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Chris Do's Producer Explains The Secret Sauce to Podcast Success · Gimbal Podcast

0:00
On today's episode of Gimbal, we are talking with Rich Cardona, the long-time producer for the iconic creator Chris Doh.
0:07
On this episode, we are speaking with him about launching a podcast, because guess what?
0:12
That's exactly what we're doing, and he has a ton of experience working with both experienced podcasts and inexperienced podcasts,
0:19
and he's going to be sharing a ton of knowledge about what expectations to set for yourself and how to win as a brand new podcast.
0:28
It's a great episode, and thank you for clicking and sticking around. Let's get into the interview.
0:32
You're the long-time podcast producer for Chris Doh.
0:35
Yeah.
0:36
Is that the right way of...
0:38
Yeah, it's been a year and a half, but I've known him for quite some time.
0:43
He is my, is, I guess, technically still my business coach.
0:47
So when he brought us on, I was kind of like ecstatic, because he knows like all the skeletons in our closet, and he still took us on, which is great.
0:54
So yes, but I've helped him and a few others.
0:58
That's interesting. So he was a coach for you first.
1:01
Oh, yeah.
1:02
What was he coaching you in?
1:03
Business.
1:04
Okay.
1:05
Like, just all facets.
1:08
I mean, it's hilarious, but sales, negotiation, you know, like what moves to make.
1:16
I mean, he's...
1:17
But the thing about him, I was thinking about him last night, because he's like, you should come out to Future Fest.
1:21
You know, he has a future, and it's October something, and you should go to Atlanta for sure.
1:26
I was just thinking that.
1:28
Yeah, yeah, so I might.
1:29
But like, he is the least judgmental person, you know, with someone who has a following like he does, with a reputation like he does, and here's all the same questions all the times that he does.
1:44
He is extraordinarily just lacks that part, which is just to judge people wrongly.
1:51
He never makes you feel bad.
1:53
Even if I've come back to him with the same problem two years in a row, whether it was like ending a client relationship in the wrong way or something like that, and then I do it again, like he's never like...
2:03
We talked about this.
2:05
Like, how could you make that mistake again?
2:06
It's never been that way, so that is probably the most invaluable thing about his coaching is that, you know, you could go into it and just be...
2:14
He's truly invested in you, which is really, really hard to do when he talks as many people as he does.
2:19
Sure.
2:20
So, he did some coaching for you, but now you do some work for him.
2:24
Is that kind of like a surreal thing for you that you're like a big collaborator in his enterprise, no?
2:30
Yeah, I mean, so we were doing audio only for his podcast, and we took on YouTube for him, and YouTube for him is different than YouTube with other people.
2:41
And I mean, you know, I know you guys, I mean, it was particular and it was challenging, and it was eight hours of sitting on YouTube Studio after it was published and trying to figure things out and all those things.
2:52
And we just don't typically have to do that with like new stage, not new stage, but founders who are new to podcasting, it's just kind of like we're like just getting the reps looking for consistency.
3:04
For this, it had to be like very calculated, very detailed.
3:08
It's competing with his normal business content, which of course towers over all the podcast content.
3:14
That's actually something that's been surfacing a lot in a lot of conversations with people coming to us.
3:19
Like, hey, like, do I have my podcast on the same channel or not or what?
3:24
And it's like, it's really interesting.
3:26
The podcast on people's channels, and I'm sorry, I'm going to go in another direction, but the podcast on certain people's channels like truly can kill their channel.
3:36
I'm so glad you bring this up because I've had this conversation with so many strategists.
3:40
Oh, my gosh.
3:41
Nobody is really on the same page.
3:42
No.
3:43
But that's amazing.
3:44
Do not put your podcasts on the same main channel.
3:46
We've removed podcasts from his page, and we've alleviated ourselves of that responsibility.
3:52
And I'm literally not complaining about it.
3:54
Like audio only is so much less friction and so many less booby traps.
4:00
But so he, he part of his strategy or our strategy collectively is like, we do got to put some out though.
4:08
Like, so if he has like Jefferson Fisher or Mark or anything like that, Mark Manson, you know, stuff like that, they're like, yes, of course we're going to make the video.
4:16
You know what I mean?
4:17
Like, we should not only because it's good to, but because they probably have a substantial audience as well and all that good stuff.
