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The Best Personality Assessment for Leadership Development (And When to Use Each One) · Leading in Change

• Kellie Bourque: Change used to feel like a one-time event. Something you managed and led through, then came out the other side. But we are not living in that world anymore, and change is constant now. That means the job isn't leading through it, it's learning to lead in it. So how do you actually do that? That's what this show is all about. I'm Adrian, a partner and consultant at Success Labs, and this is the Leading in Change podcast. And every episode we dig into the real questions leaders are wrestling with right now. Everything from delegating effectively when the target keeps moving to managing your career in the age of AI. Topics are coming directly from our clients, listeners, and leaders just like you. If you want to lead your people well and manage effectively in the chaos, you're in the right place. Let's get to it. Hey there, I'm Melissa. And I'm Adrian, and this is the Leading in Change podcast. And today we are talking about personality assessments, all things personality assessments. So by the end of this episode, you're going to have a clear understanding of the different types of personality assessments, a framework for understanding what is the right tool for the right situation. And we're even going to link out a cheat sheet in our show notes. So stay tuned and thanks for joining us. All right, let's jump in. I've been looking forward to this episode for a long time because you are my very own personal built in work friend, but also my assessment friend. You know all the things about all the different assessments. Yeah. And so I want to pick your brain and also maybe share some things that I've picked up along the way about personality assessments. Sounds great. Before we do that though, we have an icebreaker. Let's do it. Okay. So here is your icebreaker question, Adrian. You are stuck in an elevator for three hours with a stranger. Hell. Yeah, it doesn't sound great so far. Okay, but here's the question. Are you the person that starts up a conversation? Are you a person that's like, Mm, I'm gonna put my headphones in and listen to whatever's on my phone? Mm-hmm. If you had to choose one or the other for three hours, I would be MacGyvering away out of the elevator. I would be the person who is ripping the wires out and trying to phone nine one one. I would go into action mode. Now, if this is like ⁓ just I'm in the elevator and it's long ride, I'm Awkwardly looking around. Like I never start the conversation in the elevator. Okay. So like if you were in an Uber and it was a 20-minute drive across town. Dead silence every time I'm in an Uber and I love it. Okay. I love it. I don't know if I start the conversation, but somehow the conversation always starts. I think I have like one of those faces or I don't know, personalities where people just talk to me. Yeah. And they sometimes open up. I get I get to know people's deepest, darkest secrets and then never talk to them again. So you have an open vibe. I guess. Yeah, I think you do. And I I feel like I have a she does not want anybody to talk to her about Well, this is interesting to think about because it was a silly question, but also it starts to unfold why we do the things we do, what our preferences are, what's like in our makeup, what's the things that we've experienced those formative experiences that have made us the way we are. And I think that personality assessments can pull that out of us. That's right. That's what I want to talk about. That's right. One of my favorite things that I learned going through my Clifton Strengths coaching certification is they say that all those little things like natural ability to strike up conversation in an elevator or in the grocery store line or whatever, or a giftedness at recognizing numbers and patterns, all of those are what they call clues to talent. And it's your talents that you then develop into strengths. And that's why that's like one of my favorite assessments. I'm excited to dig into it. Well, we will talk about that and more. ⁓ yeah, so let's start off with why what are we talking about and why are we talking about it? What what are personal personality assessments and why are why is it important for us to talk about them? Yeah, so I mean, I think personality assessments are a big blanket category and there's a bunch of different types and there's varying degrees of efficacy and and research behind each of them. So we're gonna kind of dig into that as we talk about each different kind. What I will say is I think they fall into like roughly four. Categories. And so I'm going to run through those four categories really quickly. Number one are what we call insight tools. So tools that help you understand your motivations and how someone operates, right? then you look at things that are ⁓ performance tools. So those are and selection tools, like performance and selection. So ⁓ how is somebody performing? Are they the right fit for the job? You know, how do we measure and monitor if someone really has kind of the innate drive, will, talent for the work? and then the final one is productivity tools. And so tools that help you understand how to get work done better together, more effectively, more efficiently. So that's a whole category of tools. Yeah. Well, so I want to ask you this kind of at the start of this, because there might be some people listening to this that Say, well, we've already decided which one we want to do because that's the one we've always done. Or they might say, ⁓ that's just like a horoscope and it's a bunch of crap. Like that they don't mean anything. So what would you say to somebody that ⁓ that might be a little apprehensive about using a personality assessment? I think the first thing I would say is I get it because a lot I've seen so many organizations get this really wrong. Like we're gonna talk about Enneagram in a minute. And I'm like, Enneagram really does not have a place in the workplace, in my humble opinion. Like I think that that is just it and we'll talk about why. But I think there's the right tool for the right job, and none of it should be used to decide if someone is kept on the team or fired. Right. Like a personality assessment should never make those kind of like critical decision, life impacting decisions. It's really supposed to be tools for insight and understanding across the board. And so, you know, that's of usually the first thing I say is number one, I get it because a lot of organizations get it wrong. Number two, there is it's it's hard because there is research that says, for example, MBTI has no no validity in it. Most all of that research that I've seen only looks at the level one, which is kind of like the pop psi version of it. It's like Instagram version of MBTI, whereas the actual assessment has layers and layers of depth that the research does not go into. I mean, this is the same way I feel about astrology, but that's a whole other conversation. ⁓ but y y you know, when you you're looking at all of these tools and like what's really the efficacy behind them, this is why I lean on Clifton's strengths because it is backed by decades and decades of validated research by Gallup, who is a highly, you know, ⁓ reputable and credit credible. ⁓ polling firm. And so, you know, that's where closing strings comes from is this decades of workplace research. So that's oftentimes why I start there because I don't even want to have to have that conversation. Right. But what I would say is if you dig into the research, a lot of it's pretty ⁓ surface findings. Okay. So if you were working with a client that said, we want to do a personality assessment and they don't really know what they want to do. How would you answer that question? How would you set them up for success? What questions would you ask? I mean, I'm I'm gonna flip it around. What would you ask them first? I would ask them, well, what's the point of it? Is are we doing a team building exercise where you're trying to understand ⁓ how each other like thinks, behaves, and a communication preferences? Are you asking for an individual in coaching, trying to understand what their strengths are so they could build on those strengths? I would ask, ⁓ you know, what are you gonna do with it? Are you actually gonna use it or is this