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Glass Walls at Work: Why Women Get Passed Over (And the 6 Hidden Barriers Nobody Warns You About) · Loud & Lifted

0:00
We've all heard of the glass ceiling, that invisible
0:02
barrier at the top, but my guest today, Dr. Amy
0:05
Deal, argues the bigger issue is actually glass
0:08
walls, the barriers that block women sideways,
0:11
out of key rooms, roles, relationships, and opportunities
0:14
long before we even get to the top. Amy's a researcher
0:17
and the author of the book Glass Walls, and she
0:20
breaks workplace gender bias into six core barriers.
0:24
And the part I loved is this isn't just theory,
0:26
it's research -backed. full of real examples,
0:29
and comes with practical solutions. What leaders
0:31
need to fix, what allies can do in real time,
0:34
and what we can do as women so we don't internalize
0:36
a system that was never even designed for us.
0:39
Today's conversation is one I really want every
0:41
woman in leadership to hear. Because if you've
0:44
ever felt like you're doing everything right,
0:46
but still hitting invisible resistance, this
0:48
episode is for you. Welcome to Loud and Lifted.
0:52
Amy, thank you so much for being here. Thank
0:55
you for having me. Yes. I'm very excited about
0:58
this conversation because I think we've all heard
1:01
of glass ceilings, but you argue the bigger issue
1:04
is glass walls, barriers of black women sideways,
1:08
key roots, roles, and relationships. So before
1:11
we dig into the definition and what exactly a
1:15
glass wall is, let's talk about you and how did
1:19
you get here? How did you get to this point where
1:22
you'd written a book on glass walls? Yeah, so
1:26
I have a background in information technology.
1:29
When I went to college, I studied computer science
1:32
and was very male -dominated, as it still is,
1:36
unfortunately. I was one of only one or two women
1:40
in my classes. So there would be like 20 to 30
1:43
people in the class, 28 men, one or two women.
1:48
But I did well. I got all A's in college and
1:51
I really didn't know anything about Gender barriers.
1:55
I didn't think I thought the world I thought
1:57
that was all behind us You know the women were
2:00
equal and as long as I was willing to do the
2:05
work I would get the same rewards as my male
2:08
counterparts, right? And I found that that was
2:10
largely true in college, right? So then I go
2:13
into the world of work and I was very fortunate
2:15
when I stepped into my first role in the workplace
2:17
And that was that I had I had an internship when
2:21
I was in college and then later that turned into
2:23
a full -time job and there's two different managers
2:25
but the managers of the department it was a software
2:28
development department they were both women and
2:31
so I was very fortunate in that I was able to
2:35
see myself like they like I wanted to be like
2:37
them you know because here they were like they
2:40
were an information technology leader I thought
2:43
I see them doing it. I'm sure I can do it too,
2:46
right? That was sort of another signal to me
2:48
that, hey, you know, there are no barriers, you
2:51
know, that the world's equal place. Then I go
2:53
into my next role after that position where I
2:57
had to have more of a male leadership, at least
2:59
within the IT field. And again, more men than
3:04
women in my department. And that's when I started
3:07
to notice like... different things, strange things
3:10
happening. It was also whenever I started to
3:12
work my way up through the hierarchy. When I
3:15
was at that first role, I was in like the entry
3:17
level position. So, you know, one thing that
3:20
we found through this research is that the higher
3:22
that you move up, the stronger the barriers become.
3:24
So sometimes you may not notice them when you're
3:26
at the entry level. Right. Or notice them as
3:29
strongly. But regardless, when I started working
3:32
then, in my second role and started moving up
3:35
in leadership. That's whenever I really started
3:37
to have these strange things that were happening
3:39
to me that were not happening to my male counterparts.
3:42
And so what I was doing was I was wanting to
3:45
learn how to lead. And so to do that, I watched
3:48
the men who are around me. I watched my colleagues
3:51
and I tried to emulate them. For example, I tried
3:54
to be authoritative with my leadership. Like
3:56
if a decision needed to be made. Okay, I'll make
3:59
it. But what I found was that my male counterparts
4:02
could make the decision and they would get no
4:04
pushback. I would get pushback and I would lose
4:07
points, lose respect from the male subordinates
4:11
or from my colleagues. And I thought, well, I
4:14
must be doing something wrong. There are a few
4:17
other things that happened. One of the things
4:19
was that I was actually actively discouraged
4:22
from joining the women's group at my workplace.
4:27
At the time, I didn't think anything of it. Again,
4:29
it's kind of coming in from that mindset of,
4:31
the world's an equal place. We don't need that
4:33
anymore. I think back on that. I did later join
4:37
their group, but in the beginning about how much
4:40
more support I could have gotten if I had...
4:44
joined them earlier and understanding of what
4:46
was happening. But also another strange thing
4:49
was that I found that oftentimes it was women,
4:53
certain women, not all women, not most women,
4:55
but there were certain women in the organization
4:57
that were just not kind to me, just weren't nice.
5:00
And at the time I was doing computer troubleshooting.
5:03
And so I'm like, I'm just here to help you with
5:05
your computer. I don't know why am I sensing
5:08
the classility or something. And again, it was
5:12
only a handful of women, but it was just so unexpected
5:15
because, you know, you just come into a situation
5:17
like that thinking we're women, we're, you know,
5:19
like, we're here, we should be supporting each
5:21
other. And that wasn't happening. So I took that
5:25
all personally. I thought, like, I was doing
5:27
something wrong. I must be leading wrong. I must
5:30
be, you know, my inner personal interactions
5:33
must be something wrong. It was it was several
5:37
years later when I started a PhD program that
5:40
I guess I started at some point I started to
5:42
pick up on the idea that maybe it wasn't just
5:45
me like and I started to also pick up on there
5:47
are like women are experiencing barriers and
5:49
I wanted to really dig into that and and Figure
5:52
out what barriers were women experiencing that
5:55
men often weren't So I started a PhD program.
