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TV-Movie-Star Hayden Panettiere Cause of Death Revealed, Boyfriend Detained, Rpt · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, a third mom kills
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: her children, Clancy style, claiming she wanted them all to
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: go to God together. This as the Clancy juror holdout attacked.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us. Did she
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: just actually say, maybe I still believe she's guilty? What?
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: She did use these elastic bands around their literal necks
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: and she choked the life out of them, Nancy.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: The jurors are thinking a mother could not possibly, in
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: a hostile and malicious way, kill her children. But what
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: they're not talking about is her danger to the community.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: He took the exercise band out of the bag, grabbed
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: an empty water bottle, and tied the band around the
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: water bottle and pulled it. We're not in here to
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: play detective or... It's not a game of Clue. Like,
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: this is serious. It's disgusting.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: No, it's not a game of Clue. A juror speaking
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: out on ABC. It is a real-life case, sir, with
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: three dead children.
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: What?
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: The demonstration, the holdout Gerard performed in the jury deliberation room,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: was that too much for you?
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Eh.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Try to imagine that demonstration instead of a water bottle,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: it's Dawson or Cora or Callan. Just tonight, the lone
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: holdout Gerard under attack. This as another copycat mom kills Gerard.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Her children, Clancy style, and of course says, I was
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: having a psychotic break, just like her. When will it end?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Straight out to Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative reporter, contributor,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: LA Magazine, star of Pop Crime TV. Lauren, the most
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: recent Clancy style murders. The floodgates are open.
• 2:15
  Speaker 6: It's so tragic.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: The Jeanette McCausland case, And she also tragically strangled her
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: six and seven-year-old son and daughter, Kai and Ella.
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: And then she fled to her aunt's house in Vermont.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: But Nancy, what is so chilling about this is essentially
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: what you said. She said to her aunt and to police,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I wanted them to go to God or I wanted
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: us to go to God together, but it didn't work.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: And Lindsay Clancy, when she strangled her children, reportedly said,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: go to God, baby. McCausland also attempted to take her
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: own life by cutting her own throat.
• 2:58
  Speaker 6: And then she reportedly drove to a.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Let me understand something. Let me understand something. Lauren Conlon
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: joining us, investigative reporter. So now I've got Lindsay Clancy
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: who killed her children and tried to kill herself. I
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: assume you have seen that window scene. where there are
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: blood smudges, blood smudges where she was holding on to
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: make her fall lesser. So in that case, Lindsay Clancy
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: tries to kill herself, but she manages only to murder
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: her children. Then in the next case, we've got Corey Walsh,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: who tries to kill herself with what, a butter knife,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and is found in the bathtub like she's in a movie.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: But she does manage to murder her little boy, her
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: two-year-old son, Barrett. And now we've got Jeanette McCausland who murders.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: And I'm saying murder because she admits she killed her children.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: It's not open to maybe so-and-so did it. She admits
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: she did it. Isn't that right, Dave Mack, that says
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: she was in a Clancy-style psychotic break?
• 4:11
  Speaker 7: Yeah, she claims that she was having a total mental,
• 4:15
  Speaker 7: you know, washout when she committed this heinous crime against
• 4:19
  Speaker 7: her own children. And I'm with you, Nancy. When is
• 4:22
  Speaker 7: this going to end? I understand baby blues. I understand
• 4:27
  Speaker 7: what happens after a woman has a child. But come on, man,
• 4:30
  Speaker 7: we're killing children years after they're born. and claiming that
• 4:34
  Speaker 7: it has something to do with their birth.
• 4:35
  Speaker 8: Clearly, she was and is suffering. Let's not go back
• 4:40
  Speaker 8: and fall back on the same default position that when
• 4:43
  Speaker 8: a woman that is obviously mentally ill is involved or
• 4:47
  Speaker 8: associated with horrific tragedy like this, we automatically prosecute them
• 4:53
  Speaker 8: criminally to the fullest extent.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Of the law.
• 4:55
  Speaker 9: The defendant explained to her aunt that she had tried
• 4:57
  Speaker 9: to kill herself.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: Ms.
