Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / MBA Wire Taps 320—331 GRE, CPG candidate. Mechanical Engineer, two years of experience. First-generation immigrant, IT experience.

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MBA Wire Taps 320—331 GRE, CPG candidate. Mechanical Engineer, two years of experience. First-generation immigrant, IT experience. · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:15
  Speaker A: Welcome to the clear. Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your wiretaps for Monday, October 30, 2023. For more than 100 years, Emory University's Guiseueta Business School has been a training ground for principal leaders and a laboratory for powerful insights. Whether you're looking to accelerate your career or make a career pivot, Emory's one year and two year full time MBA programs prepare you for a lifetime of career confidence. Learn more about Emory's top 20 MBA with top five career outcomes, offering world class academics and small by design classes delivered in a dynamic global city. More at Emory biz slash clearadmit. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, happy Halloween Eve.
• 1:05
  Speaker B: Very good. Happy Halloween Eve to you, Greg.
• 1:10
  Speaker A: It is celebrated a little bit in the UK. No, I mean, I feel like it has its roots there. Am I wrong about that?
• 1:16
  Speaker B: Yes. Like all American traditions, they've seeped over to our side of the pond because we're bonfire Night. That's November 5. But, yeah, I think Halloween is basically superseding bonfire Night now.
• 1:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, got it. So tell me a little bit about I know people have been a little spooked by interview invites, and especially with the schools that trickle them out, but what's been going on, like, in the last kind of week or so since we last spoke on the show? Here what's happening.
• 1:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, Columbia has still been rolling out interview invites that'll probably stop here reasonably soon, but, yeah, Anderson is a school that's released quite a few interview invites. More recently, McDonough Goyzetta hass the big player is Wharton. Wharton sort of released all its interview invites for round one last week. The one I'm not sure about yet, as we're recording on Thursday, is Sloan. So Sloan will either have released them the back end of last week after this recording, or for sure this upcoming week, they're the last big school that needs to get their interview invites rolling.
• 2:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, and I think we're going to talk about this. We have a webinar for Clearadmit registered users this Wednesday at noon Eastern. And I think we're going to talk a little bit about how the data that you gather as an applicant via these interview invitations or rejection letters is really useful as you plot out kind of a potential round two strategy. So we'll get into that. If people want to join us, you can sign up on our website for that, by the way. But yeah, on the one hand, it is kind of nerve wracking, but on the other hand, quite useful to get some of this feedback. If you manage to get an interview here and there, but not at a couple of other schools, it's giving you information on maybe the competitiveness of your candidacy. So quite useful.
• 3:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:19
  Speaker A: The other thing I should mention is that we have two more events coming up. So obviously this Wednesday is the Clear admit plus Webinar, which you and I will host. Then next Wednesday, November Eigth, and the following Wednesday, November 15, again, both at noon Eastern, we're doing these deferred enrollment panels, so the first one on November Eigth is going to include Chicago Booth, harvard Business School, darden at Virginia, Wharton and Stanford. So that's going to be five schools, and we're going to talk all about their deferred enrollment program. So if you are a younger listener to the podcast, someone still in college or know anyone who fits that description, this is like must attend stuff because you're going to learn all about how these programs work, what the schools are looking for. And yeah, those deadlines kind of come up quickly, too, in the spring for most of these programs. So a good chance to get a head start there. And then the following week, we're also sitting down with, I guess, columbia, Yale, Berkeley and Carnegie Mellon. Tepper So a lot of stuff about deferred enrollment you can sign up by going to clearadmit and that's all lowercase all one word. There you go. Alex. So those will be fun.
• 4:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, great. Obviously geared to those in College university, but this is a trend that business schools are going after. They really want to compete with the stars graduating university who are considering thinking about directly going into a master's program. Obviously, the deferred admission isn't going directly into an MBA, but it gets the top MBA programs in front of those candidates and gets them thinking about that opportunity.