just like a one and done fun thing to do as a team? Because they are fun and they do help you, but ⁓ they're only as good as the amount of practice you use and or the amount of time that you actually take that thing off the shelf or out of your binder that you went to this retreat and actually use it. Yeah. ⁓ so that those are the questions I would ask. What have are there other ones that you would ask? I I usually say like, what's the goal of this? Like what are you trying to achieve? And You know, is this about, you know, ⁓ so I'll hear I'll I'll hear them start talking about it. And somebody might say, Well, you know, I've I've inherited this team and I've got a lot of new people on my team. And there's just we really need to work on our team cohesion. People are not getting along or they're not working across, or it's very siloed. And that's when I'm like, Clifton Strengths is the tool for you. It is the best tool I've used for team cohesion and team understanding. If somebody comes in and says this is a sales team or this is a fundraising team, and ⁓ you know, I just want to do a quick training to help them understand different types for communication. That's when I say disk all the way, because it's a great tool for surface quick ⁓ observation to diagnose someone's personality type, right? And then you can immediately apply it to communication preferences, which is really helpful for sales fundraising, whatever else. if somebody's coming to me and it's like it's a performance issue or it's they know somebody has talent but they've they're kind of capped or ceilinged. That's a lot of times where organizations use the Hogan because it's really good at building self awareness, helping you understand ⁓ what are your stressors, what are your limiters, you know, where are you relying on some negative behaviors or over applying some positive behaviors? So it's a great tool for executive coaching, self awareness. and then if somebody is like we keep getting kind of bogged down and not able to move work forward, you know, or we're trying to figure out how do we work better together. And it's not really about cohesion. It's about like the work is feeling really sticky for some reason or we feel stuck. That's where I think working genius is so good because it's like ⁓ finding where people find energy and joy in the type of work they do, like in the ideation phase or in the ⁓ discernment phase or in the, you know, figuring out what's the problem that needs to solve and how solve it or in the execution phase or in the r galvanizing, like getting everybody on board, right? So ⁓ there's all these kind of different stages of getting work done that that assessment can point to. So I dig through all those questions and then find the right tool that's gonna meet the need. Before we dig into each of the assessments, can I ask you another quick question about that? Because I hear a scenario where you might be able to ⁓ advise that the group Do more than one. Can you stack these? Are they stackable? Is that a good approach? I'm all about stacking them, baby. Yes, absolutely. I don't you know, I don't think anybody's ever asked me that. I see no harm in taking multiple assessments because I think, you know, ⁓ there I I think it's Gandhi that has this quote to change the world, change yourself. Maybe it's once in Churchill. It's someone, it's a great leader to change the world, to change yourself. You know, and I think that, you know, and there's another ⁓ saying that's like, ⁓ you know, to know God, you must know thyself. And and so like I think spiritual fulfillment, I think that ⁓ positive change, all of that comes through self-awareness. And all of these tools, what they really do is bring self-awareness and then empathy of others and understanding how others operate and work. Okay. So I'm curious, what does a genuinely good debrief of an assessment look like with a team? And where have you seen it done really well? Yeah, so that's a great question. I I would say first it's ⁓ you know, asking all those questions that you mentioned first to understand what the goal is. And then when in that debrief, my thing is ⁓ twofold. How can I teach them what this means so they can understand it and it resonates with them? And then how can I teach them how to use it? Like, what are they gonna do with it from now on? And so there's some important caveats. Like we gave the caveat of like ⁓ it there's more validity with some and less validity with others. The other caveat that I will give is Make no major decisions based on a personality assessment. Do not hire or fire someone because you've got this one personality set of letters missing off of your team. That's not a good use of this. That's that's made that's relying too much on a tool. But the tool can help you understand yourself better. It can help you understand what your motivations are and how you can use those at your communication style. I also think it's really important. I love Myers Briggs because it does give you a shared language. Many of them do, but especially MBTI for me. ⁓ it gives them a shared language of how do we work together after this. So what I often do is again, I teach them how to use this. I make them feel a little bit com more comfortable with whatever they've been given and say it's, it's not, it's not a this or that. It's a spectrum. And you are somewhere on that spectrum. So just making it sure it resonates with them. And then with that application of it, I often will have teams, especially if it's teams, Create a contract, a social contract. How are we going to use this? How much grace are we going to give each other because we realize we have different communication styles? How often are we going to get back together to talk about this? And have a contract. Literally, like we type it out in the moment and then have them all sign it. Yeah. That's And then I sometimes will even just send an email every six months and be like, Hey, you still using it? ⁓ because I think it's out of sight, out of mind, and you've got to use these things. It's practice. Yeah. You've got to keep using it. You know, I don't I don't practice yoga, ⁓ but I know you practice yoga and meditation. It's a practice. It's not a sport, it's not a competition. There is no finish line. You gotta keep using it. Practice. Yeah. So okay. You said several things that ping pong my brain. Yeah. We're gonna have to hit all of them because I think they're all gonna be valuable for the conversation. ⁓ number one, I'm gonna work backwards. You said people have gotta keep. Using it, and that is exactly right. Like, this is not something that's supposed to sit on the shelf. So, we talk about leading in change and why is this important for leading in change and being able to understand yourself how you're changing and growing and responding to a dynamic world, that personality assessments are so valuable for that, and so. Again, I'm gonna do another plug for Clifton Strinks. They have so many tools and resources for how you can keep this showing up with your team year over year. That's number one. Number two, you talked about how you know how you get people to use these. I've never heard of a contract. I think that's really cool and I love that. I'm I'm gonna, I'm like, I need to do that. That's a really interesting idea. But it sounded so much like the framework that ⁓ I learned in learning clift and strings called name, claim, and aim. So when you're ⁓ helping somebody understand their Clifton Strengths assessment name means they understand what all of their unique strengths mean. They can name them. Claim means they know how they show up in their day-to-day behavior. So they can identify, ⁓ when I do this, this is my strength in ideation at work, or this is my strength and input at work. And then aim is you can productively apply it day over day. And so again, one of the things I think is cool about Clifton Strengths and other assessments who do this, depending on where you get them done, will email you. ⁓ tips and tricks and ideas for how to apply your specific strengths to develop it and make you stronger and better at it. Jill up. Okay, but I have a question. ⁓ third thing is a question. Okay. So you said never make hiring and firing decisions based off of these. I remember I was applying for a job one time. It was an executive level position. And so it was really important role to the company. They