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A Baby Daughter Stolen With Costs | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon to the UK Column audience. I'm here with
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: a guest today, a lady called Carys, who's come all
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the way from South Wales. Carys, welcome to UK Column
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Studio 2.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: How was the trip down?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Nice trip down.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Nice trip down. And a friend gave you a lift,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: which I thought was a nice touch.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: So thank you very much for coming down. It always
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: makes a difference to be able to sit and talk
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: to somebody in person. zoom calls and distance interviews are
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: fine but it does make a big difference when you
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: can actually sit and have a chat together so yeah
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: brilliant you've got a story um about your daughter you're
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: separated from your daughter and you contacted me a little
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: while ago to talk through what had happened and in
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: particular you said that you were very keen to be
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: able to tell your story to the audience and uh
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: As always with the mums that approach me with cases
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: about the family courts I am always very interested to
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: hear about the cases because I've worked for quite a
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: few years to try and get information and the truth
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: out about what's been happening with the family court but
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: of course the other thing that I've learned is that
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: every case can have similarities but every case is unique
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: to the to the family and the mother concerned and
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: you kindly provided a really excellent summary here so we'll
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: work through that and our aim is to actually try
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: and show the audience explain to the audience what's happened
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: to you and what you've experienced and then there's some
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: really um tough points that we need to discuss about
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: how this system works so let's start at the beginning
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and um just tell us a little bit about, just
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself and then, um, you became
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: pregnant and that's really where the story starts. So you
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: begin where you'd like to.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Um, okay. So I'm a mother of two. I've got, um,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I've got an adult child who, uh, is 26 now,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: who was 19 at the time of my daughter's birth
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: in 2019. Um, uh, This is about family corruption. So
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I had no social services involvement in my son's childhood
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: at all. I brought him up as a single parent
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: very successfully.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: And you're still in contact with your son? Oh, yes, absolutely.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: We're very close. He's a successful, happy, healthy member of society.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I brought him up absolutely fine, no social services involvement.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: And then when my daughter was born in 2019... I
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: was thrown into hell.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So where was your daughter born?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: She was born in the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Right, okay. And so this is really the start, isn't it?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Your daughter's born and what happens? You're there in hospital
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and what was the hospital like? How were you treated?
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: For the first four days, I was treated well. Normally,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: it was the same sort of treatment that I had
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: after the birth of my first child. um and then
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: on day four everything completely changed but I wasn't given
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: any explanation as to why it had changed how would
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: it changed um just the attitude of the staff towards
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: me um I'd had a traumatic birth my daughter had
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: been born by forceps after a very long labor and
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I'd contracted sepsis and I was on crutches um I'd
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: been birth injured so um It was a traumatic birth
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: and my daughter had been taken to the NICU as
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: well because she had also contracted sepsis during the birth.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: So it was a traumatic birth and we were sort
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: of held there. And yeah, it was sort of, I
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: was treated well for the first four days and then
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: there was a marked shift in how I was treated.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And I wasn't given any explanation for that at the time.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Just push this point a little bit. So what changed
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: in the attitude or the way they spoke to you?
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, very much the attitude and also physically I wasn't
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: treated very well. So obviously I was injured and well
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: and I was treated nicely. I was treated with respect
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: in the first four days and then after that I
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: was not treated well at all and it was only...
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: after the removal of my daughter that I realised why
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: from doing subject access requests to the hospital notes to
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: find out what had happened. And it was only then
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: that I found out what had happened and why there
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: was such a marked shift in how I was being treated.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Right. Were you on your own at this stage as
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: a mother or did you have a partner supporting you?
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: No, I had a partner. My daughter's father, we'd been
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: together almost six years at this point at my daughter's birth.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: So we were still together. Right.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: And did he notice the shift in behaviour as well?
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Did that affect him?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: He did, but didn't really stick up for me, didn't
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: question it. He just... It was his first child, so
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: he didn't really have anything to compare it to like
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: I did. Right.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: OK, so the atmosphere changes and then what happens with
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: you and your baby?
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: So... We were kept in hospital for two weeks after
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: the birth. To begin with, that was necessary because, as
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: I said, it was a long, traumatic labour and both
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: of us were unwell. There did seem to be a
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: reluctance to discharge us, but we were eventually discharged home. Unfortunately,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: my daughter's father, his paternity leave had been used up
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: during the time that we were at hospital, so he
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: literally had to drop me and the baby at home and.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Go straight back to work 80 miles away. So I
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: was then effectively a single parent, even though we were
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: still in a relationship. And during that time, between when
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: my daughter was two weeks old, when we were discharged
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: from hospital, up until her removal, I was harassed by
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: the medical profession. That's the only way to put it.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I was harassed. I was subjected to a total of
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: 38 appointments within an eight-week period. which did not happen
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: after the birth of my first child.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Where were those appointments supposed to be?
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Some of them were at home and they were unsolicited.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: They would just turn up at the door unannounced.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: They being what, a midwife?
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: A midwife or health visitors. I also had a GP
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: at one point and lots of people can probably know
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: how difficult it is to get a GP to come
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: and visit someone at home.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't need anyone to visit me at home, yet
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: they sent somebody anyway, and I knew it wasn't normal.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Right. So you've had a traumatic birth and you're a new,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: tired mum.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was on crutches, so I couldn't get up
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: and down the stairs even, but nobody was actually giving
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: me support with any of that, the things I could
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: have done with support with, which is my mobility. I
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: was birth injured. I was exhausted. I was exclusively breastfeeding.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Nobody gave me any support with any of that. But
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: they just kept coming.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: So they came. So what did they do when they
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: came then?
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't really do anything. They just looked at the baby.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: They weighed her repeatedly. But other than that, they didn't
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: really do anything. And nobody would give me any explanation
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: for why they kept coming. And I did sort of
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: get increasingly anxious about it and questioned why it was
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: happening and nobody would give me an answer. Okay.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Did they even indicate that it was... It was not
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: normal for them to be having so many visits. You
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: obviously said to them, why are you visiting me?
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, they sort of gaslit me and acted as though
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I was being paranoid. And I knew I wasn't being paranoid.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: So how long does this go on for?
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: This went on for eight weeks. So my daughter was
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: two weeks old when we were discharged home. And then
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: when she was 10 weeks old. I was coerced into
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: bringing her back to the hospital under false pretenses.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Right. So what did they say to you to get
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you back into the hospital?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: So my daughter had been suffering with sort of colicky
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: reflux symptoms. And again, despite all the visits that I'd
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: been having, nobody was given any support with this. So
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: they coerced me back into hospital basically by suggesting that
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: they were going to finally help. with this newborn reflux.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: So that's how they managed to get me to bring
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: my daughter back to hospital when she was 10 weeks old.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Right. And so you take her back into hospital. What
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: happens then?