• 5:00
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would have loved that as an undergrad to lock in my spot, go work for a couple of years, and know that it was waiting for me instead of all the stress of applying while working and everything. So over on the website, Alex, we did a couple of admissions tips or kind of info pieces that I wanted to share. One is we have this great thing about how to impress during a video interview. Obviously, there's a written article as well as a video from our Admissions Academy series that you can watch on that stuff. We also, Lauren on our team published this round two deadlines chart. Again, I know we're starting to talk a lot about round two, and I noticed that January 3, fourth and fifth features no fewer than 16 deadlines at the top program. So if you're thinking about applying around two, it does require a lot of sort of advanced planning, especially with the holidays being right before those deadline dates. Alex we talk about this every year, but it's not the easiest for the applicants who are coming off their New Year's Eve hangovers or whatever, trying to get stuff in right after that.
• 6:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's all about convenience for the programs here. I guarantee one program that's not got a round two deadline on those three days will be slown. Yeah, they always but yeah, it's tough on the candidate. There's no doubt about that.
• 6:18
  Speaker A: Yeah. So it requires some planning. The other thing we did is we ran two more pieces in our sustainability series, which has been a real Rousing success. So we connected with Duke Fuqua and Yale, som and, you know, it's funny. I wanted to just share a little quote. So we asked Fuqua if they have any future plans related to sustainability that they wanted to share with us because they went through everything they're doing in their curriculum and so on. But they also said that this spring their students are going to participate in a new iteration of something that they call their Global Academic Travel Experience. It's a course focused on climate sustainability in Scandinavia. And so the MBA students learn about some of the world's most innovative sustainability strategies and the different companies that are kind of leading that. The course concludes, of course, with a two week tour through Denmark and Norway. So that sounds like fun.
• 7:12
  Speaker B: No, absolutely brilliant. What time of year are they doing this tour?
• 7:15
  Speaker A: I think it's in the spring, it sounds like. Right. So that's a good time to go up there.
• 7:19
  Speaker B: Not in the middle of yeah. No, I think this is absolutely brilliant, and I love this series. Business schools, top business schools have to get out in front on these sustainability issues. And it's very heartening to see that that's exactly what they're attempting to do.
• 7:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. And in the Yale piece, there's page after page of lists of courses, clubs, programming on sustainability. They're a school that's been long, kind of out in front on this. And so this is a lot of details about how it's integrated into their core curriculum, but also lots of special elective courses. And then Yale was also pointing out that their building, which I've been to several times and is an amazing, relatively new building, is completely green and captures rainwater and all this stuff. So very cool stuff that we're hearing from these schools as a part of that series. Encourage you to read it just because I think it impacts everyone and it's impacting the core curriculum. So good reading.
• 8:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. No, outstanding. And it's not surprising Yale's out in front on this because obviously their legacy is nonprofit and so on and so forth, even before they rolled out the official MBA. So you'd think that Yale this is right in their wheelhouse.
• 8:30
  Speaker A: Totally. We did a couple of real humans pieces. We caught up with five students from INSEAD. So current students in the program. And this is funny. We asked them all the same questions, but one of the questions we asked was, what is one part that you would have skipped if you could in terms of the application process and what helped you get through it? And this is great advice. So here's what this one student said, and I'm sorry that I didn't note her name, but she said one part I would skip about the application process is taking too much advice from friends and family on the essays. You just need one or two reliable people who can help you with your story and proofread your essays. Every person has a different style and taking too much advice can make the essays lose authenticity. So I think that's great advice. We always talk about the need to get people to weigh in and is it you? Et cetera. But there is too much of a good thing there, right?
• 9:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, no doubt. And eventually, if you get too many cooks weighing in or whatever you call it, your ass is just going to be dull.
• 9:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. And we also connected with Cornell Five students again, and we asked them, what is one thing you would change or do differently? And here's another piece of great advice. This is from an international student and she says as an international student, applying during Round One in September would have allowed me more time for preparations like housing, exploring the campus and going to in person coffee, chats and sage socials as well as given me an early heads up for Destination Johnson, which I heard was a great way to get to know Johnson more intimately and connect with potential classmates. So this is someone who ultimately did apply in Round Two, and as a result, as an international, found it a little more challenging to get all of her ducks in a row. So that's good advice. Maybe a bit late now, given where we are in the calendar, but if you're thinking about next year, probably good advice.
