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285: Creating an Environment that Works for Neurodivergent Kids, with Caroline Thor · Beautifully Complex

0:03
Speaker 1: Start to put an emphasis on we are all responsible
0:07
Speaker 1: for our space as a family. It's not just down
0:11
Speaker 1: to mom or mom and dad to make sure that
0:13
Speaker 1: everything's picked up and tidy and make it something that
0:17
Speaker 1: you do together as a family daily. And I don't
0:20
Speaker 1: mean like for hours, I mean literally ten minutes.
0:25
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
0:29
Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
0:34
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
0:37
Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
0:40
Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back, everybody.
0:49
Speaker 2: I'm really excited today to have Caroline Thor with me
0:52
Speaker 2: to talk about creating an environment, helping our kids create
0:57
Speaker 2: an environment that really works for them, that helps with
1:00
Speaker 2: some aspects or traits of their neurodivergence, including the ways
1:08
Speaker 2: that we talk to them about structuring their environment, which
1:12
Speaker 2: I think is so important because as parents we often
1:15
Speaker 2: just sort of default to dictating, to giving instructions, and
1:19
Speaker 2: then when it doesn't work out per our instructions, I
1:23
Speaker 2: think we get lost and we just want to keep
1:26
Speaker 2: adding pressure at that point, and the goal is to
1:30
Speaker 2: find what works for each kid and to be able
1:33
Speaker 2: to support them in that way. So I'm really excited
1:36
Speaker 2: that Caroline is going to share some of those insights too,
1:39
Speaker 2: just about having the conversations in a way that's effective
1:42
Speaker 2: and then effective strategies on top of that. Caroline, will
1:46
Speaker 2: you start by talking about who you are and what
1:50
Speaker 2: you do?
1:51
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, Thank you so much for having me here today, Penny.
1:54
Speaker 1: My name is Caroline. As you said, and as you
1:57
Speaker 1: can probably hear, I'm British and I am a professional
2:01
Speaker 1: organizer and con Mari consultant. I live in Germany and
2:06
Speaker 1: have been for the last nineteen years. And I have
2:09
Speaker 1: three kids who are now seventeen, fifteen, and twelve, one
2:16
Speaker 1: of whom has autism and ADHD, and another child has ADHD.
2:22
Speaker 1: So we're a very neurodiverse family too.
2:25
Speaker 2: Awesome. Will you, I think, start by talking about what
2:29
Speaker 2: is the con Mari method and what is your approach
2:33
Speaker 2: to organization.
2:35
Speaker 1: Yeah. I am obsessed with the conn MARII method.
2:38
Speaker 2: I love it.
2:38
Speaker 1: It changed my life. So the con Mari method has
2:42
Speaker 1: three main things that run through it. The first one
2:46
Speaker 1: is that we are looking at how we want to
2:49
Speaker 1: live before we start decluttering and organizing, so we're like
2:53
Speaker 1: visualizing our ideal lifestyle and that includes your family. So
2:58
Speaker 1: especially when you have children who have specific needs, it's
3:02
Speaker 1: really important to first look at how does our home
3:05
Speaker 1: need to be in order to support all of us,
3:08
Speaker 1: rather than it just being a glorified storage unit, which
3:11
Speaker 1: is what very often happens with our homes these days.
3:14
Speaker 1: The second thing is that we only keep things that
3:17
Speaker 1: spark joy for us, which means things we love, that
3:20
Speaker 1: are functional, that we need that make life easier, which
3:23
Speaker 1: means we just have less stuff in our homes once
3:25
Speaker 1: we've decided what those items are. And then the third
3:29
Speaker 1: and final thing, which is the thing that I think
3:31
Speaker 1: helps our kiddos the most, is that everything has a
3:35
Speaker 1: place to go back to. So we organize everything with
3:39
Speaker 1: a system so that things are grouped together in categories
3:42
Speaker 1: and everyone in the home knows that's where this category
3:46
Speaker 1: goes back to, which means it's great for you as
3:49
Speaker 1: mum because everyone can support you with tidying up as well,
3:52
Speaker 1: which is what I love about it the most.
3:56
Speaker 2: I have a brain that is automatically trained on every
4:00
Speaker 2: thing has a home and a place, and I live
4:03
Speaker 2: with three people who don't, and so I'm constantly like, Oh,
4:07
Speaker 2: these scissors aren't where they go, This isn't where it goes, right,
4:10
Speaker 2: because that's the way my brain works, and we've been
4:13
Speaker 2: able to create systems to support that better for everyone.
4:17
Speaker 2: But I love that the method that you're talking about
4:20
Speaker 2: starts with thinking about what we want our environment to
4:25
Speaker 2: be like, rather than just adopting whatever we think the
4:31
Speaker 2: definition of organization is. So instead of trying to fit
4:35
Speaker 2: like that norm into our lives, we're taking what we
4:41
Speaker 2: want our lives to be and finding the structure that
4:44
Speaker 2: works for that. And that just really aligns with what
4:48
Speaker 2: we need to be doing with neurodivergent kids as well. Right,
4:51
Speaker 2: it's really individualized.
4:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And it really is a game changer because
4:58
Speaker 1: we as humans tend to collect things, and when we
5:03
Speaker 1: start to have too much stuff that isn't any longer
5:08
Speaker 1: supporting us, perhaps things from a previous phase in our
5:11
Speaker 1: lives that we've moved on and we don't do that
5:13
Speaker 1: craft anymore or that hobby, or we've grown out of
5:17
Speaker 1: those clothes, then it just becomes clutter. And so actually
5:21
Speaker 1: knowing that these things don't service anymore and the same
5:24
Speaker 1: for our kids. You know, are their toys appropriate? Are
5:28
Speaker 1: the things they have in their space appropriate? Are they
5:30
Speaker 1: supporting them? Do they feel comfortable with them? These are
5:34
Speaker 1: all questions that we need to ask before we can
5:37
Speaker 1: even start making those changes. And that's what really makes
5:40
Speaker 1: the difference.
5:41
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I know at my neurodivergent kid as a collector,
5:46
Speaker 2: he is about to turn twenty two, and he still
5:49
Speaker 2: hangs on to like things that brought him joy when
5:52
Speaker 2: he was five, right, Like, Yeah, he doesn't like to
5:55
Speaker 2: get rid of anything that he has a good memory
5:59
Speaker 2: soated with. So how do we work on that? How
6:04
Speaker 2: do we work on finding ways to help our kids
6:07
Speaker 2: let go of some of that extra stuff because I
6:10
Speaker 2: think in the end, simplifying probably serves them more. Yeah,
6:16
Speaker 2: would you agree with that?
6:17
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yeah. Less makes it easier to keep the space tidy.
6:23
Speaker 1: And especially if you have a kid who perhaps has
6:27
Speaker 1: an ADHD diagnosis, they are going to find it really
6:31
Speaker 1: hard to keep their space tidy. So I have two
6:35
Speaker 1: of these children in my home, and one child really
6:39
Speaker 1: really struggles with keeping their space tidy. And we've actually
6:43
Speaker 1: found that by trying to impose what we feel is
6:48
Speaker 1: an acceptable level of tidy on them. We were stressing
6:52
Speaker 1: them out. We work this out quite a few years
6:54
Speaker 1: ago by saying, come on, it needs to be tidied
6:56
Speaker 1: up each day, we need to put away. They were
6:59
Speaker 1: getting really stressed and uncomfortable with that, so we backed
7:02
Speaker 1: off and have said, okay, it's your space. How would
7:07
Speaker 1: you like it to be. What is a level that
7:10
Speaker 1: you feel is acceptable for you. That means we can
7:13
Speaker 1: still get in and vacuum the floor, and we can
7:16
Speaker 1: dust around when we need to once a week, but
7:20
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable in your environment because they need this
7:23
Speaker 1: stuff around them. It seems to it almost seems to
7:26
Speaker 1: form a cocoon for her. So that's really important. I
7:30
Speaker 1: think to look at each child and talk to them
7:33
Speaker 1: if they're old enough to be able to have those
7:35
Speaker 1: conversations with you, and work out what do they feel
7:38
Speaker 1: comfortable with. And as you said with your son, there
7:41
Speaker 1: are things that they collect and having those things in
7:45
Speaker 1: their environment gives them sort of a safety, a security.
7:49
Speaker 1: They don't need to let it all go. But perhaps
7:52
Speaker 1: if the collection has got to the point where it's
7:54
Speaker 1: taking over the whole space. So you might have a
7:57
Speaker 1: kid who has bought every Lego set that's been built
8:01
Speaker 1: or developed and has built them all and wants them
8:03
Speaker 1: all displayed. Every every surface in the house is taken
8:06
Speaker 1: over with lego. Yeah, okay, which is your favorite? If
8:10
Speaker 1: you could only choose one, which one do you absolutely love?
8:14
Speaker 1: So whatever your child's collection is, you can start from
8:17
Speaker 1: that point, and we don't then need to make a
8:20
Speaker 1: decision that day about which ones we let go, but
8:23
Speaker 1: just to sow that seed of some of these are
8:25
Speaker 1: more special than others. What thing from that collection that
8:29
Speaker 1: you've had since you were four years old? Is your
8:32
Speaker 1: favorite one from them? And then another day, oh, which
8:36
Speaker 1: of these do you like the least? And why is that?
8:39
Speaker 1: Why don't you like that one as much as the
8:42
Speaker 1: one you told me last week you absolutely love the most.
