Latest / The Burros of Berea Podcast / Episode 311- Prophet of Fire- Part 3

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Episode 311- Prophet of Fire- Part 3 · The Burros of Berea Podcast

• 0:08
  In our last episode, we traced David Koresh's
• 0:12
  meteoric rise within the Branch Divideon sect.
• 0:15
  We covered his early theological claims, the
• 0:18
  power struggle with George Rodin, and his eventual
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  establishment as the prophet of Mount Carmel.
• 0:25
  We began to see how he molded scripture to justify
• 0:28
  absolute authority, how he presented himself
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  not merely as a teacher, but as the Lamb of Revelation
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  itself. In today's episode, We go behind the
• 0:38
  walls of Mount Carmel from 1990 to the moment
• 0:41
  of their first deadly encounter with federal
• 0:43
  agents in 1993. We'll hear the voices of survivors,
• 0:47
  former followers and law enforcement, alongside
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  a psychological breakdown of courageous control
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  tactics using Stephen Hassan's bite model. How
• 0:56
  did everyday believers surrender their autonomy?
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  Why did no one leave when things got dark? And
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  what exactly made Mount Carmel a powder keg waiting
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  to explode? I'm Rick Welch and this is Prophet
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  of Fire. By 1990, the compound at Mount Carmel
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  wasn't just a home, it was a world unto itself.
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  Nestled just 13 miles outside Waco, Texas, the
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  isolated property housed more than 100 followers,
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  men, women, and children, devoted to one man
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  they believed to be God's appointed messenger.
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  Days began before dawn. Followers awoke to prayer,
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  scripture reading, and lectures from Quresh.
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  Meals were communal. Chores were assigned. Firearm
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  maintenance and inventory were frequent responsibilities
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  for the men, especially after Koresh began stockpiling
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  weapons and selling parts of gun shows. The rhythm
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  of life was controlled and not just spiritually.
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  Koresh dictated sleep schedules, sexual relationships,
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  even parenthood. Women were told they could only
• 1:59
  bear Koresh's children and men were celibate
• 2:02
  unless Koresh granted them permission. Branch
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  Davidian survivor David Thibodeau says, quote,
• 2:08
  We were being molded. Everything we did, even
• 2:12
  how long we prayed, was directed. I didn't even
• 2:15
  realize it at the time, but I was losing my ability
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  to think for myself. End quote. Koresh referred
• 2:21
  to this process as dying to the flesh. Members
• 2:25
  interpreted it as purification. In reality, it
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  was obedience training. Some who joined were
• 2:31
  idealists. others survivors of trauma. Many were
• 2:35
  recruited through end times Bible studies that
• 2:37
  Koresh led across the US, the UK, and even Australia.
• 2:41
  Once invited to Mount Carmel, the outside world
• 2:44
  fell away. Branch Davidian survivor Sheila Martin
• 2:47
  says, quote, We thought we were chosen. That's
• 2:51
  what David said, that God brought us there. So
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  when we cut off contact with our families, it
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  wasn't a loss, it was a sacrifice, end quote.
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  Quresh created a vocabulary that kept members
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  dependent. He was the lamb, the one who alone
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  could interpret the seven seals. The rest of
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  the world was Babylon. Leaving Mount Carmel meant
• 3:12
  losing salvation. Doubt meant rebellion against
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  God. Steve Hassan's Byte model outlines how cult
• 3:19
  leaders maintain authoritarian control by systematically
• 3:22
  breaking down an individual's autonomy. The first
• 3:25
  pillar is behavior control, the regulation of
• 3:28
  a person's physical reality. At Mount Carmel,
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  this was absolute. Followers handed over their
• 3:34
  money, possessions, even their children. Koresh
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  assigned living quarters, work duties, and oversaw
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  all resources. Meals were rationed. Dress was
• 3:44
  modest. There were no holidays, no vacations,
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  no TV. Time was a tool of submission. Branch
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  Davidian survivor Clive Doyle says, quote, We
• 3:55
  lived by David's clock. There wasn't a minute
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  in the day that wasn't in some way serving the
• 4:00
  message or preparing for the seals to open."
