Latest / GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast / The Story of KISS: Masters in the Business of Rock
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- Garage to Stadiums Music History Podcast The Story of KISS: Masters in the Business of Rock Host: Dave Anthony, Garage to Stadiums Guest: Martin Popoff, Author of KISS ’76: The Greatest Year of Rock's Most Dynamic Band [00:00:00] Dave Anthony: Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony, and this is the Garage to Stadiums podcast. On each episode, we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame, and play some of the songs that marked that journey Welcome to Garage to Stadiums. Today's story is the story of Kiss From the streets of New York came four young men, including one born to Holocaust survivors. [00:00:31] Dave Anthony: Obsessed from their earliest days with becoming the biggest band in the world. Behind grease paint and fire, they transformed themselves into larger than life characters, igniting the imaginations of millions of teenagers. With thunderous riffs, explosive stage shows, and relentless ambition, Kiss became one of the most influential and commercially successful bands in rock history, selling over [00:01:00] 100 million albums worldwide. [00:01:02] Dave Anthony: Joining us for a second time is Martin Popoff. Martin joined us on our AC/DC episode, and he's written extensively about today's band, Kiss, including his first book, Kiss: At 50 Years, and his most recent work, Kiss '76, which carries the subtitle, The Greatest Year of Rock's Most Dynamic Band. Martin has quite a resume in the hard rock arena. [00:01:30] Dave Anthony: He's officially written more record reviews than anyone in the history of music journalism. In addition, he's penned approximately 135 books on hard rock, heavy metal, classic rock, prog, punk, and record collecting, and has contributed writing to several documentaries that have appeared on VH1 Classic. [00:01:54] Dave Anthony: Martin joins us today from Toronto. Welcome back to Garage to Stadiums, Martin. [00:02:00] [00:02:00] Martin Popoff: All right. Well, thanks for having me. Very cool. I mean, I've, I guess I was one of your very earliest guests, it looks like. [00:02:06] Dave Anthony: You, uh, definitely were. Uh, let's start with the question that a lot of people are gonna ask when they see the story of Kiss appearing on their, uh, podcast lists. [00:02:16] Dave Anthony: What would you say to people who dismiss Kiss as a novelty act or not to be taken seriously in music circles? [00:02:23] Martin Popoff: I have strong views about that, actually. Obviously, um, they, with the visuals, they were a novelty act and, you know, people will put down the simplicity of the songs. But I, I sort of have this, uh, this theory that, um, you know, you think of your Fleetwood Macs and Eagles and Billy Joels and Tom Pettys, and even to some extent, your Beatles early on. [00:02:47] Martin Popoff: Um, their challenge in life, what they wanted to do, their goal in life is, is kind of a brill building idea, where they're just trying to craft the perfect polished jewel of a song, something [00:03:00] pretty modest. You know, it's not jazz, it's not progressive rock, it's not crazy technical heavy metal, it's not classical music. [00:03:08] Martin Popoff: They're, they're literally trying to, um, craft the perfect pop song, uh, you know, with one measure of success being, um, how many people can it connect with sort of thing. And when you say how many people can it connect with- That, that generally very quickly means casual music fans. So Kiss is in that same, in, in that same boat. [00:03:30] Dave Anthony: The four members of the band were bassist Gene Simmons, guitarist Paul Stanley, guitarist Ace Frehley, and drummer Peter Criss. Gene Simmons was born in Haifa, Israel, and his real name at birth, Chaim Witz. He emigrated to the US from Israel at age eight with his Holocaust-surviving mom, and they settled in Queens in 1958. [00:03:54] Dave Anthony: Paul Stanley grew up in Washington Heights in northern Manhattan and moved later [00:04:00] to Queens, New York. His real name was Stanley Eisen, and he was also born into a Jewish family. He changed his name from Stanley Eisen to Paul Stanley in tribute to Paul McCartney. He was also born with a congenital condition called grade three microtia and atresia in his right ear. [00:04:19] Dave Anthony: Essentially, that meant he was missing a large part of that ear, and he also did not have an ear canal, making him deaf in his right ear. To be in the music industry with that kind of handicap shows how determined a character he was. Drummer Peter Criss' real name was George Criscuola from an Italian-American family living in Brooklyn's Williamsburg neighborhood. [00:04:42] Dave Anthony: Ace Frehley grew up in Bronx, and he was actually born Paul Frehley. He was given the nickname Ace because of his ability to approach girls and set them up with his friends. He took the name Ace to avoid confusion with Paul Stanley, who had previously chosen the [00:05:00] first name Paul as his go-forward name. [00:05:03] Dave Anthony: What's interesting is how the two main figures of Kiss initially got off on the wrong foot. Unbeknownst to them, bassist Gene Simmons and guitarist Paul Stanley had a mutual friend who invited them over to his apartment in the Washington Heights neighborhood where Paul also lived. The friend said, "This is my friend Gene," and Gene said to Paul, "Hey, I heard you write music. [00:05:26] Dave Anthony: Play me something." Paul found that demand quite smug. In fact, Paul has since commented his first impression of Gene was that he was actually quite opinionated, full of himself, brash, and insulting. Despite some early rough patches, the two bonded over songwriting and formed a band called Wicked Lester. [00:05:50] Martin Popoff: Wicked Lester, um, which did not come out at the time, but it's, it's just sort of a, um, generalist rock and roll album as y- as you did [00:06:00] back then. [00:06:00] Dave Anthony: So how did