Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Paracetamol, Autism and ADHD: What the Latest Research Really Says

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Paracetamol, Autism and ADHD: What the Latest Research Really Says · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Oh boy, do we have a doozy for you on
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  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast today. It's a doctor's desk episode,
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  Speaker 1: and we are so glad to have you along. Just
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  Speaker 1: a heads up, science is not about telling us what
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  Speaker 1: we want to hear, nor is science about helping us
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  Speaker 1: to necessarily feel comfortable. It's about answering questions, and sometimes
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  Speaker 1: those questions are hard to answer. Today, we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: some very difficult questions, including one of the most controversial
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  Speaker 1: things that have been said in the last couple of
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  Speaker 1: years by a US president, President Trump. said that there
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  Speaker 1: is a relationship between autism diagnosis and the use of acetaminophen,
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  Speaker 1: otherwise known as paracetamol. There has been a brand new
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  Speaker 1: study published that looks into whether he could be right
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  Speaker 1: or wrong. We're going to talk about that shortly, as
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  Speaker 1: well as something called heteropessimism. We're also looking at whether
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  Speaker 1: or not men talk less or women talk less during
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  Speaker 1: multitasking and more. Like I said, provocative, controversial topics. but
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  Speaker 1: all in the name of science so that we can
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  Speaker 1: actually live better lives and help our families to do
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  Speaker 1: better and flourish and thrive. Stay with us. We're going
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  Speaker 1: to answer that more next on the Happy Families podcast. Hello,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: welcome to a controversial episode of the Happy Families podcast.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast is where you get real parenting solutions
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: every single day. So let's download a parenting podcast in
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  Speaker 1: Australia where Justin and Kylie Coulson, the parents of six daughters,
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  Speaker 1: And Kylie, you're going to sort of guide me through this.
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  Speaker 1: And I haven't told you about any of these studies
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  Speaker 1: other than those quick headlines. I want to start today's pod, though,
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  Speaker 1: by highlighting the following. Science isn't about convenience. And when
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  Speaker 1: somebody says something that's empirically testable, we need to be
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  Speaker 1: able to go out and empirically test it. So, for example,
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  Speaker 1: when Donald Trump says.
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  Speaker 2: Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that the
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  Speaker 2: use of.
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  Speaker 2: Well, let's see how we say that. Acetaminophen, acetaminophen, is
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  Speaker 2: that okay? Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol during
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  Speaker 2: pregnancy can be associated with a very increased risk of autism.
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  Speaker 2: So taking Tylenol is not good.
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  Speaker 1: The taking paracetamol during pregnancy may be associated with your
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  Speaker 1: child's ADHD or autism risk. Most people scream and shout
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  Speaker 1: and jump up and down, but this is an empirical,
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  Speaker 1: testable statement. We can actually go and look at data
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  Speaker 1: and find out if he's right or not. And as
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  Speaker 1: ludicrous as it might sound, I actually think that there's
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  Speaker 1: value in going and doing the studies and finding out,
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  Speaker 1: regardless of whether you like the guy or not. Because
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  Speaker 1: if somebody who was more credible said it, then perhaps
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  Speaker 1: people would take it more seriously. So a few of
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  Speaker 1: the things we're talking about today are actually really challenging topics,
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  Speaker 1: and they are the kinds of things that can upset people.
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  Speaker 1: But we're going to do it anyway, not because we're
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  Speaker 1: trying to upset people, but because these are studies that
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  Speaker 1: are being done with people asking reasonable questions, even if
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  Speaker 1: we don't think they're reasonable people, about why life is
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  Speaker 1: the way that it is.
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  Speaker 3: So our first article today that you wanted to talk
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  Speaker 3: about is men talk less than women when multitasking. And
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  Speaker 3: you're laughing. Yeah. But this is men are from Mars,
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  Speaker 3: women are from Venus stuff.
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  Speaker 1: I kind of thought we should start with the light
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  Speaker 1: one first. Oh, by the way, we're doing four in
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  Speaker 1: the doctor's desk episode where we normally only do one.
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  Speaker 1: So we've only got two minutes for each one, which
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  Speaker 1: means that we can't kind of get caught up in
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  Speaker 1: all the provocation and controversy. So this is a study
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  Speaker 1: that was published in Psychological Research just a little while ago,
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  Speaker 1: a couple of months ago. And I don't know how
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  Speaker 1: to pronounce the researchers' names. So I'm just going to
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  Speaker 1: tell you what the study was and what they found.