4:24
So, but yeah, I mean, I'll tell you right now I have three clients who like, we're like, we need to go to another channel like tomorrow.
4:34
Like, this is kind of crazy. Like, you have a better chance of reaching people organically than YouTube being like, you're confusing us because you have these podcasts.
4:42
And then you also have this content.
4:44
So, you know, well, we're not showing your shit to anyone any time.
4:47
Bye.
4:48
Like, that's what it feels like.
4:49
Yeah.
4:50
Yeah. I was talking to Patty Galloway strategist about this recently because there's been a big, there's been a rush of momentum of everybody, you know, filming their podcast now.
4:59
So, it's a video podcast and then they're putting it on, you know, where do we put it on YouTube?
5:03
Well, we're going to put it on the main channel.
5:05
And the argument for the other side that I've heard so far has been, well, my main channel has a couple million subscribers.
5:11
If I put it there, my podcast episode might be a 10 out of 10 on YouTube studio, but it's going to get more views than if I put it on a fresh channel.
5:18
And I hear that side of the argument, but I think it crushes the other like talking head videos or any other kind of videos that you might have on that main channel.
5:25
Because like you said, it confuses the algorithm and it doesn't want to promote anything anymore.
5:30
I think this is especially true when it comes to interviews.
5:34
What we've learned in serving a lot of the future listeners and all that is like almost no one wants to hear other people, which is kind of crazy.
5:44
You know, like Chris is a teacher and he's a very good teacher and he's really philosophical and he's very contrarian and all that.
5:51
So it's like even when we switch the intros to not being a snippet of something that guests said and we just had Chris do the pickup instead like, wow, like people are staying on longer.
6:02
Like it's ridiculous.
6:03
You know, they're not dropping off as fast.
6:05
So that's one thing we've noticed.
6:07
So I would say for interviews, that's really important.
6:10
Yeah, like do you want the 10 out of 10 and the average year duration of two minutes and 59 seconds for a 50 minute podcast?
6:18
Like I don't think you do.
6:19
Sure.
6:20
Do not I'm saying.
6:21
So like I look at it that way and then at the same time, if you do have a captive audience, it potentially can work.
6:28
And I do know I have friends in the industry and a couple other people who are doing phenomenally well.
6:33
But the podcast is the centerpiece of their channel and the YouTube ones are kind of like the whatever exception to the rule I would say.
6:41
Okay, just on something interesting about you know, Chris being the top of show voice or doing like a little snippet for interviews.
6:52
I think it's super popular and sexy right now.
6:55
Like to do the diary of a CEO style or show.
6:58
What's your take on this?
7:00
I think that is that the way to go.
7:03
Not if not if you're trying to break in.
7:07
I would say if you haven't established audience and you want to leave them on a cliffhanger and open a bunch of loops and not close the loops.
7:12
Like I'm sure that's cool.
7:14
But it's like everything gets played out.
7:16
You know, like I mean the Hormosi style of short form content like came and went and now it's like forget it like you no one wants that.
7:25
So I think I have a feeling it's the same as diary of the CEO like they really capitalized on the resources they have and how to make something super sexy.
7:34
But they also have a ridiculous budget to test out a zillion thumbnails you know and all this other stuff and put Facebook ads on like certain clips to see if they'll actually perform.
7:43
It's like crazy that they do that.
7:45
But like for us right here the three of us like we could probably get a couple cool sound bites at the beginning.
7:51
But does that mean people are going to be on the edge of their seats like I'm going to listen to this right now.
7:58
I'm not taking that meeting because I'm listening to this like I don't think so.
8:02
So I think it's better to just like allow people to get to know you and like feel like you're.
8:08
I don't know just like you're catching up like which is exactly what I know you're kind of going for like you know just the casual nature of a podcast I think is.
8:17
Probably what people should be aiming for but as long as it's still always focused on moving towards what you said you were going to give the listeners.
8:25
Right we have this thing in the YouTube side thing so I come from like a video making background more than a podcasting background and there's this invisible metric called time to value.
8:37
And it's the moment from the start of the video to the first piece of value that was promised in the videos packaging.
8:43
So is that something that applies to podcasting as well like if the podcast title features you know some kind of clever hook or something like that.
8:51
Do you want to get into that right away is there room for casual banter you've already kind of given your stance on the diary of a CEO and entry what's the right intro here.
