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Navigating Your Path - S1E8: A Conversation with John Osiecki · Navigating Your Path

• 0:05
  Hi.
• 0:06
  Welcome to Navigating Your Path.
• 0:08
  I'm your host, Duane Newton.
• 0:11
  In this episode, I interviewed a longtime friend of mine, actually one of the longest friends I've had in my professional career, Dr.
• 0:19
  John Osiecki.
• 0:20
  John is the Vice President of Medical Affairs with BioMerieux.
• 0:25
  This episode really reinforced to me why I enjoy doing this podcast so much.
• 0:31
  I've known him for over 20 years, and I still learned new things about him.
• 0:37
  What wasn't new is that I continued to learn new things from him.
• 0:42
  He's just that kind of person.
• 0:44
  John shared stories of the people, experiences, and books that he's read that have shaped the approach that he takes to learning, to leadership, and to life.
• 0:55
  John is one of the most thoughtful, well-read, and inspiring people I know, and I'm certain that he will open your eyes to many things that will help you on your own journey.
• 1:08
  Please enjoy my conversation with Dr.
• 1:10
  John Osiecki
• 1:12
  Duane Newton: What's the latest?
• 1:13
  Duane Newton: What's new?
• 1:14
  Duane Newton: What's happening?
• 1:16
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:17
  John Osiecki: Uh, always exciting stuff going, you know?
• 1:20
  John Osiecki: Middle of the year, there's outbreaks of gastrointestinal disease all over the s- country and you know.
• 1:28
  John Osiecki: I'm seeing- Breaking about, uh-
• 1:29
  Duane Newton: Cyclos- um, Cyclospora- Yeah in Michigan.
• 1:34
  John Osiecki: Yep, and then influenza in boot camp and military facilities, you know?
• 1:40
  John Osiecki: It's just, uh, yeah, par for the course, I guess, in infectious disease.
• 1:44
  John Osiecki: Always lots of interesting things going on.
• 1:46
  John Osiecki: I guess that's the fascinating part of, uh, infectious disease, right?
• 1:50
  Duane Newton: I saw, um, there's some marketing emails that were talking about, um, that came from BioMerieux on water testing, and it kind of made it sound like there was something going on in association with the World Cup as far as disease surveillance.
• 2:08
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 2:08
  John Osiecki: Yeah, that's right.
• 2:09
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 2:09
  John Osiecki: There's a couple sites in the US that are doing that.
• 2:10
  John Osiecki: They're looking basically at changes in, you know, organisms and signatures that are being detected in the presence and absence of World Cup activity attendance.
• 2:22
  Duane Newton: I see.
• 2:23
  John Osiecki: It's interesting.
• 2:23
  Duane Newton: So monitoring when, you know, over time when games are there and not there and, you know...
• 2:29
  Duane Newton: Okay.
• 2:29
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 2:30
  Duane Newton: Interesting.
• 2:31
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Duane Newton: That's pretty-
• 2:32
  John Osiecki: That'll be a fascinating, uh, publication, I'm sure.
• 2:36
  Duane Newton: Um, can you remind me the years that you were a fellow?
• 2:44
  John Osiecki: Yeah, so I, uh, finished my PhD program back in 2003 and then attended the fellowship program at the University of Rochester from 2003 to 2005.
• 2:57
  John Osiecki: So I wrapped up in 2005.
• 3:00
  Duane Newton: So yeah, we were only a year off.
• 3:04
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 3:04
  Duane Newton: Okay.
• 3:05
  Duane Newton: So, um- So you, did you interview with Wendy and Hossein?
• 3:13
  John Osiecki: I did.
• 3:14
  John Osiecki: Yep.
• 3:15
  John Osiecki: I met with both of them, and Wendy and I actually worked on a project together that we presented a poster.
• 3:21
  John Osiecki: Uh, I think it was at the Clearwater Symposium my first year in my fellowship.
• 3:26
  Duane Newton: Really?
• 3:26
  Duane Newton: So she was still there at that time?
• 3:29
  John Osiecki: No, she had moved on, but I inherited the project and-
• 3:31
  Duane Newton: Oh, I see.
• 3:32
  Duane Newton: Okay put the
• 3:32
  John Osiecki: poster together and presented it.
• 3:33
  John Osiecki: Yep.
• 3:35
  Duane Newton: Okay.
• 3:35
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 3:35
  Duane Newton: Um, so, um, you know, you're in the top three or four people of people that I've known the longest in our profession, so that's pretty cool.
• 3:49
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 3:50
  Duane Newton: I always got a kick out of the fact that, um, it's kind of like what happens in families when, you know, there's so many kids and the mom and dad can't call your, you know, call you by your right name, that you and Mindy kept getting called Duane and Wendy.
• 4:08
  Duane Newton: Yeah, that's right.
• 4:10
  John Osiecki: Yep, we had a lot of that,
• 4:13
  Duane Newton: which is kind of fun.
• 4:13
  Duane Newton: Well, I appreciate Yeah, it is, uh, it is, it's funny.
• 4:17
  Duane Newton: Um, but I appreciate your willingness to, to come on and, and- Sure talk and share some of the perspect- perspectives that you have.
• 4:26
  Duane Newton: I think, you know, where I, I like to start is kind of going back to, um, you know, maybe origin story times and your family and where you grew up and- Sure uh, I think there's always some interesting little tidbits about family life and, and where people grew up and what they experience have kind of carried through with them.
• 4:50
  Duane Newton: So remind me of where, where you're from- Yes and what your p- family did.
• 4:57
  John Osiecki: Yeah, actually, I grew up in the Midwest, so in the St.
• 5:00
  John Osiecki: Louis area, but outside of St.
• 5:02
  John Osiecki: Louis, so in a really rural community.
• 5:04
  John Osiecki: Uh, my parents were not a fan of living in suburban neighborhoods, you know, so early on in life, I think I was in fifth grade or so, we moved out to the country.
• 5:14
  John Osiecki: They had 10 acres way out in the woods, and everything was far away.
• 5:18
  John Osiecki: So I think by the time I got to be 18 and the idea of college, like going to a place where you could order a pizza, was just really exciting to me.
• 5:28
  John Osiecki: That it could be delivered to my door, you know?
• 5:30
  John Osiecki: Simple
• 5:30
  Duane Newton: pleasures.
• 5:31
  John Osiecki: Those, yeah, things that everybody else takes for granted for generations, uh, was not accessible to us, so.
• 5:38
  John Osiecki: And I think that's interesting, as I've studied, like, leadership and you study people, like people who yearn for those things tend to be curious.
• 5:47
  John Osiecki: They tend to wanna learn more, you know, and engage in some of those things, so maybe that's where it sort of came from.
• 5:52
  John Osiecki: But, um- Is
• 5:53
  Duane Newton: there a theme of kind of that early isolationism or iso- Yeah isolated experience that, you know, kind of, that you see pop up a little bit?
• 6:04
  John Osiecki: For sure.
• 6:05
  John Osiecki: Yeah, no, I think, I was thinking about this today, too, like, you know, just I was kind of a nerdy kid that liked to go to the library, which is weird now that I think about it.
• 6:13
  John Osiecki: My kids kind of make fun of me.
• 6:15
  John Osiecki: You know, so, like,"You're always reading books." And I think it's this idea of being curious and wanting to learn, and just even going back to...
• 6:21
  John Osiecki: I mean, things are different now.
• 6:23
  John Osiecki: Everything's digital, and you have tons of information at your fingertips.
• 6:26
  John Osiecki: But that was always something that I really enjoyed, was learning, you know, independently of s- what's being taught in school and that sort of thing.
• 6:33
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 6:33
  John Osiecki: So I think that's helped me a lot in my career and helped me to connect with people.
• 6:37
  Duane Newton: How many siblings did you have?
• 6:40
  John Osiecki: I had two sisters growing up
• 6:42
  Duane Newton: Older, younger?
• 6:43
  John Osiecki: They're both older, yeah.
• 6:45
  John Osiecki: So they're, uh, still in the St.
• 6:47
  John Osiecki: Louis area, but, uh, yeah, they're a couple years older.
• 6:50
  John Osiecki: So we were pretty close in age.
• 6:52
  John Osiecki: And, uh, you know, I went off to college to, uh, Northeast Missouri State, so Truman State is what it is now, and, uh, spent a few years up there, and got my undergraduate degree in biology and chemistry.
• 7:05
  John Osiecki: And then, uh, s- I started attending a program at, uh, St.
• 7:09
  John Osiecki: Louis University in, uh, St.
• 7:11
  John Osiecki: Louis, so that's a private sort of Jesuit institution there in St.
• 7:15
  John Osiecki: Louis.
• 7:16
  John Osiecki: Got to work a lot with folks at WashU.
• 7:18
  John Osiecki: I met, uh, some great, uh, graduate students while I was there that were working on PhD programs and master's programs, and learned a lot.
• 7:27
  John Osiecki: And then-
• 7:27
  Duane Newton: So what was that, what, what was the program at, at St.
• 7:29
  Duane Newton: Louis that you-
• 7:31
  John Osiecki: They actually had a, a, a master's program in pathology.
• 7:35
  John Osiecki: So it was just about understanding disease processes and- Mm-hmm I was kinda interested in microscopy and learning more about using tools, you know, to visualize disease processes.
• 7:44
  John Osiecki: Uh, had some great, um, instructors in my undergrad that kinda inspired me in that way.
• 7:50
  John Osiecki: Uh, I took a pathogenic microbiology course that I thought was really fascinating- Mm-hmm so was wanting to learn more about that.
• 7:51
  John Osiecki: So when I got to my master's program, the PhD program that I entered into, the professor that I was working with there, he, uh, was interested in, you know, disease progression from enteric pathogens.
• 7:51
  John Osiecki: It's interesting we're talking about enteric pathogens again.
• 7:51
  John Osiecki: Like, they don't go away, right?
• 7:52
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 8:13
  John Osiecki: We haven't solved that problem yet.
• 8:16
  John Osiecki: Uh, but molecular mechanisms of pathogenesis, which really fascinated me.
• 8:20
  John Osiecki: So that's what I spent my time on, uh, in my PhD.
• 8:23
  John Osiecki: He actually transferred to the University of Kansas while I was studying with him, so I, I went with him.
• 8:29
  John Osiecki: Uh, and that's where I ultimately got my PhD, at the University of Kansas.
• 8:34
  Duane Newton: Where, where did the, um- the interest in biology come from?
• 8:39
  Duane Newton: Was there something in high school that started or, you know, did you get exposed to it through your family?
• 8:44
  Duane Newton: Or where- Yeah what was the-
• 8:46
  John Osiecki: It's interesting, you know, you talk about your what inspires you in life, and I talk to my kids all the time.
• 8:52
  John Osiecki: Like,"How do you, what do you think of Spanish?" They're like,"Oh, my ter- my teacher's terrible.
• 8:56
  John Osiecki: I hate Spanish." And it's like, well, is it Spanish that you hate, or is it your teacher that you hate?
• 9:02
  John Osiecki: And I would say when I went to high school, I actually took a biology class like we all do, and the, the teacher for the course was, he was the head basketball coach for the high school.
• 9:12
  John Osiecki: Okay?
• 9:13
  John Osiecki: So every summer, he would plan a trip to the mountains out in Colorado, and, uh, he would invite anyone to come, and you could pay your, it was$400 for a week, you know?
• 9:26
  John Osiecki: We got on a school bus, and we drove out to Wyoming and Colorado, and we actually took all of our gear and our food, and we unloaded the bus, and he had a ranger drive the bus away because the place we were going to get on the bus again was 41 miles through the mountains.
• 9:47
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 9:47
  John Osiecki: So we had to hike, and we had to camp, and we had to catch our food.