• 4:59
  Speaker 10: Madison asked the defendant where her husband was, and the
• 5:01
  Speaker 10: defendant stated that he was at the lake. When asked
• 5:04
  Speaker 10: where the children were, the defendant told her aunt that
• 5:06
  Speaker 10: she had killed them.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: From our friends at WCVB, so let me understand the
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: now third Clancy-style killing of children. She's talking about, what
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: did she say about the lake, going to the lake,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack?
• 5:22
  Speaker 7: That's where she said her husband was at the lake,
• 5:25
  Speaker 7: because they were trying to identify, well, where was he
• 5:27
  Speaker 7: when this was taking place, so He was not home,
• 5:30
  Speaker 7: not that dissimilar from all the other men in these
• 5:33
  Speaker 7: cases where they're away from home. The mother knows they're
• 5:37
  Speaker 7: away from home and how long they're going to be
• 5:38
  Speaker 7: away from home when this action takes place.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Tell me the facts surrounding McCausland. Jeanette McCausland has murdered
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: two of her children. Tell me the facts surrounding their murders,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack.
• 5:50
  Speaker 7: The children were both killed by strangulation.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 5:54
  Speaker 7: And After, and we're talking about a seven-year-old, Kai McCausland,
• 5:59
  Speaker 7: and a six-year-old, Ella McCausland, both were found dead inside
• 6:03
  Speaker 7: the family's home. The dramatic, horrible part of all of this, Nancy,
• 6:10
  Speaker 7: is again, seven years old and six years old, they
• 6:12
  Speaker 7: know what's going on. The children were both killed by strangulation.
• 6:16
  Speaker 7: After she kills them, McCausland then drives to her aunt's
• 6:20
  Speaker 7: home in Bennington, Vermont, which is, I think, three hours away.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So after killing two
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: of her children in the home, like Clancy, like Walsh,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: by asphyxiation, like Clancy, like Walsh, waiting until, planning until
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the husband was gone, like Clancy, like Walsh, this woman...
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Jeanette McCausland then gets in her vehicle and drives three hours.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: What happened to the suicide attempt?
• 6:55
  Speaker 7: Well, the suicide attempt happens when she tries to cut
• 6:58
  Speaker 7: her throat after telling her aunt that she has killed
• 7:02
  Speaker 7: her children.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Her throat looks fine to me. What happened?
• 7:05
  Speaker 7: She was covered in blood. When police showed up, Nancy,
• 7:08
  Speaker 7: McCausland was covered in blood. And again, we're talking three
• 7:12
  Speaker 7: hours of a drive to get to her aunt's house.
• 7:16
  Speaker 7: And tried to cut her own throat.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Lauren Conlon, is McCausland in
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: the hospital getting treatment right now? Is she in intensive care?
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Well, Nancy, I think that we're missing a really important
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: part here is also the fact that after McCausland attempted
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: to slit her own throat, she drove to a bridge.
• 7:35
  Speaker 6: And attempted to jump off it. I say attempted.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: She actually told police and she told her aunt, quote,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: she couldn't go through with it. That right there tells
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: me she is sound of mind. And not only that,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: she was going through a pretty contentious.
• 7:51
  Speaker 6: Divorce at the time.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: So there was a guardian ad litem involved to try
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: to work out custody arrangements. It was getting pretty messy.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: So at this point, and it's kind of confusing.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Lauren Collin, you just lost me. That's a
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: non sequitur. Fancy Latin talk for that does not follow.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: She's in a contentious divorce. 50% of America is in
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: a contentious divorce. The answer to being in a contentious
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: divorce is not killing your children. So what if she's
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: in a divorce? Don't care. I care about what happened
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to those children. So let me understand this fact scenario.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I think you and Dave Mack are both right. So
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: she kills the children, then decides to go on a
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: three-day hour drive to Bennington, Vermont on Friday night, driving
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: at night. That means negotiating the traffic, negotiating the twists
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and the turns. Then she shows up covered in blood
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: with a gash on her neck. She confesses to the
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: aunt she killed her children and tried really hard to
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: take her own life, but she didn't want to die.
• 9:06
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Okay. How did the children, they're dead, how were they killed?
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: I know asphyxiated. Do you know, Lauren Collin, were they
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: strangled with elastic exercise bands like in the Clancy case?
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Were they hung with a cord in the basement like
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Corey Walsh's case? What exactly happened to these two little children?
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Because all I'm hearing about is her and her problems.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing nothing about them.