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  Speaker 1: And then you can ask me questions or we can
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  Speaker 1: move on to the next one. So contrary to the
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  Speaker 1: widespread stereotype that women are better at multitasking than men,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, everyone jokes about that, right? I mean, can
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  Speaker 1: I do one thing at a time? There have not
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  Speaker 1: been any consistent gender differences in multitasking abilities found between
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  Speaker 1: males and females.
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  Speaker 3: Thus far.
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  Speaker 1: So these researchers developed this really novel multitasking paradigm that
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  Speaker 1: consisted of five tasks that were designed to simulate real
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  Speaker 1: life scenarios where a person might be expected to multitask.
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  Speaker 1: First study, 41 men, 37 females, the multitaskers, all performed
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  Speaker 1: similarly in all the tasks except a conversation task, which
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  Speaker 1: males ignored more than twice as much as females. And
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  Speaker 1: then to figure out whether or not that gender difference
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  Speaker 1: was noticeable to others, they did a second study with
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  Speaker 1: 160 people observing, not aware of what's going on, watching
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  Speaker 1: videos of the multitaskers, rating their appearance. Females were rated
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  Speaker 1: as being more in control of the task. They were
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  Speaker 1: rated as performing better and they were rated as being
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  Speaker 1: less stressed than males. Importantly, these ratings were strongly influenced
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  Speaker 1: by the conversation task performance. Therefore, Kylie, this study showed
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  Speaker 1: not only a sex difference in multitasking performance, but also
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  Speaker 1: that this difference impacts how multitaskers are perceived by others,
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  Speaker 1: providing a potential explanation for the development of a stereotype
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  Speaker 1: that women are better at multitasking than men, because men,
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  Speaker 1: when they're asked to multitask, stop talking and just concentrate
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  Speaker 1: on the task, whereas women are able to keep on
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  Speaker 1: talking while they're doing the other thing.
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  Speaker 3: This feels like a bit of a no-brainer.
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  Speaker 1: I can't believe you said that.
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  Speaker 3: No, no, no. Just like I said, men are from
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  Speaker 3: Mars and women are from Venus. There's been this ongoing
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  Speaker 3: dialogue around the fact that women talk more than men,
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  Speaker 3: for starters, right? But secondly, to me, this is all
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  Speaker 3: about relationship. And for women, everything we do is about relationship.
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  Speaker 3: And so the dialogue and the conversation that takes place
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  Speaker 3: is part of the relationship. Well, let's get straight into
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  Speaker 3: the next one. This is Donald Trump's big revelation.
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  Speaker 2: Acetaminophen, which is basically commonly known as Tylenol during pregnancy
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  Speaker 2: can be associated with a very increased risk of autism.
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  Speaker 1: So I was incensed when I heard him say this.
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  Speaker 1: I don't like the man at all. I don't believe
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  Speaker 1: that anyone is either good or bad. People are a
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  Speaker 1: bit of everything. And I know that some people who
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  Speaker 1: listen to the podcast love the guy and some people
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  Speaker 1: who listen to the podcast absolutely can't stand the guy.
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  Speaker 1: When I heard him say that parents, mom's taking paracetamol
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  Speaker 1: while they're pregnant is what's causing ADHD and autism. I
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  Speaker 1: actually went off my tree. I was talking to some friends.
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  Speaker 1: I completely lost my Nana. I don't know. Is it
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  Speaker 1: lost my Nana? Is that what I'm supposed to say?
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  Speaker 1: I lost my Nana. And the friend that I was
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  Speaker 1: talking to said, well, hang on a sec. This is
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  Speaker 1: a testable hypothesis. Like instead of, Letting your personal feelings
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  Speaker 1: about the character of the man influence your opinion of
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  Speaker 1: what he said. Why don't you go and have a
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  Speaker 1: look at what the research says? And I said, well, Chris,
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  Speaker 1: there isn't any research on this. Turns out there is.
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  Speaker 1: There was a study that was recently conducted in Hong Kong.
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  Speaker 1: It was published in the JAMA Internal Medicine Women's Health section.
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  Speaker 1: It's called Prenatal Acetaminophen or Paracetamol Use and the Risk
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  Speaker 1: of Autism. and or ADHD deficit hyperactivity disorder among sibling
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  Speaker 1: matched cohorts. Essentially what they're trying to do is answer
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  Speaker 1: the question, does prenatal exposure to paracetamol increase the risk
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  Speaker 1: of autism spectrum disorder or ADHD in offspring after accounting
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  Speaker 1: for what could be happening in the family? So essentially
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  Speaker 1: looking at genetic effects. They had an initial cohort of
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  Speaker 1: 708,000 mother-child pairs in Hong Kong and about 43% had
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  Speaker 1: prenatal paracetamol. exposure. They had a sibling matched cohort of
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  Speaker 1: 124,000 kids who were assessed for ASD and 100,000 for ADHD.
