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144 - The Theme Stated beat · Story Magic

• 2:14
  Rachel: Foreign.
• 2:27
  Rachel: Hey, writers.
• 2:27
  Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're**** proud of.
• 2:32
  Rachel: I'm Emily.
• 2:33
  Emily: And I'm Rachel.
• 2:34
  Rachel: Today we are talking about the theme stated beat.
• 2:40
  Emily: What's that?
• 2:41
  Rachel: I know we're going to talk about what it is, why it's important, why you should consider it, and why you shouldn't worry about it so much.
• 2:49
  Rachel: Just kidding.
• 2:50
  Rachel: Self insert.
• 2:52
  Rachel: So this came from someone in our community, our tenacious writing community, asking.
• 2:57
  Rachel: They're working on the first act of their story and looking for ways to put in what's called the theme stated beat into their act.
• 3:08
  Rachel: And they're having some trouble doing it.
• 3:10
  Rachel: And so they asked us if we would chat about it.
• 3:12
  Rachel: And I thought that was a great idea because I think sometimes I think it's the kind of thing that people overthink in terms of, like, how it can be done.
• 3:22
  Rachel: Like, I just feel like it's.
• 3:24
  Rachel: If you have a story point in your story, it shouldn't be so difficult to slip in.
• 3:28
  Rachel: But anyway, yeah, before we dive into
• 3:30
  Emily: that, I do agree with that.
• 3:31
  Emily: Yeah,
• 3:33
  Rachel: before we.
• 3:36
  Rachel: Yeah, before we get started, let's just talk about what it is.
• 3:38
  Rachel: So I pulled up.
• 3:39
  Rachel: So the idea of the theme stated beat comes from Blake Snyder's Save the Cat screenwriting method, which is one of the most popular sort of western story structure resources.
• 3:54
  Rachel: It's like the Save the Cat beat sheet.
• 3:56
  Rachel: If you've been around for a minute, you've probably heard about it.
• 3:59
  Rachel: And it was made famous for novels by.
• 4:03
  Rachel: By Jessica Brody, who wrote Save the Cat Writes Novel, which is kind of an adaptation of this screenwriting method into this novel method.
• 4:11
  Rachel: And so Blake Snyder, in the original Save the Cat, the screenwriting version, says that the theme stated.
• 4:18
  Rachel: He defines it as somewhere in the first five minutes of a well structured screenplay, someone, usually not the main character, will pose a question or make a statement, usually to the main character.
• 4:31
  Rachel: That is the theme of the movie.
• 4:35
  Rachel: This statement is the movie's thematic premise.
• 4:39
  Rachel: So he.
• 4:40
  Rachel: The examples that he lists are be careful what you wish for or pride goeth before a fall, or family's more important than money.
• 4:47
  Rachel: He says it won't be this obvious.
• 4:49
  Rachel: It will be conversational, an offhand remark that the character doesn't quite get at the moment.
• 4:53
  Rachel: That's the key part, but which will have far reaching and meaningful impact later.
• 5:00
  Rachel: So basically it's the message of your story.
• 5:03
  Emily: Yeah.
• 5:05
  Rachel: So if you've heard us talk about story points before.
• 5:07
  Rachel: Right.
• 5:07
  Rachel: Every story is making a point about how you, the Author think the world works just via how your characters, the choices that your characters are making, the mistakes that they're making, and the consequences that come out of those choices and mistakes.
• 5:21
  Rachel: Say something, right, about how people should act in the world if they want to get what they want or be good humans or have meaningful change.
• 5:30
  Rachel: Right.
• 5:31
  Rachel: Um, whatever your message is about the world and the story, this is basically just saying that that needs to be present in your first act because your character, it's the thing your character needs to learn most of the time.
• 5:42
  Rachel: And so if they.
• 5:45
  Rachel: They need to learn it, which means they don't know it, which means they'll reject it.
• 5:48
  Rachel: Right.
• 5:49
  Rachel: And so that's just, that's just what the theme stated be is, is that somewhere in the beginning of your story early on is good.
• 5:56
  Rachel: Somebody should say what your character needs to learn and they should reject it.
• 6:01
  Rachel: And it.
• 6:02
  Rachel: They can say it directly like, you need to learn this.
• 6:04
  Rachel: Or it can just be like an offhand statement that somebody makes, not.
• 6:08
  Rachel: Maybe not even to your main character that they hear and reject.
• 6:12
  Rachel: But it's present on the page.
• 6:14
  Emily: Yes.
• 6:14
  Rachel: Anything you would add to that definition?
• 6:18
  Emily: Well, I think not to the definition.
• 6:19
  Emily: I think, like, when it started clicking to me because I had read Save the Cat Writes a Novel plenty of times before, this felt natural to include, and now it does feel very natural to include in the drafting of a story when I'm writing it.