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: So for the first couple of days, it seemed reasonable.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: She was given medication for reflux. It seemed plausible. And
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: then her reflux dissipated. She was well. She was very well.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: you know, there was no issue whatsoever. She was feeding well,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: she was sleeping well, she was happy. And there didn't
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: seem to be a reason to keep us there any longer.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: But when I inquired about when they were going to
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: discharge her, I wasn't given an answer. And it was
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: obvious they were reluctant to discharge. And it was at
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: that point that they started doing things to sort of, well,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: looking back, I can see that they were trying to
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: document against me, create scenarios to document against me. But
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: at the time, it just seemed odd. It just seemed odd.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: And you were there with her and you're breastfeeding and
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: all that's going normally.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: So when does that situation change then?
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: So a week later, so by this point, my daughter
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: was 11 weeks old. I was informed that I could
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: no longer enter the ward where she was staying, even
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: though I was exclusively breastfeeding her. And I was told
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: that I would have to stay elsewhere and I wasn't
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: allowed to enter the ward. And if I wanted to
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: have breast milk, I would have to express it elsewhere
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and hand it to a nurse and that she would
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: be fed my breast milk via bottle.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: So when you first went back in, were you staying
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: in the same room as your baby?
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, so she had a cot and I was on
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: a sort of camp bed thing next to her cot.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: And then one day you were told that you're not
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: allowed to stay on the ward.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I was banned from the ward and I
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: didn't know what was going on and I was in turmoil. And...
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I know now, but I didn't know this at the time,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: that a multi-agency secret strategy meeting was being held elsewhere
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: in the hospital where information was being shared that was
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: entirely demonstrably false, but was being presented to the people
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: in this strategy meeting as though it was true.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: So they sort of started by that stage to, I
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: use the expression, gang up on you.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. So all of those who were present at that
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: meeting were given... false information with which to make a
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: decision on whether my baby should be removed from my
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: care and based on that false information they were given
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: they decided that yes my baby should be removed from
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: my care.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: When that decision was made you were just faced with
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the fact that your baby's in still in the hospital
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to see her and what do
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: you do you go home?
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: At that at that point it was presented to me
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: that it would only be for 72 hours it was Um,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: they call it an EPO, which stands for emergency protection order.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: And it was presented to me as though they said
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: it runs out after 72 hours. So in my head,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I thought I was only going to be away from
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: her for 72 hours, which is bad enough with an
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: 11 week old baby when you're exclusively breastfeeding that that
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: was traumatic enough. But I thought all of this would
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: be over in 72 hours. What I didn't know is
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: that an application to family court had been made. I
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: still didn't know about it at this stage. I was
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: only actually given 40 minutes notice of the court hearing.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I couldn't drive at this point. I was still on
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: crutches after the birth. I was injured. I had no
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: way of getting there. I had to, I didn't even
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: have any money with me at the hospital. I had
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: to call a taxi. And thankfully the taxi driver allowed
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: me to ring up and pay him later because I
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: had no money. So, and I think their intention was
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that I wouldn't get to the court in time and
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: this would all happen without me being there. And it
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: would look as though I didn't care because I wasn't there.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: I was only given 40 minutes notice.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: And was that a local court?
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was Cardiff Family Court.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you get there, but are you represented? Because
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: sometimes I know mothers that are put in this sort
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: of situation and they get to the court and by
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: some strange miracle there's a legal team waiting to help them.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: How did that go for you?
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: There wasn't anyone waiting to help me, but during that
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: 40 minutes where I also had to try and get
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: myself to the court from the hospital, I was also
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: ringing around solicitors' firms. I had no knowledge of family
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: law at this point, so I just sort of had
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: to take the first solicitor that had availability for right
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: now because I was only given the 40-minute notice.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately, the person that I got was not. a
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: good solicitor was not a good person to help with this.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Okay. We can perhaps come back onto that. Um, what's,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: what's the result of that court case then?
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: The result of that court case is that it all
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: happened in secret. Obviously no jury, it's family court. It
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: all happened in secret. There's no outside oversight. Nobody from
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: the outside can intervene, including the police, including MPs, um, uh,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: a necessary care order, uh, was put on my daughter
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: for the entirety of her minority until she's 18. I
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to present any evidence. I wasn't allowed to
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: call witnesses, including health witnesses, including my adult son, who
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: I'd brought up on my own. I was just entirely
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: prevented from doing that. And I was also.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Carys, just be clear, that was all decided at that
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: very first hearing?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: No, that was decided over 26 weeks. So there were
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: several hearings. I can't remember how many, maybe six or
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: seven hearings altogether. But many of those I was not
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: allowed to speak.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: So over those, we'll say, seven hearings, what was the
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: actual basis for your daughter being taken away from you?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: The basis for my daughter being taken away from me
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: was that I had been falsely diagnosed with a psychiatric
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: illness that I didn't have at the age of 12,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: 30 years before my daughter's birth by a rogue child
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: psychiatrist who was since struck off the medical register by
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: the general medical council for gross professional misconduct, because he
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: had a pattern of falsely diagnosing many, many children and toddlers,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: not just myself over a long period of time. So
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: he had been struck off by the GMC 16 years
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: before my daughter's birth. And this is all a public record.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: If we were just sort of piecing parts of this together,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: the implication would be that the medical team around you
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: didn't know this initially, but then they discovered that in
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: your medical records it had got reference to this diagnosis
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: by this psychiatrist.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So they didn't know about this throughout
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: my pregnancy and they only discovered the false diagnosis four
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: days after my daughter's birth by, um, through the Paris
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: database at the hospital. But nobody asked me about this.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: If anybody had asked me about it, I'd easily have
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: been able to tell them this is a false diagnosis.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: This psychiatrist was struck off 16 years ago. This is
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: a public record. Go and look it up. I would
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: also have been able to offer to do a psychological evaluation, um,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: As it happened, I didn't get to do a psychological
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: evaluation until eight weeks after my daughter was taken, at
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: which point the decision had already been made, the care
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: order had already been put in place, and nobody wanted
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: to backtrack or be held accountable.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Right. So what was your partner doing during this time then?
