Latest / Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman / Sharon Gilmartin on Brain Trauma, Sports Safety, and Public Health Solutions

Transcript

Sharon Gilmartin on Brain Trauma, Sports Safety, and Public Health Solutions · Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Hey folks, welcome to another episode of Broken Brains with your host, bruce Parkman, sponsored by the Mack Parkman Foundation, the national voice for repetitive brain trauma, to include repetitive head impacts from contact sports, repetitive blast exposure for our veterans and supporting education, awareness and advocacy of these issues so we can make sports safer and we can protect our veterans once they get done serving our country.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Advocates and other nonprofit organizations that look at this issue from different perspectives so that you can be informed, because the issue of repetitive brain trauma is not taught in our nursing, medical and psychiatric schools.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: It is completely unknown when our children, our husbands or our wives are suffering mental illness from a point of being the focal point of treatment, which means we have the largest preventable cause of mental illness in this country, and we're going to talk about that today with our amazing guest, ms Sharon Gilmartin.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Here live from Safe States, which is one of the really awesome organizations that we're a partner with.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Ms Gilmartin, mph, is the Executive Director at Safe States Alliance and is located in Greensboro, north Carolina.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: She is a dedicated public health leader with a strong background in organizational management to support upstream public health initiatives.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Ms Gilmartin is passionate about improving health outcomes through data-driven strategies, cross-sector collaboration and partner engagement.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: She's skilled in navigating the federal funding landscape to secure resourcesctor collaboration and partner engagement.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: She's skilled in navigating the federal funding landscape to secure resources, develop efforts and support a team to enhance workforce capacity, while advocating for policy change and leading prevention initiatives.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Karen joined SafeStates in 2014, previously serving as a traffic safety research and policy analyst with the American Automobile Association and a research fellow at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: She's earned her undergraduate degree from the University of North Carolina, chapel Hill, and her Master of Public Health in Social and Behavioral Sciences from the University of Washington in Seattle.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: She's responsible for overseeing the initiatives and operations of Safe States Alliance, including direction and leadership to achieve Safe States Alliance's mission and strategic plan.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Sharon, welcome to the show.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me Excited to be here.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man We've worked with.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I'm speaking at your conference here next month, so that's pretty exciting.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: So, let's talk about Safe States and then get into why you volunteered to be over there and what you're doing.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And then the issue of, you know, brain trauma, brain repair, workforce assessment, the whole nine yards.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: We got a long list of things to talk about.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Well, let's kick it off.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Well, let me share a little bit about Safe States.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: First, For those of you who don't know us which is hard to believe we are a national nonprofit and membership association and we're dedicated to advancing injury and violence prevention.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I think when I say injury and violence prevention, people kind of nod along and they say so you keep people from falling down.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: So let me just say in plain English you know, in public health, when we talk about injury and violence prevention, this is actually a huge range of really critical issues that affect every single community, Right?
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: So we are talking about brain injuries, Obviously we're talking about today, but we're also talking about things like drowning.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: We're talking about things like motor vehicle crashes, prescription drug overdose, suicide, domestic violence, the gamut that is all under us.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And so we recognize that it's really diverse.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: It's a complex field, and so we recognize that it's really diverse.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: It's a complex field and that's why we're out here.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: We're here to support the professionals doing the work in our communities, day in and day out, to provide them training and resources and to keep them up to speed on best practices, knowledge, awareness about how to do the work the most effectively as they can.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And that's a you know, that's a huge mission, of course, that we all know about, and unfortunately the issue of repetitive brain trauma touches a lot of the public policy areas you're talking about.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: We find through our analysis of incarcerated victims that you know the changes to the brain from military service or contact sports results in.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: You know, domestic or contact sports results in domestic abuse, domestic violence, domestic abuse, violence and crime, overall incarceration, suicidal and homicidal ideation.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: We've got an entire list of social ills right now that could be addressed by simply prioritizing brain health a little bit more.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about you know in your focus right now when you look at brain trauma.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: We'll just take the big issue of brain trauma without diving into the repetitive brain part at this time.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: What are you seeing out there?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I mean because we work with the Brain Injury Association of America and there are huge gaps in care for people that have had you know, head trauma and TBI yeah, you know, I think there's not only gaps in care for people that have had, you know, head trauma and TBI work to do.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: We work through CDC and with our members we work on a number of different things.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: There is a national concussion surveillance system that would provide the nation's first ever really comprehensive national estimates of traumatic brain injury, because part of it is we don't fully understand the scope right.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: There are so many unreported cases or underreported cases that for us to really even know just how pervasive is this problem and then really to distill down into those trends and the populations that are at higher risk and I know you all are very familiar with those, but for the most part folks are not there's a lot of great work already happening in schools and in sports leagues, in particular on the prevention side.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: But you know, I'll tell you, bruce, I'm a parent and I watch the kids get sent right back out onto the field because they're sort of still that.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Well, you're okay, be tough, toughen up head back attitude toughen up Exactly.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: So I think, as much progress as we've made, we still have a lot of runway to go.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, no, and there's no doubt that your organization's really addressing this issue from a change perspective.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And where are you finding the most success right now with, let's just say, contact or sports in general?