• 6:36
  Emily: But what for me to, like, truly learn how this was, I paid attention to the movies.
• 6:43
  Emily: I, like, paid attention to the TV shows.
• 6:47
  Emily: And I'm trying to think of, like, the latest example.
• 6:50
  Emily: I watched a movie literally the other day, and I was like, whoops, there's a theme.
• 6:53
  Emily: Like, it just becomes so obvious when you're aware of it.
• 6:58
  Emily: And I, you know, when we did author accelerator training, Jenny Nash had commented, like, once you become aware of these things, like, it's very hard to shut the door on them.
• 7:06
  Emily: Like, you.
• 7:07
  Emily: You suddenly are like, oh, that's all the.
• 7:10
  Emily: There's the story structure.
• 7:11
  Emily: You know, that was one of the.
• 7:13
  Emily: The beats for me.
• 7:14
  Emily: That really started to stand out in, in TV and film.
• 7:18
  Emily: But in book.
• 7:19
  Emily: In books that I feel are usually a little more subtle, but not, I mean, not really.
• 7:25
  Emily: It's part of story structure.
• 7:26
  Emily: But it's so easy to see it in a movie because they're so quick.
• 7:30
  Emily: Right.
• 7:30
  Emily: Compared to a book.
• 7:33
  Emily: But I, I always think of this scene in the Hunger Games movie, and I know a parallel scene exists in the book where Katniss and Peeta.
• 7:45
  Emily: It's like the night before the Games, they're in the Capitol.
• 7:49
  Emily: They're like, ready to start the.
• 7:52
  Emily: The Hunger Games.
• 7:53
  Emily: They're ready to go kill 24 other children.
• 7:55
  Emily: Right.
• 7:56
  Emily: Like, this is a very intense night before.
• 7:59
  Emily: And Katniss is really freaked out.
• 8:01
  Emily: You know, she's really nervous about starting it because she wants to get back to Prim.
• 8:06
  Emily: And Pita says to her, you know, the Capitol doesn't own us.
• 8:11
  Emily: We don't.
• 8:12
  Emily: We can do what we want.
• 8:13
  Emily: Like, I. I'm not going to let them decide, you know, like.
• 8:16
  Emily: And he, he says the theme to her and she immediately is like, nope, gotta survive.
• 8:22
  Emily: Gotta kill her.
• 8:22
  Emily: You know, like, she just brushes it off.
• 8:25
  Emily: That's the one that always, like, stands out to me.
• 8:27
  Emily: And if you pay attention, it's usually an Act 1, but the hunger Games one happens a little bit later because it needs to be this moment kind of right before the story begins.
• 8:38
  Emily: And it's very impactful that Peeta is the one who tells it to her.
• 8:42
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 8:44
  Emily: And when I was writing my own books, this was something that came to me in revisions because I didn't know what my story point was until after the book was over.
• 8:56
  Emily: So I think if you're trying to write, trying to fit this into your own stories, I knew where it went.
• 9:03
  Emily: I didn't know what it was.
• 9:05
  Emily: You know, like, I knew where it was supposed to be because of story structure, but I didn't know exactly what it was.
• 9:10
  Emily: And there, I think this moment, the theme stated moment, the all is lost moment and the dark night of the soul moments are really where, as authors, we can uncover what is the message that we're trying to tell.
• 9:26
  Emily: Because I didn't start my books knowing what the theme stated would be.
• 9:31
  Emily: But when I got to that scene in Blood in the Water, which is my first book, there's a scene where Leona and her bodyguard Caspian are essentially like, under attack and they're on the run for their lives.
• 9:49
  Emily: And he kind of tells her, like, just, just like, live your life.
• 9:55
  Emily: Like, don't worry about he.
• 9:57
  Emily: She misunderstands it, but he tells her that revenge isn't really important.
• 10:03
  Emily: Like, what's important is the love that you have for.
• 10:05
  Emily: Basically, he's confessing his love to her, but he's like, yeah, the love that we have for each other, like, that's what we can live.
• 10:11
  Emily: We can still live.
• 10:13
  Emily: And she shuts it down and she's like, no, I can't live again until I get revenge.
• 10:20
  Emily: Yeah. And when I wrote that scene, the first time I was like, trying to explore, like, what is he telling her that she says no to?
• 10:29
  Emily: And that uncovered for me a lot of what the themes of the story were about, which was her pursuit of revenge and his devotion to love her.
• 10:38
  Emily: And then when I got to her, all is lost.
• 10:41
  Emily: And then the dark night of the soul, I had to bring that back to be like, okay, what really is.
• 10:45
  Emily: What really is the message here?
• 10:45
  Emily: And how are these things connected?
• 10:49
  Emily: So it didn't get really refined for me until revisions.
• 10:53
  Emily: It didn't get more clear until I had decided, okay, this is my story point.