wanted to get it right. They had me take working genius before I interviewed and I got, I was in ⁓ what wonder and invention. So I was on this not surprised. Yeah, I was on this end of the spectrum. You're gonna talk more about this here in a minute. This was a role that really required galvanizing and execution. And so in the interview, they came in and talked to me and said, Look, these are your results, but we really think this is a galvanizing and an executing role and or driving role. And, you know, talk to us about some examples of times. So I I what part of me was like annoyed. Part of me was like, I mean, dodged a bullet on that one because I didn't end up going after the world. But like, what are your thoughts on that application of it? So I'm okay with that application of it because it's it's a tool that you're using to further the conversation, to further get to know someone and make sure that expectations are aligned. When I say don't make hiring and firing decisions, I've had people before where I actually create a chart using MBTI and say, Here are all of the humans on your team and where they fall on this little 16 point grid. Yeah. And somebody once said, Well, we don't have an ESTJ, which that's highly unlikely. ⁓ we don't have an ESTJ. We need the next person we hire needs to be an ESTJ. And I'm like, that is not the the best use of this. Like that is the worst use of this. ⁓ so that's what I mean. Like, don't literally go and say we need to find this pro person. I think experience still matters, but also I love the fact that you're that potential employer, not potential employer, had that conversation with you. Yeah. how many times do we get in roles where we go, Whoa, this is not what you advertise. This is not what you sold me. I don't really want to do this stuff. And then you suffer for six months to a year, year and a half. And before you go, ⁓ I need to go to get something different. I'd rather have those kinds of conversations. So that's two different conversations. I'm okay with the version you shared. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Thanks. so you want to talk about the different types of tools? Yeah. Dig into that. Yes. Does that sound good? Yeah. Right. Right. Let's start with what might be the two most used between the two of us. Okay. Other than Clipton strengths. ⁓ but the two that we talk about the most, I guess. ⁓ let's start with Enneagram and MBTI. Which one do you want to jump in with first? ⁓ we can jump in with Enneagram. Let's do MBTI. Okay. so I think about Enneagram and MBTI as tools for understanding insight and motivation. Yep. And demotivation is the flip side of that. Sure. Right. And the reason I think that is because they're really about understanding how people are wired. ⁓ our good friend Julie says that, ⁓ MBTI is like your hardware and Enneagram is like your software. Ooh. I know. And so what that means to her is MBTI is like how you're hardwired. But then your software is like how you respond to that hardwiring, if that makes sense. Yeah. and so I I've kind of taken that to heart. But oftentimes I think those two go together. Yeah. So for somebody that's never heard of Enneagram, how would you describe it? So This is why I said earlier that Enneagram, I don't think, belongs in the workplace. This is a tool I've learned about in therapy. It has a long context and history within the Catholic and Episcopal churches. It has a long history within trauma-informed therapy. And it is really about, so it says that there are nine types of people. And ⁓ you know, I'm gonna correct some things that are like. This is very popular on the interwebs, right? So on Instagram, there's tons of accounts that actually don't know what they're talking about and it kind of drives me crazy. ⁓ no. And they really what's the word I'm looking for? Mischaracterize or generalize in unhelpful ways. So I'm gonna try to kind of it even though we don't have a ton of time to get into this. Right. Can I try it? Can I interrupt though? Because this is one thing that I add to any personality assessment workshop that I'm doing. There's a difference between a stereotype and a generalization. Stereotype is fixed. They are this way. This the period end of story. Generalization is this is what I know about this person until I receive further data. And so I think you're what you're talking about is that too many people make stereotypes about the types, and not enough people make generalizations. I love that distinction. It's gotta be open for more because humans are way more complex than four sets of letters. That's exactly right. I love that. Okay. So and I'll talk about some of the generalizations around thank you. Enneagram. So we could have a whole episode digging into Enneagram. I think I'm not actually the best person to do it. There is a two-part series with Susan Stabile, who's one of the kind of eminent thinkers on Enneagram, who's written some fantastic books. The Road Back to You is a book that I read when I was going through my Enneagram certification. ⁓ she's on a podcast called We Can Do Hard Things. That's probably my favorite podcast, two-part episode for understanding Enneagram, if you're interested in digging in. But at a high level, it's nine behavioral types and they're identified by core fears, which is why I'm like, we don't need to be talking about people's core fears and like trauma in the workplace. I'm sorry, I just don't think that belongs there. We're not prepared for that conversation, right? Maybe certain workplaces, but not most workplaces, right? ⁓ so it's centered around core fears and then behavioral responses to those. And ⁓ you know, s and there's ⁓ kind of Triads that go along with that. So, you know, three types within those nine that all kind of share things. So a triad whose kind of natural backup feeling is anger, a triad whose kind of natural backup ⁓ feeling is fear, and a tr triad whose kind of natural backup feeling is sadness. And so I know, and it's hard, but when you start to see how those ⁓ come to light, it helps you understand the motivations of others. And so I think it's a really great tool for self-reflection, for coaching. I think it's a great therapy tool. It has helped me grow a lot. So I'm an Ennegram eight. Mm-hmm. Generalizations about Enneagram Eight are that we really ⁓ honesty is critically important to us, and candor is really important to us because that is like safety. Because we don't ever want to feel like we are being deceived or misled or controlled by others. And so control is a big factor with AIDS. Now Some of the stereotypes, the negative stereotypes are that we can be angry or rage out. Did I have the nickname Rage Ryan when I was growing up? Yes, I did. Wow. But but y you know, it's like that's what Ennegram's all about growth, you know. And so the growth t for eight is towards a two, which is caring and compassionate and given to others. But there's, you know, dark sides and light sides to every single number. Yeah. And there's always Growth is not linear, right? It's in spirals. And so you can grow, but you contract a little bit and you can fall back on negative behaviors. But it's all about building self-awareness in your reactions to things. ⁓ so I would love for you to share about your Enneagram type. My Enneagram type is three. And I know. ⁓ and it's I do want to understand what is going on in my brain that I collect eights in my life. I work with two eights. I live with an eight. ⁓ and so I don't know if I'm just I d I maybe I'm I I feel like it's a form of punishment in some ways that like not that sounds too harsh, but ⁓ the the eights hurt my feelings sometimes. And so I have to be careful. But when I think about, you know, the generalizations you talked about, the light and the dark, when I think about eights, I think about loyalty and justice and honesty. ⁓ and so those things I I I think ⁓ if we take a step back, what I would have said at the very beginning of this is. Every time I'm working with somebody, I say, this is your strength, this is your personality type. And there it's a double-edged sword. You can fight for justice and be the loudest person in the room fighting for somebody else. And that can get you into trouble when you know you're not going to be able to make ⁓ any kind of headway or actually change, affect change in any way. So it becomes your strength, but also like if you don't know it and don't measure yourself in some capacity, it could become a blind spot for you. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Some of the like good qualities of threes are that they can kind of detach from their emotions. They have a skill at doing that just to get work done. But oftentimes threes are some of the most sensitive people and they do kind of shut their feelings off for the sake of ⁓ performance, for the sake of efficiency. They're like, that is a waste of my time right now, you know. But I think that's why they get along with eights because eights like to compartmentalize really hard and just like get shit done. You know, they like to just get to work. So I think that like. We ha always have that in common. Yeah. The other thing I would say is, you know, any gram three. I always know somebody's a three when I say, like, what are what's your worst fear? And what do you say to that? You don't want to be embarrassed. And while an eight is kind of ornery and enjoys embarrassing people for fun sometimes, we're never going to, if we really care about you, we're never gonna let you be embarrassed on something that we can control. Yeah. So we're always gonna say, like, fix your hair, you know, or like let's change your top or whatever. You know, like we're gonna be honest because we want you to do your best and look your best. And that's like our form of love and loyalty. I love that. Whereas I like I love having threes around me because they are positive and help me reframe and I can get in just doom spiral. Some like I'm get mad, you know? And threes can help me come out of it and say, like, well, here's the next best thing we can do. Or how about we just stop talking about that right now and get something happy? Yeah. We really could talk about each one of these all day long. All day long. Yeah. ⁓ okay. So talk a little bit about MBTI. Yeah. So MBTI, it's probably, I think I don't know if this is actually true, but just based on the data points around it, it kind of feels this way that it's probably one of the most popular. It's been around for a long time. 50 million people have taken it, which seems wild. ⁓ but it's used, if you look at Fortune 500 companies, it the estimates of almost 90% of Fortune 500 companies use MBTI in some capacity. And so it's one of the most recognized personality types. It's based on the Jungian type theory, which measures four preferences. So you have extrovert and introvert, which is measuring where you get and give your energy. It's not can you talk to people, but it's where you get and give your energy. Where is your battery charge? I heard someone else explain it as do you exert energy on the world or do you let the world exert energy towards you. So like there's a chair in the middle of the room and you move it. Okay, sorry. Keep going. No, no, that's exactly it's your example. No, finish it. Yeah. Okay. So like if there's a chair in the room and you are somebody that's going to move it out of the way, you're likely closer to extrovert. Whereas if you're somebody that's going to go around the chair, you're likely more of an introvert. Yes. It but but I think because we talk about extrovert introverts so much in the world, we're more comfortable talking about it as can you talk to people? And that's not the case. There's introverts that have the most wonderful relationships and communication and conversations. ⁓ so the second one is the S and the N, ⁓ sensor and intuitive. It's how you take in information. The next is ⁓ thinker-feeler, so tier F, how you make decisions. And the quickest way I'd describe that one is do you where do you start the decision-making process? Not where do you end up or what else do you include, but where do you start? Do you start with your head or your heart? Do you start with the budget, the timeline, or do you start with how it's gonna impact people? ⁓ and then the last is ⁓ judgers and perceivers, which is the one that people have a lot of feelings about because they don't want to be a judger. It's just negative connotation around that word. But that one is how you approach structure. So judgers are very structured, very methodical, very planned. They know what they're doing today, tomorrow, two years from now. And perceivers, ⁓ the motto for a perceiver is, we'll see. Yeah. We'll see. I bet you can guess, people can guess what each of us are. Yes. The fact that I talk like this, like I'm very regimented. I'm very, yes, I'm very, I'm a very structural person. Yeah. So it is probably, I would say, some of the best uses of MBTI, the way that I like to use them, is when ⁓ there might be a team where they're it's not even the cohesion, but it's like they're having communicate, they're butting heads and they can't figure out why. Or it's two individuals that ⁓ just can never seem to get past the brainstorming phase of something, or even a married couple, ⁓ how they communicate with each other. ⁓ I I have joked that I have never seen two judgers or two perceivers ⁓ have a successful marriage, but I that's probably not true at all. But it's funny. ⁓ But like who's gonna pick up the dry cleaning? Exactly. Who's gonna make sure the kids have the right shoes for the different practices or all the things? Yeah. And so what I've found is that most of the time there's been one time where somebody said, Actually, me and my husband both are perceivers. And I said, How do you function? And they said, I have to be a judger at home and I don't like it. I'm very bitter about it. I never realized that's where that comes from. And I like, these are your motivations and your communication styles and things. So ⁓ it's really good to help reframe. why you're acting the way you are or why you think the way you are or that you do or why you communicate the way you do. And I feel like once you understand that, you've heard me say dozens of times, the two most important skills that we need to practice as leaders is communication and relationship building. If you know someone better, you can communicate with them better. If you understand where they're coming from or why they think the way they do, there's a good chance that you might be a little bit more empathetic and graceful ⁓ in the way that you communicate with them. So that's why where I like to use MBTI. Yeah, I love that. One thing I'll so I want to ask you what's your MBTI MBTI type, your Myers Briggs type. ⁓ but one of the other things I'll say on this is this is where I think it gets a bad rap because to your point, it narrows people down to four letters, right? But it's it's Every letter is a spectrum. Sure. So it's a one to thirty when you take the assessment. And when you look at it, where you land, are you in the first third, the third middle third, or the third third on each of those kind of presents differently for each of those letters. So there's a lot more depth and complexity when you go in and nerd out on the assessment to the degree that I like to. But a lot of people just take it at surface level and it's helpful. Like I still love it, but There's a lot more depth to it than gets recognized, I think, in kind of popular culture. Okay. So what's your MBTI type? My MBTI is ESTJ. Yeah. I ⁓ I cringe when I say it sometimes, though I love ESTJs and I think that they're amazing. But sometimes I what the reason why I cringe is when I talk, when I think about mine, ESTJs are very ⁓ they will they can they have a tendency to dominate conversations, but they're also the first to speak up to just get the ball rolling. ⁓ they are going to ⁓ start the decision making process thinking about the data, the facts. Now, what I've had to do as a consultant, as an as an educator at LSU in a bunch of different roles is I've had to learn how to flex into how do we how does this gonna affect the people. So I feel like that's the one where I'm closest to the middle on that spectrum. And then I'm very orderly. I like plans, I like timelines, I like checklists. So ⁓ for someone like you or the human that I get to live with, ⁓ who have very different personality types than me. Like I think Patrick and I have the exact opposite types. I probably drive him crazy because I'm so regimented. I'm like, we're gonna do this, then this, and then this, and it has to go in this order. And he's like, let's just go to dinner. Yeah. Like he's just very, very so much more relaxed in a lot of his decision