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  Another survivor, David Thibodeau, says, "...you
• 4:07
  couldn't just take a walk. You couldn't skip
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  a service. If you were sick, you prayed it out.
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  Even your thoughts weren't your own after a while."
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  Marriages were dissolved. Koresh claimed exclusive
• 4:20
  spiritual and sexual access to the women. Men
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  were required to remain celibate including husbands
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  whose wives now belong to the House of David.
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  A Branch Davidian former member, Kiri Jules,
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  said, quote, He told my father that God had chosen
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  me for his purpose. I was 10 years old, end quote.
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  Kiri's father, a devoted follower, allowed it.
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  She later testified before Congress about being
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  sexually abused by Koresh. These weren't just
• 4:49
  religious practices. They were structures of
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  domination. and they were justified through one
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  man's interpretation of scripture. The second
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  pillar in the Byte model is information control.
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  This includes restricting access to outside ideas,
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  manipulating what members hear, and creating
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  an us -versus -them mentality. Inside Mount Carmel,
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  Quresh was the only source of truth. His sermons
• 5:12
  replaced news. His biblical interpretations were
• 5:15
  treated as prophecy. Information from the outside
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  was filtered, if not eliminated entirely. Former
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  Branch Davidian member Dana Okimoto says, quote,
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  There were no newspapers, no radio. If something
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  happened in the world, David told us what it
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  meant. End quote. Another former member, Sheila
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  Martin says, quote, TV was the devil's voice.
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  That's what he said. He told us the government
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  and media were under Satan's control. So we didn't
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  trust anyone but him. End quote. Those who expressed
• 5:48
  doubt were labeled spiritually weak. Members
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  were encouraged to report on each other's questioning.
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  Surveillance, both overt and subtle, created
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  fear, even among families. Former member and
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  survivor David Thibodeau also says, quote, The
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  community became an echo chamber. Alternative
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  perspectives vanished. In time, Koresh's interpretation
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  of the world became the only version of reality
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  that mattered. The third pillar of the Byte model
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  is thought control, shaping what members are
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  allowed to think, believe, and imagine. At Mount
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  Carmel, Koresh didn't just ask for belief, he
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  demanded surrender of the mind. Koresh claimed
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  that God had given him the ability to interpret
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  scripture in ways no one else could. He called
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  it the New Light. Any disagreement wasn't just
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  dissent, it was rebellion against God. Survivor
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  Clive Doyle says, quote, If someone raised a
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  question, David would stop the study and say,
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  that's the voice of Satan speaking. You learned
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  to silence those thoughts real quick, end quote.
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  Koresh used loaded language, terms that had deep
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  meaning inside the group, but sounded harmless
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  outside. Words like seals, Babylon, the bride
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  and spiritual wife created a worldview unique
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  to the compound. Survivor David Thibodeau says,
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  To combat doubt, Caresh used thought -stopping
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  techniques. Followers were instructed to pray,
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  quote scripture, or repeat key phrases when fear
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  or skepticism crept in. Survivor Sheila Martin
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  says, quote, He said the devil attacks the mind
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  first, so you just block the thought." This mental
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  conditioning created reflexive obedience. Followers
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  became unable or unwilling to challenge anything
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  Koresh said, no matter how extreme. The final
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  piece of the bite model is emotional control,
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  manipulating feelings to produce guilt, fear,
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  loyalty, or euphoria. Koresh was a master of
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  this. Followers were made to feel unworthy without
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  him. Their identity, their salvation, even their
• 8:16
  family relationships were tied to their devotion
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  to Quresh. Former member Dana Okimoto says, quote,
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  I was told if I left, I'd be destroyed in the
• 8:25
  fire. My children too. That's how deep the fear
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  went. Quresh weaponized guilt. He reminded members
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  constantly of their sinfulness, especially those
• 8:34
  who had doubts. Confessions were made public.
