Latest / Buying Local Podcast / Episode 19: Ray Apy (Saratoga Biochar Solutions)

Transcript

Episode 19: Ray Apy (Saratoga Biochar Solutions) · Buying Local Podcast

0:07
Welcome to buying local. I am Mike Nelson, your host here
0:12
with a guest today. Talk about some new happenings
0:16
in the, the local markets, that seems to be some confusion, some
0:20
controversy. And, you know, seems like we're
0:22
just trying to all get to the bottom of what's going on.
0:26
Very easy. These days on the internet too.
0:29
Find all sorts of information about pretty much any subject.
0:32
So sometimes hearing it straight from the horse's mouth as they
0:36
say, right? Is the the best way to do that.
0:39
So I'm here today with re Happy from Saratoga biochar Solutions,
0:45
right? Thanks for joining us.
0:46
Thanks for having me. Yeah, no I you know again I
0:49
we've talked about this, you know, obviously our team here at
0:55
spa city has done some work with you guys.
0:57
We help you build a website. We've done a little Video
0:59
production and and really, you know, there's just so much
1:03
information out there. And so I know I even having a
1:07
relationship with you and just a little confused about a lot of
1:10
the things that I keep saying what seeing whether it's on
1:13
Facebook or you know, and countless news articles that
1:17
we've been seeing come through local Publications.
1:20
And I think there might have been something on the news,
1:23
television news. And so and none of it all seems
1:27
to kind of line up with each other and So again, I'm
1:30
confused, it's and I know that there's a lot of people out
1:33
there in the local communities are are confused as well.
1:36
You have a kind of a Q&A session coming up.
1:40
I believe on Monday the 19th is that right?
1:43
That's correct. Okay, so to kind of help I think
1:47
too. I don't know what the word is to
1:51
kind of clarify guess, maybe to try to you know, bring a little
1:54
light to the subject with all the confusion out.
1:57
There's and we're hoping to kind of talk about some of that stuff
2:00
today as well. So maybe, you know, before we
2:03
get started for anybody, that's not aware of what the project
2:06
is, maybe just kind of give us a rundown about, you know, who you
2:09
are, and what Saratoga biochars is trying to do?
2:13
Sure, thanks Mike. So just backing up one step.
2:16
The meeting that you reference that's coming up on Monday
2:19
night, a night, that's It's a public participation
2:21
informational meeting in the intent is to provide information
2:26
for not only Moreau. The town of which the project
2:28
would be located before the surrounding communities, so that
2:31
people can understand what we've proposed to do, where we are in
2:34
the process specifically, where we are in the New York State DEC
2:37
permitting process. Give them a chance to offer
2:42
comments, ask questions. Give us a chance to respond.
2:45
It'll be a to our virtual meeting and we're hoping it's
2:48
productive. So that's that.
2:50
A little bit of background on me.
2:51
I've worked in the upstate New York area, my entire
2:54
professional career. I previously ran a technology
2:57
company called a nice & Associates which I sold in 2017.
3:01
And after that, went back to my roots, which is an environmental
3:04
science, that's what I was educated in an undergrad and
3:08
graduate school and partnered up with a couple of guys who had a
3:13
shared interest in taking a valuable waste product, and
3:17
cleaning it, and converting it into a valuable fertilizer.
3:20
Sir product. And so, we created a company
3:23
called Northeastern bar chart Solutions which has a subsidiary
3:26
company, Saratoga bachar, which is our first project company,
3:30
and we proceeded to file a site plan application in the summer
3:35
of 2021. With the town of Monroe to cite
3:38
our first facility in their Industrial Park.
3:40
The reception initially was was positive.
3:43
The review process took 13 months, formally about 16
3:47
months, including some pre pre. Asian work and we received a
3:52
site plan approval, in August of this year to cite that project
3:56
in the more industrial park that approval had 16 fairly
3:59
stringent, conditions related to human health.
4:03
Environmental safety and nuisance, you know, relative to
4:07
the potential for odors or noise.
4:09
So the town did a really nice job.
4:10
I think in reviewing the project in detail, putting forth
4:16
conditions with their approval which protect their community so
4:19
that's where we are. Now, we've completed that step
4:21
we're in the middle of the dec, permitting, step and public
4:25
participation is part of that process.
4:27
And that's what's happening now, okay.
4:29
Alright. And so, you know, again, there's
4:33
a lot of information out there and I don't know how many
4:36
articles I think I've read at this point.
4:38
I know that, you know, we've written a few as well and I'm
4:44
just trying to understand like where is all the confusion come
4:46
from you know, like is there is there?
4:50
Let's say a source but like I, you know, there's just so much
4:53
information on the internet. I know at one point in time,
4:55
there was a comparison to like the situation that happened up
5:01
in Maine with, you know, there was like, so I think I'm not
5:04
even sure of the situation was like they're spreading sewage on
5:07
fields and I know what I'm talking about.
5:10
I could tell you exactly what happened to mean, in summary in
5:14
Maine. There was a an organic dairy
5:17
farm that was receiving biosolids from A local Regional
5:21
sewage treatment plant that those biosolids contained,
5:25
elevated levels of pfos, pfas compounds.
5:29
And the reason that they did is because within that Watershed
5:32
was a manufacturing company that was using extremely high levels
5:35
of pfos in products that were actually used for human food
5:38
consumption. So plates and cups and stuff
5:40
like that. That's great.