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So the last little bit you said was that he'd
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: gone back to work. So the baby's born, he has
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: to go back to work.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: So I only saw him on two occasions between the
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: time he had to go back to work after his
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: paternity leave ended when she was two weeks old up
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: until she was taken. I only saw him on two
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: occasions because he was away working. And at the point
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: where there was the first family court hearing that I
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: was only given 40 minutes notice of, he was threatened
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: by a social worker that if he didn't immediately leave me,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: that my daughter would be adopted. So he was coerced
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: into ending our relationship and breaking up our family. Right.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Do you think that the impact of what they said
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: on him was... Was that strong enough to simply break
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: the bond with you?
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, he was absolutely terrified.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Right. And how do you know what they said to him?
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: He's told me.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: He's told me.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Okay. So your daughter's taken away from you. And what
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: does the court order actually say in terms of contact?
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I get no contact at all. I haven't seen my
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: daughter for four years, over four years now.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: And did the court say why that was?
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: No. Initially, in the original care order, it says that
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: I was concealing a mental illness and therefore was a
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: risk to my daughter. Obviously, they've known for a very
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: long time now that that's not the case, but they
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: wanted to cover that up and come up with different reasons.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Subsequent to that, they then used the fact that I
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: was exclusively breastfeeding and tried to assert that my daughter
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: wasn't putting on enough weight because I was breastfeeding and
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't. since then had got evidence from an IBCLC
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: lactation consultant to say that I had exclusively breastfed my
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: daughter completely appropriately in line with their guidelines and that
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: there was nothing that I had done that was that
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: could that was any reason to remove my daughter from
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: my care that evidence was ignored the court wouldn't look
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: at it and it's been ignored ever since for the
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: last seven years so that was used for a while
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: now obviously my daughter is seven so they can't really
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: use that as a reason anymore because she's not breastfed anymore.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Nobody's been able to give me a reason of why
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: the care order still exists. At one of my other
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: family court applications, it was asked in court, what risk
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: am I to my daughter and there was a four
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: minute silence the social worker couldn't come up with a
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: reason and it was like tumbleweeds in the court no
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: there was no answer she couldn't come up with a
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: reason um so nothing changed nothing changed nothing changed because
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: obviously nobody from the outside can intervene it's a secret court.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Currency you had those seven roughly seven hearings did did
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: you did you try and change your legal team or
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: did you did you change legal teams.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yes i did so when i was when i when
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: i challenged the original solicitor on why she was not
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: fighting for me why she was not submitting my evidence
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: why she was not responding to this the social work
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: reports and things like that by by certain deadlines and
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: letting things go um And I realised that she was
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: simply taking on masses of legal aid cases and getting
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: paid for them and not actually doing any work. And
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I realised that. And at that point, she abandoned me,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: left me unrepresented. So there were, this was two weeks
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: before the final hearing. So it was an absolute crucial time.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: You know, I really needed, I really needed proper legal support.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I did manage to get another solicitor, but they told
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: me in no uncertain terms that they did not have
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: the time to go through the entire case and that
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: this was not going to end well. I asked for
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: an adjournment for the judge to bring the new solicitor
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: up to speed and the judge refused. So it was
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: all pushed through last minute. None of my evidence got submitted.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Right. And this all stayed under the jurisdiction of Cardiff
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Family Court?
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, the Family Court judge has actually reserved the case
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: to repeatedly come back to her. And I've tried... I've
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: tried my absolute hardest to get it heard by somebody
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: else and she will not allow it to happen.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Well, that is actually a very common thing. I've heard
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: of this on many occasions where people feel that they're
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: trapped under the jurisdiction of one judge. The judge reserves
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: the case to themselves and then you're constantly faced with
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: the same judge.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: And perhaps I'll add in there for the audience, I
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: know many of the people that watch the UK column,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: when we talk about these family cases, we constantly say,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: if you're in the family court, there's a judge, there
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: is no jury, there's usually no press team. So you
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: are simply in a room with a judge and that
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: judge makes all the decisions. And this, of course, is
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: why many of the mothers and dads who've experienced the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: family court system say effectively it's a star chamber, it's
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: a closed court, which it is. Yes. Carrie, so if
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: we just go on from here, so once that terrible
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: decision is made and you're not allowed to see your daughter,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: what do you do then? Because I know you didn't
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: stop fighting.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: No, I haven't stopped. The last seven years have been
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: consumed with this. I'm fighting to be reunited with my daughter.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: So I initially made an application for contact because I
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: really wanted to still be seeing my daughter. She's still
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: such a tiny baby. I still wanted to be seeing
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: her while I was fighting for everything to be overturned.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: So I made an application for contact and The problem
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I've repeatedly encountered is once a decision has been made
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: in family court, so once this care order was put
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: on my daughter when I had no legal help and
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: I refused that adjournment to get legal help, once that
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: decision has been made, every single hearing that I went
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: into after that happened on the basis that what was
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: written in that initial judgment is true and factual, which
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: it isn't. I have a whole heap of evidence now
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: to show that it is entirely demonstrably false, but nobody
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: will look at that evidence.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yes. Well, that is a key point that very often
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: once a decision is made, it's like they don't want
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to go back on it because to go back on
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: their original decision, I can imagine there's worry in their
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: minds about liability because it's effectively an admission of failure
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: or guilt.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: And so they become entrenched. But that, of course, doesn't
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: make it any more palatable with you or other mums
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: and dads. But many people talk about this.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like banging your head against a brick wall.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: You can keep saying that it's not true and you
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: can prove that it's not true. Nobody cares.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I'll reinforce this a little bit because I'll say locally
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: many years ago there was a couple. They had a
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: baby in one of the local hospitals. And the hospital
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: said to the parents fairly early on, they thought there was, well,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: there was a problem with the baby, but the hospital
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: said they thought it was cancer. And the mother said,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I understood that something was wrong with my baby, but
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: everything said to me, it's not cancer. This is crazy
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: because we're talking about a two, three day old baby.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: And to cut a long story very, very short, it
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: subsequently emerged that the mother was right. The problem with
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: the baby was actually something that was fairly common and
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: very easily fixed. But the mother had refused cancer treatment
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: for the baby and that brought social services into the mix.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: So when the diagnosis from the hospital came that it's
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: a minor problem and easily corrected... the mother was never
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: reunited with that baby and so that baby's taken away
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: from her and then on the basis of that baby
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: being taken away the social services then went on to
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: take three more babies from her she had twins on
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: the next occasion and then she tried to have a
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: child outside the system so She had never done anything
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: to the child and the father had never done anything
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: to the child. She'd been correct in her instincts, okay?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: She's not a medical professional. But the local authority continued
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: to take children effectively on the lie that the mother
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: had been at fault in the birth of the first baby.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Yes. I've met many people that have been subjected to
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: the same thing over and over. Every child after that
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: gets taken, not for any reason.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: And then we'll add for our audience and then it
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: can get to the stage where if a child is
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: taken away and is fostered or brought up in a
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: care home, that when they're adult and become pregnant, their
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: child is taken away on the basis that they were
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: a child who was fostered or brought up in a
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: care home. So the child is actually... penalized when they
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: come into.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Adulthood absolutely i think i did a freedom of information
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: request at one point and something that i discovered is
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: that um the vast majority i can't remember the exact
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: figures or statistics but the vast majority of um people
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: who have children taken away from them by social services
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: are either care leavers or victims of domestic violence they're
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: overwhelmingly the people that get children taken the most So
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: not actually people who have ever harmed their children or
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: have any intention to harm their children. Victims, they're victims.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Well, vulnerable people, vulnerable mums, sometimes dads, but yeah, vulnerable people. Keris,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: you fight for contact with your child. What do you
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: actually do to... So I.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Have made multiple... court applications outside of the family court
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: I thought because of the the family court system is
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: closed and secret and nobody can penetrate that I um
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: I have made many other court applications outside of the
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: family court and one of those was as a result
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: of um two and a half years after my daughter
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: was taken I applied to become a child chaperone um
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: and a child chaperone basically chaperoned children in entertainment settings,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: so like TV or theatre, pantomime, that sort of thing.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Is this an individual child or a group of children?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: It can be either. It can be one child actor
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: or it can be a group of children. There's rules
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: on how many children of certain ages you can have
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: under your care at one time.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So, because I'm learning here... When would a child chaperone
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: be used and who would use them? Who would pay
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: for that chaperone?