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  Mistakes were tied to spiritual warfare. Kiri
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  Jules says, quote, he'd say we were chosen, but
• 8:44
  not worthy. that God was watching, that the end
• 8:47
  was close, and only the obedient would be saved."
• 8:52
  Fear of outsiders, of the government, of Satan,
• 8:55
  of spiritual death kept people inside. But Quresh
• 8:59
  didn't only use fear. He gave his followers moments
• 9:02
  of elation too, promising redemption, divine
• 9:05
  favor, and a place at God's side in the final
• 9:07
  battle. David Thibodeau remembers, quote, Sometimes
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  he'd get this look in his eyes and say, you're
• 9:14
  going to see the face of God, and you'd believe
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  it. Those moments he made you feel like you were
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  part of something eternal." Together, these four
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  pillars of control, behavior, information, thought,
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  and emotion, formed a total system of domination,
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  one that was invisible to those inside, one that
• 9:34
  transformed skepticism into faith, and faith
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  into unquestioning obedience. And it's under
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  this system that life continued inside Mount
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  Carmel, until early 1993, when the first signs
• 9:45
  of outside intervention finally arrived. By 1992,
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  Mount Carmel was operating under the surface
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  radar of Texas society, but the veil was beginning
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  to lift. Former members were coming forward.
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  Reports of child abuse and forced marriages began
• 10:00
  circulating. Neighbors complained about gunfire
• 10:03
  from the property. Rumors of illegal weapons
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  stockpiling made their way to law enforcement.
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  In June 1992, Former Branch Davidian Mark Brealt
• 10:11
  began actively warning others about Koresh, including
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  Australian families whose children had joined
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  the sect. Brealt reached out to authorities and
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  media. His detailed reports became crucial evidence
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  in the case building against Koresh. Around the
• 10:25
  same time, Kiri Joule's mother took legal action,
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  alleging Koresh had molested her daughter. Her
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  sworn statements were forwarded to federal investigators.
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  The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms,
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  or ATF, began an investigation in July 1992.
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  Surveillance of Mount Carmel increased. Agents
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  learned of Koresh's weapons business, which involved
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  mail -order gun parts and a large cache of semi
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  -automatic rifles. In a request for a search
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  warrant, the ATF claimed Koresh's group possessed
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  illegal machine guns and grenades. A plan was
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  drafted to serve warrants and arrest Koresh on
• 11:00
  federal weapons charges. But the Branch Davidians
• 11:03
  were already expecting confrontation. Koresh
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  had long prophesied that Babylon, his term for
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  the US government, would come for them. In fact,
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  he believed it would mark the opening of the
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  fifth seal in the Book of Revelation. Survivor
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  David Thibodeau remembers, quote, Despite opportunities
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  for negotiation. the ATF opted for a show of
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  force. On the morning of February 28, 1993, two
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  cattle trailers full of armed federal agents
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  approached the Mount Carmel compound under the
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  pretense of delivering a warrant. Agents later
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  said they believed the Davidians would surrender
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  peacefully. But when the first shots rang out,
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  whether from inside the compound or from the
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  ATF's side remains debated. A firefight erupted.
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  Four agents were killed. Six branch Davidians
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  died. Dozens more were injured. The siege had
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  begun. What followed was a 51 -day standoff.
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  The FBI moved in. Negotiators made contact. Media
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  from around the world descended on Waco. And
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  inside Mount Carmel, over 80 men, women, and
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  children waited, trapped in a theology of fear,
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  obedience, and prophecy. The events that unfolded
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  over the next seven weeks would raise global
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  questions about law enforcement overreach, religious
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  freedom, and the very nature of belief. It would
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  end in flames. But that inferno began here, with
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  a prophet, a compound, and the system of control
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  he used to keep it all together. In our next
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  episode, we take you inside the 51 -Day Siege,
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  day by day. We'll hear the actual FBI negotiation
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  tapes, analyze the tactics used by both sides,
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  and reveal how spiritual conviction and government
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  miscalculation collide in one of the most controversial
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  law enforcement operations in U .S. history.
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  I'm Rick Welch, and this is Prophet of Fire.