5:41
Yeah, that's in. That was the source.
5:43
And so they were using so much. They were actually releasing a,
5:46
quite a lot of it, in their Wastewater, which went to the
5:48
wastewater treatment plant, which It up in the bio solids,
5:51
which were then taken out and spread on, on crop land.
5:55
So that that created elevated levels of pfos, in the, in the
5:59
grass that the cows Aid and and then in the cows.
6:02
So, you know, that's and that's a terrible outcome and that
6:05
shouldn't happen. That's one of the one of the
6:06
many reasons why were opposed to the continued practice of using
6:11
biosolids directly as fertilizer without further treatment.
6:14
So currently in 44, out of 50 states is legal to use bio
6:18
solids as a fertilizer. Are those biosolids are treated
6:21
at the wastewater treatment, plant to Great the biosolids.
6:24
I won't get into the details of how that works unless you want
6:26
to. But additionally, biosolids are
6:29
then typically composted lime is added, and they're basically
6:33
allowed to rot long enough, so that the pathogens work, their
6:36
way out of through the natural decomposition process and then
6:38
they're considered quote, unquote class a bio solids, and
6:42
then they're used on for agricultural.
6:44
Fertilizer. So, that's what happened in
6:46
Maine. So, And I know that I read it
6:51
somewhere, but there's there continues to be a parallel drawn
6:54
between what happened in Maine. And what you're trying to
6:57
accomplish here can and help me understand, you know, because
7:01
again I'm just a podcast host, right?
7:04
Like what is, what's the difference between what they did
7:07
and what you're doing? Yeah, it's interesting that
7:09
people are trying to draw a parallel.
7:11
Could because there is none there, what occurred in Maine
7:14
and and situation, similar to that are the primary reason why
7:18
we've developed this technology. Ecology to take these biosolids
7:21
materials, add a tremendous additional treatment step to
7:25
decontaminate them from the kind of materials that, you know,
7:28
that cause problems in Maine pfos, particularly, as well as
7:31
other volatile organic compounds that come from Pharmaceuticals.
7:35
Everything that goes down the drain the toilet, the the the
7:39
car wash at cetera. So we've developed a process to
7:42
decontaminate those materials, and actually totally convert
7:46
biosolids, to something else to carbon fertilizer, our end
7:49
product to be Clear is not bio solid.
7:51
It is no longer biosolids. It's completely different.
7:53
It's been entirely. Altered.
7:56
Decontaminated in the remaining material is 30%. 32, 32 percent
8:01
carbon in the balance of the material is macro and
8:03
micronutrients that are free of those contaminants that are
8:07
human and health human health and environmental concerns.
8:11
So if I understand that correctly, what I hear you
8:15
saying is that you're taking the biosolids And pulling all the
8:22
bad stuff out. Leaving the good stuff, man.
8:23
I mean, I, you know, I live on a small farm, we have animals.
8:26
We use the animal waste, you know, to help grow food because
8:32
it's full of nutrients that the ground likes in the plants.
8:35
Like so it are you basically creating a, you know, a waste
8:40
product. So to speak, that becomes
8:41
something that can be used, right?
8:43
Is that, is that the end goal is that we're pulling all the bad
8:47
stuff out. You're leaving the good stuff
8:48
behind And that's a great, was, simple way to put it?
8:50
We're pulling the bad stuff out. Saving the good stuff, the good
8:54
stuff that comes out as it's dry.
8:55
It's very stable. It has all kinds of benefits to
8:59
the environment. It's sequester's are tremendous
9:01
amount of fixed carbon back into our agricultural soils.
9:06
I could go on and on, but just very briefly, especially in the
9:09
realm of industrial-grade, Agriculture, and crop production
9:14
in North America and throughout the developed World, we've been
9:17
pulling carbon and It's out of our fertile soils to grow crops
9:22
for human consumption directly for animal consumption.
9:26
And for the most part, particularly with human
9:29
consumption, the waste material that comes from the human
9:31
population, does not go back to the agricultural Fields where it
9:36
came from. It goes into little holes in the
9:38
ground called landfills or it goes to incinerators and gets
9:40
burned. Directly the solids, get burned
9:43
and pushed up into the atmosphere with some levels of
9:46
are cleaning and then there are other avenues.
9:48
Canoes to. So one of the things we just
9:50
talked about was direct agricultural, land application
9:53
of biosolids. So those are kind of the outlets
9:56
for that that material. Today, we do something
9:59
completely different with it. We do exactly what you said, we
10:03
take the bad stuff out and treat those materials.
10:05
Dry them. Create a very stable carbon
10:09
fertilizer product that's loaded with macro and micronutrients
10:11
and use that safely as a fertilizer.
10:13
And so that takes that material and and puts it into a format.
10:18
At that's a tremendous beneficial use for society.
10:23
So, If we're taking the bad stuff out and we're leaving the
10:29
good stuff behind right to be used, where's the bad stuff go?
10:34
Well, the volatile organic compounds, and organofluorine is
10:37
like, pfos is simply get broken apart?
10:39
Literally broken apart through thermal process.
10:42
So we have a multi-stage treatment system and I'll
10:46
describe that really briefly the biosolids come in there mixed
10:49
with clean waste wood. We mix in a little wood.
10:53
It allows us to buffer moisture But it also adds a little energy
10:57
into the mix and a little additional carbon.
