Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / Non-Death Loss: Naming the Grief You Didn't Know You Had 2|01
Transcript
- Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Lost Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: Let's dive back in to s back back Cassandra, LMHC: Back in. Let's do this thing. Daiana, LMHC: in to season two. I'm really happy. Cassandra, LMHC: Because I missed you and I missed this and Daiana, LMHC: I mess it now. Cassandra, LMHC: I missed our listeners and I missed all the things and I'm really, really glad to be here talking with you about grief, which is kind of a weird thing to be glad to be talking about, but I am, so Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: there's that. Daiana, LMHC: I I think that some moms can relate to work, being easier than raising our kids. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah, but also this is something that I do separate from other things in my life. Like this is something that I set aside. This is time. Like Daiana, LMHC: No. Cassandra, LMHC: as a individual, not even as a mom, as an individual that exists in the world that we exist in, sometimes like things move so quickly that it's hard to be willing to set aside any space. And this is space that I set aside and it's usually just you and I and our listeners and it's a good time. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Definitely. And it's something that we do that we're doing for fun. in the sense that we truly enjoy it. And it doesn't feel like work. But I summers are hard. Cassandra, LMHC: Yes, they are. I enjoy my children. I love my children very much. I appreciate them as as people and as as individuals and I also really love having a schedule. So summers are difficult because often there's lack of said set routines and schedules, so I have to make my own. Daiana, LMHC: Right. But y and I was thinking about that as you just said it, that you're making the schedule. So it it gives you more work to do, but then you have three other people that are not on your schedule, even when you try to get them on your schedule. I think that that was overwhelming for me too. well I know it is because it's like I can try to schedule the day or whatever, but each of them have their own little lives and their own little things that they care about and don't care about and it just felt like a lot. Cassandra, LMHC: It feels like herding cats sometimes, like trying Daiana, LMHC: K Cassandra, LMHC: to get everybody to do like the same thing at the same time. Even just getting out of the house in the morning is is an act of God most days. Daiana, LMHC: And you have a h a new high schooler, right? And that's one thing we have in common. Cassandra, LMHC: I do. And that was that was my favorite part about this summer was she was going to this one specific high school. Like that like all summer long we were prepping for this. We were getting school clothes, we were getting supplies, she went to orientation, she went to band camp, which she hated, but she still did it. And Daiana, LMHC: Did it? Cassandra, LMHC: then sh two days before school was supposed to start. She got invited to go to a different high school and was like, Yeah, I want to do that. So then we had to find out how to put together uniforms because this school takes uniforms and buy all new school supplies and all new things that she needed for this other school. And so even when I schedule and plan ahead and do the things, sometimes life just lifes and Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: it just kind of does what it wants to do. And For some reason, still takes me by surprise. Daiana, LMHC: That's funny how it does it does take us by surprise. But we've talked about this before is that assumptive world where we think we know, but we have no idea. And then something changes. You already probably saw her going to the school. You had the morning routine planned, you knew how she was getting to school, how the other two were getting to school, like you knew it, and then changing schools, it's like scratch that because this person affects that other person and this other little person. So it's like a complete do over. Cassandra, LMHC: Yep. The assumptive world sometimes gets me into trouble because I get so caught up on it and so hung up on this is what I'm doing. Like I love my calendar. It's my favorite little thing. I put everything on there. If you're not on my calendar, it's probably not gonna happen. Sometimes even if it is on my calendar, it still doesn't work out because then I double book myself and I forget that I have Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: these other things because I'm gonna be legit with you. I have three or four different calendars I have to keep track of. Daiana, LMHC: Well, I was about to say 'cause I saw you like writing like doing the sign like writing in your hand. I'm like, do you r actually write on a pen and you know, pen and paper or is it on the on your phone? Cassandra, LMHC: it's on my phone. This is my phone. This is me fussing with my phone. Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Okay. On your phone. