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Gilmore To Read: Sarah Dessen Has A Change of Plans For Us · Gilmore To Say: A Gilmore Girls Podcast

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: 5, 6, 7, 8, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
• 0:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is coming true is that today I get to share one of my favorite authors ever at my life with all of you and that is Sarah Dessen.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Either that name strikes a chord with you as a young reader of teen romance and gives you the same feeling as listening to fearless in 2008 or you might have missed the Sarah Dessen craze, the Sarah Dessen train but I'm gonna get you on it today.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: To give some like context of like who she was and the 2000s for teen romance readers,
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of feels like what Emily Henry is to romance readers.
• 0:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you read romance as a teen, you were probably reading Sarah Dussin and she raised you, Billy's view, Emily Henry reader.
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you can't already tell, I fan girls so hard in this episode.
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just love her so much and they say don't meet your idols, don't meet your icons, but Sarah Dussin is the sweetest person.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: An absolute best conversation partner I could have had.
• 1:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know she's going on tour for her new book Change of Plans Which came out yesterday and if you can go see her I absolutely recommend doing so She's even better than I could have imagined so go see for yourself if you can snack a tour ticket Her books were so formative for me and the way that Gilmore Girls is formative for me and her new book called Change of Plans is her first release since 2019
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And although May is a where you read a follow book club on, we are reading Crying in each part by Mrs.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Shell Zoner.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't miss the opportunity to read a new Sarah Desin while I guess reread because I've already read it with all of you.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is a teen romance following thinly, a recent high school grad as she unexpectedly finds herself in a new to her small town with new friends, a new job, and new problems.
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: All juxtaposed against a mother-daughter relationship that is more Emily Lorelei than it is Lorelei Rory.
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: A relationship full of unanswered questions, some resentment and some secrets that come to light.
• 2:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just like every other Sarah does a novel before it, it reminds you that you're coming of age at every age.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: and as Sarah says in this episode, we're always going to be teenagers in some way.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I will say they're like the romance here, it does feel a little bit like Rory leaving Dean and finding Jess just a little bit in terms of like what it does for Finnly's character and what meeting Jess did for Rory.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I will leave you with that.
• 2:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're really going to like this one.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: She does a cast of characters so well.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many people in this book, but it never feels overwhelming, very much feels like stars hollow, where you are following one character so clearly, but each person that they meet
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: is invested in them, and very much to the narrative itself.
• 3:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the reasons I feel like it's a really good comp for Gilmore Girls is because of the timeless nature of it, contrary to Gilmore Girls, it doesn't include a lot of references.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of feels like it could take place almost at any time, and this is not necessarily spoiler, but there is a moment where thinly's found is no longer able to be used.
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So,
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: We do kind of end up in that small town star's hollow sort of vibe where no one is connected by phones in the same way, which I really liked about it and really pulled us back into that 2000s teen romance that we love so much about Sarah Dessons or that you will learn to love.
• 3:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited if you have not read one of her books to dive in the change of plans, but to dive into some of her other books as well.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a bit about Sarah Dessons, Sarah Desson is the number one New York Times best-selling author of over a dozen novels for teens, including The Truth About Forever, Just Listen, and This Lullaby.
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Her work has been published in over 30 countries and sold millions of copies worldwide.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: She is the recipient of the 2017 Margaret A. Edwards Award from the American Library Association for Outstanding Contribution to Young Adult Literature.
• 4:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And mentioned there, of course, are two of my favorite of her books.
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: The truth about forever in Just Listen.
• 4:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that if you love Beatry by Emily Henry, you're going to love the truth about forever by Sarah Dyson.
• 4:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I definitely recommend diving into Change of Plan diving into the truth about forever.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just Listen, what I love the most about her books is that some of the topics that she's dealing with are rather intense from book to book, some of them are a lot lighter.
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the way that she deals with them is that everything is a teenager feel so intense.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels so big, regardless of whether it is big or not.
• 4:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: She really approaches that with such a deaf hand and such an understanding of that phase of adolescents.
• 4:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And whether or not you are a YA reader, I know that a lot of adults sometimes feel like that is not for them, but that is absolutely not true.
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And rereading her books as an adult has made them feel more impact.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like I talk about in this episode, like I'm more ready to receive some of the lessons that these books are trying to convey than I ever did when I was a teenager.
• 4:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Highly highly recommend.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, I try very hard not to cry though.
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I did not succeed fully, so I was just so excited, but I do overwhelm Sarah.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: not only with my own love of her books, which I've already feel like I've overwhelmed you with, but also with the love of all of the women who submitted their affection and excitement for her being on this episode.
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll hear it in segment called Please Tell Sara this, which we start with.
• 5:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: We also talk about her earliest writing where stories that she was writing about her friends and sharing with them.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: What it's like to write YA with a teenage daughter who is about to graduate from high school much like finley in change of plans How she feels about Gilmour calls as someone who is a lower lie, but writes about characters like Rory, and of course we dive into change of plans Plus, I ask her a lot of your questions that you submitted and my most burning question, which was will she write romance novels for adults?
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll have to listen to find out about her change of plans.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I truly want to cry and cannot believe I am saying this, but without further ado, here is Sarah Dessen.
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: When I booked this conversation with you, it was last year for April 15th, I was like, that's gonna be tax day.
• 6:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the worst day to be an adult.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: But getting to talk to you feels like I get to like, relive all of the best parts of my teenage years.
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it felt like the absolute perfect day for us.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not tax day for everyone listening to this.
• 6:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is the day after your book is released.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you feel coming back to release a book when the last time was 2019?
• 6:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I've been nervous to be honest.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, on the one hand, I'm really excited.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't take this break on purpose, really, which sort of ties in the book, you know, like you never really know what's going to happen.
• 6:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my last book came out in 2019 and then there was a pandemic and then the market shifted a lot and then I was between publishers.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's sort of just all kind of, you know, came together for me to be taking this pause, but I'm so excited.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm more appreciative because it kind of feels like a bonus round.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think when you've been away for something,
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for seven years, you really miss it and it was a pretty, I, I mean, I never stopped writing.
• 6:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was always writing, but it was a lot of the best part of doing this is being able to go out and talk to people about books and meet the fans and take pictures with them and, you know, sign books, so that's what I've really missed.
• 7:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really excited that I'm a little nervous to because it doesn't matter how many times you do this, it's always brand new.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, speaking to your nerves, I'm going to try it.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned you before.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to try so hard not to be too much of a fan girl, but I have to say that like you are one of my like a number one dream guests to have had on this podcast because I was reading your books as I was discovering Gilmour Girls for the first time.
• 7:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like my relationship with Gilmour Girls is so like intrinsically tied to your books.
• 7:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: that when I told my mom, I was like, do you remember Sarah Desin?
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, you mean the books that I used to have to rip out of your hand that you would like talk to me?
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, she's going to be on the podcast.
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: She was like, oh my gosh, it feels like your teen self is like coming back and like this resurgence of like talking about Gilmore Girls talking about Sarah Desin.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I wouldn't be who I am today without your books.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I read books because I read your books.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I write books because I read your books.
• 7:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't think I would be in this place in my life like with the book club like any of this without having had you in my life as a teen like so many people I like put on my story like if you love stare at us and like what's a question you have for her what something you want to say to her and I have a ton of questions for you of course, but the amount of people who told me like
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Please tell Sarah this.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have a huge list of it.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this next segment that we're going into is called Please tell Sarah this because there were so many people who like I don't know if you realize the amount of people who just Or I guess the amount of women who like grew up with you who like still have like such an affection for you So I'm going to read to you all of the things that people said and I'm gonna try not to cry because as I was writing this down I did start crying so I'm gonna go through this list
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I will also try not to cry, but no problem.
• 8:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll just read them off on my one.
• 8:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: She was my queen in middle and high school tell her I love her.
• 8:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Along for the ride, made me believe in love, my queen.
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Me and my house go heart are screaming absolutely where keys as an ecclices for years.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can not wait to read her new book.
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love her, all caps.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot of all caps in this, I'll say.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Owen and Annabel forever, my teen and her built-up obsession.
• 9:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love how interconnected her books are.
• 9:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: The way she writes coming of age is a huge inspiration for me as a writer.
• 9:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have every single one of her books will always pre-order.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll always get the next one.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Her books are the reason I had a library card.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I dreamed to be able to talk to her.
• 9:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait to listen to this episode.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't have survived my teenage years without Sarah Descent Books.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Which was said by so many people that I felt like I started to write that down so many times that I was like,
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We just have to read just have to have it in one group.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's the first author I was obsessed with.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I read one and had to read them all.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: All of my allowance went toward her books.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so thankful I grew up with her reading coming of age when I was coming of age is more important than I realized at the time now that I'm in my 20s.
• 9:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm crying just thinking of listening to this episode.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: She healed so many pieces of teenage me.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: No question Sarah Desson is my favorite author of all time.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Her books are why I love reading.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, gosh.
• 9:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the one about the library card.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like to be with a go for someone getting a library card is, you know, just beyond it.
• 9:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really, I, I feel very emotional hearing that because I, I was really unhappy in high school in books were really what saved me.
• 10:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I was the thought that my books could be a comfort for someone who was really going through it during those years is it's the highest praise.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It really is.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I, I want to like dedicate this episode to like all of those serides and girlies who reached out because it was like in my DMs it was in this question box a lot of them were just people screaming like because they were just so excited to hear from you and like all of them were all a variation of the idea is that serides and helped raise me.
• 10:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that something that you hear a lot from women who like we're reading your books in the 2000s and 2000s is teens that like, do you ever get that from them now I do and it was interesting because like I said I've been sort of not out there doing a lot of publicity and I just went to a booksellers convention and February and I had all these booksellers coming through women who were like, oh, your books for my, you know, my go to and you, you were such a big part of my, my years and as a teenager and it's
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.
• 10:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like that thought when people say that that my books got them into reading or, you know, even now when I meet teenagers and they say, I don't like to read, but I like to read your books, but I'm like, you do like to read it and don't put yourself down don't say that, but it is it's such high praise and it also can make me a little emotional and shy also because I know how much that means and I know the people that I felt that way about in high school, whether it be music or, you know,
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it is sort of a soundtrack and I just feel like those years of high school and being a teenager you just absorb more of what's around you.
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So when people get emotional, like when people meet me and they're emotional, I always think this isn't about me like this is about the book.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So looking at my husband is like adding people in line at the signing line and being like, she's really not that people jailer.
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's at the grocery store, you know, she doesn't pick up her socks off the floor.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, but it is, it's that that powerful feeling that you have toward adolescents that sort of spills over into everything that you experienced at that time.
• 11:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think there's just something about books at that time in your life that kind of like sitting your soul differently and like they just kind of like have like core memories and very distinct ways like I like think about justice and all the time when I like wear brown eyeliner instead of
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: because there's just like this very small line at the beginning of that book where her friend who is not talking to her anymore, that like she doesn't wear black eyeliner anymore, she wears brown.
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember what the time being like, okay, so I'll wear brown eyeliner now.
• 12:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like that idea has stuck with me or like going through car washes or anytime I see that catering ban, I'm like, oh, do they work for wish catering?
• 12:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, from the truth about forever, just my personal favorite.
• 12:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: But is there what are books like that for you or like any sort of media that maybe from your
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I grew up, there wasn't as much like young adult fiction when I was coming up back in the dark ages.
• 12:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, I wore the lot of Judy Bloom.
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I read a lot of Louis Lowry, but you kind of had to make the jump from those younger books.
• 12:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: There wasn't a lot of middle grade and there wasn't a lot for teenagers.
• 13:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like you jump straight to reading more, you know, contemporary adult contemporary.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here in generation, you mentioned flowers in the attic, and if you were like, like, it was a YA before.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was why it was so dark.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I remember reading a lot of that.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I went through a phase where I love Jackie Collins books, and it was kind of book.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I went through a phase where I love Stephen King.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I carried it around with me at school for like a whole year.
• 13:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: This huge thick.
• 13:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is so giant.
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think going back to what you were saying before the way that you connect with books.
• 13:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I always say is, you know, you talked about the capital letters and the exclamation points and people getting really excited.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I always say that that's what's really cool about writing for teens is that they're not as jaded of readers.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They haven't had all of these reading experiences.
• 13:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I read a book right now and I get very excited about books.
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not going to probably jump up a down in scream and cry, you know, because I love to book so much.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's that level of enthusiasm.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You haven't had all of those reading experience.
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of hitting you that connection for the first time it isn't you've not become so used to that feeling.