they come up with the name Kiss? Well, Gene Simmons, Paul Stanley, and Peter Criss were driving around New York brainstorming new names for the band, formerly known as Wicked Lester. [00:06:15] Dave Anthony: Criss mentioned that he had previously been in a band called Lips, which sparked Paul Stanley to suggest Kiss. The short word sounded familiar and recognizable no matter where they toured in the world, and the word is open to interpretation. For example, a passionate kiss or a kiss of death Shortly after the name was chosen, guitarist Ace Frehley designed their iconic logo, making the final S-S look like lightning bolts while doodling on a promotional poster. [00:06:49] Martin Popoff: Um, at the same time, you've got Neil Bogart breaking away from Buddha Records and starting his own, his own label, Casablanca. So almost in tandem, [00:07:00] Kiss becomes not the first thing that Casablanca ever put out, but the first signing and the first LP kind of thing. Um, so it's a short history. Uh, not much to it. [00:07:10] Martin Popoff: You know, the early days are spent, uh, just trying to make this thing work there in New York. [00:07:14] Dave Anthony: Let's talk about their, you know, early shows. This, this is a story of rapid rise. They performed their first show at the Popcorn Club in Queens, New York. The makeup was worn, but it wasn't till March that the personas were first seen. [00:07:28] Dave Anthony: What, what, what happened in March of '73? How'd they come up with these personas? [00:07:32] Martin Popoff: In fact, it was a rapid rise in a couple of ways. So it was a rapid rise to the first record. It's, it's within a couple of years they get their first record out. And yeah, it's, uh, you know, Gene had the idea of coming up with characters. [00:07:45] Martin Popoff: He loved comic books growing up as a kid. Mm. Uh, he wanted to be a superhero, so he came up with the one that was most superhero-ish. And Peter with the cat idea. Ace, uh, had always been kind of a, a, a spacey guy and a lover of [00:08:00] sci-fi and stuff like that, so that's how, that's how him, his image comes, comes out. [00:08:04] Martin Popoff: Mm-hmm. And then, uh, Paul, he's, he's the lover image. He's got the star thing going. So yeah, the, the character thing was a, was a smart thing that you can now... It gave everybody something to talk about, in parallel with the fact that it's four guys, so it's not five. It's not, it's not this large number. So you definitely had all this, uh, this great, uh, you know, inborn, uh, sort of narrative to the band that allowed everybody to, you know, kids to pick their favorite character. [00:08:33] Dave Anthony: Yeah. You talked about the scrappy New York attitude. They certainly seem to have that, and even coming up with such a bold look. Uh, they signed with Casablanca. You mentioned, uh, Bogart. Obviously he names the, the, the record company for, uh, the Humphrey Bogart character in Casablanca, Casablanca Records. [00:08:50] Martin Popoff: With Neil and Joyce. Um, Bill Aucoin is there, so the m- the management is there. Mm-hmm. And, uh, all... You know, the band are entrepreneurial about this [00:09:00] situation. Neil comes out as this sort of brash guy from Buddha, you know. I guess he burnt some bridges or, you know, there, there was, uh... He, he definitely was a mover and shaker and willing to roll the dice. [00:09:12] Martin Popoff: Yeah. And that's what they did. I... And at one point, uh, early on, they were fighting already with Warner Brothers. Um, Warner Brothers wanted them to ditch the makeup and, uh, you know, Bill Aucoin and the band, um, put their foot down and said, "No, we're sticking with this," sort of thing. [00:09:28] Dave Anthony: It's really interesting. [00:09:30] Dave Anthony: Um- The idea that they chose the makeup and the characters just aligned so well with that sort of young male comic book loving, uh, you know, individual and, and really that, that look caught on like that. So I guess that was something that really would resonate with a younger male audience. [00:09:49] Martin Popoff: Yeah, the comic book thing definitely would resonate with, uh, with the younger male audience. [00:09:53] Martin Popoff: But I think what works, what, what is best about this, um, you know, and this gets a little contentious, but they [00:10:00] say that the UK glam situation, like, you know, sev- 1970 to 1974 UK glam bands, they say glam didn't caught on because America was not ready for the androgyny or the, or the gay overtones- Right ... of, of that whole thing, right? [00:10:15] Martin Popoff: Right. Um, but, uh, and so there never really was a glam scene in America. I mean, you could think of the New York Dolls. Uh, they actually pulled off that look. [00:10:37] Martin Popoff: You can think of Alice Cooper, um, where they, they, it, it seemed a little more piecemeal with, with the whole thing. David Bowie was kind of the leader of the UK glam thing. So it's a, it's a, it's kind of a lazy conceit to, uh, to attach Kiss to any kind of a glam scene, because number one, they pulled it off. [00:10:57] Martin Popoff: It doesn't look particularly glam, [00:11:00] uh, and like I say, they pulled it off, and, uh, there really wasn't a glam scene in America. I mean- [00:11:06] Dave Anthony: So you're saying that Kiss added a level of testosterone to that look, that kinda pushed it through. [00:11:11] Martin Popoff: Yes, that's a good way of putting it, Dave. Like, like, definitely there is, there's, uh, a level of testosterone there. [00:11:18] Martin Popoff: You know, I'm looking at the cover of the book here, and you've got, uh, you know, this is later, obviously, '76, but, you know, Gene looked positively scary. He spit blood. He, he breathed fire. You know, he's got the, uh, you know, the, the, the dragon boots on. Yeah. Um- Very aggressive ... you know, Paul, Paul's got the hairy chest. [00:11:36] Martin Popoff: Um, you know, they all got the long hair. Peter looks cool. Peter looks cool in every picture. Yeah. Everybody thought Kiss looked absolutely cool. Yeah. We used to, we used to call them the, uh, the Oakland Raiders of rock, and we used to call the Oakland Raiders the Kiss of the NFL. There you go. Um, they just looked cool. [00:11:51] Dave Anthony: That first album comes out in February '74, um, simply called Kiss. Contains key songs like Strutter. Strutter.