11:00
So we will add about 10% would waste into the biosolids.
11:04
That gets mixed to provide a proper or a feedstock that that
11:09
is continuous feed and and has continuity.
11:12
In other words, it's, you know, uniform and that goes first into
11:16
a dryer and that dryer is simply a large rotary drum, which gets
11:21
a lot of hot air pushed through it and heat under it.
11:25
And that simply takes The moisture out of the mix
11:28
biosolids in wood. So when the biosolids come in
11:31
the moisture, contents around 75%, when they come out, the
11:34
other end of that dryer with the mixed wood, it's going to be
11:37
down to about five percent moisture content.
11:39
So, at that point, it's quite dry.
11:41
And from there, it goes into a pyrolysis kiln, which is
11:44
basically another big rotary drum device with a lot of heat.
11:48
So it's much hotter than the dryer.
11:50
And in that pyrolysis, Kiln, that's where we're actually
11:52
separating. The Unwanted volatile organic.
11:56
Compounds in Organo fluorines like pfos out of the solid.
11:59
So there were separating solids from gases in the gases contain
12:03
The Unwanted contaminants, right?
12:06
And so those gases also contain what I call an aerosolized oil,
12:10
it is there is an oil mixed in with the gases but it's
12:13
aerosolized and so that mixed gas near aslized oil gets pushed
12:18
immediately into a thermal oxidizer which again Heats it to
12:24
even higher temperature. So in The pyrolysis Killing,
12:27
we're operating just over 1,000 degrees.
12:29
And then those gases are pushed up into a thermal oxidizer,
12:33
which the first stage of which operates at 2300 degrees, Which
12:37
is higher than we had originally intended, and we can talk about
12:41
the manufacturing reasons for that, but we've been able to
12:43
secure guarantee from the thermal oxidizer, manufacturer
12:46
to remove pfos. If we operate the first stage at
12:49
2300 degrees Fahrenheit. So that's what we're going to
12:52
do. Let me, so let me ask this.
12:54
So, The first stage. Right?
12:58
So the whole process from what you're saying is first, you dry
13:01
it, mmm, which means that there's water coming out of it,
13:05
I was sick, right? Where does the water go out the
13:08
stack out the stack? So it's yeah.
13:11
The the emissions from the plant will contain quite a lot of just
13:14
h2o at a matter of fact, if you're driving by and weird to
13:16
see our mission stack, if you saw a plume especially in cold
13:19
weather. Yeah, a white plume coming out
13:21
of there. That is mostly water, okay?
13:25
And Is there any like anything? Any of the bad stuff in the
13:30
water? I guess.
13:32
No. Because that's in the dryer.
13:34
You're separating it. You're actually no, no the
13:37
waters still at that point. The water is separated from the
13:40
solids and the solids contain all of the contaminants.
13:43
Okay, okay, still at that point. Okay?
13:45
So first, you dry it, the Wastewater goes out the stack.
13:50
I'd imagine, it becomes a rain at something or whatever,
13:53
wherever water goes. So.
13:55
And then, your next part is that you Heat it, but you're not
13:59
burning it at this point. Is that the pyrolysis?
14:01
Again, I have a very rudimentary understanding of the correct
14:04
department. All assist Kiln is a, it's a
14:07
device that takes material in to an environment where we can heat
14:11
it. As I said, to just over 1,000
14:13
degrees in and that environment has no oxygen, it's an oxygen
14:18
starved environment. So there is a can't burn.
14:19
Therefore it can't burn, look at auction in, there's no fire and
14:23
so that allows us that heating allows us to separate the
14:27
Organic compounds, pfos and those those sorts of things from
14:30
the solids. So what comes out of the
14:32
pyrolysis Kiln is the end product at that point that
14:35
carbon fertilizer is it's hot and needs to be cooled and bag
14:38
but it's basically ready to go outside.
14:40
It's done. The product is made at that
14:41
point. It's what happens after that to
14:44
the gases and the gas involved and volatilized oils that that
14:48
matters relative to decontamination.
14:50
So from there it goes again, as I was saying to the thermal
14:53
oxidizer which Cooks It initially at 2300 degrees,
14:56
that's a three-stage. Thermal oxidizer.
14:58
So it goes through multiple stages and that combustion
15:03
breaks apart all those compounds.
15:04
There's literally nothing left after that point of concern in
15:09
the exhaust gas. And we capture the energy from
15:11
that, heat release, and we actually use that to heat the
15:14
dryer. So that's what makes our
15:16
process. So efficient, we take the energy
15:17
from the biosolids and mixed Woods effectively in that
15:21
manner. And we use that heat energy to
15:23
run the dryer. So we don't have to use an
15:25
outside fuel source to run the dryer.
15:27
Fire. So okay.
15:31
See. Dry it heat.
15:32
It very hot, but don't burn it per se because there's no oxygen
15:37
and then you have your fertilizer and but there's still
15:41
some of the bad stuff, the bad stuff goes up and you heat it
15:44
again. This time though, you are
15:46
burning it this time. We're combusting.
15:48
The gases in the air slides oils, that's correct.
15:50
Okay, to I think you said 2300 degrees, initially 2300, there,
15:54
it's a multi stage of the highest the hottest point in.
15:57
It is the first stage at 2300, okay?
15:59
And that Breaks up all the bad stuff that we don't want
16:03
basically. Okay.