5:59
Throughout that program, I took the time to research,
6:02
do as much literature review on barriers that
6:04
were affecting women as I could. I did a dissertation
6:07
where I interviewed 26 women leaders in higher
6:11
education about their experiences with adversity
6:14
and with professional barriers. And the whole
6:18
PhD program dissertation research was just eye
6:21
-opening. But from that, I went to a conference
6:25
where I met my now co -author Dr. Leanne Dubinsky
6:27
and we started talking and we realized that we
6:30
had a very similar dissertation research on different
6:33
populations of women. I had looked at women and
6:37
their challenges in higher education. She had
6:39
looked at women in faith -based nonprofits. And
6:43
so it was both, it was qualitative research where
6:46
we had done interviews. So we were able to put
6:48
our research sets, our data sets together and
6:51
like look at them holistically and pull out all
6:55
of the barriers, all of the distinct barriers
6:56
that we found women experiencing. And we also
7:00
realized there was more similarities to what
7:03
they were experiencing than there were differences,
7:05
which really led us to the conclusion that it
7:08
wasn't so much the type of an organization or
7:10
the industry that a woman worked in, it more
7:12
had to do with women in leadership or women in
7:17
fields that were not originally women's fields
7:20
or where women were, you know, underrepresented.
7:23
certain fields, that we were able to scientifically
7:27
derive the six core barriers. One of the six
7:29
core factors of this nebulous concept, this concept
7:33
we think of as nebulous, being gender bias. And
7:36
so we pulled those out. And the book Glass Walls
7:41
comes from that research. So it's a scientifically
7:44
research -driven book where we talk about workplace
7:49
gender bias, what makes up workplace gender bias,
7:52
and we give lots of examples from everyday women,
7:56
from women who are more prominent, as well as
7:59
giving solutions. And we have solutions for women
8:03
or not. just for women, solutions for everyone.
8:07
So solutions for anyone who's a leader, solutions
8:09
for anybody who's an ally in the workplace, and
8:11
then solutions for the women themselves. Great.
8:14
And it's funny, as you're saying that, oh, you're
8:16
talking about higher ed, you were surprised to
8:18
find somebody in a nonprofit having the same
8:20
experience. And I'm sitting here shaking my head
8:23
from a corporate standpoint that... Yes. I mean,
8:26
the higher I went up, the more challenging it
8:28
became and had the same things in a corporate
8:31
environment. So I agree. It doesn't matter your
8:33
industry. We're all facing these same challenges.
8:36
It just might show up a little different. So
8:38
let's talk about the glass wall. We hear about
8:41
glass ceilings and we kind of think we know that
8:43
definition. What's your definition of the walls
8:45
and how is it different than the ceiling? Yeah,
8:48
well, the ceiling is a concept that has been
8:49
around for a long time. And I think it's a very,
8:52
very real concept. And the idea of the glass
8:54
ceiling is that there's a certain level that
8:59
women can rise to and they have to break through
9:01
it in any industry or any given maybe organization.
9:04
And if you think about the highest glass ceiling
9:06
in the United States, it would be the US presidency.
9:09
And that's one that's still there. We've seen
9:12
women. We've had now two women candidates for
9:15
president, neither of whom were successful. So
9:19
that one is still, unfortunately, firmly intact.
9:21
So we think about that concept as as you move
9:23
up, it's higher and higher. You're going to break
9:25
through the ceiling. Well, when we did the research,
9:28
what we realized was it's more than a glass ceiling.
9:30
Really, these barriers are walls. They're invisible.
9:33
Barriers that are all that they surround us and
9:35
no matter which way a woman turns she's running
9:37
into something that you can't see She doesn't
9:39
know until she runs into it. That's something
9:42
you know that there's a barrier there, but it's
9:44
it's there and so we conceptualize the six core
9:48
factors six core barriers of Gender bias as glass
9:52
walls. It's just a very powerful metaphor for
9:55
what women women are experiencing. It's more
9:57
holistic than than the It's inclusive, it's additive
10:02
to the glass ceiling metaphor, yeah. Yeah, and
10:05
when you just said that, I'm visualizing that,
10:06
when you can't see, you turn around to the corner,
10:09
you're running into a barrier you didn't even
10:11
know was there, and that's such a great visual,
10:14
and a fortunate visual, but a great visual that
10:16
you're like, oh, okay, I see why that's different.
10:19
So let's dig into those six walls. What are they?
10:23
The first one is male privilege. We conceptualize
10:25
male privilege as it's really the bedrock from
10:28
which all of the other barriers flow. It's this
10:32
idea that workplaces were developed by men for
10:38
men. In fact, institutions were developed by
10:40
men for men with men's needs in mind without
10:44
really considering what women may need if they
10:47
were in the same roles in those institutions.