[00:12:00] [00:12:14] Dave Anthony: Nothing to lose. Deuce [00:12:30] Martin Popoff: This album has kind of a uniform hard rock sound that I consider kind of like a, like a chordal sound rather than a riffy sound. So it's, it's a little bit like the Morrissey catalog. Um, Mor- Morrissey's kind of this guy that, uh, not The Smiths, Morrissey. Morrissey is, I, I, I play those albums. I love Morrissey. [00:12:54] Martin Popoff: I love those albums, and I play them and I go, "I don't know how to describe this music." It's [00:13:00] really, it's really interesting track to track. [00:13:03] : Yeah, I've made up your [00:13:20] Martin Popoff: Um, nobody else sounds like the Morrissey albums, yet every single thing they do is very conservative in, in one way or another. Kiss was kinda like that in that it didn't sound like the earlier heavy metal from the UK. The only thing I can k- kinda compare Kiss to, uh, is heavy, the very heaviest stuff you got from Slade and the very heaviest stuff you got from Bachman-Turner Overdrive [00:13:58] Martin Popoff: It didn't sound like [00:14:00] Aerosmith, it didn't sound like Ted Nugent. Aerosmith had some Stonesiness and some riffiness to it that Kiss didn't have. Ted Nugent had some riffiness. Kind of riffiness is really all there is [00:14:24] Martin Popoff: Kiss essentially had, it, it sounded like, um, the edges were sawed off a little bit, yet it was heavy and aggressive sounding. But it, uh, as I said earlier, it's a little more chordal sounding. You know, you think of, uh, the first Uriah Heep album, Look at Yourself, In Rock, Machine Head, Paranoid [00:14:58] Martin Popoff: Um, there are these masterpieces [00:15:00] of heavy metal that are being made by British people. American heavy metal, uh, is almost never very impressive. It almost never catches up to what the UK was doing. But I, I think Kiss, uh, as I said earlier, um, you do get this fulcrum shift where those bands fade starting in around 1975. [00:15:19] Dave Anthony: So basically, this is, I think, this jumping off point, '74, where things start to, you know, they appear on, uh, ABC's In Concert. They're odd to me, Dick Clark. [00:15:30] Speaker 4: They have an army of fans worldwide. They don't look or sound like anybody else. This is Kiss. [00:15:43] Dave Anthony: The same day they aired on The Mike Douglas Show in March '74, and then they come out in October with Hotter than Hell, which has Let Me Go, Rock and Roll, Hotter than Hell. [00:15:56] Martin Popoff: She looked good she-[00:16:00] [00:16:06] Dave Anthony: And did the sound change on that second record? Did it- Like, I sense some sped-up, heavier metal [00:16:11] Martin Popoff: there. There is kind of a h- uh, a, an extra layer of darkness, and, uh, it does seem a little heavier. Uh, but the main thing that causes that album, that darkness, is a very extreme and controversial, a lot of people don't like it, recording. [00:16:25] : Mm. [00:16:25] Martin Popoff: So the recording is very turgid and muddy. Um, um, and it, and it kind of, kind of, uh, slows the songs down. They sound like they're in molasses almost. Okay. Um, so, so there is a, there is that, uh, that, that, you know, causes the album. A, a song like Strutter, for example, uh, and Cat Scratch Fever has this as well, where I think of the boogie AB switch, where what that means is that, um, there is modern heavy metal cordage and riffing, um, marbled with, with boogie structure [00:17:00] here and there. [00:17:00] Martin Popoff: So Strutter, if you can think of that in your head, the chorus is modern heavy metal. [00:17:15] Martin Popoff: The verse is boogie rock from the '50s [00:17:26] Martin Popoff: Um, so that's the boogie A-B switch. You can listen to a lot of Kiss songs and sit there with a switch and go A, B, A, B. A being modern, say, call that your modern heavy metal, and B being your boogie rock. So they're, so Kiss has moved on from the British blues boom. And in fact, any, any sort of links to old time rock and roll almost do come filtered through, uh, a, a subtle love of the UK glam scene. [00:17:53] Dave Anthony: Next, a strange random occurrence at a high school in Indiana in 1975 [00:18:00] indirectly gives Kiss a major asset they take into the future. [00:18:05] Allan Kozinn: I'm Alan Kozinn, a former music reviewer for The New York Times and co-author with Adrian Sinclair of The McCartney Legacy, a multi-volume biography of Paul McCartney focusing on his career after The Beatles. [00:18:18] Allan Kozinn: You're listening to The Garage to Stadiums Music History podcast, telling the stories of our music legends. [00:18:29] Dave Anthony: The '75 period, they continue this national exposure. They get on Midnight Special in May '75, and I'd love you to tell quickly the story of the high school in Indiana in 1975 that adopted Kiss and really came up with a creation that spawned a unique asset for Kiss. Do you wanna tell that story? [00:18:50] Martin Popoff: Yeah, so what happens there is that, uh, Bill Starkey and Jay Evans, uh, in Terre Haute, um, they, [00:18:57] Dave Anthony: they- Terre [00:18:58] Martin Popoff: Haute, Indiana. [00:18:59] Martin Popoff: [00:19:00] Yes. They start calling the radio station demanding them to play Kiss songs, and they start saying, "We're the Kiss Army." Um, and I think they even threaten to blow up the station or something. But, uh, so, so, uh, so they're, they're calling in and getting other people to call in and, uh, and the radio station kinda picks up on this. [00:19:18] Martin Popoff: And, uh, I think there's a petition that happens, and, uh, so fairly early on, um, they get some success in that. Um, all of this promotion helps them sell out a 10,000-seater here. Um, and so they start the Kiss Army and, you know, in their, in