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's one reason that it's it's such a cool group to be writing for for sure.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I just kind of read whatever I could get my hands on when I was in high school because it was a way of escaping and, you know, back then there weren't as many voices there wasn't as much diversity.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we still have a long way to go with that.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to find yourself in a book and to find yourself in a story was like this amount of solace that, you know, you just needed or I needed at that age.
• 14:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in 2017, you were honored with the Margaret A. Edwards Award and for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's an annual award that recognizes an author and a specific body of his or her work for significant in lasting contribution to young adult literature.
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when I thought about that, I'd like
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: thought about the idea of like lasting young adult literature.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like when you read those books as young adult what it really is like saying to me is like it's more of like what is going to be lasting to a young adult as they go through their life.
• 15:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you reflect on that at all that like as these books that like you are changing these people's life like what they're going to go on and do later in their adult life?
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I can't.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big thought to be having.
• 15:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, small that if you let a lot of those thoughts in, especially while you're writing, you will just completely psych yourself out in a lot of ways.
• 15:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's when I'm doing the writing, I have to just very much just focus on what's in front of me.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was at a coffee shop this morning kind of tearing my hair out working on the next book that is coming out next summer.
• 15:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But.
• 15:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a responsibility in some ways, and I feel very lucky that I've had a part in these people's lives.
• 15:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now that I've been in this business for long enough, and especially with this book coming out, I have a lot of early readers who now have teenagers of their own.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really interesting sort of turn of the page, so to speak, to see my readers growing up and going from being, you know, the girls in the books, to being the moms in the books.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, this whole
• 16:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's this really cool sort of chain reaction that comes with the longevity and I'm really grateful for that.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we were talking about your daughter before we started recording dishy read your books.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not right now.
• 16:16
  [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want us into why you're right now?
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of she's 18 and she's getting ready to graduate from high school So she's been reading a lot of like she's reading Russian literature right now.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know We're school, but she's that's she's heavy chose to do this, but I read that summer I think and keeping the moon to her out loud when she was younger, which was okay You know a very surreal experience to read your entire book, especially when that's been out for a long time.
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah I always
• 16:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: bedding and changing and you know I can't do that.
• 16:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I kind of understand why why she sort of wanted to step away the timing of my publishing career actually worked out pretty well because I sort of felt like I wanted to take a step back from publishing while she was in high school herself because the sort of like if my mom had been thinking she could write books about me and my friends I would have been so mortified you know.
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 17:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you know my last book came out right as she was graduating from elementary school and going to middle school this book is coming out just as she's
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's been like a nice break here where I really haven't been anything but mom, and I've been out promoting.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, being a working mom, working parent, I missed a lot when she was younger, because I was touring a lot.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was with a babysitter when she took her first steps.
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I wasn't there when she lost her first.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: saw it on FaceTime, but I wasn't there.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I've really been here, you know, for the past seven years.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been doing the lunch boxes and all that cost stuff.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it definitely, you know, I think I'm hoping she'll want to read them later.
• 17:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I gave her a copy of Change of Plans and she rids some of it and then she got distracted with all this college stuff.
• 17:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, you don't, you don't want to be that person that's like, have you finished my mock?
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You just like checking where like the dog areas in her book.
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, yeah, she's the teenager, like, I get it, you know, I think the last, I, I, I can't even imagine like I said, if my mom was known for writing books about teenagers and I was a teenager, I probably too would not want to look at them really.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, that totally makes sense.
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's like part of me that's like, as you're talking about, that she's about to go to college and she's finishing high school.
• 18:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, like, this is the perfect time to read serides and novels.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is when you need them, like, as you're going through this transition, because that's what you do so well.
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm like, okay, but you have to set about.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is her mom.
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is something she can help her with in real life.
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't have to get the lessons from a novel.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I hope that maybe one day she'll she'll dive into your back catalog and be like, oh, that's she smart that mom of mine.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope so.
• 18:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's really interesting because as the book is changing plans begins, Finley is literally starting, you know, graduating from high school for the book begins.
• 18:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then, you know, this book is coming out literally a month before I'm doing that with my daughter.
• 18:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, and I wrote the book ages ago.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, for straps.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's weird how the universe will just align things for you in ways that, again, that you could never plan or.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like yourself.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that so much.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just love thinking about the idea of thinly graduating and then from your perspective kind of watching your daughter.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know that it'll be very different from thinly in her relationship with her mom.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know that you'll be standing there cheering for her.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I just love that kind of juxtaposition in your own life that feels like it kind of came for all circle for you there.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It did and that's the thing is like a lot so much of this book is about, you know, the past the way try to chart for ourselves and then how you they often are not what you end up doing but you end up where you're supposed to be.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I really feel like this is a great time for me to have a book out because my daughter is graduating and, you know, she's sort of flying the nest next year and I can get back to, you know, traveling and doing book conferences and everything and
• 19:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like I wouldn't have chosen to take all this time off, probably, but I think it's been the best thing and people have had a chance to miss me.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the album they miss, there we go away.
• 19:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so we'll win away long enough that, you know, and it wasn't, like I said, it wasn't by choice and it wasn't all good days.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there were some dark moments.
• 20:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had been writing for so long and then suddenly, you know, this happens in publishing, the the market just shifted and it was like there really weren't a lot of people that were interested in buying contemporary fiction and the kind of thing that I do everybody was like do you want to will you write a romantic scene will you write a series will you do this and
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just have always kind of known what I do, and I don't think I do other things that well, but this I know how to do, and I sort of just want to stick with what felt true to me.
• 20:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of just had to wait for the pendulum to swing back in the other direction, and hope that these readers were still there, which when you were reading all those comments, I was like, they were there, you know, well, this time, because I've been a lot of days being who sad, sometimes being sad out here at my house, being like, it's
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: over, you know, but it wasn't.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was just sort of on pause for a little while and for good reasons as it turns out.
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's quite interesting that the reflection from, I guess, like the publishing industry is that there wasn't that space for like the Sarah Desan style novel because when I was I was on book talk like years ago at this point,
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And everyone was rereading their Sarah Desert books.
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that was like a trend at the time to like dive back into your old Sarah Desert novels.
• 21:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like very sadly when I turned 18, I felt like I needed to be serious at the time.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I like very like one of like the most like tragic parts of like being gonna don't not looking back at my teen years.
• 21:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like got rid of all of my original.
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: copies of your books like with my annotations, all of that.
• 21:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so now whenever I go like to thrifting or goodwill and I find one of your original covers, I like collect them all and I was doing that on book talk like a couple years ago and it was like other people like oh I'm reading all my serides in books right now or like I'm between romances right now so I'm just going back to all of them.
• 21:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like they were so popular, people were loving that it was really at the time when fearless Taylor's version came out that it like kind of was like reminiscing on it because that's really what like feels like that time of your novels, that it's like if you were reading like Sarah Dusson and listening to fearless by Taylor Swift, now you're reading adult romance, but probably still Sarah Dusson and listening to Taylor's version.
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love Taylor Swift, so I that
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: High praise also, you know, and I think, you know, it's been, you know, like I said, it's been different being away and sort of coming back into a world of publishing that is very different, but I've always believed that there is a market and a need for stories that are just, I would say like real stories about real people, you know, I mean, that's always going to be a need for that, but I understand the trends like because I've been here long enough to remember when it was all about the empires and werewolves and everybody was close.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, you don't.
• 22:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was always like, I just think that would be embarrassing for everybody myself, the where will, like, every minute, you know, like, that where will would be so embarrassed.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, there's just, I think you can tell when someone isn't writing to their truth, right?
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And writing is hard enough without trying to do something that you're not.
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I have a lot of admiration for writers who can jump between genres and there's some people that are really, really good at it, but I'm just not one of them, you know, like I know what they do and I feel like I do it pretty well, so that's just where I am.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, jumping back in time, let's time travel a little bit.
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've been talking all about like your recent days, but something I love to ask authors, which I'm very excited to ask you about is that Gilmore girls came out in October 2000, so almost 26 years ago now.
• 23:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: What were you writing in the year 2000?
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had just had my book Dreamland come out.
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was honestly what I feel like was sort of a big turning point actually around 2000 for me because I've always felt like my first four books.
• 23:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's some are someone like you keep in the mainstream land.
• 23:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are sort of like if we're going to use Taylor references like that was my first era.
• 23:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was my the beginning era.
• 23:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: The books are shorter, you know, they're a little bit more simple.
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were me writing before I turned 30 like they were much younger and then
• 23:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: this lullaby, which I was writing in 2000 and then came out.
• 23:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe in 2001, maybe 2002, but that was a big shift for me.
• 23:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Remi as a narrator was a big shift for me because before I had been writing sort of about girls that were very much like me who were sort of quiet and had the dynamic friend that sort of pulled them along and they were the Oracle and they reported on
• 24:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember my agent saying to me, you know, you always have these dynamic friends you should write from the point of view of the dynamic friend.
• 24:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, that is so stupid.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I could never do that in a million years.
• 24:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then I started thinking about it and Remi just kind of came up out of that.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I could say around 2000 was when I was sort of turning my own page in some ways from these first four books, which I love and I'm really proud of.
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to me, there is very much a demarcation between Dreamland and this little guy.
• 24:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, and you can kind of sense that that's that's really interesting that you say that because I would consider myself someone who's a lot more quiet that like I get pulled along by the outgoing friend and then when we step into Remi story it really is like you're you're meeting the outgoing friend, but I think I kind of loved that about your books is that I was someone who was like smart and quiet and was friends with my mom and very much like Rory, but I felt like such a deep connection to like your your work in that way that maybe maybe it was maybe it was okay to write about the
• 25:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I definitely have come back to the quiet girl.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think Remi was sort of an aberrant in her own way because I do love.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love a found family.
• 25:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love I was the Oracle of my friend group.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I had I've close girlfriends and you know, they were all very dynamic and beautiful and charming and and I sort of just flowed along behind them remembering, you know, all the stories telling all the stories.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I even didn't want me to remember that people.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: thing that they would prefer that we could offer get about I was always low and that was like but remember that.
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's that's sort of my sweet spot.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think very much to the girl that's kind of experiencing it all.
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then that great moment when she gets to kind of step in and be the person at the center of everything and be in the spotlight.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's nobody did find the dynamics of that kind of friend group or especially just even with one friend with the best friend, you know, there's so much you can do there.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like you've explored the mall in so many different ways and still ways to explore as you continue writing.
• 26:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: What was it that drew you to writing in the first place?
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always love to read.
• 26:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in a very bookish house.
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: My dad was a Shakespeare professor.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I was faculty-brat, I grew up here in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, on campus, my mom dragging me to, you know, various campus events and stuff.
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we went to the library every weekend, and I just docked up on books and brought books home.
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I really, really loved to read.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think some of writing came from that.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all sort of like,
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: fan fiction, you know, like you finish a book and you don't want it to be of course, so you write another chapter or, you know, you're so jealous of something that you wrote that affected you, that you read, that affected you so much, that you're like, I want to try to do this, you know.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I loved telling stories.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had the little typewriter, this is really going to date me, but I had a typewriter and a little desk in our TV room, and I would sit there with my typewriter, and I would just type up my little stories, you know, and
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Luckily, I had parents that really encouraged me, and they always were so supportive.
• 27:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it wasn't really in in high school, I wrote just for me and my friends.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I like to write stories, and I wrote a lot of stories about us, because we were always downtown Chappel, who get into trouble, and we're not kind of.
• 27:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I would sort of make these fictional, but not quite, you know, stories about us and they would pass them around at lunch and everything.
• 27:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we love that writing for like an audience, but it really wasn't until I got to college and had a professor say to me, you know, you're good at this, you should do this.
• 27:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's very often what it takes, especially in the arts, is you just need someone else.
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you think you might be good, but sometimes you need someone that is not your parent or your friend.
• 27:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, you're good at this and that's where it's outside approval can make all the difference.
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially I feel like is that one person, especially when you're young, like, whether it's from like elementary school to college, I still feel like you're in that part of your life where you need someone to say like, you're good at this and you're like, okay, we're cool.
• 27:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's all I needed.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Full sense.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to go into this.
• 27:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting, you say that because the last couple of authors I talked to, they've all brought up a moment where there was one person in their life that was like, you're good at writing.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: they just took it and went with it and that was their career.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I love that.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you had that moment too, especially like writing about young adults.
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like you are so aware of like what their emotional needs are and especially having someone being like, hey, you can do that.
• 28:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're good at that.
• 28:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you are.
• 28:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were right.
• 28:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, when I was in college, I had no interest in writing, you know, like I said, young adult was so different and, you know, when you're in college, the last thing you want to think about as high school.
• 28:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I got to UNC, I was taking these writing classes and trying to write very dark stuff like everybody where it's in college.