• 9:36
  Speaker 9: I know.
• 9:37
  Speaker 6: And Nancy, it's heartbreaking.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: They were found in a bed covered by a sheet,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: strangled to death. Now, I do not know if she
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: used an apparatus. I believe that, unfortunately, it was with children.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: but I don't know that all of the details have
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: come out yet because, surprisingly, their official causes of death
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: have not been revealed by the medical examiner's office in
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Massachusetts just yet.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Her children are dead, and
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: we're hearing all about her. And I guess the next
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: step is the way that Kevin Reddington explained away all
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: of Lindsay Clancy's methodical decisions that she made when killing
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: her children and covering it up from her husband. I
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: guess we're going to hear that happen next. in McCausland's
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: case now as well, but listen to what her attorney
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: is saying.
• 10:47
  Speaker 8: Clearly, she was and is suffering. Let's not go back
• 10:52
  Speaker 8: and fall back on the same default position that when
• 10:55
  Speaker 8: a woman that is obviously mentally ill is involved or
• 10:59
  Speaker 8: associated with horrific tragedy like this, we automatically prosecute them
• 11:04
  Speaker 8: criminally to the fullest extent of the law.
• 11:07
  Speaker 9: The defendant explained to her aunt that she had tried
• 11:09
  Speaker 9: to kill herself.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: Ms.
• 11:10
  Speaker 10: Madison asked the defendant where her husband was, and the
• 11:13
  Speaker 10: defendant stated that he was at the lake. When asked
• 11:15
  Speaker 10: where the children were, the defendant told her aunt that
• 11:18
  Speaker 10: she had killed them.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: From our friends at WCVB and WBZ, straight out to Dr.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael.
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: Dr.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Chloe is not only a psychologist, she is the author
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: of Nervous Energy, and you can find her at freespeechtoday.com.
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Chloe, I'd like to hear your analysis.
• 11:37
  Speaker 11: Well, Nancy, this is a tragedy. And I just have
• 11:40
  Speaker 11: to say, I noticed that the lawyer had really minimizing
• 11:43
  Speaker 11: language there where he said when a mother is involved
• 11:46
  Speaker 11: or associated with a tragic event, when what actually happened,
• 11:50
  Speaker 11: of course, is that the mother committed filicide. What I
• 11:53
  Speaker 11: think we're seeing here is something psychologists call the blueprint effect,
• 11:57
  Speaker 11: which is where when a person sees how another criminal
• 12:02
  Speaker 11: does a crime and potentially gets away with it, They
• 12:05
  Speaker 11: literally start taking it as a blueprint. One other really
• 12:09
  Speaker 11: tragic effect I think we're seeing here is something called
• 12:12
  Speaker 11: the Werther effect, which is that when a crime is
• 12:17
  Speaker 11: romanticized and the criminal gets lots of sympathy and adulation,
• 12:22
  Speaker 11: maybe even lots and lots of GoFundMe dollars, other people
• 12:26
  Speaker 11: start saying, you know, maybe I could do that too.
• 12:29
  Speaker 11: And then instead of being held accountable, I would actually
• 12:32
  Speaker 11: get lots of adulation and admiration.
• 12:35
  Speaker 9: The defendant confirmed two officers that she had killed her children.
• 12:39
  Speaker 10: After confirming the defendant's residence, Bennington Police contacted the Wellesley
• 12:42
  Speaker 10: Police Department and asked that they conduct a welfare check
• 12:45
  Speaker 10: at that home. Wellesley Police responded to that location, Your Honor,
• 12:48
  Speaker 10: and upon entering to conduct a well-being check, found two
• 12:51
  Speaker 10: deceased children, seven-year-old Kai and six-year-old Ella McCausland.
• 12:54
  Speaker 12: Ms.
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: McCausland, this is Judge Corzones.
• 12:57
  Speaker 9: Can you hear me okay?
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: Yes, sir. Do you have the waiver form in front
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: of you? Yes, I do, sir.
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: You understand by signing the waiver, you are giving up
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: those rights and there'll be no further hearing and you'll
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: be transported back to the state of Massachusetts.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, sir.
• 13:23
  Speaker 6: I just signed where it says dependent.
• 13:26
  Speaker 9: That's correct.
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: That's what I did.