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Right, we know that we have overstudied concussions to death, okay, and we just cannot research concussions anymore.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on concussions.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: We're good.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: And while I do agree that a lot of change is happening there, the issue of repetitive head impacts and those subconcussive impacts is still not known.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: How would you think we could, you know, better educate and inform populations?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Cause you, as a parent watching that kid go back on, you know you're trusting the coach, you're trusting the doctor to say the concussions cleared or cleared or healed, he can go back on.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Yet we now know that those two populations of people to include, you know, you know our, our nursing and psychiatric people, are just not educated.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that's exactly right.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I hate to say that it comes down to training, because I don't want it to still down to some individual level responsibility, but the reality is that these decisions are happening one-on-one.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: These decisions are happening with your coach, with your healthcare professional, with your school nurse, your teacher, and so we do really have to do this full court press on our trainings.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: We have more than 10 million coaches and healthcare people you know all those groups that I talked about.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: That's a huge audience, and to have them really up to speed on what the TBI guidelines are for identification care and then return to work or return to play, that's a big undertaking.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: So I do think that is going to be one of the most important things for us to make sure everybody really understands what are we looking for and how do we respond.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: And there is a social norms component to that too.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: You know, just like we were talking about the what we all grew up with around what we value, especially in the sports world, you know, around tenacity and resilience.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have to shift those norms a little bit too.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: You only have one brain.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: We've got to be as protective of it as possible.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: And how do we shift those?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have conversations all the time with parents, with coaches, nfl players, and I think I've had one guy in thousands of conversations push back and say, well, I don't agree, everybody is there.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: We've got science, we've got research and we've got logic right.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: So you know, how do we, you know, change this dynamic?
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Does it take legislation or does it?
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Can this be like a grassroots effort, like we've got several partnerships?
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Earlier we were working with Headsafe from Britain on this same issue, right, great people man, great mission.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: You know, parallel issue, right?
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: You know how do we educate and you know, I mean, how do we get this word out?
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think there's any one way to do it, and I think that's something that we all have to think about is what are the multiple things that, cumulatively, will get us there?
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, I think we can do grassroots, like you said, ground up, but we also have to do top down.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: In public health, we sort of talk about people operating in rings, right, so you're the individual at the very center, but you're surrounded by your family, you're surrounded by your school or your organization, you're surrounded by your community, and it just keeps expanding out, and you're just that little nesting doll in the middle.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: So there are things we can do at each one of those levels to affect those social norms, and so policy is a great example of one at that community or societal level.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: But there's also organizational policies, there's school policies, there are a cultural norm.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: You know, I think having our professional athletes acknowledging this and talking about this NFL is such an incredible messenger.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: They've done phenomenal work in this space already and really are continuing to do that.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: You know, those are people that people look to as role models.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Those are people that they're tuning into their TV every Sunday night, monday night, sometimes Thursday night, saturday night it feels like every night in my house.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: The NFL is not really taking this on.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's some window dressing there.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: They have not acknowledged repetitive head impacts as a significant issue or something to be addressed.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Yet their actions, if we look at this from a polyperspective when you shorten the distance aren't kickoffs right when you allow people to wear the helmets.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: And this is not just the NFL.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: The NHL has changes.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: You know, the soccer, usa soccer has made some changes and we'll talk about some of this here in a second.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: But when you make these changes, you're acknowledging that you have a problem and the problem is damage to the brains.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: And they, like the military, are wrestling as a corporation with how do we, you know, propose solutions to this without damaging the brain?
