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Lee Brainard: Key Biblical ‘Proofs’ For The Pre-Tribulation Rapture · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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Hey, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in. We've got author Lee Brainerd with us back with us
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I should say and we'll talk a little bit more about his book 10 potent proofs for the pre-tribulation
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Rapture. We're going to talk about some of the arguments you hear some of the discussions and the debates
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We're going to find out where they came from and how we can respond as believers and that's coming up next
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Welcome to World View Matters discussing controversial issues
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discerning current events
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Defending biblical Christianity no topic off limits and now here's your host David Fierazo
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Thank you family and Christ for growing this platform growing the show in the podcast
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It's getting out there. I'll tell you a little bit more about that halfway through but Lee Brainerd is back with us
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Brother is so good to see you. Thanks for your time
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Good to be with you again David. I enjoy being with the World View Matters program
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It's a great outreach for the truth of God. Yes praise God and speaking of truth
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Let's go to your website real quick, which is
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soothekeep soothkkep.info and right on the front page the pursuit
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defense and
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propagation of
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Truth as Jude writes earnestly
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Contend for the faith brother. Thank you for contending
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Thank you for the great writing and speaking that you do and that's why I was excited to have you back on and I'm
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Let me just give the audience the inside scoop here
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I saw Lee on prophecy watchers with Mondo Mondo Gonzalez has been on our podcast as well
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And you guys were talking about your book and I'm thinking that's great information as if I heard it for the first time
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But it reminded me of our
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When we had you on last I asked different questions slightly different questions than Mondo asked
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So there's so much more to talk about this when it comes to defending the pre Tribulation
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Rapture and we need to talk about some of those
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Arguments
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Against it Lee but before we get to that you are going to Ireland in a couple of weeks
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Are you excited you got a you're gonna do a conference and it's what peak Rcia
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Kurt Reed
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Troy Brewer and pastor Gary McKibben's church is hosting it
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We just had him on the podcast last week. So are you excited to go to Ireland?
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I'm absolutely excited
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But I'm not as much excited about going to Ireland as I am that I get to spend time with Kurt Reed
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And some of these other dear brothers Gary McKibben
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It's gonna be a joy ride in the faith as far as I'm concerned
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And I'm also looking forward to meeting believers there who have a hunger for the things that God
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So friends that website is victory church bell fast dot com they're hosting that conference over there
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Which I believe they are live streaming as well victory church bell fast dot com okay
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Also one more thing over on youtube you can check out leaves many many many videos and teachings at
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Seuth keep
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S O O T H K E E P and does it just mean truth fortress Lee it should us it's
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Old English sooth is truth and keep means fortress or dungeon
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Depending upon whether you're keeping people out or keeping people in
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So Lee um, let's get right into it now
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We were on before people can go to worldview matters dot tv
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And type in Lee
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Brainer and listen to our past
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Episodes with Lee because we've already touched on this book
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But it's so important and the topic is because we need to know where we're at when it comes to when we're out of here
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How it's all gonna happen. So that's the 10 potent proof see writes about in his book you can get that on amazon
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But Lee um, why talk about the rapture again? That's let's just start with that question
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Well
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Some people get frustrated because this topic of the rapture and prophecy comes up over and over and over again
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But there's a reason for it and there's it's really like a two-edged sword because on one edge of the sword
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The world has a need to hear that it is racing for judgment
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And the only way to escape this judgment is to believe the gospel and be born again
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And if you're born again the Lord is gonna remove you from the world before this tribulation comes upon the world
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This this is part of the promise of our redemption in Jesus Christ
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Now the other flip side of this is that we're we're trying to preach the truth of God which is the two-fold
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A gospel which has the payment for redemption and the reception of the redemption
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And there are people out there that say we don't want that second part
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We don't want prophecy
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So we have to bring this to their attention
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There's also people that oppose our understanding of prophecy and they say oh no the church is gonna go through the tribulation
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Or maybe they say oh no there's no such thing as a tribulation
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And they give us a preterist or an omelennial view or a post-millennial view
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And maybe people are thrown by those terms. I'll just quickly define them
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Omelennialism means you don't believe that the thousand-year kingdom mentioned in Revelation is to be taken literally
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You just make it figurative for the church age
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Preterism means you don't really believe that most of the prophecy in the Bible is actually prophecy
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You believe it most of it if not all of it was fulfilled in 80 70 when Jerusalem fell
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So the second coming of Jesus was the fall of Jerusalem if you're shaking your head over that
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join the club and
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Post-millennialism simply means that the church believes she has a commission to evangelize and convert the entire world
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And after the world is Christianized and the kingdom is established and running well
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Then the Lord Jesus comes down since thank you boys and takes the keys from them
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So you've got these big errors
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opposing
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dispensationalism and a pretrial rapture
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And you've also got people saying no we're going through the tribulation
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So we have an obligation to present Bible truth to defend
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The gospel and defend the deliverance of the church from the judgment to come
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So Lee what is one of the
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Reasons or arguments they give that would have them believe that
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We are kind of in control. It's not kind of up to us to get things already before Jesus can come back and
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That what you were just explaining how how do they defend that?