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  Speaker 1: And what they basically found was that prenatal paracetamol exposure
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  Speaker 1: was not associated with an increased risk of either ASD
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  Speaker 1: or ADHD. And these findings were consistent across paracetamol exposure
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  Speaker 1: timing pattern and dose. In short, they found I think
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  Speaker 1: something reasonably reassuring regarding the safety of paracetamol use during pregnancy.
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  Speaker 1: That's the finding. It doesn't seem to, according to this
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  Speaker 1: specific study, have any impact on the likelihood of a
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  Speaker 1: child having an ADHD or autism diagnosis, which should make
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  Speaker 1: a lot of parents breathe a lot easier.
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  Speaker 3: I was about to say that. It's literally pretty much
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  Speaker 3: the only drug that you are allowed to take during pregnancy,
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  Speaker 3: supposedly safely. it would be devastating to think that there
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  Speaker 3: is not anything left on the list.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that this study shows evidence that it
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  Speaker 1: is safe. What it found was... That there's no link.
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  Speaker 1: That there was no association between the two things in
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  Speaker 1: this particular study. And I'm just concerned that they've overstated it.
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  Speaker 1: We didn't find an association doesn't mean that there is
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  Speaker 1: no association. To me.
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  Speaker 3: 708,000 people, though. That's a lot.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And you'd expect to find something
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  Speaker 1: if it was there. But I think that it would
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  Speaker 1: be really nice to put it to bed and actually say,
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  Speaker 1: Trump got this wrong. I'd love to see more research
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  Speaker 1: on it so that we can have a more definitive position.
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  Speaker 1: But this is the first of many studies, I'm sure,
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  Speaker 1: that are going to help us to answer this empirical question,
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  Speaker 1: regardless of who said it and how ludicrous it sounded
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  Speaker 1: when it was said. After the break, two more studies
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  Speaker 1: that have caught my eye that I think we really
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  Speaker 1: need to discuss. Stay with us. We're back. This is
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  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast. Which one are we doing next, hon?
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  Speaker 3: Hetero-pessimism is harming young women.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So, Suzanne Benker is an author and life coach who
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  Speaker 1: was recently talking about this idea on Chris Williamson's Modern
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  Speaker 1: Wisdom podcast. Hetero-pessimism essentially means that if I were a woman,
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  Speaker 1: I would say I'm pessimistic about the possibility of things
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  Speaker 1: working out with a guy. I don't think this can work.
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  Speaker 1: And what we're seeing is that women are increasingly showing
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  Speaker 1: these indicators. When I was writing my book about boys,
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  Speaker 1: I spoke to a number of both women and adolescent females, girls,
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  Speaker 1: who said that they felt like their life would be
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  Speaker 1: better without a man in it. There's this pessimism about
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  Speaker 1: guys that are out there. And some of the stats
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  Speaker 1: on this are revealing. Only 24% of women aged 18
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  Speaker 1: to 29 believe married mothers are ultimately happier than other women.
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  Speaker 1: High school girls' hopes for marriage are also retreating. In 2010,
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  Speaker 1: more than 80% expected to marry. Now, 16 years later,
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  Speaker 1: it's dropped from 80% to 67% expecting to marry. We're
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  Speaker 1: in a dating recession. If you look at data from
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  Speaker 1: the US, the Pew Research Organization found 39% of single
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  Speaker 1: women under the age of 40 aren't even looking for
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  Speaker 1: a relationship. And it seems that across the board, the
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  Speaker 1: path to happiness for a lot of females seems to
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  Speaker 1: be as far away from men as it can be yet.
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  Speaker 1: And this is why I wanted to bring it up.
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  Speaker 1: There's a brand new article at the Institute for Family
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  Speaker 1: Studies blog that says the following. It says, unmarried childless
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  Speaker 1: women in their 20s and 30s are nearly three times
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  Speaker 1: more likely to be unhappy with their lives compared to
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  Speaker 1: married mothers the same age. And then they just say,
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  Speaker 1: heteropessimism really is a trap. By the time they feel
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  Speaker 1: ready in their 30s, the switch doesn't flip on command.
