Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / VAMPIRES and SLAVIC FOLKLORE with Prof. Stanley Stepanic
Transcript
- Zaza: Stanley Stepanic is an assistant professor of Slavic languages and literatures at the University of Virginia. He received his MA and PhD from the same institution. To date, he has published three textbooks that have been released in recent editions. These are Dracula or the Timeless Path of the Vampire. Russian and East European film and Russian folklore. In addition to such publications, Professor Stepanic has been very active in the public sphere giving a variety of presentations primarily concerning the vampire, which is what we're going to be talking about today. Professor Stepanic, welcome to Euro Trash. Stanley Stepanic: Hi, thanks a lot. Nice meeting ya. Hehehehe. Zaza: I'm super excited about this conversation. You don't even know. Stanley Stepanic: Oh! Okay! Zaza: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I'm from Eastern Europe, so I think Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: it goes Stanley Stepanic: I Zaza: with Stanley Stepanic: don't Zaza: the Stanley Stepanic: know. Zaza: territory. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: It seems that vampires cannot die in more ways than just one. It's not just that every generation gets its own definitive vampire. These days, it sometimes seems that like a third of pop culture rests on the shoulders of this one poor creature. It's gotten so far that we don't just have scary vampires anymore either. There's sexy vampires, there's superhero vampires, Stanley Stepanic: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Zaza: there's romantic vampires, there's even silly, stupid vampires. What is it about an undead humanoid that scurries at night drinking blood that makes us so perpetually fascinated? Stanley Stepanic: Wow, that's a, that would require a very, very long explanation, you know, because Zaza: We got time. Stanley Stepanic: we're, oh, we're looking at something here, you know, that, now, first off, I guess I should start by saying we actually don't know how old the vampire is. The earliest reference we have to the vampire being written down is an old Russian text from 1047 AD. And there the word that is used is upir, which you have in Russian and you still have it in Polish. Sounds slightly different. That's the oldest word we know of for this thing We call the vampire today, but that doesn't mean of course that was the year when it originated One time I did a can I say this one time? I did a video for Ted Ed and they have they have another video up about the vampire epidemic in Eastern Europe, you know, especially Serbian Epidemic in 18th century and they're like, yeah, so we have this video up and this is this is the time period when the vampire started I was like that You're at least 700 years off, actually. Zaza: Sorry, a vampire epidemic. What does that mean? Stanley Stepanic: So there have been a number of these throughout history, the most well-known one, they usually refer to it as the great vampire epidemic of the 18th century. But basically a vampire epidemic is when vampire hysteria would spread through parts of Eastern Europe and people would start digging up lots of bodies to find signs of vampirism and then do what's called a vampire burial, which is you do something to the corpse, chop off its head, cover it in garlic or something like that to make sure that the vampire attacks stop. And they... They all relate to disease epidemics is what they relate to. So, you know, the biggest one was 18th century starting right around 1725, but we have one from 1349 in Serbia that's pretty well known and stuff like that. So that's what the vampire epidemic is. Kind of like a witch craze, like hysteria spreading about vampires and people actually thinking they're real and, you know, doing various things. At any rate, so. So as I was saying, first off, the vampire is quite old. We don't know how old. The oldest we know of it's at least 1047 AD old. But so you have this idea in Slavic belief of this thing that comes back from the grave, which in most cases is a reanimated corpse. Doesn't have to be, but usually that's what it is. That's usually what you find in folklore. And then over time, what happened to, you know, just make this as brief as possible, and you can ask questions as you feel the need, is once the... The great vampire epidemic happens in the 18th century. That is really where the vampire as an idea starts to enter Western Europe, primarily at first by way of German. That's where they get the word, their vampire. This is where it first enters German language around 1726, coinciding with the start of the great vampire epidemic because soldiers who were German, Austrian, and Prussian and stuff like that, they were serving in Serbia to fight against the Turks, the Ottoman Turks. And when they were there, they were seeing people. Serbian peasants and stuff committing vampire burials and chopping off heads of corpses and burning them and stuff and they were like What are you doing? They said oh, we did it's a volunteer. What do you mean? They're like what's a volunteer? You know when they started to explain it these people then brought the stories back and they come back I'm really you gotta hear about this. Oh my god, and so once they start talking about it It becomes this big thing in academia because you know, that's the middle of the Enlightenment period basically and so everyone's talking about it it starts to become this big discussion. And so through that, you know, all these various academic discussions about whether vampires could be real or not, the idea sticks. It's debunked as being something legitimate by about 1755, 1768, and then by, you know, doctors basically, and Vienna primarily. And then eventually the word vampire enters English around 1734. And by that point, the idea had stuck and people were like, well, it's a bummer, it's not real, but this is a really... concept though. And so although you do have some brief moments where the vampire appears in literature and poetry, it's not what you think. I've seen some people refer to, there was this old poem, God what the heck was it called? Christabel, I forget. And like you know it's sort of vampire like but not really. It's not until you get to John Polidori's novella The Vampire from 1819 that you really get a popular culture rendition of something. So you basically They are now at that point appropriating Slavic culture, vampire, and they're re-envisioning it as something that applies to at that time, you know, basically British high society. And they make that, that's the first aristocratic vampire in history is the character called Lord Riven from the novella, The Vampire, 1819, predating Dracula by almost, you know, 80, 90 years or whatever, because Dracula was first released in 1897. So at that point, the vampire becomes a very popular theme in 19th century Gothic literature. So, You get all these different vampire characters and short stories that I don't even have time to discuss. One of the most well-known that everyone usually has heard of, at least, if they know anything about this, is Varnie the Vampire from 1845, 1847. And then you get Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu's Carmilla from 1871, 1872. Not the first female vampire, but the most well-known. And really the only one that people knew about at that time. And then Dracula, of course, eventually comes 1897. But Dracula's the tail end of practically a full century of vampire Zaza: Oh wow. Stanley Stepanic: stuff. Zaza: Right. Stanley Stepanic: So, Zaza: Just one quick question. Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: Is Stanley Stepanic: go ahead. Zaza: that why the vampire that we usually think of when somebody mentions a vampire is this Victorian dude, you know, not Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: really somebody from medieval Eastern Europe? Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, it starts with Lord Riven and then, you know, of course Dracula eventually becomes like the big Well-known image and it's based on all those previous models basically Um the novel Dracula, you know, I honestly a personal opinion, but I never liked the book I read it a number of times But the first like fourth of it, you know And usually lots of modern readers will say the same thing Modern readers will often say, you know The first like fourth of the book and the castle and stuff was cool But man after that I kept wondering why anyone talked about this Dracula as a whole doesn't really introduce anything new except the vampire turning into a bat very clearly doing that Well, not very clearly but clear enough. You're like, well he transformed into a bat and the vampire lacking a reflection Far as we know that's the first time it ever appears. Everything else has basically been done by that point But you know Dracula eventually becomes the big image. So after 19th century, you know vampire kind of dies off it's still there people knew about it, but Dracula as as a book, although it was still being published, it's not like a big seller like Harry Potter, you know, currently or something like that. What happens, of course, is a famous case where Nosferatu is released in 1922 against the wishes of the Stoker family. Florence Stoker, you know, was the copyright controller at that time. And there's always been a myth that the director of that film, F. W. Renow, and the company he worked for, Prana Film, or somebody out there, contacted Florence for permission. copyright permission, license basically, to make the movie. Never happened. So for some reason it was an oversight. We don't know why Murnau did that because he probably would have had a decent grasp of copyright law for novel to film translation. But for whatever reason, they don't do that. And when Florence finds out there's of course a famous lawsuit around those frat too that is eventually very well known and pressed by 1924. And so Prada Film declares bankruptcy because they didn't have any money. They blew it all making the film. Even though they were having good returns in Germany and France, it was not enough to recover. So they're just like, ah, we declare bankruptcy. So Florence doesn't get any money. She's angry and she orders the judge to have all copies of Nosferatu confiscated and destroyed, which of course you can't really do. Zaza: Was the movie a success though? Stanley Stepanic: Well, critically, Zaza: The book... Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Yeah. Zaza: Yeah, oh just critically there was no Stanley Stepanic: Well, it was Zaza: mass hysteria when it was released. Stanley Stepanic: No, it was a financial success. The problem was is they dumped so much into the advertising and production. I mean, for example, they traveled to Slovakia to like film in a castle and stuff there, you know, and like back then, you know, everything's being done by train. So it was extremely expensive production for its time. I don't even know how much they spent on it, but, you know, they just they just couldn't make the money back. And once the lawsuit hit, even though there may have been the opportunity to recoup their losses and then, you know. have some profits coming in, by the time the lawsuit happens, Florence is going to get money, right? If they actually had money, she's going to get it because they've breached copyright. So they just declare bankruptcy and basically wipe their hands of it. And so when she orders the copies to be confiscated and destroyed, of course they can't do that because someone's going to keep one and hide it in the theater. They're not going to have like a strike force or secret police get all these steeders in Europe and, hey, you got nose for auto? This isn't like Soviet era where they can... take you to secret police or something. So copies survived. And then essentially the media attention around the Nosferatu lawsuit and the film led to more people being interested in Dracula. So then they start to buy the book more. Then Florence in sort of desperation has an official play version done, which her husband had already tried in 1897, but he failed at it. So she has a play version done 1924. Eventually that reaches the United States in 1927 and famously Bela Lugosi played Dracula on stage. And of course, everyone, the famous vampire accent and the widow's peak hairline, that was him as a person. And then of course, we had the 1931 Universal rendition, which is basically, they just basically filmed the play and added some stuff to it. And then from that point, you get this long chain of like interest in vampires, it kind of ebb and flow until you get to basically the 70s and 80s and it eventually explodes and becomes this huge thing. And there's tons of little details in there that lead up to the modern day where we have video games now and. comic books and TV shows and one of the things I always like to talk about in my course, I don't know if you I don't know if this is released anywhere over there, probably not, but McDonald's back in the 1990s and stuff. They used to have what they called the McNugget buddies. They were these chicken McNugget toys and They had one year I forget it was probably 1994 or so I don't remember the exact year, but they had a Halloween theme set and one of those was a vampire It was a vampire chicken McNugget. It had a cape It had a necklace like Bella Lugosi, except with the McDonald's arches. It had a widow's peak and a bat on its head and stuff, and you could take off the little costume. And you know, that's where we are now, is where you can have the vampire chicken McNugget, and people are like, oh yeah, why not? It's, you know, so, you know, Dracula eventually becomes the big image that led to all that stuff, but of course, now we have, you know, we have Twilight, we have shows like The Strain, you know, which ended a couple years ago. what we do in the shadows, you know, there's just so much stuff. It's almost ridiculous. Anime coming from Japan, there's just so much. That's basically the short story of how it all happened. Basically, it was kind of a bunch of coincidences where a minor sort of demon in Slavic folklore, which explained disease and death, became appropriated. And then from that, Europe went crazy over it for a while in literature. And then from literature, it entered theater and then film. And well, here we are. Now it's everywhere. Zaza: Where does Vlad Stanley Stepanic: Look, Zaza: tapish? Stanley Stepanic: I even have my ID thing. This is Van Perella, you know, this. Oh, Vlad Sepish, okay, yeah, good. Zaza: That's dedication. So where does this slightly unhinged Wallachian noble Vlad the Impaler, you know, well, he liked to impale people. I thought he was the direct inspiration Stanley Stepanic: Oh Zaza: for Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: Dracula. Stanley Stepanic: that's a pretty long-standing myth, so a good friend Zaza: Does Stanley Stepanic: of mine Zaza: he have Stanley Stepanic: is D- Zaza: anything to do with Dracula at all or is it just Stanley Stepanic: He Zaza: the Stanley Stepanic: does. Zaza: name? Stanley Stepanic: He does. But it's primarily the name. So what happened there, if you don't mind my long-winded explanation, a good Zaza: No, Stanley Stepanic: friend Zaza: not Stanley Stepanic: of mine, Zaza: at all, Stanley Stepanic: okay, Zaza: please. Stanley Stepanic: a good friend of mine, his name is Dacre Stoker. Dacre is the great-grandnephew of Bram Stoker, and he's basically the son of the of the Stoker family now. He travels the world doing tours and speeches on Stoker and the novel Dracula and other things. But he not so long ago, actually this is probably last year, he came across some notations that get. Where there's evidence now that earlier before he really started, so we don't know exactly when he started the Great Dracula, but we know that by 1890 that year specifically he was definitely deeply involved in it. He could have done some things before that we don't know about, but he definitely was writing it then. But Dacre found some evidence that he had come across the name Dracula before in some books he had looked at, and then for some reason had remembered it, because you may or may not know this, but Dracula's original name in the novel was actually Count of Vampyr. It was Zaza: No, Stanley Stepanic: literally Zaza: I didn't Stanley Stepanic: called Zaza: know that. Stanley Stepanic: Literally, Zaza: No, I never Stanley Stepanic: he was Zaza: read Stanley Stepanic: literally. Zaza: the book. Stanley Stepanic: Oh, yeah. Okay. What's not if that's not in the book, of course That's in like the original notes and stuff. Zaza: I see. Stanley Stepanic: He was he was literally called count vampire. That was his name count von pier He basically finds a Polish spelling of vampire and utilizes that as the guy's last name. They give me how They'd be like calling yourself count werewolf, you know, like it's like can you be less obvious? So Zaza: Yeah, Captain Marvel or Stanley Stepanic: yeah Zaza: whatever. Stanley Stepanic: Captain Marvel or whatever. Yeah, so and so Dacre believes he knew about Dracula before the name and you know kind of remembered it and then whenever he was visiting this town in England called Whitby, which is this sort of northeastern part of the coast there, he goes to a local library there, finds this book that's about, you know, principalities of like Wallachia and stuff like that and the Carpathian Mounds and he finds the name in there again. So although the character Dracula in the book does present some history of who he is as a person, it's basically a conglomeration of things that Stoker pulls from different books he used for research. So The actual character Dracula is really a conglomeration of a number of things. In terms of being, you know, the real person, you know, Vlad Tepes or, of course, Vlad Tepes didn't call himself that. He didn't call himself Vlad the Impaler. He called himself Vlad Dracula because Dracula means son of Dracul. It means son of the dragon. That's what it means. So that was his name because his father Vlad II was called Vlad Dracul and so he was Vlad Dracula, which means son of Dracul. So really Stoker when he comes across that name, he's like, this is what I need for my vampire's name. He was primarily interested in the name. So although the character does present a sort of quasi picture of the history of the real person, it's really just a fictional presentation that's pieces of many different things put together. So it's, but Zaza: All Stanley Stepanic: as you, primarily the name, yeah. Zaza: right, so people in Eastern Europe back then after Vlad Tepes died, there were no legends that he drank blood because he was Stanley Stepanic: No, Zaza: so bloodthirsty Stanley Stepanic: no, Zaza: or anything Stanley Stepanic: there are. Zaza: of that Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: sort. Stanley Stepanic: supposedly at least one instance he, you know, had some blood of one of his, you know, someone he killed, you know, Turks or something like that and, you know, dip some bread in like a bowl made out of a skull or something, you know. So how much of that is fictional, you know, sometimes? There's plenty of good information out there you can find about Vlad Dracula's actual biography, a great deal that we know. A very famous book, you know, by a Romanian scholar called In Search of Dracula talks about it quite a great deal, actually. Any rate, you know, supposedly, yeah, you know, he had, you know, drank some blood at some point, you know, and impaled people's, but yeah. Zaza: Wasn't there another countess in that region who was bathing in blood? I think her Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: name was Elizabeth Stanley Stepanic: oh yes, Zaza: Buttery or Stanley Stepanic: Elizabeth Zaza: something. Stanley Stepanic: Bathory, yeah, the blood counties. First off, that's another well-known legend that she bathed in blood. We don't actually have evidence of that. The evidence we have suggests that she was a sadist, and she probably liked torturing young girls, but even today, we're not sure exactly how far that went. There have Zaza: Hmm. Stanley Stepanic: been at least a few scholars that have argued that because the King of Hungary and Bohemia at that time, what the heck was his name? I don't know, I forget. Matthias I, I think. Zaza: Hmm. Ah, Matias Korvinus, I think. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, that might be it. Yeah, Zaza: Yeah, we have Stanley Stepanic: he... Zaza: a lot of legends about him in Slovenia as well. Stanley Stepanic: Okay, Zaza: Yeah, yeah, Stanley Stepanic: okay, Zaza: yeah. Right. Stanley Stepanic: so you know who I'm talking about. Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: He owed the Bathory family a significant debt. And if Elizabeth was found guilty of these so-called crimes, then that debt would be wiped clean. And so a number of scholars have used that detail specifically and some others to suggest that these stories of Bathory were actually just fabrications to make her look bad and to ruin that family's political power and stuff. But... Other people, you know say we have but we have some you know details here that suggests, you know So for a while there in the Guinness Book of World Records It used to say something like, you know, she was known for killing 650 girls and then I think the number change in like 850 and something like when did you add 200 to that? They got more and more sensational in reality, you know, it was probably something more like 50 to 80 I mean not still a lot of people but But yeah, so and that's another important detail too about the character Dracula in the novel is that Technically speaking there are little parts of Elizabeth Bathory that go into that character. There are some scholars that say oh we have no evidence of that and I know we do because We know that one of the books that Stoker used for research for Dracula was the same book That Joseph Sheridan left the new used whenever he was reading Carmilla and in that book It talks about Bathory very clearly in there And so he used parts of that story to make you know the character Carmilla and her you know vampire mother in that novella and Stoker used the same book for research, so There's one particular element of Dracula, you can connect the batteries. He supposedly would ride in this black carriage to local towns to get these peasant girls and bring them back to the castle. And when Dracula picks up Jonathan Harker, the story of the book, he's in a black carriage. That's very similar to what battery would have essentially had. So, again, the character drag is like a conglomeration of things. But yes, of course, the famous blood countess from Hungary, or technically she lived in Slovakia, part of what's Slovakia at the time. But yeah, of course, you got her there too. Zaza: You mentioned a couple of times now the connection between the emergence of the vampire myth with diseases. Stanley Stepanic: Yes. Zaza: Could you break that down a little bit further? Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, sure. So, now the primary function of the vampire, like it's a symbol, right? Because in folklore and myth, you find this all over the world that people like symbols to explain what they can't explain. And basically what we mean there is, you know, today we have knowledge of viruses, of bacteria and stuff, and our ancestors didn't have any of that. They didn't even know viruses existed. That's something that people sometimes don't get today is that our ancestors didn't even know viruses. existed. They had no conception of that. They didn't even know what a vitamin was. You know, so all these mysteries about diseases caused by dietary deficiencies or bacteria or viruses were, they were mysteries. They had no idea what really caused those things. So this is why you often find in folklore myth that these various demons and things you'll find in all these different stories from different cultures all over the world, they're usually explanations in many cases of disease and stuff like that. So the vampire was the primary one, not the only one, in Slavic culture. You have other things, you know, that I won't get into, but it could spread disease and kill people. So you often found it being used as a scapegoat whenever there was a disease pandemic. So during the so-called great vampire epidemic of the 18th century, which I mentioned earlier, there were two diseases in particular that were rampant in Serbia, especially one of those is rabies. So there was a rabies pandemic at the time that was causing the actual deaths and also a dietary disease or deficiency, a disease caused by dietary deficiency. The disease is called pellagra and that is caused by over consumption of corn products and it causes an imbalance in tryptophan and vitamin B3 in the body. So those two things are basically working in conjunction and serve at the time and there are so many people dying that people are looking for an answer and oh we have this thing, yeah we got this thing that we believe in and this is what does this. So that's one of the reasons that vampire hysteria spread at that time was two diseases basically were the main cause. You could argue there were other minor diseases maybe tuberculosis and something like that We actually have data from the Ottoman Empire about these disease outbreaks in Serbia, especially at the time. Primarily rabid dogs that were a problem in Serbia, and the Turks had noted that before in prior centuries had caused an outbreak of rabies that spread. Zaza: So what did people actually think? That vampires are going around biting people and Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: then they actually had rabies Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, because Zaza: in effect? Stanley Stepanic: of course, you know, they had no rabies vaccine back then. So Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: you got rabies back then you had about what four to five days roughly until it's like incubated and starts to get in your brain. And once it gets up there, you turn into basically like a monster, you know, human beings. Zaza: Yeah, it's a horrifying disease, right? Stanley Stepanic: Oh, it's horrible. It has it has a ninety nine point nine to infinity mortality rate. Only one person in recorded history is known to have survived rabies without Zaza: Yep. Stanley Stepanic: vaccine. So, you know. From data it wiped out whole villages and in certain cases people that weren't infected would just abandon the village if your Zaza: Jesus. Stanley Stepanic: wife is Infected your uncle you just left, you know But basically there's people there's something there's something happening there and it's not human basically is what how they interpreted it. Yeah, Zaza: So they Stanley Stepanic: exactly Zaza: would dig up a body that they suspected was a vampire and then they would burn it or Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: run Stanley Stepanic: there Zaza: it Stanley Stepanic: are Zaza: through Stanley Stepanic: various Zaza: with Stanley Stepanic: things Zaza: stakes. Stanley Stepanic: that they would do. They would burn it, steak it, chop off its head and put the head between the legs. Sometimes they would chop the body parts up, you know, and scatter them around like a puzzle. Sometimes they would put garlic on it and then rebury it. Sometimes they would bury it in another location, like outside the cemetery or at a crossroads. Sometimes they would throw poppy seeds in the grave because the vampire was supposed to have a compulsion to count. There are many different things you could do. Put a sickle at the throat. Put a piece of iron in its mouth, put a stake anywhere in its chest, including the heart, put a stake in his head. I mean, there was a recent archaeological dig, I think somewhere in Poland, where they uncovered another vampire burial. And in this case, this vampire had a sickle in its throat, or may have actually been a scythe, but you know, some sort of, you know, blade like that. And then they had actually put a padlock on its toe. And that's the first time I've heard of that one. Put a lock on its foot, and that keeps it bound to the ground somehow. So Zaza: Like Stanley Stepanic: There Zaza: you Stanley Stepanic: are Zaza: would Stanley Stepanic: lots. Zaza: chain a bicycle. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, almost like that. Yeah, it's very interesting. Zaza: How did they know who to suspect? Which corpse Stanley Stepanic: Oh, Zaza: is the Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: likely Stanley Stepanic: good Zaza: culprit? Stanley Stepanic: question. Zaza: Is the likely vampire? Stanley Stepanic: So first off, you know, it varied, but there were signs that someone could be a vampire even when they were alive, you know, and there are lots of, wait, the way the bed's leading here, I'm gonna get on my knees here so I'm a little more comfortable. Is that okay? Okay, Zaza: Perfect. Stanley Stepanic: so, okay, what was I there? Oh yeah, Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: so there were so-called signs of amprism when you were alive. For example, even something as simple as having red hair. was a marker that you might be a vampire. Now, the important Zaza: Oh, it's always Stanley Stepanic: detail Zaza: the gingers, Stanley Stepanic: there, Zaza: isn't it? Stanley Stepanic: yeah, it's always there, exactly. Red hair, if you were born on certain days, if you were born on Christmas day, for example, that was an old Slavic pagan holiday. If you're born on that day or near the winter solstice, that was another thing. There are various things you could look for. But the important detail there is, unlike the witch craze, where things like that can mark you as a witch and you're gonna be like tortured and killed, vampire epidemic, it wouldn't matter because by definition, you have to be dead first. to become a vampire. So, you know, if you had red hair, they would note that. You know, they might be like, you know, hey, whenever you die, we're gonna have to... And, you know, culturally, you probably would accept it and be like, oh, you know, Zaza: That's fine. Stanley Stepanic: whatever Zaza: I'm Stanley Stepanic: you Zaza: gonna Stanley Stepanic: gotta Zaza: be Stanley Stepanic: do. Zaza: gone anyway, right? Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: Yep. Stanley Stepanic: exactly. Zaza: Do what you will. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, do what you will. But yeah, there were ways you could tell someone before they died what could be a vampire, even things whenever you were born. There were tons of details there. And then, you know, once you have your suspected vampire, and there are different ways you could figure it out, you know, like... They would, if they could have a vampire hunter, which could include a dog, by the way, and you can know sniff out the grave and find the grave the vampire was in. And then what was happening there is when they would unearth these bodies, they would then see bodies in various stages of decomposition. And the average person doesn't know anything about the science of decomposition, even today. No one, I mean, who wants to, unless you're involved in that field. So, you know, what they were doing then is they were misinterpreting signs of decomposition as signs of vampirism. Oh, look, this one has some blood coming out of his mouth. Well, If this is an era when you're not embalming and draining the body of blood, well, eventually the pressure decomposition is going to cause blood to come out of your mouth because it's your own blood. But they would interpret that as, well, this is blood he drank or something like that. There are various things. So basically they would misinterpret signs of decomposition to signs of vampires. And then, you know, then they would do various things to the body to make sure it didn't come back. They could burn it, they could chop its head off, whatever. Zaza: You Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: just mentioned that this comes from pagan belief, but Christianity was the big daddy of religion in Eastern Europe Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: at that time, right? In the 11th century, probably in most of Eastern Europe. How did Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: Christianity view this belief of regular people who believed in vampires? Stanley Stepanic: didn't like it Zaza: What Stanley Stepanic: because... Zaza: did the local priests say? Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, so this is a very interesting question. So very easy to answer too. So at the time when we're in the vampire epidemic, orthodoxy of course is the dominant religion in like Serbia and parts of Eastern Europe like that. You get in the Poland, you're getting the Catholicism and stuff, but either way, it doesn't matter if it's Catholic church or the Orthodox church. They didn't like it because first, the vampire is going against Christian belief first off because the idea of Christian belief, of course it varies in different forms of Christianity, but basically... dead body can't come back from the grave unless it's resurrected by Christ essentially, right? Or, you know, God. So thus it's impossible via faith for this to be happening anyway. So they don't think it's possible. The Catholic Church had more of a tendency, especially during the witch craze, to like condemn stuff like this as witchcraft and to try to get it to be like hushed. Whereas the Orthodox Church, they were kind of like more hands-off or they didn't like it, but they were like, well, you know, we got a conundrum here because if we try to fight against this belief, The people who actually, they actually believe in this and there are more of them than there are us. And if they believe in it, and we like condemn it, you know, we're gonna kinda look like we're almost like on the side of the vampire. So, we can't really condemn it. We'll tell them, you know, hey, I don't think it's a good idea, but, you know, if they still do it, we can't like force them to stop because that could be bad. So they, in Serbia, they tried to pass laws and stuff like that, but it never really worked. But the church also can't get involved in it because it doesn't believe it's anything anyway, so... Orthodox Church tended to do this in Eastern Europe as a whole. This is why you still see like even today like in Russia, especially a very strong retention of old pagan belief about spirits and stuff like that. Like, you know in Russia you got the Damavoy, the house spirit and things like that. That you know, other people don't necessarily believe in it anymore. It's a very well-known cultural image. The peasants basically were like stuck in like a medieval way of thinking practically until the 1930s in certain parts of Russia, you know, so. They believe stuff like this existed. And one of the reasons why is that the church was like, eh, let's see, you believe in a house spirit. That's not Christian, but does it really matter? Well, you know, we'll just, whatever. Yeah, you can believe in that. So that's essentially what happened is they were, they were a little more hands off in the East than they were in, you know, Western Christianity. So it enabled it to sort of like spread a little further. But the church, this is the important detail. The start of a long-winded explanation there, but Zaza: No, no, please. Stanley Stepanic: yeah, this Zaza: It's Stanley Stepanic: is, Zaza: really, Stanley Stepanic: this is, Zaza: it's really interesting. Stanley Stepanic: yeah. This is what you refer to in folklore as a dual belief or a dual faith, where basically you've got these people who have old pagan belief that never really went away and it's been around for centuries now. So they have these things that they believe in, but they're also Christian. The old beliefs are part of their old pagan traditions and the church kind of ignores it, but they're still doing them. So if you give someone a Christian burial and they're coming back from the grave as a vampire, obviously Christian burial, cross on the grave, whatever, doesn't matter. So you gotta go back to the pagan stuff. The Slavic people, for example, they used to burn their dead. They practiced cremation exclusively. They did not bury their dead intact. They burned the bodies. So when Christianity comes in, it doesn't like cremation, and it tries to get them to stop, but they remembered, you know, all right, well, we'll do this new thing. You're telling us we gotta do it. Well, the cultural shift happened over a couple hundred years. But if they come back, we're gonna go back to that old thing. We're gonna burn it then because that will stop it. So it's what you call dual belief or dual faith. Retention of old belief in the presence of a new dominant religion. Basically, does that make sense? You know I'm saying Zaza: It does, it does. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: But Stanley Stepanic: okay Zaza: when does the vampires of today, when we see them in fiction, they're allergic to crosses? Stanley Stepanic: Oh yeah, so Zaza: You know, where does Stanley Stepanic: now Zaza: that come from then? Stanley Stepanic: I will say that Stoker is the first person to make that a big theme in Dracula. But I have come across one case of a vampire burial where they rebury the so-called vampire with a crucifix on it. Now, why would they do that? Because, you know, we don't know for sure, but presumably that would be the grave of someone like a suicide, who would not be given a Christian burial. And so you throw the cross in there to basically bind it. via the religion it wasn't given for its own funeral and that was supposed to reverse the process. So it's not to say that Christianity wasn't used in at least one case prior to Stoker as a way to stop a vampire, but Stoker makes it a big theme because he was very Christian, right? So he views Dracula as almost like a form of or a symbol of the devil and the people fighting against evil, fighting against Satan, fighting against Dracula, you know, is the Christian side. Instead, they're going to use Christian objects to keep this stuff away. So he's the person that really make it a big theme because in the novel there's Holy water and communion wafers and crucifixes, but there's also garlic and wolf's pain and whatever and stuff like that. As wolf's pain is mentioned there, I have to check that, but garlic's mentioned. So it's a combination of pagan belief and Christian belief, but he makes the Christian thing a really big idea for sure. He definitely, you gotta give him some credit for that, but technically speaking, he's not the first person that used crucifix against a vampire, is what I'm saying. Zaza: Where does garlic come into play? I mean, what's Stanley Stepanic: I Zaza: the Stanley Stepanic: go Zaza: deal Stanley Stepanic: man. Zaza: with that? I mean, I love garlic, but Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: is it because people figured out that it's a mild antiseptic in the Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: old... Stanley Stepanic: okay. Oh, yeah. So first you got that right? So basically Garlic is an old example of what you would call lore in Slavic belief where it's a essentially a curative thing that has certain properties That make people healthier. So as you just said, it's a you know, like a minor antiseptic It can help balance intestinal flora, you know, like if you have like a you know, ate something bad or so They can help balance out bad bacteria It's also known as a blood purifier and even by chance myself I came across a very interesting article from the National Institute of Health I don't know when was published a couple years ago, but about how garlic can balance hormone levels even you know Because of some chemical in there increases and at least in men what's called luteinizing hormone Maybe you can look at that, but I was like wow that's interesting I mean, I never knew that before I forget how I even came across I was doing like research in the garlic and you know health or something and it like it popped they kept popping up I was like hormones really so you know so here's how we could look at that Let's say a long time ago. You know this is gonna sound kind of stupid, but let's say you know some guys like well I just don't I don't feel like a man anymore, you know? And then he just, you know, one day has a bunch of garlic and then two days later he's like, hey, feeling kind of virile here, what the hell happened? You know, so presumably they would have noticed some cause and effect of garlic and ingesting it over, you know, generations. It'd be like, this thing here keeps us healthier for some reason. We don't know why or what it's actually doing, but it's doing something. And therefore, if the vampire is a symbol of disease, then this thing which protects against disease is gonna keep that thing away. So I just gotta put Zaza: Makes Stanley Stepanic: some Zaza: sense. Stanley Stepanic: on my house. Yeah, exactly. Or I gotta put some in the grave now and it won't come out because it can't touch it, basically. Zaza: OK, Stanley Stepanic: That's essentially Zaza: please Stanley Stepanic: what happened Zaza: link Stanley Stepanic: there. Zaza: that study to me after Stanley Stepanic: Oh, let Zaza: the... Stanley Stepanic: me see that go, okay. Zaza: about virility, about virility, about the... after the conversation. Stanley Stepanic: I could just do an email, I guess. Yeah, send Zaza: Too much information, too much... I'll Stanley Stepanic: me an Zaza: do Stanley Stepanic: email Zaza: it. Stanley Stepanic: to remind me and then I'll send it in the email to you. I Zaza: All Stanley Stepanic: gotta Zaza: right, Stanley Stepanic: find Zaza: awesome. Stanley Stepanic: the article I actually found in particular. It was very interesting because lots of like Zaza: Just for Stanley Stepanic: medical Zaza: health Stanley Stepanic: knowledge Zaza: purposes, Stanley Stepanic: in there. Ah, that's Zaza: you know, Stanley Stepanic: fine. Zaza: it's Stanley Stepanic: Oh, Zaza: for Stanley Stepanic: that's Zaza: a friend. Stanley Stepanic: fine. Zaza: It's for a friend. Um, you said vampires are a symbol, right? Does that mean that different incarnations of vampires address different concerns that people might've had at that time, for example? Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, exactly. And that's what's Zaza: So, Stanley Stepanic: happened over time. Zaza: yeah. Stanley Stepanic: That's why it's so popular today even, is Zaza: Yeah, Stanley Stepanic: because the Zaza: right. Stanley Stepanic: vampire, it's what I tell my students, the vampire has basically now become a mirror of human existence. Any changes in society, culture, politics, anything you can think of, a vampire will be there to absorb those things and you'll find it in film, in a comic book or something. Zaza: Alright, Stanley Stepanic: It changes Zaza: if we Stanley Stepanic: it, Zaza: limit ourselves Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: to Stanley Stepanic: Okay. Zaza: the world of cinema, could we go through some of the most popular versions to see what's kind of lurking underneath in terms of historical Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: context? Just Stanley Stepanic: sure. Zaza: a little bit. Stanley Stepanic: Modern or just like a quick overview or something? Zaza: Yeah, if we start, excuse me, with Nosferatu and then Stanley Stepanic: Oh yeah, Nosferatu Zaza: maybe. Stanley Stepanic: of course. So some people have argued that the vampire in there, Nosferatu, they actually call him Count Orlok, technically. It's a variation of Count Dracula. Some people have argued, well that's a symbol of the effects of the flu pandemic of 1918-1919, its effects on Germany, because part Zaza: Interesting. Stanley Stepanic: of the plot takes place in Germany. Other people have said, well this is an example of the effects of World War I, or the Great Wars they called it back then, because actually in Dutch the word Orlok means war, you know, so someone pointed that out once. You know, maybe in that case he's an easy example of the effects of World War I on Germany, or the Great Wars, they called it. Other people said, you know, this is an example of a sort of pre-Nazi anti-Semitism in German media, for example, Zaza: Hmm Stanley Stepanic: in the way that the character looks and what he does and his nose and his eyebrows and things. So those are three examples of potential, not necessarily true, potential symbolic meanings of that vampire for that audience at that time, basically. Then if you jump ahead to Dracula 1931 with Bill Lugosi, some people argued the reason that film did so well, because if you watch the movie, it's actually pretty awful. The cinematography is terrible. Lots of the acting is just so bad. If you look at the so-called Spanish version, it's much better. Lugosi is really the only thing about that film that makes it still watchable because he's iconic in that. At any rate, some people argued that the reason that film did so well for 1931 audiences is that somewhere in the back of our heads back then, Lugosi basically symbolized like the evil rich so to speak during the Great Depression and these people like Zaza: capitalists. Stanley Stepanic: bankers and stuff Yeah So you got that simple potentially then you jumped in the 1950s with like Christopher Lee, you know in the hammer Dracula series And people have argued that that's an example of changing opinions about sexuality Or if you get a 1970s, there's a there are in the 1970s You get a ton of these Carmilla and Batherie films because of interest in that character and where she came from You know, lots of those films revolve around ideas that were basically borrowed from second wave feminism or they called it, you know, women's liberation back then. You know, so you see this sort of like second wave feminism finding its way in there. And then you get to the 1980s and the vampire is being revised. It's becoming more and more like human. It starts like, you know, losing the cape and stuff like that and losing the accent. And then we see the vampire becoming a symbol of, you know, and there were other things too, I'm just skipping over. We see the vampire becoming a symbol of like disillusioned youth or. breakdown of the nuclear family like The Lost Boys 1987 is a good example of that. Then you jump to the 90s, you know, you got gender identity, you got racial identity there, films like Interview with the Vampire, which of course is based on the book from 1976, where vampirism is being used as a symbol of people who were gay and ostracized for American society at the time basically. Then we get Blade 1998, you know, you got some racial identity going on there, even though I guess he's technically half vampire, but then you get to the, you know, 21st century you got Edward Cullen eventually Edward Cullen is just essentially a form of Byronic hero that Lord Riven character I mentioned back in 1819 Edward Cullen is basically a symbol of that He's also like a symbol of like this idealistic vision of love the sort of like bad boy who needs tamed image and media You know you often find in American media where there's this there's this guy out there And once he falls in love with this certain girl, he's gonna he's gonna change and be the best guy in the whole world He basically is like a symbol of that, you know, so That's going up to the modern day stuff. Basically, that's what happened is any new generation now has their own problems and their own questions and the vampire can help us at least not necessarily solve those problems, but engage them in an indirect way. You know what I mean? Zaza: Maybe this is a bit of an oversimplification, but Hollywood's trend does seem to go in the direction of increasingly sexy vampire. Like Nosferatu was this completely hideous little monster who Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: didn't Stanley Stepanic: definitely, yeah. Zaza: exactly make us put our Marvin Gaye records on. And then we had the kind of this creepy Eastern European uncle, you know, the Bela Lugosi, also Christopher Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: Lee a little bit. But the closer to modern times we get, the steamier. vampires become. Suddenly there's like you mentioned Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt and their Prime and then and Blade Stanley Stepanic: Oh yeah, Zaza: and Stanley Stepanic: legend, Zaza: HBO's Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: True Blood and these vampires Stanley Stepanic: Yes, Zaza: are just like fornicating Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: all over the place. Were vampires Stanley Stepanic: F Zaza: just following a general industry trend or is there something else going on here between vampires Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: and sexiness? Stanley Stepanic: basically an industry trend. Well, Zaza: Ah, disappointing. Stanley Stepanic: I'd say it kind of became a trend, and then it just is one form of vampire. It's very, you see, of course, the old adage is sex sells. So if you have this thing that's like an ideal lover and like has ideal strength and immunity to disease, it never gets old. It's almost like a human ideal, like something we wish we could be. But really where that starts, where the vampire starts to become a sex symbol is when Bellalagos, he starts playing Dracula on stage in the 1920s. I forget, did you say you ever read the novel Dracula? Zaza: I didn't, because Stanley Stepanic: Okay, so... Zaza: I wanted to, but then I heard Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: it's a little Stanley Stepanic: no, Zaza: bit Stanley Stepanic: it's... Zaza: boring. I don't know. It Stanley Stepanic: No, Zaza: was Stanley Stepanic: it, Zaza: just Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: like, Stanley Stepanic: it's, Zaza: and I read Frankenstein, Stanley Stepanic: it's... Zaza: and I was like, oh, this is not that gripping. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: I don't know. Maybe Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: it's, Stanley Stepanic: it's really not. Zaza: yeah, Stanley Stepanic: Frankenstein's Zaza: it's not, Stanley Stepanic: got some amateur Zaza: it's not, Stanley Stepanic: like, hey. Zaza: right, right. Yeah, so I was like, I thought Dracula is in the same vein as Frankenstein. I was Stanley Stepanic: It Zaza: like, yeah, I'm Stanley Stepanic: is, Zaza: going to skip Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: that. Stanley Stepanic: and it's longer too, you know, so Zaza: Oof. Stanley Stepanic: But um, but yeah So Zaza: Thanks for the heads Stanley Stepanic: if you Zaza: up. Stanley Stepanic: actually were Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: to read the novel or a look up like, you know How does Dracula actually look in the book? You're gonna see that basically I just came across You know, I came across a very interesting very accurate depiction In a meme of what Dracula actually looks like in the book. He's basically depicted as essentially like a creepy old pedophile You know is basically what he looks like. So you can find Zaza: Fantastic. Stanley Stepanic: this Where do I have this at? Oh my gosh Hold on, hold on. Oh my God. I Zaza: All Stanley Stepanic: just Zaza: good. Stanley Stepanic: got this the other day. Hold on. Oh, there it is, there it is. Okay, so I don't know if you can, hold on. Yeah. Can you, oh, see that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is essentially what Dracula looks like in the book. Zaza: Oh Stanley Stepanic: Okay? Zaza: my gosh, that's not what I was picturing Stanley Stepanic: Mm-mm. Zaza: at all. He looks Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: like some sort of a demented version of Albert Einstein. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, yeah, he's supposed to have he has bad breath. It says that right in there. His breath Zaza: He's Stanley Stepanic: was Zaza: like, Stanley Stepanic: rank. Zaza: just Stanley Stepanic: It's like Zaza: for the people who are just listening to this episode, he has long gray hair, really red eyes like Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: an old Stanley Stepanic: red Zaza: alcoholic, Stanley Stepanic: eyes, gray Zaza: and a Stanley Stepanic: mustache. Zaza: long gray mustache. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, he also has Zaza: That's Stanley Stepanic: like Zaza: not Stanley Stepanic: pointy Zaza: sexy Stanley Stepanic: fingernails. Zaza: at all. Stanley Stepanic: No, it's Zaza: I'm Stanley Stepanic: not. Zaza: sorry, but that's not sexy. Stanley Stepanic: He's got Zaza: No. Stanley Stepanic: pointy fingernails and he actually has hair on his palms. So his palms have like hair on them. So he's depicted as basically this disgusting old guy. This disgusting old creeper is essentially how he's depicted. Lugosi looks nothing like that. And Lugosi was asked, you know, well, how did you decide to depict Dracula this way? And he essentially said, you know, well, At the time, at least, he had never read the novel. He said, I just depicted Dracula as I envisioned him as an actor. I presented him as I thought he should look. And just by the way that Lugosi looked, he's this dashing, exotic, mature Hungarian guy with an accent and women just, including Clara Bo, a very famous actress, just fell in love with him. They were like, oh my God, there's just something about this sinister, dangerous man. And that's really where it started was his depiction of Dracula in 1920s and 1931. Although technically Carmilla in the novella from 1871, 1872 is depicted in a way that she's supposed to be basically an attractive young girl, even though she's like 200 years old technically. And there's a suggestion of sexuality in there. That was like a disturbing way for people when they first read that, because she's being basically in that era, she's being depicted as like the opposite of what people at the time thought should be the ideals of like, you know, virginity and womanhood, you know, and stuff like that. Whereas Lugosi was Dracula, he becomes a sex symbol for that role. He said, this is according to him, he said most of the fan mail he got was from women who were basically obsessed with him for being Dracula. Zaza: I can't Stanley Stepanic: So, Zaza: believe Stanley Stepanic: and, Zaza: this. This is Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: really somehow, I don't know, disappointing as well, because Stanley Stepanic: Oh, Zaza: ever since Stanley Stepanic: sorry. Zaza: I started watching television, Eastern Europeans in Hollywood were either James Bond villains, demented ones, or Borat, you know? And Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: Eastern Stanley Stepanic: spies Zaza: European Stanley Stepanic: or drug Zaza: spies, Stanley Stepanic: dealers or Zaza: like who want Stanley Stepanic: mafia. Zaza: to destroy the world, Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: or like Borat or somebody really comical from Eastern Europe who doesn't know what's really happening. So Stanley Stepanic: Exactly. Zaza: the accent was never considered sexy. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: It's kind of sad to know that, yeah, we missed the track. Stanley Stepanic: Yep. Zaza: Maybe it's going to come back now with The Witcher and the whole Stanley Stepanic: Oh yeah, you know, it's Zaza: Eastern European folklore revival Stanley Stepanic: a... Folklore Zaza: in Hollywood. Stanley Stepanic: turned into fantasy there, yeah. But yeah, that's basically how it started. You know, over time, you know, of course there were transitions and stuff, but eventually, you know, that became like a big thing. Because like I said, it's simple, sex sells, you know. So if you're selling a vampire and it's sexual elements, especially like Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: female vampire images, so people are, you know, like anything else, they're gonna buy it, basically. It's like an Zaza: Coming Stanley Stepanic: ideal, Zaza: back Stanley Stepanic: you know. Zaza: to the idea of vampire as a symbol, people in medieval Eastern Europe believed vampires really existed out there. Hopefully Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: nobody really does that anymore. We read about Stanley Stepanic: there Zaza: them Stanley Stepanic: may Zaza: in comic Stanley Stepanic: be. Zaza: books, we see them in movies, but more than anything else, these days we're simply mostly entertained by them. So does a symbol still work when we know it's just that, a symbol, a piece of fiction? Stanley Stepanic: Of course, yeah, and the reason for that is as a symbol as I would argue at least as a symbol the vampire represents Problems that we don't necessarily have an answer for so it gives us sort of like a emotional release to experience You know seeing it, you know, and maybe whether or not we're conscious of what it represents You know, so do I think it you know Matt is that ruin it as a symbol? No, that's one of the reasons why it's so powerful is because any change in culture the vampire will just absorb it and you know a good example that is just this April we had that recent film with Nicolas Cage where Nicolas Cage plays Dracula, it's called Zaza: Alright, Stanley Stepanic: Renfield. Zaza: I haven't seen it yet. I'm a massive fan Stanley Stepanic: It's called, Zaza: of Nicolas Cage, so I'm gonna Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: go see it. Stanley Stepanic: To be honest, I really enjoyed that movie. Zaza: Nice. Stanley Stepanic: I'm teaching summer session Dracula course now at UVA here in Charlottesville and the second summer session, students were like, hey, can we watch that for like our final analysis project? Cause we analyze the film and the vampire's a symbol in there and the symbol is so obvious in that movie. I think Nicolas Cage did an awesome job as Dracula. And you know, Zaza: Awesome, but Stanley Stepanic: he Zaza: it's Stanley Stepanic: does Zaza: a Stanley Stepanic: the... Zaza: comedy, right? I've seen the trailer and it seems Stanley Stepanic: It's Zaza: like Stanley Stepanic: a dark Zaza: over the Stanley Stepanic: horror Zaza: top Stanley Stepanic: comedy. Zaza: on purpose. Stanley Stepanic: Oh yeah, Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: over the top, yeah for sure. Definitely has some funny moments. But the interesting thing as a symbol is Dracula's basically presented as a symbol of like toxic abusive relationships. So one of the scenes, you know, this doesn't ruin anything if you haven't seen it yet. One of the scenes Renfield is in like the support group for people that are, you know, are getting out of narcissistic relationships and they're talking about their boyfriends and stuff. And he's like, you know, I'm in a toxic relationship. He just says it, you know, so. We have that whole image and that idea that's currently very much in trend right now in American culture about toxicity and misogyny and the effects of trauma on relationships and stuff like that. Dracula basically represents that. And here we got Dracula again in a new form in a very inventive way, I thought. I really enjoyed it. But symbolically, he represents toxic relationships. Zaza: Hmm. Stanley Stepanic: And there's actually at least one article I know of that's published about that idea and that particular movie. I didn't even know it existed until a student pointed it out to me. They found it. They're like, hey, look at this. I'm like, oh yeah. But so there's an example of something very recent. It just came out this April, right? Where Zaza: Right. Stanley Stepanic: they're taking, you know, a modern idea, toxicity, you know, misogyny in relationships or whatever. And Dracula symbolizes that. Zaza: So Dracula essentially, or vampires essentially, work as this empty vessel that you can put some sort of collective anxiety into. Stanley Stepanic: Perfect way Zaza: And Stanley Stepanic: of saying Zaza: then... Stanley Stepanic: it, like an empty vessel, exactly. Zaza: Okay. What did you see? I'm sorry, I'm going to ask this, but there's a film called Morbius that I've Stanley Stepanic: D'ah! Zaza: heard is one of the worst films, not just about vampires, but ever made. And it Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: spawned a lot of like memes on the Stanley Stepanic: tons Zaza: Internet Stanley Stepanic: of memes. Zaza: as well, because Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: it's so bad. Yeah, like Stanley Stepanic: the Zaza: it's more Stanley Stepanic: only... Zaza: been time and all that stuff. Stanley Stepanic: Don't morb me. Zaza: OK, Stanley Stepanic: I'm about Zaza: did Stanley Stepanic: to Zaza: you Stanley Stepanic: morb. Zaza: did? Did you see it? Stanley Stepanic: I've only seen clips. I had, this Zaza: Okay. Stanley Stepanic: is funny, I had some students who are computer science majors from last semester, well, past fall semester, and constantly, they would bring up jokes in class about that dumb movie. So yeah, it was interesting because when they first were announcing that film, I think originally it was supposed to drop in 2018. It took them a while. If you look up like the original poster for it, like it was depicted in a way where it seemed like it was gonna be a very dark take on like a Marvel movie, which would have been great, but you know, then over time, you know, people that in charge think they know what they're doing and turn it into something that it probably shouldn't have been. So I haven't seen the full movie, just some clips, but you know, I've seen all the memes and the silly videos and stuff like the one dance scene and things everybody knows about. You know, I poop my poop my pants, you know what I'm talking about? Zaza: Sorry, Stanley Stepanic: Look up, look up. Zaza: the podcast's name is Eura Trash, so I have an affinity for really trashy stuff. Stanley Stepanic: Uh, okay. All right. See you. See you now. Zaza: I didn't gather the courage yet to see the movie though. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: I Stanley Stepanic: I Zaza: do Stanley Stepanic: haven't Zaza: want Stanley Stepanic: seen Zaza: to. Stanley Stepanic: it yet. I've had students that saw it and they said it was terrible. But it's interesting because the way they introduced it, because Marvel has all these, they have a really important creation they made in the 70s called the Tomb of Dracula. And the way that comic book series happened was, they made Morbius first in 1971, basically to test the censorship code of time in comics industry in America to see if they'd be okay with it. And once they were, they're like, all right, well, here's the whole series about vampires. And they introduced Blade in that series too, you know, famously in 1973. Um, the vampire hunter. Um, so, um, I, I anticipated that after Morbius, they were going to dish out. I'm surprised they haven't touched the tomb of Dracula yet. Um, you know, that would be great as like a Disney plus series for sure. Um, you know, it lasted for seven years originally. I forget how many issues it was, but a hundred and something, Zaza: What's Stanley Stepanic: I Zaza: your Stanley Stepanic: think. Zaza: favorite version of a vampire on Stanley Stepanic: Oh, Zaza: the Stanley Stepanic: like Zaza: screen? Stanley Stepanic: a vampire? That's a question I get asked a lot. You know, I gotta really think about that one. Boy. I've seen some interesting things over the years. Zaza: What do you think of Coppola's version? The 1992 Stanley Stepanic: Oh, okay. Yeah, Zaza: Dracula? Stanley Stepanic: that's a good question. Now, although I would say technically in terms of like details, there is a made-for-TV British film from a BBC film, I think, from 1974, maybe 77, somewhere in there, that is technically a little more accurate in its depiction of the novel Dracula. But me personally, in seeing various versions of Dracula over the years, you know, I would say the 1992 Coppola film Aside from some changes like the whole Mina Dracula love story thing, which doesn't occur in the novel at all, aside from that big change he makes there, I would say that movie is probably still, in my opinion, the most accurate version of the novel done, meaning the feeling of the good parts, because it basically condenses all the important stuff into a very workable amount of space. So all those superfluous characters and stuff that you really don't need and kind of bog down the plot and make it a real slog aren't there. So... And then the... The casting he did for that film, other than Keanu Reeves, no offense, is Jonathan Harker, was amazing. I mean, Anthony Hopkins as Von Helsing was perfect pick. Zaza: I mean, Gary Oldman is pretty awesome too Stanley Stepanic: Oh Zaza: for Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: me. Stanley Stepanic: he did a great job. Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: As a young and old Dracula, although the old version of Dracula there is, not exactly like what it is in the book, it's one of the only versions I know of. There's maybe two versions. I forget the other one where he has hair on his palms, where he has the actual hairy palms and stuff like that start of the movie. But Zaza: That's where, Stanley Stepanic: I Zaza: I Stanley Stepanic: would Zaza: mean, Stanley Stepanic: say... Zaza: when I was growing up, sorry, I just have to ask about this. When I was growing up, I went to Bible school and they used to tell us if you masturbate, that hair is gonna grow on your palms. Is there any connection with... Or no? Okay. Stanley Stepanic: That's another myth about the novel Dracula. I've seen that in some respectable publications, that the reason that Dracula has hair on his palms is that there was a Victorian era, 19th century era superstition that if you masturbate too much you get hair in your palms. I actually spent a long time seeing if I could track anything down about that. There is zero evidence that anyone in the 19th century ever thought that you get hair in your palms. Now, I'm going to go back to the book. The thing that they did think, and you can actually find this in some old medical texts, is they thought you could go blind if you masturbated too much. And they actually believed that a long time ago. Of course, we know that's not true. But, where do hairy palms come from then? Why does Dracula have that? Because that, of course, should make him pretty gross. If he masturbated too much and had hairy palms and he's got hair in his palms, that guy might have been touching himself before he appears in the first couple pages you see it. Geez oh man, he probably just came right out of the bathroom. But... In actuality, the reason he has hairy palms is one of the books that Stoker used for research is talks about werewolves mentions that they have hair in their palms. So he took that from one of the books he used for research and he gave Dracula hairy palms. It's nothing to do with masturbation. Yeah. Zaza: Okay, okay. Stanley Stepanic: Sorry to bum you out. Zaza: Yeah, no, okay. No, no, it's just, it's Stanley Stepanic: I would Zaza: okay. Stanley Stepanic: have made him creepier for sure, you Zaza: Right, Stanley Stepanic: know. Zaza: right, right. Um, yeah, no, Coppola's film was, um, I think it was the first film that I saw about Dracula, to be honest, Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: and my parents didn't Stanley Stepanic: the Zaza: want Stanley Stepanic: musical Zaza: me to, Stanley Stepanic: score, everything was just amazing. Zaza: yeah. And I remembered that I was too young to, I just saw the opening scene and then my, my parents caught me watching it and they're like, yeah, you Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: have to piss off to your room. Stanley Stepanic: yeah, it Zaza: But Stanley Stepanic: was rated Zaza: I remember Stanley Stepanic: R. Zaza: that scene where Gary Oldman sticks. his sword into the cross and then it starts Stanley Stepanic: Oh Zaza: bleeding Stanley Stepanic: yeah, the blood Zaza: at the Stanley Stepanic: coming Zaza: beginning Stanley Stepanic: out. Zaza: where he turns into Dracula and really terrified me and it stayed with me for Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: a very long time and I Stanley Stepanic: Pffft. Zaza: was like I'm not gonna watch that for a while. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: I watched it recently and now preparing for the interview and yeah it's pretty it's not that scary actually it's pretty good it's funny also Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: at times. Stanley Stepanic: yeah it is, you know, it's got some cheese too, but one of the things I like about that movie is the set design, the costume design I thought was awesome. The acting overall I think is great, really like representative of how the characters actually work in the book. There are changes of course, but um, what was I gonna, oh, um, but you, wait, I just lost my train of thought. Wait, what were we just talking about? You were just talking about, okay, oh, um. Zaza: the sticking the sword into the Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: cross and then it starts Stanley Stepanic: but Zaza: bleeding Stanley Stepanic: there are Zaza: and Stanley Stepanic: things added that never happens in the book Zaza: I Stanley Stepanic: never Zaza: see. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: Okay. Stanley Stepanic: um copula adds a sort of like backstory of draculis to Zaza: It's Stanley Stepanic: start Zaza: a good Stanley Stepanic: to give Zaza: detail. Stanley Stepanic: him, you know Yeah And one of the reasons he does that is that now the whole the whole reason that draculis leaving transylvania to go to england is That mina is the reincarnation of his dead his Zaza: Yeah, Stanley Stepanic: dead bride. Zaza: yeah. Stanley Stepanic: That's not that's not in the book Because in the book draculis basically is just moving. He's basically bought some properties in england he's gonna like be a house flipper or something and It doesn't sound very, you know, evil or sinister today. Like, I'm going to buy some properties, you know? Oh, OK, why? So that's a big change that Coppola makes in there. And he kind of has to give that little, you know, backstory at the start to make it seem, you know, more purposeful. So Dracula has some reason for actually like if you've been there for 400 so years, you're obviously doing good. Why do you need to leave? But yeah, the musical score, that film and everything, I was always thought was. Oh, that's what I was going to say. I remember now. One of the things I like about that film is that you can still watch it today and it still has like this sort of like, at least to me, like a timeless quality. And I think one of the reasons for that is Coppola really avoided using CGI because CGI was just on the rise at that time. And he knew if he used too much of it, it would look dated in like a couple of months. So there's only like one or two instances, very brief, with like some torches and those blue lights at the start of the gates that he uses CGI. The rest of the film, he relied entirely on old school filming tricks to make it work. And because of that, you know, it just feels more hands-on and like tangible I guess sometimes but Zaza: Yeah, you can Stanley Stepanic: yeah Zaza: totally Stanley Stepanic: It's got Zaza: say Stanley Stepanic: some Zaza: that. Stanley Stepanic: moments, you know, like where Dracula takes Mina's tears and turns him the diamonds. You're like Really? You got to put that in there But you know other than those moments, I've always Zaza: Yeah, Stanley Stepanic: thought it was Zaza: and Stanley Stepanic: probably Zaza: the Stanley Stepanic: the most Zaza: costumes are great and the locations Stanley Stepanic: oh I love the costumes. Zaza: and like Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: the Stanley Stepanic: Although Zaza: attention Stanley Stepanic: yes. Zaza: to detail and Stanley Stepanic: Oh, Zaza: all Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: of that Stanley Stepanic: it's Zaza: stuff Stanley Stepanic: amazing. Zaza: is fantastic. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah Zaza: By the way, where does this beef between werewolves and vampires come from? Is that a Stanley Stepanic: That's Zaza: recent thing? Stanley Stepanic: a good one. That is a more recent thing. And you know, I forget the film where this first appeared as in the 50s, I think. What the heck was it? But any rate, you know, so the idea that they became like mortal enemies really starts in this, you know, random like B movie or whatever from like the fifth, I forget what it's called. But basically Zaza: Oh, Stanley Stepanic: in Slavic Zaza: so Stanley Stepanic: folklore, Zaza: there's no Stanley Stepanic: the... Zaza: there's no folkloric precedent for this. There's Stanley Stepanic: There Zaza: no. Stanley Stepanic: is but Zaza: There Stanley Stepanic: not Zaza: is. Stanley Stepanic: like that Zaza: Let's Stanley Stepanic: the Zaza: go. Stanley Stepanic: folkloric precedent is that yes All right Is that the base of the vamp one of the few things the vampire could transform into not a bat they didn't transform the bats They could transform in the Ravens or they could transform into a wolf and the reason for this whoops I'm gonna say the reason they could transform into a wolf in some cases or control wolves like Dracula does is because this connects This is that doable the dual belief dual faith thing. I talked about earlier in The original Slavic priest, you know, when they were pagan, they were called the Volkov. Volk means wolf, you know. Wait, do you speak Slovenian? Oh Zaza: Yeah, yeah, Stanley Stepanic: yeah, of course, Zaza: yeah. Stanley Stepanic: you lived there. Zaza: It's my native. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Zaza: Yeah, we have Vogue. Stanley Stepanic: So, that's what it is in Slovenia, the Volk. Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, yeah. So, it means wolf. So basically, the reason the Slavic pagan priest was called the Volkov is because they would wear the skin of a wolf to get more power, basically. Zaza: That's badass. Stanley Stepanic: And so, what happened over time is that... when the church was fighting against the vampires, essentially a form of like, you know, heresy almost, they condemned these ideas. And then as the Volkov as an image died over time in certain areas, the vampire absorbed parts of the Volkov image and they became this, in certain areas you find the vampire is described in folklore as being very hairy in the grave and then could change into a wolf. And that would like be all that it would change into. Because basically it's a connection to that old religious tradition and the vampire just like absorbed it and kept it. So. Essentially what that means is that in certain areas at least, vampire and the werewolf are basically the same thing. And not different at all. They're the same entity. They wouldn't fight each other because they are each other basically. Now, the werewolf then as an image becomes a big thing in Western European folklore right in like the middle of the witch craze around 15th and 16th centuries. We don't know why it happened. It was kind of like a sort of slow yet sudden process at the same time. Some people believe that basically it was a stolen example of Slavic folklore where they, you know, Further to the west, you get some of these ideas about the vampire turning into a wolf, and like Serbian, stuff like that. So possibly somebody from Western Europe heard that, and then it started to find its way into Western European consciousness. It became its own separate thing, but it's difficult to argue because the thing is you have shape-shifting images in the wolves and stuff in Norse culture and all over the world, people being able to shape-shift in the animals. So there's one theory that the vampire and werewolf are basically one and the same thing, but. There's also arguments that the werewolf image in Western Europe is a completely separate idea. We just don't know exactly how it arose, basically. Yeah. Zaza: OK, so this conflict between werewolves and vampires is a completely recent invention. Stanley Stepanic: Media, Zaza: It has nothing Stanley Stepanic: yes, Zaza: to do Stanley Stepanic: media, Zaza: with Stanley Stepanic: yeah. You Zaza: media. OK. Stanley Stepanic: know, I would take time to find the film, but I forget what it's called, you know. Zaza: Right. Yeah, just vampires need a more, how should I put it, a more powerful adversary. So let's set werewolves against them or whatever. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, something like that, yeah, something like that. Zaza: Oh, too bad. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, bummer. Zaza: By the way, you mentioned vampire hunters. at the beginning of the conversation and you said that dogs could also be vampire hunters. Stanley Stepanic: In Zaza: Did Stanley Stepanic: some Zaza: I hear Stanley Stepanic: cases, Zaza: that correctly? Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Yes, Zaza: I wanted Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: to ask you about that earlier. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: Was there an actual profession of a vampire hunter in medieval Europe? Stanley Stepanic: Mm-hmm. Zaza: Because Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, and Zaza: I know Stanley Stepanic: well, Zaza: there Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: are Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: witch hunters. I had a conversation with a historian that's researching witchcraft and witch trials in medieval Europe and she said that witch hunters actually existed. It was just Stanley Stepanic: Mm-hmm. Zaza: people who Stanley Stepanic: Oh Zaza: were Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: conning people but... Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, basically, Zaza: What's the what Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Zaza: was the deal with vampire hunters? Stanley Stepanic: Vampire hunters are part of folklore. So what important detail there is you find them way less in Slavic folklore than you do vampires. And the reason for that is, you know, the stuff you see about vampire hunters in media today, like Dr. Von Helsing using like communion wafer paced and crucifixes, those are all modern inventions. The original vampire hunter wouldn't need like, you know, a gun that shot stakes or they wouldn't even really need to carry garlic or anything like that. And the reason for that is any average peasant could do all that stuff already. You don't need a vampire hunter to do that. The vampire hunter was kind of like a last resort because in many cases, they were, you could probably say in most cases, the vampire hunter was supposed to be half human, half vampire, was a witch hunter in pretty Zaza: Like Stanley Stepanic: much Zaza: a blade. Stanley Stepanic: all cases. Yeah. Where essentially the idea was that a vampire, when it came back from the grave, which in original Slavic belief was only men, and then eventually it could be women and stuff. If a male vampire came back from the grave and sexually assaulted you and you were a woman and got pregnant from it Then the child that's born from that so-called unholy union could be a vampire hunter. They had different names for them like Dom Pied Romperovich was another one, but a special one is what's called the sub what Nick? How do you say Saturday in Slovenian? Zaza: Sobota. Stanley Stepanic: So both I and polish it so both Russian it's to both. Yeah, same route sabote Saturday seventh day of the week So if you were born on Saturday in certain areas, it was believed you could have vampire hunting powers You weren't half the Empire you were a human but you had these special vampire hunting powers because that was a sacred day So it's called the subordinate. So if you had a dog Born on Saturday check your doggy birth dates that dog could be essentially more skilled Finding a vampire in a cemetery, you know, so you'd Zaza: That just Stanley Stepanic: go around Zaza: it born Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: on a Saturday. That's the Stanley Stepanic: that's me. Zaza: one condition Stanley Stepanic: Yeah Zaza: you have to, okay. Stanley Stepanic: Prime one of the primary ones that there are other things, you know There's the dog have this certain hair color or is it's one eye different or something like that But if the dog was born on a Saturday or if you were born on a Saturday Look at your birthday. You could be a legit Zaza: Tuesday, Stanley Stepanic: sub Zaza: I'm Stanley Stepanic: what Zaza: a Tuesday baby, Stanley Stepanic: they Zaza: too bad. Stanley Stepanic: ah No Zaza: Too Stanley Stepanic: bummer Zaza: bad, yeah, Stanley Stepanic: Maybe with Zaza: that Stanley Stepanic: the Zaza: sucks. Stanley Stepanic: you know leap year in there or something you could finagle it Zaza: By the way, vampires were sexually assaulting people as well, you just said. It wasn't just Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: they woke up in the middle of the night and bit somebody and drank some blood. They were sexually Stanley Stepanic: No. Zaza: assaulting people and then they believed Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, they- Zaza: that I have vampire baby was born. I mean, how did that go? That sounds completely nuts. Stanley Stepanic: Where did it come from? Zaza: Yeah, and how did they say which baby was a half vampire then? Stanley Stepanic: Well, Zaza: Did the woman claim that she was assaulted like during Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: the night Stanley Stepanic: so, Zaza: by a Stanley Stepanic: you Zaza: vampire Stanley Stepanic: know, there's some, Zaza: or? Stanley Stepanic: there's some debate about that, but the basic theory is that if you had a child born outside of wedlock, I mean, today, no one really cares. Well, depending on where you are in the world. In like United States, if you have a child born outside of wedlock, if you're not on like a really strict Christian or whatever background, most people probably don't care that much unless, you know, you're viewed as being too young to be able to really raise it. But you know, if you were like in your twenties and had a baby before being married, probably most people wouldn't care. But back then that was like big taboo. So, you know, if you had a husband and your husband died and you weren't pregnant and then suddenly, you know, like a couple months after he's dead, like you're pregnant, people will be like, wait a minute, why do you, your husband died though. So how are you like five months if he died, you know? Or how are you three months along if he died four months ago? So, you know, it's kind of harsh, but essentially what the argument is, is that in certain cases, to make their child more socially acceptable, they'd say, well, you know, I didn't want to say anything, but you know, vampire kind of, you know, attacked me and you know, here's the baby now, but hey, it hunts vampires, see, so hey, we're good. So it basically gives the child some sort of social relevance now. And in certain cases, there are probably children that were raised to actually believe they were that, you know, where it was like actually a boyfriend or an affair partner or, you know, someone else, you know, and, you know, that was the actual father, because of course, your vampire shouldn't actually exist. So that's the theories where that came from. But So Boatnik is a special type where you just be born on that day. You know, you got vampire powers now. Um, basically, Zaza: That's Stanley Stepanic: but... Zaza: so cool. Your Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: mother just telling you when you're like 16, you're special because you're a half Stanley Stepanic: You Zaza: vampire Stanley Stepanic: uh, your Zaza: and Stanley Stepanic: dad Zaza: you're Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: a vampire herd. Yeah, yeah. Stanley Stepanic: oh and by the Zaza: Holy Stanley Stepanic: way, I want to Zaza: shit. Stanley Stepanic: add one deep Zaza: That Stanley Stepanic: focus Zaza: must Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, um, Zaza: be Stanley Stepanic: but you Zaza: an identity crisis if there ever was one. Stanley Stepanic: but Zaza: But what did the vampire hunter do then? How did he hunt Stanley Stepanic: Oh, oh Zaza: vampires? Stanley Stepanic: yeah So they would traditionally based on what we know especially from balkans region what we know from the folklore there is the vampire would traditionally hunt with a gun or a knife or both and the reason for this is that in original belief only men could be vampires and um One of the ways you could become a vampire is if you commit suicide. And even in mental health statistics, I used to work in mental health for a little while, even in mental health statistics today, when men commit suicide, they tend statistically to choose more violent methods than women do. So they'll take a gun or they'll take a knife. So knife and gun were essentially like sort of focus symbols of male suicide. So if you had this vampire that the regular, this is why you call upon the vampire hunter, you've already done the crosses or maybe the garlic. Maybe you burn the body and there's still vampire attacks. So obviously this one's a little more powerful We need someone that can like see into like the supernatural plane of existence to kill this thing now And now you go get them and they would you know, so they're basically would be using the gun or the knife Symbolically like to sort of like it's almost like, you know using spiritual power like the witcher or something to kill the vampire Supernaturally and to basically erase this existence So that's essentially how they would work and they would have these sort of like bizarre ritual processes. They would do One of the things we know, for example, is they would take hawthorn berries or leaves or bark, and they would chew on that because hawthorn is another example of Slavic lore. It's known for curative functions. So they would like chew on hawthorn to get more powers in, and they were supposed Zaza: Hawthorne. Stanley Stepanic: to be able to then have height. Yeah, it's like a small busher tree that's known for being resistant to plant diseases and stuff like that. And just so you know, I usually leave about at 10 o'clock or 10 o' five to go teach because I teach at 1030. I'm just letting you know. Zaza: Oh, right, cool. Yeah, thanks. I just have two quick questions. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, okay, let's go. Zaza: So Eastern European folklore is finally having a bit of a moment under the sun, mainly due to the success of The Witcher, which we already mentioned, Stanley Stepanic: Yes. Zaza: the Netflix fantasy show, which was adapted from a series of fantasy novels. Stanley Stepanic: Mm-hmm. Zaza: Also a famous video game developed by a Polish studio. I think it's called Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: Project Stanley Stepanic: yeah, which Zaza: Red. Stanley Stepanic: are one, two, three, yeah, I forget who Zaza: Yeah, Stanley Stepanic: did those, Zaza: yeah. Stanley Stepanic: but yeah. Zaza: Awesome. RPG games. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, really good. Zaza: Do you think this is just the beginning and that we Slavs are finally getting our due when it comes to pop culture? Or is this just a fad Stanley Stepanic: I mean maybe, Zaza: brought on Stanley Stepanic: you Zaza: by Stanley Stepanic: know, Zaza: the Witcher? Stanley Stepanic: yeah. Here's the thing, the same thing happened with The Vampire. Whether or not something becomes a big fat and sticks, it depends what people are paying for basically. A good analogy there is if you look at like the current popularity of comic book films, you know, that basically starts with Blade in 1998 is basically where that starts. That film basically starts that whole industry. So here we are, what is this? How many years later? Will we be 25 years later? And we're still seeing comic book films. How long will that last? Zaza: That's all we're Stanley Stepanic: As long Zaza: seeing, Stanley Stepanic: as we Zaza: unfortunately. Stanley Stepanic: pay for it. Yeah, as long as we pay for it, they'll keep making them. We'll eventually fall to popularity. Maybe, maybe not. So it's kind of fickle. It's audience taste really, if audiences are like, I want some more stuff like The Witcher. What else is there? And someone makes something else, they're like, oh yeah. It could happen, but it just kind of depends on audience taste and what they decide to consume or what they think they should at least. I better watch this, everyone else is. Something like that, yeah. Zaza: You teach, I did a little bit of digging, hashtag investigative Stanley Stepanic: Mm-hmm. Zaza: journalist here and quickly discovered that you teach an extremely popular university course on Dracula and Stanley Stepanic: Yeah. Zaza: vampires, which means you've devoted a hefty portion of your life to this piece of Eastern European folklore. Stanley Stepanic: been that long. Zaza: When did this Stanley Stepanic: Dang. Zaza: dark romance begin Stanley Stepanic: Oh, it's Zaza: and why? Stanley Stepanic: dark room in. I can say a lot actually. You know, as a kid, by coincidence, I wish I had it on hand here, but I actually do have a photograph of me when I was, it was my sixth birthday party and I wanted a Halloween themed birthday party and I dressed as Dracula for that. Now the reason I did that is because I had the costume from that Halloween because I was born in November. But at any rate, you know, people sometimes see that picture. They're like, well, obviously as a kid you were like, You're vampire obsessed. I wasn't you know, I just like anybody else in America I've just surrounded by vampire images just in various ways of media chicken McNugget toys movies comic books TV shows It's just you know something I knew about but for me in particular the house I grew up in my parents home my birth home Well, actually not my birth home technically. I mean they moved into that home after I was born but the home where I spent most of my childhood and stuff in up until we I got married basically was Originally built in 1823 and it came with all these stories about ghosts that there is this woman whose husband died in World War and then civil war and she She committed suicide by starving herself in the living room and you'll see her wandering the house and her in her wedding dress and you know So I would say that's part of the reason why as a kid I always had this interest in like ghosts and ghost stories and horror I can tell you another turning point because you mentioned that like Dracula 1992 with the stabbing of the cross was a turning point for you. A big turning point for me in interest in horror and creepy things was the 1982 film, The Thing, which my father, or was that 1983? Zaza: Right. Stanley Stepanic: Whenever that came out, Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: yeah, my father had me, sat me down and had me watch it on television, I think as far as I remember, when I was like six. That was probably Zaza: Whoa! Stanley Stepanic: not a good idea, but man, was it definitely something memorable. Have you seen the movie, of course, probably? Zaza: Yeah, that's Carpenter, right? Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, like, you know, like near Zaza: Yeah, Stanley Stepanic: the start Zaza: yeah. Stanley Stepanic: whenever like it's in the dogs there and it starts to like have these tentacle Zaza: Yeah, yeah, Stanley Stepanic: things It's like Zaza: it's scary. Stanley Stepanic: I Zaza: Yeah. Stanley Stepanic: was like, ah As a kid that was a big influence on me getting into like creepy stuff The thing was like I still consider that to my for this day to be my favorite film in history Uh is that film in particular? I could watch that every day. It's such a perfect movie But any rate, yeah so these various things like that just had me have a natural interest in like ghosts and things and As a kid, from third to fifth grade, I was bullied quite a bit. So I got more interested in comic books and music and things. So I just kind of did my own thing and just had an interest in this stuff. And then sometimes I have students that ask me, how did you get where you are? You seem like you're very successful in what you do, teaching class on vampires and other stuff, and I always say the same thing. It's just like when I was younger, I just had a bunch of experiences. I did a lot of things. Sometimes I was good at them. Sometimes I wasn't. But it didn't matter if I was good or not. It just... Now I'd say I'm a pretty interesting person that has a lot of experiences and all those experiences came together to this course and other things too, you know what I mean, basically. So I was never like a vampire freak, Zaza: Lovely. Stanley Stepanic: I just knew about them and now of course I know a lot about vampires because I kind of have to. Zaza: It's only a matter of time before a Hollywood studio comes knocking and picks your brain Stanley Stepanic: Well, you Zaza: about Stanley Stepanic: know, Zaza: a new Stanley Stepanic: this is a funny story. Zaza: potential Stanley Stepanic: I've actually been contacted by Zaza: incarnation. Stanley Stepanic: a number of casting producers to be on TV shows. And the closest I got, I forget who the guy was, but they were doing a casting call for a host for a show that was gonna be on the Travel Channel. That show eventually became, I think it's called Legends of the Lost. And the person I lost out to who became the host of that show was Megan Fox. So if you look up the show, the show was called something like... Lessons of the Lost, it only lasted one season because you know, Megan Fox is an actress and not like an expert on like mystery or anything. So you know, they decided to get, because whenever I had the interview I told them, I'm like, now listen, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be a host of the show if you're gonna have me talk about a bunch of, sorry, bullshit. Like I'll talk about like facts because honestly, if you take the approach of facts, I think people will find it a lot more interesting to learn about like actual folklore than they would you know, did aliens build this pyramid? No. Zaza: Oh, Stanley Stepanic: Why don't Zaza: like Stanley Stepanic: you actually? Zaza: ancient aliens. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, you know, so and I guess that's the direction they wanted to go. So they got Megan Fox, you know, who was a pretty well known Zaza: Now, Stanley Stepanic: actress. Zaza: after they see this interview, they'll come around and come Stanley Stepanic: Maybe, Zaza: knocking Stanley Stepanic: yeah, Zaza: again. Stanley Stepanic: maybe this will finally be the successful cataclysm. Yeah. Zaza: Last question, I know you have to go really soon. It's really quick. The title of this podcast is Euro Trash, so I have to ask you something trashy at the end. I have to be honest, it's a rather personal question. During the Twilight era, were you Team Edward or Team Jacob and why? Stanley Stepanic: Honestly, I wasn't team anything. My wife was really into the books. I bought her all the books She liked the books we watched the movies together, you know So those are some dates there and stuff like that But I you know, I watched it as a vampire scholar basically just interested in where it was going and why it got so popular And stuff like that, but I mean honestly, I think my favorite character in the whole film Was that one like Russian vampire dude with the pale white hair. I just liked his character I don't even remember what his name was, but like at the final battle scene Zaza: Neither Stanley Stepanic: when he's running, he's like all smiling and all excited to fight the vampires. I'm like, I don't know why I like that guy. Zaza: I'm Stanley Stepanic: Other Zaza: gonna go. Stanley Stepanic: than that, you know, I could care less about the movie, basically. Zaza: Okay, fair enough. Stanley Stepanic: Movies. Zaza: Professor Stepanik, where can people find your work? Do you have any online courses, social media, anything Stanley Stepanic: Oh, Zaza: of the sort? Stanley Stepanic: well, the Dracula course in the summer, and I guess it could be taken online, because I do digital, but you have to enroll through UVA. My textbooks are all digital, so you technically can buy them. But they're basically built for my different courses. I've got Russian folklore textbook, like you mentioned earlier, and film textbook, which I think they're great. And they're very resource. They've got lots of interesting resources and history and stuff in there and some new stuff that I have uncovered over the years. But you know. In terms of actual publications, I have something that was recently published for an archive, but since it's an archival book, it will cost you $519 to buy it if you actually want that book. But the textbooks, which are digital, you know, that's typical for archival stuff, the textbooks, which are digital, are like, you know, $55, $75 or something. They're pretty reasonable for as big as they are. But other than that, I do have a video on Ted Ed about Dracula. It's not me talking. It's a different voice actor, but I wrote it. It's got a... couple million views, which I think is kind of cool. I also did a series of videos about the novel Dracula for Course Hero. It's basically like an interactive study guide kind of thing on YouTube about the novel Dracula I've done. I wasn't too happy with the way I looked in there, like my suit and stuff, but that's just a, you know, superficial thing. So I've done stuff like that. You know, you can find little articles on stuff I've done online and some other interviews and things, but other than Zaza: Awesome. Stanley Stepanic: that, you know, that's about it. Zaza: Thank you so much, Professor Stepanik. This was fascinating. Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: I Stanley Stepanic: thank Zaza: hope we Stanley Stepanic: you. I appreciate Zaza: get to do Stanley Stepanic: it. Zaza: it again. Thank you so Stanley Stepanic: Yeah, Zaza: much. Stanley Stepanic: thank you. See ya.