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Well, it's
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Primarily not a strict direct exegetical argument where they walk you to a passage and walk you through that passage
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Really what it is
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Is it's a lot of gaslighting and rhetoric that would
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Accused dispensationalists primarily like a pre-tribulationists
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Of being defeatists and and rejecting our obligation to take the gospel to the whole world
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So basically they'll go to gospel passages
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Which talk about taking the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth
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And talk about the gates of hell shall not prevail they take these gospel passages
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And they
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Extrapolate from them and stretch them to a place and a degree that's unjustified if you're going to be a whole Bible guy
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And that they really don't have a strong exegetical argument
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It's just pressing gospel passages to an extreme and then gaslighting those who disagree
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Okay, so let's talk about how in another scripture like in first Thessalonians 4
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When we're caught up I mean there's so many different
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I guess debates about what that means to be caught up with the Lord in the air
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That's the concept of the rapture and people have so many effort different interpretations of that
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Could you just share your thoughts on that for us and give us any clarity
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Yeah, absolutely now. I'm just going to turn real quick here to
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First Thessalonians chapter 4 and I just want to say
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Right out the gate before we look at a couple pieces of this passage
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That you know as well as I do that it says he's going to catch us up and take us to the clouds
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Folks, I want you to just say okay. I believe that
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You don't necessarily have to understand it. I mean if you don't understand it
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You don't understand how it fits just start with saying okay
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I believe that God said he's going to take us up gathers into clouds and we're going to be with the Lord Jesus forever
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If you will stand on that ground you are going in the right direction and things will fall together for you
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Now when we go to this passage
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We read in verse 13. I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning those who are asleep that you sorrow not even as those who have no hope
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For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so those who are asleep in Jesus will God bring with him
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For this we say to you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain onto the coming that is onto the
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Parusia of the Lord shall not proceed those who are sleeping and by the way those who are sleeping as figurative language
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It just means those that have already died and they're in their in the ground
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For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with the shout with the voice of the archangel with the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
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Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
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To meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord
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Wherefore comfort one another with these words
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Now there's I want you to look at what it's actually saying
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Because it says we're going to meet the Lord in the air and then we're going to be with him forever
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now
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A lot of people say well maybe they're just going to go up and come right back down
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folks
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Where's the comfort in this if we're going to go all the way through the tribulation all the way to the end and then go up and come right back down
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What consolation is there in that that's
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To me that makes no sense at all. That's like taking Noah in the ark all the way through the flood
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Then the the boat lands on Mount Ararat and then the Lord grabs Noah by the collar
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Yanks him up to the clouds toxin for five minutes drops him back down on earth
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And there's no rhyme or reason here
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So the encouragement that we have here is simply that the Lord is telling us
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You are not going to be going through the judgment
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You're going to meet me in the air. I'm going to remove you like I removed e-knot before the flood
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And you are going to be with me forever and this is exactly what we see in John 14 1 through 3
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Where the Lord says I'm going to prepare a place for you
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And where I am there that you may be with me yes
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So if the Lord went to heaven and he's building mansions in heaven and he's going to bring us to be with him
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We have to go to heaven
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So folks we are not going through the judgment
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We are going up away from the judgment to spend the time of tribulation in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ
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Training for reigning so we can return in revelation 19 writing those glorious white steeds from heaven
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It wouldn't be a comforting thought
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To consider going through judgment going through the great tribulation that would not be comforting
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I'm I too simplistic to look at verse 18 here Lee in 1st Thessalonians 4 where it says therefore comfort one another
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With these words
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This is how it's going to play out this is how it's going to happen am I too simplistic am I taking it too literally
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I don't think so this is childlike faith at the plain statements of scripture
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Amen
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You could not give a description of the saints going through the tribulation
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Through verses 13 through 17 and then have verse 18 say where for comfort one another with these words
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You're going to be running through the woods and hiding and running in the cities and hiding
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You'll be hiding in the sewers you're going to be hiding in the inner city and the ghettos
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You're going to be hiding amongst the drug culture trying to stay away from the Antichrist
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And where for comfort one another with these words
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Oh, by the way, you'll have to take the mark of the beast or you can't buy yourself, but comfort one another no
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The um
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There's not comfort for the church in that period. Yeah, absolutely not
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So
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Lee, let's go to now
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Why can't the church be here?