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: So the entertainment agencies, any child in an entertainment setting
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: has to be chaperoned by law. So, yeah, so I
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: applied to become a child chaperone. I'd been working as
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: a TV extra myself previous to that. So many of
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: my colleagues also chaperoned children on set. So part of
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: the application to be a child chaperone is that you
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: have to be assessed and approved by your local authority,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: and it has to be the local authority area that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you live. So obviously, given the fact... that the Vale
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: of Clermont Council had presented false evidence to the family
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: court to steal my daughter I thought I had absolutely
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: no hope of being a child chaperone but I knew
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: that I hadn't done anything wrong and I could prove
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: that I hadn't done anything wrong even though I hadn't
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: been given the opportunity to so I thought I'm going
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: to try. So I made the application to my local
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: authority and I was assessed under standard UK procedures for
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: it to be a child chaperone. And it involved a
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: few things. It involved things like references. I had to
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: attend a course run by my local authority for child chaperones.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I had to have a panel interview with members of
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: the Bailiff Morgan Council. who assessed me, and so they
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: assessed me positively and approved me and issued me with
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: a child chaperone licence.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: So let's just reinforce the point. So you have your
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: child taken away from you on the basis that you
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: are not safe to look after that child as a
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: result of a false, erroneous psychiatric diagnosis when you were
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: a child. And then when you apply... subsequent to that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: to be a child chaperone the local authority approves you
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: yes and so how long did you work as a
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: child chaperone so.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I worked as a child chaperone for six months um
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: very successfully there were no complaints or incidents or anything
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: wrong i really enjoyed it i got on extremely well
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: with the children that were under my care um and
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: i loved it and then very suddenly um less than
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: 24 hours after one booking that i had um I
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: received an email from the Vale of Glamorgan Council to
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: say that my child chaperone license had been revoked. So
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I emailed them back to ask for a reason. Obviously
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I knew the reason would be that they'd realized the
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: contradiction that they'd kidnapped my own child, but yet I'd
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: said that I was safe to look after anybody else's child.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: But I wanted them to explain that in writing. So
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I asked for the reasons they would not reply. Over
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: that month, I sent a total of seven emails asking
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: them to explain why they'd revoked my chaperone licence and
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: they had no response. So at that point, I contacted
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: my local magistrate's court and I put in an appeal
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: against the revocation of my chaperone licence. And I thought
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: this might be an opportunity for me to finally.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Clear your name, as it were, yeah.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to present the evidence that the family court had
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: refused to allow me to present, that none of this
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: was true. And unfortunately... the magistrate's court can apparently not
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: go behind what a family court judge has said. So
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: even though I had all of this evidence to show
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: that nothing in the family court judgment was true, the
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: judge in the magistrate's court couldn't look at it. And
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: as a result of that, a judgment was made against me.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: So the Vale of Glamorgan Council was able to use
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the false family court judgment against me as if it
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: was fact, but I wasn't allowed to present any evidence
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: against it. So they won by default.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: And so my chaperone license is still revoked and and
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: i now have to pay the local authority's legal costs
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: you just couldn't make.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: It up right was was this the start of you
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: having to pay costs to the local authority yes that
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: was fighting this particular case yes can we ask how
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: much those costs were.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Uh there's the chaperone license costs were 7 500 pounds
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: but there have been other costs of the local authorities
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: that have been put on me since then for other
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: court applications that I've made.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Right, OK, so that was the child chaperone. So what
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: other cases did you take trying to break through the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: judgment that the family court had made in taking your daughter?
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: What other challenges did you make through the courts that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: then resulted in you being given costs?
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: So I... to do a judicial review which is um
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: where a court looks at whether a decision that's been
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: made is correct or not um and this is where
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: i realized that no judge is ever going to allow
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: me to show them evidence because if they did it
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: would open the door for hundreds of thousands of other
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: bogus family court decisions to be overturned and it would
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: be scandal.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so tell us what happened then when you challenged him.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: So my application was immediately shut down. The judge would
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: not look at evidence. The judge determined that my case
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: was totally without merit, even though he had no idea
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: there was any merit because he refused to look at
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: any evidence.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Right, and just remind me again what court that was
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: you'd taken the case to.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: That was the administrative court. So in Cardiff, it is
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: actually the same building as the family court, but it's
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: a different floor. And it's effectively a different court.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Would that be what we call a county court here
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: in England?
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a civil court, yeah.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: So a straight civil court. And you were just in
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: front of a judge in that court?
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. There's no jury. I think the only way you
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: can get a jury is if you're in Crown Court
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: and you have to commit a crime.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Which I have considered to try and get in front
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: of a jury.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Right, so you try and challenge it and the judge...