• 28:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was, you know, like lots of dark trees against, you know, dark sky.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of different things, cigarettes and you know, just being
• 28:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 28:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And none of these stories were very good.
• 28:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: My, you know, they're like, this isn't great.
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I wrote a story about the prom and everybody loved it.
• 28:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, this is not what I want to be right about.
• 29:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're like, oh, she wore this.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, no, I hate high school.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, I don't want to write about high school.
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that clearly was kind of where, you know, where I was meant to be.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just dating myself, but my high school quote senior quote was Pink Floyd, which tells you a lot of what who I was at high school.
• 29:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the quote is the time is gone.
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: The song is over.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I had something more to say.
• 29:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I always think about that because I'm like, I did have a lot more to say.
• 29:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, you know, you know, you know, much happened during those years.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I grew up in this very unique environment of this college town.
• 29:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: At a time when kids were not really that supervised, you know, and we kind of ran wild and had all these experiences.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I did not expect to be writing young at all.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing was, I felt there was a lot of stigma when I first did get published in young at all.
• 29:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, people didn't know what was, you know, people are like, is it all about girls getting their periods?
• 29:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, who's going to write a whole book about some, even, are you there got as me Margaret?
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just about a girl getting no, it's not like, it only happens once a month.
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not that long.
• 30:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: talk about that.
• 30:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, and I had people when I was teaching in the English department, I'd be like, well, does your book have pictures?
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Does it have pop ups?
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, no, you know, it would be fun, but like, no.
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was what was quite a fun when, what Pendulum did swing.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And all of a sudden, a lot of these contemporary authors were wanting to write, why?
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because there was a lot of attention on why.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, I've been here through all these different phases and everything.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, again, it's just sort
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, it's like, let's not question it too much.
• 30:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just lean into it.
• 30:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 30:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: How did you reconcile that feeling of like when you were in that class and writing about the prom and you're like, I hated high school?
• 30:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why is this what it's resonating with everyone?
• 30:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: How did you reconcile that feeling of kind of not wanting to revisit that time of your life, but then like your entire career became writing about young women in that phase in their life?
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it was, you know, once the book started coming out, seeing how many people had been through similar experiences to me and seeing how powerful that voice really can be.
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I, when I first sold that summer, I just sent off another book to an agency and they were like, no, but it's give us, and I sent us something else that you've worked on.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I sent this book with a 15 year old narrator and the agent who stole my agent said, called me up and said, you know, this is young adult and I was like, oh, no, no, I'm not young adult.
• 31:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am a serious literary writer.
• 31:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, just trust me and sold it to a children's book, you know, publisher.
• 31:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly I was, you know, the whole writer.
• 31:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of fell in backwards to it.
• 31:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, it was a voice that really worked for me.
• 31:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I I made my piece with it over time because I saw how enthusiastic people were about these stories.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like this hidden secret that nobody tells you, you know, that not just the teenage girl readers, but the librarians and the teachers and the people that deal with teens.
• 31:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: mystical, very cool world that a lot of people just don't even know exist, you know.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, when you're in these girls where they are, where they haven't had a lot of reading experience, and they're so excited.
• 32:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, they leave reviews with a million exclamation points, and they burst into tears in the signing line.
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, who doesn't want that?
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, it's, it's really capturing people when they're first falling in love with reading, which is just such an amazing time.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 32:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like you're such a good person to like honestly like burst into tears and run up in a signing line.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you're such like a calm presence that like you can recognize that they're crying because of the impact that your words had and maybe not because you are standing in front of them.
• 32:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not exactly why it's not me.
• 32:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's what the books made them feel.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I'm sure that's how actors feel.
• 32:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, when you just fall apart in front of them because of stuff, you know, I mean, you know, when you produce some piece of work that really resonates with people, you are sort of the avatar for that work, even if you're not person, you know, so it's whatever emotional experience they had is connected to you.
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I've always really touched like, I get tear if people get tear, you're all crying together, you know, it's just because I remember that feeling of like, you know, how powerfully something hits when it really hits at that age and not resonates.
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 33:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel kind of like you having this break is a little bit kind of like get more girls because I know that people have such a strong emotional connection to that show in the same way that they did to your work at the time.
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because like honestly, the amount of people that would message me because I was the summer that I read all your books was the summer that we were watching season one.
• 33:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: If go more girls on our patreon.
• 33:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think every single episode, it was like, oh this reminds me of this thing in the Sarah Dessa novel, because it felt very young at all.
• 33:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the amount of people that would message me being like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize you loved her books, because they're like, it really felt like the people who were watching Gilmore Girls as teens were also Sarah Dessa readers.
• 33:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like it felt like that venn diagram was a circle.
• 33:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it kind of felt like now that you're coming back, it's kind of like that idea of like the Gilmore Girls Revival of.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of like revisiting this work.
• 33:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's very different because of course the same story was being revisited in that but for you it's an entirely new story but it's still that same feeling like all your friends are coming back in a different way.
• 34:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and it's kind of nostalgic definitely.
• 34:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I felt that way in the the Gilmour Girls season that was on Netflix you know I mean I know we haven't got a bugger but
• 34:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I watched all of the original series every bit of it, you know, and then to watch it and to see everybody kind of coming back, it was just like, you know, it is.
• 34:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like seeing old friends again, but in new places.
• 34:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 34:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, before we get into Gilmore Girls, I have one question from our editor.
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that is, if you have a favorite book of yours that you either the writing process was something that you loved or the finished product is just like chef's
• 34:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I could ask this fairly often, and I always feel bad like picking one book of the others, just like picking a favorite child.
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: When I would have one dollar, one child, so I could easily pick the book.
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I always will say this little by kind of for the reason that we talked about earlier was it was sort of archer for me at that point.
• 34:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the beginning of a new road.
• 35:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it honestly, the books that really were hard writing that I am the most proud of.
• 35:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those would be the truth about forever and just those.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: favorites.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Many ways the harder it was to write the better the book is in many ways.
• 35:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those two were pretty brutal with the writing, but I also felt like they were really what got me into another level in terms of people reading them.
• 35:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so when people ask me, you know, what should I read of your books?
• 35:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those are older books now and I definitely have books since then that I point people towards.
• 35:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to really like I hear more about the truth about forever and I think about
• 35:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those were the books that really resonated with people.
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So those are the ones I tend to, and this love I just because it was fun to write.
• 35:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that was like going to a party every day.
• 35:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think I've had one like that sense.
• 35:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wish.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's like the spinnerbait lore kind of first appeared.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it feels like that was kind of where we were making like the Sarah Desson multiverse, this universe, and that Carolina kind of,
• 36:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: birthed from that book.
• 36:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it feels like really important in that way, but I will say to that forever and just listen to my favorite, like not even just like favorite books if yours.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like favorite books of all time.
• 36:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like those are like up there on those like books that like I will recommend to people now to read because they're just so impactful.
• 36:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But before we get into talking about gummer girls, I have a little, it's a little game.
• 36:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's called, keep the plans or change the plans, just to get to know you a little bit.
• 36:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Through your books, through gummer girls scenarios, so I'll give you a scenario.
• 36:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll tell me if we're going to keep the plans or if we're going to change the plans.
• 36:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay.
• 36:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: The first one is a friend has surprised plans for you.
• 36:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're taking you to a spinnerbait concert.
• 36:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh dear.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it would depend on how big of a fan they were of Spitterbait because I don't use extreme people, you know, because I have often been music sham because I grew up in this very alternative music area of Chapel Hill and, you know, we used to make fun of my Spice Girls CDs when they would come over to my house, you know, because I was listening to the Fixies or, you know, sort of for sure.
• 37:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if they were like a spinnerbait super fan, and they really wanted to go, I probably would go.
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Whether I would hit would be a whole other thing.
• 37:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 37:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think I would keep the plan just because I don't know.
• 37:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just want to experience it.
• 37:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 37:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just going to see, there's always something to, there's always a story that comes out of everything.
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's always a story.
• 37:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You go to have breakfast, but you end up on the staff, helping them with the morning rush.
• 37:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would keep the plans, if that means stay on them.
• 37:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I waited tables and it was one of the best things that ever did.
• 37:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really, yeah, it got me over a lot of my shyness.
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, before I waited tables, I was not that good at getting up in front of people and definitely wasn't that a serve in waiting tables was kind of like life training for me to serve.
• 37:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: they get up and be like, okay, everybody over here, please, you know, yeah.
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Want me to manage things and to manage stress and to just sort of, you know, there are a lot of life lessons from waitressing that also apply to writing, which is sort of just like the tenacious keep going, even when it gets really hard.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a great job for a writer also because I had, I did have to bring any work home with me, you know, just worked hard.
• 38:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also I got to hear conversations all day long, even though you've had to act like you listening.
• 38:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I definitely got lots of little pieces of stories from doing that.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, I would definitely stay working.
• 38:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that.
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love because that, that, the medical issue has been a lot of your work like part-time jobs.
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like that feels like really, really in keeping with the Sarah Desson universe.
• 38:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: A guy you work with at the school paper invites you to jump off a scaffolding with him and an umbrella.
• 38:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I would say change the plans.
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even if it was Logan because I'm just not wanting to break a neck here.
• 38:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not too scary for me.
• 38:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, so sorry.
• 38:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're cute, but like, it can't do it.
• 38:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're cheating.
• 38:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I know the girl is not a parachute.
• 38:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a parasol, whatever.
• 38:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, there's love and there's like risk in your life.
• 38:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm gonna break my legs.
• 39:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I love you, but I don't like the interaction.
• 39:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 39:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your daughter tells you
• 39:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, dear.
• 39:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's keep her plans change her plans.
• 39:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Leave her plans.
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, I would say, let her change her plans.
• 39:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, I that is someone whose daughter has gone off to college yet, but I dropped out of a school.
• 39:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: after.
• 39:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 39:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 39:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I went to Greensboro right out of high school.
• 39:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did not want to go to UNC Chapel Hall and my daughter's in the same boat because it's here.
• 39:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's home.
• 39:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the backyard.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Went to UNC Greensboro was very unhappy.
• 39:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dropped out.
• 39:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Came back here and rolled it a writing class in my whole life changed.
• 39:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So.
• 39:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a farm believer that if you kind of figure out that you're where you're in your place where you're not supposed to be, that if you've given it a fair shot, you know, and just realize that again, like I couldn't have predicted that that would have led me to creative writing here.
• 39:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to be an advertising major.
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had no interest in doing right.
• 40:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's its own type of writing.
• 40:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and a whole different other type of writing, but then I came back here and I landed at UNC and I created a writing and an insure creative
• 40:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that way.
• 40:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love that way.
• 40:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 40:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would support on that.
• 40:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, depending on, I mean, I would try to like get her to reason and think about it, think it through.
• 40:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not in it.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how somebody they shouldn't drop out of call.
• 40:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I actually love that take.
• 40:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I, I think that the amount that the more I fought her was maybe why she fought back so hard on it.
• 40:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I should have been like, okay.
• 40:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 40:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's have a snack and you drop out of school and we'll see what happens by the summer.
• 40:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what I think you're like, too, was coming from a different environment.
• 40:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, when I dropped out in my parents, we're very academic, you know, and I think if you, if you have someone who's really like the person that's supposed to go to school and do that and sort of do it for both of you, you know, it's a lot more pressure, I think, in some way.
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 40:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So your in laws are taking over your wedding and it's not what you want it to be.
• 40:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: change the plans.
• 41:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: If that's what they're doing.
• 41:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: No.
• 41:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: No.
• 41:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not their wedding.
• 41:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: They had a chance to have their own.
• 41:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: If they're the year-in-laws, they already had their own.
• 41:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 41:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And don't wait.
• 41:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just pick up for yourself because it took me a long time to be comfortable enough to do that.
• 41:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the faster you learn that lesson, that you know, people are not always going to like you.
• 41:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Meg Cabot.
• 41:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome quote from her once.
• 41:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It like you're not a hundred dollar bill.
• 41:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Not everybody's going to like you.
• 41:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and
• 41:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: it's really true.
• 41:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think for girls in particular you kind of got to make peace with not everybody like you all the time if you want to be happy.
• 41:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and a lot of these scenarios will make sense when she guys read Change of Plans because a lot of them come from there.
• 41:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: That was like one of my favorite little storylines I loved her.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're stuck using a landline after an incident with your cell phone and in this case do you keep the keep the landline or do you change of plans and get a new phone?
• 41:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would probably try to keep the landline just to be because I am a person who spends too much time on my phone.
• 41:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think having somebody else control, having not even the option to go on Instagram and lose myself down a rabbit hole of reels, you know, which is lose hours of my life doing that.
