So that's a reveal. And you know, thrillers do it a lot by showing the lead character whatever they're doing, pulling back so that they reveal the killer, which the lead character doesn't see. Yeah, but we do. Now, those those are the things you're definitely doing writing that is part of your narrative and storytelling. It's not telling somebody how to shoot till it's it's saying, I'm you know, this is the intention when I start the scene, and then I'm going to reveal somebody or something. So that's all right. You know, that's an example of something where you don't have to just writeing masters. You can have a moment like that. I think writers, I mean from what I've read, they basically started to go the way into like what the camera does. I don't know if that's why is if somebody's just starting out, I don't know. I know that there's a cringe factor to seeing something that looks like you're directing the whole movie on paper. So I would say you use it when the storytelling is saying that, you know, the suspense thriller, if you're writing it, you have the right to say that, we think there's this barely peaceful scene with the lead character, and then you pull back to reveal that the killer is right behind the street. You know, whatever it is, that's that is right, That is pre stream. Um. But yeah, I don't know. I have to go down which rules we're talking about one by one to know what By answer your question, Yeah, I know I should have I should have been more specifics Jim, But I know, I know it was kind of a blanket statement. But you know, you just hear different rules of screenwriting. I mean, they even did one on script notes one time where they kind of went through these rules quote unquote, um, next time, I mean next time off to send them to you, But they kind of went through those script notes is the podcast by Craig Mason and John August But oh yeah, no, I know, I know John August is such a great source of information uses amazing. Yeah, and man, he has things that people agree with people don't like. For instance, Perior is what typewriters right, That's why they that's why screen places still done because on the typewriter, back in the days when there was only tie a page equals a minute, they don't want you to suddenly start having smaller type or bigger type for it. They want it to look like that old typewriter. Okay, and that's Perior twelve point fed that's what they wanted in period. So I don't even know what that point out was me. See see, I told you, I told you, Jim, I get too heady, and now we're going down that path right right right now. I like that part. Yeah, well, what are the rules? What are the rules you're talking? Oh oh no, wait, sorry, I know what I'm gonna say. John August agrees with and a lot of people do that. In Perior twelve point font, which it looks like that typewriter you used to look like. If you put a period, it's have two spaces after it. And the reason for it typewriter was with that font a period with only one space, sort of you could miss that it I guess your eyes go over. It might not. It doesn't make the statement that this sims end and this one begins. So I know that John thinks we should be to a space effort, which is the traditional way of using that font. But other fonts, since now we have computers and thousands of fonts right, don't necessarily deep to spaces after a period. And some people have brought it back to screenplays. To Currier twelve points, I'm only putting one space, John says too. Why I just half the business says too. Half the business says one. You know, it's kind of a mocking Oh. Well, you know, if you want to give a way that you're older, put two spaces, you know. So you know people are rapidly only putting in one space after a period, because by god, they're not going to look older, you know. But um, best example of something that you know actually is so inconsequential. I don't even know why I talked about it. So you've got to give me another rule. I don't know some of them all the top of my head. I have to look at that list that was actually uh, because that list was more like definitive with kind of a hard and fast rules. But but m jim, are we at a time. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. No oh no, no, no, we're not. Actually uh uh the things that I was going to go to is starting like forty five minutes later it was originally, so I'm not I'm fine, okay, awesome, so we'll keep going. Say, I have a I have a ton of other questions, but that so, you know, so I think just to get back, you know, because we were talking about you know, uh, just screenwriting in general. So I know you you do a lot of work with the Writer's Lab. You actually also did the class of Creative Live, you know, so you know what the writers. I just want to say this look like, just so it's that publicly out there or you're calling the Writer's Lab there, it's still going on. Called safe Us. That's the name came up with because the idea is it's only the writer actors that are involved in it that are there. You can't bring in someone who has could be a buyer. And the purpose of that is experimentation means this complete experimentation you could do stuff and it might not work, but you don't want to do something that doesn't work in front of buyers. So we don't want that atmosphere, right, so I call it safe house. It's definitely still going. And so I mean you say you still do that, and then you still do. You know, you have the class of creative life. You know just about the art and craft of screenwriting. You know, so as you kind of have done this journey of screenwriting over the years. Um so you know again you you were able to break in in nineteen eighty nine with Fight Club, you know, as you kind of, uh, you have