8:45
Speaker 1: Try to get them to start thinking about why they
8:48
Speaker 1: really like some things and not so much other things,
8:52
Speaker 1: And then slowly you can work to the point where
8:56
Speaker 1: you can say, okay, well, if we had this shelf available,
8:59
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be great if we could put all your
9:01
Speaker 1: favorite ones on display here? But there wouldn't be room
9:05
Speaker 1: for all of them, So which would be your favorite ones?
9:08
Speaker 1: And then you can help them a bit by saying, look,
9:10
Speaker 1: we understand this is really important to you. We're not
9:13
Speaker 1: gonna make you get rid of them. Let's pack them
9:16
Speaker 1: really carefully into a box for you, and we can
9:19
Speaker 1: store them in the cellar and now in the garage
9:22
Speaker 1: or wherever, and just get them used to the idea
9:25
Speaker 1: that these things don't have to be in their space
9:27
Speaker 1: and they can still feel safe because the things haven't
9:30
Speaker 1: been got rid of. And then my son who's twelve,
9:35
Speaker 1: he suddenly decided about six months ago that his manga
9:41
Speaker 1: collection that he had spent hundreds of EUS on, he
9:46
Speaker 1: doesn't like mangas anymore. He's moved on to the next thing.
9:49
Speaker 1: So he sold them all. I helped him sell them
9:52
Speaker 1: online and he made a lot of money, and then
9:54
Speaker 1: he was able to invest that money in his new
9:57
Speaker 1: passion that he has at the moment, helping them understand
10:01
Speaker 1: that there is a value sometimes to these things because
10:04
Speaker 1: they've been collecting them, and that there are ways of
10:07
Speaker 1: letting them go that may give financial reward or may
10:12
Speaker 1: help other kids that are less fortunate that can't afford
10:15
Speaker 1: to have these things. Going around Christmas time to sell
10:20
Speaker 1: things is great, like November onwards, because lots of people
10:23
Speaker 1: are looking for great gifts for their kids. So that's
10:26
Speaker 1: a really great time. So that's how I would go
10:28
Speaker 1: about it with kids who have a real attachment to things,
10:32
Speaker 1: But we have to respect the fact that they love
10:35
Speaker 1: these things. And we wouldn't be very happy if someone
10:39
Speaker 1: came into our space and said, right, you need to
10:42
Speaker 1: get rid of three paintings today, when the ones we've
10:44
Speaker 1: got hanging on our wall we love them all. So
10:47
Speaker 1: we have got to be respectful of that and give
10:50
Speaker 1: them some autonomy over their belongings, but also help them
10:54
Speaker 1: start to understand why they perhaps love some things more
10:57
Speaker 1: than others, and that perhaps might help reduce the collection
11:00
Speaker 1: over time.
11:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're having conversations about those attachments. Yeah, we're
11:07
Speaker 2: digging deeper. We're figuring out what that is and helping
11:10
Speaker 2: our kid explore what that is. And that's a great
11:13
Speaker 2: first step to I think, to building awareness in our kids.
11:18
Speaker 2: And I think all of us do this. We just
11:20
Speaker 2: collect stuff. Sometimes we feel like stuff makes us feel better,
11:24
Speaker 2: you know today we feel like we need this thing,
11:27
Speaker 2: and we don't really think any more deeply about it,
11:32
Speaker 2: and you know, then we end up with too much
11:35
Speaker 2: stuff and it's not serving us or bringing us joy.
11:39
Speaker 2: I wanted to really highlight that you brought safety into
11:43
Speaker 2: this conversation and a sense of safety, and that sometimes
11:48
Speaker 2: things can make us feel safe because we know that
11:53
Speaker 2: when our nervous system feels safe, things are more doable.
11:57
Speaker 2: You know, our kids are feeling good, so they're able
12:02
Speaker 2: to do good. And so I think that it's so
12:07
Speaker 2: super important that we are focusing on that sense of
12:12
Speaker 2: safety in this aspect too, in every aspect, you know,
12:16
Speaker 2: we think about it like kids who struggle to go
12:18
Speaker 2: to school, Oh, well, they don't feel safe in that environment.
12:21
Speaker 2: What is it about that environment? Or you know, like
12:23
Speaker 2: for me, I have social anxiety, so my body and
12:26
Speaker 2: my brain and my emotions, you know, my thinking don't
12:30
Speaker 2: feel safe in social environments where I don't know anyone, right,
12:34
Speaker 2: So there's so many ways that that comes up, But
12:37
Speaker 2: I don't think we think about it when we think
12:40
Speaker 2: about belongings as much as we need to. And then
12:44
Speaker 2: that brings up to this piece that's the emotional component
12:49
Speaker 2: of the things that our kids have and their ability
12:53
Speaker 2: to heart with them or not part with them to
12:57
Speaker 2: keep that environment more simple, yeah, which we definitely struggled with.