• 42:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, but we'll see how long you can hold out.
• 42:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this does happen and change of plans and it's yeah.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: is, mainly because she's in a very sort of small community, but I think if you were actually trying to, you know, be in school or be working a job that required you to be online and stuff it would be a lot harder.
• 42:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I would try it.
• 42:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm at my healthiest when I lose my phone and I don't know where it is, you know.
• 42:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
• 42:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I leave it somewhere and I don't even know and I'm like, oh god, where do I put my phone?
• 42:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's when I know I'm really in my best state of mind.
• 42:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Same, like I have a brick.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you've seen those where you can tap your phone and it like can lock whatever apps you set it to until you tap it back and sometimes I'll leave the house for getting to unbreak my phone.
• 42:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so then when I go out it's basically like having a flip phone and the only thing I can do is call people.
• 42:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I'm like, must cut nice, because I can take pictures, I can call people, but there's nothing else I can do.
• 43:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I happened when I went to Disney World with my family and my phone go out.
• 43:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was just my camera and it was just I could text them.
• 43:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, this is perfect.
• 43:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I no one could get in touch for me with me except for the people that I'm here with, which was
• 43:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of perfect kind of the the dream scenario.
• 43:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I got back into reading for the same reason like I had always read a lot that I I read a lot now because I try to always have a book with me and not just my phone and it's amazing how many books you can read if you just put your phone down.
• 43:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, here 20 minutes there while you're waiting in line somewhere to just, you know, in reading has so many benefits in that way, you know, rather than reading on a screen.
• 43:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's been my other hack with the the phone screen.
• 43:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you could book, lever hack.
• 43:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't bring your phone bring your phone.
• 43:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't call your mom.
• 43:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we have your book.
• 43:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're supposed to go to New York, but end up in a cabin in the woods with family.
• 43:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've never really met.
• 43:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is a tough one because I know for growth, it should be, you know, except the change and be with the family.
• 43:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I love New York.
• 43:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know we were just talking about New York before this.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, no, I want to go to the shows.
• 44:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to go eat the food.
• 44:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to go the woods.
• 44:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my gosh.
• 44:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 44:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think, you know, long-term probably better to keep the plan and stay with your family because you never know what's going to happen.
• 44:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you never get to know people better than when you're all cooped up somewhere far away from civilization.
• 44:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 44:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's when you're like an accelerated, you know, knowing of someone when you're stuck with them on vacation somewhere.
• 44:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 44:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I still think I would change the plans of good in your work.
• 44:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the last one is you dropped out of Yale and your ex comes to ask you why did you drop out of Yale?
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you going to change your plans and go back to school or keep your plans and stay dropped out of Yale?
• 44:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just because somebody came back and asked you about it, just because your ex came back and kind of tried to face a little bit.
• 44:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: The wide drop out of Yale.
• 44:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
• 44:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would hope that I would keep my plans and do it for myself, not for somebody else.
• 44:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, that's a big decision to make just because somebody else thinks you should or someone else's.
• 44:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even sort of talking you into it, you know, they're not the ones that are going to be dealing with everything that's cool.
• 45:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm coming off as someone that's like, drop out of school and believe me.
• 45:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am not that personal, but I do think, you know, college is serious business.
• 45:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't want to be here, you won't laugh, especially at a school of Yale.
• 45:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, even if you love school, being at a place like Yale, it's tough, you know?
• 45:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you really, be a higher person than down with being there.
• 45:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors.
• 45:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 45:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, and I don't think you're coming off of everyone drop out of school.
• 45:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't go to school.
• 45:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's more of like, do what feels right for you and don't let anyone impact that regardless of like what the appearance of something might be.
• 45:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, well, and you never know what's going to happen.
• 45:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's that is the takeaway of the last seven years of my life.
• 45:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is the last takeaway of the last couple of months of my life.
• 45:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: My dad passed away in January, you know, he was so sorry.
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you.
• 45:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he had just been going along and along and along.
• 45:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then one day I got a phone call that said he was in the hospital.
• 46:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then from then on it was just.
• 46:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so you just don't know.
• 46:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You get a run call on a Thursday night in your whole life changes.
• 46:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: So really, you know, you can't plan too much ahead because the universe always has other plans.
• 46:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh, I'm so sorry.
• 46:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you said he was 90.
• 46:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's such a long, beautiful life.
• 46:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he turned 90 in November.
• 46:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he had a great life.
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: He had a, he was never in pain.
• 46:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he was really excited about this book because as a dad, he'd been really worried that I hadn't had a book come out of some years.
• 46:28
  [UNKNOWN]: No.
• 46:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was very excited for me, that's I think of him as sort of sitting on my shoulder when I do stuff like this and talking about the books and everything because he was very proud and I think he'd be very excited to see me going back out and promoting the books again.
• 46:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the amount of love that this being shown to you, I'm sure he'd be very, very proud of that.
• 46:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But going into Gilmore girls, again, I feel like your work feels as important to me as Gilmore girls as someone who's like entire job revolves around books and Gilmore girls at this point.
• 46:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this is new in Gilmore girls go hand in hand and it was really because I was reading your books as I was obsessing over Logan Huntsberger in the show so like it's really hard to separate the two of those.
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I would love to know what year relationship with Gilmore girls is.
• 47:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like when you first started watching it and how you felt about it at the time.
• 47:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I came to it a little bit late, I believe, because my daughter was born in 2007, and I think I came to go more girls around like 2003, so it had been going for a little while because I remember, because this was back in the days of DVDs.
• 47:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember buying the first season on DVD, maybe, and
• 47:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: getting totally hooked on it and then sort of racing through the first couple of seasons because I think you had to watch the Monday BD at that point they weren't streaming or anything and then starting to watch them as they were happening on television So I kind of came to what they raced through caught up and then was in it till the very end You know, especially after Daniel Paladino left or after Amy sure you know there was that one term when I remember there You know much scuddle, but you know and people being like it's not
• 48:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: This, you know, like, I'm a person that I am a person that I'll watch.
• 48:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll turn the lights out.
• 48:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I watched 902 to the very end.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, I knew there was still watching that show.
• 48:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really loyal, but I remember just my husband and I both got really into go more girls and we were watching it.
• 48:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: regularly all the way until the very end.
• 48:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I watched it again with my daughter when she was probably in elementary school, late elementary school, early middle school.
• 48:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: We, we went back to the beginning and watched the whole thing together.
• 48:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that was a really fun experience.
• 48:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think to watch it first is just knowing only as a daughter and then to watch it again as a mom with a daughter.
• 48:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I, you know, I always loved it and the whole thing about, you know, I was a Jessica all from
• 48:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, I do love Logan.
• 48:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have to say he would be my second.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's fair.
• 48:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but just was always I like that sort of birdie dark reader type.
• 49:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like he's got a book in his pocket.
• 49:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are you supposed to do but love him?
• 49:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I loved when I mean he totally like pushed all of Rose buttons like writing in her book and everything like, ah, you know, I just, I just kind of love that it's always going to be the dark boy that's like appealing to me.
• 49:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even that are like the totally goofy oddball, which Dean and Logan were not that either.
• 49:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Might have served her well to have a silly guy kind of like throw into the mix.
• 49:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I might have brought that might have worked well for her.
• 49:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny that you say like just writing in the margins because like at the time just inspired me to write in my books, but the books that I was writing in were your books.
• 49:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So like that's so funny that you say that because that's kind of where that came from for me because I like writing margins of all my books because that's what just did.
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it was your book, so that was doing that too.
• 49:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But not books just would have been reading, but maybe just would have been starring in.
• 49:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of something I thought about that.
• 49:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I find it so fun that you watch Gilmore Girls on your own with your husband and then came back and watched with your daughter.
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: What did she think of it?
• 50:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like was she invested in it in the same way that you were, was there's like expectation that like you don't want to pressure her to watch it, but she loved it all the same.
• 50:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: She liked it.
• 50:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, she was a little young.
• 50:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think when we watched the Netflix revival, which you probably know better than how much time had gone in between.
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: By 2016, she was, you know, nine or whatever, no, it's 2016.
• 50:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 50:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, she was still, I think we watched some of that, and then we went back and watched the earlier one.
• 50:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think we watched them all, but I'm not sure.
• 50:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would kind of like to go back and watch it with her now.
• 50:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it is such a touchstone for her generation as well as, you know, I feel like that was my show.
• 50:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I know that she and her friends, you know, watch it in so many girls that age are really into it still.
• 50:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it holds up, you know, in its own way for sure.
• 50:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that there's something that's just so classic about it that that story between mother and daughter is always going to either feel like a fantasy because like maybe you have more like an Emily relationship with your mom.
• 51:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: and you wanted that lower library or you watched it with your mom like your daughter will probably winch maybe when she gets to college she'll watch it and have that same memory of having watched part of it with your mom because i think that's just that's a fun personally my mom she never watched it but she knows everything through osmosis they're just maybe in obsessive that's through the same thing she never read your books but she knew all about them because just being being around me
• 51:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: you talked about like kind of when you were watching it the first time you're watching it as a daughter and then you watched it the second time you watched it as a mother.
• 51:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: How did that change your perspective as you went through this series?
• 51:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well I think it made me even more appreciate the character of Laura and how well she was written and
• 51:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: How rare it was, really, that you saw single moms on TV, even then in the 2000s that were that the idea of a young young mom, somebody having, you know, this sort of taboo subject about a team mother and everything and then bringing up her daughter in both of them being relatively young.
• 51:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But Laurel, I was such a unique character.
• 51:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think in Lauren Graham was a big part of that, obviously, but even before I was a mom, I admired her sort of the flourishessness.
• 52:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: even as someone who had, you know, made some mistakes and done some things that is a teenager, obviously with her own mother being very controlling.
• 52:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's, she's the real bridge in between too, because you have her as a mother.
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We know that, you know, for her relationship, but you also see so much of her with a daughter with Emily, especially in the early episodes where she's just coming back and she has to do the Friday dinners.
• 52:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I think that's, that's the really interesting thing is it isn't just about a mother and a daughter, but it's about a mother who is also a daughter.
• 52:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think it was such an interesting way of doing that and I think as a novelist in particular, it's really intriguing to me how how that story is told because you do have like the the daughter on one side and the mother on the other and then Laura like kind of in the middle.
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was just really smart and clever how they did that.
• 52:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: That kind of fits perfectly into a question I have for you about how you watch shows like this because like being someone who is
• 52:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Probably in temperament, you're watching her, but as someone who's career is writing stories like the one that worry is living, when you watch shows like that, is there one that you gravitate towards more?
• 53:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it depends.
• 53:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think a part of me is always more drawn to the teenage story, I think, because that, that to me is still very vivid, and that is interesting to me, because that's what I write and that's where I am.
• 53:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of a change once I had a kid of my own,
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: The moms were always like, you know, the mom, and that mom's so strict.
• 53:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she's so hard on her daughter and everything.
• 53:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then when I had my baby, I was just like, well, of course she doesn't want you to get in the car with that boy.
• 53:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, so it's hard to play both.
• 53:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I can have both experiences and some ways depending on when I watch.
• 53:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that, you know, Roy's relationship with Lane in particular, I just really loved that as far as like the YA aspect of that and how alike they were and also lanes like secret life, you know, the stuff that she hit and her really domineering mom like that's a whole novel with itself.
• 54:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's absolutely right there.
• 54:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that, that intrigued me.
• 54:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the early romance of Dean, obviously, which was just so sweet and well done, even though he's my least favorite of the boys, I was actually going to ask you because like I said like earlier when I was watching him have like Dean feels like when he hops on the bus with her I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so like written by Sarah doesn't like I'm like my heart is like pitter patterning, but he ultimately kind of becomes everyone's least favorite.
• 54:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like what did you feel about the evolution of the Dean character?
• 54:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like he couldn't really win because we were never going to want Rory to end up with the first guy that she fell in love with, you know.
• 54:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it definitely made sense to me that he would kind of end up, you know, not being because I think that that first love and that first rush of crushing, it makes anybody seem exotic and exciting and everything.
• 54:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And over time, maybe you start to see that maybe that person isn't
• 54:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: that exciting.
• 54:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just the more what you felt about them was very exciting.
• 54:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, it was charming and it was so sweet, you know, that was sort of her young, her younger phase, but then, you know, when the time Jess rolls around, she's looking to be challenged a little bit more.
• 55:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 55:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are you supposed to do when my love into Amelia rolls on the scene?
• 55:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mike, it just, like, that doesn't, there's nothing you could do.
• 55:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing to do.