9:01
I have a couple of opinions on this but if someone let's start on short form first and then I'll kind of give my form my opinion on the long form.
9:10
If I'm making a short form video on the top five things you need to do in order to start a podcast successfully.
9:19
I should probably not do what everyone else does which is like and you're going to want to stay around to the fifth because that's the most important.
9:26
I hate that.
9:28
You should just make number of one the banger.
9:31
Do you know what I'm saying like just do that.
9:34
I believe the people will be compelled more compelled to listen to the non sexier ones but like you probably just increase your watch time by like fulfilling it.
9:44
So I completely agree with you on time to value.
9:47
So like just do it then I think on the podcast it's the same and I've been really really wanting to experiment.
9:54
That you know on just getting into the deeper part of the conversation revealing the either the interviews expertise or Chris's take on something if it's him or Arjun if it's mortgage like whatever it is like kill on that like at first and I think then you could kind of trickle down into.
10:13
By the way like let's just talk about Olena.
10:16
I know we hit the ground running but let's talk a little bit about your past and how you actually ended up here versus starting with for those who don't know you tell us a little bit about you which will immediately tank a lot because you never know what they're going to say so.
10:29
The stance is mildly different for long form and short form but I would just say don't don't hide anything just give everything you can as soon as you can and that does not mean that the episode has to be 30 minutes because you have a guest on like or an hour I mean it could be 30 minutes and that's literally enough.
10:48
Like don't just like go for what you think you need to continue going for that's another thing that we're kind of experimenting right now with this show is like how long is the right length and we're thinking you know if we're relatively new show maybe shorter episodes are better because people might be willing to trust you with 20 minutes of the time but might not be willing to trust you with 75 minutes of the time yeah they don't know who you are yep.
11:12
I'm inclined to agree I think I always like the sitcom statistic which is like a sitcom is like 22 minutes and if anyone is not old like me and you know what that means is like you know a modern family was on TV it's like 22 total you know what I'm saying so it's like 22 I say somewhere around there but so podcasting about three years ago the average listener duration even without liars like Rogan's and stuff like that was like 43 or I'm sorry like 47 ish minutes.
11:42
And then I think it got down to low 40s and then then it got into the 30s very recently so there's a there's a podcast expert I know he's totally old school and he goes everyone always ask everyone always ask like how long should my podcast be and he goes I say the same thing every time shorter than your last one and I'm kind of like in that camp man like not shorter every time but like shorter is better and I just think it makes us more effective communicators unless like
12:13
I'm interviewing like a dream interview mine would be like Jimmy found like I'll try and make sure that thing never ends for my own selfish
12:21
You know what I'm saying but otherwise like yeah man like keep it I think you guys are on the right on the right so we're 13 minutes in we got a wrap it up in about nine minutes so anyway but like yeah
12:33
But keep it short and just get to the value and only provide what's needed I just think that's what it's like and to your point about the 20 minutes if they trust you at 20 minutes
12:42
They might actually trust you with 40 if they got a longer drive or if they're working out or whatever do you know what I'm saying if you especially if you
12:49
Have a backlog and you're like and don't forget to catch the next episode on blank blank blank or if you missed last week
12:54
I actually covered this isn't this so it's like if you transition that pretty well and people are listening towards the end like you might have just got
13:02
Double what someone might have listened to first is
13:05
Half if it was a longer episode. It's funny. You're describing like a lot of the same things that apply in
13:11
YouTube education, which is where I spend my entire life like just making YouTube talking head videos and stuff like that
13:17
You know having a strong CTA that drives somebody to another video or in this case would be another podcast episode
13:23
Is this something that's new as of like the last 12 months because of the emergence of
13:29
Video podcast and everything, you know, oh YouTube is a great place for discovery now
13:33
Whereas podcast prior was like, oh, it's all word of mouth. Yeah, are all these tactics new?