• 13:32
  Speaker 13: Okay.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, it seems like she's come out of
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: her psychotic interlude. The acupuncturist mother, Jeanette McCausland, accused of
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: killing her two little children at their Massachusetts home, then
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: takes off to Vermont to go to an aunt's home.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: You see her in court reading and speaking clearly. That
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: was her arraignment. To Marie Pereira joining us, veteran criminal
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: defense attorney, domestic violence expert and registered nurse, an arraignment, explain.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: It's when the state presents the charges against you on
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: paper and they outline what codes of the penal code
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: you violated and you get to plead guilty or not guilty.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: In most instances, you're afforded an attorney if you can't
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: afford one. But this is the beginning.
• 14:26
  Speaker 9: Of the case.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: These two children found asphyxiated, we are told, in their
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: mother's bed. Mom then says she tries to kill herself,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Clancy style, Corey Walsh style, gets in a car and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: drives three hours at night, leaving the dead bodies behind.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Then says she tried to kill herself and confessed, now
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: claiming she had a psychotic break. To Dr. Thomas Coyne
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: joining us out of Tallahassee. He is the medical examiner,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: District 8 medical examiner for the state of Florida. He's
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: also a toxicologist and a forensic pathologist and a neuropathologist.
• 15:09
  Speaker 11: Dr.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Coyne, thank you for joining us tonight. Explain to me
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: what these children went through, the two latest children to
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: die Clancy-style. as they were asphyxiated by mommy in mommy's bed.
• 15:23
  Speaker 12: From a medical perspective, when a person is asphyxiated or strangled,
• 15:27
  Speaker 12: when the brain senses that lack of oxygen or blood flow,
• 15:30
  Speaker 12: it immediately activates your fear center, the amygdala in your brain.
• 15:33
  Speaker 12: You get a sudden release of adrenaline and cortisol. You
• 15:36
  Speaker 12: feel panic, this impending doom. And so I can only
• 15:40
  Speaker 12: imagine what they were feeling at that moment in time. Plus,
• 15:43
  Speaker 12: the strangulation is a very intimate type of murder. You're
• 15:46
  Speaker 12: within arm's reach. And so they're looking directly at their mom.
• 15:50
  Speaker 12: They're with the person they trust the most in the world.
• 15:52
  Speaker 12: And then suddenly they have this horrible act performed upon them.
• 15:56
  Speaker 12: I can't even imagine what they experienced. And I'm assuming
• 15:59
  Speaker 12: it was painful as well, because to facilitate the act,
• 16:02
  Speaker 12: I'm assuming she was grabbing the neck very hard, squeezing
• 16:05
  Speaker 12: very hard. And so they had this pain and sudden
• 16:09
  Speaker 12: panic from lack of oxygen, and then, of course, realizing
• 16:13
  Speaker 12: their mom's the one performing this act. I can't even
• 16:16
  Speaker 12: imagine what they went through.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Marie Pereira joining us, veteran trial attorney. Marie, I know
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: this latest Clancy-style killing of children occurred during a divorce,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: as Lauren Conlon pointed out. Have you ever seen cases,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I have, where the mother kills the children as a
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: get-back to the father?
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: I have not handled cases like that, but I call
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: it spousal revenge.
• 16:42
  Speaker 9: Absolutely.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: She was in a contentious divorce with her husband, and
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: that was probably her way of getting back at him
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: by taking those children that he loves so much.
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: I'm not buying all of this psychosis business she's saying.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: And I slightly disagree with you, Nancy, when you put
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: your fingers up and say Clancy-style... The only thing that's
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: similar is the manner of death robbing those children of oxygen.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: But none of those women have documented proof of prior
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: outcries of depression, saying they heard voices in their head saying,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: kill your children. They were not on dozens of medications
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: and misdiagnosed by healthcare professionals. To my knowledge, nobody checked
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: themselves into a lockdown facility. So you with this clancy style,
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Nancy. I love you, but really, that part,
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: I don't think it was Clancy's style when you see
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: that they had no prior history of documented mental health illness.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Marie, let's do what I fondly call a lightning round,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: where you are limited to yes-no answers. Agree, disagree. Number one,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: aren't both mothers, all three mothers, white females?
• 17:59
  Speaker 12: Yes, agree.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: That's a yes-no.
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Didn't all the children die in the home?