10:49
And unfortunately, we have so many remnants of
10:51
that type of environment today within our within
10:55
our culture, within our workplace cultures. One
10:57
example is the example is the boys with the Boys
11:01
Club, where, you know, you're in an organization
11:03
and the conversations are revolving around topics
11:06
that typically interest men like sports or cars
11:09
or drinking or the social activities, you know,
11:13
are typical or things that are, again, more typically
11:16
male oriented. or even social activities being
11:20
after hours when it can be hard for somebody
11:23
who has like caretaking responsibilities to attend
11:26
and maybe if they even want to attend right if
11:29
it's even something that like golf is maybe one
11:32
of the the examples there's nothing wrong with
11:35
golf I have nothing you know no issue with the
11:38
sport in of itself but When the men are making
11:41
connections and making decisions out on the golf
11:43
course without including women, that becomes
11:46
a problem. Oh, absolutely. Season one, we had
11:49
the founder of She Said Golf who loves golf.
11:52
But part of the thing was from a business perspective,
11:54
you know, there's conversations, there's relations
11:56
being built and women aren't there. So her goal
11:58
was to get. women more comfortable on a golf
12:01
course, which ties into that perfectly. Another
12:03
example of male privilege is masculine language
12:07
in the workplace. If you think about the word,
12:11
I wrote an article for Fast Company on the use
12:15
of the word guys. I grew up in Pennsylvania and
12:20
in my area of Pennsylvania, the plural for you
12:24
is you guys. I still have that habit today, which
12:28
I his lesson, but I try to break, of saying you
12:31
guys, when it's a group of, even when it's a
12:34
group of all women or mixed gender group. So
12:37
I wrote an article for Fast Company about how
12:39
guys really isn't gender neutral. And that even
12:44
if you intended, you as a speaker intended to
12:46
be gender neutral, the person on the, the person
12:48
who's, you know, in the member of the group may
12:51
not receive it, receive it that way. But there's,
12:53
you know, there's other types of like words,
12:56
like if you think about some of the words that
12:57
we use, like man hours, right? I mean, we can
13:02
change those words. It can be staff hours, right?
13:04
There's often easy words. And, you know, some
13:07
of the some norms are changing, like Like it
13:11
used to always be congressman or councilman,
13:14
councilman. And you see some of those things
13:17
changing to more gender neutral alternatives.
13:19
But that's like one of the very subtle ways,
13:21
you know, that it's male, the men, the men in
13:26
the organization are privileged, you know, and
13:27
the women are kind of made invisible. That's
13:30
so true. And it becomes so used that you don't
13:32
even realize it. Most people aren't. doing it
13:34
to be malicious or to exclude anyone. That's
13:36
how it's been, we've been raised, right? That's
13:39
like the normal form of communication, but that
13:41
goes back to the bias piece of it. Yep, exactly.
13:45
So go on to number two is disproportionate constraints.
13:48
So what women often find in organizations is
13:50
they're allowed in for sure, but they're choices
13:53
in their behaviors are constrained in comparison
13:56
to the men, to the men in the organization. So
13:59
one way that happens is that women's voices are
14:01
often muted, like literally muted. And that can
14:04
occur by just being interrupted and over talked
14:06
in meetings. It can occur by, there's a term,
14:10
we didn't coin this term, but there's a term
14:11
that we highlight in the book called heap heating.
14:14
And heap heating is when a man says something,
14:18
excuse me, when a woman says something in a meeting
14:20
and it's ignored. And then a man says the same
14:22
thing. everyone loves it, right? Oh, yeah. Okay.
14:26
Like, I never heard that word, but definitely
14:27
heard that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure
14:29
you've seen that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's another
14:32
way that women's voices and their contributions
14:34
are muted, even if unintentionally, right? And
14:38
then sometimes it is more intentional, you know,
14:40
where their ideas are just taken. We call it
14:42
appropriating. If somebody actively takes their
14:45
idea and, you know, if a man takes the woman's
14:48
idea and actively claims, you know, credit for
14:51
it. Do you think some of that ties into, because
14:54
we talked about this in other episodes, like
14:56
the delivery and the confidence. Like if you're
14:58
not sitting in a meeting, very confident, very,
15:01
not even outspoken, but just, you know, presence
15:04
and delivery of your message is very confident.
15:08
And sometimes women struggle with that. So is
15:09
that part of that is just our delivery of messages?
15:12
Well, I would say yes, yes and no. Certainly
15:15
confidence is good for everyone to have, like,
15:17
you know, everyone to have, but, or just... display,
15:20
I guess. But the problem becomes for women, there's
15:24
a fine line between if a woman comes across as
15:29
too confident or overconfident, she's going to
15:31
get backlash. So that's why you often see women
15:34
in settings where they'll use tentative language.
15:38
This is what I think this or I believe this,
15:41
where maybe the man next to her is just saying,
15:42
this is it as a fact. She knows that she may
15:47
get pushback if she doesn't frame her words more
15:52
tentatively. I think the solution to that is
15:56
that everybody should be using tentative language
16:00
when it makes sense and using the more confident
16:02
language when it makes sense. For the man who
16:06
gets away with speaking in an overconfident way,
16:08
it'd be nice if he would say, well, I think this
16:10
is what it is when he's not sure. because there's
16:12
nothing wrong with either communication style
16:15
is just the fact that tend to think well this
16:18
man is speaking confidently so it must be correct
16:20
and we just make that assumption right yeah absolutely
16:22
yeah that's interesting yeah yeah also in disproportionate
16:27
constraints another type of constraint is scrutiny
16:29
um where women's behavior their performance and
16:32
their dress and their appearance are scrutinized
16:35
in ways above and beyond that of that of men
16:38
right we see that and you know um certainly in
16:42
women who are in the public eye. But thinking
16:44
about the presidential candidates, one anecdote
16:47
I have is when former Vice President Kamala Harris
16:51
was running for president, the New York Times
16:53
had an article about her dress. And in the article,
16:59
it had four pictures of her side by side, and
17:01
she was in pantsuits. So she was like literally
17:03
wearing the female alternative of the male suit,
17:06
right? Yeah. And the sub headlines was, but Does
17:11
she look presidential? Oh, my God. You know,
17:14
and like she's literally wearing the female alternative
17:18
to the male suit. And that's the that's the question
17:21
that the article posed. Right. You know, just
17:24
that's an example, of course, somebody who is
17:25
very, very visible. But this kind of thing happens
17:28
to women even in less visible positions as soon
17:32
as you know. And it can be used as an excuse.