13:02
Speaker 2: My kid is like one of your kids that you described, Like,
13:05
Speaker 2: we struggle so much with keeping that room cleaned up.
13:11
Speaker 2: And what I have found over the years is that
13:14
Speaker 2: it doesn't really notice it. Like I'm acutely aware when
13:18
Speaker 2: I open the door that it is chaotic, it is messy,
13:22
Speaker 2: there's trash, like, there's so many things, right, and it
13:26
Speaker 2: just doesn't bother him, like it doesn't trigger him. Right. So,
13:30
Speaker 2: how do we help kids who kind of don't care
13:34
Speaker 2: about what is around them in the same ways that
13:38
Speaker 2: we do. How do we help them to build these
13:41
Speaker 2: awarenesses and skills.
13:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you as a family start to
13:48
Speaker 1: put an emphasis on we are all responsible for our
13:53
Speaker 1: space as a family. It's not just down to mom
13:57
Speaker 1: or mum and dad to make sure that everything's picked
13:59
Speaker 1: up and tied and make it something that you do
14:03
Speaker 1: together as a family daily. And I don't mean like
14:05
Speaker 1: for hours, I mean literally ten minutes. Okay, So after dinner,
14:09
Speaker 1: perhaps in the evening, for ten minutes, say okay, we're
14:13
Speaker 1: all going to look round the living spaces downstairs. Can
14:17
Speaker 1: anyone see something that belongs to them? Could you take
14:20
Speaker 1: it back up to your bedroom. We start to take
14:23
Speaker 1: responsibility for this space as a whole, so that sort
14:27
Speaker 1: of the communal areas, and then of course you move
14:30
Speaker 1: on to their own spaces, as you say, with your
14:33
Speaker 1: son's bedroom, and it is really hard because, as you say,
14:38
Speaker 1: they don't see it, they literally don't see it. And
14:42
Speaker 1: it's very often the case that they become so overwhelmed
14:47
Speaker 1: with what would I do with all this stuff anyway?
14:49
Speaker 1: How would I even start to tidy up that they
14:52
Speaker 1: don't know where to begin, So like you open the
14:55
Speaker 1: door and you're overwhelmed. If you asked him to tidy up,
14:59
Speaker 1: like can you tidy this today, he would feel overwhelmed
15:02
Speaker 1: as well. So I really feel, from having worked with
15:06
Speaker 1: a lot of clients now and a lot of them
15:08
Speaker 1: have an ADHD diagnosis, that when you start to feel overwhelmed,
15:15
Speaker 1: it's actually easier just to say, well, it's better not
15:17
Speaker 1: to do anything that's less scary. As humans, we don't
15:21
Speaker 1: like change. We would rather stick with what we know,
15:25
Speaker 1: and so this overwhelmed is something you have to slowly
15:29
Speaker 1: support with. So you could, for example, say one week, right,
15:34
Speaker 1: let's have a go at seeing how many pieces of
15:37
Speaker 1: clothing we can pick up in here, because there's often
15:39
Speaker 1: clothes lying around in these spaces and sort of help them,
15:43
Speaker 1: get them all into a wash basket, remove them to
15:46
Speaker 1: the spot from the space. Okay, well that makes a difference.
15:50
Speaker 1: Look how different that looks Now, it's going to be
15:52
Speaker 1: easier for you to find some other things if you
15:54
Speaker 1: haven't got clothes lying around everywhere, and then support them
15:57
Speaker 1: once the clothes are washed and folded to put them
16:00
Speaker 1: away somewhere, like, can you help me, where would you
16:03
Speaker 1: like these to go in your room? What is easiest
16:06
Speaker 1: for you for putting these away? Because what I did,
16:10
Speaker 1: the mistake I made with my daughter was that I
16:14
Speaker 1: tried to impose what I thought was a really great
16:17
Speaker 1: system for her for putting all her school stuff away.
16:20
Speaker 1: So I'd got these really cool draws and there was
16:23
Speaker 1: a different draw for each subject, and it was going
16:25
Speaker 1: to be super organized, and I labeled it all. It
16:28
Speaker 1: didn't work for her brain. It just she didn't use it,
16:32
Speaker 1: and I kept finding things like piled upon her desk.
16:34
Speaker 1: I was like, you've got a draw, why don't you
16:36
Speaker 1: put it in your draw? And it just didn't work
16:38
Speaker 1: for her. And then one day she suddenly organized it herself.