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, and that's what they're wrestling with right now.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Concussions again.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: We, we researched them again, but we now know that the problem is not concussions.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: You know you're talking to a man who's had eight or nine I don't know how many concussions I've had from contact, sports and military service, but had a lot.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: But you know, we now know that RHI, even from the CT community, that's the root cause of CTE and by eliminating it we do a lot.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Cause of CTE and by eliminating it we do a lot.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: So, but to your point, that is the messenger that should be working with you and I to get this out.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: And I do think that pendulum is moving.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: I think because they are now aware that, you know, nobody wants football to go away, but we all want football to be safer and for people to play it and not have to spend the rest of their life Like my NFL buddies.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: You know, they're, they're, they're challenged man, you know, and they've got to live with this forever.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: So how do we invoke this so like on the industrial side?
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: So when you start talking about public health, how would you propose and this came up in our last podcast that you know, repetitive brain trauma and its impact on our society can be measured every year in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: The impact on our society, okay, how?
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Yet it's not classified as a public health risk or a public safety problem.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: How could we work?
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, number one, who creates a public safety risk, right?
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Is that the CDC, nih?
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: But who would we have to work with to get them to say you know what?
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: We've looked at all this stuff out here, man, and I'm sorry, it's time We've got to say you know enough, right?
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I mean how, what, in your, your opinion, cause you work at this level?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Um, how, who could we work with?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Or how could that type of uh, emphatic identification of a problem take place?
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: You know it's a great question and it's a little bit sticky to answer, to be quite honest.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: So the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, which is one of the centers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, cdc, has been trying to make headway in this area.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: For your listeners who have not been following along, there were some pretty significant reductions in staff at the CDC earlier this year in April.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, there were.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: The three of the four branches at the injury center were largely decimated and the one that works on this type of injury in particular was hit the hardest.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: So they pretty much eliminated the entire division.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: So what we're seeing is that the leading national agency who was giving dedicated attention to this topic building capacity, working on the research, data support management has been eliminated and there's no plan at this point to reinstate those staff.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: They are all still on administrative leave, but they have not received any indication that their jobs will be coming back up.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: So I think the expectation is that they will be permanently let go.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: So that leaves a huge gap in our federal infrastructure for how we do this and when you work with, you know, the CDC Injury Center.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: They work with the state health departments, they work with the YMCAs, they work with the community organizations.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Actually, 80% of their funding actually goes out the door to community partners to do exactly this type of work.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: We think there's a really significant concern for those of us in the field about what will happen to the progress that we've made in this area because of these cuts, and what do we expect moving forward.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to ask you how the new administration has approached this.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I was aware that there were, you know, a lot of significant cuts, for whatever reasons.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: You know that stays off the table here.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't get into politics, but there have been cuts and at the same time they have impacted a lot of programs that you know are, I think, essential.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: And this particular one, and understanding and getting out the word of a unique requirement, I mean of a unique risk that we now understand is affecting millions of kids.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: You know we got to get this out.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: So I mean that's kind of hard to hear.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I did not know the cuts went all the way through.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: You know, is there any chance with?
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: You know the whole Robert, you know the new lead, for you know our're talking 15 to 20 years of knocking on the CDC and NIH doors to have them repetitively deny RHI as a health risk.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think, and even though the NIH has proved or said that the traumatic encephalopathy syndrome validation or the checklist is proper but needs to be validated, this is still largely it's not on any of the CDC concussion materials.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: It was on one and they took it down.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: There's been no PSAs.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: So do you think that maybe we have a chance with the new administration to maybe make this an issue where we've kind of been?
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: You know, we've had so many roadblocks before in both of our organizations?
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm not talking about politics, I'm looking at perception.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: We might have somebody here that looks at things a little bit differently than you know, your typical guy, that or girl that is raised in the government and tends to be a little bit more risk adverse or a little bit more, let's say, bureaucratic in nature, and I deal with government people all the time, so I'm authorized to say that.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: But I don't know.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Do we have a chance, with Mr Kennedy in office, to spike this up?