making. ⁓ so yeah. What about you? What's your type? Well, I want to ask really quickly one more thing. Do you know kind of where you fall in terms of like, are you 30 out of 30 on anything or like a three out of 30 on anything? Yeah. Yes. The last time I looked at it, I think I am like 30 out of 30 of on three out of four of them. ⁓ wow. I think the only one where I vacillate a little bit is the TF, thinker feeler. Because and I think ⁓ when I tell people because it's that spectrum of zero, thirty on each side. Where are you? The closer to the middle you are, the more it might depend on the context that you're in. At work, I have to be more of a perceiver because people cancel on me all the time for different things or things just change or the we now a hurricane happens and we have You work with a lot of perceivers. Yeah, I work with a lot of perceiv. I think, yeah, well, that that's a story for another day. ⁓ but then ⁓ I've had to be a little bit more. graceful in how I connect with people. And I am so it's weird to be like an empath and a thinker and that constant push and pull between the two. So yeah, ⁓ yeah that's E S T J E S T J is mine. What about you? So I am E N T P, which ⁓ is often called like the mad scientist or the the debater or the inventor are some of the taglines that come with it. And I feel like all of those suit me. It's kind of ⁓ in ⁓ like DD alignment. I say it's like chaotic good. For those who don't know what D D is, can you please edge Dungeons and Dragons alignment? I we could look, we should have thrown this into the personality assessment mix. DD alignment. That would have been great. Or what's your Hogwarts house? ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Let's see. This is a whole thing. I could I want to have a whole rubric for all of the assessments. Okay. Well you're you've created one for listeners to be able to see, but we didn't include If you're a Slytherin or maybe maybe one day we'll add it. I want to do like research and like match all of these types. Actually, this is kind of crazy, but I used to work at an organization where we took disc assessments and he lined it up with the characters, like figured out what what character in Harry Potter is each of the letters. Yeah. And then mapped it out. And ⁓ yeah, I didn't really like what mine was. Each grouping had a care had a character and it made it so much easier for everybody, especially the millennials in the office, understand, ⁓ okay, you're you're so and so you're Harry or you're Hermione. Yeah. I was Dolores Umbridge. ⁓ yeah. That sounds about right. Honestly, yeah. She's got like she's a stickler for the rules and she likes to wear pink outfits that's exactly right. That's what I was literally gonna say. I love that. ⁓ whereas I think serious black is the ENTP of the Harry Potter world, which is like, you know, rebel with a cause. Right. And I think that it also like overlaps to the Enneagram eight, right? Yeah. I'm very on so I'm like thirty out of thirty in, which is I always think about it as concrete versus conceptual thinking. So it that's sensing versus intuitive. I think sensing is like concrete and intuitive is like conceptual. So I'm like all concept baby. And then I'm thirty out of thirty on the P. Like I'm I'm RP. I'm very high on T. I'm right in the middle on EI. And in some assessments, I've come out as an I, which surprises. I'm a thirty out of thirty extrovert. And that has always surprised me too. And I think it's maybe it's less of who I am innately and more of like a coping mechanism that I have to withdraw. Yeah. ⁓ because I you know, if we're on in front of clients and then I just need to like recharge. Yeah. So it's interesting. You're such an empathetic person though. I think that does like drain you naturally. Which we're gonna talk about Clifton Strengths in a minute. Yes. Let's get let's jump into Clifton Strengths. I know that's your favorite. Yeah, it is my favorite. ⁓ so we talked about MBTI and Enneagram as ⁓ insight, you know, and awareness tools. I like to think about ⁓ Clifton Strengths and Hogan as understanding strengths and selection. ⁓ And so what I mean by that is what are you naturally gifted at? And ⁓ how do you strengthen your leadership potential? So these are both tools that are really geared towards making you a better leader, the best version of yourself. Whereas those other tools are really about self-understanding. These are really about performance. Okay. so Clifton Strengths, again, is my favorite, developed by Gallup after decades of research. They would ⁓ survey companies from Fortune 500s down to single owner LLCs to understand how people operated in the workplace, what engagement looked like. ⁓ and what they did is they narrowed it down to 34 strengths. And so these strengths are kind of innate talents that people have that can be productively applied to become strengths. And they define strength as something that you can per ⁓ have near perfect performance of on a consistent basis. Okay. And so it's grounded in a pretty standard framework similar to other assessments. So there's four domains. So executing, influencing, strategic thinking, and relationship building. And you see those in all kinds of other assessments, right? But each of those domains has a series of different talents that fall within it. ⁓ so some interesting facts. ⁓ you know, a lot of people when they take the report, you just get your top five. You can also unlock it and get your full 34. So that shows you your full 34 in rank order. You know, we say you're one through five is what you're obviously naturally really gifted at. And then you're six through ten is what you have the strong ability to influence. And so through the productive application of your strengths over time, you can change the rank order of them. So people always say, Well, I've taken the assessment once. Should I take it again? With Clifton strengths, I'm like, why not if enough time has passed? Like I wouldn't take it every year. That's nonsense. You're it's gonna be inconsistent. Right. But if you take it, you know. Here and then you take it five years later, you might have slightly different results. My experience is people still generally have the same top 10 strengths, or that same top 10 is still within their top 13. Like maybe a couple filter down and a couple filter up, but the rank order will change. And that's because the different scenarios that you are in strengthen those talents in different ways. And so I'll give a specific example. My ⁓ when I very first took Clifton strengths, my one through five were ideation strategic input, ideation strategic input learner, what am I for futuristic, futuristic, okay? And then my six ⁓ were like intellection, competition, maximizers, self-assurance, and something else. I'm not remembering right now. so You know, that was all in the strategic thinking domain. And this is when I was building a research department. This is when I was really deep in data analysis as my job. And so all of those strategic thinking strengths and really conceptual strengths helped me a lot. I then went to a company where I was the oldest person there at the ripe age of 38. So I was managing a lot of people who were, you know, in their early twenties. That did not have a ton of work experience, that did not have a ton of professionalism. And when I, you know, over I shouldn't say didn't have professionalism, but you know, we're were haven't had a lot of experiences yet. That's right. Yeah. It was it was a very ⁓ new work environment. I later took the Clifton strengths ⁓ while I was in that role and strategic moved up to number one because I was having to really lean into that. learner and input were in there, futuristic was in there, but command rose up. To take my number five spot over ⁓ one of them. Yeah. Because I was having to lean into command. ⁓ it just bumped up because it was something I was having to show up and leverage every single day. So that I feel like that's an important distinction to make is that a lot of times when people take assessments and they realize, ⁓ here's what I'm bad at. I need to focus on that thing. And that's kind of like ⁓ sometimes a basis for an individual development plan when we're working with individual clients. But What this is all built on is look at your top 10, focus on making those even better. Don't worry about what's at the second list. You're