16:05
And then it goes out the stack so you know the air that's there
16:08
goes out the stack but before it does be careful with the with
16:12
the use of the terms that goes out the stack from there because
16:15
because probably I mean relatives you to human health,
16:19
concerns and questions that have been raised about their
16:21
emissions from this facility regardless of how successful we
16:25
are at destroying contaminants in the thermal oxidizer.
16:29
Princess, what Matters. Most is how we scrub the air and
16:34
how effective the air treatment system is after that, okay.
16:37
All right. So that's because Mike, what if
16:39
we don't get it all? I mean I'm getting a
16:41
manufacturer guarantee. That says, oh yeah, at 2300.
16:43
Ruiz will break up all the pfos. There won't be any well, what if
16:46
there is. I don't want it going out of our
16:48
stack, right? So okay, the dec is regulating
16:51
us there will be a permit compliance, requirement that
16:55
only certain amounts of certain compounds are allowed to go out
16:58
of the stack. And we have to, if we don't
17:00
comply, With that permit, they shut us down.
17:03
Yeah, you know, we can't afford to be shut down, so we're not
17:05
having that happen. So the air treatment system is
17:07
critical in this whole process. I have to imagine that in
17:11
today's day and age after all the things that have happened
17:14
around the country. Over the last 100 years, of
17:18
major manufacturers polluting, the environment and doing some
17:21
pretty bad things. I guess that there's got to be
17:25
some oversight that is making sure that that doesn't happen.
17:30
Well that's that's It's an interesting way to put it.
17:32
I would, I would characterize it this way.
17:34
Yes, that has occurred 100 years ago, there was no DEC here in
17:38
New York. There were no, there was no
17:40
environmental regulation, you know, EPA EPA.
17:42
And over that period of time, those organizations have grown
17:46
the regulations that they've developed, which are founded by
17:49
the laws that are developed in. Our legislators have really
17:53
continuously tighten the reins on on environmental, pollution
17:58
concerns in human health, concerns in all Good reason.
18:01
That said that, that absolutely is how it should be.
18:04
And interestingly, here in New York state, we probably have the
18:07
most aggressive or the most effective environmental
18:11
regulator in the country. The only other one that remotely
18:14
Compares would be California. Yeah, you know, New York and
18:17
California. We like to regulate everything.
18:19
Well, in some people say it's, you know, to a fault.
18:22
But I mean, as it relates to human health, I don't know that
18:24
there can never be enough because we're horrible things
18:26
have happened. So well, I also there is that
18:29
oversight that you just mentioned there.
18:30
Is absolutely that type of oversight here in New York
18:32
state. Oh and that's that was something
18:34
that I keep reading as well, in both news articles and on
18:38
Facebook and different forms is that, you know, one of the
18:41
concerns is that locally, we know we have had some and I
18:44
won't name them, but we've had some organizations that have not
18:48
been kind to the environment. And because of that, there have
18:53
been high cancer rates that I don't know if they've ever been
18:58
able to exactly connect those dots.
19:00
I know that a lot of people locally feel that some of these
19:02
higher cancer rates locally have been attributed to those
19:05
organizations and, and because of that people are, you know, to
19:09
say rightfully so a little bit gun shy.
19:12
And so, I guess my question is, you know, how do you, you know,
19:18
and I know that you mentioned manufacturer guarantee.
19:20
Like, how do you, how do you not become one of those
19:22
organizations? And I know that we kind of
19:24
touched on it, but I know that it's kind of a big concern and I
19:27
just, I want to make sure that I get the answer, right?
19:30
Like, how do you Not become those organizations.
19:32
Well, I mean that's something that absolutely must be avoided
19:35
because that that sort of pollution and lack of care for
19:39
environment and human health is an acceptable anymore.
19:41
So we wouldn't be able to operate if and again back to the
19:45
permit compliance, if we're not able to conform and comply with
19:49
the permits, that will be hopefully provided by New York
19:51
State DEC for Waste Management handling and for air emissions
19:57
we will be shut down. We'll be out of business and
19:59
that's not acceptable. So So everything relates to the
20:04
engineering design planning, Testing Lab analysis and we've
20:08
spent years on this. So I've had a lot of criticism.
20:11
You guys don't know that you can do this.
20:12
Well yeah, actually we do know, we spend hundreds of thousands
20:15
of dollars with our manufacturing partners with
20:18
field testing and with the lab analysis.
20:20
And then I've had some people say well Hannah still lab
20:22
analysis well no I'm not handing over this, this is trade secret
20:25
information. If the regulator wants it, we've
20:27
given the regulator everything that they need and we would open
20:30
up anything. To them.
20:31
Some of that would have to be redacted relative to public
20:33
consumption because it's trade secret.
20:35
It has tremendous intellectual property value that we have
20:38
spent a lot of money and time on.
20:40
And I'm not going to have our competitors just handed that
20:42
information. So so we've been doing this for
20:45
years and so it's all about the depth of the review and the
20:49
planning and design and, and the team that encompasses all this
20:54
and we've got this isn't me. We're my two founding Partners,
20:58
leawo vocal and Bryce Meeker doing all this work.
21:00
Writing guidance to to you know to make sure that our our
21:05
Consulting and Manufacturing Partners understand the business
21:07
that we're trying to build and what it needs to do.