16:44
Speaker 1: She would you know how they have these days where
16:46
Speaker 1: they can do it most of the days they can't,
16:48
Speaker 1: and then suddenly one day is the day when they're
16:51
Speaker 1: in the flow and for some reason they feel like
16:53
Speaker 1: doing the thing and they can just do it. And
16:56
Speaker 1: she created this amazing system for her school stuff and
16:59
Speaker 1: since then everything's got a place. It would be chaotic
17:02
Speaker 1: for me, but it works for her and she can
17:05
Speaker 1: find everything and put stuff away, And it's important that
17:08
Speaker 1: they have ownership over that. So this would be the
17:12
Speaker 1: thing that I think is most important when you're trying
17:14
Speaker 1: to help a child, whatever age they are, to create
17:18
Speaker 1: order in their room and be able to keep it tidy.
17:21
Speaker 1: You need to take on board their ideas like where
17:25
Speaker 1: do you think would be a good place to put
17:27
Speaker 1: these what do you think would be the best way
17:31
Speaker 1: to store all your cuddly toys? Or where do you
17:34
Speaker 1: think would be a really good place to put all
17:36
Speaker 1: your legos? And they might have ideas about that. So
17:40
Speaker 1: they may have the idea that they would like all
17:43
Speaker 1: their lego bricks sorted into different colors to be put away.
17:47
Speaker 1: Most kids would not want to do that because it's
17:50
Speaker 1: like extra work, but for kids with the neurodivergency, that
17:54
Speaker 1: might actually be quite fun to have to sort them
17:56
Speaker 1: out and put them away acor into colours, or if
17:58
Speaker 1: you've got a kid that doesn't want to do that,
18:00
Speaker 1: then simplest thing is to get one bin and all
18:03
Speaker 1: the legos go into one bin. You've got to make
18:05
Speaker 1: it as easy as possible. And for kids with ADHD,
18:09
Speaker 1: if it's got more than one step to it, it's
18:12
Speaker 1: not going to happen because they'll get distracted on the
18:15
Speaker 1: way to the second step. So always keep it really simple.
18:20
Speaker 1: Don't overwhelm them with trying to do the whole room
18:23
Speaker 1: at once, pick at it like over weeks, literally over weeks,
18:26
Speaker 1: because also they don't notice the change in their room
18:30
Speaker 1: quite as much. Then if you're doing it gradually, whereas
18:33
Speaker 1: if you go in and do the whole room and
18:35
Speaker 1: suddenly it's like different, that is really going to make
18:40
Speaker 1: perhaps them unregulated. Their nervous system will be activated, and
18:45
Speaker 1: that is not what you want because then they won't
18:46
Speaker 1: be able to find stuff. Yes, it looks messy, but
18:49
Speaker 1: they know where everything is in that mess, So you
18:52
Speaker 1: have to be really sensitive to moving things and making
18:56
Speaker 1: sure they see where it's going and have some ownership
18:59
Speaker 1: over that.
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Speaker 2: families using able now to secure a brighter future for
20:09
Speaker 2: their loved ones. I love the idea of gradual change
20:20
Speaker 2: so that they don't lose that sense of security. And two,
20:24
Speaker 2: it really helps with overwhelm. I mean I learned that
20:26
Speaker 2: a long time ago with my own kid. Give one task,
20:30
Speaker 2: one piece of it. Go get those clothes. Let's put
20:34
Speaker 2: them in the laundry room right like the next day
20:37
Speaker 2: it's another thing and chipping away at that. I think
20:41
Speaker 2: in that way kids tend to be more receptive also,
20:47
Speaker 2: like who wants to go in and spend hours cleaning up?
20:50
Speaker 2: And you know, then we need those preventive strategies, which
20:54
Speaker 2: are the systems that we have. Asked our kids, what
20:58
Speaker 2: works for you? Is so like, I just can't hammer
21:02
Speaker 2: home that question more. It's so important because we can
21:08
Speaker 2: give them all the organizational tools in the world. If
21:12
Speaker 2: it doesn't work for them, it's pointless and it's probably
21:16
Speaker 2: adding stress, yeah, because they feel like they're disappointing us
21:19
Speaker 2: by not using what we took time to remind to them.
21:22
Speaker 2: So asking those questions and what advice would you offer
21:26
Speaker 2: to parents whose kids maybe can't be super clear about
21:30
Speaker 2: what they think will work for them or they don't know,
21:33
Speaker 2: how do you help them to discover that?
21:36
Speaker 1: I think this is where using visual cues comes in
21:39
Speaker 1: really really helpful. So if you've got, for example, a
21:43
Speaker 1: bin and you've got an image or what I used
21:47
Speaker 1: to do was I used to photograph the contents of
21:49
Speaker 1: the bin and then stick the photo on the outside
21:52
Speaker 1: so that they know what goes in there and say
21:55
Speaker 1: to them, right, I've had this idea. I think it
21:59
Speaker 1: would be really cool if we put all the legos
22:02
Speaker 1: in this bin at the end of the day or
22:04
Speaker 1: when you finish building something or whenever. But let's try it,
22:08
Speaker 1: and you need to tell me if it works for
22:12
Speaker 1: you or not, so I will ask you again in
22:14
Speaker 1: a week's time. Does this make you feel comfortable when
22:17
Speaker 1: we do this or does this make you feel a
22:20
Speaker 1: bit icky and it stresses you when I say we
22:23
Speaker 1: have to tidy up the legos. And they should be
22:26
Speaker 1: able to let you know whether this is something they
22:30
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with or not. And if it's clear they
22:32
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable. And you'll know if they feel uncomfortable because
22:35
Speaker 1: they won't want to participate in it. And I think
22:38
Speaker 1: this is the other thing. The mistake we make as
22:40
Speaker 1: parents is very often to say, okay, can you go
22:43
Speaker 1: and tidy your legos away and just expect that they
22:46
Speaker 1: do it. We need to be doing it with them.