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During the tribulation and give us a verse and where we can go for that
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Sure, well, let me just start with the understanding
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That the Lord is going to return to the people in nation of Israel
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so
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Let me start by turning us to Daniel chapter 9
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verse 27 okay, or actually I'm going to go through verse 24 start starting there
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So Daniel chapter 9
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Starting in verse 24
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70 weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city
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Now this is Daniel folks where in the Old Testament folks were with Israel
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This means that your people is the nation of Israel and your holy city is Jerusalem
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And the 70 weeks are made to finish the transgression to make an end of sins to make reconciliation for iniquity
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This isn't making a payment for iniquity. This is making reconciliation for iniquity based on a payment
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To bring an everlasting righteousness to seal up vision and prophecy and to annoy the most holy place
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That which is the holy of holies
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Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem under Messiah
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The prince shall be seven weeks and three scoring two weeks
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The street shall be built again in the wall even in trouble sometimes after three scoring two weeks. That's
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62 plus
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Seven is 69 weeks the Messiah shall be cut off
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But not for himself in the people of prince that shall come
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Shall destroy the city in the sanctuary and the end thereof shall be with the flood and under the end of the war
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Desolations are determined and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week
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This is the 70th week and in the middle of the week he will cause sacrifice an oblation to cease that's offering
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And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate
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He even until the end and that that is determined upon him shall be poured upon the desolator
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So you got the 70 weeks the first 69 weeks were all Jewish it was
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Israel under the law not Israel saved by the law folks Israel under the law
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And Israel was the people of God
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Israel was the focus of the testimony
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So when we come to the 70th week at the end of the age
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Israel will again be under the law not saved by the law under the law
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Israel will be the testimony of God and the temple will once again be the temple of God now for this to be the temple of God
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You have to remove the church
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If you recall at the time of the cross
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Before God could start the church at Pentecost
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He had to rent the veil in a temple setting the temple aside setting Israel aside
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And then he could go start the spiritual temple because you can't have an earthly temple on earth and have a
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Spiritual temple on earth at the same time God cannot have two temples
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Now when we flip this if the Lord is going to go back to that earthly temple
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He has to remove the spiritual temple first. This is the rapture of the church
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So before the 70th week starts
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Which is God's purpose to deal with the Israel and give Israel a second chance to receive the Messiah that she rejected
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To receive the new covenant that she rejected
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Before he does that he's got to remove the church because he cannot have two recognized peoples on earth to recognize
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Uh
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Economies that earth on the same time can have two recognized temples on earth at the same time
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God is not schizophrenic and he doesn't want us to be schizophrenic either
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He's a one program at a time guy
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Amen
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Amen, and you talk about this in your book the ten potent proofs for the pre-tribulation rapture very brief pause
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We're with Lee Brandard on world view matters will be right back
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So Lee brainers it is our guest today his website soothekeep.info and you'll also find him over on YouTube
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So Lee I was just reading something where I might where am I on I was looking through
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The table of contents in your book and I want to just a few more moments here chapter five or proof five
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The church in heaven before the tribulation. That's what we were just talking about
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um
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I'd like you to talk about
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The 24 elders and why is that in argument for the church in heaven before the tribulation
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Yeah, I love this question because as far as I'm concerned the 24 elders if they're not the slam dunk argument in the new
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Testament for a pre tribulation rapture they belong on the short list
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It's a very powerful argument now some people say wait a minute
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It just says 24 elders where do you get the church and and there's 24 there's not 500 million or whatever the church is so
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Well, here's here's the issue
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first of all
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The 24 elders according to revelation five nine or blood bot
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That
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That means they can't be angels. So now we've just limited that they have to be human beings
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But we also see in this section in revelation four four that they are seated on thrones. This isn't chairs. This is thronus
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Uh, and they're wearing their reward crowns. They're Stefano's crowns
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so
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If they have their thrones and their crowns that means they are rewarded and if they're rewarded that means they've already been raised from the dead
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Nobody gets their rewards until the resurrection
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They also have their resurrection robes. We see that in four four. They're clothed in their white robes
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Now if you take all these things a consideration
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We've rejected the idea that they could be angels. They have to be human beings because they're bloodbought
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we've
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we
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Rejected the idea that they might be Old Testament Saints
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Because the Old Testament Saints have their reward and their resurrection at the second coming and we're long before the second coming here
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So the only other option left is New Testament Saints and they can't be New Testament Saints waiting for the resurrection
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Because they have their crowns and their thrones and their robes
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They're already raised from the dead now once we stand in this ground
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This is an amazing argument because here we have bloodbought believers in heaven
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Who are already rewarded which means they're already resurrected from the dead and we are before chapter six in the first seal
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So we are before the tribulation. We are before the Antichrist
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This is the rock of Gibraltar passage for the preacher rapture
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Wow, I'm glad I asked that question
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Ha
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So um, I saw you when you were talking with Mando um, and I don't remember exactly the points you were sharing
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but what would be one of the
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um, I guess most common
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Arguments against the pre-trib ratchet maybe are already shared at the at the very beginning
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Um of one of the views, but what would be the most common in your experience?