• 10:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe schools need to just push that a little bit more. Not from an admission standpoint. I e. You've got a better chance for admissions in Round One versus Round Two, but much more from a transition standpoint. It's going to make your life a lot easier, definitely, if you've identified where you're going in January versus in March. April.
• 10:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. So one last thing before we dive into our candidates for this week is that NYU Stern just published their employment report for the class of 23. So I'll just run down these stats, Alex, and be curious to hear your thoughts. So they had a class size of 353 students, and of that, 315 were looking for work. So these stats are all based on the group that was actually looking for a job, because many students are sponsored or they're starting their own company or something. So those 315 students, 94% of them were hired within three months of graduation. Their average salary was 175,000. That's up from 170 last year. And their bonus is north of $26,000 on average. That's tracked similar to last year, if memory serves, in terms of where they were going. Consulting led the way this year, with 42% of the students going into that field, it was only 31% last year. So a big bump there. Finance 29% of the students went into that. That actually came down from 34% the year prior. So finance and consulting have actually flip flopped in those number one and two slots at Stern for the class of 23. In terms of tech jobs, 14% went into tech, that's down from 17%. A small number went into entertainment, media and sports, that's 3% off a tick from 4%. And then consumer packaged goods, 3% also off just a tiny bit from 4% last year. So those are kind of the industries. Alex, any thoughts on that?
• 12:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm still puzzled because we've seen this with other employment reports. What's driving this higher percentage going to consulting when we're hearing that on the street that consulting offers are being delayed and so on and so forth. So I'm assuming this 42% offers in hand doesn't necessarily mean they've started at this point because it is quite OD that. Yeah. What drove consulting to go up and finance to go down at Stern, which is renowned for its very strong finance program and so forth. Obviously its location, New York City, is really attractive to those wanting to work on Wall Street, et cetera. But, yeah, I mean, overall the numbers are very good. It's just a little puzzling, but we've had this conversation before with basically every other employment report we've seen thus far.
• 13:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think that we'll see this shift in next year's numbers because I suspect that the consulting firms have put a pause on some of the hiring. So those numbers are going to come down a bit, but for now, yeah, schools continue to ride that wave of consulting hiring. The last thing I wanted to share was just the kind of geographic numbers for Stern. So 78% of the graduating class who are looking for work landed in the Northeast. That's actually down a little bit from 82% last year. 9% went to the West Coast, that's up a tick. It was 6% last year, 4% went to the mid Atlantic, that's unchanged, 3% international and 3% to the Midwest. And both of those numbers are unchanged. So NYU, Stern still showing a really strong kind of hold in that northeast region. You could throw in the mid Atlantic too, and you're pretty much above 80% with those numbers. So obviously great network and it's in New York. There's just so many jobs in New York. So it makes sense to me.
• 14:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. If you want to work in New York City after your MBA, stern has to be high up on your list.
• 14:18
  Speaker A: Totally, yeah. And speaking of Stern, we just ran a podcast last week about Stern and career pivots that's live on the site now and was a lot of fun recording that. I got to connect with an amazing second year student who's actually, I think going off to, oh, gosh, I'm going to forget now. Is it McKinsey? Anyway, somewhere great. And she was just great, just sort of talking through her process of coming. She actually originally from Spain, lived in the US. For a while, and so great guest on the show, along with Lauren on their admissions team who had a lot to say about how the admissions office looks at people who are doing a kind of career pivot because that was really the focus of the episode. So you can listen to that. Wherever you're listening to this episode, as always, please reach out to Alex and I by writing to Info@clearadmit.com. Use the subject line Wiretaps and we will write you back. Alex, anything else before we get into our candidates for this week?