22:49
Speaker 1: We need to teach them how to tidy up. It's
22:52
Speaker 1: not something that someone is necessarily born with this innate
22:56
Speaker 1: ability to tidy. I am naturally very very disorganized, which
23:01
Speaker 1: sounds crazy seeing as my profession is now helping people
23:04
Speaker 1: stay organized. But like my parents when I was a kid,
23:07
Speaker 1: used to say right, go and tide to your room,
23:08
Speaker 1: and I used to stand there completely overwhelmed. I used
23:12
Speaker 1: to go and get some plastic bags that Mum had
23:14
Speaker 1: brought home from the supermarket, stuff everything in the plastic
23:17
Speaker 1: bags and hide them under my bed. And my parents
23:19
Speaker 1: were none the wiser that that's how I tidied my room.
23:22
Speaker 1: But I could never find anything again. I just got
23:25
Speaker 1: loads of plastic bags, stuff with stuff under my bed.
23:28
Speaker 1: It was crazy. So as an adult, this is what
23:31
Speaker 1: I've had to learn. And this is why I say
23:33
Speaker 1: the Corn Murray method literally saved me. It wasn't until
23:37
Speaker 1: I learned this system that I had this aham moment
23:40
Speaker 1: of like, oh my goodness, it doesn't have to be difficult.
23:43
Speaker 1: How crazy is this? I can stay organized.
23:46
Speaker 2: It's not me.
23:47
Speaker 1: I'm not lazy, I'm not broken. I just didn't have
23:50
Speaker 1: the right way for me to do this. So I
23:53
Speaker 1: think that that is really important and to say to
23:56
Speaker 1: your kids, you know, we can try this and we
23:58
Speaker 1: can change it in stone. And if when you're doing
24:03
Speaker 1: tidying up with your children and showing them, look, we
24:06
Speaker 1: can take the bricks and put them in the bin
24:08
Speaker 1: if they help you. I always used to do it,
24:11
Speaker 1: putting a song on, We've got one song to tidy up,
24:14
Speaker 1: so that there's a bit of fun to it. We'd
24:16
Speaker 1: stop and dance in between, and then I'd go tidy
24:18
Speaker 1: up time, and we'd get back to tidying, and it
24:20
Speaker 1: was all a bit of a game. It was great
24:24
Speaker 1: because I would see which child was engaged and which
24:27
Speaker 1: wasn't out of my three, and if they weren't engaged,
24:30
Speaker 1: this clearly wasn't something that was sparking joy for them,
24:34
Speaker 1: and therefore I need to find another way with that
24:37
Speaker 1: child to get them involved and actually having fun with this.
24:41
Speaker 1: And I just had the most amazing moment the other week.
24:44
Speaker 1: We went to a live concert from this artist and
24:47
Speaker 1: it was his song that I always used to play
24:49
Speaker 1: for my tidy up music. And my girls, now seventeen
24:52
Speaker 1: and fifteen, started dancing to this song and suddenly turn
24:56
Speaker 1: around and looked at me with the biggest greens, and
24:58
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's the tidy up music, and they'd remembered,
25:01
Speaker 1: and I just like the connection we have built. It's
25:05
Speaker 1: time spent with them and it can be fun and
25:07
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be this arduous sure that ends
25:10
Speaker 1: up with everyone banging heads together and it turns into
25:13
Speaker 1: a fight. It can become something really beautiful. That is
25:16
Speaker 1: a way of connecting with them.
25:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that you're talking about doing it with
25:22
Speaker 2: them also because I don't think we were raised that way.
25:26
Speaker 2: I think, you know, culturally we're told to ask our
25:30
Speaker 2: kids to clean up their room, and they should I'm
25:32
Speaker 2: using air quotes, be able to do that right, And yeah,
25:35
Speaker 2: you know, there's so much research that shows that when
25:38
Speaker 2: people struggle with getting things done, having sometimes in the
25:42
Speaker 2: ADHD community is called a body double really helps. But
25:46
Speaker 2: also it I think takes the pressure off of our
25:49
Speaker 2: kids when we're there doing it with them. There's less
25:54
Speaker 2: pressure to be able to meet our expectations with out,
26:00
Speaker 2: you know, that support to do it.