• 18:05
  Speaker 12: Agree.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Didn't all of these children die at the hands of
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: their natural born bio mom? Isn't that true?
• 18:14
  Speaker 12: Agree.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that in all three cases, the mother
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: waited until the husband was gone to affect the killings?
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: Agree with everyone except Jeanette.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not through because you say these cases are not
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Clancy style. And they are copycats. Isn't it true that
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: in all three cases, each woman claimed she tried to
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: commit suicide?
• 18:38
  Speaker 12: Agree.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: And isn't it true that none of the women ended
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: up dead, but their children did?
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: Agree, but no one had prior history of outcries documented.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: We heard that. We are going through the similarities that
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: make this a Clancy-style killing and a copycat. Isn't it
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: true that all of these children, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: all were asphyxiated? Isn't that true? Correct. And isn't it
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: true that all of these children were under eight years old?
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Every single one. Isn't that true? Correct. Okay. Straight out
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: to Dr. Chloe Carmichael. That would be enough right there.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: And I've got so many more. Killed in the home,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: in a secluded area of the home, to which the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: mom had sole control, that the acts were planned. They
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: were methodically carried out. I mean, I've got pages and
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: pages of similarities. This is what we call a copycat
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: or a fingerprint crime. Explain.
• 19:37
  Speaker 11: Yes, Nancy. It's also what psychologists would call a social
• 19:40
  Speaker 11: contagion effect, which is where people get an idea. I mean,
• 19:45
  Speaker 11: for a lot of times it would be something like
• 19:47
  Speaker 11: anorexia or cutting or or other various things where it
• 19:52
  Speaker 11: just kind of seems to go around all of a sudden.
• 19:55
  Speaker 11: I mentioned the Werther effect earlier, which is where there
• 19:59
  Speaker 11: was a killing, a suicide that happened in a murder
• 20:03
  Speaker 11: by a protagonist named Werther. And all of a sudden
• 20:07
  Speaker 11: it started going around so much where young men were
• 20:09
  Speaker 11: doing the same thing as Werther did that Denmark and
• 20:14
  Speaker 11: Italy actually had to ban the book. This was in
• 20:16
  Speaker 11: the 1700s. This has been going on since the beginning
• 20:19
  Speaker 11: of time. When people see something, they get an idea.
• 20:23
  Speaker 11: And if it works out in any way okay for
• 20:27
  Speaker 11: the person who did it, such as Lindsay Clancy potentially
• 20:30
  Speaker 11: just getting off and her getting over a million dollars
• 20:33
  Speaker 11: and the GoFundMe and all these things, people start thinking,
• 20:36
  Speaker 11: you know, maybe I might consider that too. So it
• 20:39
  Speaker 11: becomes a social contagion.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: And then you see where Clancy is basically rewarded by
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: over a million dollars being raised for her and her parents.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: And to top it all off, Jeanette McCausland's lawyer, Joseph Krowski,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: tried to get her case dismissed and her to walk free. Yes,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: he stunningly requested that his client be freed and the
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: case dismissed. And this is even though McCausland admits that
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: she killed her two children, seven-year-old Ty and six-year-old Ella,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: wanted to walk free. That's not all that is happening
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Clancy. But just as a side
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: note to Dave Mack or Lauren Connell, let's start with you, Lauren.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: How much money has been raised for Clancy? Lindsay Clancy
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: and or her parents?
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Well, as you said, Nancy, it's over a million dollars
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: at this point. And I believe the woman who started
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: the fundraiser, she came out and spoke recently that she
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: had no connection to the family whatsoever. She started this
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: just to raise money to help pay for legal funds,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: and it just seemingly took off.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: The bitter legal battle that had engulfed Jeanette McCausland may
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: have been a source of of worry, but that does
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: not an insanity case make. That said, back to Clancy,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: the holdout juror now being named, we're not naming him
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: here on Crime Stories, named and attacked. To Lauren Collin,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: what is happening with the holdout?
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: Oh my goodness, Nancy.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: This started when a few of the female jurors began
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: speaking out. They referred to the lone holdout juror as arrogant,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: as seemingly not taking the deliberation seriously. And then the juror, Nick,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: had talked about this lone juror scrolling on his phone,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: just really painting a picture of of a careless man here.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: And this is coming after it was stated by the
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: foreperson that he wasn't following the reasonable doubt.