21:10
But we're relying on people with chemical engineering degrees,
21:14
physical engineering degrees, Professional Engineers,
21:17
manufacturing design, Engineers with decades and Decades of
21:21
experience in thermal processing and chemical conversion to come
21:25
up with the answers to meet the needs of our business plan.
21:29
And now you Mentioned in the conversation earlier about like
21:32
manufacturer guarantees like what does that mean exactly when
21:36
you have a manufacturer? I mean, because again, you know,
21:38
there's there's been questions that, you know, this has never
21:41
been done before. You're the first facility of
21:46
your kind, I don't know if it's in the world but in this
21:49
country. Anyway, what you know, what is a
21:54
guarantee mean? Like from the manufacturers?
21:56
I just don't understand that. So I can describe that really
21:59
really clearly and succinctly. Equally.
22:01
But first, we're not the first facility of this kind in the
22:04
world biosolids biochar, Productions occurring, in
22:08
Europe, and in the UK and China and the North American continent
22:12
hasn't really has an adapted yet.
22:14
So but we're definitely out of the curve in that regard.
22:17
And that's we want to and we need to be first to Market with
22:20
that, that's our first mover advantage and so you know that
22:24
that has a lot of value to us, but the guarantees really really
22:28
come in three different levels. Boils or three areas.
22:32
The first is simply a process guarantee from the thermal
22:36
processing equipment manufacturer.
22:38
And that basically says that this equipment is guaranteed to
22:43
to process 10 tons per hour of the material that you want to
22:46
process without fail. And and if there is failure, the
22:50
manufacturer has a certain set of responsibilities financial
22:54
and direct and immediate intervention responsibilities to
22:57
fix that problem. And to us that means Is
23:00
continuity. And it also means that we
23:03
wouldn't have to you know, have a stream of biosolids backed up
23:07
at the facility unable to be processed.
23:09
And we're working with a manufacturer that's been
23:12
building thermal processing equipment for 148 years in here
23:17
in the United States. This is a u.s. manufacturer and
23:20
when I don't mean to interrupt, but when you say a stream of
23:22
biosolids backed up at the facility, do you mean like from
23:25
a transport standpoint or like you on the line of try?
23:28
No, that's yeah, yeah. So from a transport, Standpoint.
23:31
So we have two mechanisms, right?
23:32
So first off we need to be able to process the material that
23:35
comes in without fail. So that's that's what the
23:37
manufacturing guarantee provides for us relative to process
23:41
guaranteed and we also have an engagement with our feedstock
23:45
provider because sell organic switch, which contractually
23:49
enables us to with a phone call. Say, if we needed to, you have
23:53
to stop bringing biosolids immediately.
23:54
And so at that point, they would divert the trucks before they
23:57
ever got to Moreau. They'll go somewhere else that
23:58
go to a landfill, another incinerator Land up all the
24:01
things that we don't want them to do it by ourselves that go
24:04
back to doing what they do today which would cost us a lot of
24:06
money because we're unable unable at that point to meet the
24:09
contractual obligations with the feedstock provider.
24:12
So therefore we get basically the manufacturer guarantee pays
24:16
for covers the cost of that downtime effectively so that's
24:21
level one is just process. Guaranteed on the thermal
24:23
processing equipment, the second level which is really important
24:28
is the guarantee from the Manufacturer.
24:31
That's that's building the thermal oxidation unit.
24:35
The multistage thermal oxidizer that we talked about a minute
24:37
ago. And that's where you, you cook,
24:40
the bad stuff to break it apart. Nope, don't.
24:44
All right? No, that's pyrolysis.
24:45
The thermal oxidation is the next stage after okay, where we
24:48
actually heat the gas and aerosolized oil to 2300 degrees
24:52
and then it steps down in a multi stage combustion, choke a
24:55
so that's one that basically breaks up the peafowl, That's
24:58
combustion. Okay.
24:59
And so, in order to obtain Guarantee from that
25:01
manufacturer, we've raised the temperature.
25:04
We've made it a multi-stage unit.
25:06
The cost of, it's gone from 1 million to 3 million dollars to
25:09
have that. Surety that it will do what it's
25:12
prescribed to do. And so that's really important
25:14
because that that manufacturers giving us a literally giving us
25:17
a guarantee on pfos destruction, which has become a really hot
25:20
topic. A lot of people are concerned
25:23
about it, I guess, rightly so and an additional e, we know
25:27
that the EPA the US EPA is tightening.
25:30
Regulations on pfos, they have named certain there were over.
25:35
4,000 variance of pfos in the manufacturing world that are
25:38
used in all kinds of different products and things, including
25:40
things that you eat with but the regulations are being tightened
25:44
on on those as they set generally and certain components
25:48
of that set of pfos compounds have now been deemed hazardous,
25:54
hazardous material, that's not biosolids, but specifically
25:58
certain variants of pfos or no Are now regulated as hazardous.
26:02
And so, my point is that we know that as time goes on the
26:06
requirements for pfos, remediation, and the
26:10
requirements that there is no pfos, or that P foss's is
26:15
heavily regulated in air. Emissions are going to get
26:18
Tighter and Tighter. So we don't want to have to
26:20
rebuild the plant 10 years. From now, we're building it
26:23
today to be ready for today's regulations and tomorrow's
26:27
especially relative to pfos. Because that is it's a Trace
26:30
amount in BIO solids but it does exist.