not naturally good at them. It's a waste. I don't want to say a waste of time. No, it's a waste of time and energy. Right, right. It's yeah, it is. It if if you've only got so much time and so much energy and so many resources, like why are you spending something where you're only gonna make a small, like inch movement where if you look if you look at your strengths and you could move a mile because so this is how I I put it to people. I say if your baseline is here and you focus on and this is your baseline strengths and you focus on productively applying them every day, you're gonna get up to here. You're gonna be top tier. If you your baseline is down here and you're not naturally good at this, and you expend that same effort, you're gonna spend all that effort to get to mid. Yeah. Who wants to be mid ⁓ spend all that effort to just be okay? Yeah. When you can spend all that effort to be excellent. And so then it's not that you ignore your lesser lesser talents, but you learn how to manage them. And the reality is, is everybody has figured out how to do this. Most people have figured out how to manage the their lesser talents effectively. And and where really we see what people refer to as weaknesses showing up, it's misapplication or overuse of strengths. And so I'll give another example of this. I have a strength in ideation. So I love coming up with ideas. It's really fun for me. That was a really challenging trait to have when I was early in my career. And my job was just to do. And people thought all of my ideas were really, really annoying. And I had to learn what is the right way to apply my strength in ideation to not come across as insubordinate, which a lot of organizations thought that I was, or to not come across as really annoying, which I had bosses tell me that it was. but once I got to a different level in the organization. That strength was a real asset and a real value. So I had to learn how to mitigate it until I got to a certain point in my career where I could productively apply it in a way that was relevant to my role. Or some self-awareness to know if you're gonna come up with the ideas, you may need to partner with somebody that can take those ideas and get them across the finish line. ⁓ that's my life. Yeah. Absolutely. That's every day. Yeah. Can I ask you a kind of a off-topic question? It's not in our show notes, but I think that you could help with this. Do you see people? I feel like Of all of the ones we're talking about, Clifton Strengths is the one where sometimes people get a little clammy. They get a little resistant to some of their strengths because it's this talk around these are your God-given talents. This is in your genetic makeup that you are just good at these things. And when you hold a mirror to someone, they sometimes go, I don't know if I want to be known for that. Or like, why are we spending so much time talking? They just get uncomfortable talking about things that they're good at. Yeah. And I don't know if that's like a societal thing or an age thing or a gender thing or if it you've seen it across the board. But I feel like when I talk to people, they're like, yeah, that's me. Don't know if I really like that. But yeah, that's me. They don't always wear it with a badge of honor. I don't feel like that happens to me a lot. Like truly. Okay. I feel like most of the time when I ask people, they say, I feel really seen. Okay. Now what I will tell you, I see an exception to this. It is almost always women. And it's almost women with specific strengths. Okay. And specific strengths and things like Woo. Yeah, I know you were gonna say it. And significance, people are really uncomfortable with significance, which means you want to be significant. You and and what that means is you want to do work that's gonna make an impact. And it's like if a man has that, everybody thinks that's great. And when a woman has that, she's like, I sound so vain. And that's not what it's about at all. And so I'm constantly trying to reframe when I see that situation happening because it is those strengths are superpowers, you know, like. I would love to have those strengths, truly. I can't make small talk at a dinner conversation. I learned, well, I want to be. I was about to say you're better than you think you are. Well, it's animal facts of what come out, right? It's your animal fact of the day, Adrian. You don't want to know what's in my head right now. I learned a lot of things about koalas yesterday. So if you know anything about them, you just know I'm gonna leave it there. Okay. Anyway, all this is to say, most of the time when I do Clifton strengths with people, which I've been doing it since twenty nineteen, so almost a decade. ⁓ And I do it probably weekly, clips and strengths with someone. So I've done a lot. Most people feel really sane when they get their strengths. And most of the time, when people don't, it is women and they are uncomfortable. So maybe that question was less for our clients or listeners and maybe more for myself. Yeah. Yeah, no, but that that happens. Yeah. Right. ⁓ do you want to share your top five real quick? ⁓ you're gonna be not ⁓ you're gonna be slightly disappointed. I don't know that I can remember. I've also taken it three times. But I will say the ones that have stayed consistent in my top ten are things like learner context. So I love to learn. And if you want me to do something, tell me how you did it last time so I can learn. And then I might do it differently, but I just need that context. ⁓ so learner context communication. You are gifted at communication. Well, I was gonna be really disappointed if it wasn't in there, you know, three degrees in communication. It should be in there. ⁓ I do have woo, and that one's a hard one to own. Which I say stands for winning others over. Yes or wooing them. and ⁓ I do have ⁓ significance and ⁓ achiever. Mm-hmm. You have achiever. Yeah. That's right. Maybe you come to focus. I've which is in your top ten. Which is ⁓ very interesting. ⁓ the one that surprised me the most the last time I took it is in my top ten I have harmony. And I kinda always thought that like I didn't need harmony, but I think that's something that I've maybe pulled up into my top ten because of the work that I do and like trying to bring people together and and try to get us all on the same page to achieve something. You have a high efficiency orientation though. And harmony, while it's a relationship building strength, it has an efficiency orientation. It's like, can we stop arguing and just get back to work? Yeah. Which is very you. Yeah. ⁓ okay. I'm gonna talk about Hogan really fast. And then we're gonna keep moving. Okay. So the last kind of ⁓ of the performance tools is Hogan. I'm gonna be totally honest. It's not my favorite assessment. ⁓ a lot of number one, it's viciously expensive and I don't think the results are worth it. Hot take. Ooh, hot take. Okay. ⁓ Sorry, that's just how I feel. But ⁓ what I will say is informative about Hogan is that it does show where people ⁓ if people are kind of stressed in their role, like if it is stretching them in a way that is beyond their kind of natural capacity or what they're naturally good at, ⁓ it is really good at building self-awareness. So helping you understand kind of like what are your derailers, what are your motivators, what is going to ⁓ there's a values component. helps you understand what do you really value at work. So are you motivated by money? Are you motivated by title? Are you motivated by impact? It's really a lot of employers like it because it helps them see, okay, this is someone who has got, you know, it's got some clear definitions of what potential looks like. And so you can quickly identify if somebody kind of has that innate potential. And it helps you understand what are people's motivators. So that way you can know that this person is really driven by family. and legacy. And so ⁓ throwing more money at them at a certain point is only gonna go so far, right? And so it it can be really helpful in those ways. I think what it is hard for me about Hogan is that ⁓ I don't think that it has a lot of tools for how to productively apply the information going forward to the degree that something like a Clifton Strings has or something like Enneagram has. ⁓ I I That's just it it to me, it's almost more diagnostic than ⁓ forward looking. Yeah. So I'm gonna ask a