• 55:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in that same like vein of kind of comparing your books to Gilmore Girls, one of my biggest takeaways from your books is that there are relationships that feel the need to define you and relationships that feel like you have the safety to define yourself and kind of find out who you are, which of those two do you think that Rory's relationships would fit in?
• 55:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like do you think Dean is maybe the former or the latter for Rory?
• 55:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that Rory hadn't evolved that much with Dean, that she kind of up with him a little bit.
• 55:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were both young and very innocent, and neither one of them had much experience.
• 55:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was like, they were both brand new.
• 55:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think by the time she gets to Jess, she does have this more of a past behind her and some experience about how those things can go.
• 56:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And clearly, we don't hear a lot about his, that much about his past.
• 56:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: He was with her jacket, where was supposed to do?
• 56:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We just had other relationships.
• 56:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't seem like someone who has never been in a relationship before.
• 56:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 56:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think with the first relationship, and this is often the case in my books too, is like that first relationship is so much about the other person in all the feelings that you're having.
• 56:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then as you go on, it's more about you in the way that you're feeling in that relationship.
• 56:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and then the book I'm working on right now, I have a girl who has had this boyfriend for the last two years of high school and he's nice and she's had a good time with him, but she doesn't really understand like her friends are like, this is not the way it's supposed to be like, it's supposed to be like, oh, you know, your head exploding and like this itch that only they can scratch, and she's like, oh, what does that mean?
• 56:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then she meets this boy that it's suddenly like, whoa.
• 57:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know where it just comes out of nowhere and so I'm so excited so I think that's that's sort of the same thing is like when you're starting on the same level with somebody else and you just have no knowledge whatsoever other than that person and that person makes me feel this way but then as you go along you're sort of bringing that experience along with you and it's coloring everything that you're doing
• 57:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I mentioned before, a lot of your books have part-time jobs is there a group of co-workers from any of your past books that you feel like we could drop Roy into and maybe Roy could do some self-discovery with that little group of co-worker found family.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think any of them, because I feel like I didn't see Roy always seem to be very singular in a lot of ways.
• 57:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she had friends.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was also like, you know, wanted to sit alone at lunch and read a book.
• 57:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and maybe when she got more to yell, she had Paris and everything, but I would have loved to drop her in with like the wish catering crew or even in this new in change of plans, put her in at the egg, give her a job, what has nothing to do with being intellectual and to be with a group, you know, because I think when you're a very, so you're used to being very solo, sometimes you really discover a lot about yourself being around other people.
• 58:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think in those kind of jobs where you're kind of thrown into a situation together and especially if there's a time aspect like with weight or saying or working in the kitchen or something it really bonds you it's like it's like quick bonding you end up really getting They keep saying this to my undaughter because she like works at a camp and she's or she's been like doing tutoring and stuff and I'm like
• 58:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: How much should you go get a job at a restaurant?
• 58:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to go work somewhere with a group of people because those people will become people.
• 58:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so many of the people I worked out that I worked with at my restaurant, I worked at a place called the Fly and Burrito here in Chappell House, so I learned more.
• 58:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Love.
• 58:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: God bless.
• 58:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: RIP.
• 58:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I still a lot of the personalities that I write about a lot of, you know, the character traits that I find really interesting.
• 58:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely have stolen over the years from a lot of those people in that dynamic.
• 59:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was the first job I had where I was really working with a lot of people.
• 59:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the other thing is like every day is different.
• 59:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you never know what's going to happen.
• 59:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You never know, you know, what kind of people are coming or going or whatever.
• 59:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: You think Roy would have benefited from being sort of thrown into a such a she's so good at everything, you know, she's so smart, so capable, she's used to be in like the smartest girl in the class and everything so I would love to see her thrown into a situation where she didn't know anything.
• 59:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, where she had to like learn on the, learn on the job immediately I thought of her working at the ag because it kind of feels like Luke's but she's on the other side of it because like Luke's never has like that rush that we see that they have in the book.
• 59:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: but I kind of felt like that would be so much fun to just kind of see her everything stripped away and like forced to learn the shorthand on the phone, taking orders.
• 59:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would've loved that.
• 59:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 59:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of being on screen, I want to like jump back a little bit to your cameo and your Netflix movies, speaking of Netflix, along for the ride, which I just loved, like I didn't realize that they were adapting that into a movie until I think it was much
• 1:00:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh my gosh, this is a movie I was freaking out and I watched it just like crying because it was like here are my so my favorite characters.
• 1:00:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then we get a little glimpse of Sarah Desin like walking by walking out of the shop.
• 1:00:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: How did that feel being you're on that way?
• 1:00:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was so exciting and you know, via Sophia Alvarez who wrote the movie and directed it.
• 1:00:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, I want you to have a cameo and I mean, I, I could never do this job because it is so much like doing things over and over and over again from all these different angles like that little thing where I literally said, thanks girls and we know the door like all day.
• 1:00:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really, because you know you had to do it for one way and then another way and you're trying to have the light and everything But that was just such a great experience.
• 1:00:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had another movie in 2003 how to do which was the first two Looks put together and that was you know a studio movie it came out theater So that was one experience and the Netflix thing was very different, but
• 1:01:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I feel like I'm like a one woman publicity campaign to get people to watch this movie now because I think when it came out, it was at a period when Netflix was dropping a lot of stuff every weekend, you know, so it came out and it kind of just got lost in the shuffle as much as we tried to promote it and you know, we went out and did things and we had a big premiere and everything and it was super fun, but I'm constantly telling people who love the books and they're like, there's a movie on Netflix.
• 1:01:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so good to be like my second job is to be like, please go watch a lot for ride.
• 1:01:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's such a cute movie and figured it's such a wonderful job kind of capturing everything in the cast is so cool and it was really fun doing the cameo.
• 1:01:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's so fast like you have to sort of pause it to even catch a glimpse of my face.
• 1:01:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was what I heard your voice and I like saw you, I was like, is that?
• 1:01:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I like did the rewind.
• 1:01:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like,
• 1:01:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's neat.
• 1:01:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was really fun and you know, I was very grateful for you.
• 1:01:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's be it for, you know, writing me in there.
• 1:02:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just so much fun from start to finish.
• 1:02:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was 2021, I believe.
• 1:02:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we were coming out of the pandemic.
• 1:02:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was, you know, it was just, and they filmed it here in North Carolina.
• 1:02:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I just had to get on it.
• 1:02:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they filmed it in Carolina Beach, which is like two and a half hours from here.
• 1:02:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so and I just love the North Carolina coast.
• 1:02:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've set all these books and Colby.
• 1:02:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it was really, it was just like all these wonderful elements came in together and I really enjoyed everybody in the cast and we just had a really fun time it was great, you know, so I'm hoping people discover, you know, Belle Belmont come out, he's getting ready to be on this Amazon show this hockey show that I think is going to do really well.
• 1:02:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: called off campus, but I'm hoping that with Belle, you know, when him, you know, he's just so charming and wonderful that, you know, maybe people will want to see other stuff that he's made.
• 1:02:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm hoping that anyone who loves your books are like, honestly, it just loves like a summary YA sort of coming of age movie.
• 1:02:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll go back and read the book, but like the movie is just so cute.
• 1:03:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the perfect thing to just turn on if you want to feel good.
• 1:03:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you want to like have your heart broken a little bit, but men did perfectly completely by the end.
• 1:03:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel this is like a perfect.
• 1:03:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: movie for people to watch that like a lot of people in the question box they like when her book's being adapted to movies was like well funny you should ask they're actually is one i actually what's funny is my older sister she's almost four years older than me she was obsessed with the movie how to deal and i didn't know that it was an adaptation of two of your books together and so she loved that and would watch it all the time and it honestly wasn't until i was like later she
• 1:03:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: She was like, oh, do you remember that movie?
• 1:03:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: How to deal and I was like, not really.
• 1:03:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I would like to show up.
• 1:03:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you had been watching a Sarah Deson out of season.
• 1:03:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was reading her books and like, how did we not figure this out?
• 1:03:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like how to deal with my sister and then your books were me.
• 1:03:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it took us like years to figure out that they were the same thing ultimately.
• 1:03:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then she, I told her to watch along for the right in, of course.
• 1:03:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: She loves it.
• 1:03:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you love, I don't know, if you love feeling good, I feel like you should go to Netflix, find along for the ride and go along for the ride tonight.
• 1:04:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: there was a script and we had a director and everything for the slullaby.
• 1:04:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really.
• 1:04:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:04:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we had gotten all the way to a script.
• 1:04:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had a writer.
• 1:04:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had it.
• 1:04:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe we even had a director attached.
• 1:04:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then sort of there were all these changes that Netflix and it just kind of
• 1:04:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: poof, you know, went away, but that was supposed to be the next movie.
• 1:04:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I hold out hope that maybe someday.
• 1:04:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: See, I'm like just so hopeful that there is a like Sarah Dusson girly out there who is a director or producer and is like we have not capitalized on how essential these are to teen girls.
• 1:04:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: But also to the people who like have the buying power now, which is like millennial women that I'm just like fingers crossed that that I get to see the truth about forever on screen, honestly, because that that one would be fantastic.
• 1:04:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: We went we had the options with you know, how to deal and then there was sort of a dry period in there and I remember my agent saying to me, we just need to wait until your fans get old enough to be a development positions.
• 1:04:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: in all this and this girl, I say this girl, this woman, Alyssa Rodriguez, who was really the driving force between getting along for the ride made, she grew up bringing my books by the pool in Arizona, you know, and she, you know, she was a reader first and then she loved the books and she was really in many ways responsible for this movie being made at all.
• 1:05:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like it's, it's good.
• 1:05:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just swayed a little while until, you know, the people that the books are in a position to do something with them.
• 1:05:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm hoping that with this release that like Hollywood and the people in charge of making those will see just like how essential you are to people's lives and like growing up, but also like the new group of people who are going to find you the new like I'm so excited for teenagers like I honestly like any teenage girl that lives near me.
• 1:05:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to go out and buy it for them and be like you need this right now.
• 1:05:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is what you need in your life.
• 1:05:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what actually happened with Gilmore Girls is you were talking about your daughter's generation.
• 1:05:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's so important to them, too, is like it was like kind of a double hit.
• 1:06:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like either you watched it on WB, ABC Family, DVDs when you were in the 2000s, or it picked back up on Netflix and around 2014, and so now it's so accessible to people who want to go back to the 2000s and not have a cell phone and deal with just a pager.
• 1:06:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: walking around this small town that I think that, hopefully, that's some, fingers crossed.
• 1:06:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's what kind of happens for you is, like, you get that second hit of people with this new release that is my, is my mission right now to I feel like a Sarah dozen mission area to spread the word.
• 1:06:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, I'm going to take a look at it.
• 1:06:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 1:06:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: But speaking of this new book, I picked it for a book club because not only like because of the personal connection between your books and my journey with Gilmore Girls, but because it's thematically, it just fits so well, especially because it's the relationship with your mother, but you don't really know what it was like for her growing up.
• 1:06:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she kind of has his past that you need to uncover somewhat, but also this beautiful found family in this small town.
• 1:06:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're going through a transition of like,
• 1:06:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: who are you in your town versus going to someplace else and kind of getting to discover yourself again that it feels like thematically really fits and go more girls and reading this book I like forgot how much I love your writing and your voice and just the banter between characters like I was just like it was like one of those like kicking your feet giggling like my heart was racing like I was feeling so terrible with these like
• 1:07:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: choice is that some of these characters were making on behalf of Finley and then by the end.
• 1:07:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was just like am I 16 again?
• 1:07:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like have I just like gone in this journey?
• 1:07:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time it made me realize how important young adult novels can be for like I'm 33 that just it kind of teaches you like kind of revisit those essential lessons in your life that I feel like.
• 1:07:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: help even at my in my old age for a young adult I am a young adult I feel like when I read your books it really just feels like going to sit at your bus friends kitchen table is kind of like the feeling that your books give which feel like rewatching your work also of course I had to have a change of plans for the book club but for anyone who doesn't know what change of plans is about what would you tell them change of plans is about a girl named Finley
• 1:08:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as the book begins, she kind of has her life laid out exactly as she thinks it's going to happen.
• 1:08:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: She has a boyfriend that she's very serious with it.
• 1:08:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're graduating.
• 1:08:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to spend most of the summer together and then they're going off to college together.
• 1:08:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's all organized and then of course what happens is what usually happens when we think we've got everything off.
• 1:08:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It all kind of blows up in her face and she having to go to a little lake town with her mom who she is not close with and doesn't know that well and ends up sort of discovering this whole other part of her family and her mother's history as well as in many ways her own.