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: Okay. And then the other calendars is like well you and I have a calendar now for the podcast, so Cassandra, LMHC: Which that calendar does not link up with my work calendar and I put everything on my work calendar. So if I forget something and it's on one but it's not on the other, then things get double booked and my assumptive world falls to pieces for a moment. For just the moment. And then Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, we have to figure that out. Shatters. Yeah. As you deserve, you're human. Cassandra, LMHC: yep. And then somehow we make it work anyway because again, as humans we've tend to rise to whatever occasion is handed to us and we find a way to make it through. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, as parents we do it because we have to. We have no choice like but to show up and and get it done. Sometimes that pressure, at least for me, ki gets me moving. Sometimes the more pressure I have, the the better I do. but it's exhausting. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, one nice thing about having a high schooler is I can put a little bit of the work back onto her. earlier this morning she texted me about Fridays and how something's shifting at her school and how she needs to be picked up from her school at this time. I was like, Then you need to reach out to these two other people and let them know because I can't. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Cassandra, LMHC: And she gets to figure it out. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, 'cause she will. She will. Even when they're little. Like my little one takes forever to get dressed. And as much as I want to dress him in the morning, I'm like, no, like he needs to figure it out. He needs to figure it out. He knows how to do it. You know, so so it's good to start him young too. Cassandra, LMHC: Though to be fair, if someone walked in and was like, All right, I'll get you dressed, you don't have to do anything, I'd be down with that. Daiana, LMHC: I know. I Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: know. I would love it too. Make my food, lay out my clothes. Do other things for me. Cassandra, LMHC: And just just do the things. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So go ahead. Cassandra, LMHC: No, I just thinking about today and and how we wanted to talk not only about this assumptive life that we all have, because that honestly ties into a lot of grief based things. Because when we're going through these grief moments in life, a lot of most often it shatters some version of an assumptive life that we've had. we have this idea that We'll work until we're 60, 65, then we'll retire and we'll be together and we'll do this and we'll do that and we'll have all the things. We'll get to do all the stuff that we always wanted to do. And then something changes that's outside of our control. Sometimes things change that are within our control. Like sometimes I schedule myself poorly, and then I get mad however it's scheduled. And I know that I've done it to myself. But a lot of times, especially in the grief world, it's a change that we wouldn't ask for. Daiana, LMHC: I think that that's the part that hurts is that we didn't ask for it and even if it's a job you don't like, if you get fired you're not gonna like it because that was not in your plans. So that makes it really really challenging. Cassandra, LMHC: The one time I got fired was from a job I did not care for and I was so embarrassed still that I got fired. I realized later why I got fired, and I think it was probably because it was pretty apparent I did not care for the job. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And I behaved as such, but I was still embarrassed and I still panicked for a little while until a friend of mine reminded me that thank goodness you have a full time job to fall back on, right? And I like, yeah, I do, don't I? And I was grateful for that, but even in that little moment I was just so in my feelings about it for so many different reasons that I couldn't see how things were gonna work out. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. I always love in in our lives when that person, random person, friend, coworker comes in and and sheds light, right? And it reminds you. and how you said like sometimes you don't even know like I don't even know why I got fired. we live and we learn, but those those moments really show us that our assumptive world is this world that we think is gonna happen and and it doesn't always. And like you said, I like that. But it sometimes we control it and it still changes. Cassandra, LMHC: And a lot of this goes back to those quiet losses that we've been talking about. The assumptive world, the loss of it, the changes, the things that we didn't ask for, they go back to those quiet losses. And that's kind of cool because today we're going back to the basics. We are gonna name losses that we passed it off as just life. And we can share those scenarios. Some well, we can share some of the scenarios of what that might even look like. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: So Daiana, LMHC: Season two mission is still the same to acknowledge grief that we minimize and that we don't give ourselves grace for. And a lot of times we're so hard on ourselves because we don't understand it. So naming those griefs, it's a start to to feeling better, to healing. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: And just like with my schedule, there's always more griefs than what we have time to name. There's always more things to do than what we have time to. But maybe we can do this on and off throughout the season, just every now and then kind of Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: quiz ourselves on what these different types of grief are. Because we might do a handful of them today, but there's all sorts of other ones that exist out there and deserve to be named because your grief is valid. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It is. It is. And we started off last season introducing ourselves. And then I know we have so many you listeners putting it out there into the universe, right? so I I think it's good that we just reintroduce ourselves a little bit and I wanted to play this game called high high well highs and lows and wait what? Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: For a minute I forgot that was the name of it. I was like, Do you not know what the next word is? I Daiana, LMHC: You're like, wait, what? Cassandra, LMHC: was terribly confused for a moment. Daiana, LMHC: Right. So I mean like that we can play that game throughout the season, but for this one it's we're not gonna think about this last week. It's just like we could just get to know each other, like the audience to get to know us a little better. And I learn new things about you all the time. So we can name a ha a high, a low, and wait what? Like I'm disoriented. What just happened? Cassandra, LMHC: So for me, let's see. It doesn't necessarily have to be like this last week, but it could be this summer. So high for the summer was I went to upstate New York to visit my family. We had a really great time. I know that in a previous episode we talked about a little bit about the grief that you happens after you leave, but it was cool because this is the second time this year I got to see them. So I didn't have that intense longing and loss when we left. I was able to reflect more back on just the joy that we all had being together. So Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that was really cool. Daiana, LMHC: wow. Cassandra, LMHC: Lo was I has there's been a number of losses this summer that I don't necessarily feel like getting into, but they have been rather impactful, not only to myself but to people around us. And I'm very grateful for this podcast because it helped me to show up more authentically for the people that needed me to show up authentically for them. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: in ways that I might not have before. So that was kind of bittersweet. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. I I I do well let's let going back to your high is that last season you talked that we have a whole episode about going back home and how hard that can be. Right. But because you you shared with us and we processed it together, now you went back and now you had a completely different experience. You were able to come back and and feel the joy and Yeah, just be happy about it and probably look forward to the next time or be more present, and have more gratitude. So that's a beautiful thing. Like that is in real time. If you haven't listened to the podcast, I I don't remember the title of it, but it's something about going back home. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And completely really if you listen to that one c listen to you now, it's completely different experience. So it's beautiful to see. And the low lows, or the low, it's you know We had we talked about this before, like earlier, is like, wow, I haven't we haven't been together in only six weeks and so much has happened. And there has been, I don't know what's going on with this year, but there has been s a lot lows, too many of them. So to have it to have it being around you too, this this is season one of the the the ones I want to talk about more is vicarious trauma or vicarious Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: grief, right? Like you're looking at people around you. suffering and that does take a toll and you do feel it, you experience it. And then because and this is I think this is why we love this podcast so much, because it's been helping us deal with life, because this is how we live. We live within grief, right? Ebbs and flows of grief. And almost daily we could experience these feelings or I would say daily have these these experiences. We're going to talk about chronic grief and this grief that you live with and sometimes that you feel it more intensely and sometimes you don't. Right. So these low, low, even though it's low, you did find that man, like it sucks that I have to be there for people in this way because you're going through that, but I was able to because of the conversations we've had here. That's a wonderful Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. And it was it was I was grateful for the opportunity to be able to do that with them and for them. And so Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I don't think I would have responded the same way a year ago. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. I believe it. I believe it. And before your wait what, so that we can end in in a in a nice go back to high, right? I'll share my my highs and lows. similar to you, I I went back up north and we did actually a road trip. Cassandra, LMHC: Move. Daiana, LMHC: which is a very long ride. So we stopped at North Carolina and we visited a cousin of mine. And she and I we're like kindred spirits as well. That and she is younger than me. I don't know if it's like nine years or something younger. So we've kind of missed each other in life because she we've always been in different stages. And she moved to Long Island and and whatever the case may be. And early in twenty twenty we kind of started talking more online and like and whatever the case may be. So since then we've made it a point to try to see each other. And luckily, you know, anytime I drive up or sometimes we've just gone to her, we have such a nice time. She has her and her husband and her two boys, and they're just the sweetest kids. And it's just nice to see them grow up and see their cousins. Like I think that was the bittersweet part that we had talked about too, is just like these cousins and aunts and uncles that we don't get to see all the time. So that was really lovely. And we always have a great time. We always have a great time with them. And then that almost like in that same trip was my lowest loaf of the summer, which was driving back to my dad's house, my parents' house, and my dad not being there. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: That was heart wrenching. That was like so hard. And something that not that made me feel better, but a realization I had. It was like, well, the first time is done. That's the first and last time I will ever have to go there the for the first time without my dad. You know what I mean? So Cassandra, LMHC: Such a great point. Daiana, LMHC: that was a relief to me. Like I will never have to feel this horrid experience I just had driving like the ten hours to get to his house and to my parents' house. so yeah, that if you've been thinking about that road trip, it's so draining, right? Because it's like fun and then more fun, and then it's like that dread to get there. And I was also thinking about I'm like, I'm like, my God, I can see so much why we avoid all this pain and all this grief. And a lot of people when they lose somebody they love, they don't want to go back to their house, they don't want to go back to their neighborhood. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: They they it's just like a lot of avoidance because you don't want to face all that pain. But in reality, we're in pain anyway. Like you're in pain anyway. And these are the scary parts. And I feel that it just helps with the healing as hard as it was. I mean, I don't I think it was, you know, nearly close to how it felt when he like just passed. Like it was that horrible. well Cassandra, LMHC: And that's anticipatory too. Like the whole ten hour drive, you knew where you were headed, you knew what Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: you were doing, you knew where you were going, and you knew that every smile you got closer you felt worse. Daiana, LMHC: I felt worse. Yeah. Yeah, that whole trip. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And then you did the hard thing. You did the thing you didn't want to do. Daiana, LMHC: And this is something that that again I wanna explore more is how to lean into all this grief. That this is you know, leaning into our our pain and our grief, we don't do it in vain. Like it's for a purpose. And it's and the more we avoid it, the worse we feel. So I do acknowledge how brave and how much like how much bravery and courage it takes to go back to a home where that person that you loved is not there anymore. So I did give, you know, give myself grace and credit and acknowledge myself because sometimes I can think like, Well, I know these things and whatever and then dismiss myself in that way. So I think that was my growth 'cause I mean, you know, that I didn't even realize as you were sharing. I'm like, yeah, like we there is this growth within us. And and this is honestly, I'm I'm so glad we're going through it. And I really hope that this is this is what I want the podcast to do for people. Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I have a friend actually who lost her her dog and she just happened to listen to our last like our season finale when we mentioned Adam and the dog grief or you know pet loss and she stopped the podcast and went back and listened to that one. And she said it was the mo like healing that she didn't know she needed. She didn't even realize that she didn't process the the the the death because life just keeps going. And that's the that's like the hard part for me and I think for everyone is that life keeps on going even though you're suffering, even though you're going through this. Yeah, and that was the one that you did solo with with Adam and she Absolutely. said that that it made such a difference and she felt so much better. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm so glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear like real time feedback that this is meaning something to people, that this is reaching people, because it means something to me and I'm fairly certain it means something to you. So it's great to know that being able to share Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: that with somebody else is meaningful to them as well. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. And and I'm just going to take this opportunity to invite you to subscribe so that you can get notified when there's a new episode so that you can be on this journey with us. We're here because we don't want to do this journey alone. We want to be in community and continue to grow. So subscribe and if any of this resonates with you today, share it with a friend. Now wait what? Cassandra, LMHC: Wait what how far back am I allowed to go for the wait what? Daiana, LMHC: Wait what? Could be absolutely random. That's exactly what it's for. It's could be absolutely random. It could be absolutely anything, trivial. Cassandra, LMHC: Okay, so you know that I used to teach, or I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: think you know that at least I got my undergrad in education, it was art education. I was able to do that just a little bit, but I've taught a number of other things as well. Such as there was two summers where I taught wood shop. So I got to be the one that was out there like cutting the wood, teaching the kids how to use the tools, had the best time. It was fantastic. And then there was the summer that I actually taught archery. I was an archery instructor, which does not mean I was good at it. It just means that I did it. And then when I lived in Ireland, I competed with their their collegiate team for archery. Still not good at it, but I had a great time. Daiana, LMHC: Isn't that funny how we have that skill, right? Like we can teach things. I think that's a total gift. That we can teach things that we don't really know well or not great at. yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, wait, well, I didn't know that. Cassandra, LMHC: So Daiana, LMHC: I didn't know that and I kinda wish I would have thought about this more because 'cause I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Cassandra, LMHC: I was like, What wait what's do I have? I was like, I got a few. Daiana, LMHC: let's see. Well, this is not a wait what for you because you already know this. But my dream was to be five four. I just wanted Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: to be five feet four inches tall. Cassandra, LMHC: And how high did you make it to? Daiana, LMHC: Five two. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm not just gonna put you in my pocket and carry you around. That's just gonna be the end of it. Like you can ride around in there. Daiana, LMHC: When you were doing all these things like all those things that you've done, I'm like, man, my dream when I was a kid Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: literally just to grow. I just wanted to grow. And now my eldest reached her peak at a whopping four feet eleven inches. Cassandra, LMHC: That's fantastic. I'm not even sure she can ride water slides. Daiana, LMHC: like, my god and and that also reminded me 'cause she was just telling me she's like, I just want to be five feet. I just want to make it to five feet. But during her physical this summer, the doctor was like, You've really plateaued. Like you haven't really So yeah. Wait, what? That's not a surprise. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm pretty sure my oldest I'm pretty sure my oldest has hit her highest, which is really, really bizarre because I'm five eight and my little brother's six foot five. Like I'm the short one in the family. And my ex, her father, is around six foot, his brother's around six foot, his sisters are around six foot. My daughter is like five two, and I think she's done. And I just think that's the funniest thing on the face of the planet. Again, pocket size. I could just put her in my little pocket and carry her around and then like, you know, have her do her thing. Daiana, LMHC: believe at eighth grade I stopped growing. Genetics are wild. Genetics are so wild. Cassandra, LMHC: Me too. It's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. Daiana, LMHC: Cause that must then go the lineage so far back you'd even remember like no one can even tell you a story about these people. 'Cause for her to be five two. my God. Cassandra, LMHC: plus she spends a lot of time in her bedroom. I think the lack of sunlight might have something to do with it. Daiana, LMHC: Lord Jesus. That's so funny. That's so funny. Well, there you go. So that was our high, lows and wait what? That was fun. Let's do it again. Cassandra, LMHC: We will do it again. yes, we will. Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Alrighty, guys. So we're gonna go now into the nooks and crannies of all of this. And in this episode, we're gonna talk about, well, let's let's say it this way, like ambiguous loss, disenfranchised grief, chronic sorrow. They all sound like heavy clinical terms. And what do they actually mean, really? Right? But more importantly, have you been living with them without even knowing it? I'm like I always still raise my hands and raise both hands. Sometimes you just don't know it 'cause you're in it. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. But like we always say, you can't hear heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So today, to help us out with being able to acknowledge these things, we're gonna play a little game. And I know that we've already played one game today, but this is our show and we're gonna do what we want. So Daiana, LMHC: That's for and this is for you. This is for you, the the listener to participate. So yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Well, there's also that. So this game low will help us put a name to everyday losses. So we'll look at real life scenarios, kinda figure out if we've been there ourselves, and talk about what shifts when we finally acknowledge them as grief. So when we finally let ourselves feel it and realize that that's what that was, that's why I couldn't Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: sleep. That's what that was, that's why I felt like my heart was racing at all times. That's what that was, why I just didn't want to do the thing anymore. Daiana, LMHC: All right. So we're gonna start with a scenario and we're gonna give you an option A, B or C, and give you a few seconds to think. And if you have been listening since season one, you have a leg up. I'm just saying. Cassandra, LMHC: And if you haven't, that's okay. We still love you. And feel free to go back and listen to the other ones. Mm hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Facts. Yes. Very good. Yeah. So all right, so scenario one. You have a best friend you used to talk to every single day. Over the last year, they moved, got busy, and now you barely even text. Nobody died. There was no big falling out, but your heart physically aches when you see them post online. What grief is this? Which grief is this? A Anticipatory grief, B ambiguous loss, or C secondary loss. Cassandra, LMHC: So I think we already talked a little bit about anticipatory grief above like before early, not above. Daiana, LMHC: Why are you giving them hints? You're so nice. Cassandra, LMHC: No, maybe. Maybe. Daiana, LMHC: When we were putting this together, I was telling Cassandra how this felt like w the test that we took to get her license. But the scenarios are much longer. Cassandra, LMHC: 'Cause it's not this, but it could be this, but it feels a little bit like that. But we already kind of told Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: you what anticipatory grief is, just to say. Daiana, LMHC: Uh-huh. Yeah. That is so true. And and in these tests they do have answers, multiple answers that could still be the answer, but which one is the best answer? Right? Just give me Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. 'Cause you have to pick the best answer. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. All right. So dun dun dun What's the answer, Cassandra? Cassandra, LMHC: It is ambiguous loss question or answer B. This is Daiana, LMHC: Yes, please. Cassandra, LMHC: the loss that lacks clarity or closure. So you were friends with this person and then you just kind of drifted apart and you don't know what happened and there wasn't a death, but they still exist out there in the world, they just don't exist in your world. That would be ambiguous loss. Daiana, LMHC: It's all confusing 'cause you're like, but we didn't even have a fight, like, what happened? So it leaves you feeling so uneasy. All right, I hope you got that right. Cassandra, LMHC: I hope so too, 'cause we talk a lot about ambiguous loss. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, sure do I do. Cassandra, LMHC: So the second scenario is your partner is diagnosed with a chronic progressive illness. You're both in your forties, juggling school aged kids, your careers, and just trying to keep the household running. You're sitting on the couch together after the house is finally quiet watching a show, but you are suddenly hit with this overwhelming sinking sadness. You start mentally scrolling through the next 20 years. How this change is raising your change. How this changes raising your family or the retirement you had mapped out. Which kind of grief is it? Is it A anticipatory grief? B ambiguous loss, which we just talked about, or C, no I'm not giving answers, identity loss. Daiana, LMHC: All right. Cassandra, LMHC: So what are your thoughts, Daiana? Without reading the the answer key that we have printed out. Daiana, LMHC: Well, without reading the answer, I was just thinking about dang, all the things that we do in our forties, and then life does throw wrenches. Like life is hard enough juggling school age kids and work and household and all of that. And then how devastating is to watch other things happen, like a chronic illness. So that's rough. And then you're sitting there thinking Talking about the the assumptive world. That's gone. So and now you're starting to think ahead think ahead, hint hint, to everything. Cassandra, LMHC: So who's the nice one now? Ugh. What too nice. Daiana, LMHC: Ugh, we're just too like too nice. yeah, so we're just anticipating all of this, that now everything is just unknown. And the answer is A, anticipatory grief. When a diagnosis hits in midlife, right when you feel like you're supposed to be hitting a stride, it completely derails that blueprint. That anticipatory grief is when your brain starts warning the normal. Right, the normal future you assumed you'd had, and you're bracing yourself with what's coming. Right. Even though while your partner is sitting right next to you holding your hand. Cassandra, LMHC: I remember having that with my dog, like when I first got her, like fifteen years ago. And she was so cute and she was young and I realized like one day she's gonna be gone. And I was so sad for a while. And then I just realized that in this moment this is what I had. And so I had to embrace what I had and what the reality was. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and experiencing one grief can also trigger anticipatory grief. Cause when something goes wrong, and I'm sure peop you know, you guys we have all felt like when is the next shoe gonna drop, right? Like I've been experiencing a lot of anticipatory grief and it's just like this background noise of, you know, when my when my it when my mom passes, like what if I pass before my kids and what if han like I he I think about all of these things and it's so it's not conscious as it's just like it's like those intrusive thoughts. Some you know, when you're anticipating things going wrong because you're going through it in real time. Right. So Cassandra, LMHC: Because you have like that assumptive world. Like my Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: assumption is that I will live long enough to see my kids at least get past the age of eighteen Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: and hopefully be financially stable and dependent before something happens. But Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: I know that's not necessarily how it's gonna go. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. And we can't live in fear because that's how we become agoraphobic, right? Like we're not gonna wanna leave our house if we live in this anticipatory grief all the time. Because there's also the other side that it might not even happen. And most of the time it doesn't. Cassandra, LMHC: It's true. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. So this summer I had been looking for books on non-death grief, right? Right, grief outside of death. And there were there were some. I was pleasantly surprised that there was a good handful. and I'm searching for for more, but one that stood out to me was this one, How Will I Ever Get Through This? Evidence-based tools to help you heal from hardship, grief, and loss by Dr. Lucy Hone. And I'll put this book on the show notes and her Instagram. and Cassandra and I are reading this together. We just started. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: but right in chapter two, she goes into some scenarios and I wanted to share them because they were just so good. All right, so Alright, so this is Diane's story from this book. For Diane, it wasn't just one event, but an avalanche. A home invasion drove her and her husband from their community of decades. Shortly after he passed away, leaving her to navigate a new life in a new town with no family to lean on. Her siblings and parents, for some reason, she still struggles to understand. Shut her out. To lose everything that was comfortable and known to me is such a kick in the gut, Diane says, right? Sometimes it feels like I've been picked up and transported to another realm. Things don't feel quite real, she told me. How did everything change so fast? Cassandra, LMHC: Hmm. So there's a lot that goes into that. There's a whole Daiana, LMHC: Punching the Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: lot that goes into that because everything was lost. Like there's the grief about losing the family, her the grief about having her home invaded, the grief about losing her husband and her community, and Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: feeling left alone in the world. There there's such overwhelming grief there. So we could either A is it delayed grief? B, is it secondary loss? Or C is it cumulative grief as all of her Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: troubles accumulate? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it was an avalanche. Right? Everything came down on her. you know, something that stands out for me here, when it talks about grief, and I think it's familiar in all grief right at the beginning, is feeling like you're in a different realm. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Because if that map is gone, I don't I don't know if if we have talked about the I know you have, but I don't know if the listeners have seen the good place. Right. There is this void that one of the characters goes to and it's completely white. And it's this this void that it's like nothingness. And then she could come back into, you know, the place that that she is. And that's how it feels like. That's what grief and especially in the beginning feels like. It's like you're in this different realm. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: So with all that said, the answer is cumulative grief. It's grief overload. It's multiple losses occurring in close succession without adequate time to process the previous one. Cassandra, LMHC: That's a lot. Daiana, LMHC: That's a lot. Yeah. And and unfortunately things happen in that way. Right? It's just like you haven't even caught catch your breath when something else happens. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Now, this book is really intriguing because it does have a lot of different examples and different things that you can apply to your everyday life. But there is a second story in chapter two that we've really found interesting. we meet Jo. Jo's body let her down in ways she couldn't have imagined. Once a runner who thrived on movement, Joe contracted long COVID, which left her unable to walk around the block. I pushed through at first, thinking I could fight my way back to normal, she says, but when even simple tasks and work became impossible, and she could no longer remember how to drive, she was left asking, Why did this happen to me? Daiana, LMHC: No. Cassandra, LMHC: So would this be complicated grief? Could it be ambiguous loss, which we've already talked about a book? Or Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: could this be identity loss? Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Man, that question, right? Why did it happen to me? That's a question that comes up a lot in grief too. Cassandra, LMHC: yeah. And that one's really hard to process 'cause there's never really an answer. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That question could lead you to a c another question, is like, who am I now that this happened? I'm not the Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: person I was before. Hintant. Cassandra, LMHC: Hint hint. So what you're saying is it's complicated grief? Daiana, LMHC: Adjacent. Right? Because Cassandra, LMHC: Adjacent. Daiana, LMHC: it is complicated. All right. So the answer is identity loss, mourning intangible losses such as an imagined future. physical mobility, autonomy, faith, safety after trauma, or role transitions. Right. So and I like that you said that you know, complicated grief and ambiguous. Like that all of these types of grief t tend to blend. Or there in one event there are secondary grief that that comes along with it. So It is not so clear cut and it is true, like that the tests that we take are like this, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: right? Because there isn't always a definitive answer. It depends on the person and how they're experiencing. A person might not even care about the ident their identity or they still feel like they're they are still the same person, but they're thinking about other things that they're they're losing because of this change or because of this loss. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Right. So all righty. So that was fun. I think that we can continue doing this, right? To Cassandra, LMHC: I do enjoy that. That was a lot of fun. Daiana, LMHC: give us a little you know, flashback to to grinding for that test, but I think this will desensitize us. Cassandra, LMHC: Little bit of trauma. A little bit of trauma. Daiana, LMHC: Right. That was rough. All right. So to wrap up today, we're gonna move on to our favorite segment, Living Loss Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: So this is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift. Because it's not about fixing grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: So Cassandra, looking back at everything we've talked about today, the different types of grief, everything, even the things that that we've shared about each other and our summers and all of that, what lesson would you like to leave our listeners with today? Cassandra, LMHC: Think there were two. The first one is about the the assumptive future. That one really hits me because, like I said earlier, I l lived by my calendar. Even in my previous career, everybody knew that if it wasn't on my calendar, I wasn't showing up. So I missed a a very important meeting and someone was like, Did you not put it on your calendar? I was like, No, you left me out of the group chat. Like I didn't know about the meeting because it would have gone on my calendar. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: This also gives me the illusion that I have some sort of control. I have this illusion that moving forward, I know what's about to happen and I know what comes next because it's my design. But unfortunately, that's not the way it works. And so being able to move into a place of acceptance when things change is a really powerful tool that I have to practice very hard at. because I don't really have any other option. I'm not fully in control of what happens from the day to day. honestly, I'm not really in control at all. But I do like to hold on to this this vague idea that I am. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And I need to understand that when things don't go the way I think they should, it's not because of anything that I've done. So there's that. And then the other one that I was thinking about was no matter how much I wish or hope or pray or light candles or wish upon stars, I'm only ever gonna be as tall as I am born to be. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, and we are enough. Cassandra, LMHC: There is always enough. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Own your tallness and and never scout scoot down with one of my pet peeves. Never scoot Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: down to take a picture with me. Cassandra, LMHC: I don't, honestly. I just I'm like, we'll do it from above. Daiana, LMHC: No, just stand. Just stand up, bro. Yes, love it. living Loss lesson for me in this season within this conversation, and my hope for everyone listening is to have the courage or trust that leaning into your grief, acknowledging it. It is feels bad, I'm not gonna lie, it doesn't feel great, but it gives you the opportunity to get to the other side. Right. Without acknowledging it, without going through, without feeling it. the choice is just to stay miserable and to stay sad and and to not, you know, and black bla black out all the good things. Right. So I think that that's what I would like to leave you with today. that you see your own grief, that you acknowledge your own grief from the episodes that you listen to. And if someone you know, because this is a thing, that we see it in other people, we give other people more empathy and grace, right? So if you have a friend, family, coworker that you see that they're going through something and they're not acknowledging it. Send them the episode. Send them the podcast. Thank you, Cassandra, best co-host. Cassandra, LMHC: no, thank you, darling. Daiana, LMHC: And thank you to our listeners. We're so glad to be back. Thank you for spending this time with us. Hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapist, and this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you would like to speak to somebody, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: We'll catch you next week on The Living Loss.