13:39
No, I mean, it's still very very heavily word of mouth
13:43
So for like any launch plans that we have so we have like a four-week launch prior to like we even do a trailer and a lot of that actually
13:50
Involves determining that founder or that host like people groups, right? So like business acquaintances
14:00
Former employers or employees, you know like who they went to school with and then like obviously friends and family
14:07
Which is like you know like you do it just because you know those support you
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But that's not necessarily going to help your podcast or your show or anything like that unless your parents are really into your stuff
14:15
Of course, but probably not but you know and what we do is like look
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This is not like a mass email to these groups like spend an hour you know or two this week on this friend group texting them and like
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Make it like way personal like a voice message like
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Devon I know it's been a couple months since I was on your podcast
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But I finally, you know got back in the saddle myself and I actually think you'll enjoy this because blank
14:45
You know what I'm saying, you know, whatever it is and you might actually hate it
14:48
That's fine too like I'm down for the feedback
14:50
But I at least wanted to tell you about it. I'm going to text you a link with it on the day
14:55
It's release of your good with that like how many people are sending a customized message like that too
14:59
Oh, yeah, how many yeah as many as it takes man
15:03
Like I mean as many as you're willing and that's kind of what I see
15:05
I know that sounds like insane and old school
15:07
But these are people you know so it's not the same feel as like if you're like cold calling people for right
15:14
Become clients of your agency. So it's like okay. I see and we had a launch with
15:20
Gentlemen local here in Wilmington and he was like pretty on it and he had a fantastic launch
15:27
Like it was just like he was so so happy at how much support he got now
15:31
I always have to mentally prepare people for the drop-off because it's like cool. I we supported you
15:36
Sure people are like in our part
15:38
But if there's something good enough then obviously those people would be like hey you got to check this out
15:43
You know, and that's all you're hoping to do so word amount is still very much a part of it
15:49
I would say and then as far as like the rest. It's true. I mean, it's true about YouTube
15:54
Discovery is like in the high 60s and on YouTube versus I mean a door a tower is over a Spotify and Apple and I think O'Lean
16:03
I don't know if we talked about this before but like no one's scrolling on Apple and be like I hope I find a good podcast
16:10
Yeah, never once I've never ever done that never ever so so like
16:15
You know what I mean? That's why it's word amount though Devon because like people
16:19
It's never a mistake when someone types in your name to go to a podcast like it's super intentional
16:23
So you got to cover your bases in a lot of ways
16:26
But I do believe that personal touch might lead to more word amount. That's a belief
16:30
I can only substantiated in a couple instances
16:32
But the other people I've kind of suggested this specific launch plan. They just really didn't they didn't do it
16:38
They didn't do a lot of that work, so when people come to you as a client and they say hey help me launch this podcast
16:44
Do you think that they're mostly well equipped to for for the for the journey?
16:48
Like I feel like it's a pretty long road to success to people realize that do you have to convince them like
16:54
Hey, this is gonna take X number of episodes before anything really substantial starts to happen
17:00
Or are you the secret sauce that gets them success sooner?
17:03
I would actually like to kick that question back to you
17:05
I'd love to know what you say because I know in your world
17:08
Expectations are ridiculously high and people get super emotional and and they have conviction and charisma and they're ready
17:16
And then like next thing you know you probably waiting on them to have recorded something and you're like hey
17:20
Like come on like send me that thing
17:21
So I'd like to hear you're take first and of course I'll go but like I know it's super tough in your industry
17:27
Yeah, I mean there's this guy named Caleb Ralston who's kind of emerging as the top strategist in the space right now
17:32
Yeah, he's a good friend. He recently put out. Oh, you like him. You know him. Okay cool cool
17:35
Yeah, he recently said on a podcast that you have to have I think 36 months of a runtime without any dollar
17:43
Expectation coming back. That's definitely longer than I expected. That's insanely long. Yes
17:50
I mean, I guess if you have your your benchmarks that that far out success is pretty likely if you're able to stick it out for that long. Yes
17:57
Uh
17:59
It's tough though because like mr. Beast also says make a hundred videos and then if you still stink or you don't like it anymore
18:04
Then you can quit making a hundred videos and getting one percent better every single video is really really challenging and hell
18:10
Yeah, I don't know people realize that when they first get involved
18:13
I think people see the success of someone they admire and they say I can just do that myself
18:17
Yes, and then they make eight or nine videos and they're like well
18:21
The algorithm did this to me. Oh, yeah, not me. I made great content
18:27
So I would fall into that camp like of like
18:31
I gave it a really good push and then I just stopped and the next year I'm like no seriously