17:35
you know to not take the woman seriously or to
17:38
you know dismiss her ideas or you know to not
17:41
you know give her that promotion well you know
17:43
whatever nitpicky thing um i recall i when i
17:47
was doing my dissertation research i was interviewing
17:50
a person who was a provost the woman who was
17:52
a provost at the time and she gave me the story
17:54
she said i served on the search committee one
17:56
time and we had a candidate who had wonderful
18:00
credentials and she interviewed very well But
18:03
there was a person on the search committee and
18:04
it was another woman who said, but she wasn't
18:07
wearing pantyhose. And so this woman that I was
18:11
interviewing was like I wasn't even looking at
18:13
her leg She's like I was listening to her ideas,
18:15
but she said I was just so appalled You know
18:17
that somebody was calling out the fact that she
18:18
wasn't wearing pantyhose and that oh my gosh
18:21
The hard part about that is when you bring something
18:23
like that in a committee setting It can like
18:25
derail the whole like, you know, you put it like
18:27
kind of a negative idea and you know an unfair
18:30
negative idea but still put that in somebody's
18:33
mind and that can be a reason to dismiss them
18:35
from or remove them from consideration for the
18:38
world. That's crazy. Yeah. And there's such a
18:40
scale, right? Like you hear people make comments
18:43
if you're not attractive and maybe you're overweight
18:46
and you just, you don't look the part, right?
18:48
You don't have the executive presence. That's
18:50
their, you know, excuse. She doesn't have the
18:51
executive presence for that. But then on the
18:53
other hand, if someone's too attractive, it's
18:55
like, oh, she thinks she's pretty, her shirt's
18:59
low cut or she wears whatever it is. Like, it's
19:01
like, you can't be too pretty, right? It's like
19:05
you have to find this middle ground that's, quote,
19:07
appropriate for men and women. It's not just
19:10
a man thing. To your point, I think women are
19:13
quick to be super judgy of how somebody looks
19:15
physically, which is crazy. So yeah, that's a
19:19
big one for sure. Yeah, absolutely. We wrote
19:20
an article also. It is in Fast Company about
19:24
lookism. Bias it gets to this exact point and
19:27
the point we make in the article is that Like
19:30
for like look ism as a concept has been defined
19:32
as a beauty bias So the idea being that attractive
19:35
people get benefits and unattractive people don't
19:38
and there's certainly something to be said for
19:39
that But it really didn't the the concept really
19:43
did not before our article did not separate out
19:45
the differences between men and women. And so
19:49
what we found for women is that it's just what
19:51
you said. It didn't matter whether they are considered
19:53
unattractive or whether they were considered
19:56
attractive. Either case could be used as an excuse
19:59
to discount them or to not consider them or whatever
20:05
the situation is. Yeah. Men do not get that amount
20:09
of feedback. No. About how they show up and what
20:13
their outfit looks like or how their hair is.
20:15
Yeah, I'll go on to number three to keep us moving.
20:18
Insufficient support. So this is the idea that
20:21
women don't get as much support in the workplace
20:23
as men. And it includes things that we've heard
20:27
of like lack of mentoring, lack of having a sponsor.
20:31
We talked a little bit earlier about being excluded,
20:33
excluded from unofficial social events, sometimes
20:35
being excluded from formal events. And so all
20:39
of this plays into you don't have the support.
20:42
So you if you don't have the support, you can't,
20:46
you can't, you know, move. It's hard to move
20:48
up. And it's also one thing we found in the research
20:51
is that we'll talk about harassment in a minute,
20:54
but there was a study that compared workplace
20:56
ostracism to workplace harassment in terms of
21:00
the turnover. And what it found was that women
21:05
were actually more likely to stay if they had
21:07
been harassed compared to if they had been ostracized.
21:10
And That seems like counterintuitive, but in
21:13
some ways it makes sense in the fact, in the
21:15
sense if you think about, well, the woman is
21:16
harassed and especially if she's supported throughout
21:20
that experience or after that experience, like
21:23
if there's an investigation or if the person
21:28
is talked to or whatever, like if she's got some
21:30
support after being harassed, she's gonna feel
21:33
like, okay, this organization is backing me up
21:36
and I can move forward and think. hopefully know
21:39
that that's not going to happen again. But if
21:40
you're ostracized, you really just don't have
21:41
any support. You don't have anything. So you
21:44
just are really feeling alone. And so that becomes
21:50
the thing that's the higher likelihood of somebody
21:53
leaving an organization. Makes sense. Very, very
21:56
interesting. Yeah, and it's funny because, you
21:58
know, the insufficient support, like, and this
22:00
has come up throughout the first season, right?