• 15:14
  Speaker B: No, let's kick on.
• 15:15
  Speaker A: All right, so this is Wiretaps candidate number one. Our first candidate this week has six schools on the target list. And those schools are dartmouth, Duke, Michigan, Kellogg, Wharton, and Darden. They want to start school this coming fall 2024. They have been working in consumer packaged goods prior to business school and they're thinking about consulting afterwards. And they have BCG and McKinsey on the list. Their GRE is an amazing 331. Their GPA is a 3.35. They've got seven and a half years of work experience. They're located in the USA. And they mentioned in their notes that they've had four promotions in seven years in sales roles at a Fortune 500 consumer packaged goods company. They currently have one direct report in their role. And I know, Alex, you had kind of some additional exchanges with them to kind of tease out their goals a bit further beyond just kind of consulting. So I'll let you kind of take it from here. But what do you make of this countercy? Because obviously pretty stellar GRE score, GPA a little less so, but still decent. But they work in sales, which is a little less common. So, yeah, what do you make of this?
• 16:27
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think, quite honestly, this is a strong candidate for the most part. Oftentimes you think of a sales role as not necessarily being the ideal pre MBA sort of role, but they quote 10% of the company's sales. I've grown business from a billion dollars to a billion .6 in three years. Maybe there's some business development role sort of complemented there and so on and so forth. But it does seem I guess my point is that their work experience is actually very strong. They've got seven and a half years of it. So hopefully they show that growth and impact over a good period of time. Their long term goal is to go back into consumer goods and so forth in a leadership situation. The idea of going into consulting for a period of time is sort of to provide some sort of optionality, some sort of broader experience, then bring back to their longer term careers. So I kind of understand that. I know we talked a little bit before coming on air whether, given the climate, consulting firms, whether that's really the best short term goal for them. But anyway, that's something that they could think about. The GPA three three five is a little bit of a concern. They were super busy during undergrad, so it's a bit of a time management issue here. They were involved in lots of clubs, lots of activity, they undertook several internships and so on and so forth. Obviously the 331 really helps in that regard. So they're obviously very smart. The other interesting thing about this candidate, Graham, is that they've already applied to all these schools in Round One. They were denied an interview at Wharton, have interview invites at all the other schools. But I'm looking at those schools and mostly I think they're schools that offer interviews. I agree to candidates. So you've got the likes of TOC and Kellogg and so on and so forth. So I'm not sure how much signal value that they can yield from their success so far, other than obviously Wharton said no. But it has to make them start thinking about a Round Two strategy. So, for instance, Graham, let's say they were successful, their interviews and they got admits across the board. What would that suggest they should do in Round Two? And then, conversely, let's say they got the interviews but didn't gain any admissions. What should that say about their Round Two strategy? Because obviously they can adapt their Round Two strategy based on their successes in Round One.
• 19:21
  Speaker A: Yeah. So if they're running the table, that would lead me to think that maybe the Wharton reject is kind of an aberration or that they might want to look at some other kind of M seven schools. If the other scenario occurs and they don't get it anywhere, then the first thing I would want to do is kind of really reflect on their application strategy because it doesn't make sense to me that they would get rejected at all these schools, at least, given the raw ingredients that we see here. I will say their current extracurriculars sound a bit light, but they were really active in college, and so I think hopefully the admissions team would be able to recognize that, yeah, this person, when they're in an academic community, is going to really take the bull by the horns and get involved. Hopefully not to the detriment of their academic performance, but in any event yeah. So I think it really depends on what happens. I do want to ask you this question. Given that our discussions with career services officers and some people who are in the consulting industry suggest that hiring is starting to really tighten up, do you think there's any risk in having a kind of MBB goal set? Especially when you're a candidate that could probably make a Pivot out of sales and into strategy or marketing at a CPG without even going to a consulting firm first. Do you think this candidate would benefit from having slightly different goals or you think it's fine to just sail through the process with the kind of usual MBB plan.