• 1:08:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's it's again, it's the idea of kind of everything going off the rails and how that takes you to places you never would have expected, which sometimes end up being the ones where you were supposed to be all along.
• 1:08:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think one of the one of my favorite things about your books that feel very formative is that a lot of the times things will be exactly how you wanted them to be, but then they will be derailed by something.
• 1:09:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's made me quite that excited, but like a quite content with things having a big shift because I'm like, what is on the other side of that?
• 1:09:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: What cute boy is waiting for me on the other side of the journey.
• 1:09:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: like who am I going to meet what friendships will evolve from this and so I think that that's one of the big messages from this book but it's always I feel like your books have made me feel safe in doing that because there's there might be something fun on the other side of it Yeah and the big things you usually can't plan you know like we were talking about New York before and my best New York experiences have been completely by accident
• 1:09:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's going along and something happens and it's amazing and it's like this magical moment and everything if you try to coordinate that if you try to orchestrate it it never works and that's the way life is to like I'm going to have this great moment and I'm going to be sitting here when this is happening and it's it never works, you know, it's it's always when you can just let go and let things happen that the real magic comes.
• 1:09:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 1:09:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: What was the first idea that you had for this book?
• 1:10:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Did you know that this was like the next one you wanted to be published when you were writing?
• 1:10:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because you said you'd been writing this whole time.
• 1:10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this was the book that I was working on right after the rest of the story.
• 1:10:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: This was the one.
• 1:10:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I knew I kind of wanted to write a companion book to the rest of the story, which is also said at the lake.
• 1:10:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But not a lot of spoilers.
• 1:10:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd also always wanted to write about someone who's
• 1:10:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: relationship kind of falls apart and I'm it's probably giving things away, but you know finish relationship kind of as soon as the summer begins sort of explodes.
• 1:10:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we can we can give a spoiler warning because this is for our book club, so like a lot of them will have read it, but if anyone at this point has not read change of plans, there might be some light spoilers ahead.
• 1:10:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Listen at your own risk.
• 1:10:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, when I, the very beginning of my senior year of high school, my boyfriend, my first serious, serious boyfriend broke up with me.
• 1:10:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so so much of my senior year was just like finding myself just a sort of adrift and dealing with that.
• 1:11:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly finding myself, we had even been together for that long, but it just, he was just sort of everything, you know, and then suddenly I found myself, like,
• 1:11:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: dealing with this awful breakup, and having to see the same person every day at school and everything.
• 1:11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always wanted to write about something happening that would sort of throw somebody off like that way.
• 1:11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Especially with, you think about planning for the future, I think especially when you're young and you're in a relationship, you're like,
• 1:11:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You never break up, it'll always be like this, you know.
• 1:11:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:11:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: First few times that happens, it's just like getting the rug pulled out from under you.
• 1:11:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I knew I wanted to write about that.
• 1:11:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was funny because the pandemic happened.
• 1:11:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, well, this is very much the collog, the same thing.
• 1:11:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I had all these big plans for March and April of 2020.
• 1:11:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, whoops, I guess we're not doing that.
• 1:11:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I used to judge that this book was kind of like a pandemic novel without it being about the pandemic.
• 1:11:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of about when everything falls out from under you.
• 1:11:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was those two things sort of like figuring out who you are by yourself in many ways.
• 1:11:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then also just realizing that you can't chart your own path usually.
• 1:12:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can do the best you can.
• 1:12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can follow the signposts and you know, walk as hard as you want to in one direction.
• 1:12:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's certain points.
• 1:12:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Things are going to shift whether you like it or not.
• 1:12:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Did it take from, like, I guess, that initial idea a lot to, like, find Finley and who she was?
• 1:12:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think the hard part with Finley was her relationship with her mom.
• 1:12:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because her mom, you know, it's unusual that her mom kind of left when she was, I think she's four when her mom leaves three or four in her dad.
• 1:12:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was a single dad and then remarries and everything.
• 1:12:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we hear a lot about fathers kind of like leaving her, but it's more rare for a mom to opt out, you know, it's kind of
• 1:12:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I was really interested in how that would affect somebody and then also once that mother came back and like Finley's had like a week here in a week there and two weeks in the summer, but it's a very formal relationship, you know And just suddenly sort of been thrown into the situation with her mom where she's really getting to know her like what would that be like to get to know your mother at an eight as an 18 year old Not as it's whole personal history you have like I have with my daughter like you know knowing her as a baby knowing her as a toddler
• 1:13:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's this person that you don't really know that while that is kind of stranger, I mean, if one point finally says, you know, for someone who birthed me, it seems like I should have known or better.
• 1:13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You need to know your mom more when you're an adult.
• 1:13:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just love to that idea.
• 1:13:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I love so much like kind of juxtaposing that to what I know about you now, like your daughter being 18 and like
• 1:13:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know everything about her like or as much as as much as you can about a teenage girl but yeah to kind of flip that and kind of explore the mother side of that.
• 1:13:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if it was because I am an adult now reading your reading your new books but like I I felt so much more attached to the adults in this book.
• 1:13:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel they felt so lived in and full and I was like kind of wanting to like explore more of them and I think it was I think it's because I'm an adult because normally when I was reading
• 1:13:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: ship.
• 1:14:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know and I think it's the same with me like I because I'm more of an adult now.
• 1:14:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very interested in the adult characters like Liz who's one of the odds in this book.
• 1:14:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just love Liz so much love her.
• 1:14:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can read and hold the violence.
• 1:14:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:14:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:14:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like not what teenagers probably want to read.
• 1:14:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I did.
• 1:14:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I did.
• 1:14:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did.
• 1:14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted an immigration.
• 1:14:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the older I get, the more interesting the older characters are for me too.
• 1:14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think when you have women in your family, it's kind of fun to see where you come from.
• 1:14:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so much of the book is about the different stories that we have and the shared stories, but then there are always the things that people are going to see differently, and there are going to be differences opinions, even about X, that's just part of being a family is that people are always going to see things differently.
• 1:14:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Managing to stay together even with all of those differences of opinion is is a constant balancing act like that.
• 1:14:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a real fee, a real miracle most days because like I'm one of four kids and my I have four nieces and nephews and I'm reading about the ants and this I was like oh I want to be I don't want to be this ant that like feels like so disconnected from thinly that I was like it's really was guiding a lot of that that like which I'd never had from your books before which was like a fun cool new experience that like
• 1:15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking of myself in terms of like my niece becoming a teenager and like how I would interact with her and like how I would grow up with her and hopefully I would never end up in a situation where she had been disconnected from me for quite some time and it like really made me start thinking of this like she's about to turn three like thinking of her being like finley's age when she was disconnected from her mom and like her maternal figures and.
• 1:15:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: It just went on this new journey that it was so much fun to explore that side of your books.
• 1:15:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like on this other side of adulthood for me, so I really loved that.
• 1:15:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But being for the book club, of course, the name of this book is called Change of Plans.
• 1:15:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would circle anytime someone, any decision that they made felt like a change of plans from where we were going.
• 1:15:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was a constant and I loved that so much.
• 1:15:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the theme of the book is the name of the book, which felt quite fun.
• 1:16:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Was there something as you were writing this novel that like you plotted, you thought about, but as it started coming out as you started writing it, that it end up you changed your plans, that something happened and it wasn't necessarily what you had thought it was going to be and then doing something new?
• 1:16:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good question.
• 1:16:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think initially I was going to go a lot deeper with the family and sort of the, you know, I thought that there needed to be a lot more sort of generational trauma.
• 1:16:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was secrets in the family and everything.
• 1:16:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I realized that it wasn't that necessary to go super, super deep, you know, like, I think it really needed to be about family meeting this family where it was at the time.
• 1:16:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again, it was that very much of a balance because we have, you know, finally we have her mom cat and then her two sisters and this push and pull.
• 1:16:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I initially was going to do a lot more conflict within cat and her sisters.
• 1:16:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, realizing that the story was really more about finally and not and sort of trying to pull that balance back.
• 1:16:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of people in this book, you know, I are always start books being like, this is going to be the simple one.
• 1:17:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be like one person.
• 1:17:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I'm going to end up with all those people, you know, and it's just like shuffling and so that's often what changes is I have grand illusions of things I'm going to do like oh and then I'll do this and then and then you get to 300 pages and you haven't done that yet and it's like okay, come on because my books I know.
• 1:17:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: never know exactly what's going to happen.
• 1:17:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I always have a general I call it Miss Skeleton, so it's like I start like first scene climactic scene last scene, first line and that I wait till I have all of that before I start, then those things very much shift, do you know they're climactic scene, well sometimes end up being something totally different.
• 1:17:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, I need a plan, but again, I can't be too locked into the plan, and I have to be able to pursue other things off to the side.
• 1:17:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you never know.
• 1:17:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have to be able to change your plans.
• 1:17:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Health thematic to even your writing.
• 1:17:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is so interesting that you bring up about the characters, because there's so many characters on page that Finley connects with, but it, and it's not always surface-level connections.
• 1:17:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, she's really having these deep sort of relationships with side characters, with her family, with her mom, with her dad.
• 1:18:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it never feels
• 1:18:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: overwhelming to the reader to have this many people on the page.
• 1:18:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you kind of manage that as you're going along to make everyone feel necessary?
• 1:18:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because they really did.
• 1:18:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a really good question and a lot of it is good editing.
• 1:18:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Having an editor that is like, okay, you have a lot of people in this book and if you want them all to stay, we need to make each of the Munich, we need to have each of them like if they're going to be there, they're serving a particular
• 1:18:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: but they're there and you have to make each of them a real character, you know, you don't want to just have the friends and the boss or whatever, everybody needs to sort of stand on their own two feet and be their own character and fill some sort of role for the narrator.
• 1:18:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's really outlooking at, like, how is this person really affecting Finland?
• 1:18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, I always have these side characters that are so much fun, you know?
• 1:18:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was
• 1:18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've been what happened to goodbye.
• 1:18:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love Deb so much.
• 1:19:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to like my editor was like Deb is not the star of the story.
• 1:19:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's like she's the star of my story.
• 1:19:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love her.
• 1:19:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's the star of my story.
• 1:19:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love her.
• 1:19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can do all these great things.
• 1:19:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: The fun stuff with the side characters because they're not the narrator.
• 1:19:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the narrator needs to be the emphasis.
• 1:19:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: The narrator is the eyes that we see everything through.
• 1:19:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So everybody that the narrator is, you know, interacting with has to serve a purpose.
• 1:19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And
• 1:19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: have some ship with her that is going to further the book along.
• 1:19:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So again, I give props to editors.
• 1:19:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Kendra Levin, amazing editor.
• 1:19:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure this book would even have seen the light a day without Kendra because I was Joe Kendra's like, it was like working with a new trainer.
• 1:19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like she worked muscles.
• 1:19:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know.
• 1:19:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: which is what you need after you've been doing this for a second.
• 1:19:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so don't be hard on yourself if you're just writing right now and you're struggling with that, because that is often when you really need an outside opinion.
• 1:19:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you need someone to say, okay, x, y and z, you need to put them up, make them one person.
• 1:19:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you're so attached, things make them one character.
• 1:19:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're going to keep this person and you got to make them more different from this person and have them propel the story.
• 1:20:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes you just can't, you don't have that perspective.
• 1:20:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: as writers.
• 1:20:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Especially if you've worked on it and worked on it, you really need to let somebody else in.
• 1:20:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 1:20:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I will say that like craft wise, I feel like a lot of people learn from you that the way that you manage relationships and of course characters, that like as I was reading this, I was just thinking of like the craft of like who is this character and how do they represent Finlay and how do they help Finlay?
• 1:20:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I was kind of taking that back into my own work and being like, okay, well, I'm going to delete this character because you're kind of useless.
• 1:20:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You got to go.
• 1:20:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, you're moving out of town.
• 1:20:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's diving back into your work.
• 1:20:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, this is why I was right.
• 1:20:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I was, I was writing Sarah doesn't fanfiction as a teenager.
• 1:20:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like it was, it was, it was, and I think that it kind of started from fanfiction to like, I was then writing my own stories, but I was very clearly writing.
• 1:20:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: in your voice, so like what I felt like my teenage version of your voice was, and so kind of going back to that like original sort of like craft of yours.
• 1:20:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, this is why I fell in love with writing.
• 1:21:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is why I love to write.
• 1:21:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of reading your book while I am writing.
• 1:21:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay, this is quite fun, but coming back to your book, were you excited to include a spinnerbait reference?
• 1:21:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like were you like waiting to like pull the Sarah doesn't universe back into Finley's life?
• 1:21:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
• 1:21:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can like, it's honest.