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: doesn't take any of your evidence or did he.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Take no refused to look at any evidence dismissed it
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: without looking at any evidence dismissed it as totally without
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: merit yeah even though he hadn't looked and um and
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: then ordered me to pay the local authorities legal costs
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: even though i was unrepresented and because i couldn't afford
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: to pay for my own legal.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Representation what were the costs out of that case i can't.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Remember the exact figure um i can't remember the exact
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: figure that just roughly It's a couple of thousand.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: I can't remember.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: But altogether now, all of the costs that have been
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: put on me amount to 32 grand, as far as
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I'm aware. There were also legal costs that were put
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: on me from the local authority where the local authority
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: had actually made the court application. So, for example, because
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: I had made these repeated court applications, they put an
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: application in to put an extended civil restraint order on
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: me to prevent me from making any court applications in
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: any court.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Right. I think other people might describe this, Carys, as
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: making you vexatious. Yes. And attempting to restrict your ability
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: to put further challenges in through the courts. Yeah, that's right.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: So how many challenges had you put in when they
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: tried to restrict you like this?
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe five or six, something like that. It's been such
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: a long time. I can't remember exactly, but I think
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: five or six applications, which then obviously each application has
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: been several hearings. Yeah, about five or six. But the
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: point is that none of those hearings has ever given
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: me an opportunity to submit evidence, not once. And I
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have had to make repeated court applications if on
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: one occasion, just one occasion, a judge had agreed to
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: look at evidence. That's all I was asking for. And
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I've been prevented. from showing evidence.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Were the cases shut down before you, sorry, were the
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: cases shut down and you didn't even get an opportunity
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: to sit in front of the judge? Or did you
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: manage to get into a court?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I got in, some of them were dismissed on paper
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: without me ever seeing a judge. And every appeal I've
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: made has been dismissed on paper without any evidence, without
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: me ever seeing the judge. But there were occasions like
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: the judicial review and with the chaperone licence appeal where
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I was in front of a judge, but it was
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: a permission stage. So every permission stage, it's been shut down.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Right, okay. And, well, a little while ago when we
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: were speaking and texting, you were very worried one morning
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: because you, or was it the next day you were
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: going into court and you thought there was a possibility
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: that they were going to commit you to prison?
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Why were you so anxious then?
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: So I'd been sent in a, I don't know what
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: you call it, a notice of a hearing, which I'd
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: had to attend, which was called, it was titled a
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: committal to prison hearing. Right.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: And who'd initiated that?
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: The Vailagham Morgan Council.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Because of the fact that I have not yet paid
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: any of their court costs that I have been court
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: ordered to pay. I haven't paid any of them. So
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: they applied for a committal to prison hearing. So there
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: was a real risk that I could have gone to prison.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: And I wasn't put in prison at that hearing, but
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: the judge ordered me to pay their costs. even though
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: i'm on a low income and they've taken my career.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Was that the first case where you you made a
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: an offer to pay something.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Was that the first one yes right that's right um
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: and as much as i begrudge paying them a penny
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: because they've destroyed my life and my family and my
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: career um i just didn't need anything else you know
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: on top of.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: No okay and and perhaps if we Explained a little
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: bit more to the audience that the key thing is
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: when monies are owed or owing, there's a big difference.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: between saying you won't pay and you are happy to pay,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: but you can only pay a certain sum. You can
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: only afford to pay a certain sum. And I believe
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: that that was your approach. You offered to pay them
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: a very small sum, nominal sum.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: They weren't happy with that, so the judge put that
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: up at that hearing. I put in a statement to
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: make it clear that I did not accept the costs
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: and the reasons why I did not accept the costs
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: because they kidnapped my child with false evidence and that
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I'd been prevented from ever submitting any of my own
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: evidence and that my daughter has been deprived of a
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: mother unnecessarily for seven years. So the court was fully
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: aware of that but still ordered me.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: To pay the costs. But they didn't put you in prison?
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: They didn't, but they're still... risk that that will happen again.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Because you went to another court case there was another
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: one following that one.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: If I remember correctly. Yes that's right and there will
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: be others as well because there's so many different strands
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: of costs that they have ordered me to pay as
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: a result of me trying to fight them and trying
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: to get this evidence presented in a court finally there's
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: so many strands of costs that eventually I can see
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: me going to prison.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Are you saying that the Vale of Glamorgan Council has
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: not what's the term, consolidated the costs. So even though
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: the costs have accrued through different court actions involving the
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Vale of Glamorgan, they haven't consolidated it in one bill.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Not currently, no.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Right. So you would have to say that that is.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: That's such a wasteful approach. I'm just being a little
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: bit pernickety here, but the council's owed money. It can't
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: even get its act together to consolidate that into one sum.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, they're completely incompetent.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: In order to take that through the council.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Shambles. And if you think of the hundreds of thousands
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: of pounds they've unnecessarily spent on keeping my daughter under
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: a tiny unnecessary care order for her entire life so far,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: just how they've squandered public money in that way. And
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: now they expect me to effectively pay for their own
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: campaign of abuse and torture against me. It's just, it's laughable.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: It would be funny if it wasn't so awful.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: You've said to me, Carys, that basically the sum that
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: they're trying to get from you effectively means it's not
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: worth you trying to get a job at all. It's not, no.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: They were just doing an attachment of earnings and I
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to live, so... Yeah, so I basically
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: have to keep myself in poverty. Money would just be
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: taken from me otherwise.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Are you sitting here at the moment with another court
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: order over your head? How did the final hearing go?