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: Charge, et cetera.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Well, by Friday, one of those female jurors, Paula, gave
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: an interview with Gayle King of CBS, where Gayle King
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: directly asked her, after she described the makeup of the
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: jury having one person of color, Gayle King directly asked
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: her and said, was the holdout or lone juror the
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: person of color? To which Paula answered yes. The internet
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: seemed to just explode over this. And then later in
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: the evening on September 11th, NBC 10, who did the
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: original interviews with these three female jurors, they released an
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: investigative piece about the loan holdout juror, about how he
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: had a domestic violence charge in the past. He had
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: some unpaid, or he didn't pay his rent and was
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: squatting for six months. I mean, look, he was not
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: convicted of a crime. The charges were dropped. I don't
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: think anyone is defending- Whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait. See, all that that you just said,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: all of the charges- I mean, I want everybody to
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: just take two seconds and think of the worst thing
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: you've ever done. And then to have it reported on
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: national TV, and at the end of the litany, the
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: reporter says, they were all dropped. It's kind of a footnote, right?
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: But the way they described this guy, and one juror said,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: He just couldn't get over the fact that Lindsay Clancy
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: brutally murdered her children. Gee, I wonder why. Let's take
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: a look at what Lauren Conlon was just describing.
• 24:36
  Speaker 14: 70-ish to 22. And one person of color and then
• 24:44
  Speaker 14: everybody else was white. A lot of the jurors had children.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: A black man is a holdout juror? Yes.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I think, Nancy, it's important to understand the juror was
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: not convicted of any crimes.
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: And when NBC 10.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Published this report on Friday night, September 11th, apparently online
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: sleuths had no problem getting the case number and even
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: this juror's name from this allegedly blurred documents on the screen,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: these case documents. And unfortunately, his name was released. And
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I am just sick over it. This man did not
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: ask for any attention. He did not ask to be
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: in the spotlight. And yet here we are knowing his past.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: And again, I'm not defending his past. I'm just questioning
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: why I know about it.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: You had 11 jurors that didn't necessarily believe your case.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: What do you say to those people who felt that
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: the whole prosecution was insensitive?
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Was what? Insensitive.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: Insensitive?
• 25:50
  Speaker 13: Insensitive. Insensitive is killing three children. Insensitive is ignoring those facts.
• 25:57
  Speaker 13: We have an obligation to stand up for those people
• 26:00
  Speaker 13: and seek justice and make sure the defendant gets justice
• 26:02
  Speaker 13: and make sure they get justice. So if people can't
• 26:05
  Speaker 13: understand that, I don't know how I can answer that question.
• 26:08
  Speaker 13: I appreciate the fact that there are strong feelings and
• 26:11
  Speaker 13: opinions tied to this case. However, our job is to
• 26:16
  Speaker 13: set aside our feelings and focus solely on the facts.
• 26:20
  Speaker 13: The facts are Lindsay Clancy killed her three children, and
• 26:24
  Speaker 13: the evidence suggested to us that she was in control
• 26:26
  Speaker 13: of her actions when she committed those homicides.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: The prosecutor speaking out, that's WBZ and East Idaho News.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So much happening in the case,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: and tonight the one holdout juror being persecuted. And one
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: thing I couldn't help but notice, Dave Mack, is how
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: the jury vote changed. That jurors, one by one, gave
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: up their convictions and went with the crowd until one
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: juror held out. What is happening with the holdout? His
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: name is out there. His picture is out there. What
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: will happen next?
• 27:14
  Speaker 7: That's actually what is being discussed, Nancy. And I'm, I'm
• 27:18
  Speaker 7: glad you brought it up because what can be done
• 27:21
  Speaker 7: in our judicial system where you're, you're sitting on a jury,
• 27:24
  Speaker 7: you're not getting paid to be there really. And you're
• 27:26
  Speaker 7: brought in to judge somebody based on what you've heard. Now,
• 27:30
  Speaker 7: if you don't go along with the crowd, all of
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: a sudden you're going to be outed for all the
• 27:35
  Speaker 7: world to see and pick on you.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Um, There's got to be some retribution.