• 20:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think on the very slim margin, I get your point. If this person's goal, short and long term, were to return to the CPG environment, that might provide a little bit of an uptick, how those goals align with what the school can do for them and so on and so forth. Given the climate for consulting, which, again, we're not seeing in the current class employment reports, which is still puzzling to me, but that all said. Yeah, I can understand that idea, but at the end of the day, if they don't get admissions to the schools they've already targeted, I don't think it's because they use consulting necessarily as their short term goal. So I wouldn't think it's that as big of an issue. Interesting though, Graham, you poo poo a little bit their extracurricular activities. Now they're volunteering at a state park to recuperate and grow a plot of endangered species of trees. Yes. So to me that also plays into the sort of environmental stuff, the importance of that they're working in consumer packaged goods. Are they looking in the longer term to figure out how to make that a much more sustainable industry and so forth? Because consumer packaged goods obviously is a huge impact on climate change and so on and so forth. So there might be a nice interesting tie there that they're working on for their profile. And maybe the reason why this is their volunteer activity is because it's actually something they're particularly passionate about, which if it is the case, I actually quite like it.
• 22:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, so you're raising a great point. So maybe this person is active at work with respect to thinking through the sustainable practices that their CPG company could be deploying. Plus they're doing this, as you say, this outside activity. I just felt like if that's the only activity they have, and maybe they have others that they don't really think meet the threshold, for instance, maybe they do other activities that are more for fun or exercise or whatever, so maybe they are a more well rounded candidate than they appear. But I agree. What a great way to weave these things together. If mean we'll yeah, they have a lot of work experience and I'm hoping that they had someone read through their file and just to sort of make sure that they're taking the right approach because that Wharton no interview is not a great sign to me. I mean, the numbers line up and kind of interesting work experience, plenty of it. So I'm a little worried about that. But we'll see how it all kind of unfolds from here, I guess.
• 23:31
  Speaker B: Yeah. And they do have an interview, obviously, at Kellogg, which is another M seven. But again, Kellogg tries to interview everybody, but hopefully they're successful there. But I do think they need to think about even now around two strategy agreed. And start looking at potentially one or two other M Seven programs outside of potentially Harvard. Stanford, because they'd be on a par with Wharton and so forth. But maybe likes of Sloan or Booth or Columbia or whatever it. Might be and one or two other top 16 programs and start that process as they're interviewing for these programs and hopefully they'll have some great opportunity.
• 24:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. All right, well, they should keep us posted, if possible, on their applywire post. I want to thank them for submitting their data points so that we could comment and talk about them on the show. Let's move on, though, and talk about wiretaps candidate number two. So our second candidate this week has eight schools on the target list, and they are Berkeley, Columbia, Kellogg, NYU, Chicago, Washington, Foster, USC, Marshall, and UVA Darden. This candidate is looking ahead. They don't want to really apply or start until 2025. They've been working in mechanical engineering. They actually just graduated from undergrad, so they've just kind of embarked on their career. And they're hoping to apply or matriculate, I guess, with two years and change of work experience. So they're thinking about either consulting or tech for their post MBA plans. So as a result, they've got the likes of Accenture, Bain, Deloitte, BCG, KPMG, all the usual suspects, as well as a handful of tech companies like Apple, Facebook, Google, IBM, Microsoft, and so on. They're located in Washington, and they basically mentioned that they recently graduated with a Be in mechanical engineering, and by 2025, they'll have worked for a couple of years. They say it'll be four years with their internships, but that's not really how schools look at these things, necessarily. They indicate that while they're working, their extracurriculars include being a mentor for a high school robotics team and taking classes through University of Washington for coding and project management. They're thinking about Pivoting, though, from kind of what sounds like a fairly technical role into consulting or tech, but in more of a product manager or obviously strategy type role. They haven't yet taken one of the standardized tests, but they're planning to, and they're just wondering they say they know they don't have a lot of work experience, but they're just wondering which test should they take?
• 26:16
  Speaker B: What kind?