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Hey, we always have a chance.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love your attitude.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Love your attitude Always have a chance.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: We always have a chance.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: So here's the reality, right.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Every time there's a change in administration, there's a change in priorities, and that's history for you.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Right now, what we've seen from RFK is that his priorities are focused on food, food quality, access to food, vaccines, things like that.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: One of the things that we do through our work is around advocacy, and when people think about advocacy, a lot of times they think about changing laws and things like that.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: But advocacy goes far beyond that.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Right, we're talking about educating the people who need to hear about the value and impact of a various set of programs.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: So we have been doing a lot of advocacy around how valuable these various efforts are.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Especially, you know, we've been talking about the overdose prevention work.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: That's been a big one because that is a priority of this administration and you know we want to emphasize that.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Hey, the investments that we're making at the federal level, they improve your community and they improve all of us.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: You know all of us benefit.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: And so I think we have a huge opportunity to do the same thing with brain injury and to really elevate that and help them understand the positive role that their agency can be playing in reducing these preventable injuries.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Right and to your point.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I mean Lord, if we could calculate the impact and some people have calculated the impact of you know you're talking 2.4 or 5 million concussions go unreported, right.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Then you look at and that's everything from car crashes to horse accidents, to falling off roofs, whatever it is right, and then those aren't preventable.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I mean God.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Some people say God created accidents for a reason.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Right, who knows?
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: But accidents, happen.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, bruce, in public health we say that we don't call them accidents.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: We say that they're incidents, because every accident is preventable.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know that.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Well, you're right, because if that guy didn't clear his airspace and run into my parachute and collapse it, I would have not had my unfortunate incident, had my unfortunate incident.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: And then, if the other guy hit the bullet trap, instead of missing it and hitting the wall and spraying bullet fragments in my face, that was preventable, you know, and I could have tackled better in rugby.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: You're right, almost all incidents are preventable, but sometimes the planet's doing a lot.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: But they're preventable to a certain degree, but accidents are going to happen.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Right, we will never prevent accidents, but here's an issue that can be prevented.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: We can prevent repetitive brain trauma, you know, by limiting, you know preventing exposure to, like high school, when a kid's brains are in its most critical and vulnerable state, and then taking the contact out of practice, we reduce the total aggregate load, which saves brains, it saves futures.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Kids don't go to jail, they don't get in fights, men don't beat their wives and all these other ills that come out of having damaged brains.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: And so to your point, I mean to calculate that, I think would be that'd be a critical.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe we should work on that Work on that exercise.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: That number will get some attention, man.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: We're talking billions.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: We can put that together, man.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Let's do it Because you know I'll tell you the numbers that I do have.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So we have these hair guidelines for traumatic brain injury right, for traumatic brain injury right.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: We've heard that even just implementation of the existing care guidelines that we have would reduce TBI deaths by an estimated 50%, save $305 million annually in medical and rehab costs and then reduce lifetime societal costs for survivors with severe injury by $3.8 billion.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: And that's just the guidelines that we have right.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: That's not expanding out and going one step further.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: No, that's the guidelines and that doesn't even take into consideration the millions of Americans that and it's not just contact sports skateboarders, right, bmx guys, boat operators, you know, and we've got all these other military occupations that are coming into this now, the fighter guys that slam their jets on aircraft carriers.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: We have got millions more out there and we talked to them on this show.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: They're like dude, I'm hurting man, I can't.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: You know, I got to get treatment.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And then the cost of treatment, even for those existing ones.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: If we got them off, those long-term psychiatric medicines, oh my Lord, I mean we could save so much money and put people back in the chair.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, definitely would like to work on that, because it is that's how you get attention right.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: How much money can you save me and can you make me look good?
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: And we could literally make the Robert Kennedy guys and all of that.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Maha, whoever you come from, I don't care, this is not a political issue, this is children, and we could make them look, oh my God, so good.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And if, by that, working with the professional leagues to make the same small changes and promote brain health.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: So here's a question for you.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: All right, I asked this of almost everybody comes on the show and you work in this stuff.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: So you go to a doctor's office, right, and he puts the stethoscope on your heart and he has you breathe in, and then he smacks your knee with that little rubber hammer and he asks you some questions.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, great.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Does he ask you anything about your brain?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: No, no, right.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: And every problem, 90% of the problems that you have, whether they're gut problems, physiological problems, mental health problems, all come from your brain.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Your brain controls your body, sure, so we are looking at a movement right now.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: If we prioritized brain health, if we worked with Safe States to look at what you're doing for brain health, not just treatment, because that's post, that's post-injury, post-playing, post, all this stuff.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: What about prevention?