• 9:51
  John Osiecki: We did a lot of fishing and caught trout in the streams and cooked our food and hiked through the mountains, and it was an amazing experience.
• 9:59
  John Osiecki: And he was just a really great leader, and he was someone that, he taught integrity, you know, he taught a lot of these core principles that make a team great.
• 10:08
  John Osiecki: And I'll never forget that trip,'cause there were so many problems and issues.
• 10:12
  John Osiecki: It's a good illustration, I think, of life.
• 10:14
  John Osiecki: When we went on this trip, one of the, uh, kids that participated was from Texas.
• 10:20
  John Osiecki: He was really fair-skinned, had red hair, bigger kid on the football team.
• 10:25
  John Osiecki: And, uh, we got up one morning,'cause there was snow on the ground, and, uh, w- Coach told us, he's like,"Hey, we're gonna have to get up super early, like 4:00 in the morning.
• 10:35
  John Osiecki: We're gonna break camp, we're gonna load up our gear,'cause we have to hike on top of the snow." This is in June, right?
• 10:41
  John Osiecki: We have to hike on top of the snow because as it warms up, your legs will, you know, crack through the top of the ice, and then we're gonna s- scratch our legs up, and people are gonna get, get infections.
• 10:50
  John Osiecki: It's gonna be bad.
• 10:51
  John Osiecki: So we had two chaperones that were, like, 22 years old.
• 10:54
  John Osiecki: These were new, you know, teachers at the school, were supposed to go on the trip with us to chaperone.
• 11:00
  John Osiecki: Well, they decided they weren't getting up at 4:00 in the morning, and they would just meet us at the next camping spot, that they would find us there.
• 11:08
  John Osiecki: But they'd never been, and we are out back in the mountains, right, in Wyoming.
• 11:13
  John Osiecki: So we got up, we did our hiking, we got to this place for midday.
• 11:16
  John Osiecki: We waited and waited and waited.
• 11:19
  John Osiecki: They never came, the other two chaperones.
• 11:22
  John Osiecki: So he told us, he's like,"Hey, I'm gonna go find them.
• 11:25
  John Osiecki: They're lost.
• 11:26
  John Osiecki: I know they took a wrong turn, and I know exactly where they are.
• 11:29
  John Osiecki: If I'm not back by tonight, I'll be back tomorrow.
• 11:33
  John Osiecki: You guys just stay here, you know, you're gonna be fine." So our chaperones led away the leader of our group, and we were told just to stay where we were in the middle of the mountains, right?
• 11:46
  John Osiecki: There's, you know, moose and bear and all kinds of wild animals.
• 11:50
  John Osiecki: We have no idea where we are.
• 11:52
  John Osiecki: None of us had been there before.
• 11:54
  John Osiecki: And so it reminds me of The Lord of the Flies.
• 11:56
  John Osiecki: What happens when you take a supervisor away, and you just have a bunch of teenage boys left to their wiles, you know, in the wilderness.
• 12:06
  John Osiecki: So I would say within 30 minutes of him leaving, uh, a bunch of people thought it would be a great idea to get their ponchos out and sled down the mountain slopes with their ponchos in the snow.
• 12:18
  John Osiecki: Now, thinking back on that, what if someone hit their head or had a concussion or there was an emergency?
• 12:22
  John Osiecki: Like, we were done.
• 12:24
  John Osiecki: But anyway, this, this, uh, uh, young man that went with us that was from Texas, that had really fair skin, he decided just to climb up on a rock and take a nap.
• 12:33
  John Osiecki: So he took off his shoes, and he was there in his shorts.
• 12:36
  John Osiecki: You know, he just laid back on a rock and fell asleep in the sun.
• 12:39
  John Osiecki: What he didn't realize two hours later, that he had been baked by the sun, and he had the worst sunburn I've ever seen, and he had to put his boots on and walk.
• 12:50
  John Osiecki: He had blisters on his feet, just covering his feet from the sunburn.
• 12:54
  John Osiecki: And so, um, you know, the coach that was heading up the group, he went back, and sure enough, he was right.
• 12:59
  John Osiecki: The chaperones went the wrong direction, exactly where he thought.
• 13:02
  John Osiecki: He had to chase them down and then hike back.
• 13:04
  John Osiecki: They made it back by nightfall, so we weren't alone through the night, but we were alone all day, for the most part, uh, in the woods.
• 13:11
  John Osiecki: And it just reminds me, you know, I think some important lessons there, even at 16, like you're gonna make it, you know?
• 13:18
  John Osiecki: It's not gonna be what you expected, and you just have to make the best of the situation, right?
• 13:23
  John Osiecki: And turn tragic into magic, you know?
• 13:26
  John Osiecki: Like, just make it a great thing, even though- You know, it feels like things are- Yeah stacked against
• 13:32
  Duane Newton: you Yeah,
• 13:33
  John Osiecki: in the
• 13:33
  Duane Newton: moment of it, yeah, in the moment you're They have no clue, and it's really funny-
• 13:39
  John Osiecki: Yeah
• 13:39
  Duane Newton: ha- to listen to you telling that story and in the 20- five years or 20-something years that we've known each other, there are little sayings that you used that I've heard before.
• 13:56
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 13:56
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, about leadership, about perseverance, um, you know, ability to overcome and see positive in a negative situation.
• 14:11
  Duane Newton: And, and- Sure and so it's, I'm really glad we went, went there because, um, as soon as you started talking about that coach and teacher, I could see how much of an impact he's had on you, because I'm hearing that.
• 14:29
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Duane Newton: You know, I've heard that over the course of our relationship over the last couple of decades.
• 14:34
  Duane Newton: That it's- Yeah uh, that's where it came from.
• 14:38
  John Osiecki: Had he been a Spanish teacher, we could be having this conversation- in Spanish, you know?
• 14:42
  John Osiecki: Like, I don't know.
• 14:43
  John Osiecki: It's hard to say, but And I think about that oftentimes, the people in your life that influence you, right, they have a, a deeper influence, I think, and that's He did that for, not just for me, but generations of young men, right, that went on these trips and-
• 14:56
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 14:56
  John Osiecki: really for the first time were away from their parents.
• 14:59
  John Osiecki: They realized they could catch their own food and cook their own meals and, you know, hike through the wilderness, and be alone if that was what was necessary- Yeah and survive, right?
• 15:09
  John Osiecki: And it just provides you with confidence.
• 15:10
  John Osiecki: So that's something I've always tried to do and share with people, you know, is like- Yeah"Hey, have confidence.
• 15:14
  John Osiecki: Like, you're doing great stuff, you know.
• 15:16
  John Osiecki: Like, this is hard, but you have an opportunity to make it amazing."
• 15:21
  Duane Newton: As a, as a parent, how, how do you feel like your, that experience and your experience as a kid has shaped your parenting style in the, in the context of the world that we live in now?
• 15:37
  Duane Newton: Because, you know- Yeah there's I don't, I can't imagine anyone letting their kids go do something like that or, you know, hearing the aftermath of,"Yeah, we were alone the whole day because he took off," you know.
• 15:52
  Duane Newton: He would not survive in a school system- with, you know, doing- No that kind of thing.
• 15:57
  Duane Newton: You know, so- Yeah it's, I, I feel like, you know, there are elements of that kind of style, leadership and parenting, that maybe might have incorporated itself into how you approach things with your kids.
• 16:12
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 16:14
  John Osiecki: I, I'm, uh, a big fan of, like, family history, and I've looked back over the years into family history and I notice on my grandfather's side we're related to Native Americans, so I've always been fascinated with kind of Native American history and, like, I've read quite a few books and, um, kind- Heard some really interesting stories, and certain tribes, you know, what they would do is they, they would actually take their young people, their young men, and they would expel them from the tribe for a period of time, right?
• 16:40
  John Osiecki: And I think that's been captured in a couple different books, where they, you know, it's basically a coming of age.
• 16:45
  John Osiecki: You will go out, and you will either gain the confidence to survive in the wild, or you won't.
• 16:52
  John Osiecki: But now's the time, right?
• 16:53
  John Osiecki: And so think about how difficult as a parent that must be for the mother and the father of that child.
• 16:59
  John Osiecki: You want them to be successful.
• 17:00
  John Osiecki: And I feel like the pendulum for us has swung the other direction.
• 17:04
  John Osiecki: I, uh, I have so many of our kids' friends that don't drive, you know?
• 17:08
  John Osiecki: They don't have confidence to do a lot of things, and I think it's because we've protected them too much, you know, from, um, potential pitfalls or challenges.
• 17:19
  John Osiecki: And the reality is that's the...
• 17:21
  John Osiecki: I, I feel like that's why we're here.
• 17:22
  John Osiecki: We're here to learn and grow, and this existence is about learning from our failures and overcoming them.
• 17:28
  John Osiecki: It's not about being perfect.
• 17:29
  John Osiecki: None of us are perfect.
• 17:30
  John Osiecki: We're never gonna be perfect, as much as we try, so let's not fear failure.
• 17:34
  John Osiecki: Let's learn from it.
• 17:36
  John Osiecki: Let's embrace it.
• 17:36
  John Osiecki: Let's grow, you know, as we go through that experience.
• 17:39
  John Osiecki: So that's what I've tried to impose on my, my kids, you know, as they grow up, is This is an opportunity for us, you know, to make the most of every day, and to fail and do that quickly and learn from it so that we can enjoy a measure of success.
• 17:57
  John Osiecki: And, uh, just to keep at it, because, you know, at the end of the day, I think a, a lot of times, too, going back to that coach that kind of inspired me, he was really a lot about teamwork.
• 18:07
  John Osiecki: He was really focused on improvement, you know, making things better.
• 18:11
  John Osiecki: But at the end of the day, it was really about integrity, you know?
• 18:13
  John Osiecki: So who are you?
• 18:14
  John Osiecki: What's in you?
• 18:16
  John Osiecki: What's most important to you?
• 18:17
  John Osiecki: Is it money?
• 18:18
  John Osiecki: Is that really what's most important?
• 18:20
  John Osiecki: Or is it the relationships you have with people and how they feel when they're around you?
• 18:25
  John Osiecki: You know, there's lots of people, and maybe sometimes culture creates an environment where we think it's all about money.
• 18:31
  John Osiecki: Uh, but at the end of the day, at the end of your career, right, you're gonna sit down and reflect on the successes you've had.
• 18:40
  John Osiecki: W- when was that golden time, you know-
• 18:43
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 18:43
  John Osiecki: when, uh, you felt most productive or felt like you made the biggest impact?
• 18:48
  John Osiecki: And to me, it's not about money.
• 18:50
  John Osiecki: It's not about material things.
• 18:52
  John Osiecki: It's really about, you know, the relationships that you've built, the support and confidence you've given to other people, how you felt when people supported you, and then when you were able to do that for other people, right?
• 19:08
  Duane Newton: I Those are all That all resonates, and I think that that, um, for me, is how I've tried to live my life, is by making, you know, having those kinds of connections.
• 19:22
  Duane Newton: And I've gotten the most out of experiences and my time and whatever because of the quality of that.
• 19:31
  Duane Newton: But on the flip side, the You Having that comfort level to- Um, try and fail and be imperfect and, um, learn from it requires an environment I f- I feel like, uh, uh, culturally and, and relation- relationally that's supportive and kind of has a safety net mentality to it.
• 20:04
  Duane Newton: Um, and that wasn't something...
• 20:09
  Duane Newton: It's taken a long time to get, for me to get to that point where I've, I've felt more comfortable doing that.
• 20:15
  Duane Newton: Sure.
• 20:15
  Duane Newton: And so it's, I feel like it's, I'm, uh, I don't know how, if it's unique or not.
• 20:22
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 20:22
  Duane Newton: But I'm always, I always recognize that when people have it.