• 10:58
  Emily: So in process, to me, this isn't something you need to know right off the bat, but it is like, it helped me to be aware of it.
• 11:06
  Emily: It helped me to understand how it worked in other stories.
• 11:08
  Emily: It helped me to pay attention to the movies I was watching and the TV shows and be like, oh, yeah, they literally do tell you right to your face.
• 11:17
  Emily: This movie is about trust.
• 11:19
  Emily: This movie is about accepting yourself.
• 11:21
  Emily: This.
• 11:22
  Emily: This movie is about whatever it is.
• 11:24
  Emily: You know, I think the one I was watching the other day was K Pop Demon Hunters, because Rose and I watch that movie all the time.
• 11:33
  Emily: But you and I watched it.
• 11:36
  Emily: So you're.
• 11:37
  Emily: You're familiar now.
• 11:38
  Rachel: I am now familiar.
• 11:41
  Emily: And what's interesting too about the theme stated moment in K Pop Demon Hunters is that so in.
• 11:49
  Emily: In K Pop Demon Hunters, the main group, like the main protagonist is Rumi, and she's the leader of a pop group called Huntrix.
• 12:00
  Emily: And there are two other girls in Huntrix.
• 12:02
  Emily: So it's a group of three girls that are kind of the main characters.
• 12:04
  Emily: Rumi is the main main character.
• 12:06
  Emily: But then Zoe and Mira are the second, like, the secondary main characters.
• 12:13
  Emily: Rumi. We as like viewers have just found out Spoilers.
• 12:17
  Emily: That Rumi is.
• 12:19
  Emily: Is half demon and she runs away from a concert.
• 12:24
  Emily: And that's kind of like our.
• 12:27
  Emily: Our big catalyst moment is that her voice is not really working because of her demon, her half demon patterns.
• 12:36
  Emily: And when she returns home, Mira and Zoe are waiting for her.
• 12:40
  Emily: And they're not angry that she ditched this live show.
• 12:43
  Emily: They're not angry that she ran away.
• 12:45
  Emily: They're not.
• 12:46
  Emily: They're they're literally there being like, tell us what's wrong.
• 12:49
  Emily: Like, they're, well willing to accept her.
• 12:52
  Emily: And they, they have this conversation of, like, you can trust us, you can tell us and we won't, like, whatever it is, we've got your back.
• 13:01
  Emily: And Rumi doesn't believe them.
• 13:04
  Emily: Then they're like, well, Maybe we should talk to our mentor, Celine.
• 13:09
  Emily: And then all three of the girls are like, nope.
• 13:13
  Emily: Selene would say, our faults and fears must never be seen.
• 13:17
  Emily: So they.
• 13:17
  Emily: They, all three of them actually end up rejecting the story point, even though Mira and Zoe had literally just said it to Rumi of like, no, you can trust us.
• 13:29
  Emily: You can tell us what you're afraid of and we'll support you.
• 13:31
  Rachel: You can show us.
• 13:32
  Emily: Yeah, you can show us.
• 13:34
  Emily: And then they all reject it.
• 13:36
  Emily: So I thought that was interesting when I watched it again the other day of, like, the themes are so present from the very beginning that if they would have trusted other with all of their faults and fears, they would have accepted each other from the very beginning.
• 13:48
  Emily: But when their internal.
• 13:51
  Emily: When they're like, joint internal obstacle flares to life, all three of them say no, and they reject it.
• 13:57
  Emily: And then that kicks us into the, like, bad plan of Act 2, which is that they're gonna try and hide what's happening and fix Rumi's voice on their own.
• 14:09
  Emily: And then Remy has her own, like, band plan, bad plan that extrapolates from there.
• 14:13
  Emily: But, like, I know I'm rambling, but the.
• 14:17
  Emily: You mentioned this earlier.
• 14:18
  Emily: The reason that this is important is because it.
• 14:20
  Emily: It shows the themes to the audience, but it also shows the audience and the.
• 14:26
  Emily: The reader that the character is unwilling to change.
• 14:29
  Emily: They had the chance.
• 14:31
  Emily: They are like, they were told the lesson and they said no to it.
• 14:37
  Emily: So it shows us that, like, they have.
• 14:40
  Emily: They are deeply influenced by their flaws.
• 14:43
  Emily: They've got their, like, the flaw.
• 14:45
  Emily: Ha. The flaws have their claws in them.
• 14:47
  Emily: They are holding onto their flaws.
• 14:48
  Emily: They're not ready to let them go until we get the consequences of their actions rolling through Act 2.
• 14:56
  Emily: And at the all is lost.
• 14:58
  Emily: Then when we've experienced all of the bad things that have happened to them, then when they're told the theme again, usually in Dark Night of the Soul, they're open to it.
• 15:08
  Emily: So there's parallels between Act 1 and the end of Act 2.