18:35
This year
18:37
You know, and I'm like if this is sucks um
18:41
I think it's the same way in podcasting. I think people underestimate the amount of
18:45
time and actual effort it takes like even and we do a lot of done for you everything
18:50
But like I can't record it for you and I can't write the episode for you
18:54
And if I do I'm just gonna have to be transparent and be like I just put this thing in clawed or chat gpt
18:59
Based off our transcript and here you go, you know, which no one wants to hear
19:04
So I think the same on the YouTube side or whatever
19:07
It's like you just have to really really really pay attention to the platform and do a lot more
19:13
I would say examining of like what's working? Why it's working? Why it's not or what why this thumbnail took off or why that why people are dropping off
19:23
All the time in this particular part of the podcast or whatever so
19:28
The returns are outsized though for sure like I mean, I don't know anyone who's done it for like two plus years
19:33
That we've worked with that has not seen significant change and like I have some guys in Cincinnati right now
19:40
Who did a year they were cold man like cold cold meaning like no social no nothing and we do it all for them and I was like
19:47
Like every month. I'm like this is probably the month
19:51
You know like that they're gonna be like it's been awesome, you know, but uh no yeah
19:56
And they weren't very much on
19:58
Okay with the fact that it was brand awareness at the end of the year
20:02
We looked at everything. I'm like you guys should just really just start having
20:06
Potential clients on your show
20:08
And making this a client acquisition machine
20:11
Because I think you're now well positioned even though like you know the numbers necessarily weren't there like people know about you guys now
20:18
You've been getting DMs you've been at a couple conferences you promoted the podcast like
20:22
You don't have a podcast named what yours is uh, you know unless like you're a true expert and willing to like position yourself like that
20:29
So why don't you have people other experts on
20:33
especially with um bigger brands that they work with
20:37
A lot of brands in the food and beverage industry that you can't necessarily usually get to
20:43
and
20:45
Five weeks into it. They're like we close three people
20:48
Like these are like dream clients and I'm like right so it was the platform
20:54
It was the sharing of the expertise. It was a fact that I mean
20:58
I have to take a little bit of credit here like we try and provide a really really good guest experience
21:03
You know what I mean like stay in touch with them let them know when it's coming out on the day of getting them links
21:07
sending them files that they could already use and they're just like whoa
21:11
You know, so like
21:13
There's that you know, you can but it's the bottom line is here's the true true litmus test
21:19
This is our kind of our new
21:20
Our new qualifier for discovery calls like
21:25
Do you do you like to teach because we usually work with people in business who like to educate like
21:30
Do you like to teach and are you like really emphatic about making sure
21:34
You know like so and so your ideal listener or viewer gets that information because if so you're you're probably less likely to quit
21:42
You you through the repetitions of content will discover what people actually want
21:46
I'm like you could just make those kind of like mini pivots as long as it's still under the same umbrella of
21:51
Business or whatever the subject matter is
21:53
If you do that then that's cool
21:54
But like if you're if it's like a podcast by proxy meaning like
21:58
Olena's like hey mark you should start a podcast and it was never on his mind like nine times out of ten
22:03
It doesn't work because it's not your idea. You're just like I guess I got to have more this has part of my marketing arm
22:11
You know, and it's just like do fuck that. It's just it's no one likes that
22:15
It does never end well. Is there like a threshold of numbers that you speak to new clients about saying hey
22:21
You got to make at least this many numbers before you give up on me or something like that or you you gauge like
22:26
Hey, are you ready to make this many episodes before you really see any kind of return?
22:30
I like to say I like to talk I try and talk people out of podcasting
22:36
When they come to us and I say everything is working against you. You know what I mean like
22:41
This this this this this and then like I just like watch like
22:45
Sometimes I watch their face go from like
22:48
Dang to like I could do that though
22:51
And then some who are just like I'm so glad I'm
22:54
Decided to talk to you because I'm definitely not starting a podcast. Right. Oh
22:59
Um
23:00
Once that's clear
23:01
I would say I always try and manage expectations be like
23:05
Like nothing might happen for this long and like I want to know if you're gonna be comfortable knowing that like this episode
23:11
That you work so hard on got like 35 listens or downloads and that doesn't even mean that people listen to those 35
23:17
But like over time this is how things would look and and we try and go for 10 to 15% month over month growth in terms of downloads
23:24
But you know, we look at everything else consumption and all that kind of stuff and
23:28
We just do what we do, but I mean I make zero um, I put
23:34
No time and trying to glaze over how crappy you could be
23:38
I just give out. I'm like here it is. Yeah, and sometimes that works perfectly for for me to identify who we don't want to work with and then who we do
23:47
I've had similar conversations with like cousins of mine who are like oh, I think I'm gonna be an Instagram influencer
23:52
And I'm like okay, are you ready to make it your full-time job?