• 20:26
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 20:27
  Duane Newton: And so it seems like you kind of came up in a lot of different environments where you had that, you had that safety net around you, or you had, you were encouraged to try and supported in, in the, you know, quote, unquote,"failures" or, you know, the learning opportunities.
• 20:47
  Duane Newton: And, uh, can you talk about people- Yeah you know, in graduate school and, and beyond that, um, you know, or undergrad, graduate school and beyond, that created that kind of environment or supported you in, in that way?
• 21:03
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 21:04
  John Osiecki: I'm gonna, I'm gonna share y- with you a story that I've shared with several of my teams over the years that I thought was, kind of illustrates this point.
• 21:11
  John Osiecki: It's about a musician, his name's Keith Jarrett.
• 21:13
  John Osiecki: Have you heard of him before?
• 21:14
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 21:14
  John Osiecki: He's a jazz pianist.
• 21:16
  John Osiecki: Uh, he was super popular, like, in the late'70s and the early'80s.
• 21:21
  John Osiecki: I can't remember how I stumbled upon this story, but he, he was a very eccentric individual.
• 21:27
  John Osiecki: He was not social at all.
• 21:28
  John Osiecki: He was very, um, introverted, but an amazing, uh, pianist that was capable of improvisation like no one else, right?
• 21:39
  John Osiecki: And so he was a really gifted musician, and he planned a trip in Europe, and he was going to different cities in Europe to play.
• 21:46
  John Osiecki: And this is at sort of the height of some popularity of jazz music and improvisation.
• 21:51
  John Osiecki: And so he had a, um, a, a manager that would go ahead of him and organize different events.
• 21:57
  John Osiecki: Well, he was performing at a university setting in Köln, K-O-L-N, in Germany, and the person who was helping to coordinate the event was a graduate student, okay?
• 22:07
  John Osiecki: And so when they coordinated the event, the location that he was gonna play in was this hall and, you know, he played on a, played the piano, so he preferred to have a nicer piano available.
• 22:19
  John Osiecki: They had a Steinway, apparently, uh, in this hall, and this student was responsible for coordinating the event.
• 22:25
  John Osiecki: They had sold thousands of tickets, and all these people were coming.
• 22:28
  John Osiecki: So the manager shows up, and they, uh, to inspect the facility and to check out the piano, and it turns out the piano that was available was broken.
• 22:38
  John Osiecki: It was an old Steinway piano that was, had issues with the keys and the pedals, and there were just all kinds of challenges with this piano.
• 22:46
  John Osiecki: And so, uh, he goes to this...
• 22:49
  John Osiecki: He said,"Who's respon- who's in charge?
• 22:51
  John Osiecki: Like, this, we can't do this, right?
• 22:53
  John Osiecki: This is not great.
• 22:54
  John Osiecki: Uh, this is a less than ideal situation.
• 22:56
  John Osiecki: You know, you have a virtuoso here that's going to perform, and you give them a broken piano.
• 23:01
  John Osiecki: Like, we can't do this, you know?" And so this graduate, she doesn't know, right?
• 23:06
  John Osiecki: She's like,"I apologize.
• 23:08
  John Osiecki: Like, what can we do?" And he said,"Tell you what.
• 23:10
  John Osiecki: Here's what we're gonna do.
• 23:11
  John Osiecki: We're gonna record this live performance.
• 23:14
  John Osiecki: We're gonna record it, and then this is gonna be the example that I provide to everyone in the future of why.
• 23:20
  John Osiecki: And in the future, we would cancel, right?
• 23:23
  John Osiecki: We would just cancel the program and not play, because you didn't provide the appropriate equipment, right?" So Keith Jarrett comes out on stage knowing that this piano is not optimal, and he gives a live concert that is recorded, and the recording of that album was the highest selling jazz piano recital live recording of all time.
• 23:50
  John Osiecki: Because what you can hear, and I encourage people, and I share this with my team, I actually gave them the details.
• 23:55
  John Osiecki: Listen to it.
• 23:56
  John Osiecki: You can hear him improvising around the broken keys.
• 24:01
  John Osiecki: You can hear him grunting, you know, as he tries to work the pedals, and he creates a masterpiece with this broken piano.
• 24:09
  John Osiecki: So they actually illustrated the opposite, right?
• 24:12
  John Osiecki: He said even though he had this terrible piano, the idea that people could watch someone that's a master at their craft master a broken piano was just a whole nother level, right-
• 24:26
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 24:26
  John Osiecki: of amazing.
• 24:29
  John Osiecki: And so it kind of illustrates this point to me that, uh, that's life, right?
• 24:33
  John Osiecki: Life is about making the best music with a broken piano.
• 24:39
  John Osiecki: And, um, and the other thing I think that it illustrates that I, we all struggle with is you have to be true to yourself.
• 24:46
  John Osiecki: You know?
• 24:46
  John Osiecki: Like, you have talents and abilities.
• 24:48
  John Osiecki: You communicate and connect with people.
• 24:50
  John Osiecki: Don't, uh, don't run away from that.
• 24:53
  John Osiecki: You know?
• 24:54
  John Osiecki: Be yourself.
• 24:54
  John Osiecki: Be natural.
• 24:55
  John Osiecki: Don't be Bob McGonigal or, you know what I mean?
• 24:59
  John Osiecki: Other people that you see stand up and run- Mm-hmm panel discussions or whatever.
• 25:03
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 25:03
  John Osiecki: You know, be yourself and stay true to who you are and, uh, you know, do amazing work.
• 25:11
  John Osiecki: And so that, that was a great, uh, that was a great story.
• 25:13
  Duane Newton: I, I love that.
• 25:15
  Duane Newton: I, and I think the, um, there's so many- I don't know cliches or metaphors, you know, silver lining, lemons, lemonade out of lemons, that whole...
• 25:31
  Duane Newton: But I, I like, you know, making music out of the broken piano better Mm-hmm.
• 25:38
  Duane Newton: Because, you know, that, that...
• 25:41
  Duane Newton: 'Cause music is something, it, it resonates literally with, with me, and it's always been an, an important part of my life too.
• 25:50
  Duane Newton: And the, um...
• 25:54
  Duane Newton: I feel like My brain wants to go in so many different directions right now.
• 26:05
  Duane Newton: Um We need to take a, take a second On a personal level, I feel Look, I just wanna acknowledge that that's a huge challenge for me That, um, to live with, uh, with that imperfection
• 26:45
  John Osiecki: Yeah
• 26:46
  Duane Newton: And, you know, it's come up In specific ways o- s- several times over the last month or so.
• 26:57
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, I think we've talked about it I, I had the opportunity to talk about it with other people in, in the podcast and, and in different, um, presentation settings about, you know, this battle with perfectionism, um, the battle against making mistakes, the battle against, you know, not looking like you know what you're talking about.
• 27:28
  Duane Newton: And I think not that it's not present in, in every industry, but I feel especially in healthcare and in science, you know, there's a bar that, uh, real or perceived that's set that we're trying in- to jump over, and not being able to, um Well, in patient care, making a mistake can have big impact.
• 28:01
  John Osiecki: Sure.
• 28:02
  Duane Newton: And so I'm just like this I just want to acknowledge that that struggle is there and that, that, you know, it's a, it's a hard thing to find the space for yourself to, um, to fully, fully live that and comfortably live that way.
• 28:25
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Duane Newton: Uh, and I just, I, I think that was the main, the main thing that was coming up in that it, it was kind of, yes, I believe you, and I it's inspiring, and at the same time, this, the other side of this is that it's, it's, um, it is sometimes aspirational.
• 28:44
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 28:45
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 28:45
  John Osiecki: I, I heard a great analogy for this, kind of a sports analogy.
• 28:49
  John Osiecki: We're encouraged, as I interact with global colleagues and folks outside the US, they don't like our sports analogies'cause we live and die by them in the US.
• 28:57
  John Osiecki: But, uh, I thought this was a great analogy.
• 28:59
  John Osiecki: Uh, I'm a fan of American football.
• 29:02
  John Osiecki: It's a complicated sport.
• 29:03
  John Osiecki: It moves very quickly.
• 29:06
  John Osiecki: How many officials do you allow on the field when you think about your life, your professional career, your personal life, the things that you do?
• 29:16
  John Osiecki: If there were 1,000 f- officials on the field during a football game, the game would never finish.
• 29:23
  John Osiecki: There would be a flag on every play, and there would be penalties constantly.
• 29:27
  John Osiecki: Not only do you need to play the game, but you need to win the game.
• 29:31
  John Osiecki: And so h- in your mind, how many officials are you gonna allow on the field?
• 29:36
  John Osiecki: Is it 1,000?
• 29:37
  John Osiecki: Is it two?
• 29:38
  John Osiecki: You have to be comfortable, right, with some imperfection because perfection is not possible.
• 29:45
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 29:45
  John Osiecki: And we know that there's risk and there are consequences, and I feel- Bad for our clinical colleagues that have to deal with these failures.
• 29:53
  John Osiecki: I mean, we know this is an issue, but we know that tools and resources are becoming available that can improve every day, you know, and reduce the impact that, um, some of these decisions may have.
• 30:06
  John Osiecki: But, um, we have to make sure that we're creating enough space that we can deal with the imperfection, right?
• 30:15
  John Osiecki: And not overanalyze it, but go forward doing the best we can with the time we have, you know, to drive success.
• 30:21
  Duane Newton: But Uh, tr- a, um, impactful and maybe transformative, uh, book for me was a Brené Brown book called The Gifts of Imperfection.
• 30:32
  Duane Newton: And I c- I can remember reading it and, you know, where I was in my life, um- Newly single, trying to figure out my way.
• 30:47
  Duane Newton: You know, I, I think I was-- I had already kind of started thinking about my transition out of, in a clinical lab, or at least out of, in University of Michigan where I was, and a lot of, lot of uncertainty.
• 31:05
  Duane Newton: And I think that book helped Settle me into- Mm-hmm you know, into more of that space that you're talking about, that, yeah, you know, this, these things, giving yourself space and grace is really important.
• 31:23
  Duane Newton: And the things that you see as imperfections with who, who you are or how you approach things are what makes you unique and what makes you special to the, those around you.
• 31:34
  Duane Newton: They see that in you as a, as, uh, an attribute, not a deficiency.
• 31:39
  Duane Newton: And so I, I think that that helped start me on that journey of, um- Mm-hmm n- not being so self-judgy.
• 31:49
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 31:50
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 31:51
  John Osiecki: Yeah, and you hear about there's a lot of these coaches, you know, that are trying to direct elite athletes, and it's the pursuit of excellence, right, towards perfection, knowing that you'll never actually achieve perfection.
• 32:04
  John Osiecki: It's really investing in the pursuit of excellence, which I think is That's the key.
• 32:09
  John Osiecki: It's the curiosity.
• 32:11
  John Osiecki: It's the engagement.
• 32:12
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 32:12
  John Osiecki: It's the pursuit of excellence.
• 32:15
  John Osiecki: It's being engaged in the a- activity that I think is the important part.
• 32:19
  Duane Newton: So I, I wanna take that thread and kind of run with it because, um, I'm su- I'm sure it's woven through the- In the path that, that you've taken in post-fellowship, so that relatively unique, um, in that, you know, going directly into industry out of fellowship program and, and staying there and, and kind of growing and moving along there.
• 32:55
  Duane Newton: Can you talk a little bit about that journey and what, what drew you Aside, you know, from the obvious of, you know, a- an attractive job coming out of fellowship, but then, you know, to the decision to kind of stay down that, stay on that path and what that experience has been like and, and, you know, what has drawn you, what was the draw for you emotionally?
• 33:22
  John Osiecki: Yeah, I think initially the, the typical path, right?