• 15:15
  Emily: By the time we get to the end of Act 2, we're ready to change.
• 15:18
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 15:19
  Rachel: So I think where people get tripped up on this, I think, is the placement of it.
• 15:27
  Rachel: Because Save the Cat has it placed within the first five pages of the story or screenplay or whatever.
• 15:33
  Emily: But five minutes of the screenplay is not five minutes of a movie.
• 15:37
  Emily: Just so that we're.
• 15:38
  Emily: We're clear.
• 15:38
  Emily: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:39
  Rachel: First five pages of a screenplay.
• 15:41
  Rachel: Yes.
• 15:41
  Rachel: But it's.
• 15:42
  Rachel: That's my point is a lot of times I think people overthink that placement because you will oftentimes find the theme stated after the catalyst moment of a story.
• 15:54
  Rachel: Because it's a very powerful thing for someone to say to your character during their debate scenes.
• 15:59
  Rachel: So Save the Cat has the Act 1 structure of the Save the Cat is, is that there's the setup where you establish who the character is and what they believe and all of that.
• 16:07
  Rachel: And the theme stated, it can be very powerful there, right?
• 16:09
  Rachel: Because by having them reject the theme of the story, you're kind of implying what it is that they believe, right in those setup scenes.
• 16:17
  Rachel: But then there's a catalyst moment where the character gets tested and they have these debate scenes to figure out what to do about it.
• 16:25
  Rachel: Are they going to act based on their flawed beliefs or act based on their.
• 16:29
  Rachel: The story point based on a heel belief, but they don't know it yet, so they're not going to.
• 16:34
  Rachel: And so personally, I think the theme stated can be in either or both of those spots.
• 16:40
  Rachel: The setup before the catalyst or the debate after.
• 16:43
  Rachel: And I think people can get kind of hung up on how am I going to put it in the first, you know, 2%, 5% of my story when the catalyst hasn't happened yet and all of this.
• 16:54
  Rachel: And I think one, that can come with revisions.
• 16:58
  Rachel: But two, it doesn't have to be an either or, and there's no, like, perfect placement for it.
• 17:05
  Rachel: The point of it is that it needs to be present somewhere in Act 1 where your character needs.
• 17:12
  Rachel: And part of that is in choice moments of scenes, right in the choice moment of a scene.
• 17:16
  Rachel: If you have studied scene structure with us, you'll recognize that the character.
• 17:21
  Rachel: You want to continually give the character choices between acting on their internal obstacle and acting on their story police belief.
• 17:27
  Rachel: And oftentimes that story point belief is going to be on the page in the form of somebody saying something related to the story point.
• 17:34
  Rachel: So in every scene, you kind of have an opportunity to put the story point on the page, show that it's an option that they could take in any given moment and that they're not.
• 17:44
  Rachel: And so I say all that to say, like, as for me, like, I was just thinking as you were talking, I was like, I don't even remember where my quote unquote theme stated moment is in behind the Crimson Curtain or even in the book I'm working on now that I just finished act one for.
• 18:02
  Rachel: Because I feel like multiple characters present it in multiple different ways.
• 18:07
  Rachel: Like some of them presented on accident.
• 18:10
  Rachel: Like it's, you know, it could be interpreted One way or another.
• 18:13
  Rachel: Some of them presented on purpose, some of them presented in anger, some of them presented in trying to teach the character.
• 18:20
  Rachel: But there's like a lot of different ways that it can show up.
• 18:22
  Rachel: And so for me, I don't think of it as much as a moment, right?
• 18:26
  Rachel: Like a line of dialogue where it's like, this is the theme of my story.
• 18:29
  Rachel: And more as, like, how is that theme present on the page?
• 18:33
  Rachel: And all of the opportunities that my character has to reject their internal obstacle and do the right thing and in all the different ways that they're rejecting it.
• 18:40
  Rachel: Right.
• 18:43
  Rachel: So that's where my earlier quote of like, I think people overthink this comes from.
• 18:47
  Rachel: Where, like, once you know what the message of your story is, and again, this is a process thing.
• 18:51
  Rachel: Right.
• 18:51
  Rachel: You might revise this, in which I'm currently doing.
• 18:54
  Rachel: I added a brand new opening chapter to this draft that I'm working on that's like, entirely theme stated.
• 19:02
  Rachel: Like, it's the main character fighting with her sister.
• 19:04
  Rachel: Her sister represents the story point of the story.
• 19:08
  Rachel: And the sister is just like, you don't get it?
• 19:10
  Rachel: And she's like, no, I don't get it.
• 19:12
  Rachel: And then the sister ends up dead.
• 19:13
  Rachel: And that, like, you know, prompts the.
• 19:16
  Rachel: The whole of the story.
• 19:17
  Rachel: But it's like, that wasn't in there before in my first draft.