26:33
It's of high public concern. And we have made the commitment
26:36
that we destroy remediate pfos from from a material.
26:41
And we're committed to that to do that.
26:44
So that's that's thermal oxidation guarantee for pfos,
26:48
Destruction and the third level of manufacture guarantee is the
26:51
air treatment system. We are working with Condor chem
26:54
envirotec to European. It's a massive European company.
26:58
One of if not the most successful Are industrial air,
27:02
treatment manufacturer providers in the world and that are
27:06
treatment system is an excess of 2 million dollars.
27:09
And we are getting a guarantee from that manufacturer that we
27:13
will meet or exceed. The requirements for our New
27:17
York state, d.c. are missions permit and that we will exceed
27:23
expectations for odor removal. It's one of the most important
27:26
things to us is not to have a facility that stinks up the
27:30
neighborhood. And, you know, Moreau is a
27:33
fairly rural area within a half. A mile of facility there are, I
27:36
think, under 60 residences, residential locations, for
27:41
postal addresses, anyway, and you know, week, but we don't
27:43
want, we don't want to know what her problem.
27:45
We don't want odor complaints, right?
27:47
We don't want to be a bad neighbor.
27:48
We've signed a we've created and signed a policy in row that says
27:51
will be a good neighbor. We won't stink it up.
27:54
We won't have problems with trucks.
27:56
We won't have noise that exceeds the town's noise regulations and
28:00
And things like that. So it's important to us to
28:03
remediate odor and so what comes out to stack, the emission stack
28:07
of the facility goes relatively unnoticed by the surrounding
28:11
public. So I guess on that point, And I
28:16
know like you said, you're going above and beyond expectations
28:20
from the DC as far as what your emissions are.
28:24
I guess, I mean, I, you know, I don't know what those standards
28:27
are. I have to assume they're
28:28
probably pretty high, but I know that one of the things that
28:32
we've seen in the news is that you've your, you've been, I
28:36
don't know. Hit with a lawsuit, I guess from
28:39
a local environmental, about about your air emission.
28:42
So I guess that's what I'm another one of the things I'm
28:44
confused about. If you know, if you're above and
28:47
beyond what all of the regulating agencies are asking
28:51
what possibly could someone be, you know?
28:53
Be suing you for, I guess again, one of the things that is just
28:56
very confusing out there. Yeah, there's a just based on
28:59
your question. There's a lot of confusion.
29:02
So first off the lawsuit is called an article 78 complaint
29:07
and it was filed against the town of Monroe planning board,
29:09
specifically, okay. And Saratoga biochar was named
29:12
as a co-respondent and what that lawsuit alleges is that the town
29:16
of Monroe planning board, did not adequately adequately adhere
29:21
to New York State's Environmental.
29:23
Body review Act and the the requirements of that act to for
29:29
project reviews. They basically say that the town
29:31
didn't do enough review of the proposed project and that they
29:35
did not rightfully issue. A statement of quality review -
29:40
declaration - meaning no substantial environmental impact
29:45
they issued a positive or they issued a negative declaration.
29:49
That said there would be no substantial environmental impact
29:51
meaning that it's you know, like mild.
29:53
Moderate. And in the process of their
29:56
review, they also discussed and evaluated the environmental and
30:01
human health mitigation measures that that we are proposed and
30:05
designed and and that covered a lot of areas from Wastewater
30:10
discharge the waste water content are emissions truck,
30:13
traffic traffic, Route, odor noise, environmental concerns.
30:20
Like are we building on a property that had potentially
30:23
has? Endangered species or anything
30:25
of that nature, archaeological remains all of those things were
30:28
covered in that review. All of those things, including
30:31
also things like Emergency Management.
30:34
We met with the Saratoga County Emergency Management and done
30:37
with the local Fire Department, chief to review the facility
30:42
layout and we got their input and we'll continue to get their
30:45
input through the building permit process to ensure that
30:48
the facility is properly designed to, you know, for
30:51
emergency response in Emergency Management.
30:53
And things like that. So the review was comprehensive
30:57
the lawsuit alleges that, it wasn't.
30:59
But that's what it's about. It's about the State
31:01
Environmental Quality review specifically, it's not, it's not
31:05
detailed to the level of. It's not a lawsuit against an
31:08
air emissions profile or some catch.
31:10
Okay? Because that's again.
31:11
What as you read, all these different things, whether it's
31:13
on Facebook or in some of the news articles I've read, you
31:17
know, just that's that was the impression that I got was that
31:20
you guys were being sued, but it's, yeah, well, in effect.
31:23
Our, but the lawsuit is directly aimed at the town of Monroe,
31:26
planning board, and where the applicant relative to the
31:29
approval that they provide. And so, they named us as a
31:31
correspondent. Okay?
31:33
And an article 78 lawsuit, it's not like a civil lawsuit,
31:37
there's no Discovery. There's no trial what it is.
31:40
Is it's a complaint filed where an appointed judge will then
31:45
review the government, the record of the government's
31:47
handling of an action. So, in other words, the Saratoga
31:51
county court is going to review tomorrow.
31:53
Oh, town planning board's, handling of our application and
31:56
the handling of their State Environmental Quality review
31:59
relative to our application. And the court will then render a
32:02
decision. That that the way, that that
32:04
agency handled that was appropriate or not understood.
32:07
Okay, that makes a little more sense.
32:10
What? I just couple more questions.