• 33:25
  John Osiecki: The typical path when you become an undergrad is to get your bachelor's degree and find a job, and then you could go to a master's or a PhD program, and then the typical path for someone in a PhD program is to go into research, right?
• 33:39
  John Osiecki: That's what all of our profes- professors try to convince us to do.
• 33:42
  John Osiecki: Uh, I didn't choose that.
• 33:43
  John Osiecki: I went into clinical, right?
• 33:44
  John Osiecki: And the typical path for someone in a clinical fellowship program is to go into the clinical lab, which I chose not to do.
• 33:52
  John Osiecki: And it did surprise me a little bit.
• 33:53
  John Osiecki: I think what happened initially, uh, when I was finishing my fellowship, I had several offers at the time.
• 33:59
  John Osiecki: There were lots of opportunities, you know, uh, coming out of fellowship.
• 34:02
  John Osiecki: I know it's a little bit more challenging these days, uh, with some of the folks that are finishing up programs.
• 34:07
  John Osiecki: But had multiple opportunities in clinical settings, but, uh, had a couple of industry opportunities, and again, it kinda comes back to mentors.
• 34:16
  John Osiecki: You know, I talked to people in my network, other fellows I spoke with.
• 34:20
  John Osiecki: I talked to, uh, Marilyn Menegas, right, who was the, the, um, head of our, um, program there at the University of Rochester at the time.
• 34:28
  John Osiecki: She gave some great advice as well.
• 34:30
  John Osiecki: And, um, ultimately I think what it came down to was the experience I had interviewing.
• 34:35
  John Osiecki: Uh, you know, when I interviewed in the clinical settings, I was very familiar and comfortable with the environment'cause I'd just come from that for two years.
• 34:41
  John Osiecki: But when I went to industry, what was very apparent to me was that there was a lack of awareness, you know, of kind of the tangible day-to-day challenges that f- we face in the clinical laboratory.
• 34:55
  John Osiecki: And so the way I designed my...
• 34:57
  John Osiecki: You know, they would ask me to give a presentation, so I would give a presentation that said,"Hey, your stuff's broken, and here's why.
• 35:04
  John Osiecki: You need to fix it." Not really trying to get a job necessarily, but to share with them,"You're moving in the wrong direction here as a company." And so the feedback I got was great.
• 35:13
  John Osiecki: They're like,"This is what we need.
• 35:14
  John Osiecki: You know, our organizations are full of people that have never h- been accountable in a clinical lab setting." They just don't have the sense of urgency.
• 35:22
  John Osiecki: They don't understand the complexity.
• 35:24
  John Osiecki: They don't have the experience at all.
• 35:26
  John Osiecki: And so to me, that became an opportunity to make an impact beyond the borders of a typical clinical laboratory in New Jersey or in Texas or in Chicago, right, uh, where I could have a greater impact, not only in a region of the United States, but across the United States and, frankly, across the globe.
• 35:47
  John Osiecki: I've been able to work with the CDC in China.
• 35:50
  John Osiecki: I've run studies in Singapore and in Bangkok and in Australia and New Zealand and all over the world, not to mention lots of connections across the US and Canada and Mexico and South America.
• 36:01
  John Osiecki: And so it's, it's been a really great journey, and, uh, I feel like it was that initially that planting that seed of a broader impact beyond just, you know, the walls of a, a single institution was what drew me into it.
• 36:16
  Duane Newton: Did you have, um- Or, uh, who were the people that were influential, who've been influential for you in that process?
• 36:26
  Duane Newton: Because I think that, that, you know, people on the clinical side, they're...
• 36:31
  Duane Newton: people will drop names, uh, about, you know, their mentors- Yeah and they're, they're recognizable.
• 36:38
  Duane Newton: And these folks may not be recognizable, but, you know, who would, who would you shout out, um, along the way?
• 36:46
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 36:46
  John Osiecki: I would say, so again, I think Marilyn Menegas, uh, she was a huge influence for me.
• 36:51
  John Osiecki: Uh, she's no longer with us obviously, so couldn't help others in their journey.
• 36:56
  John Osiecki: But one thing that she really impressed upon me, I think, she would recite this poem that was her favorite.
• 37:01
  John Osiecki: I'm not sure if she shared it with you, but, uh, this is Princes and Kings.
• 37:06
  John Osiecki: "Isn't it strange how princes and kings and clowns that caper in sawdust rings, and common people like you and me, are builders for eternity?
• 37:15
  John Osiecki: Each is given a list of rules, a shapeless mass, a bag of tools.
• 37:20
  John Osiecki: And each must fashion ere life is flown a stumbling block or a stepping stone." And it was this idea, right?
• 37:29
  John Osiecki: Like, hey, you have an opportunity to help the community.
• 37:34
  John Osiecki: Are you gonna block people and take all the praise, or are you gonna build up other people and step aside, right?
• 37:41
  John Osiecki: And help them in their career.
• 37:44
  John Osiecki: And I, you know, the older I get, I just really see the wisdom in that, and it's something I've tried to do throughout my entire career, you know, is to, to really build people up and provide them with guidance and support so that they can do those things that are challenging and continue to progress and grow in their confidence and capabilities.
• 38:04
  John Osiecki: So I'd say Marilyn, uh, was a big, uh, was a big, um, influence for me.
• 38:09
  John Osiecki: And I'll tell you again, and we lean a lot on the Rochester family, you know, like all the fellows that went through.
• 38:14
  John Osiecki: And I'll, I'll give just another great example, Mike Loeffelholz, who's now at Cepheid.
• 38:18
  John Osiecki: Uh, Mike had an industry experience early on after his fellowship.
• 38:24
  John Osiecki: I just called him up and said,"Mike, I'd love to talk about this." And he's like,"Great, let's talk about it." So we jumped on the phone, and we talked through it, and he was really, uh, a great sounding board for me just to talk through, you know, him having been through it and what he learned from it and the opportunities that lie to, lie ahead.
• 38:40
  John Osiecki: And if you look back through his career, he's had an amazing career, you know, of, of different, uh, leadership roles and won numerous awards and have helped a lot of people.
• 38:49
  John Osiecki: And so I think he's another great example of, you know, sort of a pillar in the community that was, um, a great resource at, in the moment.
• 38:59
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 39:00
  John Osiecki: And that's something I think I would encourage other people to keep in mind, is that- You should make time for that, right?
• 39:07
  John Osiecki: When people reach out to you for advice or for perspectives, it's important, I think, to give back to those folks'cause, you know, someone did it for me clearly- Mm-hmm and that really helped me on my way.
• 39:18
  John Osiecki: So are we stumbling blocks or stepping stones, right?
• 39:21
  John Osiecki: I think there's...
• 39:22
  John Osiecki: And there is no reward.
• 39:23
  John Osiecki: I didn't pay Mike, you know, for his advice or didn't have, you know, any compensation or anything, you know, tangible other than goodwill, you know, and just support of the community so that I
• 39:35
  Duane Newton: could progress.
• 39:36
  Duane Newton: And it's, yeah, it's, it's like, you know, it's Marilyn's legacy and Mike's legacy and, you know, hopefully, you know, our legacy th- th- by taking that example and, and doing the same things.
• 39:51
  Duane Newton: I, um, I've referred to it over the last couple of years as the Marilyn Menegus effect or the Marilyn Me- effect in- Mm-hmm in, um...
• 40:03
  Duane Newton: That was a huge motivation, uh, for me in creating the space and, you know, doing the happy hours that I've been doing and f- for exactly the same reason.
• 40:18
  Duane Newton: And, uh, I was talking, um, to someone else in, in another podcast episode about a similar thing and how, like, how many thousands of people did that coach, did your coach- connect, you know, touch in, in some way, shape, or form over the course of his career.
• 40:41
  Duane Newton: And wouldn't it be amazing to see, you know, what that impact has been like?
• 40:48
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Duane Newton: And then, you know, not only in that first generation or first degree contact, but the second and third and fourth degree contacts-
• 40:59
  John Osiecki: For sure
• 40:59
  Duane Newton: for those people.
• 41:00
  Duane Newton: And, um, and I think the other thing that's part of it, it, it's not just making the effort, it's you have no idea when that- How that situation arises or when you're doing something that y- you may not have any idea of the kind of effect you're having on people by, by that.
• 41:25
  Duane Newton: I had a conversation with a former employee of mine who came up to me at a meeting and s- and said,"You know, I remember when you told me about X, Y, or Z, and that was really important, and I've always remembered that." And I was like,"You're welcome." Right.
• 41:47
  Duane Newton: Um, so I th- I think just kind of like having that be, having that kind of mindset of, uh, I guess it's, um, servant leadership- Yeah in, in a lot of ways.
• 42:04
  Duane Newton: You know, do you, do you feel like that, that term resonates with how you've tried to approach it?
• 42:10
  John Osiecki: Yeah, for sure.
• 42:11
  John Osiecki: I think that's a great, uh, way to characterize it.
• 42:14
  John Osiecki: It reminds me, one of the books I read that really left an impact on me was this book, um, it's called The Question Behind the Question.
• 42:23
  John Osiecki: Have you heard of this book before?
• 42:24
  Duane Newton: Mm-mm.
• 42:26
  John Osiecki: So this book is about accountability, right?
• 42:29
  John Osiecki: It's about being responsible.
• 42:32
  John Osiecki: And, um, the book was written by- Uh, it was written by John G.
• 42:40
  John Osiecki: Miller.
• 42:41
  John Osiecki: It's a really short read.
• 42:42
  John Osiecki: It's, it's about 20 years old now.
• 42:44
  John Osiecki: But it just, it talks, it, it really explores this idea of personal accountability at work and in life.
• 42:50
  John Osiecki: And it's, it's kind of a sales perspective, but he just illustrates some great points about people and relationships and building, you know, partnerships, and he tells this really great story in the opening.
• 43:01
  John Osiecki: And if you humor me, I'll, I'll tell you the story.
• 43:03
  John Osiecki: It's two minutes long.
• 43:04
  John Osiecki: He basically says,"You know, I'm writing this book, and I'm working on different things, and I'm kind of busy.
• 43:08
  John Osiecki: I had a busy day, and I was...
• 43:10
  John Osiecki: There's a restaurant in my area that I thought I would just stop in and grab some lunch, but I didn't have a lot of time.
• 43:15
  John Osiecki: So I just ran in, and the place..." This is a great restaurant, right?
• 43:18
  John Osiecki: And they're super busy.
• 43:19
  John Osiecki: So I went in, and I noticed that there was a place at the bar, and I said,"Hey, can I just jump up there at the bar and grab something real quick?" And they're like,"Uh, yeah, we're super busy, but yeah, you can squeeze in.
• 43:28
  John Osiecki: Somebody just left." So he goes up to the bar and, uh, he sits down, and there's somebody, uh, working, like has dishes, like arm loads of dishes walking by, maybe a busser or something, like a young man, right?
• 43:41
  John Osiecki: And the guy says,"Sir, you know, are you, are you joining us for lunch?" He's like,"Yeah." He goes,"I just want a salad and a Diet Coke.
• 43:47
  John Osiecki: That's all.
• 43:48
  John Osiecki: I just wanted to get a salad and a Diet Coke." And, and he's like,"Well, you know, we're super busy right now," but he's like,"I can get your order and put that in, but we don't have Diet Coke.
• 43:57
  John Osiecki: We serve Pepsi.
• 43:58
  John Osiecki: Would you like a Diet Pepsi?" And he's like,"No, I don't like Diet Pepsi.
• 44:00
  John Osiecki: I'm not...
• 44:01
  John Osiecki: Don't, I don't want that." And he's like,"I'll just have water." He's like,"Okay.
• 44:04
  John Osiecki: Well, you know, it's a little bit busy right now.
• 44:06
  John Osiecki: I'm gonna get to it as fast as I can." So this guy disappears and, uh, you know, he's thinking about his work stuff and just kind of focused there.