26:03
Speaker 1: It's also really empowering for them when they start to
26:07
Speaker 1: realize that you can back off a little bit. It's like, oh,
26:11
Speaker 1: you're so good at this, now you don't need me
26:14
Speaker 1: helping you with this bit. I'll get on and do
26:16
Speaker 1: that while you do this, And that empowerment you're giving
26:20
Speaker 1: them that they are capable and able and you trust them.
26:24
Speaker 1: That is worth so much, and then it gives them
26:28
Speaker 1: the confidence to be able to start trying to tackle
26:30
Speaker 1: other things as well.
26:32
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Yeah. And I don't know if you
26:36
Speaker 2: know Seth Perlar. He's an executive function coach and I've
26:39
Speaker 2: had him on the podcast and in summers and different things,
26:42
Speaker 2: and think very highly of Hermie. He's a wonderful human.
26:45
Speaker 2: He has great strategies. And one thing he taught me
26:49
Speaker 2: quite a while ago was like, he said, you know
26:51
Speaker 2: what happens if you just walked into your son's room
26:54
Speaker 2: and you picked up a dirty dish off his desk
26:57
Speaker 2: and you walked out with it, And like, well, I
27:00
Speaker 2: don't know, shouldn't he be cleaning it up? Right? Because
27:04
Speaker 2: my assumption was if I do for him, he won't
27:08
Speaker 2: learn to do for himself, which is true in general,
27:12
Speaker 2: but sometimes if we take that action, it can spark
27:16
Speaker 2: more action. And what I found would happened was as
27:21
Speaker 2: soon as he was done with what he was doing,
27:24
Speaker 2: or if he could do it at that moment, he
27:26
Speaker 2: would get up and grab a couple more things and
27:29
Speaker 2: take them out of his room. And I didn't have
27:31
Speaker 2: to say a word. I didn't have to nag. I
27:33
Speaker 2: didn't have to remind right, And so sometimes I'll be like, hey,
27:37
Speaker 2: I think maybe your trash can in your room it
27:39
Speaker 2: looks a little full. I'm going to go grab you
27:42
Speaker 2: a clean bag, and so I bring that to him,
27:45
Speaker 2: and it helps to just get over that task initiation
27:49
Speaker 2: hurdle that I think sometimes we have. But it's been
27:52
Speaker 2: a really valuable thing for us that goes right with
27:56
Speaker 2: in line with what you're talking about. With doing it
27:59
Speaker 2: with them. Great we can start.
28:02
Speaker 1: And I think also we know our kids. We know
28:04
Speaker 1: the days when they're disregulated and they're not coping. It's
28:08
Speaker 1: really not worth in those moments trying to make them
28:12
Speaker 1: tidy up, or you just do it and if they can,
28:15
Speaker 1: they'll join in and help you, and if they can't.
28:17
Speaker 1: Find we have days when we don't feel like doing
28:20
Speaker 1: stuff either, but we get to choose not to do
28:22
Speaker 1: it on those occasions. They don't always feel like they
28:26
Speaker 1: have that choice. And it's really, I think, a beautiful
28:30
Speaker 1: thing if you can just do the thing, and yet
28:33
Speaker 1: they'll probably join in and help you, but there isn't
28:35
Speaker 1: an expectation there. I always say that we need some
28:38
Speaker 1: sort of radical acceptance about their rooms. It is how
28:41
Speaker 1: it is, and we can't change. The only thing we
28:45
Speaker 1: can influence is us and our actions. And as you say,
28:49
Speaker 1: by role modeling and showing them what's possible, then we
28:53
Speaker 1: stand the most chance that they will end up doing
28:55
Speaker 1: the thing.
28:57
Speaker 2: What are their strategies? Do we need to know about
28:59
Speaker 2: how helping our kids learn to manage their environments and
29:03
Speaker 2: ways that work for them.