22:03
Like, it was the support professionally from
22:05
a mentor and the exposure and sponsors, but then
22:08
it was also the support at home, right? Like
22:11
having that ability to be a mom, raise your kids,
22:13
aging parents, whatever that cycle of your life
22:16
that you're in. But, you know, people feel they're
22:18
not supported, then they're not going to, oh,
22:20
we can get into ambition. Yeah. Not have, you
22:23
know, that ability to continue to grow. you know,
22:27
you have to make choices and priorities. Yeah.
22:30
And it's also extends into like, like organizational
22:33
and public support. So, and what I mean by that
22:35
is like organizations having good parental leave
22:39
policies, good sick leave policies, you know,
22:43
all the supports that we need so we can work
22:45
and have, you know, kids or family life or personal
22:50
life. By not providing those supports, it's really,
22:53
I look at it and it's like, it's just really
22:54
so short -sighted because we're doing harm to
22:57
the overall economy, right? And it's not harm
23:00
that you can see day in, day out. Maybe you think
23:03
about day in, day out, but if you look at the
23:05
aggregate and you have to expand your mind a
23:08
little bit to think about the things that we're
23:09
missing, I think about it in terms of the things
23:11
we're missing out on. If we don't have women
23:15
and women's perspectives and women's ideas, in
23:18
the workplace. We don't even know what we're
23:20
missing out on in terms of innovations, of growth
23:22
for companies, of all kinds of things. No, and
23:26
everybody has this debate over the work from
23:28
home, work in an office, hybrid, whatever it
23:30
is. At the end of the day, it comes down to being
23:33
flexible and being able to like, hey, I have
23:35
to leave. My kid has a show. I have a doctor's
23:38
appointment, whatever it is. It's companies that
23:40
lack flexibility, which is a lot of them that
23:42
just get your work done. And that's what I would
23:44
always say. I don't care when you work, just
23:46
get done what needs to be done and make sure
23:48
you're there, you know, for the team or whoever
23:50
needs stuff. But like you just get hung up on
23:53
stuff that doesn't really make sense to get hung
23:55
up on like where you're physically working. Yeah.
23:58
Yeah. And it's, I think it's also, there's a
24:00
couple of things there. It's like a relic to
24:02
like people, sometimes managers don't feel comfortable
24:06
whenever they can't see their people. Um, you
24:09
know, you know, but I would, I would counter
24:12
that with like, we've always been distributed,
24:14
you know, when I, I've been working on university
24:16
campuses, for example. And while the campus is
24:18
within, my campuses have been within a confined
24:21
area. It's not like we're all in the same building,
24:23
right? Like we're in different buildings. Like
24:25
we have to use, you know, email or whatever,
24:28
you know. other tools to connect, the phone and
24:32
stuff. It's the same thing if my coworker is
24:35
in another town or another state. You can still
24:38
be connected. Absolutely. It's about learning
24:40
how to be a good manager. Yeah, and you can waste
24:44
time in the office. I think back to my early
24:46
days when I was in office five days a week and
24:47
people would ... be in the office, say 50 or
24:50
60 hours, but they're in somebody's cube. They
24:52
went to lunch for two hours. They're scrolling
24:55
on, well, it wasn't social media back then, but
24:57
they're scrolling on the website, whatever it
24:58
is. You can always be distracted and not do your
25:01
job. It might matter if your boss is right beside
25:03
you. The number four is devaluation. So devaluation
25:07
is when women are made to seem as unimportant
25:10
or less than. And I'll give you a couple examples.
25:15
One is office housework. If you don't know what
25:18
office housework is, that is doing all of the
25:21
non -career enhancing work. So it's things like
25:25
taking notes in a meeting, cleaning the office
25:28
refrigerator, planning the office party, ordering
25:30
the catering, maybe doing the meeting scheduling.
25:35
And even it can be just helping a colleague with
25:38
a project. Like you're helping a colleague with
25:40
their project, but you don't get credit for it.
25:43
Right. That's another type of office housework.
25:45
And so the thing about office housework is it's
25:48
so important to keep the organization running
25:50
smoothly, but it's often not recognized or rewarded.
25:55
And women are also often under social pressure
25:57
to volunteer. for these tasks. A man can just
26:01
say, I'm busy. Okay, you're busy. A woman says,
26:03
I'm busy. It's like, well, who are you? That
26:06
becomes the issue with office housework. My solution
26:10
to that is that you should either hire an administrative
26:12
assistant type person who that's their job function
26:15
or reward it for the other people who are the
26:18
people in your organization and make sure it's
26:20
equally shared. Sure. I've definitely seen that
26:23
happen. Even we tried to create like a committee
26:25
to be sort of like a team building committee
26:28
and it came into the catering, the orders, the
26:30
events. I think once or twice there was a man
26:32
on the committee and I remember them not doing
26:34
it. It's not their strength. That's okay. Let's
26:37
figure out something else that you can do, but
26:39
let's just be honest and upfront about it. most
26:42
of them are not going to do it. Not everybody,
26:44
but most. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Another
26:46
type is something called benevolent sexism. And
26:50
so we often think of sexism as like the hostile
26:53
type, which is more, which is more overt, but
26:55
benevolent sexism, it's when words, it's when
26:58
actions... or words sound kind, but they're not.