32:14
I know we're kind of getting pressed for time, you know, one
32:17
of the things that I keep seeing a lot to is the term and we kind
32:23
of touched on this in the beginning with the whole main
32:24
deal. But like I keep hearing sewage
32:26
sludge sewage sludge, are you bringing sewage sludge into the
32:31
area? We're bringing biosolids into
32:33
the area? So there's there's a lot of
32:34
confusion around that and those those terms are used
32:38
interchangeably. Like it sounds like you're going
32:40
to have 100 trucks a day coming in.
32:43
With this sewage, sludge, that's what I keep reading and I just,
32:47
you know, just from a little information that I know about
32:49
the process. That doesn't seem to be the
32:50
case. But again, you know, there's so
32:53
much information out there. So I'm just so a lot of people
32:56
even people within the wastewater treatment industry
32:58
referred to sludge and biosolids interchangeably.
33:02
But reality is sewage sludge, is that is the solids with in a way
33:07
that are received at a wastewater treatment plant that
33:10
come in with the water. And so it's a liquid sewage
33:12
sludge Judge is a liquid, you could have a bucket full of it.
33:15
I sloshing around washing around short out on the ground and has
33:18
not yet been treated biosolids are treated sewage, sludge.
33:22
So it's multiple stages after receipt of Wastewater from the
33:26
sewage treatment plant, it gets dewatered, sludge settles out,
33:30
excuse me, the sludge settles out of the water for the
33:33
dewatering process. They in most cases add the
33:36
bacteria to it. That consumes organic matter and
33:39
literally transforms sewage sludge into something else which
33:42
is Called biosolids after done. So if there's an additional
33:46
treatment process, I'm not suggesting.
33:47
The biosolids are clean. They're not.
33:49
And in our opinion, they need much further Trio.
33:51
I do. That's why we're doing what we
33:52
do. Take that that material which
33:54
has a lot of valuable carbon, and nutrients and clean it so
33:57
that it can be safely and properly used as an agricultural
34:01
soil amendment or fertilizer. So that's, that's really the
34:03
difference. Biosolids are the quote unquote,
34:05
treated material, that comes out of a sewage treatment plant and
34:09
it's not sewage sludge and it's not liquid, it's a solid.
34:12
So, there is a It's between the two things and that's okay,
34:15
that's the difference. And you're not bringing sewage
34:17
sludge, we're not bringing skips Legend everything.
34:19
We've been accused of is will be burning sludge.
34:21
We don't. Our process does not burn any
34:24
solids. We don't burn sewage sludge to
34:26
be clear. We do not burn.
34:28
Sewage sludge the incinerator up the road or wherever else in New
34:32
York state where the incinerators exists at do
34:34
receive trash and municipal waste which often includes
34:38
biosolids. They are burning it well.
34:40
So that was one of my other questions was and Something you
34:43
said earlier, kind of said that like you know let's just pretend
34:48
there's no no Saratoga biochar, what happens to those biosolids?
34:52
Now I'm set sewage sludge now, where were you?
34:54
I'll tell you exactly where it goes.
34:56
And I'll be as quick as I can because I know were pressed for
34:58
time, but just just to back up a step, we're not an incinerator.
35:02
There are incinerators out there that do burn biosolids.
35:05
They burn the solids, and, and all that material, including
35:09
only partially remediated pfos goes up into the The air.
35:13
It's not all caught in the air. Scrubbers not by, not by a long
35:16
shot. Does, it doesn't Glens Falls.
35:17
Have an incinerator. Yes.
35:19
Yeah. Right up the road.
35:20
Yeah, right like, wouldn't it be nice if some of the material
35:23
divert gets diverted from that incinerator, to our facility,
35:26
where can be properly handled where we're not burning it
35:28
putting up me? That's it.
35:29
So, that's what that, that was something that I was thinking
35:31
about to. I'm like, I don't understand.
35:32
So Glens Falls waste water, treatment plant, which is
35:35
located on Sherman Town, Road once Falls.
35:38
And I just happen to know that because I used to have a
35:39
business on Sheridan long story, but right off of warrants Eight,
35:43
they burn it there. You know, I have to be careful.
35:46
I don't know what their, I don't know what that Warren Street
35:48
facilities per Min includes. I really don't know if they
35:51
actually are permitted to take and incinerate biosolids.
35:55
But if they do that wouldn't happen anymore after our
35:57
facilities built and but we do know other, I do know of other
36:01
incinerators in the state that are permitted to receive and
36:04
incinerate biosolids along with municipal waste trash okay,
36:08
which is an our opinion, a horrible practice but back to
36:12
your question, Question about where to biosolids?
36:14
Go currently in the state of New York?
36:16
Well, first of all, interestingly 25% of the
36:19
biosolids generated in the state get trucked or train hauled out
36:22
of the state because we're running on a landfill space, we
36:25
don't have anywhere to put it and and we're not permitting.
36:28
New landfills is extremely difficult in New York state at
36:31
this point in time to develop a new landfill.
36:33
So the question begs the question how long are other
36:37
states going to want to take our, you know what?
36:39
So we have endless examples of where it's Hauled by train at a
36:43
tremendous Transportation cost. Bear in mind biosolids is even
36:47
though it's a solid is still 75 percent water content, so we're
36:50
hauling water around all over the country as far as Colorado,
36:53
Texas, Tennessee, I think currently by train is very, very
36:57
expensive. It's a foolish way to handle
36:59
this material, and it's only because we're not, we don't have
37:03
a system here in New York to handle it properly.