• 44:14
  John Osiecki: And two minutes later, he comes back, uh, the waiter comes back with a salad and a soda that he sets down in front of him.
• 44:23
  John Osiecki: And he's like,"Oh, thanks so much.
• 44:24
  John Osiecki: I really appreciate you getting that out so quickly.
• 44:26
  John Osiecki: I am in a hurry, and I really appreciate that." He said,"But I, I don't like Diet Pepsi." He's like,"I, I'll just have water." And he's like,"No, that's, that's a Diet Coke." And so he said,"Well, I don't understand.
• 44:38
  John Osiecki: You told me that you don't have Diet Coke here." And he said,"Well, we don't." He's like,"Well, if you don't have Diet Coke, then where did that come from?" He's like,"Well, there's a grocery store right across the parking lot." He's like,"Wait a second.
• 44:52
  John Osiecki: Like, this place is slammed.
• 44:55
  John Osiecki: You're super busy.
• 44:56
  John Osiecki: How is it that you had the time to go across the street and get me a Diet Coke for my lunch?
• 45:04
  John Osiecki: That's, that, that's not even possible." He said,"I didn't.
• 45:07
  John Osiecki: My manager did." So think about that.
• 45:14
  John Osiecki: There's a lot of layers to that from an accountability perspective Right?
• 45:20
  John Osiecki: To walk across the parking lot and spend a buck on a soda to please a customer who's just having a salad for lunch, that is way over and above, right, that you would ever expect.
• 45:32
  John Osiecki: And so the author goes And so he built this book around this idea of personal accountability.
• 45:38
  John Osiecki: You are the customer.
• 45:39
  John Osiecki: You're coming into the restaurant.
• 45:41
  John Osiecki: You want something that they don't have.
• 45:43
  John Osiecki: You may not come back in the future if they don't have what you want.
• 45:46
  John Osiecki: And so this guy is going over and above, and he didn't just do it himself.
• 45:50
  John Osiecki: He relied on other people, like his manager, and his manager was willing to walk across the parking lot and spend a buck because it mattered to his employee that this person have a positive experience.
• 46:03
  John Osiecki: Does that happen today?
• 46:04
  John Osiecki: How many times have you been into, you know, a s- um, home improvement store and people just run the other way, right?
• 46:14
  John Osiecki: What is more important that those people could be doing than helping you find the item you want to buy?
• 46:21
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 46:21
  John Osiecki: We have the complete opposite approach when it comes to accountability in our society today, and I think that story illustrates it really well.
• 46:29
  John Osiecki: You could be successful at anything if you just listen to your customers and you attend to their needs, and so much of what we do is the opposite of that.
• 46:39
  John Osiecki: In food service, in commercial everything, it is the opposite.
• 46:44
  John Osiecki: And so I hope with the young people, I think this is gonna change, right?
• 46:47
  John Osiecki: People are gonna get fed up.
• 46:49
  John Osiecki: They're just tired of mediocrity everywhere, and when people start to figure this out, they're gonna see that it's important to make those connections, right?
• 47:01
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 47:01
  John Osiecki: And so personal accountability, I think, goes a long way.
• 47:04
  John Osiecki: So anyway, the author says,"I went back to that restaurant," right,"hoping to see that guy again," and guess what?
• 47:10
  John Osiecki: He wasn't there.
• 47:11
  John Osiecki: Do you know why?
• 47:11
  John Osiecki: He got promoted.
• 47:13
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 47:13
  John Osiecki: And he wasn't at that restaurant anymore.
• 47:15
  John Osiecki: He was a manager at another branch- Yeah or something
• 47:18
  Duane Newton: like that.
• 47:18
  Duane Newton: So- I, I think that that, that Oh, you can go.
• 47:20
  Duane Newton: Finish.
• 47:21
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 47:21
  John Osiecki: That's So that's kind of the story, and that leads into a bunch of other examples that he shares about personal accountability, things that we can do, some tips and tricks.
• 47:29
  John Osiecki: And so again, it's two hours.
• 47:31
  John Osiecki: I read it on a flight, you know, going across- Mm-hmm the country.
• 47:34
  John Osiecki: It's a really great book that gives some really keen insights on what he's learned, and I think it applies universally to personal life- Mm-hmm as well as kind of what we do in our work.
• 47:43
  Duane Newton: Well, the In the, the leadership example from the manager, like he, he, um, exhibited the behaviors that he's trying- That's right to get out.
• 47:59
  Duane Newton: You know, that he wants his staff to have, you know?
• 48:02
  Duane Newton: And so there- Yeah that was the culture of the restaurant, is the I'm super busy, I still notice that this is something that we could do.
• 48:13
  Duane Newton: How can I do that?
• 48:14
  Duane Newton: Let me talk to my boss.
• 48:16
  Duane Newton: My boss figures it out, he's, he's going above and beyond and it creates that culture of that willingness to go above and beyond because you're trying to help, you're trying to serve your customers.
• 48:29
  Duane Newton: And- Yeah I, you know, I think that I'd like to hear from you h- the kinds of things that you think are important as a leader of big teams, complex teams, cross-functional teams, um, maybe t- teams that have different agendas or, um, are trying to accomplish different things that might be competing, um You know, that-that's not a, it's not an unusual scenario in a clinical lab either, you know, where you've- Yeah got different groups that have priorities and trying to get them all to work together and to be successful.
• 49:21
  Duane Newton: And how, how have you incorporated your, some of these things into the approaches that you take with, with your teams?
• 49:30
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 49:31
  John Osiecki: It's, it's a good question.
• 49:33
  John Osiecki: You know, I, I focus a lot on integrity and outcomes-based planning, you know, with my teams.
• 49:39
  John Osiecki: I, I think that's, um, area of focus that we struggle with, just thinking about long-term strategic plans.
• 49:48
  John Osiecki: You know, oftentimes we scramble around putting out fires and fixing problems, and the reality is 90% of those problems will go away if we just catch our breath and actually plan and execute, you know?
• 50:01
  John Osiecki: Um, so I spend a lot of time with my teams talking through that.
• 50:04
  John Osiecki: But this leads me to another really great book that I read a few years ago, it's probably been six years or so.
• 50:10
  John Osiecki: There's a gentleman out of France that's, uh, he looks...
• 50:13
  John Osiecki: done a bunch of research and studies, organizations, and he wrote this book called Reinventing Organizations, and this is like, uh, it's, it's quite complicated, uh, but he has a nice summary, like a cartoon guide, you know, to this really in-depth a- assessment of organizations.
• 50:30
  John Osiecki: And basically what he does is he goes through history and he talks about where we are today and sort of the evolution of the human spirit, so to speak.
• 50:37
  John Osiecki: And he says,"Think about it.
• 50:38
  John Osiecki: What are some of the things that we talk about all the time?
• 50:40
  John Osiecki: We talk about net promoter score and engagement and all these things.
• 50:44
  John Osiecki: How do you get people engaged?
• 50:46
  John Osiecki: Is it by, you know, uh, walking behind them with a big stick?
• 50:51
  John Osiecki: You know, is that how you motivate people to do their best work?" It's not.
• 50:55
  John Osiecki: It's really, it's connecting with the things that are most important to them and connecting with their talents and abilities, the things that are, uh, most, um, where they can make the greatest contributions.
• 51:09
  John Osiecki: And so that's one of the things I focus on.
• 51:11
  John Osiecki: We talked about servant leadership.
• 51:12
  John Osiecki: That's super important, but the most important principle I think that I spend time on with my teams is empowering teams to make decisions and to guide the activities of the organization.
• 51:23
  John Osiecki: So, for example, if I sit as the president of an organization, I'm not actually talking and in the weeds on the problems, the challenges, the issues like people are that are boots on the ground and out there really solving the problems.
• 51:38
  John Osiecki: And so from my perspective, those decisions should be made at that level and in- involve those folks.
• 51:44
  John Osiecki: And so we've created integrated teams where we collaborate.
• 51:48
  John Osiecki: Um, I, I shared a, an exercise with my team, uh, when we first kicked this off.
• 51:53
  John Osiecki: I brought a bunch of puzzles to our meeting.
• 51:57
  John Osiecki: So there's- You know, a, uh, some of these, like, Japanese puzzles, you know, that are metal that you have to, like, unhook, and then, like, a crossword puzzle and a word find.
• 52:08
  John Osiecki: And then there was, um, uh, just a regular, you know, cardboard puzzle where you put the pieces together.
• 52:15
  John Osiecki: Then I have a 3D puzzle that actually sits here, uh, as a memorial to that meeting.
• 52:21
  John Osiecki: Uh, it's a squirrel that are...
• 52:23
  John Osiecki: Have you ever done a 3D puzzle before?
• 52:25
  Duane Newton: Mm-mm.
• 52:26
  John Osiecki: So these are puzzles where you have to stack the pieces in three dimensions, so it's not just a flat two dimension- Mm-hmm but three-dimensional.
• 52:32
  John Osiecki: And so what I did is I put a puzzle on each table, and then I asked the teams, I said,"Okay, go.
• 52:39
  John Osiecki: You're gonna solve the puzzle." And so what we found was that some people love it, right?
• 52:43
  John Osiecki: They're like,"Oh, I love the 3D squirrel puzzle.
• 52:46
  John Osiecki: Let me jump in." And they get right in there, and they do it.
• 52:49
  John Osiecki: That's a strength, right?
• 52:50
  John Osiecki: That person is comfortable, excited, not worried about failure, right, on the 3D squirrel puzzle.
• 52:56
  John Osiecki: Other people, that's not for them, so let's not put them in the group that's focusing on the 3D squirrel puzzle.
• 53:02
  John Osiecki: Don't do it.
• 53:03
  John Osiecki: Put them somewhere else, right?
• 53:04
  John Osiecki: So this is another super important principle of leadership.
• 53:09
  John Osiecki: You don't wanna put your catcher in right field.
• 53:14
  John Osiecki: You're gonna lose the game every time.
• 53:16
  John Osiecki: Mm.
• 53:16
  John Osiecki: If the person who's best at catching is in right field, you will lose.
• 53:21
  John Osiecki: And so for whatever reason, uh, you know, I think we struggle with that principle as, as managers.
• 53:27
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 53:27
  John Osiecki: So we need to understand and assess where are people's strengths and where are their weaknesses, and we all have them, and it's okay to have weaknesses.
• 53:35
  John Osiecki: And then let's get these people in the right positions so that we can collectively win.
• 53:41
  Duane Newton: Well, and you've shared, uh, a story with me recently about a situation where a manager had their catcher in right field, and-
• 53:52
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm
• 53:53
  Duane Newton: you know, like, so how, how do you have...
• 53:56
  Duane Newton: You know, what's that conversation like with the manager, and how do you- It, it's just, it's, it's challenging.
• 54:05
  Duane Newton: Um, m- m- maybe you could talk about what you perceive- Yeah as the challenges are, you know, what the manager perceived as a challenge, what-
• 54:15
  John Osiecki: Sure,
• 54:15
  Duane Newton: yeah what the, the player felt like they were trying to accomplish and maybe weren't fitting.
• 54:21
  Duane Newton: You know, like what- Sure what were you seeing at, from your level in that scenario?
• 54:24
  John Osiecki: Yeah, no, and I, I think it's a delicate balance, right?
• 54:26
  John Osiecki: And it's something that we all struggle with, and it's never perfect.
• 54:29
  John Osiecki: But, uh, you know, we put people out there, we try to build them up and give them confidence, and let's just say they're on the pitching mound, right?
• 54:36
  John Osiecki: And they're out there pitching.
• 54:37
  John Osiecki: We just went to, uh, an Indians game last week, so this is a fresh analogy for me.