• 19:20
  Rachel: Like, I had a more.
• 19:21
  Rachel: A more typical theme stated.
• 19:23
  Rachel: That was actually after the catalyst where a character was kind of talking to her about, what are you gonna do in Act 2.
• 19:29
  Rachel: And she was like, well, I'm not gonna do the story point that you're presenting to me.
• 19:35
  Rachel: And so, yeah, so I think there's a lot of different ways you can weave it in.
• 19:39
  Rachel: I really wouldn't overthink it.
• 19:40
  Rachel: I think my.
• 19:41
  Rachel: My advice would be to get clearer and clearer and clearer on the message of your story and then find clever ways to weave it in to the pages of your story through your secondary characters, through the subplots, through the choices that your character is making in each scene so that it is present.
• 19:59
  Rachel: Right.
• 19:59
  Rachel: You want it to be present in.
• 20:02
  Rachel: In every page of the story, right?
• 20:04
  Emily: Yeah.
• 20:05
  Emily: Yeah. I think it's been a long time since I've read Save the Cat Writes a Novel, which is the Jessica Brody version.
• 20:13
  Emily: But I do think that in the explanations of the theme stated, it puts the beat within the first 10% of the story.
• 20:20
  Emily: But I think she says anywhere in act one truly like it.
• 20:24
  Emily: It could come before or after, but I. I think there's like, I Think there are a lot of different ways to approach it.
• 20:32
  Emily: And the.
• 20:35
  Emily: If you don't know what it is, just leave space, right?
• 20:39
  Emily: Like, leave space for it.
• 20:40
  Emily: Know that it's coming if you're not.
• 20:42
  Emily: If you're not sure what your themes are.
• 20:45
  Emily: But I also think what I like about Save the Cat Writes a Novel.
• 20:51
  Emily: And what I also like about inserting this, the specific story point is that it does give you a lot of direction of what needs to happen.
• 21:02
  Emily: Whereas if you're just thinking, think theme, that is a lot more broad.
• 21:08
  Emily: Love is a theme, you know, justice is a theme.
• 21:11
  Emily: But if you're speaking of, like, love overcomes the obstacles of class, you know, like, that's way more easy, I think, to show than just, like, love, you know, like, the more specific you can be about what your themes are and what your story point is, I think it's easier to, like, craft a representation of that.
• 21:32
  Emily: Whether that is like a line of dialogue, which has always worked pretty well for me, is like some sort of very obvious moment.
• 21:38
  Emily: I mean, even in Fall Before Her Throne, it happens multiple times.
• 21:41
  Emily: But there is like a very apparent moment where Leona tells Obi, this is the point.
• 21:49
  Emily: And he's like, no, it's not the point.
• 21:52
  Emily: And then it continues to come up, right?
• 21:52
  Emily: Like, he wrestles with that throughout the whole story, but not saying, you need to know it now.
• 22:01
  Emily: But the more specific you can get, I think the easier it is to create, to create a representation of what this moment means on the page.
• 22:10
  Emily: Like, in a romance, love should be present everywhere.
• 22:13
  Emily: But your specific take on love and what the journey that these characters are on is really what matters.
• 22:19
  Emily: And what, like, makes your story original and what makes your story different than every other romance.
• 22:26
  Emily: And I think that's also the value of a specific theme, stated moment.
• 22:32
  Emily: Not, not that it has to be in one scene, but like a specific message is that we get so many questions about, how do I make sure my book isn't a copy of every other book in its genre?
• 22:46
  Emily: You know, and then it's like, well, what's your message?
• 22:48
  Emily: Is it different?
• 22:50
  Emily: Is it, is it your, your lens?
• 22:52
  Emily: Is it something diluted down into a meaningless thing that every book comments on?
• 22:56
  Emily: Or is it something specific that's meaningful, that matters to you and your characters?
• 23:02
  Emily: And I think that that also helps your, your book stand out is when you have a, an interesting message.
• 23:10
  Emily: It does.
• 23:11
  Emily: And I'm not saying that your message has to be like a brand new take on how to save the world, that no one's ever thought of before.
• 23:18
  Emily: But like, yeah, the more that you can have a specific message, I do think it will feel different than other books that readers have picked up before.
• 23:28
  Rachel: Yeah. And there's a really great podcast episode that we did with Emma Desi Guesty 20 on the difference between theme and story point.
• 23:39
  Rachel: And I think that's a really good point.
• 23:41
  Rachel: Like, bringing it into a theme stated means you're not.
• 23:44
  Rachel: You're saying you're.
• 23:46
  Rachel: You're delivering the message you have about the themes.
• 23:50
  Emily: Right.
• 23:50
  Rachel: Like, if your themes are love and class.
• 23:53
  Rachel: Well, what are you trying to say about love and class?
• 23:54
  Rachel: I'm trying to say love can overcome the obstacles of class.