gotten all this now coledge over the years. You know, what are some of the you know, some of the things that you've seen or some of the advice that you could give to people who are out there just starting their own screenplay right now? Well, I mean I've probably said this before and somewhere else, but I mean I think you should people people who are beginning can really obsessed with their first script. Like this first script it's just make They're stuck with it. It's like I've got to get this perfect and it's and it has to people the one that it's And I think that when you I think you should right all the way through a first draft of it, type the end you're all the way through it, and then take your attention. Uh, you know in the typewriter or days, they would have said throw it in a drawer, So metaphorically throw it in the drawer and start writing a different screen player, because okay, then you have to then get all the way through the first draft spring play number two, and then take your attention off of it, and then a third screenplay all the way through to the end first draft. Then I didn't go back to first because the kind of objectivity and even the wisdom you've gained by writing two more three point makes you a different person looking at your first screenplay. You're a different writer. You're a better writer really, no matter why. You're a better writer if you've done three and you're going to look at it differently, and you're going to get hit with a lot of great ideas that would probably never have occurred to you if you had to have that much time away from it. And then when you've worked on that, well, your path is set. What do you go to? Where do you play number two? Wow, you're looking at that one like you never looked at it. If you do this with three in terms of working starting out writing for no money, right aspect, if you do a second draft of three screen different screen I think you've done almost all the work you need to do before turning your attention way more rapidly to the business part of it. But in terms of writing that that, you know, I don't think anything's lacking a second draft of three screenplays. I mean, you're You're just you're better. They're better, and you have more than one thing to show, which means that you're somebody who could be hired because you keep writing. You're I mean, you didn't just write one screenplay. I mean, how many people have written one screenplay? Is probably you know, half this country has written one screenplay, you know. But as that is that you've earned the right to like seriously change your focus to hustling on the business side, because you've done two drafts of three screenplays, the second of which is an enormous improvement over the first. And that, by the way, can all be done without a teacher, without an instructor or anybody, because and I'm not saying it should be without it could be enhanced greatly by being part of something where an instructor is you know, guided or whatever. But what I'm saying is, if you don't have that, if you can't afford that, if whatever, if you're in a town that doesn't have that, you can write three screenplays right, second drafts of all three, and you are a better writer. I don't care where you are or who's seening. You're a better writer and the second drafts are all better. Verse. That's just going to happen. So that's screenwriting without a teacher. You so screwing without a teacher. You I like that. So basically, if you were to take that, you know, just take that out even a step further. You know, just a person without you know, any type of you know, manual or anything to go by, they're just, you know, it's just them maybe a pad of paper and a pen in a room somewhere. Um, you know, what are your thoughts on you do you do you recommend outlining or do you think it should just be one of those cases where you just you have an idea and just kind of fly by the seat of your pants. Well, um, well, I was saying I hate I hate pitching, although I have done by the way. There have been times when I later I tried to start a conversational and said, no, we're not out of the conversation, Joh, what's the pitch? I didn't work. But despite the fact that I hate it, I have done good. Um, And how wise, I feel the same way about it. I'm not very very very surtasly to the idea of outlines. And here's the reason for it. An outline is something that documents what you're growing to write before you write it. Now, if you're telling your entire story before you tell your story, I mean, it fundamentally doesn't make sense. But also, an outline is clinical. It's it's a very bloodless clinical thing. I mean, if you have an emotional scene, you just say they have an emotional scene, Like wow, that just when I'm rid that should they have an emotional scene, I just broke down a good yeah, it's like no, of course not. An outline has nothing in it except literal blocked. I mean, you can take time to maybe describe character or whatever. You can you obviously have your character behave in their way in a way that just makes them distinct. You can do all this stuff in an outline, but ultimately it's still clinical. Now, I can't say don't write outlines, because don't be People who hire you want an outline first, and you're going to write it. So what I like to do is switch off my time between an outline and just some scene. The scenes give me what I call the sense of blood, which means I'm I'm in there. I'm with living reading people, and they're starting to come alive. They're behaving and speaking, and I can't go back to the outline, and I feel like I'm creating on that other level. So it allows me to feel better about the album. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, because I know that I've got these scenes where these characters really are working. So that's what I do. I kind of go back and forth between the two things. I mean, if they need an outline by X amount of time, obviously I'm not gonna be writing a lot of scene on the side, but some enough to just feel like I know these people you know, and they work and I'm excited about them. So okay, I'll just continue with the plot autumn. If I don't have to write it out, I don't think I ever do. I know, I don't consider it fine by the seat of my pants. I think that I have enough of an idea to move forward. But the thing about writing the script is if you allow yourself, you discover as you go, and that's really where the best stuff comes from. Something you discover you had pre thought it. You know, the characters were behaving and something happened, you know what's going to happen. Now, that's when it really gets but and exciting to do it, and that best can't be pre determined or wouldn't be what I'm talking about right right, But you do have to have an idea, you know. I mean, I think you have to have an idea. And I even think there's a form. This is that there is a mutative form of allied and script that is basically but it's sometimes it goes to full script right there in the outline. I think it goes back to outline form. I think they call it a script. But like combining script and treatment, um that that could be a way that works for you, that that is definitely something you're doing for yourself. I mean, I don't think there's anybody hires I want to script you know, if they want an outline, they want an outline. But in terms of how you work on your own, I think that's that that's a viable option to do it that way at first. You know, uh, when I was talking about Chuck earlier, one of the pieces of advice he gave me was to you know, have have some kind of opening, uh in mind, have some kind of ending in mind, and write the end. So it kind of so whatever your writing feels finished, and then he goes So you have your your beginning, and you kind of envision how this story would end. You're kind of imagining how the characters are transformed. So you're basically imagining this. You're not You're not like you know what has to happen, so to speak. If if I'm making this clear enough, but basically you kind of have the ending and NT and you're you're kind of letting you then have to start filling in all those gaps of how we got from point A to point you know B or point Z. Really yeah in the story. Yeah, I think I think, yeah, me, he's got a great point. I think I think I probably just think that way. I mean, I always think, like, because you're you're going in that direction. That's also why I think you should have the title. My joke about it is untitled dirty cop, Porno, ring, pizza, joint ools project or something untitled, and then it has all these words in it because you see that's with stuff that's not titled. Um, I don't think that helps you to write something, but it's just untitled. You know, a title points view in a lot of everything's in the same direction, shame story, character, they're all going in that direction, but that title is pointing. And sometimes you know, in the middle of the process that title you're holding onto that that's you're suspended above a huge abyss and that's the only thing you're holding onto sometimes, So I um, titles think the ending that's all good because you're allowing yourself to go, Okay, I'm going to get there, but I'm gonna I'm gonna discover how I get there, which is great. Definitely, yeah, because that kind of takes away from the kind of um, like you mentioned, where it's kind of robotic or kind of you know, are I guess cliche where you kind of have an outline and it's kind of set in stone. But the problem is it's not spontaneous. It feels kind of contrised, you know what I mean, it's kind of the story by formula. Yeah, I mean, I I'm not even necessarily saying you all like makes you write down cliches or you know what I mean. You could be writing an outline with places. It's really fascinating. It's just that you're not. You're not playing with behavior action a dialogue at all, really, and you want to be in that, you know, Um, yeah, I mean yeah, because always could be completely written with wow, every idea this is. I'm not saying at all that they forced you come up with cliches. They don't. It's just not a script, that's all. Really. It kind of takes the emotion out right, because that's what you want, you know, you want the That's what I think. Yeah, I think, I mean, unless you're going to like go novelist on it and really shut you right, you know, because if you're writing a novel of yeah, and you can get all that, you can have, emotion, you can have, but that's a novel, you know, I mean, an outline is just telling me what happens in this show. That's not the same as a novel. And it's certainly not the same as a screenplay, right right. And and that's why when I you know, imagine with with that advice that you just gave, and you're the one that Chuck gave too, it's kind of like you can see how Fight Club kind of came together from that. Um, you know, you start off with a guy who absolutely you know has something missing in his life, and he ends with you know, um well spoiler alert everybody, just in case you haven't seen it yet. Um, you end up with you know him at the end, with with Marla and they've just blown up a bunch of buildings in Wilmington, Delaware, right right. I mean the book had a coda, which we just think it wouldn't have worked. The book doesn't stop there, right, which is too Yeah uh yeah. I mean he realized he had to he had to create this person to be everything he couldn't get himself to be, you know, and then he didn't need