• 27:39
  Speaker 7: There has to be some type of action that this
• 27:42
  Speaker 7: juror can take against those because you know what you mentioned,
• 27:46
  Speaker 7: they slowly gave in. Well, we know that there was
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: some intimidation going on in that jury room. There were
• 27:51
  Speaker 7: big personalities is what we were told. And those big
• 27:54
  Speaker 7: personalities kept wearing down until they finally got their way.
• 27:59
  Speaker 7: One man, one person had the intestinal fortitude of character
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: to stand up and say, I'm not going your way.
• 28:09
  Speaker 7: And now he's getting doxxed for that.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Come on. How did his name leak originally? Or do
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: we know, Lauren Conlon? I've heard several different accounts of
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: how that happened.
• 28:20
  Speaker 14: Yes.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: NBC 10, they blurred his name on the documents that
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: they showed during their television program, but it wasn't quite
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: blurred enough along with the case number. So online sleuths
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: were able to go online, go onto the docket and
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: look up the case number and then confirm his name.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: That is my understanding. And now several people I know
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: had his name. They chose not to release it, of course.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And then some people felt otherwise and they chose to
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: put it out there.
• 28:54
  Speaker 6: And again, no one's defending what this man did.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: No one really or truly knows if he lied on
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: his jury form, which is also being alleged. No one
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: knows that except for the lawyers and the judge.
• 29:07
  Speaker 6: And again, I just do.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Not agree with this man's name being doxxed and him
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: being attacked just because he did not vote the same way. Again,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I wasn't in the deliberation room, Nancy. But from what
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I observed, this juror, I had a perfect view of
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: him during the two weeks I was inside the courtroom.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: He would nod at the defense experts. He appeared very engaged.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: He laughed at a lot of Reddington snark. Clearly, I
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: had it wrong. I thought he was on the side
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of the defense. But just because you enjoy a defense
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: attorney's commentary doesn't mean that you agree with the case.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: So my experience with this juror was a little bit different. However,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I acknowledge I wasn't in the deliberation room.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Marie Pereira joining us, criminal defense attorney. Marie, isn't it
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: a crime?
• 30:00
  Speaker 6: Absolutely.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: And I commend him for sticking to what his values are.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: This is what the system is all about. He doesn't
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: have to go along with what everybody else says. Now,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: I still believe that she was not responsible criminally because
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: she was suffering from mental defects. But it doesn't stop
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: me from respecting his opinion that she was aware of
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: everything she was doing and she needed to be punished.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: The fact that they leaked his private information and he
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: wasn't even convicted of a crime, to my understanding, it
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: was just a complaint involving domestic violence, which was dismissed.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: If something like that is dismissed, I would think that
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: his attorneys would say, seal it, dismissed and sealed. So
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know what they're trying to say, that because
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: he had a domestic violence case, somehow.
• 30:50
  Speaker 9: He had something against women.
• 30:53
  Speaker 6: What's next?
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: It's wrong what they did. The man had the right
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: to stick to his guns. Just because he didn't agree
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: with them doesn't mean he didn't understand reasonable doubt.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: He believed, and that's his right.
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: That's why we have jurors.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Lauren Conlon was describing how the name of the holdout
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: juror was released, but I think it goes back to
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: defense attorney Kevin Reddington.
• 31:20
  Speaker 15: I know that they were robbed by one man for
• 31:24
  Speaker 15: whatever his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of the
• 31:30
  Speaker 15: life of these other jurors that were so attentive, so beautiful,
• 31:35
  Speaker 15: so wonderful. And listen to this evidence. And you can
• 31:40
  Speaker 15: see how defeated they were sitting there. And I got
• 31:43
  Speaker 15: a funny feeling that they would have gone on for
• 31:45
  Speaker 15: another week if.
• 31:46
  Speaker 7: They had to.
• 31:47
  Speaker 14: Was it a mistake to actually reveal the gender of
• 31:49
  Speaker 14: the juror?