23:55
Yeah, say no to going out on weekends because you need to edit a video that needs to go live on Monday
24:00
Yes, and I like oh wait, that's what it looks like. I'm like brutal. It's unless you're a Kardashian
24:06
How often do you change your strategy?
24:10
So
24:11
Tom Bill you
24:13
You know had this thing a few years ago that I
24:17
Listen to and I tried to adopt as good as possible called the physics of progress and basically
24:22
It's like a fancy way of just talking about isolating variables like you could never be
24:27
You can never be trying to correct two variables at once like you have to focus on one
24:34
Now the three of us know that like if we're working with clients that's
24:38
Damn near impossible like no one is gonna be like okay like we'll only think about consumption for the next six months
24:45
You know and like I mean a truly good sample size
24:49
Or we'll truly just focus on titles and SEO and whatever which is
24:53
Ridiculously hard to kind of manage anyway
24:56
so
24:57
changes
24:58
And in strategy are I would say few and far between because like I just like to conduct as much data as possible
25:06
So like we just had a client who hit episode
25:10
29
25:11
But like we're waiting for it to be
25:13
to get to
25:15
The end of that week so that way the 25 episodes that we've done we have 30 day data on all of them
25:21
That's a good sample size 50s better. I almost gave up on a podcast. I had a few years
25:27
I mean I eventually stopped because of something else but like at 50 something
25:31
I was like ready to be like it's over like this and then I landed like these three mammoth guests and I was just like
25:38
Okay, like that wouldn't have happened if I didn't
25:41
Demonstrate to some of these people the consistency
25:44
So like that's part of it as well like you got a factor that and like people are gonna take you more seriously
25:48
If you've been consistent and you might get that guess that's harder to reach because they know how often people quit podcasts
25:54
So in terms of strategy though to be a little bit more clear because I felt like I skirted that a little bit. It's like not often
26:02
You just can't like you just can't like I'm more I'm more on the side of
26:08
Do you feel like you're a better host than you were two months ago?
26:12
Do you feel like your transitions are better? Do you feel like you asked better questions?
26:15
Do you feel like you're down to research? Do you feel the same nerve that you had
26:20
blah blah blah, you know whatever like that's to me like the critical
26:25
underrated no one talks about
26:26
Intangible that could definitely mean the difference between success and no success because I think when it comes to strategy like
26:33
Well, there's no one I know that's an expert in this industry that's saying something massively freaking different
26:40
Like when it comes to like the tactics of podcasting and the strategy. It's like all right
26:44
Like you could always say it depends on the client, you know
26:47
But other than that like all the stuff's the same. We all have access to the same information data
26:52
And can make the same kind of like
26:54
I don't know hypotheses so to speak so I would say there's just not a lot
26:58
It just truly comes down to the person Alina and I think the most important part is like if they truly enjoyed creating
27:06
Those people
27:08
Usually have the best opportunities and they weren't actually seeking them as much
27:13
It's just I don't know that's been the experience I've seen. It sounds like it's not about
27:18
Changing your strategy. It's just improving. Yeah, I I really think that's it
27:24
I really think that's it. If I were going to give you a ridiculously corny fitness analogy
27:29
For example like a few months ago like I switched to like doing total body, you know like you know
27:35
During the week instead of doing legs one day and arm and back one day like I just got tired of it
27:41
So it's like I'm I'm improving and the overall strategies
27:45
It's slightly different, you know, but like at the end of the week all the same things were worked out
27:50
Some some just a little bit more than others and it's just like that that to me makes it so much more sustainable
27:56
I actually look forward to it now and I'm like cool
27:59
Like I don't have to do a whole day of stupid legwork like no one wants to do that
28:04
But if it's like here and then next day a little bit and whatever it's like oh, I could do this
28:09
So yeah, I think it's it's the past improvement
28:12
And if they're not energized about that improvement, then that's obviously a tell as well
28:15
There's no strategy that needs to be had you just need to hang up, you know hang up the mic
28:21
Gosh
28:23
Does this change when you're working with like a bigger creator like like Chris for example bigger creators
28:30