• 26:17
  Speaker A: Of a score would they need to target the schools on their list? And if there's anything else they should be doing as they kind of plot this course to.
• 26:26
  Speaker B: I mean, I think just to answer those questions directly, I think they should take the GMAT as the sort of more traditional entrance exam, give themselves enough time for a retake as well as really prep hard. This person has to really ace the GMAT to even have some slim chance at a Top 16 type program after two years of work experience. I mean, they might if they end up top 20, top 30 type program, absolutely not a problem, I would think, if they show good work over the two years and a decent GMAT score. But if they're really aiming more for the top 16, which sort of and amongst their list, they've even got some M seven on their list as earlier in their career as they are, that's going to be very challenging. And also their GPA, I mean, obviously it's an engineering degree, so that's a bit of a tougher discipline, but their GPA is 3.2, so they've got to overcome that a little bit too. They've taken some additional courses and so forth to help prepare them. So that's very good. I got this sense, Graham, this is a candidate that will be a much stronger candidate in three or four years than they will be next year when they're applying. If they do decide to apply next year. And I understand they want to transition into consulting or tech, which again, is symptomatic of someone that's early in their career. They don't actually know the exact pivot that they want to do yet, but I understand they want to pivot, but they'd make that pivot much more readily, I think, with an extra year or two of experience in the bag, as it were. So they got to show that two years so let's assume they are applying in the two years. They got to show that that two years experience is equivalent to folks that have worked three or four years. In order for them to be competitive, they've got to show that they're out of work. Activities are again equivalent to those that are targeting top 16 M seven. So try to find something that shows a bit more of their leadership. I like mentorship stuff, actually, so if they can ratchet that up, mentorship is definitely something that Adcom really sort of do favor. So that's very good. So focus on that. Really focus on tough projects and assignments at work to show that you're a real go getter innovator or whatever it might be. Ace the GMAT and then take a flyer. And if they're not successful next season, they can come back as a reapplicant in the following season or whatever at schools that they want to do their MBA program at. But I just worry right now next season they won't get their best options.
• 29:24
  Speaker A: Yeah, I tend to agree and I failed to mention, thanks for mentioning their GPA was a three two. It's a bit lower than the average GPA at most of their target schools. And so that, as you said, puts a lot of pressure on them to get a high test score. But even with that high test score, they're going to be younger and so one of the things I think is that they need clarity around their goals. This is like, as you said, it's a common symptom of a younger candidate to be like, well, consulting or maybe tech, product management, I don't know. So they're going to need to just pick something and obviously that's up to them. But I would encourage them to just go for it and sort of hone in on exactly what they'd want to do. It seems like the other thing is that if they could decide what they want to do, they could then refine this list of target schools. Right. So right now they have a number of West Coast schools because they have Foster, Marshall, Berkeley, so they're thinking out west. But then they also have a bunch of schools on the East Coast and like, Columbia and Stern and Darden. So I think they need to figure out where they want to be. And I think, obviously, different schools would match some of these goals better than others. Right. So if they want to do tech product management, that might lead to one set of schools versus MBB consulting or something. So just food for thought on their end. But what I would say is, like you said, take the test, plan on potentially having to take it twice. I agree. GMAT's probably the way to go. The new test that's available now or in a couple of days here is shorter. Should be fairly straightforward to prep for. I know GMAT has already issued a lot of prep materials, so yeah, get going on that. Get the test out of the way. And then they can think about if the score comes in where they want. They can think about whether they want to apply next year or even wait, as you say, and continue to get that work experience. I do know where they're coming from. Like, they're working as a mechanical engineer, and they're already, it sounds like, wanting to have that kind of more strategic or managerial focus that you would get from an MBA. So I understand the engineer wanting to kind of pivot over to the business side of the house, but yeah, they're going to need to really ace that test if they want to do it quickly.
• 31:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, I completely understand what they're doing. I just think that their opportunities in two or three years time might be greater than they are totally in a year's time. But at the end of the day, apply next season, try take on board some of the things that we're talking about. And again, if they're not successful, it's not the end of the road.