their, you know, little indie way, and then eventually, uh, Kiss catches on to the whole thing and, uh, and they sort of, uh... [00:19:44] Martin Popoff: Um, you know, it's a little, it's a little hazy the way it gets taken over. I don't think there's any ill will or anything there. But, but at, at one point Kiss decides, well, we, we gotta formalize this and run this like a proper business. So they eventually take it over and at one point, you know, it's rumored that they're making, like, [00:20:00] $5,000 a day at it or whatever. [00:20:02] Martin Popoff: Um, and I think the most formal coming out party for the idea of the Kiss Army is when, um, is when you get the, uh, the, the inner sleeve to Destroyer and there's that, there's that great looking... It's orange and black and it looks really cool and then, and it, it outlines the whole thing of how to join the Kiss Army, and I joined at that point. [00:20:21] Dave Anthony: Next, Kiss' first three albums have not sold that well and the band is desperate, and their record company, Casablanca, is near bankruptcy, but they collectively sit down and come up with a brilliant strategy to save the company and the band [00:20:39] Announcer: Want more Garage to Stadiums? Visit us on Instagram, YouTube, X, Facebook, and LinkedIn. [00:20:51] Martin Popoff: So what happens at this point is Casablanca's running out of money. Kiss is getting some press, but they're not selling any records. They've got three records out at this point. Dressed To Kill came [00:21:00] out as well. So two in '74, one in '75 so far, the, the studio album, Dressed To Kill. And, um, they can't even afford, um, to send them back into the studio, so they come up with this idea of doing the live album. [00:21:13] Martin Popoff: And again, Neil's entrepreneurial, the band is entrepreneurial, so is Bill Aucoin. You know, there's the stories of Bill Aucoin maxing out his credit cards and second mortgaging his house and all this stuff. So they make this live album, and it's a double live album, gatefold. It's got a insert. It's got those cool little letters written by the band. [00:21:31] Martin Popoff: It's got one of the most iconic live shots of all time, which is very staged. You know, nobody's ever gonna look like that, particularly on stage, but it's amazing looking. And, uh, and Eddie Kramer does a great job of capturing, um... You know, there's, there's obviously some major doctoring going on here, but they do a, a great job of capturing, uh, these songs that have, uh, kind of varied but competent enough productions across the first three albums[00:22:00] [00:22:13] Martin Popoff: They, they pick mostly the pretty, pretty much the heaviest material, and they've got crowds screaming throughout, and, uh, these songs just come alive. Um, you know, the, the name of the album is Alive! with an exclamation mark. And it just makes the band look really big. Um, Casablanca, everybody's rolling the dice, spending a lot on this packaging. [00:22:32] Martin Popoff: There's a lot of ads. You know, I remember there was always, um, promotion of, of the, uh, of the, uh, album. That, that album kicked off absolute mania for Kiss. [00:22:42] Dave Anthony: Next, the band creates a song that will take them to the top of the charts and attract an entirely new segment of fans. [00:22:57] Announcer: Want another peek behind the garage door? Check out [00:23:00] garagetostadiums.com for bonus content on each episode [00:23:08] Dave Anthony: We get to peak Kiss here with the next album, and your book chronicles that year, Kiss '76: 12 Months that Defined the Hottest Band in the Land. And in March of '76, the next album features Alice Cooper producer Bob Ezrin, who would go on to produce a ton of seminal works by the likes of Pink Floyd, Aerosmith, U2, Peter Gabriel, and even Taylor Swift, uh, Jay-Z. [00:23:34] Dave Anthony: The album contains hits, Shout It Out Loud. So I walk- [00:23:49] Dave Anthony: Detroit Rock City[00:24:00] [00:24:05] Dave Anthony: The song that crossed into mainstream radio formats best [00:24:09] : I think I hear them calling [00:24:22] Dave Anthony: I think Beth became the late '70s staple at high school dances. The album went to number 11, and Bob Ezrin came aboard. I mean, he was... That was kind of the Alice Cooper connection that you mentioned earlier. [00:24:36] Martin Popoff: Yeah, so for this record, um, we get the badass title, we get the badass album cover, illustrated, makes them look important. [00:24:44] Martin Popoff: The cover of Kiss Alive made them look important. They look, they absolutely look like superheroes at this point. It's a pinnacle, you know, the purple, the orange, the f- smoke and flames and all that. It, it's an, it's an amazing, uh, package, first of all. And so what happens is they bring in Bob Ezrin. [00:25:00] Bob Ezrin, he produces, he, he makes Alice Cooper into a star [00:25:16] Martin Popoff: He takes charge. It's super high fidelity and well-produced, so it sounds really, really good. It's their, Kiss' best produced album so far, just from a strictly fidelity point of view. Um, it's got all this cra- this great sort of, um, you know, spoken word and soundtrack-y bits and, and weird production and, uh, it's got some orchestration on it. [00:25:37] Martin Popoff: Um, it's got children's choir on it. Um, so, and he routines the band really hard, makes them work really hard. Um, he throws out a bunch of songs, um, and he's in on the credits and stuff. Um, you know, a lot of people thought they were trying to be too smarty-pants. They got some bad reviews, um, and, uh, I guess they must have had thin skin about it or, or [00:26:00] feeling a little bit of lack of confidence because they didn't have Bob Ezrin back for the next one. [00:26:04] Dave Anthony: Yeah, which I found interesting. Here's this album that was absolutely a destroyer in the market, was great, and then he doesn't get asked for the next one. And I found what's actually interesting is he was tearing apart songs, like you mentioned earlier, and the song that I guess you hate, but