similar question that I asked about Clifton Strength's about Hogan. ⁓ so you're right in that I it's probably my least favorite of the ones we're gonna talk about for a number of reasons. Some of some that you mentioned. But another one is that I think sometimes because it focuses so much on derailleurs, the things that are gonna get in your way, people feel ⁓ a little bit. ⁓ more uncomfortable talking about that. So w what has been your experience? Why do why are people a little less like they're they'd rather talk about their strengths than their weaknesses. I know that that's like a question, but like what's the what's more about it? Because it's lacking so much context. Okay. Right. So you talked about what was the phrase you used? ⁓ stereotypes versus general generalizations. I think that sometimes it can feel like stereotyping. Okay. Because you don't have the context behind why these behaviors are showing up. When in reality the Hogan is making some generalizations, but people have feelings about those generalizations when they say things like capriciousness, you know, which is a phrase that can come up in a Hogan assessment, right? And so I think some of the language can be a little bit prickly. ⁓ the other thing that I think is challenging about it is that ⁓ it shows it all together. And Clifton Strengths does this too, right? It shows you your top strengths and you can go and look at your bottom ones too, but ⁓ It's hard to kind of suss out without a coach working with you. It's hard to interpret your own report to understand, okay, what what is this saying that I'm good at? It's all kind of hidden knowledge and language. And so you really do have to have an interpreter to help you understand it. And that's just, I'm an egalitarian. I just think people should be able to take an assessment and and learn about it and understand it themselves. Now, I always want to go through somebody's Clifton Strengths them with them or an MBTI with them. So that way they don't end up making stereotypes. you know, and they understand the generalizations, but Hogan is just particularly, I think, ⁓ obfuscated. Okay. That's fair. Okay. Well, we have another type of assessments. So the next one is focusing on team productivity. Yeah. And we'll talk about disc and working genius. But I want to hear about this. I've taken disc before and it feels very similar to MBTI, but potentially different because it's not just personality, it's also productivity. So Tell what what do I need to know about disc assessment? So Disk ⁓ talks about four different styles and it's dominance, influence, steadiness, and conscientiousness. And so it's very good at taking patterns and behaviors and communication styles and using that to apply these kind of four What we call them? Four styles to how to respond in turn to that person. So I use this a lot with sales teams. I use this a lot with fundraising teams. Because if you're somebody who's like, just get to the point. I just want the bullets. You know, that's probably a high D person. If this is somebody who's like, and and why do we do it this way? And hold on, slow down. And now I want to, you know, that's probably somebody who's high conscientiousness, you know, and they really want to make sure that they're doing things right and they're doing things. consistent and that is kind of their true north, right? ⁓ and so and influencing, you know, somebody that's high I is gonna be somebody who really wants to understand, you know, what's this gonna mean for me? It's gonna want a little bit more of the pupil element, right? it's gonna be the application of some of that woo that we talked about earlier. And now they're all again, all this is a spectrum, right? So you can be DI, so you can be, you know, dominant but lean I, which is what I am. You know, you can be conscientious leaning towards, you know, that structure, right? And that steadiness. ⁓ so all of this kind of folds in together, but it's really, I say it's like a quick and dirty tool for separating people into categories. It's just a quick, simple categorizing tool to help you understand to me the most practical application is communication. Yeah. This is the only one that we overlap. ⁓ really? You're D I too? I'm a D with like a Like an offshoot to eye every once in a while. Yep. But yeah, I was like the the diagram is a circle and your your dot is somewhere in that quadrant. Mine is on the edge of the dot. And it was the first time I ever took a disc assessment, it was ⁓ at when I was working at L LSU full time. And the other two people in my so we all got in our groups and then we talked about it. The other two people in my group, ⁓ one was former military and one was a police officer. ⁓ interesting. ⁓ dear. I am in some interesting company because they had th there were stereotypes with their professions too, but they were hard and rigid and and by the rules and by the book. And I was ⁓ just a washed up sorority girl sitting in the sitting in the D category. Yeah, it was interesting. It is. I love that we have one that overlaps because we don't have anything else that overlaps. I know, and this is why I say, ⁓ you know, disc is like a hatchet and and MBTI or cliffs and strengths are like you know, ⁓ a scalpel. So okay, you know, big we're gonna be generally saying high high productivity, wanna get things done, gonna be pretty direct in how we go about it. Also wanna care about people and don't want to hurt people's feelings as best we can do that. ⁓ you care a little bit more about structure than I do, but really for you, I think you lean with efficiency, right? ⁓ over consistency. Like you can roll with something if if you need to, right. And this but this is where I think the other assessments get below the surface of that and give you a lot more color and context ⁓ and clues to who the person is. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Okay. So that was quick and dirty on disc. You want to talk about working genius? We'll do another quick and dirty on working genius. So working genius is by one of our favorite authors and just leadership guru helper friend, ⁓ Patrick Linchoni. And he created this in twenty twenty two. So it's gonna pause on that. Okay, what? You said linchoni. Yes. This is news to me. You blew my mind. Well, it I only pronounce it that way because I kept having the sinking feeling that I was pronouncing it incorrectly. And you'd like learned some things about Italian. Well, yes. And so his ⁓ the middle part of his last name has a C I C I O. So C I in Italian is ch not not C, or so we've always said lincioni. Yeah. It's lin. Everybody I know does. Lincioni. Lincioni. I learned something new today. Okay, keep going. We just to verify, you know, trust but verify. We did pull up a ⁓ a video of him actually pronouncing his own name and he said Lynchoni. So like take notes for real. Okay. So this is the newest tool in the personality assessment lineup. It was created in 2022. There's a book. I would highly recommend reading the book. It's a very quick read, it's narrative-driven, so you can really understand the application of this. It's it's actually, I just love the way he writes, a number one. But it is ⁓ this is not. really a personality assessment. It's more about where your strengths lie in working on a program, like working through a project. So there are, and it's really easy to remember because he said he wanted to create a widget to help you understand. And so the acronym widget is the it that is the six letters. So it's ⁓ and it's think about this in terms of a timeline. Okay. So wonder project timeline. Wonder is first for the W for widget. Wonder and invention. So that's can you create the idea? Do you do you even have do you can you even fathom a world in which this idea could could come about? And then do you actually brainstorm the idea? And then we have discernment and galvanizing. So discernment being able to narrow down what do we actually need to focus on? Which one would be the best one? Galvanizing is let's get everybody on board. We got to get everybody excited about this. And this is the way we're moving. And then the last two are enablement, enablement and tenacity. So Can you be a self-starter to get the project going? And then do you have the drive to ⁓ get it across the finish line? So widgets admire that. Huh? I admire the tenacity. Yeah. So well, speaking of water, ⁓ I know what