• 31:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:54
  Speaker B: Things will potentially continue to improve.
• 31:57
  Speaker A: Yeah. So I want to thank that person for sharing their profile. Best of luck as they prep for the test and get all that stuff going. Let's move on, though, and talk about wiretaps candidate number three. So our third candidate this week, Alex, is definitely it's a different sort of candidacy. This person just has two schools on their target list, and they are graham.
• 32:19
  Speaker B: I just stop you here. I'm really looking forward to you summarizing this candidacy.
• 32:23
  Speaker A: I know. Yeah. All right, so this candidate, they have Harvard and Wharton on their target list. They want to start school next fall and they're currently in a role as Director of Information Technology. They want to pivot either into consulting or maybe stay in tech or entrepreneurship. They're still trying to figure that all out. They mentioned McKinsey as a potential landing place. Their GPA is a 3.97. They have four years of work experience and they're located in Philadelphia. They want to stay in the Northeast. It sounds like they really want to stay in Philly, actually. And they gave us background information that just spanned like paragraph after paragraph. There's just a ton of information here. So they indicated that they're going to be 28 at the time of matriculation. But this is not a straightforward, like, I finished college, work for four years, go to business school. They actually worked, went to community college, did some work while they were doing community college. Then they got a four year degree again, which they're still finishing, I believe. They're almost done with it, it sounds like, and they're just kind of been working full time while doing all their education. And that's because they're first generation immigrant from what they describe as an economically and democratically challenged country in South America. And so they are the first in their family to kind of get a college degree. They're actually graduating this coming spring, so they're finishing their undergrad again while working full time. They took a practice test on the GRE and didn't do as well as they'd wanted. So they're still kind of working. They're trying to get up above like, let's say 325. So that's still kind of in process work. Experience wise, though. They're Director of Information Technology for a couple of years now at a medium sized firm. They also worked as an information technology engineer for a year prior to that in the education sector. And they did field technician work. I mean, one of the things that's fascinating to me as well is while they were in school and kind of working sounds like maybe while they were at community college, they did a lot of other jobs too. So they worked at a car wash, in restaurants, painting, doing construction, computer repairs. So this is someone who has a lot of life experience and I personally find that really valuable. And I think admissions officers agree. I mean, obviously it's great that they have their kind of more traditional work as a Director of Information Technology, but I think some of these other roles that they've had to hold over the years are going to be valuable too. They do a ton extracurricularly. I mean, they're a firefighter. They play in a soccer league. They also play in a covers band. I mean, they have a lot going on, but they really only want to go to Wharton. And they say that here. I mean, they're going to apply to Harvard too, but they mentioned that they're from Philly. They kind of grew up there. They want to stay there. So Alex, I'm going to stop there because there's just a ton more to share. But pretty unique candidate. And I think one of the problems we have here is just that we don't know the test score yet and the GPA is fantastic, but they haven't graduated yet. But they will by the time they matriculate. So yeah. What do you make of this?
• 35:29
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think a really interesting candidate. You make such a super point about their lived experience. I think that'll play really well in admissions, so they shouldn't be afraid to really talk about some of this stuff. It's unorthodox for top tier MBA program candidates. But the nice thing about this candidate is that they also have a really good, strong set of technology experience, the Director of Information Technology. So their equivalency in their professional experience, I think is right there with folks that are applying to leading business programs. So I think that's really good. It's going to be challenging for them to get their story told, succinctly and told well, because they've got to really show that they have had that impact despite the fact that they don't yet have a college degree. Because I'm not saying that admissions readers are biased, but if they're looking at someone that's still graduating, they're going to be like, well, is this professional experience really up to par? How did they get these roles without having an undergraduate degree? And so on and so forth. So they'll face that as a bit of a challenge. They're a first generation immigrant. I love the idea that it's from democratically and economically challenged South America. I'm not sure which country that excludes.
• 36:59
  Speaker A: Well, no, Venezuela comes to mind. I guess there are a bunch.