really broke them into mainstream radio and got a ton of female fans finally for the band, was that song Beth, which apparently Peter Criss wrote originally. [00:26:31] Dave Anthony: It was called Beck, uh, for a girl named Becky who was a girlfriend of a bandmate in a previous band. And Ezrin takes this song, which is a folk song, like [00:26:57] Dave Anthony: And he basically turns it into a piano ballad is [00:27:00] what you wrote in the book [00:27:13] Dave Anthony: Which I found very interesting. [00:27:15] Martin Popoff: Right. And, uh, and it was the B side, and it got flipped over, and then people started playing it sort of thing. So yeah, it's a, it's a very uncharacteristic song for them, and it, and it works out to be this, you know, Peter comes out from the drums, and there's, you know, people throw him roses and all this sort of stuff. [00:27:31] Martin Popoff: Um, you know, I, I don't think they, um... I don't think, I, I, I don't feel like, um, Bob Ezrin wasn't brought back because of Beth or that Kiss even hated the song Beth. I mean, they loved what it did for them business-wise. You know, the, on the next album, they were gonna give us Hard Luck Woman, uh, again, so they gave us a more of like an uptempo acoustic guitar ballad, but it was a ballad again. [00:27:56] Dave Anthony: The Rock and Roll Over, the next 76 album, which you [00:28:00] chronicle very well, listing all the tracks and going through the album in your book. November '76, you just mentioned it, Hard Luck Woman. [00:28:07] : If never I met you I never have seen you cry. If not for a first, hello, we'd [00:28:17] Dave Anthony: never- sung by Peter Criss. Calling Dr. [00:28:21] Dave Anthony: Love by Gene Simmons. This band is very versatile, as you said earlier. Several people capably take the lead vocals in the band, which is, it's rare that you'd have several lead vocalists that are capable. [00:28:37] Martin Popoff: But you're right. Um, a, a lot of the versatility comes in the fact that, uh, we've got Gene's very interesting voice with different gears, and you get a certain personality out of him. [00:28:47] Martin Popoff: You get Paul's very interesting voice with a lot of vocal fry. Actually, Ace and Peter both also have a lot of vocal fry. So you had four guys with interesting voices, and you had three good singers. A- Ace was probably the, [00:29:00] the weak link when it came to the singing. He wasn't very precise, and he didn't have a lot of confidence. [00:29:04] Martin Popoff: He gave it the old college try. But every single one of those guys in that band has an interesting voice, so that helped as well. And that, that possibly aligned them a little bit with, uh, the Beatles situation. It possibly aligned them a little bit with anybody who wanted to denigrate them as a boy band, uh, as did, uh, the idea of the characters. [00:29:24] Martin Popoff: Peter Criss always gets, uh, compared to Rod Stewart. He also has a really interesting, cool singing style. He seems to be able to do that thing effortlessly, and it's, uh, it's just really cool that he's just, you know, in quote marks, the drummer in the band. Um, so he's in there doing some vocals. He does Hard Luck Woman. [00:29:42] Dave Anthony: Interesting story about Hard Luck Woman was that Paul Stanley wrote that in the spirit of Maggie May and You Wear It Well songs by Rod Stewart, with the idea of pitching it to Rod. But Kiss decided to keep it and put raspy-voiced Peter Criss, who had a voice similar to Rod's, as you just said. You, you mention that in the book. [00:29:59] Martin Popoff: [00:30:00] You really get this, uh, this cool secret weapon in this band, that all four of them can sing. [00:30:05] Dave Anthony: Next, the band plans a marketing campaign that will ultimately become a massive money maker for decades to come. Do [00:30:18] Announcer: you love Rush, AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, and Fleetwood Mac? Listen to more Garage to Stadiums on all podcast streaming platforms. [00:30:29] Martin Popoff: As they move through 1976, what is happening is even though they're not going to be selling a, as many records as Frampton Comes Alive, or Fleetwood Mac, Fleetwood Mac, or Fleetwood Mac, Rumors, um, or Boston eventually is gonna take off in a huge way, um, they're s- they're selling tons and tons of tickets, they're on the covers of magazines, they're getting loads of press, every record's getting reviewed all over the place, they're in newspapers all the time. [00:30:56] Martin Popoff: A lot of that is the image, but they also, uh, you [00:31:00] know, pretty quickly ramp up the merchandising thing. So even though, even... It, it's almost like their, their weak point as they're moving through '76 and '77 and '78 is the record sales. Um, but when you take the entire business model all together, they're as big as all those other bands. [00:31:17] Dave Anthony: '76, '77, Martin, this is where everyone at school seemed to be turning up with Kiss lunchboxes, thermoses, T-shirts. This band was a pioneer in this department. How did they come up to this kind of strategy? 'Cause it was brilliant in capitalizing on the band and reinforcing their brand awareness. Major, you know, toys, including a Carmel, a Marvel comic book. [00:31:41] Dave Anthony: It's unbelievably brilliant to get to that same demographic. [00:31:45] Martin Popoff: I, I would credit Gene Simmons and Bill Aucoin the most. So the manager and, uh, and Gene, who was, who was always like a, like a big marketing guy and, and as we talked about earlier, you know, he's really coming from that love of, of comics. Kiss is just totally [00:32:00] made for it because, like I say, they absolutely pull off this look, they've got this great logo, the, the name of the band's only got four letters in it. [00:32:07] Martin Popoff: Um, you know, and they've got, uh, all this great album cover art to, uh, to capitalize on as well. Um, so yeah, you're right. It's, it's just a, it's just a, a perfect... And you know, it looked great on Halloween. What great Halloween costumes. Everybody, you