• 54:42
  John Osiecki: There's a pitcher out there throwing, you know, throwing pitches, but the other team's hitting home runs, you know?
• 54:49
  John Osiecki: How long are you gonna leave that person in?
• 54:52
  John Osiecki: You can lose the inning, and you can lose the game, and it's up to the manager to decide when enough is enough.
• 55:00
  John Osiecki: And so I have to step back and let the manager have that experience, but I'm here to be supportive and say,"Hmm, did you notice what happens, you know, in this situation?
• 55:13
  John Osiecki: Was that person performing to your expectations?
• 55:16
  John Osiecki: Were you clear with them about how they weren't meeting your expectations?
• 55:20
  John Osiecki: Is it time to hand over the ball, or do you believe that they can continue going forward and resolve, you know, and- Mm-hmm and steer the ship back in the right direction?" And again, that's I don't want to take that away from someone to go through that experience.
• 55:35
  John Osiecki: We talk a lot about, uh, failures, right?
• 55:38
  John Osiecki: And I share this with my leadership team as well.
• 55:40
  John Osiecki: You know, we as an organization, imagine we're a big ship sailing through the ocean.
• 55:44
  John Osiecki: We can make mistakes, and we can take shots on the hull of the ship as long as those shots are above the waterline, right?
• 55:53
  John Osiecki: Because we can repair that.
• 55:55
  John Osiecki: So if this person is failing and you see it, but you believe in them and think they can do it, and they fail horribly, as long as that's above the waterline, we're okay.
• 56:05
  John Osiecki: But when it's below the waterline, that's my accountability as a manager, and I take it away from you.
• 56:11
  John Osiecki: So I make it really clear to my managers,"Hey, this is above the waterline.
• 56:15
  John Osiecki: Your call what you want to do with this, but be aware there's consequences." And ultimately, they have to step in, you know, and resolve, uh, when things go south.
• 56:24
  John Osiecki: But, but it's my job to make sure that we're not sinking the ship.
• 56:28
  John Osiecki: I don't know, does that make sense?
• 56:29
  Duane Newton: It does.
• 56:29
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 56:29
  Duane Newton: It, it actually reminded me, it, it kind of hearkens back to, um, a question that I asked you before or, or something that I recognized about what you're talking about, which was having, um- Creating an environment where people feel safe to try and fail.
• 56:52
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 56:53
  Duane Newton: You know, have the, have the leeway to make decisions and see what happens.
• 56:58
  Duane Newton: And, um, in the f- the f- um, I told a story in an, in an earlier episode about, um, standing up in f- in a lab meeting as a postdoc and telling how I screwed something up and how And I shared it because I didn't want anyone else to make the same mistake.
• 57:20
  Duane Newton: And-
• 57:20
  John Osiecki: Sure
• 57:21
  Duane Newton: um, one of my fellow postdocs came up to me after the lab meeting and was like,"I can't believe you did that." I was like,"Yeah, it was pretty stupid.""No, I can't believe you got up in front of the whole group and told everybody." I'm like,"Y- yeah." I mean, what do I d- I This was I made a, uh, I made an assumption about a process, and I was struggling for two months on this project because I made that assumption.
• 57:49
  Duane Newton: I don't want anyone else to have to go through that again, you know?
• 57:51
  Duane Newton: And so it was, that was a weird thing to go through.
• 57:55
  Duane Newton: But then as a, um, in Rochester, i- in the fellowship program, we started getting invited to, um, clinical pathology case conference where, um, it was typically the pathologists and the residents and fellows would present cases.
• 58:17
  Duane Newton: And, uh, during my time at Rochester, Marilyn encouraged the, the new chair to include the microfellows in that conversation.
• 58:28
  Duane Newton: And the chair at the time was Steve Spitalnick, who is a, um, blood banker, so really familiar with lab medicine and very engaged.
• 58:39
  Duane Newton: But he create In, in this conference, his whole point was to bring up challenging cases and- Yeah what did you learn from it?
• 58:49
  Duane Newton: And he created this place where it was I mean, and he talked about it and, and said,"This is a safe environment.
• 58:57
  Duane Newton: If you can't stand up here and, and show and talk about mistakes and learn from them, there's no, there's no place to do that'cause we wanna learn f- from that.
• 59:10
  Duane Newton: We wanna, we want people to see." And it wasn't just the trainees.
• 59:15
  Duane Newton: He would call on faculty and ask them questions or,"Why weren't you there when th- whatever happened?" Or, you know, whatever it was, it was everyone had an opportunity to share and to have, um- Have feedback given to them about performance regardless of what their, what their level was.
• 59:42
  Duane Newton: But it was done in a learning, um, stepping stone type of a way, not in a, in an obstacle or a punitive, uh, really f- in a punitive way.
• 59:53
  Duane Newton: And I think that that's, that has always stuck with me.
• 59:57
  Duane Newton: And as It was, I would say, virtually impossible in the clinical setting to recreate that type of an environment.
• 1:00:09
  Duane Newton: As much as I tried with our trainees, they were not willing to do that because there wasn't a community of faculty and leaders that were exemplifying that behavior.
• 1:00:21
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  Duane Newton: So I, I think it's really important, and I want to acknowledge that, you know, the impact that you have in creating teams and, and being at a level Where you have a variety of, uh, different folks in leadership positions under you, that, that, that has a huge impact in, on so many people and the effectiveness of the organization.
• 1:00:50
  Duane Newton: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:00:50
  Duane Newton: I've seen it, I've seen it not...
• 1:00:52
  Duane Newton: be the, the opposite.
• 1:00:55
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:00:57
  John Osiecki: Yeah, and it's a delicate balance, right?
• 1:00:58
  John Osiecki: And I think it's difficult, uh, in the current environment as well.
• 1:01:03
  John Osiecki: Um, you know, again, the, the overall goal for us is to create an environment where people can be heard, and that's really the goal of this book, you know, Reinventing Organizations.
• 1:01:13
  John Osiecki: It's about the fact...
• 1:01:14
  John Osiecki: I talked about puzzles, right?
• 1:01:15
  John Osiecki: Each of us has talents and abilities.
• 1:01:17
  John Osiecki: We have a lot to contribute.
• 1:01:18
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:19
  John Osiecki: We don't wanna shut that down, right?
• 1:01:20
  John Osiecki: We don't wanna create an environment where people can't express themselves, they can't bring ideas to the table.
• 1:01:26
  John Osiecki: We don't wanna stifle innovation and problem-solving and improvement b- because we're so merit-focused, right, on only the wins and not learning from the setbacks.
• 1:01:39
  John Osiecki: It becomes a real challenge, right?
• 1:01:40
  John Osiecki: And so there's a delicate balance there.
• 1:01:42
  John Osiecki: And so we do, we spend a lot of time on that, talking about...
• 1:01:44
  John Osiecki: Another thing, too, I think we fail to do, and it, I think this touches on what you were, uh, um, illustrating earlier, we don't spend enough time.
• 1:01:53
  John Osiecki: This is a military thing, if you think about it.
• 1:01:55
  John Osiecki: When the military goes and they have a mission, they debrief.
• 1:01:58
  John Osiecki: They go through the exercise and they say,"Okay, what worked?
• 1:02:01
  John Osiecki: What didn't work?
• 1:02:01
  John Osiecki: What surprised us?" We don't do that in the world, you know, a- as much as we should.
• 1:02:06
  John Osiecki: Um, we go through lots of things, but we tend not, we just brush those things aside and maybe don't spend the time we need.
• 1:02:12
  John Osiecki: And your, your story kind of illustrates that.
• 1:02:15
  John Osiecki: Like, we need to pause and say,"Hey, how can we do this better in the future?
• 1:02:19
  John Osiecki: How can we improve the process?
• 1:02:20
  John Osiecki: What were some of the challenges that we didn't anticipate?" So that it's easier for people in the future to go through something similar and not to experience the same challenges, right?
• 1:02:31
  Duane Newton: How, how have you incorporate that, incorporated that operationally into your, um, environment?
• 1:02:38
  John Osiecki: Yeah, we do, we do exactly that, is we have debriefs.
• 1:02:41
  John Osiecki: We sit and talk specifically about an activity, an event, what worked, what didn't work, what surprised you, how can we do this better in the future, what were the communication gaps?
• 1:02:51
  John Osiecki: I think that's always...
• 1:02:53
  John Osiecki: It seems like everything comes back to communication.
• 1:02:55
  John Osiecki: A lack of communication, poor communication, incomplete communication, and so we spend a lot of time just going through.
• 1:03:02
  John Osiecki: And I think it drives the team a little crazy sometimes, uh, to have to go through those exercises, but- It does bring a lot of value, and it, it really elevates, you know, your capabilities and your success when you have those conversations.
• 1:03:17
  John Osiecki: I also think it creates that, that environment where people feel humility, right?
• 1:03:22
  John Osiecki: And they can say,"Yeah, I could've done that better," or,"Oh, we should've done that differently." You know, and that's the other thing too is we go forward and we do stuff and we're like,"Wow, look at us.
• 1:03:29
  John Osiecki: We did a great job.
• 1:03:30
  John Osiecki: That was really good." Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:31
  John Osiecki: And then the next time we do it, it's not so good because we forgot about all the things we learned last time.
• 1:03:37
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:37
  John Osiecki: And we're, you know, we're moving down a little bit, uh, because we hadn't really, uh, revisited the feedback and the challenges.
• 1:03:47
  John Osiecki: So, uh, yeah, so we do spend a lot of time debriefing on things.
• 1:03:51
  Duane Newton: Do you feel like you Have the time and space to t- to do those debriefs without pressure from other parts of the organization, particularly, uh, the business side.
• 1:04:07
  Duane Newton: So, you know, I think I, I could anticipate that, you know, on the sales and marketing side, the non-scientific sides of the organization, that Not that there isn't on the scientific side, but it's like, okay, what's the next, the next milestone to get to, the next thing to achieve?
• 1:04:29
  Duane Newton: You know, got to We got to launch, we got to roll out, we got to change.
• 1:04:33
  Duane Newton: Whatever it is, there's the next, the next big thing that we have to, um, we have to accomplish, and now we have this group of scientists over here that just wanna sit back and think about stuff, you know?
• 1:04:47
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:48
  Duane Newton: Like, d- is there this Do you feel competing pressure or, um, a, a pressure to, to within organizations to, to not take that time?
• 1:05:05
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:05:05
  John Osiecki: The way I always position this, I kind of anchor it in organizational maturity.
• 1:05:10
  John Osiecki: How mature are we as an organization?
• 1:05:13
  John Osiecki: Maybe we're just putting out fires, and that's where we're at.
• 1:05:17
  John Osiecki: That's just how, that's how we function, you know?
• 1:05:19
  John Osiecki: Something explodes, and we go in and put out the fire.
• 1:05:22
  John Osiecki: And we can do that, but that's not a happy place.
• 1:05:26
  John Osiecki: Our customers aren't happy.
• 1:05:27
  John Osiecki: We're not happy.
• 1:05:28
  John Osiecki: No one's happy.
• 1:05:29
  John Osiecki: Or we can invest in our people, we can invest in our relationships, right, through insights gathering and through engagement, and we can plan.
• 1:05:37
  John Osiecki: And again, I My team hates hearing this over and over and over again, but to me it's all about strategic planning.
• 1:05:42
  John Osiecki: What is the most important thing for us to do today that's gonna influence a positive outcome tomorrow, and how do we structure our day and our week and our month and our year and the next three years to be able to address the greatest needs that our customers have?
• 1:06:00
  John Osiecki: It goes back to the Diet Coke, you know?
• 1:06:04
  John Osiecki: You can either ignore that and put a Diet Pepsi on the table, which means you're not listening.
• 1:06:12
  John Osiecki: How often does that happen?