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  Speaker 1: Many found it hard to find a good man given
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  Speaker 1: the pool and their immediate circles had shrunk. Others found
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  Speaker 1: unanticipated difficulty in pivoting from a life focused on career
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  Speaker 1: and travel to marriage and young kids. Still others found
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  Speaker 1: getting pregnant difficult or impossible, especially if they're in their
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  Speaker 1: late 30s. And so the research then goes on to
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  Speaker 1: talk about what seems to be best associated with positive
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  Speaker 1: outcomes in life and especially in our relationships. And it
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  Speaker 1: goes directly opposite the hetero-pessimism hypothesis. It sounds very traditional.
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  Speaker 1: I'm aware of that. And again, this is why we
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  Speaker 1: ask these questions empirically, because ideology and empiricism don't always
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  Speaker 1: match up. But it seems that the ideology of hetero-pessimism
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  Speaker 1: and boys can't do it right, men are not doing
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  Speaker 1: well and life would be better without them. Maybe at
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  Speaker 1: an individual level, there are some unhealthy men and some
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  Speaker 1: really unhealthy relationships out there. But on the whole, the
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  Speaker 1: empirical evidence seems to be pointing very clearly to a
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  Speaker 1: conversation we want to have with our daughter specifically, finding
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  Speaker 1: the right guy. I talk about it in the book,
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  Speaker 1: finding a chair stacker, finding the guys who know how
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  Speaker 1: to help the people around them feel safer and stronger
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  Speaker 1: is categorically associated with better life outcomes and more happiness
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  Speaker 1: and satisfaction with life.
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  Speaker 3: And our last study today is, is there might be
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  Speaker 3: a new scientific explanation for the huge rise in ADHD
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  Speaker 3: and ASD diagnosis.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like I need to have a lay down
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  Speaker 1: after this podcast. Not only are we doing four studies
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  Speaker 1: in one, which is a lot, but there's some really
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: heavy content here. Like the stuff that we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: is really provocative. It's the stuff that pushes people's buttons.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to push buttons. I just, again, empirical
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  Speaker 1: questions need empirical answers. So the question that this specific
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  Speaker 1: article in JAMA Psychiatry answered. And this is called changes
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  Speaker 1: in genetic contributions to ASD and ADHD by year of diagnosis.
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  Speaker 1: These researchers asked the question, has the genetic risk profile
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  Speaker 1: of individuals diagnosed with ASD and ADHD changed as diagnostic
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  Speaker 1: rates have increased? And here's what they found. With 17,071
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  Speaker 1: people in the study with diagnosis of ASD and 20,111
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  Speaker 1: individuals with ADHD diagnoses, genetic contributions, and I want to
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  Speaker 1: say this very carefully and very precisely, genetic contributions to
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  Speaker 1: ASD and ADHD weakened over the past two decades. So
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  Speaker 1: what they've basically said in their study is the results
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  Speaker 1: suggest that recent increases in ASD and ADHD diagnoses coincide
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  Speaker 1: with a broadening of diagnostic criteria that not necessarily an
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: increase in actual ADHD and ASD. It's really provocative. It's
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: a hard thing to talk about. I'm not saying, by
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  Speaker 1: the way, if you are a parent and you're struggling
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  Speaker 1: with this, that your diagnosis isn't real for your kids
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  Speaker 1: or for you. What the research seems to be saying,
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  Speaker 1: and they analyze so many scores, they did so much
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  Speaker 1: work on this. Essentially, they've said the following, broadening diagnostic
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: criteria are the best explanation for increasing rates. And obviously,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: there are all sorts of implications for understanding changes in
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: risk factors and clinical practice. It's a really big one.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that it shines a light on what
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: we're doing in both medicine and psychology, because the diagnosis
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: may not always be in the best interests of the person.
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  Speaker 1: But a compassionate doctor sits with a parent who's struggling
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  Speaker 1: and says, well, let's tick these boxes. It looks like
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: you've got them. We'll see what support or medication or
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: what we can do to help. It just may not
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: always be the right thing based on this study. A
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: really big one, some really tough topics. What I love
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: about science is that we get to wrestle with tough
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: topics with empirical data. But of course, it can be
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: really hard at an individual level. It can be really sensitive.
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  Speaker 1: But that's our podcast today, Kylie. Thanks so much for
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: joining me for another episode of The Doctor's Desk. We're
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: back tomorrow with I'll Do Better Tomorrow. And if you'd
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: like more info to make your family happier, Check the
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: show notes so that you can see where these studies
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: came from and what we can learn from them.