know, from this era would go out once or twice or more times as Kiss characters o- on Halloween. [00:32:27] Martin Popoff: Um, all that TV stuff, they, they, it, you know, it quickly became obvious they looked great on TV. TV was appointment TV at this time. If you missed it, you didn't have that thing to talk about at school the next day, uh, with everybody else, and they just looked absolutely glorious in these costumes. [00:32:43] Dave Anthony: Mm-hmm. [00:32:44] Dave Anthony: The, uh, Love Gun album comes in '77. [00:32:59] Dave Anthony: It climbs to [00:33:00] number four, and it seems the brand is, uh, the brand building i- is really paying off with the album sales, 'cause it really doesn't have an obvious hit like some of the other albums. Would you say? [00:33:11] Martin Popoff: Yeah, it, it, that album just feels like, um, it feels like, uh, let's follow the formula of Rock and Roll Over again. [00:33:18] Martin Popoff: There's not, not a lot of major changes. Um, probably even the exact same number of, uh, songs on it. Um, roughly the same length. Uh, and then they keep busy again, and they put out, uh, Kiss Alive II. [00:33:30] : Right. [00:33:31] Martin Popoff: So they have two albums in '77, and Kiss Alive II is three sides live and one side studio. So they have one and a half studio albums in '77- Mm [00:33:40] Martin Popoff: and, uh, and, uh, I guess one and a half live albums in '77. [00:33:43] Dave Anthony: Shout It Out Loud was re-released as a single. This is the era where you start talking about, um, the classic, uh, jumping the shark, a la the famous Happy Days episode where the Fonz jumps a shark cage wearing a leather jacket while on water skis, of [00:34:00] all things. [00:34:00] Dave Anthony: And, uh, he, uh... They put out four solo albums simultaneously by all members on the same day. Um, as you wrote in your book, "An audacious move that turned into a debacle," wrote Martin Popoff. [00:34:15] Martin Popoff: I mean, they kind of jumped the shark four times. Um, they- Yeah ... they, well, actually- The m- Sorry, that's- Are you talking about the, [00:34:21] Dave Anthony: you're talking about the movie [00:34:23] Martin Popoff: I, well, okay, so they actually jumped the four, shark eight times. So the, so with the four studio albums, the movie, which I forgot about, thank you for reminding me, and with the disco song, and with the pop album, and with the, the concept album. Mm. So they're jumping, and, you know, arguably, the comic book, too. [00:34:44] : Yeah. [00:34:45] Martin Popoff: Um, so all of these things are things that are kind of gonna push the old school Kiss fan away a little bit, especially as, you know, there's always gonna be up-and-coming new bands. You've got the rise of the New Wave of British heavy metal, and I remember as kids, [00:35:00] you know, at that point, we were like, "Oh, yes, please, give us all these UK bands again. [00:35:04] Martin Popoff: This is awesome. Kiss who?" sort of thing. [00:35:07] Dave Anthony: Yeah, that made-for-TV superhero movie produced by Hanna-Barbera, it is awful. They've officially jumped the shark, I think. You said it. They, it was kind of a rip-off. It's called Phantom of the Park, I guess a Phantom of the Opera-like crash-and-burn exercise. Um, the, the, you, you, you, you mention a song here, I think it gets a lot of criticism, on the next album, Dynasty, released in '79. [00:35:31] Dave Anthony: It may have their biggest hit ever, I Was Made for Loving You. [00:35:46] Dave Anthony: What is it about this song that people say it has a disco flavor? Is it just the beat of the song? Like, what the heck? Why are people so critical of this thing? [00:35:54] Martin Popoff: Well, it definitely is a disco song, um, because of the beat [00:36:00] and the chorus, I would say, with the slightly falsetto-ish, I suppose you would call that, uh, sort of vocal. [00:36:05] Martin Popoff: The title, I Was Made For Loving You. Um, and, uh, but, you know, [00:36:11] Dave Anthony: I'm told- How come Mick [00:36:11] Martin Popoff: Jagger [00:36:12] Dave Anthony: can get away with falsetto, but, uh, Paul Stanley can't? [00:36:16] Martin Popoff: Yeah, yeah. I do like Mick Jagger's falsetto. I think that is pretty cool. Huge hit. That album goes plat- platinum. Um, and, uh, these days, you know, decades later, uh, it's considered Kiss' most famous song. [00:36:30] Dave Anthony: Next, the band realizes it needs something to regenerate their careers, and a surprising act takes place that will put them into the next generation, minus one of their famous trademarks. [00:36:49] Announcer: Do you love Bruce Springsteen, Fleetwood Mac, David Bowie, and The Who? Listen to more Garage to Stadiums on all podcast streaming platforms.[00:37:00] [00:37:00] Dave Anthony: We get to the point where the original four members are not getting along. Take us into the personalities of the band, starting with Gene and Paul, and then maybe Ace and Peter, 'cause we, we gotta get some clues here of the breakup from your perspective of their personalities of, of the guys. [00:37:16] Martin Popoff: Yeah, I think Gene and Paul are always the guys with their eye on the prize. [00:37:20] Martin Popoff: They're level-headed. They're willing to- Mm-hmm ... work, work hard and get this done. And, uh, Peter and Ace are the loose cannons, the drug and the drink, uh, the woman problems, all that stuff, crashing cars. Um, so, uh, so that's kinda what happens. There starts to be this divide. Um, you know, uh, I, I think, you know, I... [00:37:41] Martin Popoff: This isn't, this isn't a situation like Queen, where everybody is super enthusiastic about wanting to get their songs on the album and all being great writers. I think there's even some lazy- uh, and just these guys being together for so long and being so pressurized for so long, you know, uh, being super, [00:38:00] super busy. [00:38:00] Martin Popoff: Two records in '74, two in '76, sort of two in '77. Uh, four s- four, uh, solo albums all at once. So they, uh, uh, touring the entire time. So the pressure is