• 1:06:14
  John Osiecki: You can put a water on the table and say,"What you want, I can't provide'cause I'm not willing to." Or you can go the extra mile and put the time and effort and energy into walking across the parking lot and getting a Diet Coke, right?
• 1:06:28
  John Osiecki: So it's all about organizational maturity.
• 1:06:32
  John Osiecki: It's about support.
• 1:06:33
  John Osiecki: And fortunately for me, I, I've had great support, so when I go back to the organization, say,"We need to pause.
• 1:06:41
  John Osiecki: Let's catch our breath.
• 1:06:42
  John Osiecki: Let's take some time to think strategically.
• 1:06:44
  John Osiecki: Let's put some plans in place," uh, those are I've had the ability to do that.
• 1:06:50
  John Osiecki: And so I think part of it too is a- also laying out the plan, the vision, this is what it looks like, here's how it has an impact or benefit, and, uh, to be able to implement that.
• 1:07:00
  John Osiecki: It takes energy and effort, right?
• 1:07:01
  John Osiecki: And support across different teams.
• 1:07:03
  John Osiecki: But we have good alignment, uh, where I'm at currently, and we have great, uh, uh, feedback and, you know, there's good humility across the teams to share perspectives and learn from failures and, you know, uh, keep moving forward.
• 1:07:19
  Duane Newton: Uh, you said something a- at the very end that I, um, I recognize and, and maybe some people see it as a little bit of a barrier, but it does take a lot of time and energy not only to do that, but, you know, to go back to your baseball analogy, learn who your best catcher is, learn who your best right fielder is, learn who your best pitchers are, you know, to understand what the strengths and, um, you know, er- growth opportunities for your team, your individual- Yeah members of your, your team are.
• 1:08:03
  Duane Newton: Um, that's-- I mean, I just-- I don't think there's anything It's clear that you've invested that time and energy be- uh, because it's something important to you.
• 1:08:17
  Duane Newton: And, um, but I also Maybe you can just make a comment on that perspective or that approach and why- why you think it's important.
• 1:08:32
  Duane Newton: Um, I mean, we've talked about why it's important, but I think, you know, there are Are there some tangible things that you can identify- Yeah that because you've taken that time, you know, this, this is the impact that that has had on- Sure on your team or your organization, your product development, the bottom line, whatever it is.
• 1:08:54
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:08:55
  John Osiecki: Yeah, it reminds me again of another book that I'll, uh, refer you to.
• 1:08:59
  Duane Newton: I was- A- and I'm gonna, I'm gonna write down, uh, and provide links to all these books- Yeah, yeah because I'm sure there are people out there that are gonna like,"What was that again?"
• 1:09:07
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:09:08
  John Osiecki: Well, it's interesting.
• 1:09:08
  John Osiecki: I So I was at church talking to a colleague, and I didn't realize kind of what his background was, but he's an executive for Pepsi, okay?
• 1:09:17
  John Osiecki: And, uh, I asked him, I said,"Hey, you know, I'm talking to my team about some stuff," and I was looking for a good book, like a motivational book, something that they could read.
• 1:09:25
  John Osiecki: And he's like,"Oh, I've got the best book for you.
• 1:09:26
  John Osiecki: I, this is my favorite book.
• 1:09:28
  John Osiecki: I use this all the time.
• 1:09:29
  John Osiecki: It's a really great book." And so it's by Mike Michalowicz, Michalowicz.
• 1:09:35
  John Osiecki: I'm not sure how you pronounce his last name, but it's called All In, is the name of the book.
• 1:09:39
  John Osiecki: And he tells this really great story in there about onboarding.
• 1:09:44
  John Osiecki: He's like, okay, you bring in the new employee and they're doing their job.
• 1:09:48
  John Osiecki: Let's think about this.
• 1:09:49
  John Osiecki: How important is that first impression, the first two weeks, the first two months?
• 1:09:54
  John Osiecki: And he goes through this exper- He, he tells this, this story about, um, this is an IT company that has this...
• 1:10:01
  John Osiecki: Or, I'm sorry, maybe it was a healthcare company.
• 1:10:03
  John Osiecki: I don't remember the details.
• 1:10:03
  John Osiecki: But it was basically a company that needed software, right, to manage whatever their tool was.
• 1:10:08
  John Osiecki: And so they went through and they interviewed a bunch of people, and they found this guy who was really great.
• 1:10:12
  John Osiecki: And so they're like,"You're amazing.
• 1:10:14
  John Osiecki: You're a great fit for the company.
• 1:10:15
  John Osiecki: We're gonna hire you.
• 1:10:16
  John Osiecki: Go do your thing." So they didn't really give him direction.
• 1:10:19
  John Osiecki: There was no babysitting.
• 1:10:20
  John Osiecki: There was no hand-holding.
• 1:10:21
  John Osiecki: There was no...
• 1:10:22
  John Osiecki: They just said,"You have to implement this, you know, software with our customers so that they can get their stuff done, and you need to do that." So this person, uh, came in and did a great job, right?
• 1:10:33
  John Osiecki: Interacting with the customers, understanding what they needed, but built something that management wasn't aware of, didn't have the details, was kind of just doing his own thing, and apparently built a structure into the company that depended on his interaction with the system.
• 1:10:53
  John Osiecki: And so then he goes back to the management and says,"Hey, um, I think I'm overworked and I'm not paid enough, and you're gonna compensate me with X, Y, and Z so that we can go forward." And he said, so basically this person came in and was- holding them hostage, right?
• 1:11:09
  John Osiecki: Because he had built out this whole thing.
• 1:11:11
  John Osiecki: He's like,"What, what do you do?" You know, as a leader in a company, y- that's basically blackmail is what was happening.
• 1:11:17
  John Osiecki: But it was their own fault because they weren't engaged.
• 1:11:21
  John Osiecki: They didn't give clear direction.
• 1:11:22
  John Osiecki: They weren't aware of what was going on.
• 1:11:24
  John Osiecki: And so, that was a really good illustration of, hey, if you're not aligned with your people, if you're not spending time showing them the vision of what we're doing here, and then deliberately h- connecting the dots on how we wanna be successful, and whether that's in the clinical space or in industry or what- wherever, it's critical to make those connections.
• 1:11:44
  John Osiecki: And how to get these individuals to be all in, you know, the, the book talks about how every employee can be all in.
• 1:11:52
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:53
  John Osiecki: It's dependent on us as managers to create that environment where we're connecting to people's core beliefs, their core values, their Motivation, right?
• 1:12:06
  John Osiecki: To get out of bed in the morning and go to work, the impact, uh, that they can drive.
• 1:12:11
  John Osiecki: And so that's a big part of this, I think, is just driving those understandings, I think, within the team members, and then helping them to see, uh, that there's an opportunity here.
• 1:12:21
  John Osiecki: There's runway, there's growth, there's recognition for the work that they're doing, and that they have a voice.
• 1:12:29
  John Osiecki: And, uh, you know, if you think, th- that other book about reinventing organizations talks about this.
• 1:12:34
  John Osiecki: 500 years ago, people were lost in these huge organizations that were just y- you went to work and did your thing and punched your timecard, and you got your, your money.
• 1:12:45
  John Osiecki: People don't want that.
• 1:12:45
  John Osiecki: They wanna be creative.
• 1:12:47
  John Osiecki: They wanna make contributions in meaningful ways.
• 1:12:50
  John Osiecki: They wanna evolve, and, um, that, that's what we're, we're seeing today, and that's what the future is gonna hold, is really tapping into people's core belief system and tapping into our desires to improve healthcare, right?
• 1:13:03
  John Osiecki: And to improve patient care.
• 1:13:04
  John Osiecki: We all know people that have had negative experiences with healthcare, and that's what drives a lot of us, I think, to continue going forward, uh, to introduce innovation.
• 1:13:13
  John Osiecki: And we're on the precipice, right, of this huge change in healthcare and society with all the artificial intelligence and the automation and all the new technology that's coming.
• 1:13:24
  John Osiecki: Huge changes are coming, and we need that mindset, that growth mindset, rather than a fixed mindset going forward.
• 1:13:32
  Duane Newton: Oh, that may lead directly into my kinda wrap-up question for you, but it's, like, what's, what's moti- what's motivating you for, you know, your future, you know, the future part of your career?
• 1:13:48
  Duane Newton: What are the things that- Yes are keeping you excited, keeping you engaged- Yeah that you, that you want to try to accomplish, you know, uh, and that as you're, you know, we're kind of at similar points in our lives.
• 1:14:03
  Duane Newton: You're younger than me, though.
• 1:14:04
  Duane Newton: Sure.
• 1:14:05
  Duane Newton: I think you have a lot more time in service than I have left.
• 1:14:09
  Duane Newton: But maybe you don't want to.
• 1:14:11
  Duane Newton: I know what's, what's the, what are the directions that you wanna go, or what are the things that keep you excited about staying in the workforce?
• 1:14:21
  John Osiecki: Yeah, I think, I think right now it's super exciting, just this confluence of all these things coming together.
• 1:14:26
  John Osiecki: It's great to hear about the advances that are being made, you know, outside of the US as well as inside the US when it comes to healthcare.
• 1:14:34
  John Osiecki: Had some great interactions with some of the clinical settings, the more innovative ones that are adopting robotics or, you know, drones flying equipment around the medical campus, and just some really great stuff that's, that's being implemented.
• 1:14:47
  John Osiecki: All the AI tools that are, you know, being discussed, not yet implemented, and then how far we've come with machine learning.
• 1:14:55
  John Osiecki: Every time you go to a conference, right, there's new insights on that, and I hear more and more about that every day.
• 1:15:01
  John Osiecki: Um, I would say when this first started, you know, the whole AI thing, and I would have to say I was sort of a naysayer initially.
• 1:15:11
  John Osiecki: You know, it's like,"Oh, this is gonna be a problem.
• 1:15:13
  John Osiecki: It's...
• 1:15:14
  John Osiecki: Is it really gonna help?" You know, are there certain situations where we can, um- You know, making an im-im-impact here and, uh, really drive success for patients that we don't have to babysit or that doesn't have, you know, negative consequences that we're-- we can't see.
• 1:15:32
  John Osiecki: And I don't know if I shared this with you before, but we, we were at a conference in Europe.
• 1:15:35
  John Osiecki: Did I share this?
• 1:15:36
  John Osiecki: No.
• 1:15:36
  John Osiecki: I'll tell the story again.
• 1:15:37
  John Osiecki: We were at a conference in Europe, and we were hosting, you know, clinical laboratory leaders.
• 1:15:41
  John Osiecki: And so these were, like, predominant kind of, uh, laboratory leaders from Europe.
• 1:15:46
  John Osiecki: And, uh, we invited someone that was an AI expert, and he was young, you know, very knowledgeable in artificial intelligence.
• 1:15:54
  John Osiecki: And he came and he talked about the future, and he just said, you know,"In the future, artificial intelligence is gonna use all this data, and we have opportunities to really improve the way we deliver care.
• 1:16:02
  John Osiecki: And you, you haven't really-- you don't understand because you don't see it yet.
• 1:16:07
  John Osiecki: But when it comes, and this is happening behind the scenes today, but will be, you know, in the forefront here soon, is that some of the things we're doing today, we won't need to do because we have these tools." And so, um, I reflected on that a bit, and it, it was interesting to see the panel.
• 1:16:22
  John Osiecki: Most of them were kinda our age and older and, uh, they were set in their ways, and they had honed their skills.
• 1:16:28
  John Osiecki: They were amazing at the things that they did in the clinical lab, and they were very aware of the stumbling blocks and the limitations and the challenges, right, in the clinical setting.
• 1:16:37
  John Osiecki: And they said,"You know what?
• 1:16:37
  John Osiecki: We've done everything for years and years.