• 31:51
  Speaker 15: I know during the course of the SJC argument, I
• 31:53
  Speaker 15: believe that the gender of the individual was revealed, and
• 31:56
  Speaker 15: then it just followed through after that.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: From WBZ, East Idaho News, and ABC News, Reddington putting
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: a bullseye on the jurors' back with that going public,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: with the Lindsay Clancy family getting over a million dollars
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: raised for them. with her becoming a media darling after
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: killing her three children? Is anybody surprised that there are
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: copycat killers out there? Now we know one of the
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: many reasons people do not want to be on juries.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: If this is the implication, and there's another issue, Lauren Conlon,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Everyone is leaping to the conclusion that this juror lied. Well,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I recall distinctly on my very first bank robbery case,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I unwittingly put a convicted bank robber on my jury.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: And you know why? Because I didn't ask the right question.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: It wasn't his fault. Oh, by the way, he voted
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: to convict. But that said, I was a new prosecutor.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: And I didn't want to make potential jurors feel uncomfortable.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: So I didn't say, hey, do any of you have convictions?
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Does anybody in your family have a conviction? Does anybody
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: you know have a conviction? I wasn't, I didn't want
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: to upset them or embarrass them. So I ended up
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: getting a convicted bank robber on a bank robbery prosecution.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: So I don't know if they asked the juror the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: right question. Did they say, have any of you ever
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: been accused in a domestic violence case, not convicted, accused.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Have you been a party to one? Have you been
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: in a civil complaint that alleged one? I don't know
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that he was asked the right question before I jump
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: on any bandwagon that he lied. I don't know if
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: he was even asked the right question.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Well, there is a form that you fill out that
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: has all of these questions that, that should reflect what
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: you said.
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: However, Just because he has.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Been charged or accused, that doesn't necessarily bar him from
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: serving as a juror. I did go through some of
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: the Massachusetts laws. And again, if you have been convicted
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: of a crime, it does not mean that you cannot serve.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: It's clearly up to the discretion of the prosecution, the defense,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: and the judge here. So these are very seasoned attorneys.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: And I was a big fan of Judge Sullivan. I
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: have to think that... They knew about this if they
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: chose him as a juror, but I guess we'll wait
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: and see.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting.
• 34:43
  Speaker 10: Dr.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Thomas Coyne is with us. He is a renowned medical examiner.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Even commenting on the case, even having an opinion on
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the case can get you a lot of hate.
• 34:57
  Speaker 15: So, Dr.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Thomas Coyne, you are giving us the facts about what
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: happens during an asphyxiation case. But even going right down
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the middle of the road, you do know that that
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: can get you a lot of hate, right? A lot
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: of detractors. Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 35:17
  Speaker 12: And that's why I think, you know, many times in
• 35:20
  Speaker 12: these cases, medical examiners, they don't rush the judgment. They
• 35:23
  Speaker 12: don't immediately release their diagnoses. They talk intimately to family,
• 35:27
  Speaker 12: to the law enforcement, and they're very much aware of
• 35:30
  Speaker 12: what is placed out there in the press. I mean,
• 35:32
  Speaker 12: we're trying our best to be objective. just be physicians
• 35:35
  Speaker 12: and make our diagnoses based upon the evidence. But still,
• 35:39
  Speaker 12: the fire is placed back upon us. It's a very
• 35:43
  Speaker 12: uncomfortable position to be in sometimes.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Now, another case has reared its ugly head. Two more
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: children dead at the hands of their mother, now claiming
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Clancy-style psychotic break. If you know anything about about the
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Clancy case because it is headed to retrial, please dial 781-934-5656.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Or if you know anything about the Corey Walsh case,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: please dial 815-469-9434. Or if you know anything about the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: brand new Clancy-style murder, and that would be Jeanette McCausland,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: please dial Wellesley PD 781-235-1212. It seemingly never ended. And
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: that's what we mean by the floodgates are open. Tonight,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: we remember an American hero, Sergeant Patrick O'Rourke, West Bloomfield PD, Michigan,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: just 39 years shot and killed in the line of
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: duty after 12 years, leaving behind his wife, Amy, and
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: their children, Eileen, Mary, Andrea, and Stephen, American hero Sergeant
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Patrick O'Rourke. And let it not escape our attention that
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: all of these women are innocent until proven guilty in
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: a court of law. each of them raising insanity as
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: their defense. In most jurisdictions, that is what we call
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: an affirmative defense. In other words, they say, I did it,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: but I was insane. And it is their duty to
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: show they did not know right from wrong at the
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: time of the incident. In Massachusetts, however, that burden is reversed.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: The state must prove not only Is the defendant guilty?
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: But the state must prove they were sane at the
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: time of the incident. I want to thank all of
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: our guests for being with us tonight, but especially to
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: you for joining. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night.