just getting to them at this point, and, uh, and you're right, there's gonna be a fracture with Paul and Gene kinda keeping things, and then, uh, Ace and Peter dropping out. [00:38:20] Dave Anthony: The decision to take the makeup off, 1983, I think it was, they came out with, uh, Lick It Up, which, which became a... MTV helped make this album a success. What was the, what, what, what, were, were we just at the end of the line with the kabuki makeup, the, the, the comic book characters, we just got the end and they had to do something to keep the PR moving? [00:38:44] Dave Anthony: What, what was the real reason? [00:38:46] Martin Popoff: I think that's a great way to frame it. I mean, I can picture these guys all sitting around a table, um, and going, "Okay, we need a new idea. What's our next idea? Take the makeup off." Right? So, uh, so it's run its course. [00:39:00] Obviously, um, you know, whatever is not working for them, you can just [00:39:04] Dave Anthony: throw the [00:39:04] Martin Popoff: makeup [00:39:05] Dave Anthony: into the same [00:39:05] Martin Popoff: basket and [00:39:06] Dave Anthony: saying, "This isn't working for them," because nothing's working [00:39:08] Martin Popoff: for them. [00:39:09] Martin Popoff: So they do that, and, um, and incredibly, they're kind of like Johnny-on-the-spot for this, this new renaissance of heavy metal called hair metal. They're there in the ground zero year- Yeah ... along with, uh, Quiet Riot. You know, Twisted Sister's kind of in there at the same time. They're coming on, uh, right around this, this ground zero year. [00:39:29] Martin Popoff: And, uh, and, uh, they do well. Uh, they do well with it. They get a hit. Lick It Up is this insanely simple but hooky song. Daringly simple. [00:39:53] Martin Popoff: They, lo and behold, um, become what I consider pretty much the, uh, the [00:40:00] quintessential hair metal band. Uh, they're the most prolific. They, they, uh, they adopt the clothing to the most, like, uh, you know, cliche standard out of all the hair metal bands, as David Coverdale says, dressing like a Christmas tree. [00:40:14] Dave Anthony: Kiss starts to do that in this era, but you're right. They nailed that hair metal, and got some commercial success out of these albums from, you know, MTV exposure. It, it's incredible that they... Because no one, who the heck's buying Kiss lunchboxes at this point? That's way past. [00:40:29] Martin Popoff: Yeah, and, and I, I really applaud them for the fact that they packed a lunch and went to work and made a lot of records. [00:40:36] Martin Popoff: So they, they, they are in there, you know, neck and neck with all the young guys. They're getting some golds and platinums out of this, but there are other bands that are effortlessly gonna zoom way past them. Cinderella's gonna do way better, Poison's gonna do way better, Skid Row, Guns N' Roses.[00:41:00] [00:41:07] Martin Popoff: So there's a bunch of bands that, uh, that do better than Kiss who are, who are baby bands, you who grew up on Kiss. Uh, but still, I think, uh, Kiss is one of the bands... They're, they're one of the few bands that actually is there at the very beginning of hair metal doing well immediately, and they're there at the very end of hair metal still doing well. [00:41:29] Dave Anthony: '96, Kiss Unplugged, live performance for MTV, kind of, uh, Peter Criss and Ace Frehley come back and do some songs even on that show, but- [00:41:44] : Beth, I hear you calling, but I can't [00:41:49] : Boys are playing [00:41:53] Dave Anthony: That really sparks a little bit of a, a nostalgia for Kiss, and they embark on a massive reunion tour [00:42:00] with the original members, with the full makeup, and we're back to sort of, uh, I guess, the touring jukebox phase where Kiss is gonna go back and play the characters again. Is that correct? [00:42:11] Martin Popoff: Yeah, at this point it's kind of, uh, patchy. [00:42:14] Martin Popoff: Uh, we are now on our victory lap. But yeah, there is, there is this great nostalgia for them. They come back the, the same four guys. They, they still look great in the makeup, so that's cool. The Unplugged thing happens to be, um, you know, one of the hit albums of the Unplugged era. It's generally well-received. [00:42:32] Martin Popoff: You know, Paul's one of these guys who will repeat that interesting quote, I always like that quote that says, you know, "The mark of a good song is you can sit with an acoustic guitar and play it." [00:42:42] : Mm. [00:42:42] Martin Popoff: But we are, we are into the phase where, um, you know, it's, it's all about the merch, it's all about that victory lap, sell the tickets of the reunion band. [00:42:51] Dave Anthony: In 2014, Tom Morello inducts Kiss into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. 2025, Ace Frehley dies at age 74. [00:43:00] When history is told, Martin, of the music industry, what will they say about Kiss? [00:43:07] Martin Popoff: Well, I think the main thing we are going to remember really is, is that look, is the look of the band. Um, you know, the, y- you know, I think imprinted on, on our minds forever are literally, I think even if you're just a casual music fan, you know all four of those faces. [00:43:26] Martin Popoff: Um, you're not gonna forget those faces. But I think, uh, I think the best thing, uh, we can say about Kiss is that they absolutely raised the standard, uh, in a, in a really dramatic way for, uh, for what, you know, fans should expect from a live show. And after Kiss, uh, there will be non-makeup bands who don't even, you know, who would even poo-poo the fact of dressing up in, in, you know, particularly extravagantly, uh, for, to go on stage, who will have massive, [00:44:00] massive stage shows. [00:44:01] Martin Popoff: Mm-hmm. And then there will be bands that, that will take the, you know, what Kiss was doing to, to the next degrees, your Slipknots. [00:44:09] : Yeah. [00:44:10] Martin Popoff: Even your Mötley Crüe, you know, early on. Uh, your Marilyn Mansons. Um, so right across the board, even into new