Pay attention so much more than like mid-level creators. They're so
28:36
So so hungry for the audience
28:39
Because they just realized at scale like what that could do for them like if they were able to reach this many people
28:46
And the last few years doing xyz and then they look at a podcast and they put that into the fold
28:51
They'll look at it super heavily, but they're looking at everything heavily. They'll notice things like
28:57
How many dms they're getting per day, you know like some of these people with millions of followers
29:01
But like they could keep track and be like whoa like that wasn't that great
29:05
You know, but they're looking at all the things like they're thinking about hooks. They're thinking about
29:10
Opportunities. They're they're just always always thinking about it
29:14
I guess is the best way to answer that question
29:16
I'm just like a totally different level than like someone like me is just like
29:21
Trying to like make sure I put something out like a couple times a week, you know, so I would say they pay attention
29:27
Just in a hole. There's a thing Ali Abdul says get going then get good and that seems to be kind of like a good message for this
29:34
This episode right now because
29:36
When you're talking about these big creators, you know, they're focused on getting good
29:41
But I think a lot of the time it's really just about getting going where this episode 39 for us
29:46
Yeah, you know that feels like a long time
29:48
But it's still actually not a long time you look at the number of episodes that any popular podcast has there often
29:53
400 500 episodes. Yeah, so we are really just getting started
29:57
And then once we do get you know a number of episodes under our belt we can kind of
30:02
Finest little tiny details here and there for me is if I show up and say a few words. That's a win
30:09
Yeah, Alina
30:11
Alina you got so much value to share honestly and
30:15
If this were just a normal conversation and it wasn't being recorded
30:17
We may have a different tone and vibe and cadence and we'd be talking about silly things and laughing and then
30:23
Yes
30:24
What the heck is this about feet you guys have been talking about feet picks and all these other kind of things
30:32
Joking with her that I was having a bad month revenue wise. I think or something like that and I said like
30:36
It's probably time to start considering feet picks and I think she thought I was serious actually
30:41
I'll still let her believe that you know
30:43
There's a possibility I am doing that on the side. But Alina here's how you can get how how you can
30:49
Not get shy when
30:52
It starts recording is like just Devon just start recording before we're actually recording
30:58
Like I always find that to be the best and I'll tell you for sure. Oh my gosh, especially with Chris
31:04
Like as soon as we're done recording the other person usually is like
31:08
Yes, I know exactly what you're gonna say. You know, I'm saying like deflated and less
31:14
Perform me and less like I'm on a podcast right now like and and then I'm like that's in a
31:19
I always that's the moment that like is the best part of the whole podcast
31:23
Stop recording. Yeah, it's just weird man
31:28
But yeah, so it literally happened when Chris was doing the episode with Mark. Yeah, we like we shut off the camera
31:36
And then like the real talk started happening
31:39
And he was just like why did we turn off the mics? Yeah, yeah, I mean after top like so Chris and Tom
31:45
Bill you had a podcast a few months ago or you know at the beginning of the year
31:50
I think and you know we're there and it's going super well
31:54
But then like the end is like so good like they started geeking out on like
31:59
Anime and comic books and stuff and like like maybe that's not appealing to the listener
32:04
But it was just kind of like there was a little bit of a veil that was removed at least for Tom
32:08
I could tell like you know, I could just tell and and that's
32:13
I just think that's so important that
32:16
If there's anything I can encourage podcasters out there to do it's like I always say to just research as much as you can because it will literally never fail you
32:24
And part of that probably includes to seeing like some of the podcast your guests might have been on in the last six months
32:30
And avoid at all costs the questions everyone else has already asked them because then it's just gonna come across the same as everyone else
32:36
Like you're literally not providing any value
32:38
To them as a guest like you're just asking them what they know to say so instead
32:44
It's like look for like the the threads that no one really pulled on because they were so focused on getting the next question
32:50
You know and if I wish I could give an example
32:53
I love when Sean Evans does that on hot ones or like Nardwar are you familiar with Nardwar?