• 37:04
  Speaker B: There are quite a few that fit that category, I guess was my point.
• 37:07
  Speaker A: Fair enough.
• 37:09
  Speaker B: Let's really hope that they come in with a very strong GRE score that's in that mid three hundred and twenty s three hundred and thirty. And I think if it gets close to that 330, they're going to be really hard to ignore with, again, this sort of really great tapestry of lived experience in conjunction with strong professional experience, despite the fact they haven't got an undergraduate degree in conjunction with a myriad extracurricular activities, which sound really interesting too.
• 37:43
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Speaker B: One question they asked was should they ratchet that stuff up or do some different stuff? Please don't. Just do what you do. Do what you're passionate about and continue doing it. It just sounds really fascinating. They really want to go to Wharton, right? I think they love Philadelphia more than you, Graham, which is definitely hard to find folks like that that are so passionate. But I mean, obviously Philadelphia has meant so much to them as an individual, right. They grew up there, whole life experiences there. I'm not dismissing their plan that Wharton is their be all and end all, but I do think that they've got to be realistic, right? Get a couple more apps in to other M Seven and top 16 if they know that getting an MBA degree is what they want to do and start this season only. Targeting Harvard and Wharton for the best candidates is a risky strategy. So there are plenty of other top MBA programs that can get them back to Philadelphia and do some amazing things in the future. So I would really encourage them to broaden out their list of target schools whilst also really focusing very hard on getting an outstanding test score. But yeah, lots to like about this lived experience stuff.
• 39:15
  Speaker A: Graham yeah, I mean, they're an hour and ten minutes on the Amtrak train to New York City, for instance, from Philadelphia. So, I mean, they could look at Columbia NYU stern. I'm not suggesting that they live in Philadelphia while attending those programs because they would miss out on a lot, but I'm saying that to get back on weekends or whatever easy. So I would encourage them to cast a slightly wider net just because they're highly nontraditional. And obviously, if they take the GRE and they have, like, a 333 or something, okay, maybe they can be picky, but I feel like they need to. As you said, even the best candidates would never apply to just one or two schools of the sort of level at Harvard and Wharton, unless they're saying, look, I don't mind waiting another year. Which totally possible too.
• 39:58
  Speaker B: Which they have signaled that they're willing to do that. So if that's the case, they can't wait too many years, right? Because the clock will be ticking.
• 40:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. I do want to touch on one last thing with them. And the reason I highlight it is because I worked at a startup before I went to business school and had a lot of, I guess it was nontraditional but also somewhat traditional experience. I worked in marketing and management and things, but when I was in school, I worked in a hardware store and I waited tables. And as I think back on my experiences entering the workforce and things, those experiences of working at the hardware store and at the restaurant are basically of equal value to me in terms of the things that I learned and interacting with people and so on. So I think that's why admissions officers often find, wow, this is and I know in this era those types of jobs are less common. It feels like this generation Gen Z or whatever might tend to get the more prestigious internships or experiences and there's less of the I'm just going to go work at a restaurant for the summer, that's not good enough for your resume or something, but I think there's a lot of value in these experiences. So anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. But I do think that this person has a lot of amazing experiences and I think not. It's a small company they're working for. They're not at Google or whatever doing it, but it seems like they have enough here. And I'm just hoping, and I should mention the undergrad where they're completing their college degree, it's a top 50 school, so it's not like they just went to some unknown school to finish college. So, yeah, I feel like there's a lot to like here and that they need to be succinct in their application and their strategy, figure out what their goals are, et cetera. But I would apply to a few more schools, and I'm hoping that they land somewhere because they have a great, really interesting profile.
• 41:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. And three nine, seven GPA is very, very good.
• 41:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, not bad. All right, so that's about it, Alex. We went through the three candidates. Took us a little longer than usual, but appreciate you picking these out. Some very interesting stories to discuss. And we'll do it all in one week's time.
• 42:09
  Speaker B: Very good. Best luck, everyone. Stay safe.