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: What if we made brain optimization right?
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Every time you go to a doctor, we know there's helmets, now they can slap these things on your head.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: It's like an EKG where you put all those electrodes on you and they hit the button and it prints out a report.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It says, hey, your brain looks great.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Or, oh, man, you should probably.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: If you have been playing contact and they have a list of questions, it's like, oh, you need to go see a neurologist, because we have another problem here.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: That does not happen in any doctor visit in this country.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: By the time you get to the neurologist, you've been in the car crash or you're already sliding down the hill.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: So do you?
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Does Safe, safe, safe?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Focus on prevention as well.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I think you mentioned that a little bit earlier.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: As far as as your core mission, right?
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: yeah, oh, prevention is our bread and butter because it's like you said, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and we can expect so many better outcomes if we focus on the prevention side, versus having to mitigate the effects down the line Once one brain injury, multiple brain injuries, have occurred.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And so the prevention space is where we really focus.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Again, like you said, you know, a lot of that emphasis does go down to youth.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: So there is a huge opportunity there to be thinking about all of these other scenarios in which adults are at risk.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: A huge opportunity there to be thinking about all of these other scenarios in which adults are at risk, because we do tend to really think about those youth sports in particular, and other areas like that and that's where we have the most consistent access for prevention purposes.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Kids got to go to school, right.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: That is a no-brainer opportunity to access kids in a very consistent and sustained way.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: We don't often have that same consistent and sustained interaction with adults in that same systematic way to be able to reach them in a very routine, preventive fashion.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Medical offices probably are the best opportunity for that for our adults who, hopefully, are utilizing preventive care on an annual basis, which is a whole other conversation.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: No, it is not.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: That is a whole nother conversation.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, I think prevention will pay off because, like you said, you know you can talk about brain injury as the outcome, or you can talk about brain injury as the risk factor for all of these other outcomes, and that's you know.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: We don't want the brain injury as an outcome for itself, but we also want to head off all of these other negative things that can happen down the line as a result.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, how nice would it be?
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: You know you get the drug commercials right For whatever drug.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: If you've got these symptoms Zymbalta, viagra, whatever right you know, take this pill, all right.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Well, what about?
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Hey, you know, just to commercialize.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: If you have played or know anybody that's played a lot of contact sports or has been in the military suffered mental illness, you know you could suffer from this issue.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Or you walk into a doctor's office, you walk in and they got all the.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: You know all these things if you're.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: You know, depending on their specialty, these little warnings that are out there like hey, be aware of this.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Yet we're not aware.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And prevention, as you say, oh my gosh, if we can keep any child or athlete from running down that slippery slope, we are saving them.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: And now it's just not a money now.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Now it becomes a moral and human issue, as we're protecting a person's future and we're giving them the chance that God gave them to become the person the Lord wants them to be.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: And that is taken away from them when we allow our kids to play these contact sports or participate.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And on the military side, we have the VA right.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: The VA, yes, needs to do a better job.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: But and I spoke on this the other day is like you know we start talking about.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I was part of a brain health conference for the military and we're saying well, the military is all worried about recruitment going down because if wore a funny green hat for 18 of my 21 years, I blew things up around the world and got to date very beautiful women from other continents, the whole nine yards.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: I loved my job and I did it because the VA was there.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: And now the VA needs to be educated on that, and not just the VA.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: To your point, all our other insurance companies that are out there are completely not cognizant of this issue, not just the VA.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: But the VA is coming around.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: They're actually way ahead of the commercial industry, but they are unaware from a cost and there's another thing a cost benefit analysis.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: If they can identify these people right now and treat their brains, the long-term costs to the healthcare industry are reduced and we start talking bottom line money to the healthcare industry.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I think that might be something else we could partner on, because they're all about shaving costs.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: And, to your point, not only does a pound of prevention or an ounce of prevention prevent a pound of cure, but if we can cut the pounds of cure down to one pound instead of five pounds because of more awareness and better treatment options.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I know I've said a lot there, but thoughts on some of that.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you know the most recent estimate that I've seen around the cost, the total annual health care costs of TBIs, $40.6 billion, with a B billion dollars to the health care industry.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: And you know, if that's not compelling in and of itself, I don't know what is.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: No.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: That's taxpayer money, man.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's all going there, and I think that you know the amount of money we spend on mental health treatments and just all this cost that we don't we can't even calculate this right now.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: 2.4 billion Americans have played contact sports since the 80s.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot of bodies, right.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: How many of them have suffered because of long-term exposure because they love their sports?