• 23:58
  Rachel: Right.
• 23:59
  Rachel: Like, there is a message in there and that's different from the themes and.
• 24:04
  Rachel: Yeah. And I think what I was getting at earlier is like, you can deliver that message in different words in different ways in different scenes.
• 24:11
  Rachel: Right.
• 24:12
  Rachel: And you want that message to be present because if just having Love and Class available on the page in, like, what's going on, that's great.
• 24:20
  Rachel: But, like, you want it to be apparent on the page in a way that's delivering the message you have to say about the themes.
• 24:28
  Emily: Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:30
  Rachel: Cool.
• 24:31
  Emily: I don't know.
• 24:31
  Emily: I feel like there's, like, seriously, just.
• 24:33
  Emily: If your eyes are open to this, you will start to see it everywhere.
• 24:37
  Emily: And then you'll also notice, like, how popular Save the Cat is, especially in TV and film, because almost everyone uses it.
• 24:44
  Emily: I also think it's interesting to watch how this shows up in.
• 24:48
  Emily: In series.
• 24:49
  Emily: In like.
• 24:50
  Emily: Like a series of.
• 24:52
  Emily: Of shows in like an eight episode, you know, whatever it is, because it's.
• 24:57
  Emily: It is always there.
• 24:58
  Emily: But sometimes it comes in the first episode, sometimes it comes in the second episode.
• 25:02
  Emily: You know, Like, I think that's also.
• 25:05
  Emily: I like to pay attention to that because I'm thinking, oh, okay, well, if the first episode of this TV show is just the catalyst, at what point am I going to hear the theme?
• 25:14
  Emily: Is it going to happen in that episode or the next episode or et cetera.
• 25:20
  Emily: Yeah. People take a lot of different spins on this and how it works, but the important part is that it's there because it ultimately serves the character arcs.
• 25:29
  Emily: It serves the message of the story.
• 25:30
  Emily: Story, and it broadcasts.
• 25:33
  Emily: I also think it's important to Just as a final thought, It's important for a re.
• 25:42
  Emily: A viewer, a reader to know what the story is about, you know, so we feel grounded within it.
• 25:49
  Emily: And even if it's not like an obvious, I'm going to hit you over the head with this is the theme stated.
• 25:54
  Emily: This is what the story is about.
• 25:56
  Emily: I do think that a reader should know what the story is about.
• 26:00
  Emily: Otherwise it's.
• 26:01
  Emily: They feel lost.
• 26:02
  Emily: I feel disconnected.
• 26:03
  Emily: I don't, what are we doing?
• 26:05
  Emily: You know, I often have, like, that's my main, like, complaint when I'm reading books is like, what are we doing?
• 26:12
  Emily: Why are we here?
• 26:12
  Emily: Why do I care?
• 26:14
  Emily: You know, like, I don't feel grounded in what's happening, even if I understand what's happening, like the plot.
• 26:22
  Emily: So when you put the theme stated on the page and you, you're broadcasting to your reader, this is what the story's about, I do think it gives them a certain comfort that is familiar.
• 26:34
  Emily: I mean, that's the benefit of story structure, is that they, because we kind of innately understand and process these story structure models, it makes it an easier read, honestly.
• 26:48
  Emily: And that doesn't mean to that.
• 26:49
  Emily: I'm not saying it simplifies your story.
• 26:52
  Emily: Like, it makes it, like, it takes it down in intelligence, makes it easier for them to connect.
• 27:01
  Emily: And if they're not connecting, they put the book down.
• 27:04
  Rachel: Yeah, well, and it's.
• 27:06
  Rachel: I think it gives your subconscious, a reader's subconscious, something to kind of follow.
• 27:10
  Rachel: Right.
• 27:10
  Rachel: If, like, the theme stated is on, even if I'm not paying attention, the, if the theme stated is presented, then and it's like, you know, something to do with family and trust.
• 27:20
  Rachel: Right.
• 27:20
  Rachel: My brain is going to be okay.
• 27:22
  Rachel: I'm going to look for the choices about family and trust.
• 27:25
  Rachel: I'm going to start to wonder, like, what are characters going to do about those themes and about the message of the story.
• 27:30
  Rachel: Right.
• 27:30
  Rachel: And so, but it's also just like, I feel like if you, if you finish a draft, you're not, not necessarily a draft, but if you're like towards the end, Right.
• 27:42
  Rachel: Of working on a project.
• 27:43
  Rachel: Because I don't want to understate the importance of like, allowing this to develop over time.
• 27:50
  Rachel: Like, if you finish a first draft and you're like, there's no theme stated, that's fine, no problem.
• 27:55
  Rachel: But like, towards the end, right.
• 27:56
  Rachel: If you have a book and you don't have a theme stated, like, I'm going to wonder, do you have a message?