37:05
So, 25% gets hauled out of state landfills accepted incinerators,
37:09
accepted that, that that comes to an end pretty quickly because
37:12
Because it just stinks and nobody wants it and rightly.
37:15
So secondly, how is it handled here in the state about 65% gets
37:21
the land filled. Most landfills are designed to
37:25
you know, to attend to water. Drainage when the landfill and
37:29
not have leachate and up in the groundwater.
37:31
But there's no guarantee. So, you know, biosolids
37:34
leachates could be, you know, making their way out of the
37:37
landfill on surface water or through.
37:40
Groundwater, it certainly, it must happen.
37:43
You know, I'm sure it happens. So there's that it's a
37:46
tremendous nuisance odor. It's usually used on the top of
37:49
the trash pile because it makes it makes a good covering for.
37:53
It gets mixed with soil to cover an area that a cell, a landfill
37:59
cell that's been filled with with municipal waste and so
38:01
therefore it's right on top and so it rots and it stinks in the
38:04
neighborhood. If you smell a landfill from two
38:06
miles away, it's probably not the trash.
38:07
It's probably the biosolids that you're smelling routing
38:10
biosolids. And so, a lot goes to Most goes
38:13
to landfills, a good chunk, goes to incineration where it gets
38:15
directly, the solids are directly burned and that's a
38:18
tremendous waste of valuable material carbon and nutrients
38:23
and puts a lot of carbon carbon dioxide.
38:25
Carbon dioxide equivalence and other, contaminants up into our
38:28
atmosphere and then additionally, quite a fair
38:32
amount of and I think around 16% New York state gets put towards
38:36
what's called an alternative or benefit quote-unquote beneficial
38:39
use, its composted and and directly.
38:42
Applied as a fertilizer. And that's probably one of the
38:46
things that our company ethos is most of her stew because that
38:50
takes that material, which does have Trace Amounts of
38:52
contaminants, and frequently puts it right back into the
38:55
human food chain. Now, in my opinion, is stupid.
38:59
And that's like, what happened in Maine.
39:01
That, that is exactly what happened in Maine.
39:03
We are diametrically opposed to that.
39:05
That's, we do the exact opposite of that.
39:07
We decontaminate that material. Make it into a clean, fertilizer
39:12
lab. Eli's guaranteed analyzed
39:15
certified clean for use as a fertilizer in matter of fact, so
39:20
clean that it will take some time and probably a couple of
39:24
years of consistent lab testing of our product, but it is our
39:27
goal in the end, to get a USDA organic certification for that
39:30
material, we may never get it, but we're going to come darn
39:33
close and we're going to try its that it is that clean.
39:36
So I know we're over our time, but I did one last quick
39:38
question because I just, I literally just saw this comment
39:40
on Facebook this morning. That someone had said something
39:44
about like you wouldn't put on your own garden or something
39:47
like that. Would you would you put your
39:49
product on your own garden? I would absolutely put.
39:52
My product are biochar, our carbon fertilizer on my own
39:55
garden for food production for myself and my family.
39:58
What may that, that that Facebook post may have been
40:02
referring to, by using biosolids untreated biosolids as a
40:08
fertilizer. Which again, I totally agree.
40:09
That's crazy. It should not be used for human
40:12
food. Food production and should also
40:13
not be used for growing plant matter, that's consumed by
40:18
animals that we then eat because some of those contaminants and
40:21
bile salts can bio accumulate make their way up through the
40:23
food chain, and end up on our plate.
40:25
That's crazy. Yes, it is, we can do better.
40:30
I agree, right. Thanks again for coming on today
40:34
and kind of help into I mean I feel a little less confused,
40:37
that's for sure. And you know one more time I
40:40
think if if anybody has questions, you know, it's my,
40:46
can you give us the information on the Monday session one more
40:48
time? Yeah.
40:49
So there is a public participation virtual meeting
40:53
being held on Monday evening at 6 p.m.
40:57
Monday. December 19th information to
40:59
access Is that meeting can be found on our website that
41:02
Saratoga biochar.com /p p p, which is short for public
41:09
participation plan again. Saratoga biochar.com /p p p
41:13
there you'll find information on how to access the meeting as
41:16
well as all of the links relative to our environmental
41:19
permit applications. It's awesome.
41:22
Well thanks again. I appreciate it.
41:23
And you know if you're listening and you have someone or know
41:27
someone that is also as confused as I I was maybe send this
41:31
podcast over to him, sending the link, you'll be able to find it.
41:34
On both Saratoga Business Report, Glens Falls today and
41:38
Saratoga today.and outside of Saratoga Today newspaper.com.
41:43
Thanks one other. Sorry mum.
41:45
Yeah, no. Don't have one other real quick
41:47
thing for listeners that are interested in direct
41:49
interaction. You can use our company, email
41:52
address, it's called info. I NF 0 at Saratoga biochar.com.
41:58
That's awesome. I know that you have been
41:59
Remember I was sitting in planning board meeting in.
42:02
You'd actually given one of the the local residents, your cell
42:04
phone told him to call your text.
42:06
You if there's any issues. Absolutely appreciate that
42:09
right. Thanks again.
42:10
Thanks for listening everybody. Thanks Mike.