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Right, and nobody's at fault here, except you know.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I do think the research community could have done a better job putting it out.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Cdc, nih could have absolutely done a better job recognizing this, and the professional leagues just need to wake up and say look, we can make sports safer Outside of that, right, not pointing fingers.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: I think that you know we have an opportunity here to address a.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Look, you know, because people are like I don't know if I want to open up that box right now.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: You know that's a big box, you know.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think one of the things that's bubbling up for me is that we as a society have to agree that brains are valuable and that this is worth it.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: So, you know, we talk about professional sports.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: We have to agree that the players' brains are more important than our entertainment.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: You know, we all love watching a good tackle as much as the next person.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But what is it to us?
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: What is the cost?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Or even, you know, person, in a more micro way, I look around my neighborhood and the kids zip around.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: You know, on those like e-scooters and the e-bikes and things like that, or even just their regular bikes, hardly anywhere.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Helmets.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: You know, my daughter gives me the hardest time all the time because even when she's riding her dinky little scooter, helmet on, helmet on, well, it's not a value.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: These parents think it's okay to let their kids go helmetless.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Back to you only get one brain.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: I value the brain over being the cool parent who says it's okay to skip the helmet.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: But we have to agree on this.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: We have to come to consensus that this is worth more to us than some of these other trade-offs.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: You know, the statement you just made on American society is that we have to agree on this.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: The thing is, what are we agreeing on, right?
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no To your point.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Why do we have to agree that a child's brain is less important than winning a game, or that, when we look at football, that that football player's future right?
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I've had young men on this podcast saying man, I'm 28, 27, and I'm having problems.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: These young men are looking at the rest of their life going man, this might not be a lot of fun, that's not important, that's not.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: You know these men as human beings, right?
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: As you know, these are God's treasure.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: We all are right Yet to say, hey, you know, let's win, right.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Or hey, get back in there.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Or hey, eight-year-old, hey, we're going to practice hitting the soccer ball all this time.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: We know these things aren't good.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: And I think once we educate, especially those mama bears man, and you're a mama bear, I can tell already, nobody messes with mama bear.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: But I have so many moms call us up and say I need the information.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: My husband wants the kids to play.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: He's not listening to me.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Please show me what to show him, what to do.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: No-transcript.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I will tell you so one of my favorite stories.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I used to work with a researcher who he was one of the first people to put those accelerometers in the helmets to measure the force.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Dude, I need to talk to him so bad, he is phenomenal.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: So he would do these presentations and he would talk about the force of the impacts and the repeated force and you know, really really compelling stuff.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: And he would end every presentation where everybody is down in the dumps you know it's really damning the numbers and every presentation he would end with a picture of his sons in their football uniforms.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: And so it was really an interesting juxtaposition to say, hey, we know that there are all of these risks, but if we're willing to take this step, this step and this step, we can still move forward safely.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And I feel like that's the direction to go.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: We understand what the risks are, we understand what elevates those risks.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: So this is the balance that we're willing to come to.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: This is the break-even point where we can say yes, if, and put some boundaries on it.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And all the changes that we're talking about.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: The only people that could have been probably impacted is Pop Warner or any youth league that is hurting our child's brain.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's no space for you anymore.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Flag football, pop Warner, I can accept 100% right.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: And if anybody's checking under the age of 14, I don't agree with 12 because the prefrontal cortex hasn't started to develop yet.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: And this is everything.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Your child has Everything right behind this forehead.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: It takes most of the trauma contacts for it.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Everything we're talking about.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Look up executive functions of the brain.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: It's all done right here.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: You damage this, your child's damaged.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: That's just a fact.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: It is a fact that's been researched and proven that you have a damaged prefrontal cortex.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: You're a damaged adult.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: But let me talk about those accelerometers Right now.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Do you know that if you are a parent and you want to track the impacts that your kids have taken, there is no technology for it?