• 1:16:39
  John Osiecki: We've dedicated our lives, you know, to solving some of these problems, and you're, you're telling me software's gonna fix this?
• 1:16:46
  John Osiecki: Like, no.
• 1:16:47
  John Osiecki: It's just not gonna happen." And so the conclusion from this young, you know, AI expert was that we're gonna get lapped.
• 1:16:56
  John Osiecki: Basically, what's gonna happen is we're so fixed on interpretation of our Gram stain and trying to figure out a solution that does that accurately, and again, this is m-me paraphrasing, that that will be irrelevant in the future because the data that will be collected on each patient and a digital twin that can project disease and disease progression is going to tell you what that Gram stain would be, and you never have to touch a slide.
• 1:17:25
  John Osiecki: Right?
• 1:17:25
  John Osiecki: It's gonna identify what the organism is, and what the gram stain would be, and what the resistance patterns would be, because with a high level of confidence, we've mapped this in a digital setting with billions of data points.
• 1:17:39
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:39
  John Osiecki: And so stop focusing on the gram stain and think broader about implementing these.
• 1:17:45
  John Osiecki: And so I've read a couple other articles and some papers and stuff, and a couple other points that have come out to me were, you know, if you think about the automobile when it was introduced, it took about 10 years.
• 1:17:55
  John Osiecki: For, for thousands of years, people rode horses everywhere, right?
• 1:17:59
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:59
  John Osiecki: In 10 years, transportation completely changed, right?
• 1:18:03
  John Osiecki: And now everyone drives automobiles.
• 1:18:05
  John Osiecki: No one rides a horse to work anymore.
• 1:18:07
  John Osiecki: It just doesn't happen, and that's what's gonna happen here.
• 1:18:11
  John Osiecki: Do people die in automobile accidents?
• 1:18:13
  John Osiecki: Every day someone dies, but that doesn't prevent us from using cars as transportation.
• 1:18:20
  John Osiecki: And so if you apply that to AI, that is the There are gonna be issues.
• 1:18:24
  John Osiecki: There are gonna be problems.
• 1:18:24
  John Osiecki: There could be big problems.
• 1:18:25
  John Osiecki: We don't know.
• 1:18:26
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:26
  John Osiecki: But AI is here.
• 1:18:28
  John Osiecki: It's going to be here, and there's gonna be casualties, but we believe that the overall benefit to society is greater than the risk for the damage that it could, it could incur.
• 1:18:41
  John Osiecki: So, so that's another thing I think is fascinating, a little scary, is some of the books that I've read on AI.
• 1:18:48
  John Osiecki: And there's, uh, one in particular that I really enjoyed,'cause it talks not just about medicine, it talks about, you know, banking and all these other industries, and talks about, you know, a lot of the different challenges and stuff that we're gonna see in the future, and how those will be overcome, and a lot of different theories.
• 1:19:04
  John Osiecki: And, uh, so this one is called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he was one of these preeminent leaders in like 2010 that was very focused on developing AI tools, and quite accomplished.
• 1:19:19
  John Osiecki: And it was a New York Times bestseller.
• 1:19:21
  John Osiecki: Uh, a really great book that's, uh, quite exciting and a little scary.
• 1:19:25
  John Osiecki: You know, just to think about the ways in which some people- Mm-hmm can use AI for bad.
• 1:19:29
  John Osiecki: He goes through that, you know?
• 1:19:30
  John Osiecki: And then also goes through the good.
• 1:19:32
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:19:32
  John Osiecki: And, uh, it's disproportionate, you know, the way it could be used and why we need regulation.
• 1:19:37
  John Osiecki: But he talks very specifically about applications and sequencing, and talks about medical treatments, and about developing antibiotics using artificial intelligence, and developing toxic poisons, you know, and how that could be used maliciously.
• 1:19:50
  John Osiecki: So that, well, I think we need to study and learn and grow and understand this and, and make sure we're focused on it, but I think we're gonna see tremendous increases and benefits.
• 1:20:01
  John Osiecki: And so you asked about the future and why I'm excited about the future.
• 1:20:05
  John Osiecki: The, the gentleman that was with us, uh, in Europe at that symposium, he talked about the time when, uh, the microscope and the telescope- Were invented about the same period of time.
• 1:20:17
  John Osiecki: So think about that.
• 1:20:18
  John Osiecki: We could see smaller things than we'd ever seen before, and further away than we'd ever seen before.
• 1:20:25
  John Osiecki: That expanded our knowledge tremendously, right, in that small period of time.
• 1:20:29
  John Osiecki: We are on the precipice of another one of those, you know, events in human history, and we're right in the middle of it.
• 1:20:37
  John Osiecki: Like, it's happening right before us.
• 1:20:40
  John Osiecki: So the next five years, the next 10 years, I don't know what's gonna happen, but there's gonna be amazing things that happen in healthcare, in society, in banking, in all of these areas, right, that we're on the precipice, and I think it's gonna be a wild ride for sure.
• 1:20:56
  John Osiecki: But I also think we have an opportunity to influence that, right?
• 1:20:59
  John Osiecki: We have an opportunity to participate in it and not run away from it.
• 1:21:03
  John Osiecki: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:03
  John Osiecki: So, so that's what we're, we're doing.
• 1:21:05
  John Osiecki: And we, we spend a lot of time in my role thinking about the future and looking at different, uh, solutions and, uh, you know, looking at ways that we can apply those to improve patient care and improve diagnostic testing.
• 1:21:18
  Duane Newton: One of the things that I always take away...
• 1:21:24
  Duane Newton: There's, there's several things that I always take away from every conversation that I have with you, and the first is this feeling of just by talking to you, my eyes come up and I look around and I am more aware.
• 1:21:43
  Duane Newton: You know, because I feel like, you know, I'm on this thing and I'm putting one foot in front of the other, and every time we talk, you encourage me, force me, guide me into looking out and around and think- and seeing and appreciating what's out and around, and I, um, want to thank you for that.
• 1:22:08
  Duane Newton: I, I think the other, uh, thing that I want to acknowledge is, you know, you called yourself a nerdy little kid that liked to read books in the library and, you know, you're the most well-read, well-versed, citing literature person that I know.
• 1:22:32
  Duane Newton: And, um, I think that is a huge and tremendous skill and gift that you have that-- and I appreciate you sharing that, um, with me personally, and I'm sure that anyone who listens to this is, um, gonna be excited and enthusiastic which-- about those topics, which is the, the third thing, is that your energy and enthusiasm for learning and growing is, um, pun intended, infectious.
• 1:23:06
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:23:06
  Duane Newton: And I, um, I appreciate it.
• 1:23:09
  Duane Newton: I want to close with, um- I'm gonna try to keep composed by sharing this.
• 1:23:17
  Duane Newton: I'm gonna close with a, a, a heartfelt thanks to you, and I'm gonna read a poem, um, that you shared with me, uh, during a really tough time.
• 1:23:35
  Duane Newton: And I can remember, uh, where I was sitting and how I was feeling, um, during that time.
• 1:23:47
  Duane Newton: And, uh, you shared, you know, some personal things from your family and your life that, um, I didn't know about that were, um, similar and, and just the empathy was genuine, and I appreciate it.
• 1:24:07
  Duane Newton: And, um, this poem Uh, it, I think it started or reinforced my, um, my love of trees, including this one that's behind me Yeah this, uh, is this 200-year-old or 150-year-old oak tree that is along this running path that I go by frequently, and every time I do, I touch it.
• 1:24:33
  Duane Newton: Um, the, the poem that you shared with me is called Good Timber, and I'm not sure how to pronounce the g- his last name, Douglas Malloch.
• 1:24:44
  Duane Newton: M-A-L- Yeah L-O-C-H The tree that never had to fight for sun and sky and air and light, but stood out in the open plain and always got its share of rain, never became a forest king, but lived and died a scrubby thing.
• 1:25:06
  Duane Newton: The man who never had to toll...
• 1:25:09
  Duane Newton: Excuse me.
• 1:25:10
  Duane Newton: The man who never had to toil to gain and farm his patch of soil, who never had to win his share of sun and sky and light and air, never became a manly man, but lived and died as he began.
• 1:25:24
  Duane Newton: Good timber does not grow with ease.
• 1:25:26
  Duane Newton: The stronger wind, the stronger trees.
• 1:25:30
  Duane Newton: The further sky, the greater length.
• 1:25:33
  Duane Newton: The more the storm, the more the strength.
• 1:25:37
  Duane Newton: By sun and cold, by rain and snow, in trees and men, good timbers grow.
• 1:25:44
  Duane Newton: Where thickest lies the forest growth, we find the patriarchs of both.
• 1:25:51
  Duane Newton: And they hold council with the stars, whose broken branches show the scars.
• 1:25:57
  Duane Newton: Of many winds and much of strife, this is the common law of life And I, I read it and I know it's very, uh, paternalistic and talks about men and patriarchs.
• 1:26:11
  Duane Newton: Um, you know, I think I'll...
• 1:26:15
  Duane Newton: maybe I'll write a, um, more gender inclusive version of it.
• 1:26:20
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:26:20
  Duane Newton: Um, but people, um- People who haven't had to toil, haven't had to grow and get stronger.
• 1:26:30
  John Osiecki: For sure.
• 1:26:31
  Duane Newton: And, um, I think, you know, what I, what you shared and what that did for me was, um- It gave me hope When I wasn't really feeling a lot of it.
• 1:26:54
  John Osiecki: Yeah.
• 1:26:54
  Duane Newton: And, um, and so this, you know, this symbol of a tree, and I look at that tree and it's got, you know, um, half of its side, the limbs are trimmed off because it grew in this place that turned into a farm field and they made a sidewalk by it and have, um, electric lines.
• 1:27:17
  Duane Newton: You know, one of that, that pole is a, is an electrical pole.
• 1:27:21
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:27:21
  Duane Newton: Um, and so they trimmed half the tree down to accommodate our electricity and still it's there, you know.
• 1:27:31
  Duane Newton: And, um, so that tree's symbolic and trees in general are symbolic to me and, and, um, and that's something that, you know, this poem and your friendship and your thoughtfulness and your empathy, um, were, were and have always been very much appreciated and I just wanna thank you for that.
• 1:27:56
  John Osiecki: Yeah, you bet.
• 1:27:57
  John Osiecki: No, the feelings are mutual and I love that poem'cause I think it really does illustrate...
• 1:28:03
  John Osiecki: It changes the narrative.
• 1:28:04
  John Osiecki: I feel like so many people in society are, feel like they're the victim, and I think that changes the narrative.
• 1:28:09
  John Osiecki: This is the way, you know?
• 1:28:12
  John Osiecki: Adversity is the way.
• 1:28:13
  John Osiecki: If you wanna grow, if you want strength, you have to embrace the challenges of life.
• 1:28:19
  John Osiecki: And we as parents, you know, I think that there's this philosophy of protecting everyone from challenges, and that's not why we're here.
• 1:28:27
  John Osiecki: We're here to grow and learn, right, through those, and I think that poem illustrates it very well.
• 1:28:33
  John Osiecki: Yeah, this has been a real pleasure, Duane, to talk with you and, uh, yeah, super excited about the future.
• 1:28:38
  Duane Newton: Thanks, John.
• 1:28:39
  Duane Newton: Thanks.
• 1:28:39
  Duane Newton: I appreciate you.
• 1:28:40
  John Osiecki: Yeah, you bet.
• 1:28:42
  Duane Newton: Take care.
• 1:28:43
  John Osiecki: Okay, see ya.
• 1:28:49
  If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:28:55
  If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode.
• 1:29:04
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• 1:29:13
  Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss.
• 1:29:21
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• 1:29:31
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• 1:29:39
  I look forward to having you join me next time.
• 1:29:42
  Take good care