32:58
They just pull questions out in Nardwar make the guests feel so impressed. Yeah, Nardwar is great. He is like
33:04
Oh, yeah dude like he's like so up there
33:07
He I live for the reactions
33:11
That people have when they see how far he's gone into it. There's another guy his name is Kevin McCarthy
33:16
I pitched him to do his podcast
33:18
He is a interview celebrities and he's a movie geek and I have seen so many times on his Instagram where like
33:25
Anne Hathaway or Brad Pitt or someone's like that was such a good question
33:30
And you know they meant it or like you could see they're wrapping up the interview
33:34
And they and because it's like a press I guess junk it is what they call you know
33:37
They're just like going through people and they're like no no no this guy gets a few more minutes
33:41
And I'm like right right because the research will never fail you man
33:45
It's like dude people want to talk about new and different things not just what they're always asked about so
33:51
Yeah, I think I think that is probably
33:55
Going to be one of the most it is the the biggest way to differentiate yourself
34:00
And I mean I've actually to the point where you could even send some questions in advance and just it's risky
34:06
You know what I mean like but you could send some like they could just make content with those
34:09
But you could be like here's like where I'm trying to go
34:13
Not here and they might be like let's do this thing
34:17
That's interesting like putting out some really clever questions as like a cold outreach to try and rope someone into coming on your show
34:22
That it is above your your your weight class. Yeah, that's cool very nice. It's very effective
34:30
Yeah, right cool
34:32
Who is doing something unique and cool in your space that you admire?
34:37
I actually think it's it's she's very very very well known already
34:41
But I think Mel Robbins is approaching her podcast really really well
34:46
And I actually was just with her head of social media the other day
34:49
He's a he's a friend of mine and you know, he was kind of talking to me about some of the things now look like
34:54
I understand people like her have teams and have access and their own studio and they can fly guests out and all those things
35:01
But like one thing that he mentioned that I absolutely notice when I listen to her from time to time is
35:08
she's
35:09
Absolutely
35:11
Obsessive about distilling the information down to who she knows her listeners are
35:16
So she won't let like a neuroscientist get away with like something super awesome and clever and useful without like
35:23
Really being like this is for rich who you know is a retired marine not the brightest, you know
35:29
You know light on the stand or whatever like
35:32
Talk to him, you know like she'll say that but for her woman right and who are obviously make up her audience
35:38
And I think that is the best thing you can do to have like true true fans
35:44
You know like she just demonstrates always that she's thinking about them
35:49
It's never just about getting through the interview. It's never about the next question
35:53
Yes, of course. She's looking for good knowledge and then she also
35:56
Will put herself in those situations like well if I was doing that like
36:01
There's ten, you know, there's
36:04
Nine times out of ten. I wouldn't do blank blank blank, you know
36:07
And probably some of that's totally legitimate and probably some of that is like what her people would say as well
36:13
And you could just imagine them like nodding or listening and be like oh my gosh
36:16
So I think that's not anything super crazy, but I just don't think enough podcasters do that
36:23
It's really hard to get kind of crazy with podcasts so to speak like how how
36:27
You don't know a podcast that has gone viral so to speak
36:30
You know, maybe maybe recently the Taylor Swift on new heights, but like you know, that's different
36:36
A seller sure to show but yeah, it's really hard to stand out
36:39
So I think you know just creating an amazing guest experience and just like always always always always paying attention to your listener
36:48
Like in some way shape or form acknowledging them is like probably the smartest thing you could do
36:54
We did a deep dive on Mel Robbins one time and I was just so impressed with
36:58
The way that she describes herself like the way that she speaks to her audience is very similar to what you just described
37:04
Yeah, it's like she says hey, it's your friend Mel Robbins and she acknowledges the listener you are probably feeling this way
37:09
You are probably feeling this way that was like two of the key takeaways was just
37:13
It made it like the parasocial relationship between her and her listeners are so obvious
37:17
She knows who they are so well totally
37:21
So yeah, I think that is what sticks out the most to me
37:25
For sure nice because it's it's study the grades study the grades. She's one of them. Yeah
37:30
Very cool rich. Thank you so much for being on the show
37:32
I will now do the noble task of stopping the recording which will probably prompt an incredible conversation immediately after
37:40
Uh, thank you so much for coming on and good luck with your new feet picks business with
37:47
Yes, yes, only feet. Appreciate you guys only feet