29:05
Speaker 1: I think emphasizing for the older kids the benefit of
29:10
Speaker 1: them having a tidy space, like if you have a
29:14
Speaker 1: tidied up space where everything is, you'll know where to
29:17
Speaker 1: find that cable when you want to play with your
29:20
Speaker 1: xbox or whatever the thing is. And for little ones,
29:26
Speaker 1: if they have got a space where they can actually
29:29
Speaker 1: get stuff out and enjoy what they've got and play
29:33
Speaker 1: with it rather than being overwhelmed. So for younger kids,
29:37
Speaker 1: I always recommend not having all their toys available to them,
29:41
Speaker 1: so having some sort of toy rotation going on so
29:44
Speaker 1: that they've got perhaps less to choose from. This is
29:47
Speaker 1: great for you as a parent because it means less
29:49
Speaker 1: mess can be made and they're not going to feel
29:52
Speaker 1: overwhelmed and overstimulated and are they're more likely to sit
29:56
Speaker 1: and play for a little bit on their own or
29:59
Speaker 1: get into a game, or be able to concentrate on
30:02
Speaker 1: playing with you with something because they haven't got all
30:05
Speaker 1: this stuff in the periphery that's distracting them. So I
30:08
Speaker 1: think that is one of the things that I think
30:10
Speaker 1: is really really key. We've already said about modeling the behavior,
30:14
Speaker 1: because I think, as you said, that makes it just
30:18
Speaker 1: a more communicative activity for everybody. And I think the
30:24
Speaker 1: way we talk to our kids as well, giving gentle
30:27
Speaker 1: reminders rather than saying, go and tidy your room, things
30:32
Speaker 1: like oh, would it be okay if we try picking
30:36
Speaker 1: up some legos now, rather than insisting that it's done.
30:39
Speaker 1: And when we ask in different ways, we're more likely
30:42
Speaker 1: to get a positive response, and they might say oh
30:45
Speaker 1: not just at the moment, and you can say, well,
30:48
Speaker 1: perhaps we could do it in ten minutes. I'll come
30:50
Speaker 1: back in ten minutes, so that you're giving them some
30:52
Speaker 1: warning that this is what's going to happen, rather than
30:55
Speaker 1: them having to suddenly stop what they're in the middle
30:57
Speaker 1: of doing and have to sort of eve and then
31:01
Speaker 1: they're resentful, and you know, it just regulates them. This
31:04
Speaker 1: is where I find doing like ten minutes as a family,
31:07
Speaker 1: it becomes a routine that after dinner, this is what
31:11
Speaker 1: we're going to do, and then everyone can get on
31:13
Speaker 1: with what they would like to be doing. It then
31:15
Speaker 1: becomes the norm. And I work with a family recently
31:19
Speaker 1: and they actually had two quite small kids. The youngest
31:22
Speaker 1: was three, and I got them into the routine of
31:25
Speaker 1: after dinner, we're going to put this song on and
31:27
Speaker 1: we're going to tidy up the toys. And after three nights,
31:30
Speaker 1: the three year old sat at dinner and said, can
31:32
Speaker 1: we hurry up? I want to go and tidy.
31:35
Speaker 2: So it's so wonderful.
31:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can become something that's really fun, but there
31:41
Speaker 1: has to be sort of almost a routine to it.
31:44
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. Hearing you talking a lot about family
31:47
Speaker 2: culture and family structure and how helpful that can be,
31:51
Speaker 2: and you know, we're just creating a home ecosystem that
31:56
Speaker 2: works for the kids that we have being open to
32:01
Speaker 2: that and open to what they're telling us. I have
32:04
Speaker 2: one final question for you before we rap up. I
32:08
Speaker 2: would hope that you might share what the phrase beautifully
32:12
Speaker 2: complex means to you.
32:14
Speaker 1: Oh, for me, beautifully complex, it describes my children totally.
32:24
Speaker 1: It is a human that is made up of all
32:28
Speaker 1: these amazingly complex systems that perhaps the outside world see
32:37
Speaker 1: as broken needs fixing, but for me, there's a total
32:43
Speaker 1: beauty in it because we're seeing the world in a
32:46
Speaker 1: way that I actually think is how we all should
32:49
Speaker 1: be looking at the world. And yes, it's very complex,
32:53
Speaker 1: but I am so privileged to be part of their
32:58
Speaker 1: world because they have taught me so much about myself.
33:02
Speaker 2: I love that. That's amazing. Tell everybody where they can
33:06
Speaker 2: find YO to connect with you and learn more.
33:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, the best place is at my website, which is
33:12
Speaker 1: Caroline hyphenthor dot com. And if you add forward slash podcast,
33:18
Speaker 1: you can listen to my podcast Living Clutter Free.
33:21
Speaker 2: Forever, and I will link that up in the show
33:24
Speaker 2: notes for this episode, and you can find those show
33:28
Speaker 2: notes at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com Slash two eight
33:33
Speaker 2: five for episode two hundred and eighty five. You have
33:37
Speaker 2: given us so much permission to do things differently in
33:42
Speaker 2: this conversation, and I am so thankful for that and
33:45
Speaker 2: all of the other strategies that you've shared. I really
33:49
Speaker 2: appreciate you and your insights and the work that you're
33:52
Speaker 2: doing to help NERD divergent families.
33:55
Speaker 1: Thank you I appreciate having had the opportunities to talk
33:58
Speaker 1: to you. It's been wonderful.
34:00
Speaker 2: I will see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.
34:04
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If
34:07
Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't
34:11
Speaker 2: forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching
34:15
Speaker 2: at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at Thebehavior Revolution
34:20
Speaker 2: dot com.