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: That was a week ago, I think.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: So the extended civil restraint order was, the judge put
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: it on me, so I now cannot make court applications
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: without going through an additional permission step. And I've never
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: heard this happen to anyone else before. I've already under
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: a section 91 14 barring order in the family court.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: And now they put this extended civil restraint order on
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: me as well. So if I was to make any
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: court application now, I would effectively have to go through
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: two permission steps. and get through those before I could
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: even make the application.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Before you could even attempt to get at them, as
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: it were.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: They're that desperate to cover up what they've done that
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: they're going to the most extraordinary lengths. I think in
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: most cases they expect people to have been worn down
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: to the point where they've given up by now. I
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: know a lot of people that have been subjected to
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: what I've been subjected to, and I've spoken to many
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: in the last seven years, a lot of them have
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: not in this estate psychologically anymore that they can continue
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: to fight because it it just is so destructive um
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: and I think they hope that I would get to
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: a point where I'd be so worn down that I
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: wouldn't mentally be able to keep fighting like this and
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think they know what to do because so
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: far I have managed to keep fighting um I have
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: some really dark days but yeah I have so far
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: managed to keep fighting and my focus is being reunited
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: with my daughter.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah If we summarize this, your daughter's taken under false
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: pretenses on a false diagnosis by a man who's later
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: struck off. So you're a child, he's struck off for
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: his diagnosis. So that is a record which was incorrect
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: in your medical notes. That incorrect note is then used
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: to justify taking your daughter. And even though all of
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: that's happened you can't produce the evidence, you're not permitted
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: to produce the evidence in a family court or another
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: court in order to set out the injustice and essentially
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: be reunited with your daughter. Yes, that's right. I'm putting
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: it over in this way because I know that there
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: are many people that can listen into these interviews and
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: not surprisingly, some of them say, There's got to be
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: more to it than this. So they'll listen to you
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: speaking or another parent and they'll say, well, they wouldn't
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: do that. Well, they do. They do. And then when
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: you go through perfectly reasonable steps in order to obtain
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: justice in this wonderful country, the United Kingdom in 2026,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: you are absolutely prevented from putting your evidence forward.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: I reinforced this situation by, it's part of my own
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: experience of being at a family court with a mother.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: It was actually in South Wales, but not where you were.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And I'd supported the family over a few weeks and
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: then I was in a hearing and suddenly, to my astonishment,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: the local authority waved a piece of paper at the
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: judge and said that A few days beforehand, I, Brian Gerrish,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: had attempted to break into a contact centre in South Wales.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I was utterly stunned. It was ridiculous because of the
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: day in question. I was in Plymouth, not in this location,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: but at another UK column studio. And I had at
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: least six, seven witnesses that I was there the whole day.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: So I couldn't possibly have been 160 miles away breaking in.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: The judge didn't seem too phased when I reacted and said, well,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: this is a complete lie. And I then said to him,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: I will produce witness statements to disprove this. And subsequently,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: there was another hearing And I had six witness statements
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: all saying where I was on a particular day. No
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: possibility that I could have been at the contact centre.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: And I looked at the judge and I said, holding
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: the local authority piece of paper, that this is perjury.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: And I can still see the judge's face because he
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: sort of leaned over the bench towards me and he smirked.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: And that was what I picked up. And then he said, oh, no, Mr. Gerrish,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I rather think the local authority has made a mistake.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: And I knew as those words came out of his
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: mouth that actually he was he was playing with me,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: but he was warning off the local authority. You've made
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: a mistake. You've gone too far. But this was in
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: the early days of my learning process. when I started
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: to understand just how corrupt the family law system is
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: and in another hearing in that same case when I
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: started to push a bit in court he leaned forward
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: and he said Mr Gerrish if you dare to report
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: any of this case or what's taken place in my
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: court I will put you in prison and that is
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: the reality of the family court so I'm sharing that
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: with you and the audience, of course, because I have
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: never been through the process of a family court except
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: as a Mackenzie friend. But I've done that on a
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: number of occasions and what I've witnessed has been utterly horrific. Yes.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: There has actually been several incidences like that in my
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: own case where the local authority have put an accusation
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: that's completely absurd. Yeah. that I can easily disprove. And again,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: the judge has just said it's a mistake rather than
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: a blatant lie and perjury, which is what it really is.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: But they never get held accountable. So I think they
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: just get brave and get cocky that they can just
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: do this.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: This is one of the key issues for the parents
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: because the parent is faced with the judge, faced with
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: a local authority, usually faced with the local authority's solicitor
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: and or barrister. possibly a psychiatric professional who's there to
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: testify against you and very well in the not so
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: long ago, but it would be the CAFCAS, the Guardian
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Ad Litem. Yes, it still happens.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: They're usually ex-Local Authority social workers, the one in my
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: case was.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: So the parent is faced in a closed court with
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: no jury in trying to defend themselves against six or
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: eight people That's right. Ranged against them. And of course,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: all those professionals who are targeting the family members are
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: being paid out of, in fact, out of your.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, the public are paying for it.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: The public are paying for it. Yeah.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Most of these people have most of the so-called experts
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: that they use to testify against parents. are people that
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: do this all day long. That's all they do is
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: write reports against parents.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: For the family court.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: And they get paid a lot of money for doing it. Yeah.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it is now, but certainly for,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: we'll say one of the more involved reports, £ 5, 000, £ 5, 500
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: for writing a four-page report on somebody maybe.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, and a lot of them are copy and pasted
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: as well. And they just remove the names and add
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: the new names. And that's how they do it. And yes,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: like you said, they get paid thousands for it.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Carys, you said just now that you've come across
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: other people who've experienced this. How did that start to happen?
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: How did you go from your case to meeting other people?
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Just through going through what I've gone through, I've come
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: across other parents. I initially started looking for other parents
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: who had had their children stolen by the same local
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: authority as me.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Where did you look for them?
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Just through how did I I don't actually know how
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: I did yes so um through social media and then
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: sort of having contact with one or two people then
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: I became in contact with a lot of other people
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: and over seven years there's quite a network of people
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: now that I have come into contact with and um
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: it's I'd say it's surprising it's not surprising to me
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: anymore because nothing surprises me anymore but it's it would
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: be surprising to most people how They use the same
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: tactics in every single case over and over again. They
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: recycle the same things. They've got the same checklist that
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: they try to get people on. And it's like a
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: tick box exercise.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: And they use the same tricks.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Same tricks every time.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: One of those tricks which you mentioned early on is
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: effectively they split, they work to split.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Divide and conquer.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Divide the partnership, get husband and wife or partners involved.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: apart because then each of the individuals is more vulnerable
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: to whatever happens.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: That's right in fact the only people i've known who
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: have managed to stop this process before the end of
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: the care proceedings are uh partners that have refused to
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: turn on the other partner.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Yes yeah i i have a friend who um happily
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: in the last couple of years has been able to
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: speak to his daughter but um he had to make
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the decision as a father to give up contact with
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: his daughter because the threat was if you don't if
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: you don't your daughter will go into care and he
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: felt it was better that his daughter stayed with his
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: estranged partner but nevertheless he had i think about 12
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: years of not being in contact with her at all
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: so i absolutely from this particular friend know firsthand this
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: this business that um you know once the once the
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: child's gone you don't have the contact it's only been
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: when this particular young lady has now become adult that
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: she's been able to reach out to her parents yeah
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: to her father yeah.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: In a lot of cases as well they try to
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: bring in a child psychologist to sort of brainwash the
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: child that the a restrained parent is dangerous and um
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: i've i've learned in a lot of cases that you know,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: the child grows up and gets to adulthood and actually
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: thinks that parent is a monster because they've been brainwashed
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: for so many years by the local authority to believe that.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: And it causes so much damage.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: And that's my worry. I've been told of many cases
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: about this. But perhaps we could say in your case,
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: you know, if your partner is a loving parent of
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: your daughter, that's not such a risk. No, I hope not. Yeah.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: You meet other people who've gone through the process and
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: you say there's a lot of them. Have you been
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: able to meet them in person?