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: You cannot buy it.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Every company that's come out with something has disappeared.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: I've looked at them all like Like they've just gone away.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: And you know my conspiracy theory hack goes on, but you cannot buy it.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Yet there are football companies, helmet companies with sensors that are collecting these impacts right now and the parents have no access to it.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Crazy right and the Riddell Riddell has their insight system right it tracks.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: They have millions of hits on our kids.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: None of them are shared with the parents at all.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: They go to the coach.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a huge privacy invasion.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: They're collecting data on our children, data that could indicate that they're being harmed, and I've studied this and we've reached out to people that use it.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: They only sell it to the football teams.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: The data is only given to the coach and they don't share that with the parents, because as soon as the parents see the indications that their kids' brains are being hit, guess how long those children might be playing tackle football, especially at younger ages.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: And so in the end, to your point, we are prioritizing winning in sports over futures and over that brain health, and that, to me, is just morally kind of repugnant, if you ask me.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just I find it a travesty, but you know, that's what we're fighting.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Those are our dragons, right, we are fighting and I just watched the Hobbit movie the other day with my wife.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: We're fighting a dragon, a big fire-breathing dragon, but I think the dragon is hurting right now, man, and I think the dragon wants to talk and I think the dragon wants to be a nicer dragon.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, but I kind of get that Get done.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: You mentioned diagnosis, right, what are you doing to help so a lot of men and women that have played a lot of sports soccer, hockey, wrestling, whatever end up being employable adults out there.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: And we know that we have employable adults out there that have mental health issues and they could be and I'm not even talking about repetitive brain trauma at this point, and they could be, and I'm not even talking about repetitive brain trauma at this point but how do you work with employers to say these are some of the emergent issues or emerging issues?
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: You know, some of these people just need a break man because they're suffering of really no cause.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that's an interesting question.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: So we have not worked directly with employers.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: I'm scanning my mental Rolodex here.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: I don't think that we've worked directly with employers.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of our members do.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I do think, though, you know, we see we've done a little bit of exploration into just workplace wellness broadly, and what we see is that there are things not necessarily in name only, but there is.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: There are these programs that are created within the workplaces, and then the employees, for whatever reason, may or may not be accessing them, and so some of that may have to do with concerns about what gets passed back to the company.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Some of that has to do with concerns around well, what does it cost to me what you know?
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Am I missing work in order to access these services, things like that.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, step one is getting the programs in place, but then there are a lot of additional steps to build it out, so that there's a culture there that people want to access what is open to them and that the employers are accepting of what comes back to them.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: You know it's one thing to say we understand mental illness or we prioritize mental health.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: It's another thing to walk the walk and really set up your organization in a way that honors that.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that we have a lot to work on together.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, between your core components of violence prevention and injury prevention, there's so much work where the brain comes into play.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Are there any other areas or programs that you have at Safe State that focus on brain trauma, and what are you trying to do with them there?
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: So we don't have any direct work with brain trauma right now, but, like I said, we're a membership organization and so our members are out there in all 50 states doing this work.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Your state health departments, your hospitals and your health care organizations, your community based groups, they're the ones who are tirelessly leading these efforts.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: They're working with the coaches, they're working on the return to play, the return to work situations, and they're the ones collecting the data too, and so, you know, I would just really elevate the work that they're doing and make sure that folks know to be supportive of that.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: You know, these are things again that keep us all safe, that are protecting our communities, and it's been a period of well, how do we want to categorize it?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Bumpy relationships with public health in the last few years.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's challenges.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: So if I could elevate one thing, is that the folks in your community on the public health side doing brain injury prevention work, they're on your side, they're here to keep us safe and we really want to support those efforts.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Okay?
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I absolutely, and I couldn't have said it better myself.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, you have an amazing organization, you know, with roots in all 50 states, and we definitely want to work tirelessly with you to help them understand that this is an issue and to help them collect more efficient data on top of what they're doing right now, so we can absolutely make this an issue and work together to go ahead.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, just think of all the money we can save the government, but, more importantly, think of all the human pain and suffering that we can prevent by working together on this.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: So, as we close out, sharon, let's talk about safe states.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: This is where I let people just rant and rave about what you're doing.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Tell us what you got going on.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I know you got your big summit coming up, and how do people find you and what can they reach out to you about?