27:02
So it can be like comments on women's appearance,
27:05
like, oh, she looks pretty sitting over there,
27:09
or like telling women to smile, which is actually
27:11
a type of emotional labor. But it's also like
27:15
not giving women opportunities. in a benevolent,
27:20
seemingly benevolent attempt to protect them
27:22
or protect their time. So let's say a woman has
27:24
just had a child. Well, not giving her opportunity
27:26
for promotion or for travel or for critical assignments
27:32
without even asking her, without even getting
27:34
her opinions on it. So that happens far too often.
27:42
I'll give you an example. the devaluation, this
27:45
kind of thing that happened to me. I was in a
27:49
meeting at my workplace and maybe a year or so
27:52
ago and there were three colleagues of mine plus
27:55
an older gentleman who was a vendor, he was an
27:58
architect. He referred to me as young lady and
28:02
he wasn't being, like he wasn't, I could tell
28:05
he wasn't trying to be unkind. He was trying
28:07
to put me in like a, you know, it was like a
28:10
seemingly kind way, a seemingly nice way to try
28:12
to put me in my in a place underneath him, like
28:15
in the, you know, whatever hierarchy there was.
28:18
But it comes across as kind, like it comes across
28:21
selling like it's kind, he's calling me young.
28:23
I don't fit in what I would consider the young
28:26
category anymore, my actual age or whatever,
28:30
right? But he, I think in his mind, he was thinking,
28:34
I don't know what he was thinking, but it comes,
28:37
it's definitely a put down, right? But it comes
28:39
across as like you're saying something that's...
28:41
It's seemingly, seemingly kind, but it's not.
28:44
And I do wonder sometimes because I had somebody
28:46
we worked with who, he was in his sixties, I
28:50
would say. And I think he was a little, I guess,
28:54
stereotypical, not putting women on the same
28:55
level. And part of it maybe was how he was, you
28:58
know, most of his career, but he would call women
29:01
who were in their thirties, girls, and he'd call
29:03
them something else. And I'm totally blanking,
29:05
but I literally said to him, I'm saying, can
29:06
you please stop? referring to them as girls like
29:09
they're in their 30s like this is and he's like
29:11
oh and he he didn't take it well and he kept
29:14
doing it anyway but i'm like i just you know
29:16
i think his was intentional i think sometimes
29:18
it's intentional sometimes they're oblivious
29:20
but there's some who's just like oh we are not
29:22
on the same level as me so i'm gonna you know
29:25
put these labels on you And you can sometimes
29:27
tell if it's intentional or not, because when
29:29
you do call it out, and if you call it out and
29:31
it's not intentional, often the person will be
29:33
like, oh, I wasn't thinking. I'm so sorry. They'll
29:36
try to do better versus taking it personally
29:40
or just continuing behavior. this category devaluation
29:46
we talk about in the book, pet names and diminutives.
29:50
And so in addition to girls, we found women still
29:52
being called like sweetie or honey or sweetheart,
29:56
like just these little pet names that are often
29:58
used in the home or in romantic relationships,
30:01
but they're not appropriate for a professional
30:03
relationship in the workplace yet. We found women
30:07
reported still hearing them. Interesting. Yeah.
30:12
Number five, hostility. Hostility is the most
30:17
overt form of bias. The goal of hostility is
30:25
to keep women in their place, like to keep them
30:29
in their supposed place underneath the men and
30:31
the gender hierarchy. Because what you'll find,
30:33
I think... is that often hostility, harassment,
30:37
for example, of women can be much worse in the
30:40
very male -dominated fields, like the trades,
30:42
for example, or fields that are just so heavily
30:46
men. When the women are being harassed in those
30:49
situations, they're being told, like, you don't
30:52
belong here, you know? And they're being told,
30:55
like, your role is to be in the home, to be...
31:00
whatever, but not to be in the workplace competing
31:02
for the male jobs. Right. Or certainly have to
31:06
report to one. Yeah. Okay. And then last, we'll
31:09
go to my last barrier, acquiescence. So acquiescence
31:13
is a result, as a result of all of the other
31:16
barriers women often acquiesce to their supposed
31:18
place in the male normed culture. And this can
31:23
be through things like self -silencing, like
31:25
being silent, like not speaking up on behalf
31:28
of other women or behalf of themselves, if bias
31:31
or sexism occurs to them. Also can happen is
31:35
that they limit their own aspirations. And when
31:39
women limit their aspirations, it's for one of
31:41
two reasons. One is because they've internalized
31:44
all the other barriers and they really believe
31:45
they aren't capable. Like I'm not capable of
31:48
being whatever, whether it's the next level up
31:50
in the hierarchy or doing something else. They
31:53
believe they're not capable, which we call a
31:56
psychological glass ceiling. The other type is
31:59
when women know they think they are, they know
32:02
they're capable, but they just don't want the
32:03
hassles. They don't want the hassles of moving
32:06
up, right? They've seen what's happened to them,
32:09
they've seen what's happened to other women,
32:10
and they just are like, I'm going to stay where
32:13
I'm at and save my emotional sanity. mental and
32:17
emotional sanity and my physical health too.
32:21
We know that the stress also impacts physical
32:24
health. So they're making, whenever women limit
32:25
their aspirations like that, they're making a
32:27
very rational choice. Acquiescence sounds like,
32:30
okay, this is like, the things in this chapter
32:33
often sound like, well, that's just the women's
32:34
choice. Like the work -life conflict is one thing
32:37
we talk about. Well, this woman is like choosing
32:40
to, you know, she wants to stay home with the
32:43
children and you know, whatever. She's choosing
32:47
that or she's choosing a lower paying job. Well,
32:50
it's often it's a bigger It's like first of all
32:52
the workplace isn't providing supports, you know,
32:55
like good childcare. That's affordable where
32:57
she could you know, she could go to work It's
33:01
all it's all it's all a response right to everything
33:04
else in the environment It's not just a woman.