this person more. And this person was like insane and pointed a lot of stuff that had to be stopped. Yeah. Um, but it's kind of post writers Jim, right, Yeah, yeah, alter ego and it ends up consuming you. Yeah, that's true. Well, yeah, that was happening to me right before. Wherever you were calling, I would be like right in the middle of this, and I fixed it. But yeah I was done. So all is okay. Uh So you know, uh, you know, Jim, I wanted to ask, you know, uh with you know, we've been talking about screenwriting and everything like that. You know, uh, what what are you currently working on? I mean, oh, sorry, go ahead, no, no, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say, like, you know, I know you can't go to details, but you know, just in general, you know what kind of projects you work on? Now? Well, I mean, um, the screenplay gig so to speak that I have is doing an adaptation, uh actually a series graphic novels um to come from South Korea, and we're changing, you know, I mean that we're we're departing from the source material in a lot of ways. But it's you know, it's it's it could be put you called in the action genre. But of course within that, I try to do as much character work as possible and make it relate to the action that's happening. If they do have to be like, there has to be some breathtaking action, and I think sometimes I find that more challenging anything. It's like, what's going to make this a different kind of moment of action? So um, but anyway, yeah, I'm doing that, and we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Let's see that there's some there's some things that are just honing the pitches for television, which is one of the pitching industry. And so I don't know, I divide my time out to me these things. So basically, do you decide what to work on, you know, just based upon your I mean, do you juggle projects a lot? Is what I'm trying to say. Do you juggle projects multiple projects at one time? Yeah, I mean I have. It's usually, um, they're stacked so they're sort of legally protected from each other in a way that you know, if you won't start this until this whatever. But if that happens. But if not, if I'm just wearing one thing for pay, then I'm still spending some time working on ideas for other things, you know, my own ideas. Um, so it gives me a lot to do. So so, Jim, I wanted to ask, are you ever going to direct your own film? Would you ever consider directing your own film. Um, I don't know. I've been about three or four screenplay started that are The impulse was that I would direct him, but I have never got them finished, but I probably should. I've done some shorts that are not really for public distributed. They were just exercises and I found that it was a mentality I could get into. Um, but it you know, it does involve every single human being around you is looking at you for an answer, you know, all the time, so it's intense. But to answer the question, I think it's possible I might. So basically, did you go into this set of Fight Club and see like what Fincher was going through and you were like, There's no way I'm doing that. Screw that? Well, I mean you couldn't really tell, you know. For I think what I what I know from director to short is you can't watch the director and know what it feels like. You can't guess what it feels like. You can't do You have no consen because when you're directed, then you know, there's only one way to know what it's like with everybody is looking at you for the answer, and the next answer and the next dange and that is, if you're in a position you can watch someone else, but I think you could have an idea of it, and you probably have some idea of it, but you don't know until you're doing it. And you know, I watched him and his master detail. I think all this stuff came to him instinctually. Just it was just amazing. You know, it had been really great just to work with him on the scriptum meaning not to talk about has changed this change that. That was a lot of fun. And I know that I didn't see it, but I know I can kind of demand, you know, and the crew, I mean, I just saw everything looking like it was being shot by a master, which it was. Yeah, so it was great. You know, I actually had on uh Bob signs. Bob was an actually was an actual cab driver in Zodiac, also directed by David Fincher. So he was he was he was telling an anecdote that uh he was. He was so him Bob as the cab driver is driving Jake Joe on Hall and they did about one hundred takes of this and finally Jake Joe just just popped his head into you know, he got out of the cab and this and that, so he looked in. He goes to Bob. He goes, Bob, do you want to do this anymore? And he goes, what do you mean? He goes, do you want to do this this scene anymore? Because I don't? Uh, And he went up to David like so, and Jake bumped to David Fincher goes, I just can't do this anymore because David, we have a hundred takes me getting out of a cab at some point it has to look good. And Dave was like, no, no, no, no no, and then Jake so so Jake goes, you know, you know, he goes, you know what, I'm done. He goes, it's finished. And my friend Bob was still singing the cab like should I get out of her? As this thought? I don't know, but uh but yeah, yeah, I'm just a funny a funny story. I told Bob. I said he should have just kind of staying, you know, just kind of drove the cab off at that point and called it, called it a day. But now he um, I think that would actually be funny if he just drove off the set. He left exactly. Yeah, no, I mean I never saw anything bad intensely repeated myself. But you know, certainly he he would shoot and sometimes it wasn't because you know, every take is wrong until I get the right one. Sometimes