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Well, whether they're a pre-rath rapturous or whether they're a post tribulationist
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Um, and they're very close to the same the post triber says you're going to go through all seven years
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The pre-rath rapturous says you're going to go through six or six and a half years of the tribulation
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But they both go to Matthew 24 that is the
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Key argument for a post trip position. That's where everybody goes and
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It's soup at a superficial glance
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You can say okay. Yeah, I see saints going through the tribulation. I see
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Believers there. I see the elect there. Oh, that means the church must be there
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Well, hold on that can't mean
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The church has to be there because what do we see in the context? We see
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That God is obligating them to the Sabbath
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Pray that your flight be not in the Sabbath
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We see the temple in Jerusalem a physical temple on earth
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owned by God as the holy place
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That's impossible
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Either these is impossible if the church was on earth
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And we see that the command to flee is given to Jews who live in Judea
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And they're commanded to flee to the surrounding hills
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This command is not given to those that live in Montana or China or Russia or Brazil
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It's given to those that live in Judea
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So when we look at the context of the passage
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How can anyone conclude that this is proof that the church is in the tribulation?
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This is proof that Israel is in the tribulation. Yes
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What you have to find to prove the churches in the tribulation is you have to find a passage which doesn't use generic terms
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Like elect or believers you have to find a passage that either states that the church is in the tribulation
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Or you have to find a passage which describes believers
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Who have church age traits
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But that's not what we see every passage in the Bible
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Whether in the book of Revelation or whether in the Gospels
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That has believers in the tribulation shows us law
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observant Jews in the tribulation
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This is conclusive that that is a bad use of Matthew 24. Yes
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You know, thank you. I like the way you explain that. I hate to cut you off
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I just wanted to get to one more passage
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Briefly no and entire books and studies have been written about second Thessalonians chapter two and the man of lawlessness
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Much has been said and debated on this
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But I wanted just to to read part of it and let you just explain
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It talks about he's warning
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The Thessalonians not to be disturbed by a spirit or message or letter as if it's from us
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To the effect that the day of the Lord has come
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Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come
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Unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of destruction and then it goes on
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Can you share a little bit of insight on that why that's there's a lot the importance of the timing is in there
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The apostasy it has something to do with the man of lawlessness the temple and everything else
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Yeah, the difficulty we face with this passage is that people think that it's equating
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The rapture which we see in verse one with the day of the Lord in verses two in verse three
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Now if you do that then this context is saying hey don't let anyone deceive you
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Because you're not going to see the rapture until after the Antichrist comes
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This is where the post-tribbers and pre-Rathards go
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The problem is this is not what the passage says
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If anyone actually looks carefully at this passage using
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For instance the King James Bible nails it as far as the actual form of the argument
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With there we read now with besiege you brethren by notice a word by
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By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him in other words by the rapture
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Not I'm gonna paraphrase verse two
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Don't be worried about the day of the Lord
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Don't be worried that the day of the Lord is here
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Now oh the King James is at hand
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It really should be translated is here or is present the the verb here is anesthiken
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Which is the perfect of the verb anistemy and it means is present or is here
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The other versions like the ESV and NASB don't translate it is here or is present
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But they give us paraphrases that bring us to the same thing
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Because has come or has arrived is the direction that they go if it has arrived then it is here
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So once you understand this with this passage saying it's got three parts. It's just a Greek petition
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Has the verb of besieging it has the petition itself and then it has the reason for the petition
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Which is by the coming of our Lord that's a who pair clause in Greek
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So we besiege you brethren on account of or by the rapture not to worry that the day of the Lord is already here
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And then verse three says don't let anyone deceive you look around do you see the Antichrist no
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Well, if you don't see the Antichrist then you are not in the day of the Lord
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He is the preeminent sign of the dawning of the day of the Lord
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If you see the Antichrist you're in the day of the Lord if you don't see the Antichrist you are not in the day of the Lord
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And it doesn't matter how much persecution you're going under you are not in the day of the Lord
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You are not in the tribulation so folks were going up we're not going through
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Therefore comfort one another with these words and it's just so that you not be quickly shaken
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I hear these other words don't be deceived and my goodness friends
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There's so much that we need to reinforce as far as our
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Our beliefs our views here so we can respond to others in an intellectual way and from scripture and interpreting it rightly
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That's why we wanted to have you on and talk about this again
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Leave ranger thank you so much anything coming up other than your trip to Ireland real quick
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Well, we've got a conference in New Jersey at
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Keswick
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grounds that's beyond my website under upcoming events and I have some engagements in Florida in
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and
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March that'll also be on my events calendar awesome. Thanks for your time again brother. Good to see you
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Thank you
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God bless you friends and as always keep speaking the truth about things that matter