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, several. There's quite a lot of us in South Wales.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: I think I read the statistics that three times as
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: many children get removed in Wales than in any other
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: area of the UK, three times over, despite the tiny
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: comparative population. So although it's awful all over the UK...
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: wales seems to be.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Particularly bad yes i i hadn't heard that that figure
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: i i had heard people say i have heard that
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: people say that it's it's bad the situation is bad
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: but again this key point is that many years ago
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: you could say that all the children were taken from
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: tended to be taken from vulnerable families but one of
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: the things that people report to me who are very
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: close to what's happening is that as time's gone on
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: it's like they've got more confidence and they can they
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: can go for professional people yes people that you think
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: no they wouldn't go near that family because mum or
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: dad is a policeman but actually they do and then
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: you start to feel that there's actually something more powerful
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: under the surface than it just being the local council.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: The judges aren't holding them accountable they're letting them get
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: away with it and they know they know it's wrong
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: i've looked in the eyes of judges and they i
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: know they know i know they know otherwise what would
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: be the harm in looking at my evidence but they
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: won't do it.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah they won't do it a question which i always
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: ask and i think there's a good reason for asking
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: it but i know with the audience there's quite a
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: lot of people that sort of sigh so the question
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: is what what about a local mp did you try
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: your local mp or local counsellors.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Many times yes many many times and i've even tried
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: the ones oh it was the yeah even the ones
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: in my daughter's area um the result is initially they
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: appear concerned and they want to help and they want
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: to see all of your evidence and everything so that's
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: happened multiple times over now i've gone to a lot
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: of effort to um make sure that my evidence is
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: all in order and showing them everything. And at that point,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: they tend to just go silent and you don't hear
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: from them. And then you chase them and chase them
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: and chase them and chase them. And most recently with
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: my local MP in my own area, I had to
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: chase for a year and a half before I finally
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: then got a reply back to say, sorry, we can't
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: help you anymore.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: So who was that MP?
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: The MP is Kanishka Narayan, I believe. And this was
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: a representative of Kanishka Narayan's party. who had come to
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: my house, who had spoken to me, had seemed very
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: concerned about the situation, had then asked for all the evidence,
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: which I'd then given her. And the last I heard
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: from her at that point was that she was going
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: to a case conference about my case that week and
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: that very shortly somebody would be assigned to my case.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: So I'd be hearing from somebody shortly for help. And
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: then a year and a half went past and I
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: had no contact and I was chasing and chasing and
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: chasing and heard nothing. And then eventually got a reply
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: back saying, sorry, we can't help you anymore. So I
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: just think they're being told, don't touch this.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: Being told, don't touch it. That's one way of saying it.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Or they're warned off is another way of saying it.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: They're warned off these cases. And then that implies or
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: suggests that there's a sort of power held over the
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: local MPs. You don't want to get your nose too
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: close to this because... I.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely think that's what's happening because the exact same thing
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: happened when I contacted the MP from my daughter's local
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: area to say, you know, obviously I'm not a constituent
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: of hers, but my daughter is and I have parental
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: responsibility for my daughter and therefore I'm asking for her
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: help on behalf of my daughter. It's exactly the same
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: thing happened. She was very nice. She wanted to, she
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: was very nice. She, again, wanted to help. She said
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: she didn't want to step on the toes of my
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: local MP, but she would help. help you know um
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: together she was she was very willing to help and
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: then a year down the line um all of a
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: sudden it's can't help you anymore no explanation she wouldn't
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: give any explanation why she couldn't help anymore just went
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: cold yeah.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: And did you hear this same sort of story about
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: mps from other mums.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: That you've spoken to it's been the same for everybody
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: i've spoken.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: To same pattern same pattern yeah and what about local
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: councillors Same.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Again, same again, local councillors. And also we, because Wales
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: is devolved, so we've got the Senedd as well, not
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: just Parliament. So I've tried with all of those people
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: as well involved in the Senedd in Wales. And again,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: it's the same thing over again, same pattern.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. And I've heard this story many, many times.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: And to be fair, some of the councillors clearly did
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: attempt to do something but even in their own authority
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: an elected councillor is simply told by an officer of
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: the council that they have no business asking questions that's
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: it in children's services and children's services department is not
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: obliged to answer any questions for the elected member that's
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: it so they're shut down as shut down as well.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: Yes i fully believe that the representative that came to
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: my house was extremely concerned she appeared concerned she was
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: very sympathetic she was very nice and i honestly believe
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: she wanted to help and has been prevented from helping.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah so where's this left you now.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: It's left me with nowhere to turn really. I've been
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: threatened with prison many times for speaking about my case
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: or talking about my case or identifying any part of
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: my case but I've got to the point where I
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: feel like I've been in a prison for seven years
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: anyway and not committed any crime ever so there's not
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: really much more I can be threatened with anymore. I
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: want people to know that this is happening because the
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: media won't report on it. The mainstream media you will
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: not hear about this at all.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Have you approached mainstream media.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: I have yes who did you speak to i've spoken
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: to two different bbc journalists um and also somebody from
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: wales online some names who can you gosh i can't
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: remember the names i'll be able to give you the
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: names but i can't remember them off the top of
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: my head it was a while.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Ago right and what did they do um did they
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: come and see.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: You uh initially again quite similar with the MPs seem
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: concerned but then won't report on anything that the court
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: hasn't ordered or the court hasn't said is a fact
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: so obviously that's the whole point I want a journalist
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: is because the court is not looking at evidence and
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: the court is just rubber stamping things that are completely
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: untrue and that there's no evidence for and I want
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: I want somebody in the media to speak about that
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: but they're not that they will not look at any
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: evidence that goes against what a court order.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Says I'll reinforce that for you. I had a conversation
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: some time ago with the Telegraph newspaper and they were
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: interested in the family court case. But the person said
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: to me, the trouble is the mother is relying on
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: family court evidence for her defence. So she's saying to
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: our reporter that to prove what I'm saying, I've got
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: to show you family court documents and we the newspaper
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: are not allowed to look at these documents and i
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: said well is there a way of summarizing what the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: family court documents are saying so that you can understand
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: what the mother's saying to which the man said to
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: me well that's all very well but then when we
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: go a step further my legal team and my editorial