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Because you truly are out there helping everybody in a lot more areas than just brain injury.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're out there, Bruce.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I mentioned.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Sorry, good chuckle there.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: You know I mentioned so many of the different topics that we cover and that still was only a selection.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: There is so much ground being covered right now.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: We are.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Right now.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Advocacy has been a huge focus area for us, just helping people to understand the value of this work, like we were just talking about what's happening in communities, how it's happening and how you're benefiting.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: The data collection piece, you know, that really tells us the not just that an incident occurred, but where it occurred, what were the circumstances and, most importantly, what can we do to prevent it from happening again.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: So you know, we are really driven by that mission to strengthen the practice of prevention.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: We want our members, we want our partners in the field to thrive through the support and connection that we offer.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: You know, whether you're an individual, who's a community member, whether you're an organization, we would love for you all to join our network.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Right now we have IVP professionals and we have community members, but really it's about all of us pairing together to enhance the impact of the work and to strive for that injury-free future for all of us.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Well, sharon, thank you so much and I tell to the I can acknowledge to the audience that we are a Safe States Alliance member.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: They're doing amazing work, not just in the area that we focus on.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: So if you do have some passions that you have, you want to know more, absolutely reach out to Sharon.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: If you're a nonprofit focused on really anything man, they've got a list of programs and issues for you.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: They're always looking for people to come in and give them a hand and expand the grassroots that they have on the ground and we look forward to working with them to expand awareness of the issue of repetitive trauma.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: So, sharon, thanks to you and SafeStates for coming on, really appreciate your time and we hope to see you again, and actually I'll see you digitally here in a couple of weeks on your at your summit.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Bruce, you know, just hats off to you and the foundation for the tremendous work that you do.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: And I'll say it again please do reach out.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Anyone that's hearing this that's interested.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: There's room in the tent for all of us and we want you to join.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Definitely big tent over there.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: So as we sign off, remember everybody please like, share, subscribe to this podcast or Denny is not going to buy me any more beer.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Denny's our magnificent producer out there.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: We want to say a heads up to him.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: 38 Challenge is one of our partners.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: If you've never done a 38 Challenge, in memory of my good friend Brant McCarthy, mccarthy's brother, who's escaping me right now I'm sorry Navy captain, who's no longer here, the 38 challenge will whoop your butt.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Do what I do One every week for him and my son.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I call it a 38 special.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Don't forget we have the summit coming up September 3rd and 4th.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: This will probably come out after that, but we will have the USOCOM commander speaking, frank Larkin, from 60 Minutes.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: We've got Dr Jim Kelly, dr Mark Gordon, we've got Dr Daniel Pearl speaking from the US military side, on Veterans Branks, we've got Lee Steinberg, the most successful sports agent in history, talking on this exact issue.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: At this summit we're going to be following that up with our Big Day for Mac, the day that Mac left, 24 September, big Mac for Mac Day.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: So get ready to go to your favorite McDonald's, get a Big Mac sandwich.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: My wife takes the meat out because she's a vegetarian alien kind of person that I love so much, and get ready to take those pictures for us.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: And don't forget our fundraiser at the Army-Navy Game for Veterans Mental Health.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: This year we have Fuel, the 1990s band.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: We're going to have the only concert at the Army-Navy Game in conjunction with Horse Soldier Bourbon, sponsored by Blue Fusion, an amazing data analytics company.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Hope to see you there.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: We got VIP tickets.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: We got the whole thing.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: 100% of all the money is owed goes to Veterans Mental Health.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Then, finally, don't forget your free book on our website, the only book for parents on the issue of subcustody trauma, as well as our app on the Google and Apple Store HeadSmart Go.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Get that.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: It's the only concussion app out there.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: It's free.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: That has repetitive impact information on it for your parents to protect your children.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: So, as we sign out, thank you for listening to another amazing podcast with Sharon Safe States and myself.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Bruce Parkman, we know that you're out there.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: A lot of you feel like you're alone.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Reach out to us, reach out to Safe States If you're suffering, if you know anybody that's hurting right now from playing a lot of contact sports and they could be in their 50s, 60s.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: They could be 17, like my son, or from repetitive last exposure from a very veteran populations.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: We have an entire network of specialists that we can turn people on to so they can get the help that they need.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: So signing off, remember you only got one melon, sharon said.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: You only got one brain.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: We are morally required to protect those brains and the futures that come with them.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: So take care of those melons.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: We'll talk to you soon.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Take care and, god bless, we'll see you next time.