33:06
It's usually not just a woman making a decision
33:08
because this is really really really what I prefer
33:10
It's like I'm making this decision because this
33:12
is the way society is set up. Yep Yeah, it's
33:15
so true. And it goes back to the whole McKinsey
33:17
with their research about that. Women don't have
33:20
the same ambition as men. And it's true, but
33:23
it's not for the reasons that it's portrayed.
33:26
It's just choices because you're fighting an
33:28
uphill battle, you're stressed, you're not sleeping,
33:31
your anxiety's through the roof because you're
33:33
in the situation where you're not supported and
33:35
you don't have the infrastructure to be able
33:38
to be successful. So I think that's the challenge.
33:42
And you're right, people are like, oh, well,
33:43
they're just they just choose to, you know, focus
33:45
on their family. Well, you can do both with the
33:48
right support. But again, there's choices, there's
33:51
sacrifices. And you know, it's making that decision
33:53
of how many sacrifices you have to make. And
33:55
do you want to deal with the higher up you go,
33:58
right? Like people just sort of get into this
34:00
mindset of, oh, I want to get promoted. I want
34:02
to be a VP. I want to be a CEO because it's more
34:04
money. It's a bigger title. It's power. But they
34:07
don't see all the stuff behind the curtain that
34:09
you're dealing with one to get there, but then
34:12
two to stay there and what the sacrifices are
34:15
that have to be made. And some do. And that's
34:17
why they're like... I'm good. I just need to
34:18
make a decent pay. I want to be able to support
34:21
my family. I like to work. I'm motivated. I want
34:24
to contribute. But it's that give and take that
34:27
I think women end up being more realistic about
34:29
because they realize what it takes and it's not
34:33
fun. So what's it worth? Right. I think the point
34:36
you're highlighting is so true. When you read
34:38
the findings from McKinsey, which were that there
34:42
was a gap overall in their Report it was 69 percent
34:48
of early career women wanted a promotion versus
34:50
80 percent of their male peers and the senior
34:52
level was 84 percent of women uh versus 92 of
34:56
the percent of their male peers Like that can
35:00
be framed easily, um, or too easily as okay.
35:03
Like it's just a woman's choice. She doesn't
35:04
she's not ambitious But it really is a response.
35:07
Like you're saying, it really is a response to
35:08
all of the other societal lack of support and
35:12
the barriers that women face and that they know
35:15
that they'll face. Yeah. Oh, it's crazy. Well,
35:17
we're getting close on our time, but all six,
35:21
I have lived it, breathed it, done it, survived
35:23
it, sometimes cried about it, whatever it is.
35:26
And you mentioned that you talk about solutions.
35:28
So I know there are six that are very different.
35:31
How do we move forward? Like, how as women do
35:34
we overcome these gender biases in a, I mean,
35:37
I wish there was a magic wand, that'd be much
35:39
easier, but you know, what's sort of like the
35:41
approach to this to be able to move forward?
35:43
Yeah, well, first of all, the approach in the
35:45
book is that we put the onus on leaders in organizations
35:49
to fix the culture and to fix the environment
35:51
and to be supportive of women and make sure that
35:53
they've got equal pay and make sure that they've
35:55
got all the same supports that their men have
35:57
and make sure that, you know, that there's a
36:00
fair playing field uh you know for you know for
36:03
the women and so in the book like i said we have
36:06
solutions for leaders allies and individual women
36:09
and we have a whole chapter for leaders where
36:12
we have a um what's called a gender equity and
36:15
inclusion roadmap it's from level zero to level
36:18
five level zero is sticking your head in the
36:19
mud as an organization and doing absolutely nothing
36:21
which most organizations aren't there level one
36:24
is like compliance level two is doing ad hoc
36:26
things and then it goes up to full full inclusion
36:29
and full equity and inclusion, which is a very,
36:34
it's an ideal point to get to. I will say, I
36:37
don't think any company is actually at that point
36:40
because it's just so unfortunately so infiltrated
36:43
in our society. But you can use this roadmap
36:47
to see where is your organization on this continuum
36:50
and it gives you steps for like what you can
36:52
do to get yourself, you know. up the road and
36:56
improve, exactly. So we have that for leaders.
37:01
Then we talk about steps for allies, which I'll
37:04
summarize as really coming and being supportive
37:06
of women, speaking up for them on behalf of them.
37:11
The quick example is if they're interrupted in
37:13
a meeting, throwing it. throwing the conversation
37:16
back to them, if they're being heap -heated,
37:19
stepping in and saying something like, hey, Maria
37:21
just said that, let's hear more about what she
37:23
has to say. And then it also goes to, sometimes
37:28
it can just be being a confidant, a listening
37:32
ear to women who need someone to talk to and
37:38
need support. It also can mean identifying, looking
37:42
around, thinking about the women in your workplace
37:43
and And thinking about them in the same terms
37:46
of as men like if you see your male counterpart
37:49
has potential for that next Promotion. Well think
37:52
about what other women counterparts also have
37:55
Colleagues also have that same potential right
37:57
and suggest them actively suggest them to To
38:00
leaders or if you're on a search committee, you
38:02
know, you know speak speak out and also actively
38:05
look for for biasing and counter it and by that
38:10
I mean there's a Simple test. It's called flip
38:13
it to test it and What you do is if you hear
38:16
if you hear a criticism of a woman like she's
38:19
not wearing pantyhose you think Would that same
38:22
thing be said of a man? Would anybody be commenting
38:25
on a man's legs in the context of an interview?