country and into pop, into Taylor Swift, I, I think, um, I think Kiss got that ball rolling probably in about, what would you say? [00:44:27] Martin Popoff: Late 1974, 1975. Yeah. I think they caused... They, it's almost as if, um, they caused, uh, the, the live, uh, you know- That's a good point ... the, the live end of the music industry to triple and quadruple in size. [00:44:45] Dave Anthony: Yeah. [00:44:46] Martin Popoff: I was thinking- Versus what it used to be technology-wise and the amount of trucks and people needed to pull off a stage show. [00:44:51] Dave Anthony: I think that's a really insightful comment. On our Alice Cooper episode, we talked about how Alice kind of paved the way for that [00:45:00] stage, you know, that Welcome to My Nightmare, that whole hanging and executions and all that horror stuff. And Kiss, I think, took that and turbocharged it and, as you said- Yeah [00:45:11] Dave Anthony: set the stage for what today is a common thing. These shows are extravagant productions, and Kiss certainly were pioneers in that. You're absolutely correct. [00:45:22] Martin Popoff: Yeah, it's like, it's like they forced everybody else to speed up their development- Yeah ... and, or to catch up with Kiss. I think the amount of, of money and, uh, creativity that they threw into their show caused music across the board- Mm [00:45:37] Martin Popoff: for everybody to step up their game. Yeah. And they would, and they would go in, into, into interviews and say as much, right? They would goad bands on and say, "Look, man, we're, we're entertaining. That band ain't entertaining, we are." Yeah. "Come see us." [00:45:50] Dave Anthony: Well, today we've had Martin Popoff back. He was on our AC/DC episode, and he has written, uh, about Kiss, Kiss at [00:46:00] 50 and Kiss 76: 12 Months That Defined the Hottest Band in the Land. [00:46:06] Dave Anthony: And Martin, we wanna thank you because you took us back, a lot of us, to, uh, our youth. And, uh, those mid-'70s, late-'70s periods when Kiss rocked and rolled all night. And then you showed us really how this band was savvy enough to kind of adapt and really play a role in another era, the hair metal era. And then they were savvy enough to go, "Hey, let's put the makeup back on and make some more money," and, uh, all the merchandising that goes with it. [00:46:32] Dave Anthony: So you've really illuminated us today on these guys, and we want to thank you for coming back. [00:46:36] Martin Popoff: Very cool. Thank you, Dave. [00:46:40] Dave Anthony: Formed in New York City in 1973, Kiss is one of the best-selling bands of all time. They are famous not only for their 100-plus million records sold in theatrics, but also for a massive portfolio of over 3,000 licensed merchandise items. [00:46:57] Dave Anthony: Kiss is well known for its merchandise, [00:47:00] as we discussed, and the band even launched a branded Kiss casket in the early 2000s as something that could be used at funerals. Notably, Pantera guitarist Darrell Abbott, known professionally as Dimebag Darrell, was buried in one at his own request. In 1977, Kiss became the first band since The Beatles to have four albums on the Billboard Hot 100 chart at the same time. [00:47:30] Dave Anthony: Their albums, Alive!, Destroyer, Rock and Roll Over, and The Originals. Incredibly, despite their massive cultural footprint and 30 gold records, Kiss has never scored a US number one single. Their highest charting single was the soft rock ballad Beth from Destroyer, which peaked at number seven. Co-founder of Kiss, Gene Simmons, has claimed to never, ever have consumed [00:48:00] drugs or alcohol through his entire rock and roll career. [00:48:04] Dave Anthony: Gene Simmons also had a career before Kiss. He originally studied education and wanted to be a rabbi. He worked as a sixth-grade teacher in Spanish Harlem before joining the band. Before landing on the band name Kiss, the band considered names like Albatross, The Crimson Harpoon, and even the F word, which was a favorite of Gene Simmons. [00:48:33] Dave Anthony: Although fairly protective of the Kiss brand, in 2012, the band embarked on a line of co-branded merchandise with fictional Japanese pussycat, Hello Kitty. There are T-shirts, mugs, vinyl figures, and badges depicting the cute white cartoon moggy in Kiss makeup, but the highlight of the range is surely the toilet paper, as tested by Mike Tyson at the product launch in Las [00:49:00] Vegas. [00:49:01] Dave Anthony: Gene Simmons discovered a famous band when they were an unknown bar band playing in California in 1976. Simmons saw the young unsigned band playing at the Starwood Club in West Hollywood and was blown away. The band, Van Halen. He flew the band to New York, put them up, and paid for them to record 15 tracks at the legendary Electric Lady Studios. [00:49:27] Dave Anthony: Simmons tried to get Kiss management and his bandmates on board to sign Van Halen. When they showed no interest, he tore up the management contract, telling the band they were free to seek a deal elsewhere. And shortly after, they were successfully signed by Warner Brothers Records and became a rock phenomenon. [00:49:47] Dave Anthony: Special thanks to our guest, Martin Popoff, author of Kiss '76: 12 Months That Defined the Hottest Band in the Land. For more on today's episode, visit garagetostadiums.com, where you'll find bonus [00:50:00] content on how Kiss borrowed glam rock spectacle while making it resonate with everyday American rock fans, with links to rare concert footage. [00:50:09] Dave Anthony: You can also find us on Instagram, X, and other social platforms for daily music history insights delivered straight to your feed. And follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube to stay up to date when our new episodes drop. Thanks to our production crew, Scott Campbell, Chad Raymond, Amelia Marianne, and Nigel Campbell. [00:50:29] Dave Anthony: I'm Dave Anthony. Thanks for listening. Join us next time for another Garage to Stadium story. [00:50:40] Announcer: Another Blast Furnace Labs production