• 28:03
  Rachel: Because whether you meant to put a theme stated in or not, if you had a message for your story and the story is cohesively built around that message, it's gonna be there.
• 28:13
  Rachel: Like, it's gonna be in those early pages.
• 28:15
  Rachel: Again, not necessarily for a first draft, but like towards the final.
• 28:18
  Rachel: Like, if you don't have a message that's apparent in the if first act, then I think there's a big question mark as to whether you have one at all.
• 28:29
  Rachel: And so my focus, I think, I think my point is that your focus should be on what is your message and then how can you show it in your pages.
• 28:38
  Rachel: And like don't overthink the theme stated too much because I think it will naturally eventually come out.
• 28:44
  Emily: Yes.
• 28:45
  Rachel: Yeah. Worry about the message more than like making sure you check marked the beats.
• 28:49
  Rachel: Right?
• 28:50
  Emily: Exactly.
• 28:51
  Emily: I also just remembered last night Rose and I watched Hoppers.
• 28:55
  Emily: Have you seen that movie?
• 28:56
  Emily: Oh my gosh.
• 28:57
  Emily: It's so good.
• 28:59
  Emily: It was like, I think it's a sleeper.
• 29:02
  Emily: It's a sleeper hit.
• 29:03
  Emily: It's a Disney movie.
• 29:04
  Emily: It's a sleeper hit.
• 29:05
  Emily: It's so funny and it's so heartwarming and really like I think wonderful storytelling.
• 29:11
  Emily: It remind, it reminded me a lot of like Brad Bird and James Lasseter, James Lester.
• 29:20
  Emily: I can't remember like the golden era of Disney creativity.
• 29:25
  Emily: It reminded me a lot about, of that.
• 29:28
  Emily: But the main character, I actually.
• 29:31
  Emily: So I've watched this movie quite a few times now because it's, it's one that I, I think is hilarious and it also is like very accessible to children because it's about animals.
• 29:40
  Emily: Do you know anything about this?
• 29:41
  Emily: I know we need to wrap up the story or we need to wrap up this podcast, but I, I was watching this movie last night.
• 29:52
  Emily: It's a story of this, this 19 year old girl who has like an anger problem and she like loves this glade, this like nature glade with her grandmother and she's had an anger problem ever since she was a little girl.
• 30:10
  Emily: But it's basically just like misguided passion for animals where like she really loves animals and when they're not being treated properly she gets really angry and frustrated and she doesn't know how to like work through that anger and frustration which is somet such a great parallel to my own life, which I this probably why I really resonate with the movie.
• 30:29
  Emily: But anyway, her grandmother passes away and she's like left with this glade where her grandmother was telling her it's really hard to be angry when you feel like you're part of something big.
• 30:41
  Emily: And it was telling her to like get out into nature and to like see the movement around you and like see the animals around you and like take a breath.
• 30:50
  Emily: It that's kind of like how she's learning how to process this.
• 30:55
  Emily: And then the movie is about how the glade is being destroyed by the humans because they want to build this highway.
• 31:05
  Rachel: And how have I not seen this?
• 31:07
  Emily: Sounds like perfect for me.
• 31:09
  Rachel: So good.
• 31:10
  Emily: You should go watch it.
• 31:12
  Emily: It's so funny because the.
• 31:16
  Emily: The mayor is like the antagonist.
• 31:18
  Emily: The mayor of the town is the antagonist, and he's hilarious.
• 31:21
  Emily: And Mabel is the main character and she's hilarious, and they just like, fight each other.
• 31:25
  Emily: But all the animals leave the glade, which is why the mayor is given permission to build there.
• 31:32
  Emily: So there's this scientist who creates this hopper program that Mabel stumbles upon, where she's able to put her brain into the body of a beaver, like a robot beaver.
• 31:43
  Emily: So it's basically Avatar, but with beavers and with animals.
• 31:47
  Emily: And so she.
• 31:48
  Emily: It's called hopping.
• 31:50
  Emily: So she hops from her body into this robot beaver and then goes to try and figure out what happened to all the animals in the glade.
• 31:57
  Emily: And how can she get the animals back.
• 31:59
  Emily: Because her flawed plan is, if I can bring the animals back to the glade, Jerry, the mayor won't be able to build the highway and therefore, like, won't destroy this very important place to me and my grandma, who has now passed away.
• 32:12
  Emily: So there's one theme stated with her grandmother, which is when the grandmother tells her, like, it's very difficult to be mad when you're part of something big.
• 32:19
  Emily: Like, it's really hard to stay mad when you're part of something big.
• 32:22
  Emily: And then when she becomes a beaver, the.
• 32:24
  Emily: The.
• 32:26
  Emily: The Beaver King.
• 32:29
  Emily: The Beaver King also represents the story point.
• 32:32
  Emily: And truly his story point message to her is that all people are good deep down.