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: board are going to be saying, well.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: They'll put a stop to it.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: We're going to be in danger of breaching the family
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: court secrecy rules.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: So I said to the journalist, who was a very
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: experienced person, surely that's your story, isn't it? That secret
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: courts are withholding evidence which is needed for people to
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: prove that they're innocent.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: And it went quiet... And we discussed some other subjects
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: and I offered to give some specific help in that case.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: And then what happened? Nothing. No more contact. No thanks
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: for the help. No recognition that we've got a secretive
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: court system which is stealing children. It just went completely silent.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: So I say that back to you, Chris, so that
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: you can understand that I do understand a lot of
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really grateful that you talk about this.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: What would you.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: You've come all the way down here to Plymouth to
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: talk this through and I'm really delighted you have because
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: I know that you've got a big bag full of
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: court documents and as you've said, you packaged evidence to
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: give to MPs in order to prove what your case is.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: But for me, the reality is that there's so many
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: mothers and some fathers coming forward, talking about what's happened
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: to them through the family courts. And as you said
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, they go through a checkbox. This happened,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: that happened, something else happened. They said this, they accused
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: me of that. So we have hundreds, thousands of parents
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: all over the country, worse in some areas than others,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: but it's in wales it's in england scotland northern ireland
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: all telling the same story of lies um corruption um
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: perjury in court in order that a child's taken away
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: from a parent it's it's happening you are the evidence
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: and what you say is the evidence so well done
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: for coming here and talking through what would you like
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: people to take away from what you've what you've told
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: me about what's happened to you?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: I'd just like people to know that this is happening
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: and that I think people think if they don't hear
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: about something on the news or they don't read it
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: in a newspaper that it can't possibly be happening. People
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: generally have the opinion that if a court has said something,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: then evidence must have been looked at and it must
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: have been examined in detail for that to be the truth.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: And that just isn't the case. It just isn't the case.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: So it's not that this is complicated. You're case the
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: story that you've told me is not complicated in any
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: sense because it's not as though there was a protracted
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: period of something had happened you'd been drunk on a
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: couple occasions or you'd had previously suffered from depression some
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: tangible thing that could say well okay there was some
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: need from the local authority in your case it's absolutely
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: black and white absolutely nothing yeah Yeah. I think the
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: key to getting the lid off this is the numbers
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: of parents. I have been lucky enough to be able
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: to talk to a lot of parents over a lot
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: of years. But the issue that keeps coming up is
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: the trauma around the whole thing. and the fact that,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: if I just, I'll stick with it, the dads can
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: be different in a way, but for the mums, for
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of them, the trauma is so intense that
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: after a particular period of fighting, maybe years of fighting,
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: the mums haven't really got it together in order to
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: work with other people. The emotions go up and down
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: so they can be with a group of mums and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: then they fall out or they argue. And this means
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: that they can't build a sort of good cohesive base
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: to tackle what's actually happening.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, and also even putting their evidence together. I mean,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: it's extremely triggering going through all of those lies and
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: being able to put everything in an order that you'd
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: be able to present to somebody else so that they'd
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: understand what has happened. And I mean, I've had to
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: find resilience that I would never have thought possible a
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: few years ago. to be able to do that in
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: my own case. So obviously there are a lot of
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: people that are just unable to do that, which is
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: completely understandable. If you think that you've had part of
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: you ripped away, there's no words for it.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's something you can't escape from because as
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: one mum said, you think about your daughter every minute
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: of every day.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Final message to other mums out there who are having
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: problems that you're having, what would you say to.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: Encourage them I would say if you're at the beginning
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: of this process and a social worker asks you to
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: sign something, do not sign it, do not sign it.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: If you have evidence against what they're saying, put it
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: all together, get support, get support, family support, support from
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: a partner, support from anybody. It makes it a lot
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: more difficult for local authorities to take a child from
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: somebody who's got a lot of unwavering support around them
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: and people who will not turn on them. That's really important. Gosh,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: there's so many things to think of.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: I'll add one for you. The one I'll add is,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: and I've always believed this, it's really important that you
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: look after yourself. Because if you don't look after yourself,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: you're not in a condition to fight. So no matter
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: how hard it is, you have to take the opportunity
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: to get out.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: And, Absolutely, that's really important.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Exercise, fresh air, try and get your mind off it.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I would have been able,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: in a position to do this interview, say, five years ago,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: because I was a complete mess as well. It just
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: completely ruined you. You have to find some kind of
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: strength from somewhere.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, to do it. But you did find that strength.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: That's really fantastic. Carissa, I'm going to say that's probably
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: a natural conclusion, so I'm going to say thank you
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: very much for coming down and talking to me my
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: last words to the camera are that I believe there
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: is a way of bringing this thing to the light
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: to make the wider public understand just what's happening it
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: comes down to numbers And the key is to be
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: able to get as many mums to come out of
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: the woodwork as possible. Many mums who've got it together,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: they can talk about their cases in a measured way.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: Emotion's never going to disappear, but we need the numbers
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: to make the difference because the testimony that each of
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: the mums gives is the evidence and all the stuff
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: that's in the, thousands of pages for some of them
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: in the court documents this is evidence in a sense
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: but when a bank gets robbed when you have two
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: people say well I saw the car stop and I
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: saw the men get out and this is what happened
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: that is their verbal testimony is the ultimate testimony it's
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: not actually what they wrote down in a police statement
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: so my approach to this is We need more mums
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: to come forward and to tell their stories because that
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: becomes the body of evidence against the state.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: And to not be frightened of the threats that are
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: put on you because that's what keeps you locked in
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: that prison is the threats.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: The fear.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: The fear. I understand some people do have things to lose,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: like if you're still having contact with your child, they'll
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: use that as a reason to not speak out because
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: they'll take away the contact. Yeah. so it is very
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: difficult but to just like have the courage that you
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: haven't done anything wrong and to just speak out because
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: eventually you know if you're telling you're telling the truth
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: so there's nothing you know even if you're threatened with
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: prison you still are telling the truth and at some
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: point you're going to be able to prove that yeah
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: so yeah i think it's really important for people to
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: not be coerced by fear into not speaking.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: Out brilliant caris thank you very much Thank you
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: So much for having me and thank you for talking
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: about this.