yours are, but why don't tell listeners what yours are? So I'm on the widge end. So my top two. So it kind of gives you your top two and then the two that you can flex into. Your two that are your genius, the two that you can flex into and the two that like are just probably never gonna be. Right. So I'm actually invention and discernment were my highest. So I like to figure out like we've got all these ideas. Okay, w how what could we do with them? And then which are the right ones to move forward with? ⁓ I think I le and then wonder the big ideas was my like next one that I lean into and then galvanizing. I knew you'd be galv yeah, I knew you're galvanizing. Mine are enablement and tenacity. I want to f like, and I think that's where This one was really helpful to me why I loved it so much and why I actually forced our entire team to do this one. I loved it that you did. Yeah. It was so eye-opening. Well, because what I realized is you and I work together on so many different things, whether that's TEDx Baton Rouge or something at Success Labs, and you like you have strengths, like God given strengths that like you're gonna be able to come up with really great ideas and you're gonna go ahead and vet your own ideas. And I can be helpful in, okay, if this is what you want to do and which one we want to focus on, here's how we're gonna do it. Let me create a spreadsheet to track our movements and what we need to do. And then also I'm gonna push you across that finish line because I wanna, I wanna win and I wanna finish. Yeah. Yeah. And like I I need that. Like I know that I am my best self when I have a partner that is that way. Now, what's hard for me is when I come in new to an organization and that wonder and invention and even discernment is like not what is valued or needed at the time. I'm expected to be in that enablement and tenacity. And I just I have none of it. The only way I can get an ounce of tenacity to finish things is if I'm just so fired up about it. Well and this is this is where the genius of working genius comes in and where people usually have the aha moment. We had one of these aha moments when we were working on TEDx Baton Rouge where I said, we just I need you to email these people And ask them for money. I needed we needed sponsorships. Yeah. And so I literally set us down at this table and I said, email these three people. Yeah. It felt very awkward for me to do that with you because I felt like I was your teacher telling you what to do. But also it was, I know that you need concentrated time to be able to get this done. I need body doubling. That's like an ADHD term. Like ⁓ I we will have our intern bean come sit in my office and she will just watch me. approve things because I just otherwise I have no desire to get it done. It's not where I get energy. It's not where I get joy. Yeah. ⁓ I want to come up with the ideas. I don't want to do them. Yeah. ⁓ and I don't know that I always want to come up with the ideas, but once you come up with an idea and poke some holes in it, I'm going to start to go, Okay, here's here's how this all works now. Let here It's so fun to work with you because I will have an idea and I'm like, I just I'm like not sure how to do it. And you're like, ⁓ let's get out some paper. Here's exactly how we're going to do it. Yeah. Thanks. That's great. Where I see this happening for me, ⁓ that one thing that I try to lean into is I just had a a phone call with a friend, ⁓ not a client, but a friend, and said, and they said, I have this idea and I don't know how to communicate it. And I said, just talk to me. Talk and she probably has a lot of wonder. And she just was like spitting out things in all the wrong order. And I'm taking notes and I said, Okay, here's your TED Talk, here's your elevator pitch. Here's how you need to talk to that, talk to other people about what you're trying to do. And she was like, How did you, how did you even hear that? And I'm like, because you've got all these different pieces and parts, you just need a right order. That's where I do love my structure. Yeah. Because I can provide that for somebody else that's got all this other stuff. And that's really fun. And it's a real talent. People need it. Well, and I think, I think the ideation is just such it is incredible. I love watching you think about What's something that we could do t 10 years from now? And I'm like, I'm I'm concentrating on today and tomorrow. I don't know what I'm doing this afternoon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally get that. ⁓ and that's again, like the whole point of all of these tools is to help you better understand and appreciate the people that you work with. You know, I've worked with people that were high tenacity in the workplace before and we had a lot of friction until I understood their talents. And my talents and we understood each other better. And then we were able to start productively working. Yeah. I think that is kind of the crux of all of it. These are tools that can help you understand people and by using them, consistently using them. I love what you just said and I want to repeat it, that you can start to appreciate and value other people. And that's when people feel seen, they feel invested, they feel like they ⁓ want to show up and do the hard work and they know how to get ⁓ They know how to better work. Like I know how to work with you better now. Yeah. Because of all of these different tools and how we've stacked them on top of each other. That's exactly right. So you they're only as good as the amount of intent that you're going to put behind them and the amount of work that you're going to use to actually use them. That's right. That's exactly right. I totally agree. ⁓ so to put a wrap on it, ⁓ we talked through Clifton Strengths, Hogan, MBTI, Disc, Enneagram, and Working Genius. Talk through all of those. ⁓ We talked about how there's kind of like the right tool for the right situation. You need to kind of diagnose what that is. ⁓ there's, you know, we talked about the idea that you need to keep these living. Like don't take it once and let it sit on a shelf. Like think about how you can productively apply it. ⁓ and that it's totally okay to stack tools that that can actually be really helpful. Is there anything else that I missed? Yeah, I just want to have that that caveat in there one more time of like have some discernment about how and how and when you use them. Don't use them in in that you can it can help you learn more about the other, but don't make hiring, firing, and I don't know, life major life decisions ⁓ based on somebody's profile or somebody's combination of letters or colors or whatever it is. That's exactly right. Yeah, we didn't even talk about color palette or emergenetics. There's so many other personality assessments that we know a lot about. So if this is something that you're interested in, if this is something you want to learn more about. ⁓ we're going to share a free resource that helps you understand the tools that we talked about today and what's the most productive way to apply them in our humble opinion. And then ⁓ if you want us to come in and work with you, what are some of the things that we can do with teams, Melissa? Yeah, it will depend. I would start by asking a lot of questions. What are you using this for? What's your goal? But we could definitely do some individual assessments and work with people one on one. We can do that in a team dynamic. I'm actually working with an entire company. They're all taking MBTI. And we're actually gonna do some cool things about mapping where ⁓ where your strengths are ⁓ in sub-teams versus the entire organization so you can really start to see those patterns and and where work might need to start or stop or where we need to pause. Yeah. Yeah. So we can work with individuals, we can work with teams, we can do workshops, we can do ongoing work. Yes, you name it. Just reach out to us. You can find us on social at Success Labs. If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, subscribe, and share. ⁓ leave a comment. And tune in next time. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you all for tuning in. If this conversation was useful to you, the best thing you can do is share it with someone who might use it. Leave us a review, and please subscribe wherever you're listening. 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