he was doing things that have choices, so he do them a little differently, you know. So I didn't see anything like that where you described um, but yeah, it reminds me. I think there's a in the seventies. You know, there was a movie where the director said, well, it was the actor who wanted to keep doing takes, the movie star, that is, and the director said, uh, okay, well I'm done with this today. As you left, and the actors kept doing the movie star, I chpter doing he takes it, you know, because he controlled the situation really so um. Anyway, that's that's It's just funny. That reminds me that what you're saying, because you know, it's just because you know, that's a mistake I made. I'm just doing my short films. Was I didn't get different. The takes weren't different for different choices. Uh. That's something I learned, and I was like, you know, I should have did this, I shouldn't do that. So when I started making other ones, I would make sure that different takes. You know, things were said differently. Uh, you know there was different different you know, reactions, big small stuff like that. You know, so that you have something in the editing room to choose from when you're picking and choosing all your you're piecing all this together, right right. Yeah, Um, I think it's pretty smart do that. I don't know what was going on with the cats and so, yeah, but I do think that having choices as smart. I mean, and I saw him do it, so it just seemed like, yeah, it could be this that I think that's well pretty intelligent. Well that's why I get David Fincher on this podcast to talk about it. So, and I'd be willing to bet you, Jim ten dollars that he probably would say, I have no idea what you're talking about, so because he wouldn't remember me. Everything does seem instinctible, if that's what you mean. He does seem to like it just sort of comes out of it because he's been asked, what do you realize that this pattern and this what end the way that person behaved? Whether you must have purposely done that, and like he has this looked like what are you talking about? But he is doing it. The fact that he's doing it instinctually doesn't change the fact that he's doing and he knows he's getting where he likes, you know. Um, so he's operating off instincts. Is really a good idea for him. It's just uh worked out well. Yeah, yeah, definitely it has worked out well. Um you know, the Growth of Dragons had to Zodiac Fight Club. Um, and you know it just he's uh, you know, he's a he's a machine. Um. Definitely, definitely one of the best directors working today, you know, there about it. Yeah. So and when I when I was when I was working with him, you know, there was it was it was just maybe after slightly after a time or maybe it was still during a time when some people were saying, you know, these visual directors, these MTV directors you know or whatever, I guess meaning you know, obsession something visual or cutting a lot or I don't know what it was. And when we worked, when we sat down and talked about the scriptica, it was a hundred percent good talking about everything character, plot, you know, scene structure. He was fantastic. I never saw anything he wasn't good at. Actually, I mean he doesn't particularly right himself. But I mean, I'm just saying in terms of dealing with other people that he's working artistically with, he he had everything. I mean they were calling him. I don't know. I think I probably after seven I think everybody got it, this guy is amazing whatever, but possibly before that. Oh, the visually obsessed, Well he isn't. He's obsessed with every part. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Every all minute, and he thinks about all of them really well held back in So I'm assuming he always said, you know, right, which is which is great? Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, because sometimes you know, uh, I remember, I remember when they were saying, like the MTV generation of directors, the one they always pointed to was Guy Ritchie. Um if you've ever seen Lockstock or Snatch, I don't know if you have, Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah absolutely. And you know, I think they were great films, but like you know, when people were always saying native things about them, and you know, in the reviews it was always about how it's an MTV style of editing and shooting, et cetera. I just think it's it was I don't agree with that assessment. I just think that sometimes when people don't know what they're actually looking at or maybe it's a it breaks the mold of what they're used to it kind of it kind of breaks it kind of breaks that mold, and they can't kind of handle that change, if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, at the time I'm talking the period of time I'm talking about, it was kind of like that was the the theme to attack, you know, that was the that was the popular target for certain critics. You know, not at all, but I remember that it sort of was its own thing, like let's go after those IMPV directors. You know. It's like, first of all, they're all different sely, you know, they think about everything. I'm assuming. I mean, I can't speak for every everyone who was accused of being that way, but you know, I think they think about everything. Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and they and if anyone's talking about them, they have to be on something right, right, If somebody even knows your name, if somebody even knows your name, you've got to be doing something right. Oh right, Yeah, I heard the work goes and actually, you know, I am sort of creeping up on the time Moore, I'm gonna have to go m no problem. Well, actually, Jim, I was gonna say this what parameters were? So I told you it's it's uh, it's my you know, it's just this uh, this idea that you know, because we had I know, we had a time schedule, but uh, I didn't know now that you were able to go a little bit over. But you know, Jim, actually I just have one final question, and just in closing, do you want to put a is there anything you want to say that we didn't talk about, or anything you want to say now to kind of put a period at the end of this whole conversation, any part, any parting wisdom, anything, Well, you know, I think I did it. That was the thing I did, was the three scripts with somebody starting. I mean, uh, it's probably the other thing would be to read screenplays. So I mean, I mean a lot um I have read online somebody saying that they've gotten this advice. Who's going to sit around and read? Well, no, I don't. You know, I don't think you should spend all your time reading screenplays when you're not writing. But it's a good idea to have a flow of them going and kind of keep up with reading them. I don't mean keep up with as in the most current you could be reading screenplay from the thirties or something, but just keep reading them. You know. It doesn't have to consume all your time to assume that much of your time. But it's a good idea to just because I mean, you know, they're though they are in the format, but they're different. There's different things about different screenplays. I think that. And you can even read you know, there's different sort of setups. You can for yourself, like I'm going to see a movie, then read the screenplay. It's by the way, it was just a better idea than doing it the other way around, because read the screenplay that you go to the video you've you've already read it or you know, if it's a classic or whatever, you've seen it maybe a while back, go back and see what the it's like to read the screenplay. And I think that is a good part of the exercise of learning it. And it's And no, I don't think anyone should be like buried under a pile of scripts or something, or they're all in the computer whatever they are, Uh don't yeh. Had. I don't think. I'm not saying it has to be overdone, but I think it should be sort of steady practice, you know, because it helps. It could be kind of like the fight club a house, Jim, where instead of you know, reading a bunch of of of old magazines, it's just old screenplays. They're just reading old screenplays. Yeah, I guess, But as I said to you, I'm not telling anyone if they should overdo it umball. Once it just many as possible, and once it's just just just sort of like, you know, just sort of keep keep them going. That's all, you know, Jim. Before we go, I just want to tell you a quick little anecdote, very quickly. One time a friend of mine had who it was. It was like, he called me up and he goes, hey, Dave, can I ask you for help with something? He goes, I have his friend. He lives, you know, in the middle of nowhere, and he needs some help with some it stuff and this and that, and I go, well, and you know, he talks me into it. So you know, I say fine, because I did kind of sort of go in that general direction. Anyway, it was gonna go pass where I needed to go, but you see you kinda you gotta get where I'm going with this. So the guy on the way goes, oh, yeah, he goes their house. I call it the fight Clubhouse, and I go why he goes, well, well, way do you see it? So we get there, Jim, and the house was just like the house and fight Club. It was like falling apart. There was like exposed wires everywhere, and I'm just like, what the are they squatting in this house? So eventually with the guy, so as I'm helping the guy out with his computer, which thankfully, thank god, it was really really easy, he starts telling me how Justin Bieber had been tweeting at him and I looked at him. I go Justin Bieber. He goes, yeah, he's talking to me privately. He's on tour and he's talking me privately, and he's like, you want to see these tweets? And I go, yes, I want to see these tweets and direct messages and it's clearly some dude just just fucking with them. And this guy had no clue, and I'm like, all right, man, you know best to luck with that man, and uh, I gotta go fix him and He's like, hey, you should come back sometime, you know, thanks for all this help. And I'm like, now, no, it's cool, man, Yeah, I'll definitely come back some time to the to the house. And uh So I left there and I told my friend the whole when I when I when we were leaving, I told my friend, I said, don't ever ask me to do this again. I said, I literally felt like I was about to get stabbed in that house at any point in time. But uh but it was funny because it was they called they called it the fight Clubhouse. Uh, and it was just it was just that that that's the anecdote I wanted to tell you, Jim, But um but you know, so just in closing, Jim was probably, yeah, there's probably other house like that, all of it. I've seen a few houses like that in Philadelphia, Um, because that's where I'm actually at. And I've seen a few houses where it's just you walk in there there's you know, waters dripping in from the third floor all the way down to the basement. Uh, and You're like, why the hell has in this house just been you know, bulldozed or demolished. But uh, you know, but uh so just in closing gym. Where can people find you out online? There's no there's no seeing it. Um right, I could be bad about remember just check in on social media anyway. That's it. Well, you know, I mean you and I municated on Twitter. Who Jay Kay, Jim Oules, thank you so much for coming on, sir. Well, thank you Dave. I'm glad we did it. It was a lot of stuff. I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. 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