• 1:21:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it looks like necessary at this point and there aren't as many.
• 1:21:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there are a couple for the rest of the story.
• 1:21:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you read the rest of the story, there's definitely mentions of spinnerbait is always going to be the forever through line for everything, you know, hate spinnerbait.
• 1:21:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I really started doing that because there was, you know, there's such an appetite for sequels in YA in particular, and all the way back to, you know, my second or third book, people were like, when is, are you going to write a sequel?
• 1:21:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: We want to know what happened.
• 1:21:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: We want to, and I, I just am not a sequel girl.
• 1:21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see myself doing that usually by the time I'm done with a book, I'm sick of it, and they're sick of me, and we're just ready to move on.
• 1:21:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I loved the idea of sort of because I grew up in my hometown and I still live here and so I know what it looks like for those paths to be crossing so yeah it was definitely fun to bring and it's also fun with the settings just to have like you know things to work with I mean I have my lake view which is you know my hometown and then I have the beach called me and now I have the lake so it's like I have these three settings so it's just able to use them all and know that there's this whole world out there to draw from.
• 1:22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: which I I love so much.
• 1:22:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the questions that our bestie asks her name is Lola and she asks how do you so perfectly capture how it feels to be young and unsure about what you want.
• 1:22:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I filled a lot of strong feelings when I was in high school and I think some of those still resonate.
• 1:22:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that hard for me to tap into that.
• 1:22:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that there's a way to there are certain universal things about the Alice and experience that you can carry with you, which is just and continue to be part of your life like dealing with your parents dealing with the people that you're attracted to or not attracted to friendships, you know, friendship breakups, which is like heartbreaking and.
• 1:23:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, all these different things, so, you know, even at my age, you can kind of look back, but you can also look around.
• 1:23:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of doing both.
• 1:23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I can put myself back into high school.
• 1:23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am able to remember because so much happened and it was such a really up and down point in my life that it's not hard to put myself back there.
• 1:23:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then I also have this benefit of all these years since where I can look around a draw material from that as well.
• 1:23:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really a mix of the two because I think we never really totally grow up.
• 1:23:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are certain
• 1:23:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because of life that we're always sort of going to be teenagers in some ways because the first time we dealt with certain situations, we were teenagers.
• 1:23:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's always this resonance from that.
• 1:23:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I always wonder about that.
• 1:23:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have an 18 year old and I look at her and I'm like, do I ever know what I'm doing here?
• 1:23:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I try to stick to what feels right.
• 1:23:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't do a lot of slang.
• 1:23:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't do a lot of pop culture references.
• 1:23:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like all of that stuff.
• 1:23:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really try to just stick with what's universal and whatever, you know, if I can.
• 1:23:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that you talk about that like you're always going to feel like a teenager because I think honestly that's probably the most unexpected part about being an adult is that I really felt like there was going to be like a huge separation from me and my teenage self but you talking about like so easily being able to like tap back into those feelings and like what was going on in your life there it makes me feel so like reassured to be like 33 and like still thinking about things that happened like 18 years ago and just being able to have like tap back into that feeling that
• 1:24:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're all just girls at the end of the day.
• 1:24:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're all just girls and it's like we're all those Russian nesting dolls, you know, like it's a little outside on that side.
• 1:24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, this is just where I am right now is where I am right now.
• 1:24:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then there'll be another layer of that eventually.
• 1:24:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we carry all of that with us.
• 1:24:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't leave it behind you.
• 1:24:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as much as it feels like all of that, you know, and that was years ago, all of it's still with you.
• 1:24:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're carrying it with you and it's all in there.
• 1:24:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can draw on it.
• 1:24:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I just have to dig deep a little bit.
• 1:24:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's speaking to that idea of like you said you don't want to use slang or really pop culture references.
• 1:24:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not really a spoiler to say that thinly throws her phone into the lake after this incident and like when it happened like my heart dropped into my stomach.
• 1:25:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But was that like an intentional move to take thinly maybe kind of back to the communication era of your earlier books to kind of move her into an analog life?
• 1:25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
• 1:25:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I see that more and more and a lot of fiction and also in movies and films and stuff that it's you can't write around phones, you know, it's really hard and to write around social media, if you're going to write about teens, you really have to include that, but it also it's.
• 1:25:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to have a book that was totally full of texts and messages and, you know, all that kind of thing.
• 1:25:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, for the really the best way to do it was to just take it out of the story altogether.
• 1:25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it does kind of put you back to a place which was the place I grew up were, you know, you didn't know where everybody was all the time.
• 1:25:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, you know, and in a sort of, I like the fact that I feel like,
• 1:25:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: When family arrives at the lake, she already is on the outside and then to be the only one that is sitting there when everyone else is on their phones and, you know, the text things and everything's flying over her and she's just kind of, you know, there and it also opens up this really nice pathway to her and Ben who's the boy who also doesn't have a phone.
• 1:26:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like,
• 1:26:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, two strangers on a deserted island.
• 1:26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's kind of, yeah, what's to talk to each other because you're the only ones there, you know, so it was just a lot of fun narratively, um, where it's books.
• 1:26:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, phones and books is not that fun narratively.
• 1:26:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it also creates a lot of problems in terms of like miscommunication or like missing the call and missing the moment.
• 1:26:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, we'll just text them.
• 1:26:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that feels like it immediately brings me back to Gilmore Girls where that scene where worries trying to page Dinge can't get in touch with him so she walks on to town and finds Jess and Jess is the one that helps her with the spring glare and that kind of vibe was immediately where I was thrown back to but I think it's such a good device to like okay let's let's bring this like pull this back like you're not having to worry about TikTok or like pulling in like texting slang from like your teenage daughter and like you're like okay this is
• 1:27:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's very trendy right now, honestly, to kind of fall back into like an analog feeling, to disconnect and be in the moment and get off your phone.
• 1:27:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm hearing that my daughter told me that there's some trend that's like, you have like what's called an analog bag, which is like a bag around with you that like has a book and a craft and you know, things that have nothing to do with screens.
• 1:27:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think
• 1:27:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: The kids are all right.
• 1:27:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think a lot of these kids there, the generation that has come up knowing nothing different and they're ready.
• 1:27:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them are a really ready to step back.
• 1:27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like this whole generation of kids that are switching to flip phones, you know, which I think is love to see people that just don't want to smart food.
• 1:27:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to, I want I need to be able to make calls, you know, but even texting, I mean, I'm old enough to remember texting with the keep at the team.
• 1:27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You really had to have something to say.
• 1:27:52
  [UNKNOWN]: If you were good.
• 1:27:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all the time we have was paying per text.
• 1:27:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I felt your pain per word.
• 1:27:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's something I love about it.
• 1:27:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you mentioned Ben, what is most important for you when you're creating a love interest for a fictional teenage girl or like honestly even
• 1:28:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: creating the wrong boy because we talked about Collin that, of course, this book is called Change of Plans and you meet him immediately and you're like, this boy that we're meeting immediately in a book called Change of Plans, he can't last long.
• 1:28:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's just no way.
• 1:28:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's no way he's making it past chapter 3.
• 1:28:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: That kind of vibe, but what is important, I guess, in the wrong guy and in the right guy.
• 1:28:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Why think in both cases, they just need to be appealing because even the wrong guys, the right guy for a little while or at least you think they are, you know, so there's that aspect of like the reader needs to fall in love with them a little bit too.
• 1:28:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's this early scene where thinly and Colin are doing this.
• 1:28:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: thing with the 50 states in the history class, or you really see him and how charismatic he is and everything.
• 1:28:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, with Ben, it's like, people keep asking me like, what is my favorite things?
• 1:28:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I love Ben's awkwardness, like I really liked writing.
• 1:28:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: The character that was super awkward, and then very much able to acknowledge their awkwardness, which I think just feels like a breath of fresh air, because we're all awkward.
• 1:29:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very awkward.
• 1:29:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: into how someone do like say something and then there be a beat and then they'll be like oh god that was so stupid Why did I just say that you know this sort of acknowledgement that we are all just figuring it out as we go But it's really like you need you need the character to fall in love with them that you need them and you need the reader to see the appeal so it's
• 1:29:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even in a book, my book Dreamland, which is like my darkest book that I was filled with.
• 1:29:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:29:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're just like, but even with Rajerson, who turned out to be the closest thing I have to villain in many ways, still had to, you know, had to make him appealing, had to make him charismatic, because why else would Caitlin fall for him in the first place?
• 1:29:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the thing, as you have to show what the appeal is, because it won't work if someone's a jerk right out of the gate, you know, because then it doesn't make any sense why you'd be with them.
• 1:29:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:29:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: When we, of course, like, as we're going to this book, like I knew that Colin couldn't be the guy because it was called Change of Plans.
• 1:29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when she goes to the woods, I'm like, okay, but two on a view.
• 1:30:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: As like, every time we met a guy, I was like, who is it?
• 1:30:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it was one of those things where it felt like a spotlight shined down in my imagination.
• 1:30:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: As Ben came up, I was like, you're the one.
• 1:30:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has to be you.
• 1:30:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he was just kind of awkward and I was like, and I love that.
• 1:30:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's something that's so there's a part of your books that like I, of course, kind of like fantasize out about as a teen, like getting a job and having these friends and meeting people and having this sort of found family and meeting the sky, like needing someone like Colin would really intimidate me.
• 1:30:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Someone who's really sure of himself, a very charismatic, and I sort of thinking about my teen self and I was like, but if I'm at Ben and he was like, sorry, I'm weird.
• 1:30:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would be like, oh my god.
• 1:30:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like because I was like, I need to, like thank you so much for saying that because I am also that way.
• 1:30:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like kind of like balancing that between like the expectation of what a quiet girl would like that maybe you might gravitate towards the charismatic guy because like we talked about before like it's that person that's kind of dragging you behind them.
• 1:30:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to Ben it's kind of like you get to stand right next to him and just be weird.
• 1:30:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she says at one point that like being with Collin was like being in a tornado.
• 1:31:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, even though there are people that are so charismatic, but there can only be one person like that in the relationship.
• 1:31:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're usually following along behind or you're, you know, playing the supporting role, you know, you're never going to kind of get out there to do your own thing.
• 1:31:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's always been attracted to like the quirky weird funny guy.
• 1:31:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it was never the captain of the football team.
• 1:31:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was never the most
• 1:31:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: had it guy in the school, it was always the weird out, you know, the Toronto shoes in home room and, you know, it was like whatever, you know, like that was much more interesting to me and remains much more interesting to me than sort of the perfect person or whatever.
• 1:31:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I like that what you do with the quote-unquote perfect person is you kind of break them down that they weren't perfect either, that as much as like being a teenage girl is quite hard, being a teenage boy is just as difficult.
• 1:31:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I like that we get this presentation of this character who seems perfect, who seems to know everything that he wants and where he's going in life, but he can't fall apart too, and I think that I love seeing that, because that is something that our mind or the teenage girls sometimes need is like they are going through a
• 1:32:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: past high school to see that and to, you know, back with the people you went to high school and they're like, oh my gosh, I was so insecure.
• 1:32:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was so, now you just make so many surface assumptions, especially when you're a teen, because they don't realize how much people are hiding, you know, you think like you're comparing your inside to their outside, as they say, you know, which is like all of your narratives and then you're looking at them and they're, they're great, you know.
• 1:32:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you find out later, everybody's fighting some battle.
• 1:32:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody.
• 1:32:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even the person that you think has the perfect life, that was where just listen came from.
• 1:32:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I saw a picture in a yearbook of these three beautiful girls, a candid shot they were sitting by a pool and immediately in my brain, I was like, those girls have the perfect life and then I thought, but I bet they don't.
• 1:32:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, so it's always like the presentation versus the reality.
• 1:32:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's always been really interesting to me as a writer.
• 1:32:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love seeing that as an adult now because like there's so many like life lessons that I would just like skipped past of course in your books But like now's an adult and like well Sarah doesn't try to teach me that like I could have learned it way back then Why did I have to go through the experience she was telling me then, but you kind of just have to you to and if you thought it was a lesson being taught you You wouldn't want it anyway.
• 1:33:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't want it.
• 1:33:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're so right as not as as a mom of a team girl I feel like you're like well
• 1:33:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: what's I teaching you?
• 1:33:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's really only.
• 1:33:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that if it seems like I'm trying to make a point, it's ghost.
• 1:33:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not, you know, it's like more have to like play the longer.
• 1:33:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:33:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you did.
• 1:33:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've got it now.
• 1:33:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm seeing.
• 1:33:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, good.
• 1:33:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Good.
• 1:33:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: That gives me help.