38:28
No. So then you know that it's unfair. Or another
38:34
one that's unfortunately maybe more common is
38:38
we're not going to hire her or give her that
38:39
promotion because she's going to have a baby
38:41
or she might have a baby or call it maybe baby
38:44
bias. We never say that about men. It doesn't
38:47
matter if they're going to be a parent or not.
38:51
But then for women, okay? So, because when it
38:54
comes, you know, we all want to know like, what
38:56
can we do, you know? And while we don't put in
38:59
the book, we don't put the onus on women to like
39:02
rectify this. entire problem, we do give strategies
39:05
for women to help, you know, to navigate the
39:08
issue, certainly mitigate it and to what we call
39:11
it as taking charge of your own success. And
39:14
so, you know, the first thing is becoming aware
39:15
of bias, learning as much as you can about it,
39:18
learning to recognize it. That's the kind of
39:20
the point of the book is that we pull all the
39:23
different examples out so that when you're going
39:25
through your workday or your career, if you run
39:27
into something, you can say, I know what this
39:29
is. As soon as you can say, I know what this
39:32
is, that can help you to not take it personally.
39:34
Sure. Because the next thing is depersonalize.
39:36
If it happens to you, know that it's not specific
39:40
to you. It's not about you. It's about something,
39:42
unfortunately, bigger, right? But it happens
39:44
to all of us. Just being able to depersonalize
39:47
can help you deal with it in a more rational,
39:49
take the emotion out of it and help you come
39:51
up with a logical, rational solution and not
39:54
have to feel like you don't have to feel ashamed
39:55
or bad about yourself. This is something that
39:57
happens to all of us and it's not. specific to
39:59
you. Certainly building your support network,
40:02
you know, is another thing that we tell women
40:05
to do. And then last we say, make sure you have
40:08
alternatives. I say always try to rectify like
40:12
whatever the situation is in your own workplace,
40:15
you know, but if you keep running into barriers,
40:17
you keep running into, you know, like if it's
40:19
toxic for sure. Think about what your alternatives
40:22
are. Can you get any other job in the same organization,
40:25
at a different organization? Can you go work
40:26
for yourself? Can you go back to school? Just
40:29
have alternatives on the table that you've fought
40:33
through so that you don't have to feel stuck
40:35
in one situation. Don't let that one job or that
40:38
one boss impact your sanity or your career. Absolutely.
40:44
That's such great advice because when you listen
40:46
to those... gender biases and we like I'm sure
40:49
anybody listen to this like yep sounds heard
40:51
heard that happen to be in my situation Whatever
40:54
it is. It can be really overwhelming But I mean
40:56
if you if you boil it down for whether it's leadership
40:59
or for a woman like it's awareness, just being
41:02
aware, having the conversations, talking about
41:04
it. And then being intentional to your point
41:07
of whether you're in leadership, like, okay,
41:08
what can we do? What can we change? I love the
41:10
flipping it. Like, would you say it's about a
41:12
man? And the same thing for women. So I love
41:14
that, that it can feel so overwhelming, like,
41:17
oh my God, we're never going to fix this. It's
41:19
never going to get better, but it steps and it's
41:21
just making progress is all we can do. We can't,
41:25
again, I joked about the magic wand. Unfortunately,
41:27
I don't think that's happening anytime soon.
41:30
So let's be aware. Let's be intentional. Let's
41:32
have conversations and let's support each other
41:34
is what it comes down to. So when I think about
41:37
it that way, it makes me feel better versus me
41:39
wanting to go cry about the craziness of it.
41:44
So Amy, this was so awesome. If people want to
41:46
find your book or more information, how can they
41:48
connect with you? Yeah, so you can go to my website.
41:51
It's Amy -Deal, D -I -E -H -L dot com, Amy -Deal
41:57
dot com. So the ordering links for my book are
42:00
on my website. It has just come out and it has
42:04
been out in hardback. It's now out in paperback.
42:07
Audiobook is new too. And of course it's available
42:09
in eBook as well. Awesome. And all those order
42:11
links are available on my website. Perfect. And
42:13
we'll put that all in the show notes too. We'll
42:15
link to all that on the website. So Amy, thank
42:17
you so much for being here and thank you for
42:18
for doing this amazing research. And I can't
42:21
wait to see the impact that we'll have for our
42:24
world as we move forward. So thank you. Thank
42:27
you so much, Betsy. I could talk about this for
42:29
hours because every single one of these glass
42:32
walls, I've lived it. I've watched it happen.
42:34
And I know so many of you listening have too.
42:36
Here's what I hope you take away. If you've been
42:38
running into invisible barriers at work, you're
42:40
not imagining it and you're not alone. Naming
42:43
it matters because the second you can say, I
42:46
know what this is. You stop making it a character
42:48
flaw. And I love that Amy doesn't put it all
42:51
on women to fix ourselves. Yes, we can build
42:54
support, stay aware, and keep options on the
42:57
table. But leaders have to own culture, systems,
43:00
pay, equity, and opportunity. And allies, please
43:04
hear this. Your voice really matters. If this
43:07
episode hit, please share it with a friend, someone
43:09
navigating these same dynamics. This is how we
43:12
change the conversation. Until next time, stay
43:15
loud and stay lifted.