• 32:38
  Emily: And he has this very idyllic view of both humans and animals, that everyone just needs community support and all people are good deep down.
• 32:49
  Emily: And Mabel is like such a frustrating character because she refuses to see that message.
• 32:57
  Emily: I think that's truly like, she.
• 33:00
  Emily: She understands what her grandmother says, but it's hard for her to believe it because she believes that Jerry is bad.
• 33:07
  Emily: And she believes in general that humans are bad.
• 33:10
  Emily: And the beaver that like, all people are good deep down, shows her
• 33:17
  Rachel: all
• 33:17
  Emily: people are good deep down.
• 33:18
  Emily: And they go on this.
• 33:19
  Emily: It's so funny.
• 33:20
  Emily: They go on this, like hilarious hijinks of saving the glade.
• 33:23
  Emily: And then there's other antagonists that end up showing up because Mabel convinces the other animals to basically rise up against the humans.
• 33:36
  Rachel: And so then they.
• 33:37
  Emily: They have like this rebellion against the humans.
• 33:42
  Emily: But anyway, there are multiple themes stated messages that come from different characters.
• 33:48
  Emily: But it's like the culmination of all of them at once that ends up having Mabel, like, undergo her change.
• 33:55
  Emily: And what I also think this was going to be my point.
• 33:57
  Emily: What I also think is really interesting about Mabel is that her.
• 34:00
  Emily: You fully understand her rejection of the theme stated in the moment.
• 34:04
  Emily: Right.
• 34:04
  Emily: And she's a frustrating character because you can obviously see.
• 34:09
  Emily: See what her flaws are.
• 34:11
  Emily: But she's a very endearing character because she's so passionate and we've given her, like, something to love and believe in and to fight for.
• 34:19
  Emily: So when she's fighting for the animals, even though she's making, like, absolutely bonkers choices, like, wild choices, wild mistakes, we're still like, go, Mabel.
• 34:31
  Emily: Like, because we believe in what she's doing.
• 34:33
  Emily: And then the consequences just split, spiral into, like, absolute ridiculousness.
• 34:39
  Emily: But I wanted to bring that out of, like, go watch and, like, really study how these messages are presented and why the characters reject them.
• 34:51
  Emily: And I think if we can understand why the characters reject them, that also doesn't make us, like, angry at the characters.
• 34:58
  Emily: We're not like, oh, Mabel, you're so stupid.
• 35:01
  Emily: Right. We're like, no, I totally get why Mabel is this way.
• 35:05
  Emily: I can also clearly see what she needs to change about herself.
• 35:10
  Emily: Yeah. But I'm very, like, endeared to her and the choices that she's making.
• 35:14
  Emily: This is also my PSA that, like, don't sleep on Hoppers.
• 35:18
  Emily: It's such a funny movie.
• 35:20
  Emily: Everyone should go watch it.
• 35:21
  Emily: Yeah.
• 35:22
  Rachel: Well, I think that's a good reminder that, like, it's okay if, like, you're like, sometimes some of your readers are going to notice the theme state, or they're going to be like, oh, they're rejecting the theme of the story and this is their flaw.
• 35:38
  Rachel: And then sometimes they're not.
• 35:39
  Rachel: Sometimes they're going to be, like, bought into what the character believes.
• 35:42
  Rachel: And, like, that's the point.
• 35:43
  Rachel: Right.
• 35:43
  Rachel: Because you're trying to teach them something.
• 35:45
  Rachel: And so, you know, it doesn't as long as we understand why the main character is rejecting it.
• 35:52
  Rachel: Like, and so that's why I think I kind of like it when it's further in the act, because we get to see kind of, what are their goals, what are their wounds, what's happened to them, what do they believe?
• 36:02
  Rachel: What are they afraid of?
• 36:05
  Rachel: So we get to understand who they are as a person.
• 36:07
  Rachel: So when the theme.
• 36:08
  Rachel: When the story point is presented to them by another character and they reject it, we're like, ah, it makes sense you would reject that even if I wouldn't reject it because I understand why you are the way you are.
• 36:18
  Rachel: Yeah. So that's another whole function of Act 1, but this is a piece of it.
• 36:24
  Emily: I. To me, it does feel more natural post Catalyst.
• 36:28
  Emily: Yeah.
• 36:30
  Emily: All right.
• 36:31
  Emily: I mean, that's it.
• 36:31
  Emily: This was supposed to be another short episode, you guys.
• 36:35
  Emily: 15 minutes max.
• 36:38
  Rachel: On that note, it's a quick one.
• 36:41
  Emily: All right.
• 36:42
  Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 36:48
  Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 36:51
  Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 36:55
  Emily: Link is in the show notes.
• 36:56
  Emily: We'll see you there.
• 36:58
  Emily: Bye.
• 36:58
  Rachel: Bye.