• 1:33:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of you talked about dreamland, one of the questions that someone asked is like, you've dealt with a lot of really heavy topics.
• 1:33:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like,
• 1:33:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: speaking to dream lands, speaking to jessless in, but in other ones it's a much less intense transition.
• 1:33:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I would say change of plans versus jessless in the transition that they're going through and the things that they're dealing with, especially dream land are quite different.
• 1:33:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you approach telling those stories to teen girls directly?
• 1:33:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because like dream lands one of those books at I read as a teen and then I reread it as an adult and like I hadn't forgotten a single thing about it.
• 1:33:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: that it just stayed with me.
• 1:34:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we're talking about lessons, that one really taught me one about who to invest your time in, but how do you approach things like that knowing you're writing for teen girls?
• 1:34:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, there is a certain amount of darkness in everything.
• 1:34:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's been a while since I've written, I think saying anything was the last book I wrote that had sort of a dark through line to it.
• 1:34:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because writing later books is fun in some ways because you're being bogged down into, unlike I said this book, originally had a lot more darkness in it just in terms of the family backstory and sort of the family generational trauma and everything.
• 1:34:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I decided to pull back on that because there was already so much going on.
• 1:34:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a certain responsibility for sure, you know, and especially with a book like Dreamland, which, you know, has a domestic violence thing.
• 1:34:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And after that book came out still, that I heard from a lot of people that were like confessing things to me and telling me certain situations that they had been in.
• 1:34:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's still like almost a code word when people come through my mind and say, you know, Dreamland really affected me.
• 1:35:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dreamland is, and I know exactly what they're saying.
• 1:35:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh wait, that's gonna make me cry.
• 1:35:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it just happened to me when I was at this bookseller thing.
• 1:35:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody, you know, puts their hand on mine and says, Dreamland, and I'm like, I hear you.
• 1:35:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just listen to an extent as well.
• 1:35:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's writing about these hard things.
• 1:35:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: There, it's a great responsibility because again, for some of these teenagers, you know, they haven't read something where they've seen this.
• 1:35:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: They haven't had somebody tell them about these things.
• 1:35:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: In a book, you know, they pick
• 1:35:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: book and they read something.
• 1:35:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, oh my god, it isn't just me.
• 1:35:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're stealing with us.
• 1:35:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this isn't just happening to me.
• 1:35:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: This has happened to other people, you know?
• 1:35:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that I feel like this.
• 1:35:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay that, you know, this scares me because it's scared this person too.
• 1:35:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you do have a responsibility, you know, to handle things.
• 1:35:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think in books to sort of show if not a happy ending like a resolution or some hope to a situation.
• 1:35:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like books when you finish and you're just completely depressed.
• 1:35:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You should leave people with it.
• 1:35:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: They put all this time and read in the book like, let them leave a little bit of
• 1:35:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I think it is that responsibility that knowing that your story may be the first one that somebody reads about this particular topic that you want to make sure that you're responsible about it and, you know, present it in a way that, you know, they can emphasize with, but also, you know, feel good about by the time it's over.
• 1:36:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that I feel like in some of those situations like justice has been served, but there's a resolution of heart if not hope by the end of it, which I would say is so true of those books, but I don't know what it says about me as a teen, but like I loved reading those.
• 1:36:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I loved, I've always loved really high drama, and I've loved like really deep feelings, and I love, because I remember like I would get anything that I could find about interviews that you had done at the time talking about writing,
• 1:36:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember you talking about just listening and seeing those three sisters.
• 1:36:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: But to that same idea, I immediately thought of those three sisters when I met the three ants in a change of plans, because I was like, oh my gosh, it's those sisters, but now they're older.
• 1:36:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're like kind of exploring them in the background of Finley's story.
• 1:37:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And
• 1:37:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I really loved them and it was just they played such a pivotal role in her life and like you said like you had to pull back on the family drama and like the relationships between them because ultimately it's thinly story and how maybe like their backstory is not really going to impact her.
• 1:37:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's going to hear them fighting about it in the other room but it's not ultimately going to affect her path.
• 1:37:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Would you ever consider writing and adult romance?
• 1:37:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm for years there back because the beginning I was writing one YA book and then one contemporary but there just wasn't a whole lot of interest in the contemporary one because the YA was doing so well and that's what people wanted but I would love to I have this I have a book coming out next summer and then the summer after that but I would really like to write about something a little bit past high school.
• 1:37:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I actually have a whole book done that is whole girls and it's set partially in high school.
• 1:37:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a big bridge between the tier because they become friends in high school and then it is happening in their 20s.
• 1:37:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I'm going to turn my attention to after these next two books because I really, I worth it like a while ago, but I think it, it,
• 1:38:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of covers a lot of things that have happened since high school will be becoming a mom and trying to get pregnant and early relationships and work stuff and things that you can't necessarily cover.
• 1:38:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, really devastating breakups that are different from high school breakups.
• 1:38:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's sort of waiting for me after these next two books.
• 1:38:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't wait.
• 1:38:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be really fun.
• 1:38:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to leave my teen raiders behind but I think it might be fun to write about something a little different.
• 1:38:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I cannot tell you the amount of people that are ecstatic that because like I feel like that's what I've been talking about for the last few years with my friends is like when Sarah doesn't gonna write a book for us like now that we're older now that her readers are us like adult women
• 1:38:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: that I didn't know if like you were like against it, if you wanted to stay in YA, like I felt my heart stopped like I'm so excited because I feel like you honestly raised like Emily Henry readers, like people who love her books now, but I think that all of your readers would absolutely love it.
• 1:39:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the questions was, is there a world in which you revisit a story from a high school couple who are now adults?
• 1:39:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, I don't know.
• 1:39:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of, I think I would want it to be brand new.
• 1:39:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure I could.
• 1:39:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like I have brought them in in the past, into other books, you know, Remi and Dexter pop up and just listen.
• 1:39:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know if I'd want to, that's a lot of continuity.
• 1:39:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it would be fun to sort of, especially if I'm just doing the adult, like I'm just writing contemporary, I think I would want to first start without.
• 1:39:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 1:39:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It would be really fun, and your lips to God's ears because I would love to do something different, but I think it's always been like, well, this is what you do, but I think, you know, I kind of got my hands full with these next two books, but then after work, it would be really fun to, and I do, I have this book, and I've written a lot of books and put them in the closet, you know, a lot of books don't work, I think that's the one that I'll come back to for sure.
• 1:39:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, no.
• 1:39:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've I have been wanting this for so long.
• 1:39:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like kind of even like hesitant to ask because I was like I don't want to I don't put any like sort of pressure on her, but like I know that you were talking about nervous about coming back to publishing Re-releasing or not re-releasing but releasing another book with the readers be there and I like you say my lips took out to you But like giving me God's phone number because like I will tell them that like it's time for is there a dozen adult novel because I know that so many of the girls
• 1:40:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: or a women who wrote in to tell you all of the beautiful things about how much you impacted their lives.
• 1:40:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're still readers, they're still fan girls, and I know that they would show up right there alongside you for that.
• 1:40:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm first in line waiting for that book, but I'm also first in line waiting for all of your books.
• 1:40:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: for change of plans for your next books.
• 1:40:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm excited.
• 1:40:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's also a kind of thing that I've learned maybe I can't plan.
• 1:40:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I have this book and I feel like the universe will put somebody in front of me who is the person that is meant to help me get that book out to the world.
• 1:40:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just haven't met them yet.
• 1:40:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so when you let that go on, often the less I have to do with things, the better they work out.
• 1:40:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like an animal thing like take your sticky little fingers off the controls, you know, and just kind of see what you have.
• 1:41:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, hopefully the controls are someone who can can make that happen.
• 1:41:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to push that out into the world.
• 1:41:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be the real that I.
• 1:41:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: tag all of the adult publishing like imprints to have you for because I just I think that people would love that so much.
• 1:41:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that you're the exact writer to write that story now that I just really feel like those of us who grew up with you that maybe maybe there's a story for us now.
• 1:41:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: fingers crossed it all works out but again maybe a little change of plans is all is all we need.
• 1:41:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you did mention that there is a book that you're going to do two more books like two more summer books in the next two years.
• 1:41:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 1:41:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So a book a year said this one and then 2027, 2028.
• 1:41:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So no, it's a pretty rigorous schedule.
• 1:41:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've never had three books out in three years before.
• 1:41:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll start with the rifle.
• 1:41:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what's going to ask you, because you've kind of had some space, like, time to let them cook, kind of time to have time to have all these been, like, other year, kind of gal.
• 1:42:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:42:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I've never been trying to have never been on a deadline with a book at the same time that I'm promoting a book, like, normally, okay, this would be all that I'm doing.
• 1:42:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like just,
• 1:42:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be all change of plans all the time, but I also have this other book that I'm trying to edit because it's such an accelerated schedule.
• 1:42:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: If it's going to come out next summer, we need to sort of have it ready to go by July.
• 1:42:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: July's not that far away.
• 1:42:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, it is.
• 1:42:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's compartmentalizing.
• 1:42:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually been good for me because I can't freak out too hard about the book release because I'm already, you know, I'm having to write at the same time.
• 1:42:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I really can't do both like when I'm on tour, I can't be writing.
• 1:42:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's going to, it's just going to have to
• 1:42:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just finding the balance, the clean the two.
• 1:42:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: My whole life is just trying to find balance with mixed results, you know.
• 1:42:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it feels like such a big time for you like your book.
• 1:42:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: As of the airing of this episode, your book came out yesterday.
• 1:42:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're working on a new book now and your daughters about to graduate and go off to college.
• 1:42:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like you're in your own sort of thinly experience right now.
• 1:42:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a change of plans ahead, I'm sure.
• 1:43:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you plan to head and, you know, there was a lot of change of plans that got me here.
• 1:43:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if there's one thing I've learned is that I don't know anything.
• 1:43:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's really good.
• 1:43:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's really then to the day.
• 1:43:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's take away.
• 1:43:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, might as well not stress out about it too much because I don't know what's going to happen.
• 1:43:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 1:43:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the last question I have for you that I ask every author is, what is a book that you would recommend for Gomorgall's fans?
• 1:43:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: For you, I think that I would love for you to recommend maybe one of your older books for Gomorgall's fans, and then maybe just a book that you've been loving lately.
• 1:43:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would recommend what happened to goodbye because that is another sort of found family one and there is sort of a restaurant aspect, but there's also sort of a nice little family dynamic with the girl and her dad and sort of refining her mom and everything and I don't know I just have a real soft space for that for that book and particularly yeah that's the one I used to write fan fiction about
• 1:43:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just kind of, I kind of love that it's got, you know, and it's at this whole, that's where Dev is, you know, my character Dev that I love.
• 1:44:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, I think that would be kind of fun.
• 1:44:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it also has the return of Jason Talbot, which is sort of this arc we were talking earlier about people that in high school you thought we're going to be one thing in a note being something totally else, you know, Jason is definitely a part of that in this book.
• 1:44:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's the one that that I would suggest.
• 1:44:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: off the top of my head and then he's far as a book that I would recommend right now.
• 1:44:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just finished Emma Straub's American Fantasy which is so fun and it's about this woman who it's not YA but it's about this woman who ends up for various reasons going on a
• 1:44:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: cruise a boy band cruise for a band that she was really into and she was in high school now she's older there older what they do these cruises for their hardcore fans and she's supposed to go with her sister and her sister has to drop out so she goes by herself and it's just like this wonderful mash-up of like
• 1:44:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: 90s boy band and cruising and just I mean, it's just it's just so fun.
• 1:45:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen so many good things about that.
• 1:45:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you recommending it.
• 1:45:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely going to put it on my TBR.
• 1:45:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure our listeners will too.
• 1:45:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: All of your books, but none more so than change of plans.
• 1:45:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited for people to read this.
• 1:45:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited for your older readers to dive back in and for you to find new readers with this one.
• 1:45:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:45:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is like the highlight of
• 1:45:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly of like my 16-year-old self, it's the highlight of her life to get to talk to you today.
• 1:45:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: This was so fun!
• 1:45:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me!
• 1:45:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was really fun!
• 1:45:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: My book-loving besties, thank you so much for joining me for another episode of Gilmour to Read.
• 1:45:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to join the book club conversation, head over to Patreon where you can join for free.
• 1:45:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: In May, where you read all of all of it is reading Crying and H. Mark by Michelle Zoner, a memoir from a Korean American musician, about her relationship with her mother, and reading a sexy is, of course, reading change of plans by Sarah Dassen.
• 1:45:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: My next guest on Gilmour to Read will be Lori Gilmour, but until then, Happy Reading Friends!